Thrustpads [Jump Pads]

[ringring]

I don't agree(mostly), because I think squad spawn is needed, BUT : however bad it is for you with squad spawning, jump pads increase the pace even more. There has to be a limit somewhere to the things done to increase the pace but thus far I think they haven't found it or restrained themselves...
The last I heard was that squad spawning is:
-limited to happen outside bases (probably means outdoors)
-the spawnee descends in a drop pod
-has a cool down.

I thought it was intended for those occasions when you log on, join your squad and then want to quickly go to where they're fighting, rather than pulling an aircradt and flying there.

[Stardouser]

The last I heard was that squad spawning is:
-limited to happen outside bases (probably means outdoors)
-the spawnee descends in a drop pod
-has a cool down.

I thought it was intended for those occasions when you log on, join your squad and then want to quickly go to where they're fighting, rather than pulling an aircradt and flying there.

All bad decisions I think. Shouldn't be prevented indoors, no drop pod, just spawn by the leader, and the cooldown should be standard 15 second respawn.

Of course you might say, but these speed up game play...and they do, but they are offset by the size of the gameworld. But then we have the jump pad problem, large world + unrestricted squad spawning = perfect, but add jump pads and it's too fast.

[Stardouser]

How would it be "too fast"? I'm asking because I have no idea how you gauge this. It seems you're just guessing something intuitively.

That's all anyone can do, at this point. It's either that or say nothing except "omg where is beta".

But anyway, I believe that as long as you can only spawn on the squad leader, he will feel the pressure to stay back a bit(creating juuuust a bit of run time after each respawn) to stay alive. And jump pads, or god forbid that there be something like jump pads but intended for the wide open areas between bases, take us beyond that.

[Stardouser]

I didn't say they were directly related, I am talking about squad spawning because the conversation turned to the possibility that it makes the game too fast, but it doesn't(PROVIDED it's squad leader only spawn), while jump pads do. Of course the saving grace of jump pads is that they are base only(though I won't be surprised to see them elsewhere).

[Stardouser]

I conclude that having the ability to catapult yourself 100 meters quickly increases the game pace too much, at least at base fights. The same conclusion that I've had since we learned of them.

[MrKWalmsley]

I'm asking you how you reached that conclusion, not to repeat what you've already said in different phrasing.

He repeated what he said with different phrasing because you did not understand the point. He was not connecting SL spawning to jump pads, he was rounding off his opinion of SL spawning and then brought the conversation back to jump pads.

That's why he said "AND jump pads" as in "AND another thing!"

Although if I am wrong please correct me Stardouser.

[Chrispin]

Oh oh! Hackers should be able to disable jump-pads which would help cripple defences

Great idea!

[SKYeXile]

Everyone is selective? I want the physics to be as realistic as physically possible. That is being as general as you can get. Although I am mentally capable of putting up with necessary non-realistic physics, so long as it is necessary, and in my opinion, jump pads are not a necessity.

Besides, that whole physics rant was not supposed to be an argument, it was just mocking the fact that he said:
"physics can go fuck itself."
So if anything, you should have said:
"Stop with the appeal to ridicule"

But since I was not trying to debase his argument (since "physics can go fuck itself" isn't an argument) it cannot even be called that.

Plus I did not define arcade shooter, I was basing that off of SKYeXile's seeming acceptance of the definition being CoD, and BF, which equally have ridiculous physics (as was mentioned in the comment he was replying to). Whatever you want to call a game that throw physics out of the window to the point where it is noticeable to your average person, throw that in its place. Halo is the most prominent of which that I would bring up.

Sorry i should have made my standpoint more clear for the internet. Physics, COD and BF can ALL go fuck themselfs and other tactical shooters alike. You might define COD and BF as arcade shooters, any of us who have played oldscool arcade or arena shooters like Unreal and Quake dont.

Unreal and quake are not bound by physics or an IP, they make their own rules, they dont have to have their guns shoot 850 rounds per min when every other gun shoots 700, just because thats what its like in real life.

You muppets can continue to break down myposts with your straw man arguments"oh you don't like physics what about fall damage or collision"...you're the ones been silly now because you have no real argument. oh yes, and im well aware "physics, COD and BF can ALL go fuck themselfs" isn't an argument. to clarify My argument is, Games dont have to be real or simulators, if whats ingame achieves balance, works in the game world then i dont particularly care about what Newton has to say about it.

oh yes, before you all breakdown my definition of arcade shooter and take my post totally out of context where i somewhere said cod and BF are arcade shooters...really? We obviously dont want 32 people running around picking up health packs and weapons around a map and bouncing off walls, what we do however want it balanced gun and gameplay, thats easy to learn and hard to master in a persistent world.

Also before you respond, this thread needs your attention:

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=36472

THERE'S NO VEHICLE ANIMATIONS GUYS. HOW WILL WE GET INSIDE?!?!

[Talek Krell]

My argument is, Games dont have to be real or simulators, if whats ingame achieves balance, works in the game world then i dont particularly care about what Newton has to say about it.If you don't care either way then please stop complaining.

[Sledgecrushr]

The jump pads look like a ton of fun.

[Xyntech]

Everyone is selective? I want the physics to be as realistic as physically possible.

Possible is subjective. Possible based on current hardware limitations? Possible based on still being viably playable (not having to press a seperate button every time you want to take a left step or a right step for example)?

Here's another one for you. "As realistic as is fun." That's even more subjective than what is "possible," but still just as valid, and really just as simple of an idea.

The point being, stop with the strawman arguments. These threads get carried away enough as it is with all of the heated opinions, even when everyone uses well reasoned arguments. Provide your own opinions as much as you want, but at least try to focus on the facts when rebutting someone.

I wont disagree with you that jump pads are more unrealistic than a lot of the shit in PS2, but given how much unrealistic stuff there is (PS2 clearly being a long ways away from some kind of ARMA style simulator), jump pads really aren't that large a divergence from the rest of the game.

Some people argue that they dislike the aesthetic, other people argue for or against the raw gameplay ramifications. There is validity to all of these opinions.

You just deflate your own entire argument and position when you try to argue that it's just ripping off other games to be popular, or put words in another persons mouth. That's just useless inflammatory bullshit, often used to prop up a weak position.

[Vash02]

Jump pads would of been one of my straw man examples against an argument for making PS2 more arcade-like. :p

[MrKWalmsley]

Sorry i should have made my standpoint more clear for the internet. Physics, COD and BF can ALL go fuck themselfs and other tactical shooters alike. You might define COD and BF as arcade shooters, any of us who have played oldscool arcade or arena shooters like Unreal and Quake dont.

Unreal and quake are not bound by physics or an IP, they make their own rules, they dont have to have their guns shoot 850 rounds per min when every other gun shoots 700, just because thats what its like in real life.

You muppets can continue to break down myposts with your straw man arguments"oh you don't like physics what about fall damage or collision"...you're the ones been silly now because you have no real argument. oh yes, and im well aware "physics, COD and BF can ALL go fuck themselfs" isn't an argument. to clarify My argument is, Games dont have to be real or simulators, if whats ingame achieves balance, works in the game world then i dont particularly care about what Newton has to say about it.

oh yes, before you all breakdown my definition of arcade shooter and take my post totally out of context where i somewhere said cod and BF are arcade shooters...really? We obviously dont want 32 people running around picking up health packs and weapons around a map and bouncing off walls, what we do however want it balanced gun and gameplay, thats easy to learn and hard to master in a persistent world.

Also before you respond, this thread needs your attention:

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=36472

THERE'S NO VEHICLE ANIMATIONS GUYS. HOW WILL WE GET INSIDE?!?!

Wow, did you not even read the post you are replying to? I said clearly "I did not define arcade shooters" and yet you respond with "you may define arcade shooters as". I was using the term arcade shooter in the same way as the guy you were replying to used it simply for the fact that you did not question him about labelling those games arcade shooters, so I was going by a definition which you did not point out was incorrect. As I said in the comment you are replying to.

Also (as I said in the comment you are replying to, ONCE AGAIN!) my response to you was not an argument, it was ridicule of the fact you used such a blanket statement! So it cannot be a strawman argument! Learn your fallacies! If anything it would be (as I said in the comment you are replying to, AGAIN!) an appeal to ridicule, but since I was not making an argument it still does not even count as that.

Oh and don't worry, I don't need to take what you say out of context, you do a pretty good job of showing that you are incapable of understanding the comments you are replying to. Taking you out of context would be overkill. And good work responding to the actual point that I had in the same comment just after the joke about your "physics can go fuck itself" statement.

So to round it up, read the comment more than once before you decide to quote it, learn what fallacies you should be accusing me of and in future ignore the blatant joky part and respond to the meat of comments (rather than the other way round).

[MrKWalmsley]

Possible is subjective. Possible based on current hardware limitations? Possible based on still being viably playable (not having to press a seperate button every time you want to take a left step or a right step for example)?

Here's another one for you. "As realistic as is fun." That's even more subjective than what is "possible," but still just as valid, and really just as simple of an idea.

The point being, stop with the strawman arguments. These threads get carried away enough as it is with all of the heated opinions, even when everyone uses well reasoned arguments. Provide your own opinions as much as you want, but at least try to focus on the facts when rebutting someone.

I wont disagree with you that jump pads are more unrealistic than a lot of the shit in PS2, but given how much unrealistic stuff there is (PS2 clearly being a long ways away from some kind of ARMA style simulator), jump pads really aren't that large a divergence from the rest of the game.

Some people argue that they dislike the aesthetic, other people argue for or against the raw gameplay ramifications. There is validity to all of these opinions.

You just deflate your own entire argument and position when you try to argue that it's just ripping off other games to be popular, or put words in another persons mouth. That's just useless inflammatory bullshit, often used to prop up a weak position.

Yeah, great bit of obvious quote mining. Only encapsulating "Everyone is selective? I want the physics to be as realistic as physically possible." Really makes me sound ignorant doesn't it? That is until you read the rest of the paragraph:
"That is being as general as you can get. Although I am mentally capable of putting up with necessary non-realistic physics, so long as it is necessary, and in my opinion, jump pads are not a necessity."

So based on that blatant miss-representation of my comment we can clearly discard your first two paragraphs.

Now, as for your third point, explain exactly how a single thing in that comment you are replying to is strawmanning? In fact most of it was not even an argument but an explanation as to my original response, the only things you can really class as an argument is me correcting you on what fallacy you should be accusing me of, and that wasn't strawmanning. But please, get back to me with that explanation on where I was strawmanning and what I was strawmanning.

As for your forth, its unrealistic nature is not my main problem with it, as I explained a few comments down from the comment you are replying to. My main beef is its gameplay mechanics, not its physics, but I threw my opinion of its placement in lore anyway.

And your last paragraph, using your own words, was just inflammatory bullshit.

[SKYeXile]

Wow, did you not even read the post you are replying to? I said clearly "I did not define arcade shooters" and yet you respond with "you may define arcade shooters as". I was using the term arcade shooter in the same way as the guy you were replying to used it simply for the fact that you did not question him about labelling those games arcade shooters, so I was going by a definition which you did not point out was incorrect. As I said in the comment you are replying to.

Also (as I said in the comment you are replying to, ONCE AGAIN!) my response to you was not an argument, it was ridicule of the fact you used such a blanket statement! So it cannot be a strawman argument! Learn your fallacies! If anything it would be (as I said in the comment you are replying to, AGAIN!) an appeal to ridicule, but since I was not making an argument it still does not even count as that.

Oh and don't worry, I don't need to take what you say out of context, you do a pretty good job of showing that you are incapable of understanding the comments you are replying to. Taking you out of context would be overkill. And good work responding to the actual point that I had in the same comment just after the joke about your "physics can go fuck itself" statement.

So to round it up, read the comment more than once before you decide to quote it, learn what fallacies you should be accusing me of and in future ignore the blatant joky part and respond to the meat of comments (rather than the other way round).

Just because i quote a post does not mean all my comments at directed at the quote im quoting. Some obviously are, some are general statements, some are directed at multiple specific people and others maybe directed at people not including the post im quoting. Im afraid you're non the centre of the posting universe.

Oh yes, i dont particularly read fully posts by most of you, ill read what Xyntech, Elcyco, bags some people from HT or PCP have to say, afew others maybe, the rest, i dont really care that much, its why i don't give you the time of day to multi quote and reply directly to you. (Yes, this post is direct at you and AGAIN others.)

[Metalsheep]

I'm not a fan of the Jump Pads. They feel too out of place to me... Soldiers flying through the air doesnt give me a Planetside impression. The pads are eaither going to be camped, or if they're left uncamped, they'll let Defenders easily overwhelm attackers. Though why would they be uncamped? They had these things in Halo 3 and they were called Man Cannons. They werent in many maps, but the maps that had them, they werent used too much. As soon as you hit one, you get sniped midair or taken down by Aircraft.

Even if you make the propelled person move fast, a sniper can just set up in the direction the pas is lauching you and get free kills. Or aircav can just hover in the arc of the Thrust Pad and splatter you in midair.

They just don't seem right for Planetside in my eyes. The gravity lifts are acceptable, but the Jump Pads are not. I'd much prefer to see some other kind of fast travel method like a Teleporter, or even just walking to the towers. SoE seems to be trying sooo hard to cut out any kind of downtime that you arent eyeball deep in a firefight. Part of what made Planetside feel awesome was going out into the CourtYard and getting ready for the fight. Seeing all your teammates doing the same, then rolling out towards your target or setting up defenses and getting in position. Now we will just see soldiers flying through the air between towers in a setting that doesnt really fit the ManCannon concept to me.

Why bother making the bases so huge if youre just going to make it so that 50% of the players dont even have to take the time to travel through it?

[Xyntech]

Yeah, great bit of obvious quote mining. Only encapsulating "Everyone is selective? I want the physics to be as realistic as physically possible." Really makes me sound ignorant doesn't it? That is until you read the rest of the paragraph:
"That is being as general as you can get. Although I am mentally capable of putting up with necessary non-realistic physics, so long as it is necessary, and in my opinion, jump pads are not a necessity."

So based on that blatant miss-representation of my comment we can clearly discard your first two paragraphs.

Right. Good job with that.

My point was that what realism is possible and what realism is fun are largely subjective. I never said that jump pads were necessary. I was just pointing out that a player can still throw out large parts of reality in favor of fun, while still having a vested interest in keeping other elements of reality.

Your argument may have been better if you pointed out unrealistic stuff that was fun. You went for the ridiculous extreme and it wasn't a debate tactic that helped your cause at all in this instance.

As a future note, humor and sarcasm don't transfer well in text, so it's best to make a clear distinction between your actual points and your attempts at humor. You come off much more coherent that way.

And your last paragraph, using your own words, was just inflammatory bullshit.

Oh I don't mind inflammatory bullshit, I'm just reminding you know how useless inflammatory bullshit hurts your own arguments. A strong or weak argument will stand or fall on it's own, but being inflammatory for no reason is generally a good way to get people to ignore you all together.

You are a very odd person to have a conversation with. Entertaining though. Too bad this current line of discussion is so off topic and in danger of derailing the thread.

On topic, I disagree with comparing more old school arcade shooters like unreal and quake with modern pseudo realism shooters like COD and BF. Like em or dislike em, arena shooters tend to be some of the best when it comes to balance. While I'm a bit ambivalent about jump pads being in PS2, I do believe they can be well integrated into the balance of the game, if the devs know even remotely what they are doing (which they seem to).

I actually believe the same thing goes for some of the elements that PS2 does share with BF and COD, such as Aiming Down Sights. As long as non ADS accuracy isn't completely FUBAR'd, I believe it can be a valuable addition to the variety of the game. It just so happens that a lot of games have fucked ADS up and put too much of an emphasis on this. Blame goes to consoles, as many have noted.

As it stands, the aesthetic of Jump Pads is not very pleasing to me. I feel like they look out of place right now. The gameplay elements seem fine to me though. I believe they will fit in well with things like LA jump packs, giant MAX suits, cloaking suits, etc. Just another novel way to play the game.

I do want PS2 to be immersive, but that isn't my highest priority for the game. Most of all I want it to be fun (fun for me of course, I am biased), and secondly I want it to be successful. I feel like the jump pads will add to the fun and I don't agree that they would hurt its success.

[Ceska]

Why should I have to die to get to the other side of the base?

Not arguing in favor of jump-pads, but this seems like a very odd solution.

You didn't have to die in PS1 to use respawn tube, you could use it to deconstruct and respawn somewhere else

[Timealude]

At first I was a lil effy on them but Hamma says there arent that man per base so that makes me feel alot better.

[Trolltaxi]

Was it mentioned in the last 19 pages that jumppads should not fire each armour to the destination?

I see why they are implemented, but feels a bit off for me too. But I'd hate to crawl around if they weren't there. Facilities are huge.

But in my opinion these jumppads should not have enough momentum to kick all the armours to the destination.

- Infils - the lightest armour, should be flied to the next tower without problem. Travel time is around 3-5 seconds from jumppad to next jumppad.

- Light assault - they should be able to reach the next tower, but only using their jetpacks to finish the glide. Travel time 3-6 seconds, depletes jetpack.

- Medics and engies - should reach a mid level somewhere so they have to climb (or walk+enter the teleporting beam upwards) back. Travel time 10-12 secs.

- Rexo - Reaches the foot area of the destination. Has to climb up (first station of the teleporting beam should be a bit higher than ground level, like a gallery in the ground floor so people would have to walk a bit up there). Travel time 15-20 secs.

- MAX - jumppad gives a slight kick in the butt and the max flies somewhere 1/2 distance between towers. Travel time is more than 30 seconds.

[Xyntech]

- MAX - jumppad gives a slight kick in the butt and the max flies somewhere 1/2 distance between towers. Travel time is more than 30 seconds.

Not a terrible idea, except for the travel times. Gravity doesn't work that way. It would look horribly stupid if there was a MAX hanging in midair as it slowly fell in an arc from one tower to the ground half way towards the other tower.

Also, even if it did make any kind of sense, that would be terribly imbalanced to have a unit stuck in locked transit, exposed to players shooting at them, for any longer than a few seconds.

But having different ballistic arcs for each class is a pretty good idea, as long as all of the classes stayed in the air for relatively similar amounts of time, somewhere within the range of a few seconds tops.

[Sledgecrushr]

What troll is saying is that there would be variable travel times between towers depending on the troop type. Max would only get halfway to next tower amd would have to hoof it the rest of the way. I dont care for this solution since it would drop you into the open deathzone that is going to be between these towers. Imho the towers themselves being defensive redoubts are going to be a lot of fun playing on, and being able to shift reinforcements from nearby towers will be a neat dynamic. As the towers fall one by one the fighting should become even more intense. Damn I am looking forward to beta.

[Xyntech]

What troll is saying is that there would be variable travel times between towers depending on the troop type. Max would only get halfway to next tower amd would have to hoof it the rest of the way. I dont care for this solution since it would drop you into the open deathzone that is going to be between these towers. Imho the towers themselves being defensive redoubts are going to be a lot of fun playing on, and being able to shift reinforcements from nearby towers will be a neat dynamic. As the towers fall one by one the fighting should become even more intense. Damn I am looking forward to beta.

Duh, I'm a moron. Can't believe my brain tried to apply logic in the wrong direction.

My bad trolltaxi. Good idea period then (IMO). Maybe not the best solution, but a decent possibility none the less.

[Trolltaxi]

NP mate, and Sledge is right with the implementation. It would take 30 secs for a max to reach the next rooftop.

And about the mid-space being a deadzone... I think the attackers would feel pretty bad when maxes start to fall on their heads. They all focus on enering the tower when they get some heavy steel in their backs from above. Call it a defensive maxcrash! :)

[Fuse]

In a setting where jet packs are common place (and predictably would be used more than the other classes) walls really do become obsolete. And before you claim that the walls would keep vehicles out then remember that the space inside the base is so compact that it is practically urban combat and any tank driver with a bit of sense would think twice before driving in such a small space while absolutely surrounded by high attack points whilst in an enemy base chocker-block with enemy soldiers.

The average wall around a modern military base is a wire fence, designed purely to keep people out, not vehicles. And even camp bastion with its piles of sand filled blocks for walls is only designed to keep out cars, and wouldn't stand a chance against a tank whacking into it. So basically in such a tight space where vehicles are vulnerable and ineffective anyway the only real use for a wall is to keep out infantry, and in a setting where your average soldier has the capability to quickly and effortlessly fly over the wall they become useless as a defence mechanism.

Walls block direct fire from armor and force combatants in to defensible choke points. That has not changed because one class gets jetpacks.

Also, how many tanks do you think "insurgents" have? Our modern military is not fighting a traditional war. You really can't compare a military base in Afghanistan to one in PlanetSide.

Personally, I think we wait till beta to see, but I don't see why the pads can't work. The fact that you are vulnerable is the trade-off for moving so fast. I like them much more than the zip-lines from Core Combat. The only concern I have is I feel there needs to be a mechanic to stop people from just jumping back and forth between two towers firing explosives below. Maybe they'll be slow enough that it would be too easy to pick someone off if they try to cross twice without heals/repairs, I don't know yet.

[Duddy]

The only concern I have is I feel there needs to be a mechanic to stop people from just jumping back and forth between two towers firing explosives below. Maybe they'll be slow enough that it would be too easy to pick someone off if they try to cross twice without heals/repairs, I don't know yet.

Well you could do something boring such as putting in a cool down on the player after using one, though that may be contrary to the idea altogether.

Or you could do something entertaining such as applying a significant damage taken debuff while airborne! :lol: At the very least that would introduce some risk into using it.

[Fuse]

Well you could do something boring such as putting in a cool down on the player after using one, though that may be contrary to the idea altogether.

Aye, that's the best I've come up with so far. There has to be a more elegant solution, doesn't there?

[Mechzz]

Aye, that's the best I've come up with so far. There has to be a more elegant solution, doesn't there?

I hope the Devs go with the idea that only some bases have them. That way they won't be a constant irritant to those who hate them but they will be there to break up the game a bit and give some variety. With the walls tweeted by T-Ray I now think there is a lot we haven't seen yet and we will be blown away by the E3 reveal. Cannae wait!

[ArcIyte]

If the bases need silly jump pads, then perhaps the bases are just too large.

Or, give the defenders some kind of underground tunnels to each of the battlements. Have it stem from one of the innermost buildings, so it's a high priority target for invaders to stop guys from getting on the walls.

Really though, anything is better than ridiculous Quake jump pads throwing soldiers in the air during a fight.

[Thomas]

Jump Pads are going to be great. Looking forward to them.

Hey, atleast they're NOTHING like Battlefield or CoD!

[Fuse]

Hey, atleast they're NOTHING like Battlefield

Battlefield 3 - Tank Launching++ - YouTube

[Mechzz]

^
roflsnort as someone so eloquently put it. I even muted the audio as they said I would. Genius! I had tears streaming down my face from the point where they fired the guy at the stairs. Who needs lift pads when you can just launch peeps into the stairwell?

Oh, and will this be limited to the Vanny in PS2? Makes my growing itch to switch to NC all the harder to resist.

Seriously though, I wonder if Forgelight will lend itself to similar fun?