Hotdropping [Archive] - PlanetSide Universe

Baneblade

2012-05-20, 01:38 PM

In PS1 hotdropping was a big deal. In the beginning, hotdropping from a Galaxy was common, but by the advent of Surgile (in part due to) pilot hotdroppers were standard fare. The question remains, how should it work in PS2?

Obviously there has to be some sort of descent control system, but do we want it to work like in PS1?

Hotdropping from a Galaxy could work a number of ways, HALO style, Paratrooper style, or even Huey Style (Vietnam).

The HALO style was what a lot of Gal hotdrops went for in PS1, flying at max altitude and vector dropping over a base, sometimes hover dropping.

Paratrooper style was a little more specialized, but largely more effective due to less warning: Galaxy would fly 'under the radar' until target zone, and then afterburn at over the drop zone. Required attention and planning to pull off effectively.

Huey style was mostly used to move troops in a secure drop zone. The Gal pilot would pick up a load at an AMS and then hover directly over the roof to drop onto it. Common for tower battles involving a protracted engagement.

Pilot hotdropping became something of a division in the community of PS1. On one side you had the elite One Man Army types who worked alone, in groups, or in conjunction with 'distracting units' as, I think it was anyway, Dreamer once put it. on the other side, you had the traditional small unit tactics proponents who saw pilot hotdropping surgiles as a bane on PS1.

Now PS2 could still go either way on this, there hasn't been much dev discussion on it.

I personally want pilot bailing limited to a damage threshold, as I liked to say for PS1:

Pilots shouldn't be allowed to bail until the bailing mechanism has a chance to fail.

Basically referring to pilot bailing having a chance to fail when a certain amount of damage is taken.

Bags

2012-05-20, 01:46 PM

I like it in PS1 for mossie and galaxy.

Atheosim

2012-05-20, 01:49 PM

I think that it's been stated that there will/might be a sidegrade that allows hotdropping. Of course, as a sidegrade, you would need to forgo some other valuable option.

captainkapautz

2012-05-20, 01:54 PM

My post from the falldamage-thread is pretty much what i think about bailing.

I gotta admit, I think that was one of the less stellar features of PS1 (the "bailures"), BUT don't misunderstand me.
Aircraft specialized in transport/airdrop, i.e. a gal, need to have something like that.
But others do not, atleast not from the get go.

Let the pilot cert ejectionseat or whatever you wanna call it, but don't make it a standard from the get go.

Baneblade

2012-05-20, 01:58 PM

All forms of hotdropping should follow some rules, for instance no straight down dropping as if from a stationary vehicle. If the vehicle is moving at 120 km, so should the hotdropper when 'launched'. They should slow down and eventually free fall if they have enough altitude to do so.

This would add skill to hotdroppers and dramatically the increase the chances of FUBAR, a valuable military RNG.

Raymac

2012-05-20, 02:03 PM

ringring

2012-05-20, 02:06 PM

I like it in PS1 for mossie and galaxy.

Me too. It was simple and it worked.

Newbies could make it work too. If you remember being a lowbie gal transport and gal drops were pretty much essential for the squad with limited BR.

IMMentat

2012-05-20, 02:16 PM

On momentum.
look at the night ops vid, even after bailing TB was alongside the still moving mossie for a good long time. Therre seems to be some degree of air control as they separated further into the fall (even with the non jetpack setup).

Rbstr

2012-05-20, 02:29 PM

I'd like it more helicopter-style as the base case.

Fly in quick with guns blazing to clear the drop zone, have people hop out right above ground/roof and get the Galaxy out of there. Think like Starwars Ep. 2 with the clones' assault transport thingys.
Then with a cert you could do the more standard parachute-style where you jump out way above the base.

I wouldn't mind some kind of drop-pod system that was different from pilot bailing mechanics.

Red Beard

2012-05-20, 11:15 PM

I'd like to see the Galaxy hotdrop remain the way it was in PS1. It was perfect. However, I'd like to see all other planes have a differnent bailing mechanic. Like I would want the pilot to fall much more slowly making him a sitting duck after bailing. While I admit I did it myself quite a bit, I'd rather not see the fighter aircraft being used as transports and effectively replacing the Galaxy as the transport vehicle of choice. I wouldn't even be against removing bailing from the fighters altogether.

From previous discussions, I thing the angle was allowing for bailing, but at the expense of less weaponry or something. If your vehicles cost (enough) resources, people aren't going to be jumping out of them for the hell of it anyways.

Timealude

2012-05-21, 02:20 AM

I like the idea of a H.A.D for the drop pod side grade for the galaxy, just for the fact that drop pods if launched right were the safest way to travel.

Graywolves

2012-05-21, 03:56 AM

I'd prefer a dropping system like in PS1 for the Galaxy.

It would be interesting if there were different bailing/dropping mechanisms for different aircraft. But I'd prefer to keep things simple.

Sabrak

2012-05-21, 05:35 AM

I'd like it more helicopter-style as the base case.

Fly in quick with guns blazing to clear the drop zone, have people hop out right above ground/roof and get the Galaxy out of there. Think like Starwars Ep. 2 with the clones' assault transport thingys.
Then with a cert you could do the more standard parachute-style where you jump out way above the base.

Ummm... That'd be pretty interesting.

Fit the gal with more armor and weapons, but for a lower speed and the need to land or hover just above the ground for people to hop out, or let them bail out from a faster but weaker (in armor and weapons) Galaxy.

I'd like that!

Karrade

2012-05-21, 05:43 AM

Galdrops especially in the beginning when people worked together more on mass, were some of the most fun parts of PS1. Definitely a feature to keep if ever there was one.

Incoming Galaxy!!! Was always a fun thing to be hearing over the base, especially if it was a certain group that had a rep for causing a lot of interesting things to happen ;).

Mastachief

2012-05-21, 05:49 AM

I like it in PS1 for mossie and galaxy.

This pretty much, it is a type of gameplay.

Removing it or limiting it in some way will only reduce combat options and further dumb the game down.

The galaxy is not really something i like to use, in the original game i left a good outfit due to their us of it as i preferred the faster more organised use of mossy's in my current outfit.

Baneblade

2012-05-21, 06:58 AM

This pretty much, it is a type of gameplay.

Removing it or limiting it in some way will only reduce combat options and further dumb the game down.

The galaxy is not really something i like to use, in the original game i left a good outfit due to their us of it as i preferred the faster more organised use of mossy's in my current outfit.

We can only hope PlanetSide 2 is 'dumbed down' enough to stop this particular trend.

SgtMAD

2012-05-21, 07:27 AM

We can only hope PlanetSide 2 is 'dumbed down' enough to stop this particular trend.
yea lets make the game for real dumb ppl that can't adapt, it worked out so well for PS1 so lets keep up that "nerf it, I don't like it or care to adapt" mentality.

this is the same crap that killed PS

can we atleast wait until Beta before you start crying about nerfing crap

Baneblade

2012-05-21, 12:07 PM

captainkapautz

2012-05-21, 01:02 PM

Rbstr

2012-05-21, 01:07 PM

Another thread where someone I've never heard of tries to make Planetside 2 more boring.

Bailing was fun and necessary. You shouldn't have to depend on some dude who happens to have Galaxy certed to be able to get on top of a tower or base roof. Besides, there's jetpacks anyway, so what's the difference?

Next topic please.

Why not require it? It's a team-based multiplayer game. It's built and balanced around the people next to you being able to do things you can't. No jump jets, no galaxy-buddy? Your dreams of being on the roof are SOL...except that it appears, according to recent video, that you can still jump out of airplanes to some extent.

Who the fuck cares if you've heard of someone? Nobody gives a shit about you. You joined a week ago.
Next douche-post, please.

Ale

2012-05-21, 01:54 PM

I didn't join a week ago (as if that matters) and I happen to agree with Elcyco.

The threads full of people who didn't fly asking that our favoured playstyle shouldn't be allowed get tiresome. Dropping 30 people from 30 planes on one roof isn't teamwork? Please...

If we can't jump out of planes, we'll just park them up there. It's a moot point.

Baneblade

2012-05-21, 02:05 PM

Raymac

2012-05-21, 02:09 PM

The problem wasn't that it was good to have more options i.e. using the mossie or the galaxy. The problem was that a mass mossie drop made galaxies all but obsolete. Considering that Galaxy drops (for many people) are the most memorable and quintessential "planetside" parts of the game, I'd prefer to see mechanics encourage that experience.
(FYI: I flew Reavers mainly, and focused mostly on rapid response, so I know all about this style of game play)

captainkapautz

2012-05-21, 02:12 PM

Sabrak

2012-05-21, 03:06 PM

Bailing was fun and necessary. You shouldn't have to depend on some dude who happens to have Galaxy certed to be able to get on top of a tower or base roof. Besides, there's jetpacks anyway, so what's the difference?

Sorry, but that's the most stupid arguement I've seen on this forums in a very long time.

If you don't want to need other people's skills to do stuff in the game, then play whatever solo FPS you want.

Planetside is and always will be about working with other players.
You cert in something, they cert in other things, and that makes a complete team. You're supposed to need other players in those games, even though there were one-man-armies in Planetside (which should be corrected by the class system).

I understand you don't want your playstyle to be cut out of Planetside 2, but to the contrary of HtSgtMAD, I think you are the guys who aren't able to adapt.
Get over it: air fighters are made for air superiority and air strikes.
Air transports are made to get your infantry's ass in the battle.
Not the other way around.

Oh, and by the way, your jetpacks arguement... Seriously?
Didn't you see how high you could get with those?
Did you compare that height with how tall buildings are in Planetside 2?
Don't be ridiculous...

SgtMAD

2012-05-21, 04:04 PM

Seriously?
Are you guys for real?

So gal drops were boring, dumb and only for derps?

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4849/18110369.jpg
YES, we used to call out XP Fountain on vent any time we saw a Gal coming.

I like the idea that a bunch of you are too naive to realize how useful mossie dropping was.

SgtMAD

2012-05-21, 04:32 PM

Atleast be honest about why you want your precious bailing.

It has fuckall to do with teamwork, it's just so you can keep killwhoring with your plane and when shit hits the fan bail and keep killwhoring on the ground.

Or is there another reason why suddenly requiring an actual team for teamwork is bad?

man , you are filled with mis-conceptions, you don't have a clue about the teamwork and discipline needed to get +40 guys all recalled and moved to the rally point within the 4 minute maximum,yea I mean real FPS players,not a bunch of RPG players that are used to everything going slow, twitch monkeys won't put up with that crap

I played this game for 7 out of the past 9 years,I took a few breaks over that time and I never ran around solo,I always had atleast one squad and usually it would turn into a full platoon within a day or two of resubbing so I have to laugh at your teamwork bullshit because you think everyone's game experience was exactly like yours,I never had a problem finding ppl to lead into battle

we had 70+ CR5's,everyone had their main char lvl'd up,pretty much have to hack and defend CC's to make that happen,which unlike the zerg meant we were actually in the CC or the area around it instead of outside TKing each other.

the old guys in Hostile takeover developed the hotdrop long before anyone else was doing it, shit we dropped on towers before ppl figured out they needed to CE the roof,we then added in surge and Ht was the first Hotdropping Surgile Outfit,kidRiot, BlackLabel and Wylde were the first,they started dropping in July '03 and the rest of Ht saw it and started joining in.

after Ht turned Surgile into a religion,we started seeing a huge influx of CR5's from other empires deleting their main chars and switching to NC to join us.Ht then saw players from Emmy starting to join us, guys like Dart,AdamPrater,NVSniper(johari)a couple of the guys in TRx and we had a deal with AC on Emmy where we would be able to join both outfits if we felt like it.

SOE did everything they could to slow us down,the drop animation, a rexo buff,cutting shotty ammo down to 16 in a box,the only nerf we couldn't fight was the crying on the forums by all the players crying about getting owned,they all cried about the game being too fast,they couldn't compete so that made it all unfair.

the funny thing is if you want to stop a surgile all you had to do was throw a jammer but it was easier to whine about nerfing it all instead.

the real comedy on PSU is all the ppl here that were the same ones crying for all the nerfs in PS,shit TB had over 10k posts and 90% of them were about nerfing shit in the game and yet you fools are all lining up to suck his dick

if you think I am full of it, go ahead and do some research,its all right here

http://web.archive.org/web/20040406131558/boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&BypassCookie=true

http://web.archive.org/web/20030801073949/http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&BypassCookie=true.

its not easy , you have to screw around with the page links but you can find all sorts of history in those forums.

captainkapautz

2012-05-21, 04:44 PM

You kinda proved my point.

Toppopia

2012-05-21, 05:13 PM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzXVHQXnWVg

This is what we need for galaxies, but imagine like 100 or people doing this. Pure awesomeness.

Mastachief

2012-05-21, 05:16 PM

The level of fail in this thread makes me worry what direction the game will be steered in once again.

It is not a question of what is better it is a matter of choice.

By the time these types of threads are done there will only be a single linear play style available.

3 ways in the current game to drop a:
/base roof
/front door
/backdoor
/vehicle bay
(or all of the above in case of the mass mossie drop)

in my order of preference:

Mossie drop
Lodestar + Sunderer/Leviathan (EMP + Armour ftw)
Gal

The mossie allowed you to create fear and confusion in your enemy (believe me 30 + mossies buzzing the base at a single moment creates fear and panic as the defenders try to figure out who dropped where)

Gals as already stated = xp sacks.

Mastachief

2012-05-21, 05:18 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzXVHQXnWVg

This is what we need for galaxies, but imagine like 10 or people doing this. Pure awesomeness.

I used to be part of the NCWA event team on werner we had 170 players drop from galaxies on a single base.

Raymac

2012-05-21, 05:39 PM

in my order of preference:

Mossie drop
Lodestar + Sunderer/Leviathan (EMP + Armour ftw)
Gal

The mossie allowed you to create fear and confusion in your enemy (believe me 30 + mossies buzzing the base at a single moment creates fear and panic as the defenders try to figure out who dropped where)

Gals as already stated = xp sacks.

And that's the only point I'm trying to make. The Gal drop is such a positive memory when people reminisce about Planetside, I personally believe that experience should be encouraged as much as possible.

Mossie drops absolutely required coordination (with the exception of the lone wolves solo dropping on a tower to farm kills), and the mossie drops were so effective that they basically replaced Galaxies. Now this might be less of an issue with Galaxies also being flying AMS's, but I personally think the game is more fun with more Galaxies in the air. So that's why I'd be in favor of some sort of bailing mechanic to support that.

Purple

2012-05-21, 05:42 PM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzXVHQXnWVg BF3 HALO Jump

This is what we need for galaxies, but imagine like 100 or people doing this. Pure awesomeness.

its already like that without parachutes.

Toppopia

2012-05-21, 05:44 PM

its already like that without parachutes.

But parachutes should be an option for the silent dropping in and activating it at the last moment to be as stealth as possible, while the energy field would be noisy and wouldn't look as cool.

So maybe a low level cert is required for parachutes but then a higher level cert would allow energy fields so that at you can still hot drop, just not with a special field, and the parachute lets you control where you land.

Mastachief

2012-05-21, 05:57 PM

So that's why I'd be in favor of some sort of bailing mechanic to support that.

Perhaps make it a cert that is partially up the air fighter cert tree to discourage every man and dog having it.

FPClark

2012-05-21, 07:09 PM

I cant believe the menial stuff people pick to complain about...lol

Raymac

2012-05-21, 07:36 PM

I cant believe the menial stuff people pick to complain about...lol

Dude, beta has been "soon" for about 6-7 months now. This menial stuff and the false hope that we actually make a difference is all we have to cling to at this point.

Mastachief

2012-05-21, 08:00 PM

I cant believe the menial stuff people pick to complain about...lol

And hotdropping is hardly a small matter :huh:

Blackwolf

2012-05-21, 08:08 PM

yea lets make the game for real dumb ppl that can't adapt, it worked out so well for PS1 so lets keep up that "nerf it, I don't like it or care to adapt" mentality.

this is the same crap that killed PS

can we atleast wait until Beta before you start crying about nerfing crap

Another thread where someone I've never heard of tries to make Planetside 2 more boring.

Bailing was fun and necessary. You shouldn't have to depend on some dude who happens to have Galaxy certed to be able to get on top of a tower or base roof. Besides, there's jetpacks anyway, so what's the difference?

Next topic please.

Seriously?
Are you guys for real?

So gal drops were boring, dumb and only for derps?

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4849/18110369.jpg

I just about died of laughter.

They weren't. Fortunately for me, that's not what I was arguing, and neither was SgtMad. If only your brain wasn't full of fuck, you could have come to this conclusion all by yourself.

Read what you two wrote, you basically said exactly that. Quit putting the fuck in his brains and maybe none of use will have a problem any more.

Jeebus people. Glad none of you are actual pilots. "I'm going to bail from a perfectly good 20 million dollar aircraft! I think the enemy will never see it coming and won't be able to adapt in time!".

Rambos were just annoying in general. I've pissed off a number of them because I had the balls to kill them apparently. Dreamer sent me a hate tell because I took his ass out in close quarters, my Lasher vs his JackHammer. Apparently jumping inside a base is cheating, because I avoid getting stuck on crates that way?

You "skillz" people should just get over yourselves. Team based game ought to be played as such. And frankly you guys just ruin the experience for everyone by charging into a room with a squad of 10 as if you were actually going to do anything useful.

captainkapautz

2012-05-21, 08:40 PM

Gotta say if you have 40 peeps, then 3 gals + air support would be a lot more effective in a base attack scenario than 40 mosquitos.

That is if you wanna do more then killwhore.

FPClark

2012-05-21, 10:28 PM

And hotdropping is hardly a small matter :huh:

No it's really not. In PS1 there wasnt a resource system so there was no "punishment" (Nor does there need to be) besides a timer for hotdroppers. Having to shell out for a vehicle in PS2 will make this a mute point.

My main point is (and this is directed at all people who complain about stuff in games) Unless someone is exploiting/hacking/ect there is nothing stopping you from doing what someone else is doing. The problem with most gamers today is they default to crying "OP" (wolf) at the drop of a hat instead of going "Oh thats clever I wonder how I can incorperate that into my gameplay style".

If someone wants to spend their resources on a flying vehicle to use it as quick solo transport thats up to them. Learn to adapt and counter that playstyle. Thats how REAL warfare works.

Try to adopt an "Adapt and overcome" mentality. It gives you 100% more satisfaction instead of trying to find all of the faults in the game that make you bad (when in reality for most people who complain a lot its not the games fault most of the time.)

Timealude

2012-05-21, 10:53 PM

Im Gonna have to agree with captain on this one. In PS2 The ES fighters are gonna cost some resources and waste alot of them by bailing out of of a fighter mid flight. Granted bailing is fine, but when it comes down to it..its way efficient to let a Galaxy drop you then wasting 10 fighters just to get onto a bases' roof. In which case those fighters could be using something useful like keeping enemy fighters away or attacking ground targets.

Mastachief

2012-05-21, 11:01 PM

Gotta say if you have 40 peeps, then 3 gals + air support would be a lot more effective in a base attack scenario than 40 mosquitos.

That is if you wanna do more then killwhore.

Um no it's not.

40 ground attack Reavers (i'm probably going NC) is going to be far more effective than 3 gals and 4 or 10 reavers (cant remember is a gal holds 10 or 12)

Those 40 reavers clear the courtyard and then bail on a equip terminal building and hack out maxes and such like. <--- far more flexible

This really will come down to your outfit playstyle and co-ordination.

As for resource cost? i see this as a none issue because generally if you are playing within a higher tier group, resources will naturally be abundant.

Mastachief

2012-05-21, 11:05 PM

@Timealude

That's the first sensible argument I see, but it doesn't have to be a problem. You can balance it by using a vehicle timer. You wouldn't be able to grab one Mosquito after the other and waste valuable empire-shared resources that way.

We need more info on the resource mechanics really

Timealude

2012-05-21, 11:13 PM

I agree, we don't even know how fast it accumulates.

We also dont know the amount of damage you take from bailing vs drop podding out of a galaxy.

ArmedZealot

2012-05-21, 11:19 PM

We also dont know the amount of damage you take from bailing vs drop podding out of a galaxy.

We know that if you are playing light assault, it would be none. Light assault seems the most likely choice if you are doing a mossie drop to get on top of a base. Assuming that they don't allow heavy assault to pilot.

Maybe infiltrator would be another viable choice, but it'd be pretty obvious seeing a mossie falling out of the sky.

captainkapautz

2012-05-21, 11:42 PM

Um no it's not.

40 ground attack Reavers (i'm probably going NC) is going to be far more effective than 3 gals and 4 or 10 reavers (cant remember is a gal holds 10 or 12)

Those 40 reavers clear the courtyard and then bail on a equip terminal building and hack out maxes and such like. <--- far more flexible

This really will come down to your outfit playstyle and co-ordination.

As for resource cost? i see this as a none issue because generally if you are playing within a higher tier group, resources will naturally be abundant.

Any proof that you can hack terms?

SgtMAD

2012-05-22, 08:56 AM

Your first paragraph is entirely irrelevant because we're not talking about a 20 million dollar aircraft, but a bunch of pixels worth 5 minutes of downtime (were you to use it to fly straight to a tower and bail). Go ahead and make that realism argument again, you're only proving my first point in this thread.

Great, you killed Dreamer. You're such a badass. Except it's also irrelevant what you accomplished. If it was something special, I would probably know your name, but I don't. Fact is that nobody cares anymore. You don't see me bragging about whatever I did do you? You're not going to impress anyone with it anymore.

You seem to think that using Mosquito's to bail on towers by default makes you a "Rambo". It's not even close to being true. And even if it were, why is it wrong? A game that offers both Rambo's and compulsive team players a chance to do what they want is better than a game that excludes either, and that's exactly what we're talking about when nerfing dropping.

You are delusional and butthurt. Nobody knows who you are, because rather than invent your own strategies and tactics, you played the game the way you think it was supposed to be played and never made a name for yourself. You can keep making posts about nerfing this or nerfing that, hoping you will stop people you perceive as Rambo's, but it won't matter. Planetside 1 showed that clearly. People whined because they thought Surge was overpowered, and then it got nerfed. You know what changed? Nothing. The people that dominated before the nerf still did so after the nerf. Incidentally I've also seen the very same people dominate in every other game I've seen them in.

This isn't about fairness, teamwork, or Ramboing. It's about a large number of people on this forum suffering from perpetual scrub syndrome. Psychologists call it self-serving bias; If something kills you, it's overpowered and wrong, if you kill something, it's because you're amazing. It needs to stop, because it's a negative influence on game design. Planetside 1, as well as many other games, has shown that developers can cave into mass-whining, and make rash choices that end up being worse for the game than the thing they were trying to fix.

Nothing changed since 2003, except now you feel like you matter because Planetside has long been dead, so nobody can tell if you're crying out of a genuine sense of fairness, or because you're simply bad at gaming.

I love this guy.

what I find hilarious is the guy that says he killed Dreamer,9 years later and ppl are still scarred.

and all of you think mossie hotdrops are worthless LOL

SKYeXile

2012-05-22, 09:12 AM

looked like in that video he was playing light assault so he was able to use the jetpack to glide to safety...i recall hearing it been pulsed to slow his decent.

Devs have also stated that in order to bail from an aircraft safely you will need a mod in it...despite what ALPHA footage shows.

Marinealver

2012-05-22, 09:25 AM

Galaxy was made for the whole air assault high tech Paratroop hot dropping with those gravity chutes. Mossis and reavers were just supposed to be an ejection seat. Sort of like Battlefield only the grav-parachute works all of the time. The phantasim was more of a cloaked low altitude entry vehicle.

Me I wouldn't mind say a passenger controlled Zip Lines. From non gunner passenger seats for Galaxies and Phantasims. When a the aircraft gets close enough the passangers can simply point where they want to land, one of those cavern ziplines shoots out and then the passenger disembarks via zipline to the spot. a minuet or 2 after the trip the zipline goes away. Sort of like a futurestic way of Fast Ropeing.

Rbstr

2012-05-22, 09:55 AM

I don't care that Mossy drops were effective in the original.
The Reaver and Mossy are combat aircraft, not transports (In PS2 this argument is only stronger because there is no original Mossy). But they end up being more effective than the actual transport aircraft and that's dumb.

The PS1 bailing implementation made something that required at least two people into something any individual could do on their own. And made the Galaxy option obsolete because the other way was easier to do and more effective. That's the definition of "dumbing down"

Baneblade

2012-05-22, 10:08 AM

Being able to hotdrop from a mossie wasnt the actual problem, it was being able to do that with HA and Decimators. Essentially making the pilot of a scout jet a one man army.

Now we already know that OMA is nerfed, so the question actually is: Does it matter if hotdropping pilots return?

Pyreal

2012-05-22, 11:24 AM

Your first paragraph is entirely irrelevant because we're not talking about a 20 million dollar aircraft, but a bunch of pixels worth 5 minutes of downtime (were you to use it to fly straight to a tower and bail). Go ahead and make that realism argument again, you're only proving my first point in this thread.

Compare statements: 'bunch of pixels' (current)
Compare statements: 'valuable empire-shared resources' (latter)

Side note: Subject holds specific contradictory opinions.

Conclusion: FoS.

Great, you killed Dreamer. You're such a badass. Except it's also irrelevant what you accomplished. If it was something special, I would probably know your name, but I don't. Fact is that nobody cares anymore. You don't see me bragging about whatever I did do you? You're not going to impress anyone with it anymore.

Analyze: sarcasm, minimizing, aloofness, nothing to brag about, unable to impress peers.

Conclusion: Downer personality with perfunctory seepage.

You seem to think that using Mosquito's to bail on towers by default makes you a "Rambo". It's not even close to being true. And even if it were, why is it wrong? A game that offers both Rambo's and compulsive team players a chance to do what they want is better than a game that excludes either, and that's exactly what we're talking about when nerfing dropping.

Compare statement: Mosquito + Bail on tower = Rambo = 'It's not even close to being true.'
Compare statement: A game that offers both Rambo's and compulsive.. is better.. Nerfing dropping = excluding Rambo style.

Side note: Subject insists nerfing dropping is exclusionary towards Rambo play style while maintaining that the notion of dropping being characteristic of a Rambo play style is false.

Conclusion: FoS.

You are delusional and butthurt. Nobody knows who you are, because rather than invent your own strategies and tactics, you played the game the way you think it was supposed to be played and never made a name for yourself. You can keep making posts about nerfing this or nerfing that, hoping you will stop people you perceive as Rambo's, but it won't matter. Planetside 1 showed that clearly. People whined because they thought Surge was overpowered, and then it got nerfed. You know what changed? Nothing. The people that dominated before the nerf still did so after the nerf. Incidentally I've also seen the very same people dominate in every other game I've seen them in.

Analyze statements: butthurt, Nobody knows, played the game, hoping you will stop, was overpowered, whined, what changed? Nothing., people that dominated, same people dominate, I've seen them in.

Conclusion: [Censored]

Baneblade

2012-05-22, 07:20 PM

Well, the surgile whining did have a legitimate reason. Warping intentionally was as cheesy as it got for infantry combat.

SgtMAD

2012-05-22, 08:38 PM

Well, the surgile whining did have a legitimate reason. Warping intentionally was as cheesy as it got for infantry combat.

bullshit, all you needed to do to stop surgiles was toss a friggin jammer.pretty goddamn simple solution but no, lets nerf it all because ppl were too lazy to use a grenade.

one of my guys found TB's old surgile nerf vid clip,its friggin pathetic watching him not be able to hit a guy surging at him in the back hallway of a tech plant with a JH,he couldn't hit the guy in a tight hallway with a shotgun LOL

Baneblade

2012-05-22, 08:43 PM

bullshit, all you needed to do to stop surgiles was toss a friggin jammer.pretty goddamn simple solution but no, lets nerf it all because ppl were too lazy to use a grenade.

Well, that is a lovely concept. But in actuality, it doesn't work, because the surgile isn't stupid enough to let you re equip your weapon after the nade toss. And if they are dumb enough, you probably could kill them anyway.

EDIT: I seem to remember you spending a lot of time in a Scatter cannon MAX, in fact i'm not sure you ever showed up in anything else :confused:

Anyway, some of us are experienced with this on both sides and not just talking from second person experience. Yes, I was a Surgile too on several occasions... change of pace.

Pyreal

2012-05-22, 08:52 PM

[Insert multiple, long paragraphs]

When I saw your reply I said to myself:
'Hell no, I ain't reading that.'

But after a moment of reflection I decided:
'Ah, what the hell. I'll read it then make a quip about doing him the kindness of reading his over winded post, or something snappy like that.'

I've had too many beers in the last eight hours and not enough pizza and thus my large intestines are testing the edge of rebellion. That being said, you should have respect for the superfluous kindness and testicular fortitude that was required to keep my semi-irregularly sized visual receptors following your almost-flowing prose.

I am sensitive to arrogance, as it is the most despised vanity of mankind. There is no virtue or value in self serving superiority. Really, what do you have that was not given to you?

As I read your long post I was childishly pleased by how well you wright. I even smiled my crooked smile.

If you divest yourself of your disgusting arrogance I would welcome you as a Brother in Arms! and gladly plink at T.R. and N.C. scum shoulder to shoulder with you!
But as it stands now, and I'm desolate to so inform you, I needs must shoot you. But don't worry, I hear lasers are rather painless, or so the absence of screams from your fellow warmongering fools informs me.

Have a nice day.
Good bye.
Beep.

SKYeXile

2012-05-22, 08:59 PM

bullshit, all you needed to do to stop surgiles was toss a friggin jammer.pretty goddamn simple solution but no, lets nerf it all because ppl were too lazy to use a grenade.

one of my guys found TB's old surgile nerf vid clip,its friggin pathetic watching him not be able to hit a guy surging at him in the back hallway of a tech plant with a JH,he couldn't hit the guy in a tight hallway with a shotgun LOL

surgile had it coming, despite TB's lack of aim, planetside 1 running at 5 ticks per second with movement prediction is simply too slow for the speeds of surgile. The video was abit messed up anyway, the guy he was firing at had his gun away making him go even faster, obviously not a real world scenario.

Anyway back to the topic of hotdropping, im still not seeing the problem in PS2?

in PS1, okay a guy in AGILE could bail with HA and a decimater, he could fight against guys in rexo's and kill 1 max with his deci. alright if agile vs rexo wasn't infavour enough of the the rexo defender enough for you guys in PS2 they plan to make it so the primary AV class is the rexo, a class that cant fit in an aircraft cockpit.

So what you guys are afraid of in PS2 is guys wasting resources pulling aircraft to bail on a tower in medic, engineer or infil suits...or standard assaults(that could get there anyway) they will likely have issues killing maxes and in close quarters they're in the HA assaults domain anyway. Best nerf bailing guys.

Oh yea, since people seem to have this idea that im tower bailer because i support hotdropping...im not, im a pilot, i dont care for bailing, infact i hate it because cunts always bail on me when im about to kill them. But i simply cant sit by while muppets argue that bailing as agile HA vs defenders in Rexo HA and MAX'es is a broken.

Baneblade

2012-05-22, 09:02 PM

Yeah, you never bail. Which was annoying, because I tried many times to force you to :p

Xyntech

2012-05-22, 09:09 PM

It is a good point that the class restrictions have already pretty much negated any actual balance issues of skeeter hotdropping.

Perhaps the TTK of ES fighters vs Galaxies will further the divide.

Still, rapid response troops in the fastest aircraft in the game will always be a factor, no matter how many hoops those players have to jump through to do it. It will just be nice if it isn't the defacto transport method anymore, which was a legitimate concern going from PS1's BR40 to PS2's ability to freely switch roles.

Either way, it probably won't be much of an issue since LA can safely land with or without a hotdrop shield.

Skepsiis

2012-05-22, 11:27 PM

Ive seen the so called bailure issue mentioned a few times but quite frankly i never percieved it as a problem. At least not at the gameplay level.

It WAS faster to coordinate a group of mozies than a gal and could be versatile but i always felt like it was balanced by the limitation of armor, and therefore range and/or amount of equipment you could take with you. A galaxy drop allowed you to bring rexo armor and max units and had the added impact of dropping a squad together. Plus it was a cool thing to behold.

What i do agree with however is that using aircav from ps1 purely for transport to a drop point was a little odd and sort of against the spirit of what the galaxy was meant to be for.

I dont have a problem with people wanting to do this and i think it is completely the wrong attitute to take to effectively try and remove this playstyle by not allowing aircav to drop without taking damage or whatever other proposed solutions people have. I think the right approach would be to heavily incentavise the use of galaxies for the purpose of hotdropping troops onto targets so that it becomes the prefered and more effective option.

captainkapautz

2012-05-23, 01:59 AM

They came to the conclusion that Surge did nothing to cause warping, it merely made you warp slightly further.

So because it doesn't cause warping and only makes warping worse, it's okay?

Ohaunlaim

2012-05-23, 05:24 AM

Not against hot-dropping pilots, sort of. But have always been against how hot-dropping pilots castrated Gal-drops.

There was only one drop type in PS1 so 12 mossy pilots dropping was much more efficient and flexible than 11 grunts and 1 gal pilot dropping. There is a solution which has been offered over and over again... Two drop types.

1. Galaxies would have the super-fast, instantly-ready-upon-landing, accurate-and-somewhat-control-able drop version...

2. and all pilots would have a slower, momentarily-stunned-upon-landing, inaccurate-and-uncontrollably drop version.

3. The improved (Galaxy) version would be available to pilots as a side-grade to their vehicles for those that are truly addicted to their hot-dropping escapades.

Baneblade

2012-05-23, 08:14 AM

At the time it was announced that it was going to be nerfed (for reasons SOE always lied about), some guys in 1CMM decided to test this. They came to the conclusion that Surge did nothing to cause warping, it merely made you warp slightly further (this makes sense if you understand what does cause it). They made a long post with their test results in a spreadsheet and I believe even a video. We tried to explain it all every way possible. It didn't make any difference, as people chose to believe what they wanted to believe even with the evidence that it was BS right in front of them.

SOE never made any attempt to fix the underlying problems with this game, and instead caved into pressure from some of the most delusional groups of players.

Who said Surge caused it?

It is pretty obvious the difference between surge and non surge in a stairwell. Surge sometimes going through the ceiling...

Mastachief

2012-05-23, 09:14 AM

Hence why lots of "leet" players deliberately re-rolled female agiles.

captainkapautz

2012-05-23, 09:43 AM

Don't taunt me with rhetorical questions, fool. Figure it out for yourself.

Good to know that you knew your explanation was bullshit.

captainkapautz

2012-05-23, 04:13 PM

Describe how. Show me how clever you are.

You reason surgile wasn't responsible for warping, only made it worse, therefore it wasn't so bad.

In short, bullshit reason.

SgtMAD

2012-05-23, 06:08 PM

You reason surgile wasn't responsible for warping, only made it worse, therefore it wasn't so bad.

In short, bullshit reason.

well they nerfed surgile and there was still warping all over the place,its a fact, not some idea the guy came up with,maybe if you would have played the game more you would know about all that.

captainkapautz

2012-05-23, 06:23 PM

well they nerfed surgile and there was still warping all over the place,its a fact, not some idea the guy came up with,maybe if you would have played the game more you would know about all that.

The fact alone that surgile made the distance being warped worse should be reason enough, maybe if you would have thought about that more you would know that.

Baneblade

2012-05-23, 06:58 PM

When your car won't start because the battery is empty, you don't put on new tires and hope it starts. You charge the battery.

More like, your car didn't quite win the quarter mile, so you put a turbo in it and strap a shotgun to the front.

Nerfing Surgile was the easier solution, even if it was just a band aid.

SKYeXile

2012-05-23, 07:09 PM

When your car won't start because the battery is empty, you don't put on new tires and hope it starts. You charge the battery.

It was unfeasable to change the netcode at the time, hardware simply would not support a higher tick rate and changing to interpolations with its delay with such a low tick rate would create other issues that would be complained about equally asmuch as warping.

1cmm's research would have only compounded that surgile needed to go, with the netcode been unable to be changed at the time and surge contributing to a further warp, the sensible thing to do was obviously remove it. Also it obviously made some factions weapons superior to others, unbalancing the game.

Baneblade

2012-05-23, 07:19 PM

What would you have done El Failo?

captainkapautz

2012-05-23, 07:33 PM

Restricting medium armor to medium assault weapons would have been a decent start (so no more JH+surge). Load-outs in PS2 can go a long way to balancing these things.

Holy crap, why didn't you use valid arguements before?

Baneblade

2012-05-23, 07:34 PM

Restricting medium armor to medium assault weapons would have been a decent start (so no more JH+surge). Load-outs in PS2 can go a long way to balancing these things.

Well, that idea was flamed into the ground... I remember.

SKYeXile

2012-05-23, 07:43 PM

The surge-exacerbated warping happened specifically at the top of staircases and other slopes, they wouldn't have needed to increase the tickrate at all, it could have probably been solved entirely client-side. Jackhammer vs. MCG vs. Lasher could have also been solved separately.

I'm more concerned about the attitude some people have towards nerfing/buffing than any surge equivalent being in PS2, I'm not married to it.

This is true, the client predicting peoples locations in unpossible spots was defiantly a problem. but still with strafing, surge made you warp pretty far distances.

The rest really does come down to the tick rate though, when there is .2ms between packets, its .2ms where the client msut predict movment, it does an okay job when people can only move a meter between ticks, but when they're moving..what? twice that, a correction could wrap somebody upto 4 meters, further if you missed a packet.

xASUSx

2012-05-23, 07:44 PM

Quadshot was actually nerfed, but it still instagibbed agiles and was still almost as lame as before.

I don't remember that part myself, but it was probably mostly NC complaining about the idea. If that's the reason why they didn't do it, then it further goes to show that whiners had too much influence on development in that game, which is what my main contention has been all along.

ya like your doing now.:evil:

captainkapautz

2012-05-23, 07:59 PM

I did, you're just too dense to understand.

Nah, seeing as most of your other arguements were of the "HARPDARP MAK GAEM LIEK QUAKE!" kind.

FastAndFree

2012-05-23, 08:03 PM

captainkapautz

2012-05-23, 08:05 PM

captainkapautz

2012-05-23, 08:07 PM

Goes to show how little you actually understood of it. Now stop wasting my time, you abject manchild.

Are you busy playing Quake?

KTNApollo

2012-05-23, 08:10 PM

If they make vehicles cost enough (not too much, not too little) it should discourage lone wolves from buying a Mosquito/Reaver/Scythe, afterburning to the fight, and bailing. Galaxy and Liberator pilots should not be allowed to bail straight down, but rather an ejection seat that skyrockets them into the air and parachutes them down slowly (preventing fast entry into the fight after a hotdrop/bombing run).

SKYeXile

2012-05-23, 08:10 PM

It was the worst when they moved through the ceiling, because their hitbox would get clipped, but I'm pretty sure they could have at least added in some piece of code that restricted that.

I played with 100-115ms ping, and I never had more trouble shooting surging warpers than regular ones. Maybe it was way worse for you because you're Aussie.

Ping does not to increase warp. only packet loss, my packets are sent and received at the same rate, they're simply delayed.

I didn't have issues(i had a lasher afterall), im just taking the side of the argument i feel is right and players warping all around the screen is simply wrong. It would have been good if they could have kept the faster pace, including movment speed of PS, buts its not just surge nerfing that lead to a slower paced game. TTK times on everything went up.

reaver, special assault, deci, rexo buff all increased TTK. more defensive weapons including CE and base turrets. Along with the ultimate stalemate machine, the BFR, all this lead to a slower more defensive game, its not just nerfing surge to blame for the lobotimisation of PS1.

SKYeXile

2012-05-23, 08:14 PM

Moving away from the topic of surge, which is as far as we know rather irrelevant in regards to Planetside 2, TB's Lib video showed that Ejection Seats are now apparently required for bailing.

Making it necessary to choose between bailing and other neat stuff like radars

no it says for bailing "safely" if you refer to mhigbys previous comments he already said that you can always bail...you will just probably go splat into the ground if you're not a light assault and can use your jetpack to control the landing.

presumably the bail mod gives you dampeners so you can bail from any height at any speed with any class.

SKYeXile

2012-05-23, 08:25 PM

Where did I do that then? I've written countless of posts saying exactly what you're saying now dude.

as have I, as have I. *removed*

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps/posts/list.m?&topic_id=88000017990

my last [Mod edit] rant.

Xyntech

2012-05-24, 06:24 AM

no it says for bailing "safely" if you refer to mhigbys previous comments he already said that you can always bail...you will just probably go splat into the ground if you're not a light assault and can use your jetpack to control the landing.

presumably the bail mod gives you dampeners so you can bail from any height at any speed with any class.

Seems like a fair trade to me.

Fly as an engi and you can repair your aircraft without needing the auto-repair module, but you have to either land, or fly really low to the ground if you want to survive getting out of the aircraft.

Fly as a LA, and you can safely bail without any additional equipment, but you may need to take up a slot with the auto repair module if you want to always have the ability to repair your aircraft.

Infiltrators and medics would have to take both of them (assuming they wanted both of those functionalities available to them).

Better than having all aircraft be automatically given a get out of death free card, just make it an option whith pluses and minuses.

Also, much better to have auto repairing vehicles only be an option and not a standard feature, although there is still plenty of room for it being a horrible feature if the auto-repair isn't balanced properly.

Fortress

2012-05-24, 06:08 PM

This thread man.

Just.

Goddammit.

Hey, wonder why the PS1 vets around here are so bitter? It's because the rest of you suck so fucking much that altogether you chucklefucks form the ultimate argument against the existence of a loving God.

Baneblade

2012-05-24, 07:18 PM

That was eloquent.

captainkapautz

2012-05-24, 07:19 PM

That was eloquent.

Yeah, but what did it actually mean?

Baneblade

2012-05-24, 07:22 PM

Yeah, but what did it actually mean?

It means he didn't read the whole thing.

captainkapautz

2012-05-24, 07:27 PM

It means he didn't read the whole thing.

So "TL;DR, ranted anyway"?

Baneblade

2012-05-24, 09:32 PM

So "TL;DR, ranted anyway"?

It's pretty standard fare. Surge into a thread, glance at the killspam, then start throwing plasma grenades because someone hit that chick you wanted to hit on.

Maybe that was only in my outfit.

ratfusion

2012-05-24, 10:44 PM

I'd like to see it completely stopped. Die with your bird. Only passengers should be able to bail, there needs to be some trade-off for that mobility.

I'm in the camp that thought hotdropping was a bane on PS1.

SKYeXile

2012-05-24, 10:47 PM

God i hope when PS2 goes live forums names are tied to account so i can click somebodys stats like in WOT, laugh at them and not waste my time replying to n00bs.

Xyntech

2012-05-25, 12:04 AM

God i hope when PS2 goes live forums names are tied to account so i can click somebodys stats like in WOT, laugh at them and not waste my time replying to n00bs.

I'll just be one of those friendly noobs, who people want to reply to regardless :D

SKYeXile

2012-05-25, 12:17 AM

I'll just be one of those friendly noobs, who people want to reply to regardless :D

i got no beef with the friendly n00bs, its the ones the come in and call for nerf this, buff that when they know nothing about the game. Because a: they're terrible, and will never know anything or b: they simply havnt played it for long enough and have enough experience to comment on the more intricate things like game balancing.

Xyntech

2012-05-25, 12:49 AM

i got no beef with the friendly n00bs, its the ones the come in and call for nerf this, buff that when they know nothing about the game. Because a: they're terrible, and will never know anything or b: they simply havnt played it for long enough and have enough experience to comment on the more intricate things like game balancing.

I'm a part time noob. Only every other thursday. I'll make sure not to comment on game balance on those days.

p0intman

2012-05-25, 02:12 AM

So I started doing theory crafting the other night. It boils down to the fact that PS2, being free to play means that the class system and any prevention on hotdropping or anything else is full of shit.

Being free to play means I can have as many accounts as I want with as many highly specialised characters as I feel I need, without ever paying $ony a cent. It also means that the "20 percent" figure between player power levels is equally full of bullcrap.

I know that I could easily run two clients with the current released figures. This means I can have a cloaking scout alt who also sometimes transports me and others around, and does nothing except that. It also means I can have a medic alt that I bring to an area of operations, log off somewhere nearby and then use that when I need a battle res.

It means I can multibox, and be my own support. There is nothing anyone can do about it, your 'balance' is already broken. Just bring back the old inventory system and stop with this nonsense.

Xyntech

2012-05-25, 09:08 AM

I know that I could easily run two clients with the current released figures. This means I can have a cloaking scout alt who also sometimes transports me and others around, and does nothing except that. It also means I can have a medic alt that I bring to an area of operations, log off somewhere nearby and then use that when I need a battle res.

You are making a lot of assumptions in your "theory crafting (tm?)." For example, we don't know if characters will be able to log back into the game in the same location that they were when they logged out, like we could in the first game. Also, since cloakers can't be medics this time around and TTK's are faster, it may not end up being very practical to rez yourself in a dangerous area without support from other players, and if you have support, why even bother wasting time trying to multibox?

As for transporting yourself around, you seem to have missed the concerns about hotdropping. Nobody cares if you have a random cloaker flying a Galaxy or Liberator around just to drop off some lone random fuck. The concern is that ES fighters could potentially be a superior form of airdropping transport over the Galaxy in every way. This doesn't seem to be the case based on some of the restrictions of PS2 though, so problem solved. You can still fly your ES fighter as Light Assault or equip the bailing module if you really want to use it that way.

It means I can multibox, and be my own support. There is nothing anyone can do about it, your 'balance' is already broken. Just bring back the old inventory system and stop with this nonsense.

What? How does inventory even come into this?

Certainly hacking and multi-boxing will be a concern for the game, but it's a concern with a subscription model as well. The blatant ones will always be caught quickly no matter the model, and the subtle ones will probably always be harder to catch, if they are ever caught. If anything, hopefully being F2P will force the devs to be a little extra vigilant to not let shit get out of hand, especially given F2P's bad reputation.

Just chill a little and don't worry yourself over speculation and "theory crafting" so much. Speculation is good fun while waiting for beta, but there's no sense getting worked up about it.

Unless you are just fear mongering and/or stuck in the past, wanting every single thing to be a carbon copy of the first game, in which case I don't have any interest in what you have to say.