How long should it take to get into combat?

[kunzadar]

In the past I have played mainstream shooters including bf bad company 2 and bf 3, as well as mmofps games like ps1 and ww2 online. A mechanic that i extremely enjoyed in the mmofps game was how meaningful a kill could be when i
knew that the person i killed would have to spend several minutes just getting back to where he was.

Of course the flip side of this is when i die right when i get to the front lines and have to walk forever.

I am concerned that in an effort to make ps2 more accessible the devs may go to far. Making it much easier to re-spawn and get back in the fight, but also making a kill less meaningful. It takes away a lot of the jeopardy of dying and challenge of staying alive.

[ZeroOneZero]

You could always destroy their spawn points (Galaxy, tubes, etc) then they would have to walk to use a vehicle. PS1 was kind of similar. Hot drops only worked when you were in the sanctuary.

[JPalmer]

Spawning will be the same as PS1 except for one factor. You can spawn at bases and outpost as before and can spawn on a AMS(Now Gal and maybe Sundy).

The new one is via the squad. You are going to need a cert to have the ability for squad mates to spawn on you. And you don't just pop out of their ass. You come down via drop pod. So no spawning indoors and you are a big target if you try to come down on a front line.

If you want to take the risk of getting in the battle faster. A drop pod is the way to go, but you will be a big target.

[maradine]

I think OP's point can be summarized in the question:

when I drop a guy, how long can I reasonably expect him to be out of the fight?

[Zekeen]

Time varies depending on location and how heavy the combat is in the area.

PS1 had a respawn penalty for dying frequently, to prevent zerg fights and give the better side more chance to take over an objective. A respawn timer started at 5 seconds, maxed out at 30 seconds for nearly impossible zones. You could respawn sooner by picking a spawn in a non conflicted zone.

Expect him to have to respawn on a similar mechanic, which means he will be a problem again within spawn time + travel time.

So realistically. The fasted time would be 5 seconds + time for a drop pod to land + time to find you (about 15-25 seconds). Unless you were standing beside an enemy Galaxy that was deployed (about 10-15 seconds).

There is also the time that it takes to go from freshly dead to respawn screen. So add 5 more seconds to that.


But for simple understanding - if you killed him on his turf - 30 seconds to 2 minutes.

If you killed him on your turf 3 minutes (if deployable or tower is nearby) to 30 minutes (all deployables destroyed, tower is your empire)

Hope that helps. And this is time for him to return to fight you, not find one of your allies on the way and engage them then.

[Bags]

I know higby said spawn times would be like up to 45 seconds with 45 seconds being drop pod squad spawning.

[Memeotis]

I used to play a game called Joint Operations: Tycoon Rising, which had huge maps and up to 150 players per map. And I might be a bit odd, but I actually enjoyed it when you had to fly for a couple of minutes to get to your destination. Usually all the good vehicles would be all the way at the back of the map, but when you got a little organized and hopped into a Blackhawk with 7 other players it just felt epic flying all the way to the front. And in this case, I think the extended waiting time added to thrill, because your anticipation would grow, as you sat there knowing that shit was about to go down.

Hopefully PS2 will have that same feeling when you hop into a galaxy and head in far behind enemy lines.

[Stardouser]

Good topic. Big huge maps should provide a long trip to the fight, but after you die you should be able to respawn again, even on your squad, within 20 seconds. More than that is boring.

And before anyone says anything about repetitive, no skill Rambo attacks and not wanting to learn the game, this is NOT about wanting to win through repititive attacks. It's a pace preference. CoD players want to respawn instantly and be shooting or shot at within 5 seconds, I like to be back in the fight somewhere between 20-90 seconds. The reason it's up to 90 seconds is for travel time.

A smart squad leader will stay back, so even with squad spawning at 20 seconds, his staying back can easily lead to 20 seconds more before you can fight.

Again, this is a pace preference to avoid boredom and frustration. It's not about winning by Ramboing. I think the game should be about killing entire squads and making the squad leader run back, not about killing individuals and making them individually wait 45 seconds plus runback every time.

I know some of you are upset at the idea that squad spawning won't have a 5 minute cooldown because you don't want to be chasing a squad leader and have his squad members spawn on him and kill, but in that situation, where is the rest of your own squad?

[Shade Millith]

I know higby said spawn times would be like up to 45 seconds with 45 seconds being drop pod squad spawning.

45 seconds? YES! I was hoping for a really long timer for squad spawning! BF2-2142-3's system of squad spawning is honestly terrible.

I like this one.

[Gonefshn]

more than 20 seconds is a long time. It depends on how easily you can be killed without any input from yourself. In PS1 it was easy to decide how much you wanted to exert yourself. If you died it was more often than not from a decision you made to be aggressive not from randomly getting hit. With fast TTK where you can be dropped easily no matter the circumstances you need to be able to get back in rather quickly.

[Zulthus]

I think the max in PS1 was 30 seconds... spawn time was determined by how long your previous life was and if you're trying to survive or just run in, take a few shots, and die. I think they did that well. People who are reckless should be kept out of the fight longer IMO. 30-45 seconds max I think.

[SpcFarlen]

15-20 seconds on hard points and 45 seconds on squad lead sounds good to me for spawning. 45 seconds is plenty of time to get a squad completely wiped out. Though i would also like a timer on the intervals of squad members spawning on a squad lead.

Say like each member can only spawn in after 5-10 seconds from the other but still having the personal 45 second timer on using a drop pod. It just shifts the focus more away from squad leads being the go to spawnpoint.

[Stardouser]

15-20 seconds on hard points and 45 seconds on squad lead sounds good to me for spawning. 45 seconds is plenty of time to get a squad completely wiped out. Though i would also like a timer on the intervals of squad members spawning on a squad lead.

Say like each member can only spawn in after 5-10 seconds from the other but still having the personal 45 second timer on using a drop pod. It just shifts the focus more away from squad leads being the go to spawnpoint.

Just curious so we all get on the same page...it seemed to take about 10 seconds to guide the drop pod down. So when you guys say 45 seconds do you really mean 45+10 or 35+10?

[The Kush]

In the past I have played mainstream shooters including bf bad company 2 and bf 3, as well as mmofps games like ps1 and ww2 online. A mechanic that i extremely enjoyed in the mmofps game was how meaningful a kill could be when i
knew that the person i killed would have to spend several minutes just getting back to where he was.

Of course the flip side of this is when i die right when i get to the front lines and have to walk forever.

I am concerned that in an effort to make ps2 more accessible the devs may go to far. Making it much easier to re-spawn and get back in the fight, but also making a kill less meaningful. It takes away a lot of the jeopardy of dying and challenge of staying alive.

Agreed

[ninjaturtlesoup]

A longer respawn time is a good way to make death meaningful. If you've ever accidently joined a TF2 control point match with instant respawn, you know how much those can turn into a grinding stalemate. I'm sure the devs have this in mind and will be tweaking the spawn timer in beta. I wouldn't mind a 20-45 second respawn if it makes battles more tactical and gives me a chance to adjust my loadout without feeling rushed back to battle.

[SpcFarlen]

Just curious so we all get on the same page...it seemed to take about 10 seconds to guide the drop pod down. So when you guys say 45 seconds do you really mean 45+10 or 35+10?

45 seconds from the time you select to spawn that way until the time you can use that option again

So really it is:

Time dead + 0 = Spawn on objective
Time dead + 10s landing = Squad lead pod

But you can only use the pod once every 45 seconds.

[JHendy]

I know higby said spawn times would be like up to 45 seconds with 45 seconds being drop pod squad spawning.

The TTK seems way too high for a spawn time that long. Even if we're just talking drop pods here, I don't think people will take kindly to a 45 second wait after being sprayed to death in half a second when there aren't any other spawnpoints.

[Stardouser]

The TTK seems way too high for a spawn time that long. Even if we're just talking drop pods here, I don't think people will take kindly to a 45 second wait after being sprayed to death in half a second when there aren't any other spawnpoints.

Spawn timers increasing just keeps you staring at a menu screen. It's boring and only meaningful in the sense that you want to avoid it because it's so frustrating. It needs to be there, but not to go all the way up to a full minute.


This. Increasing the respawn timers, or even the cooldown of squad spawn, will only add frustration and boredom.

[Toppopia]

After watching the video someone made with clips from GDC to june, i saw at once point the TTK was quite high, took like 2-3 seconds to kill someone, unless he was glitched because the shooter was aiming directly at the enemy and shooting and he didn't die fast.

[Stardouser]

Well squad spawn is the most powerful spawning option you have, as it brings you closer (&faster) to the base (and your squad) than any of the other spawning options. It's already tied to resources I believe and the cooldown on it is just to prevent a squad from essentially becoming unremovable.

The reason why it works better in Battlefield is that BF has round-end timers. At some point the game ends and whether you've respawned 3 times or 16 times doesn't matter towards the end result of the battle. It correlates, but victory is determined by how far you got with the capture points. In PS2 the round never ends, it just shifts to the next region forever, cyclically. Increasing spawn timers and cooldowns make sure that battles don't come to a complete stop when 2 matched empires are rapid-respawning on location and then rushing into each other like blindfolded ibexes.

Well, I've played on 1000 ticket servers(vomit), and, well, it rarely works out that way. Sometimes you do have a long firefight, and those are awesome, but I never saw constant stalemates.

Also, as long as we don't do something really stupid like, allowing the squad leader to respawn on his members(when he dies, that should make his squad SOL), there should be ways to root him out and kill him. Orbital strikes, grenades, calling in air support, etc.

I really think this is one issue where no one can truly say they know better than anyone til we try it - ie, PS1 didn't have squad spawning, so we don't know from that there will be bad stalemates, and BF2 isn't a persistent MMO, so we don't know from there, either. End result - I just hope the devs don't go into beta with the idea that squad respawn timer MUST be punishingly long.

[Runlikethewind]

Well squad spawn is the most powerful spawning option you have, as it brings you closer (&faster) to the base (and your squad) than any of the other spawning options. It's already tied to resources I believe and the cooldown on it is just to prevent a squad from essentially becoming unremovable.

The reason why it works better in Battlefield is that BF has round-end timers. At some point the game ends and whether you've respawned 3 times or 16 times doesn't matter towards the end result of the battle. It correlates, but victory is determined by how far you got with the capture points. In PS2 the round never ends, it just shifts to the next region forever, cyclically. Increasing spawn timers and cooldowns make sure that battles don't come to a complete stop when 2 matched empires are rapid-respawning on location and then rushing into each other like blindfolded ibexes.

This. The pace in Planetside is supposed to be a little bit slower IMO.

[Shade Millith]

Well, I've played on 1000 ticket servers(vomit), and, well, it rarely works out that way. Sometimes you do have a long firefight, and those are awesome, but I never saw constant stalemates.

I played competitively for a while in BF2.
And yes, the squad spawning turned a lot of areas into boring stalemates, that involved the squad leader hiding, and the other team playing hide and go seek, to try and end the constant stream of baddies.

It was one of the biggest things that made me and half my clan up and quit after BF1942.

Squad spawning is FAR too easy and cheap for it to be 10 -20 second spawn. Dying should be a pain, and remove you from the fight for a decent amount of time.

[Toppopia]

Also, if you don't like long respawn times, have a decent medic that does everything in their power to revive you. So you will have to rely on a friend or outfit members. I think most of will agree you can't rely on random people to do anything.

[proxy]

Squad spawning is FAR too easy and cheap for it to be 10 -20 second spawn. Dying should be a pain, and remove you from the fight for a decent amount of time.

Squad spawning should be in, but be limited. It should be just about the same time as dropping in, except you have the advantage of being able to spawn indoors, at location, undetected for the most part.

I would also add that squad spawning cost resources or have a slow recharge?

Also, if you don't like long respawn times, have a decent medic that does everything in their power to revive you. So you will have to rely on a friend or outfit members. I think most of will agree you can't rely on random people to do anything.

This is big. Coordination is the biggest draw for me and many others to the PS play style. Encouraging that at every step is paramount and both medics and squad spawning are ways of doing that.

[WolfAlmighty]

They can't make spawning in BF too long because then it gives all the ADHD kiddies that still play it enough time to type out long insults and racial slurs. ;)

[Saintlycow]

Here's how i see it.

The closer you try to spawn to the action ( or the area you died ), the longer the spawn time.

Ex: Squad spawn is 45 seconds. Foothold is 10ish

[Stardouser]

I played competitively for a while in BF2.
And yes, the squad spawning turned a lot of areas into boring stalemates, that involved the squad leader hiding, and the other team playing hide and go seek, to try and end the constant stream of baddies.

It was one of the biggest things that made me and half my clan up and quit after BF1942.

Squad spawning is FAR too easy and cheap for it to be 10 -20 second spawn. Dying should be a pain, and remove you from the fight for a decent amount of time.

First, I disagree about the boring part. It doesn't mean you're wrong, but instead, simply that others don't share your view. A 90 second or even 3-5 minute firefight instead of one squad wiping the other out in 10 seconds isn't a boring stalemate, it's an appropriate stream of action and it's a lot more fun than one entire squad or the other dying every 10 seconds and running back to the fight every time. Squad spawning allows evenly matched squads to trade blows for a while, and the squad leader hiding is only prudent gameplay. And to that end, the longer squad spawning timers are, the more determined the squad leader will be to hide, in my opinion. Combined with the low TTK, people will in general be more inclined to camp.

Secondly, you call it easy and cheap and I knew someone would try this argument. It's a game pace preference. It's not about trying to win with low quality cheap and easy attacks made repetitive by squad spawns. It's about getting back into the fight for a proper balance of fighting and traveling.

The point of this is not to show that you're wrong, because you're not wrong, but simply to confirm that this issue is a matter of subjective preference. Opinions can't be wrong, though as I say, you think people want to win through repetitive Rambo attacks facilitated by fast spawning(ie, your "easy and cheap" comment) but that is not true, people just don't want to spend more time running back than fighting.

And since it's a subjective matter of opinions, that leaves the devs with a choice. The longer they keep people out of the fight, the more they risk fractionalizing the number of new players who will stick with the game long term. Skill and organization can shine through in faster return to combat times as well as slow, so while you cannot possibly be wrong to say that you enjoy slower respawn times more, it's really just dragging the debate to a lower level by attempting the cheap and easy argument.

Granted, your position on this is a victim of the times - had all the people incoming to PS2 started with PS1, they would be accustomed to long respawn times and this would not now be an issue. Unfortunately, that's just not reality.

Also, if you don't like long respawn times, have a decent medic that does everything in their power to revive you. So you will have to rely on a friend or outfit members. I think most of will agree you can't rely on random people to do anything.

If it turns out that you cannot pick up the kits of friendly players, then screwing over a squad will be a simple matter of killing the medic(s) first even if you can't kill anyone else in the squad. That will screw the squad quite nicely when combined with punishing respawn timers.

[Blackwolf]

So wouldn't it be better to replace squad spawning with a deployable spawner gizmo from an Engineer?

Give the Engineer a deployable that creates a beacon. Can only be deployed outside and drop pods are dropped within a certain radius of it (like 4-10m). It's something visible and destroyable and could be set to only benefit the squad or it could be made to benefit the empire at large (one or the other depending on balance issues of course).

Much longer spawn times and cumulative increases. It would drop someone in every 5 seconds (taking into consideration a base 10 second respawn) so if a lot of people were using the same one, last in line would be a long time coming in. This means that spawning in a squad might take as long as a full minute for the last guy to get spawned in. Since it's a pocket spawn point it can't handle the same loads that a Galaxy or hell a tower could.

Just an alternative thought.

[Dagron]

Spy sappin mah teleporter!

Your idea of giving engis the squad spawn ability is intriguing sir...
Although devs should be careful not to make the class too important.
I wouldn't wanna be tagged as a priority target too much. :p

[Conq]

It can't be too long or you'll kill the casual player base, which PS2 will need in order to pay the bills. Nothing instantaneous mind you, I hate the Battlefield squad spawn system but don't make it anything like Darkfall where it'd take you 30 minuets to gear up and get back into the action right after running 30 minutes to get there in the first place.