MAX seem a bit strong in this version...

[Nick]

Is it just me or do MAX units seem really strong this time around? Remember how early on in Planetside 1, AV MAXs were quite viable against Infantry? Well it seems the same in Planetside 2, except worse this time. You know how in modern shooters, direct hit rockets/grenades/etc are basically a OSOK? Well, look at this beast in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onvySU5NkFo#t=44m32s

In Planetside 1, MAX's (AI/AV) were balanced out by the fact that the AV cert was quite common, as well as third person and tight corridors allowed for skilled players to abuse their mobility and take them down solo with Decimators.

In Planetside 2, there is much more openness to interior battles. I fear that with this, compounded by the fact Planetside 2 seemingly has quite high TTK explosives might make AV MAX spam really overpowered, and every Infantry battle will be overshadowed by MAX units just coming and cleaning up at an extremely fast rate.

The one thing that Higby has said is that MAXs have a new weakness: they can be 'significantly damaged' in one headshot (from a sniper, at the very least). Will this balance everything out? I'm doubtful, but I guess we'll see.

Other than that, the MAXs look amazing in Planetside 2. I'm just worried that MAX zerging will be a little bit too viable.

TLDR; Modernization of Planetside in Planetside2 with faster TTK/OSOK explosives might make the AV MAX too strong against Infantry.

[Death2All]

That's just one of those things you have to wait to see until beta unfortunately. It certainly looks powerful as all shit, but who knows if there's different parameters in place that lessen the damage when hitting infantry. Even if they did less damage I still think that big ass explosion would give you a huge advantage because your opponent wouldn't be able to see.

[Fanglord]

I guess you could argue that with reduced mobility; the MAX's themselves become vulnerable to faster AV infantry or vehicles kinda balancing it out.

[Nick]

I guess you could argue that with reduced mobility; the MAX's themselves become vulnerable to faster AV infantry or vehicles kinda balancing it out.

Yeah, I'm not saying that MAXs themselves won't be more squishy. However, indoors away from Vehicle combat, it seems that the AV MAX's can do the damage quite quickly even before getting taken out.

Maybe reducing the AV MAX's rate of fire would be a solution to this. I wish we could get some figures on TTK versus MAX with certain weapons (such as standard guns, sniper rifles, and rocket launcher/other MAXs) but I suppose beta will be soon.

[kaffis]

Each arm had like 21 shots. Given the Falcon rounds have decent arc and will have an appreciable travel time at range, I'm not concerned -- the MAX will be wasting enough rounds trying to hit a moving target and zero in his arc and leading that he won't be laying waste to dozens of infantry.

On the flip side, I expect the AI will have the ammo and the ballistics profile to be MUCH more effective at laying waste to dozens of infantry.

MAXes are supposed to be scary. Particularly indoors -- they're indoor vehicles. Resource costs and people being smart enough to ensure their squad has a few people who carry anti-MAX weaponry (which includes AV MAXes) indoors will be fine to counter-balance them.

It's all about squad diversity. If your squad carries the right toolset, they can handle this. If you just have a squad full of medics and LA.. yeah, you're going to have problems. But there's nothing stopping anybody from switching to HA.

[Gandhi]

It's pretty easy to tweak AV damage against infantry, one shell from an AV MAX doesn't necessarily have to do the same damage against infantry that it would against vehicles. And balancing is something that happens in beta, there definitely will be changes to MAXs before release.

I actually think significantly damaging a MAX with a headshot will make the game worse, but I'm tired of arguing against it.

[ringring]

Teh only infantry I have heard that maxes are vunerable to in Heavy. Bear in mind that a squad should be balanced in terms of Light and Medics then Maxes may besuperbad.

[Troscus]

I can strap a Vegas strip sign to my car, but that's not going to make it go any faster. Point is, it can LOOK as bad as it wants. It's the meat, not the presentation, of the meal that counts on this one.

[PlaceboCyanide]

Don't forget that the Maxes will require more resources than any other infantry. Also think of how much the world size has been ramped up... that mobility Achilles heel is going to really hurt the maxes.

[Fanglord]

MAXes are supposed to be scary. Particularly indoors -- they're indoor vehicles. Resource costs and people being smart enough to ensure their squad has a few people who carry anti-MAX weaponry (which includes AV MAXes) indoors will be fine to counter-balance them.




This, I think this is biggest reason im looking forward to this game. Im bored of BF type games where tanks are not feared.

[TacosWLove]

Oh Feck me that Max looks AWESOME! and seriously people, there inst much we can do about balancing for a game thats in Alpha. There is a time and place for everyone to wine about how over powered something is and that's BETA!

PS1 Scat Max could pwn you in 2seconds, yet died pretty easily with a single deci and a lil cover...

[Timealude]

i also think boomers are gonna be a challenge for max suits as well like they were in ps1, i also can see why they took the vanu mac jump ability out, all it would take is one to jump jet into the base from the ground floor.

[Nick]

http://yfrog.com/z/klmqzmij

Proof to my madness! Falcon does more damage than Scat! :D

[Bags]

http://yfrog.com/z/klmqzmij

Proof to my madness! Falcon does more damage than Scat! :D

All that proves is in that instance he hit him more with the falcon.

Furthermore, it's alpha. Nothing is balanced.

[Gandhi]

i also think boomers are gonna be a challenge for max suits as well like they were in ps1, i also can see why they took the vanu mac jump ability out, all it would take is one to jump jet into the base from the ground floor.
It's gonna be much worse now if you can attach boomers to character models. It'll be easy as pie to throw a boomer onto a MAX's back as a light assault or infiltrator.

[Trolltaxi]

http://yfrog.com/z/klmqzmij

Proof to my madness! Falcon does more damage than Scat! :D

How cynic is that TIP beneath a half-scat-half-falcon NC MAX? :)

I think maxes shouldn't be balanced with a squishee - they are maxes ffs! They are designed to be uber with a squishee.

The resource cost or any kind of timer should balance it, but in a squishee-max situation the max must win without problems.

[CutterJohn]

Strange. I was thinking they'd be weaker, or at least more annoying.

So far, they seem to lack a PS1 run mode, and also they seem to lack any capacity for self healing. Meaning once again, they'll be the only unit in the game that can't heal itself, and now they'll also be the only unit in the game that must beg for rides to get somewhere. Everything else can take a vehicle, or is a vehicle. Everything else has auto repair, or can be driven by an engineer.

Hopefully I'm wrong about that though.

[The noob]

Strange. I was thinking they'd be weaker, or at least more annoying.

So far, they seem to lack a PS1 run mode, and also they seem to lack any capacity for self healing. Meaning once again, they'll be the only unit in the game that can't heal itself, and now they'll also be the only unit in the game that must beg for rides to get somewhere. Everything else can take a vehicle, or is a vehicle. Everything else has auto repair, or can be driven by an engineer.

Well, they did say that maxes will really only shine when working alongside team members, to make up for your (huge) weaknesses

[CutterJohn]

Well, they did say that maxes will really only shine when working alongside team members, to make up for your (huge) weaknesses

The problem is MAXes have always been weak outdoors, precisely because they had low mobility and hitpoints compared to vehicles, and zero self sufficiency. AA maxes could work despite this due to their massive, massive, range. AV and AI maxes were horribly useless outside. They don't need additional handicaps there. Just inside.

[Nick]

My only issue is that AV MAXs are going to be a glorified noobtube MAX, essentially. With modern FPS TTKs being higher particularly on explosive damage, I don't want to get gibbed as an Infantry because some AV MAX is abusing overpowered rate of fire explosives which should be useful only against vehicles.

That's why I suggested reduce the rate of fire, because if they shoot slow it will be much more easy to deal with as an Infantry.

In response to that, add a bonus modifier against vehicles, so that with with the slower attack they still do roughly the same damage versus Vehicles.

[IMMentat]

MAXes are supposed to be scary. Particularly indoors -- they're indoor vehicles. Resource costs and people being smart enough to ensure their squad has a few people who carry anti-MAX weaponry (which includes AV MAXes) indoors will be fine to counter-balance them.

It's all about squad diversity. If your squad carries the right toolset, they can handle this. If you just have a squad full of medics and LA.. yeah, you're going to have problems. But there's nothing stopping anybody from switching to HA.

This.
Remember that MAX suits sacrifice everything to be heavily armed heavily armoured killing machines, they can't drive (confirmed by higby), they can't hack and during beta they will probably be balanced out with a small resource cost and reuse timer. Power, but at a cost of flexibility.
Can't wait to see what the utility options will be.

[sylphaen]

All that proves is in that instance he hit him more with the falcon.

Furthermore, it's NC. Nothing is balanced.

;)

[IMMentat]

If anything my biggest worry is about Rexo(heavy assault?) class, they seem to be the AV, AI and AA class.

Admitedly its a choice on-spawn which target type they will be set-up against. The "PlanetSide 2 Live Stream Recording" timestamp 49:05 lodeout has a big gun, pistol, BIG specialist weapon plus a personal shield? ability (higby mentions that the real AI guns will replace the AV weapon usually shown) but that still means the utility classes will need something special to prevent PS2 becoming the land of the heavy assault zerg.

Of all the things I have seen so far this is my only real concern, mostly due to not much info being released about the medic and engineers place in an actual fight.

[Blackwolf]

If anything my biggest worry is about Rexo(heavy assault?) class, they seem to be the AV, AI and AA class.

Admitedly its a choice on-spawn which target type they will be set-up against. The "PlanetSide 2 Live Stream Recording" timestamp 49:05 lodeout has a big gun, pistol, BIG specialist weapon plus a personal shield? ability (higby mentions that the real AI guns will replace the AV weapon usually shown) but that still means the utility classes will need something special to prevent PS2 becoming the land of the heavy assault zerg.

Of all the things I have seen so far this is my only real concern, mostly due to not much info being released about the medic and engineers place in an actual fight.

The simple fact that LA has jump jets will prevent this from being a rexo war again.

Agile in PS1 had virtually zero advantage over Rexo in infantry combat. It was slightly faster but in close quarters such as bases, that amounted to exactly nothing in 90% of the situations you might encounter indoors. We've all seen how effective a VS MAX suit was outside against virtually any target. That jump pack gave it the ability to outmaneuver significantly faster targets easily.

Now I might be mistaken on this, but it looks like a large portion of the base is outdoors rather then indoors. The tower in that vid was very open and roomy, and had large portions exposed to the outside environment. LA will have a good advantage against HA in that kind of facility. The problem I see is tower camping by vehicles. That facility had few spots for turrets and large gaps in the walls between the air pads and where I assume the spawn rooms are (downstairs).

[KTNApollo]

MAX's should have numerous weak points on their armor IMO. This rewards precision gunplay and offers a valid way for infantry to take down a MAX solo. For instance joints should take extra damage when shot because they are less armored.

[Blackwolf]

And I'd rather the MAX not have that run ability. I like the idea that they are heavy defensive units that are rarer on the offense. Outdoors they might provide close infantry support on the march from tower to base, but as a primary assault force they would be torn to shreds without that auto run ability.

So far I think the DEVs are making a lot of radical changes to PS2 compared to PS1, and most of them are for the better.

As for their damage potential, why are we talking like we know what those explosions are capable of despite that video not showing any kind of target for those blasts? It looks powerful, but so did the Magrider's rail gun and the effect radius was roughly half of the actual graphics. This is a game after all.

[SpcFarlen]

With any AV weapon it is rather easy to balance, limit splash damage or just remove it all together. The weapons are meant to pierce through armor. You want energy directed into your target not outward (or as splash).

You can look in a game like BC2 with the Gustav and the At-4. Gustav had very high splash damage, but little direct damage so it was not ideal for taking out vehicles. Where the At-4 would just wreck through armor but you need a direct hit with it on infantry almost. That is just an example of how a good balance was made.

So i think all AV weapons should have that low splash high direct damage model. It is much more efficient, from an engineering mindset because that weapon is used for what it is names for... Anti Vehicle/Armor/Tank.



PS: of course people may use it against infantry but with limited amounts of ammo and the fact that you then have one fewer way to deal with a vehicle. Any sound person would use it sparingly.

[cryosin]

The one thing that Higby has said is that MAXs have a new weakness: they can be 'significantly damaged' in one headshot (from a sniper, at the very least). Will this balance everything out? I'm doubtful, but I guess we'll see.
.

I hope not... MAXes are already very vulnerable in the outdoors. A sniper getting free kill like that would make MAX'es utterly useless outside. Try playing a MAX in ps1 where you see "missile lock" and phoenixes hitting you 24/7. Now snipers can shoot you too? I really hope that isn't the case...

[Jinxsey]

Look at the alpha footage.

Light assaults jumping around on rooftops, hitting each other with bursts of AR fire and snapping into cover.

MAXes and Rexo will be outmanoeuvered in that kind of environment and killed. Both sides are going to need to be controling the vertical eliment in any fight as well as deploying a decent wall of survivable infantry.

Looking at the availability of weapons it's easy to become paniced, but there is alot more going on there than just which class can take what weapons.

Higby actualy said that MAXes would not be killed easily by snipers, TB brought up the hitbox thing and he specificaly point out that only squishy classes would be killed in two or three hits, MAXes and Rexo would be more survivable.

[Blackwolf]

With any AV weapon it is rather easy to balance, limit splash damage or just remove it all together. The weapons are meant to pierce through armor. You want energy directed into your target not outward (or as splash).

You can look in a game like BC2 with the Gustav and the At-4. Gustav had very high splash damage, but little direct damage so it was not ideal for taking out vehicles. Where the At-4 would just wreck through armor but you need a direct hit with it on infantry almost. That is just an example of how a good balance was made.

So i think all AV weapons should have that low splash high direct damage model. It is much more efficient, from an engineering mindset because that weapon is used for what it is names for... Anti Vehicle/Armor/Tank.



PS: of course people may use it against infantry but with limited amounts of ammo and the fact that you then have one fewer way to deal with a vehicle. Any sound person would use it sparingly.

I agree with this but it still looks like PS2 will be following PS1's example of exactly the opposite of this. Probably because explosions are cooler.

Another example of how real world physics could balance the game out more then fantasy BS.

[Kurtz]

Yes, lets nerf the maxes before the beta.
I hope the dual pounder rapes face like it did PS1 release. It should.

[Traak]

Is it just me or do MAX units seem really strong this time around? Remember how early on in Planetside 1, AV MAXs were quite viable against Infantry? Well it seems the same in Planetside 2, except worse this time. You know how in modern shooters, direct hit rockets/grenades/etc are basically a OSOK? Well, look at this beast in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onvySU5NkFo#t=44m32s

In Planetside 1, MAX's (AI/AV) were balanced out by the fact that the AV cert was quite common, as well as third person and tight corridors allowed for skilled players to abuse their mobility and take them down solo with Decimators.

In Planetside 2, there is much more openness to interior battles. I fear that with this, compounded by the fact Planetside 2 seemingly has quite high TTK explosives might make AV MAX spam really overpowered, and every Infantry battle will be overshadowed by MAX units just coming and cleaning up at an extremely fast rate.

The one thing that Higby has said is that MAXs have a new weakness: they can be 'significantly damaged' in one headshot (from a sniper, at the very least). Will this balance everything out? I'm doubtful, but I guess we'll see.

Other than that, the MAXs look amazing in Planetside 2. I'm just worried that MAX zerging will be a little bit too viable.

TLDR; Modernization of Planetside in Planetside2 with faster TTK/OSOK explosives might make the AV MAX too strong against Infantry.

I hope MAX's are walking tanks. And if you are flogging a softie with AV explosives, he should die, not be able to get right up against you and have the splash miraculously kill you through 650 points of armor while he survives. Idiotic to an extreme that is hard to even imagine.

[The Kush]

A max one on one with infantry should win. That is why you stick with a team

[Johari]

Also note that he had to reload about 3 seconds later and can only carry 21 rockets per arm. Those precious rounds might be wasted on a LA when there's a tank 50ft back ruining your own troops.

[Marinealver]

MAXs are always powerful. Heck an AA MAX is more than a match for a regular foot soldier, even with AP ammo.

The only time a softie has the upper hand on MAXs is wiht AV. Then the MAX dies quick.

Out in the open MAXs are no longer the big fish in the little pond. Aircav and Tanks are always shooting at those not to mention that Wall Turrets can auto target them. Also even though they are faster than footslogers in autorun, they are still slower than all other vehicles. Also they cannot get into enemy buildings unless someone opens the door for them.