Higby Clarification on Upgrades

[Hamma]

http://www.planetside-universe.com/media.php?view=2133

http://www.planetside-universe.com/media/album/mp52rz6sp6/20120601_4fc90200d9d92.jpg

Weapon customization clarification for @psucom forums - you select one cert-based perk at a time trade offs!

Discuss.

[Gonefshn]

Are these cert based perks such as, lower recoil? Higher rate of fire? etc. we are talking about? cause if so it sounds a lot like weapon perks in MW3 but honestly I think thats the only way to do it! Sounds good to me!

[Greeniegriz]

Guess that would be one cert per item? ie pick a one cert for your main weapon, secondary, utility, gadget etc etc.

I like it.

Cheers,

GG

[Logon]

This means if i cert Dmg Range and rate of fire i can only choose one module on my weapon, even if i've certed all of them.

I think i got it :D

[Zekeen]

I'm sorry, what was this thread about again? I was lost in thought staring at the graphics of the gun in the screenshot. *stares again*



Seriously though, it's good as is. We were prepared for basic attachment mods, not increment mods. I think it will do great this way. We wanted base guns, now we get a single choice, it's a + to gameplay, not a -, so it's all good.

[PeteHMB]

Yeah this sounds much better thanks for clarifying.

[kaffis]

Wait, this isn't how people were reading that screen before?

/boggle

[Mod]

Sounds all good in theory.

If you are going up close and personal down in the base then you might want damage. Whereas if you want to be up on the ridge overlooking the base you might want accuracy/range instead.

[MrBloodworth]

That sounds much more acceptable.

The way it sounded was you just got unlimited cert points, to buy power increases and you could have them all at once.

[Virulence]

Yeah, it'll probably shake out similar to the way it is in BF3, where you're choosing between... Heavy barrel vs. Suppressor vs. Laser sight (just an example) depending on your personal playstyle and the area you're fighting in.

[Warborn]

That's incredibly boring. The RPG aspect of the game is honestly incredibly underwhelming. I'd rather have a far deeper and more customizable system like what Dust has. This milquetoast "well we don't want anyone to have an advantage because of character progression" stuff is pretty lame.

[Xyntech]

Oh... people thought that you could have all of these upgraded at once? I think I understand some points of view better now.

No more than %20 more powerful was the quote. There is no way that's going to happen if you can have all of those equipped and upgraded at the same time.

Gotta stay chill until beta. Test some of this shit out for ourselves. It may end up being broken after all, and it's worth speculating about (to pass the time until beta if nothing else), but even some of the solid info we do have is getting misinterpreted. Better to have first hand data before freaking out.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Eyeklops]

This milquetoast "well we don't want anyone to have an advantage because of character progression" stuff is pretty lame.

If you really believe this..PS2 will not be the game for U.

[MrBloodworth]

Eyeklops! We agree on something!

[Xyntech]

That's incredibly boring. The RPG aspect of the game is honestly incredibly underwhelming. I'd rather have a far deeper and more customizable system like what Dust has. This milquetoast "well we don't want anyone to have an advantage because of character progression" stuff is pretty lame.

You want vets to have a significant power advantages?

A vet will still have the option of +20% x, or +20% y or z, while a newer player will only have +20% y, or will only have +10% x, y or z.

Having vets with more power is lame. It's an FPS, not some shitty RPG where a level 80 always wins against a level 70.

[Warborn]

If you really believe this..PS2 will not be the game for U.

Yes, I am incapable of enjoying a game unless I approve of literally every aspect of it. That is why there is no game on the planet which is "for me".

Planetside 1 was a monument to stupid fucking decisions. I played it for years. The sequel will have stuff I think is dumb and areas I think they could do better. I will probably play it for years. So don't worry about what game is for me or not, sugar tits, as I'm well versed in figuring that out for myself.

[Bags]

This milquetoast "well we don't want anyone to have an advantage because of character progression" stuff is pretty lame.

To clarify, you want higher level players to have large advantages?


And that gun is fucking sexy.

[Sirisian]

You want vets to have a significant power advantages?
I'd prefer this mixed with the resource system. So on my favorite screen I can choose a gun like a Pulsar then when I have the cert I can add an upgraded rail for more accuracy for 10 resources and then an upgraded sights for a higher zoom for another 10 resouces. Then a grenade attachment for 20 resources and an extended mag for 25 resources. That kind of deep customization that any player can do to weapons for the cost of resources allows for much more interesting gameplay and customization. Especially if one player likes to specialize in being a grunt versus spending all their resources on vehicle upgrades with a similar deep set of customizations.

The current system with a single cert is extremely shallow and isn't really using the resource system to its full potential to allow maximum customization.

Click the Resources link in the my signature. I'd rather not explain it all again. :lol:

[Bags]

Any system that doesn't allow underslung grenade launchers is great in my book.

[MrBloodworth]

I'd rather have a far deeper and more customizable system like what Dust has. This milquetoast "well we don't want anyone to have an advantage because of character progression" stuff is pretty lame.

http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/459

[Mod]

Sounds like the wrong end of the stick is still be snatched at here...

The 1 cert at a time thing I believe was only applicable to the +x% in a stat. You can still equip a scope, and a grenade launcher etc... all at the same time once you have actually unlocked and spent cert points on them.

[Razicator]

I feel like certs should make you more flexible, NOT more powerful. In PS2 it seems to be done well.

BR40 in PS1 made you more powerful because you can have all the flexibility in one life. A heavy weapon + AV + med + ACE + repair + REK + etc, all at once, made for BR40s just being too powerful.

BR40 in PS2 will still be limited in what class you choose, so no walking "flexible tanks of death," but you are free to switch classes whenever. That is what I feel Higby is going for, and that I approve.

[Warborn]

To clarify, you want higher level players to have large advantages?

I think Dust's system is perfect. A huge depth of skills which both grant access to more options and offer improvements to your character. None of which exclude you from being killed by a new person, but which make your veteran soldier of years of play feel like a veteran soldier.

Similarly, you have a slew of armor, weapons, equipment, and modifications which are not merely side-grades and trade-offs. They're things you buy with in-game money (that you earn through fighting and winning) and are actually better than the original. Again, they're not stuff that'll make you invincible, but they're clearly better than their cheaper or free counter-parts.

Ultimately, I think a system which grants character progression which is meaningful is superior to one in which you're virtually unchanged from when you started. And I find a resource system which isn't basically only used for junk like consumables and vehicles after you've unlocked your particular attachments to be inferior to one in which good play can give real bonuses in the form of equipment that you can buy (and subsequently lose when you die). It's all much more deeper and more meaningful than what, lets face it, we've all played before in Battlefield 3.

[Bags]

Well I personally prefer visual customization / sidegrades for veterans over pure power, which seems to be the route they're going, so I'm happy. :)

[Xyntech]

Sounds like the wrong end of the stick is still be snatched at here...

The 1 cert at a time thing I believe was only applicable to the +x% in a stat. You can still equip a scope, and a grenade launcher etc... all at the same time once you have actually unlocked and spent cert points on them.

Right. But for example, you can only equip one optic at a time (obviously, lol).

I believe the idea is that you have to choose between customizations 1, 2, and 3 for this slot, and customizations a, b, and c for that slot, etc etc.

There will be many things to customize. You'll be able to simultaneously use several cert unlocks at once, but in different areas of your load out. Every decision will be a tradeoff, to take one option out of several choices in each customization category.

[Bags]

Right. But for example, you can only equip one optic at a time (obviously, lol).

I believe the idea is that you have to choose between customizations 1, 2, and 3 for this slot, and customizations a, b, and c for that slot, etc etc.

There will be many things to customize. You'll be able to simultaneously use several cert unlocks at once, but in different areas of your load out. Every decision will be a tradeoff, to take one option out of several choices in each customization category.

I want five scopes on my jackhammer.

[Warborn]

Well it's what Battlefield 3 did so I guess they're on the right track.

[Razicator]

I want five scopes on my jackhammer.

http://i.imgur.com/f5tgn.gif

[Warborn]

shitty macro

Congratulations on not understanding what I wrote.

[Stardouser]

What does increase range mean? Effective range? Literal maximum(ie, bullets wink out of existence at 300m for example)? Less bullet drop? Less spread?

[Eyeklops]

Yes, I am incapable of enjoying a game unless I approve of literally every aspect of it. That is why there is no game on the planet which is "for me".

Planetside 1 was a monument to stupid fucking decisions. I played it for years. The sequel will have stuff I think is dumb and areas I think they could do better. I will probably play it for years. So don't worry about what game is for me or not, sugar tits, as I'm well versed in figuring that out for myself.

Two words: Anger Management.

[MrBloodworth]

Congratulations on not understanding what I wrote.

That's exactly what you wrote. You want vertical progression instead of Horizontal.

[Razicator]

What does increase range mean? Effective range? Literal maximum(ie, bullets wink out of existence at 300m for example)? Less bullet drop? Less spread?

I think your second example, range where they go out of existence. Damage-wise, you can just get stronger bullets to do more damage at range, so it makes no sense for a range perk to do more damage at range too. Extending the range of bullets I can see though, especially with sniper rifles.

[Xyntech]

Ultimately, I think a system which grants character progression which is meaningful is superior to one in which you're virtually unchanged from when you started. And I find a resource system which isn't basically only used for junk like consumables and vehicles after you've unlocked your particular attachments to be inferior to one in which good play can give real bonuses in the form of equipment that you can buy (and subsequently lose when you die). It's all much more deeper and more meaningful than what, lets face it, we've all played before in Battlefield 3.

You assume upgrades are necessarily more "meaningful" than sidegrades.

Vets will have all sorts of customizations that make their loadout unique, custom tailored to their style of play, compared to a new player in all of the usual, middle of the road default gear.

The big difference between what you suggest and what PS2 offers is that if the vet is just more of an average FPS player and the new guy is amazing at FPS's, the new guy will probably dominate the vet.

This is how it should be in an FPS. If Dusk takes it as far as you make it sound like, then it's a terrible RPG bullshit decision and I strongly suspect the game would die in part because of it. That shit works fine in an PvE RPG, not in a PvP FPS.

I want five scopes on my jackhammer.

Fuckin NC man, always needing to duct tape another dozen pieces of shit to their equipment.

You can only get four scopes. Five is overpowered.

[Eyeklops]

I want five scopes on my jackhammer.

I think there was mention of allowing 2 scopes. So your only 3 away!!!

[Razicator]

What if we can have scopes directly integrated into our armor? Then he can have THREE scopes a la
http://gamestatics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/splinter-cell.jpg

[Sirisian]

...
I think you're making the assumption that character progression will take years so any cert you allow someone to unlock that someone else doesn't have access to must do nothing tangible in the game. I think the resource system as a whole will balance that out on a much higher level. Also I'm imagining an extremely broad tree for the cert system. That is you'd have a lot of choices.

Taking the upgrade system to the extreme we can show the system works. Say one cert (of over 100 options) unlocked a shield module at BR 12 that cost 200 resource but doubled your shields. Now to a person that just joined the game and grabs the stock gear and uses his resources on a few of the starting upgrades it might seem odd that a player has such a seemingly large advantage if they lack the customization options at the time. I think this is an inherent flaw with unlocks in an FPS system that we just have to deal with. That is taken to opposite extreme you could have a shield module for BR 12 that costs 200 resources and does almost nothing noticeable. (Blocks 1 extra bullet for an enemy machinegun). A new player joining would feel they are at the same level as a player that's unlocked a bunch of stuff and is using resources for it. A person that's BR 12 will on the other hand feel like the unlocks they're paying resources for every spawn to customize are doing nothing.

Ideally the leveling system is fast such that players can cert across a huge range of upgrades that don't vary across levels. That is there isn't a better barrel at BR 12 for more accuracy than a BR 6 unlock. The resource system would play a huge roll. You might get a BR 12 unlock for double the price for double the accuracy. It might eat into your resources, but it would be a choice for customization among the certs you unlocked. Still doesn't get rid of the fear of min maxing certs though that needs to be carefully analyzed.

Well I personally prefer visual customization / sidegrades for veterans over pure power
If you think about it the sidegrade level of customization doesn't utilize the resource system at all. If everyone use resources for purely positive upgrades to customize you further the idea of customization that's balanced and offers more playstyles. This also allows grunts to customize at the same rate of vehicle users to create unique configurations.

You assume upgrades are necessarily more "meaningful" than sidegrades.
It's not much an assumption. It does offer much more meaningful upgrades. It would be like if a BR6 unlock offered twice the shields for 20 resources. For a player that has say 100 resources when they spawn they might pick it up. A BR 12 player might spawn with more certs unlocked and notice he has an engineering unlock for his engineer gun for 30 resources that allows double armor repair rate. Or a BR 12 cert for his tank that allows a heavier cannon for 50 resources. Basically the system isn't trying to make the game unbalanced to new people. It's just inherent that with the system they chose where players unlock certs that are available only at certain battle ranks that players that are just beginning won't have access to them. Doesn't mean they are more powerful necessarily. They'd just have more choices at spawn until the new guy catches up.

[Novacane]

From the looks of it, the cert system isn't designed to be extremely deep but more of a broad unlocking system to give you more toys to play with. This would give new and veteran players similar chances to be using the same equipment, it's just a veteran player may have more options than a newer one. I can't see how this would give a huge advantage to anyone except that you can tailor your player to your play style which may allow you to play more efficiently.

[Slib]

This milquetoast "well we don't want anyone to have an advantage because of character progression" stuff is pretty lame.

I'm not sure what you want as an alternative. A more traditional leveling system that makes anyone that's a higher level the winner?

When they say "no advantage", I'm pretty sure they're talking about straight up power from being a higher level... Like a level 50 character fighting a level 10 character in WoW.

Your actual skill at first person shooters is what should give you an advantage...

You put yourself in a better position, you win.
You are a better shot, you win.
You predict your enemy's movements, you win.
You react quicker to opportunities, you win.
You get to cover more efficiently, you win.

You should NEVER win simply because you have a higher level. A higher level character will probably win against a low level character, simply because he or she will have more experience with the game mechanics.

A higher level character will also have more specialization into their chosen role or roles. He or she will be better in a certain situation, not just all of them across the board because of a higher level.

[Xyntech]

It's not much an assumption. It does offer much more meaningful upgrades.

Sorry, poor wording. Obviously it would be more "meaningful." The big meaning being that the vet would outclass the newbie.

But sidegrades are not inherently less deep or less rewarding. In fact, in a FPS, I'd argue that it's more rewarding to have a ton of customization options, but still feel like you killed that newer player based on your skill, not your gear.

[The Kush]

So you can "unlock" every cert, but you can only use one as a time ie "less recoil"?

Sounds good to me

[Red Beard]

Planetside 1 was a monument to stupid fucking decisions. I played it for years.

:lol:

[Sirisian]

Sorry, poor wording. Obviously it would be more "meaningful." The big meaning being that the vet would outclass the newbie.
How? The one I'm thinking of is a new player with nothing unlocked has only the default upgrades to spend resources on. So even with a lot of saved up resources they wouldn't have the options to become more powerful. Is this the situation you're thinking of? The current system isn't much better. A player might not have any useful unlocks. (I believe they said in the current system unlocks for weapons cost no resources, so it's fundamentally different system to what I'm talking about). How long would this last? I mean unless it takes a really long time unlocking the most basic things to spend resources on. If it did take a while for a single weapon or something then the player would be stuck with a lot of resources unless some good unlocks were available to even the most new players. I agree it is something to be weary about even in the system I described.

But sidegrades are not inherently less deep or less rewarding. In fact, in a FPS, I'd argue that it's more rewarding to have a ton of customization options, but still feel like you killed that newer player based on your skill, not your gear.
Why can't it be both? It's no different than someone buying a grenade or a medkit with resources to gain an upperhand in a situation. The skill could easily be knowing what gear to buy for situations. If both players are smart they'll choose similar gear (or opposite gear) and spend their resources to help themselves equaling the combat out depending on how the player's want to do things.

An example would be allowing a player to spend resources on a cert to double the effective range of their lock-on AA rocket while a pilot decides to upgrade their aircraft with flares (instead of a longer afterburner). Both would cost resources and be choices each player could make. This is allowed in the current system where a single cert is enabled at a time. What isn't allowed though is applying multiple upgrades at the same time. However, if a resource system is in place applying multiple upgrades using your available resources opens up a much deeper level of customization especially for that that want to pull stock vehicles or weapons every turn to unlock multiple upgrades at a later time. This seems to be a very contentious point. I don't mind if one player choose to min-max at one spawn using a lot of resources as long as everyone can do the same basic thing if they wanted to. (That player might drain all their resources so the next spawn they have less choices they can make for customizing). Serious if I saw someone glowing and saw an upgrade HA gun with attachments or extra armor plates it would be like fighting a mini-boss in a game. On the other hand some people want all the classes and weapons to be essentially very similar so it comes down to player skill and not customization choices or how player allocate resources. I see the concept since it's common in multiplayer FPS games, but I don't think it's required in Planetside. Again I like the idea of allowing people to spend resources on game altering upgrades if they want to. Really opens up the doors with the resource system across all the classes and vehicles.

[Papagiorgio]

I want five scopes on my jackhammer.

I bet you'd like the OPMOD Tactical Mug then!

[Dreamcast]

Theirs one thing I don't understand.


I remember seeing a crap load of perk boxes for weapon damage.


So will it be benificil for me to only have 5 perk boxes for weapon damage instead of 10 because I gat a little bit more damage with 5 perk boxes but don't sacrafice a lot of my accuracy...unlike if I had all 10 perk boxes which should sacrifice more accuracy?



What Im trying to say is will 10 perk boxes be better than 5 perk boxes...automatically or will their be a trade off their.


Hopefully u understand.

[sylphaen]

But sidegrades are not inherently less deep or less rewarding. In fact, in a FPS, I'd argue that it's more rewarding to have a ton of customization options, but still feel like you killed that newer player based on your skill, not your gear.

To me, Xyn pretty much summed it up there.

BR40 in PS1 was OP because you had access to all playstyles available and it made your character more versatile, not because it made your character stronger.

[Xyntech]

Why can't it be both? It's no different than someone buying a grenade or a medkit with resources to gain an upperhand in a situation. The skill could easily be knowing what gear to buy for situations. If both players are smart they'll choose similar gear (or opposite gear) and spend their resources to help themselves equaling the combat out depending on how the player's want to do things.

A grenade must be purchased every time. A cert unlock only requires a one time purchase.

A day one player can earn a few resources and get a grenade, but they can't earn 10,000 cert points to level their damage up +%300.

The devs range of %20 doesn't seem too unreasonable to me, but you're off your rocker if you think something like %50 or more would be acceptable. It's just plain and simple shitty gameplay.

Imagine for example if in the first Planetside, new players only started off with the beamer, and then had to level up to BR20 to get a Pulsar, and then up to BR40 to get a Lasher. Can you imagine how shitty that would be for new players coming into the game? Come the fuck on. We want PS2 to continue to be welcoming to new players years down the line. That means the game needs to be a relatively even playing field, where vets have more options, not more power.

Would you even have fun outclassing new players through gear alone? Fuck that. I am so glad that Higby isn't thinking along those lines on this issue. At least he has some restraint, capping the idea at %20ish.

[Aractain]

Theirs one thing I don't understand.


I remember seeing a crap load of perk boxes for weapon damage.


So will it be benificil for me to only have 5 perk boxes for weapon damage instead of 10 because I gat a little bit more damage with 5 perk boxes but don't sacrafice a lot of my accuracy...unlike if I had all 10 perk boxes which should sacrifice more accuracy?



What Im trying to say is will 10 perk boxes be better than 5 perk boxes...automatically or will their be a trade off their.


Hopefully u understand.


This is what I was wondering too.

[Sirisian]

A grenade must be purchased every time. A cert unlock only requires a one time purchase.
I guess I wasn't clear. I was suggesting it should cost resources every spawn to use certs. Some might be small amounts with others being larger. It's an easy way to create a resource drain in the individual resources. The developers don't seem to like that direction. Not sure why.


The devs range of %20 doesn't seem too unreasonable to me, but you're off your rocker if you think something like %50 or more would be acceptable. It's just plain and simple shitty gameplay.
I haven't said any numbers. I think you're reading into what I'm saying and assuming.

On that note though exact percentages would really depend on the TTK and balancing of the game. Allowing an unlock for a tank to increase the armor or increase the speed have interesting complications for balancing especially when resources come into play. You mention 20% is reasonable as the devs stated. That could very well be the average change with and without resources. (Though there would be a general understanding that most people would have resources and would be upgrading in their own way give or take).

As an example that I'd prefer would be if you're an infantry and there's some air outside that are annoying. If you didn't want to use a max you could grab your AV lock-on weapon and then use resource to upgrade it with faster lock-on, faster rockets, and longer range for a boatload of resources. (A fighter pilot could do the same thing). Now if all these go beyond the 20% threshold is a balancing issue and one players would need to think about. Personally for me the exact percentage doesn't matter much as long as the gameplay works and is fun.

[SKYeXile]

Hmr that makessense, i was under the impression each cert would be a very slight passive upgrade though.

[Xyntech]

I apologize for my misunderstanding. That would be possible, but it could create some pretty difficult spawn load outs. You would have to plan ahead for all sorts of contingencies if you didn't want to use as many resources here or there.

I doubt anybody is going to want to sit there for several minutes tweaking their load out each time they spawn.

Good idea in principle of cost vs reward, but with the amount of customization options that are going to be available, I don't see how it will be practical. With the current method, there will already be a significant variety to choose from, but at least players will only have to save custom load outs for as many combinations of certs as they want to use, not additional loudouts that use less certs to save on resources.

[Rbstr]

Wait, this isn't how people were reading that screen before?

/boggle

Yeah, I don't get why people thought otherwise.

A few upgrade slots, some stuff the goes in each one of them. Only one at a time.

[Blackwolf]

What does increase range mean? Effective range? Literal maximum(ie, bullets wink out of existence at 300m for example)? Less bullet drop? Less spread?

Probably less bullet drop. The only thing affecting the range of weapons that fire bullets is their drop rate, so more range would likely be an accuracy boost in itself simply because you have to compensate less for bullet drop.

[Graywolves]

I'd prefer horizontal customization.


BUT!

Perhaps a stock(un-modded weapon) will be weaker than an upgraded weapon. Then it's basically a decision of which upgrades you are using. As long as the upgrades are small/minimal I wouldn't mind so much. Newer players might mind, I won't.

Character progression isn't something I enjoy much.

[Gonefshn]

Character progression isn't something I enjoy much.

See I agree. It has been so long that we have really had nothing but MMORPGs and I feel like because of that people have associated the words MMO with RPG so much they believe it has to have RPG elements. This is an MMOFPS it doesn't need heavy RPG elements. What is important in RPGs is gear, progression, looting, exploring. What is important in an FPS is competitive fair gameplay.

[Sirisian]

See I agree. It has been so long that we have really had nothing but MMORPGs and I feel like because of that people have associated the words MMO with RPG so much they believe it has to have RPG elements. This is an MMOFPS it doesn't need heavy RPG elements. What is important in RPGs is gear, progression, looting, exploring. What is important in an FPS is competitive fair gameplay.
To be fair if it was up to me all the certs would be unlocked and players would be able to customize their weapons, vehicles, and loadouts with resources. Talking about upgrades in respect to the cert system greatly complicates the discussion since it brings the whole idea of player progression into the mix. So instead of what I'd prefer with just "I killed some guys and repaired a tank that killed a guy and earned 200 resources that I can now spend on upgrades for a loadout" it's more along the lines of "I killed some guys and repaired a tank that killed a guy and earned some 200 resources, but I can only spend it on stuff I have unlocked so in most people's minds I'm automatically weaker than someone who has unlocked everything". I think that part is really making the conversation awkward. It's making it difficult for me to get across my idea at least since the whole unlocking system creates that beginner vs veteran difference that people hate and want to get rid of. I don't think the developers want to remove that?