Are we looking the same game? Because what I'm looking at looks amazing. [Archive]

Kurtz

2012-06-01, 05:14 PM

We have been privy to some pretty early content releases and after each and every one, some of you guys complain about the most mundane stuff.

I ask you, are we looking at the same game? Because the game I'm looking at looks fucking ridiculous. Planetside was the best game ever made and a lot of the guys who worked on it are working on Planetside 2. Its not like they didn't learn from the first one. They're taking the things that didn't work, weren't marketable, we're redundant or obsolete and making them better.

Aircraft and flight physics
Then when I get bored of that I can just go hop into my pimped out Scythe sitting 1km up spamming fire n forget missiles (certed) whilst spinning around on all 3 axis popping flares/chaff and firing rainbow lazors (customised) like some spiky disco ball of doom.

Personally I found this to be hysterical. The sad part is the poster is being sarcastic but is seriously complaining. While I do share some concerns about letting good VS pilots like AC (armehnian corps) have an aircraft that can pitch 90 degrees without losing lift, I am STOKED to fly in this game.

I was a pretty avid pilot and flying in PS1 was like flying a hockey puck. As one of the orginal devs said, it was like literally moving a camera around in Z-space with WASD. Now there are flight physics, flares, free look and customized huds for starters. We're not even talking about the certification and skills that will allow you to tweak your aircraft to be different in terms of turning radius, weapon loadouts and more.

TTK
I'm used to kill streaks in BF/COD because you CAN kill more than 2 players at a time. In Planetside, I would often put a lot of time and effort into ONE kill and just before I got the kill, someone would steal (chizow) the kill. Going up against 3 Rexos was an impossible task. There was no way, no matter how good you were that you were going to get those three kills unless maybe you caught them coming up the tower stairs and you plasma spammed them and used HA to finish them off.

While I am admittedly a bit concerned that the TTK is a bit too fast in PS2 I am looking forward to being able to lay down the same ownage in PS2 that I am able to do in the more modern shooters like BF and COD.

I wont have to overclock my FSB (speed hacking) or camp the spawn tubes (Godjoey) to actually have a chance to be somewhere on the leaderboards.

Flight Ceiling
...OMG really. You're complaining about the newly increased +600m flight ceiling? I think it is amazing. From what I saw in TBs video with higby you could probably safely fly above even the most annoying VS max AA without warning.

Boundries.
While I admit that it was nice to plot a course to the objective out in the ocean to avoid enemy AA and useless engagements otw to the objective, I don't see a real loss in not having useless ocean to travel over. See the increased flight ceiling above.

Sanctuary VS footholds
At first this set me back too, I liked rallying at sanctuary to bring in the large invasion, but when you think about how this caused network logistic problems you can easily see why it was removed.

In the old PS if you got kicked off a continent, your next spawn could only be at an AMS you were bound to or Sanctuary. So while you were regrouping at sanctuary the continent was getting pop locked. You and your buddies were stuck in the warpgate trying to get back in. With the new PS, you can never be denied the continent you want to fight on.

Lets see, what else are you all bitching about....

Concept Art vs. Model
really? next.

Inventory
Really? you want to run around with your inventory open and swap out that 2nd decimator when your first one ran out of shells it was disposable and your inventory didn't see it as ammo. All while a max is chasing you around the generator. I'll pass.

Third person
Corner camping? No thanks.

Prone
I can see an argument for this, especially since it is more necessary in a modernized FPS with grenade launchers and snipers. Prone isn't for camping its for ducking spam and headshots.

Basically the only way we're going to see how all this plays out is to play the game in Beta. Then can make your case.

So far, when I look at the gameplay footage I am floored. My jaw is on the floor. Personally I can't wait.

The Kush

2012-06-01, 05:15 PM

I agree the game looks beyond amazing from what I can tell.

EDIT: Except you are wrong about prone. Prone has no spot in PS.

Razicator

2012-06-01, 05:20 PM

TLDR: Don't complain or criticize anything because it's better than a decade old game...

polywomple

2012-06-01, 05:21 PM

lol

The game looks great. And it's FREE

ichebu

2012-06-01, 05:21 PM

Thank God I'm not the only one who feels this way. Upboat for Kurtz.

Bobby Shaftoe

2012-06-01, 05:23 PM

The sad part is the poster is being sarcastic but is seriously complaining.
Yes because you can be fully certed in Scythe and be fully certed in everything else, you know, the whole point of that thread. I too can take excerpts from posts and use them out of context to make a point.

Vancha

2012-06-01, 05:23 PM

Of course people are going to concentrate on the things they want changed when given the opportunity to share their thoughts while the game's still being developed.

I doubt most people would be arguing for changes if they thought the game looked bad as a whole. They moan because they love.

Gonefshn

2012-06-01, 05:24 PM

I agree with you 100% basically everything about this game has me so stoked!

But what is the point of this thread it's just going to cause another flaming argument war when all the people you just called out show up. And it's not like this thread is meant to discuss anything specific worth talking about it's unnecessary.

Raymac

2012-06-01, 05:26 PM

I also think there is alot of nitpicking and nostalgia that is being paraded as "game breaking". However, although I may disagree with alot of it, I think it's good that it is being discussed. The more of a gauntlet that occures during the development, the better the final product is likely to be. I don't mean to say that we the fans are always right, but ideas that go unchallenged will have risky results.

Razicator

2012-06-01, 05:28 PM

Man the OP just wants a huge circlejerk. What a waste of space. "I'm complaining about complainers, does anybody else agree?"

If this continues, I'll start another thread complaining about complainers complaining about complainers.

MgFalcon

2012-06-01, 05:28 PM

Sir, you put my thoughts and feelings into words /win

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

aceshigh

2012-06-01, 05:28 PM

So we're the Armenian Corps now?

Dartan

2012-06-01, 05:34 PM

The problem with most of the game looking amazing is that it puts low quality stuff like bad turret rotation animations (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?p=707079#post707079) in stark contrast thus making it more obvious and nagging.

Gandhi

2012-06-01, 05:36 PM

It's because it looks amazing that people are so vocal about minor things. If it looked like crap we'd all have moved on by now.

I did like how you went on to list some of this complaining with comments of your own like "Well yeah I'm concerned about this too" or "I can understand why there's some disagreement over this". I feel like I've missed the point of this thread :confused:

Anyway, like I've said plenty of times the game looks great, and the fact that people are complaining about relatively minor things is a testament to that. We just want our kid to grow up big and strong :)

Bobby Shaftoe

2012-06-01, 05:37 PM

I'll bite, does no one recall how horrendously OP aircav actually was, even with such huge limitations?

Now they're 3-4 times faster, have full freedom of movement, customised loadouts and have even greater immunity to AA via an extra 600 metres of clear air between them and those lowly ground pounders, not to mention counter-measures to AA!

Airchavs didn't like Ceryshen/Searhus crater because AA was actually effective and deadly. I suppose they also found it boring having to constantly fly off to an air tower and be back at the target with full health 30 seconds later after each spamming run.

Shogun

2012-06-01, 05:38 PM

look at the forums, there are loads of posts that say how great and awesome ps2 and most features are!

it´s just selective perception! we all agree on most great things, so it´s just a praise and that´s it. but on subjects that we don´t like we want to discuss to see if we can get it changed.
sure there is a lot of unnecessary ranting, but a lot of constructive discussion also.

higby and his team would have a hard time improving the game, if we all stop to discuss the things we don´t like.

Envenom

2012-06-01, 05:38 PM

Finally. A man that speaks reason. All these grizzled old PS vets need to calm the F down. This game looks amazing.

Hmr85

2012-06-01, 05:43 PM

look at the forums, there are loads of posts that say how great and awesome ps2 and most features are!

it´s just selective perception! we all agree on most great things, so it´s just a praise and that´s it. but on subjects that we don´t like we want to discuss to see if we can get it changed/Improved of the current design.
sure there is a lot of unnecessary ranting, but a lot of constructive discussion also.

higby and his team would have a hard time improving the game, if we all stop to discuss the things we don´t like.

QFT /w a tad of fix

Dartan

2012-06-01, 05:43 PM

It's because it looks amazing that people are so vocal about minor things. If it looked like crap we'd all have moved on by now.

I just said that in the post right above yours..

p0intman

2012-06-01, 05:46 PM

Ahriman Corps were arrogant assholes. Cheaters too.

arrogant assholes, yes.. cheaters? Uh.. not as far as I've seen.

Finally. A man that speaks reason. All these grizzled old PS vets need to calm the F down. This game looks amazing.

Hey, fuck you. I don't like the fact that a game I've enjoyed for a long time is being butchered to cater to battlefield and CoD assholes.

Raymac

2012-06-01, 05:50 PM

Hey, fuck you. I don't like the fact that a game I've enjoyed for a long time is being butchered to cater to battlefield and CoD assholes.

Butchered? Hardly. Planetside, as great as it was, had flaws beyond just the netcode. And it's a myth that the game is being catered to any one group.

Eyeklops

2012-06-01, 05:55 PM

Agree

Gonefshn

2012-06-01, 06:00 PM

Butchered? Hardly. Planetside, as great as it was, had flaws beyond just the netcode. And it's a myth that the game is being catered to any one group.

Agree. Planetside is my Favorite game I've ever played with nothing even having a close second. I played over a period of 8 years and saw every different iteration of the game.

Basically I'm about as grizzled of an old Vet as you could find but I LOVE what they are doing with this game as a whole. There are as many vets that love this new game as hate it so chill lol.

CuddlyChud

2012-06-01, 06:10 PM

I'm pretty sure most people are happy with how the game is coming along (me included). Its just that the only real reason to post is if you have a complaint about something. No one posts just to say, "GJ. Keep doing what you're already doing."

Zulthus

2012-06-01, 06:11 PM

Hey, fuck you. I don't like the fact that a game I've enjoyed for a long time is being butchered to cater to battlefield and CoD assholes.

LOL, this +100000

DOUBLEXBAUGH

2012-06-01, 06:13 PM

They're taking the things that didn't work, weren't marketable, we're redundant or obsolete and making them better.

Complete opinion.

Aircraft and flight physics

Who is complaining about this? My only dislike on the subject is forced cockpits, cause I like to see what I'm doing. I mainly used my plane in PS1 for fast transport, and will probably do the same in PS2. So, it was never a big enough issue for me to care to post about. As for the actual flight physics, I've seen no complaints.

TTK
I'm used to kill streaks in BF/COD because you CAN kill more than 2 players at a time. In Planetside, I would often put a lot of time and effort into ONE kill and just before I got the kill, someone would steal (chizow) the kill. Going up against 3 Rexos was an impossible task. There was no way, no matter how good you were that you were going to get those three kills unless maybe you caught them coming up the tower stairs and you plasma spammed them and used HA to finish them off.

While I am admittedly a bit concerned that the TTK is a bit too fast in PS2 I am looking forward to being able to lay down the same ownage in PS2 that I am able to do in the more modern shooters like BF and COD.

I wont have to overclock my FSB (speed hacking) or camp the spawn tubes (Godjoey) to actually have a chance to be somewhere on the leaderboards.

So you only like the change because you were bad at PS1? I was all for slightly faster TTKs, but they seem a little too fast atm.

Flight Ceiling
...OMG really. You're complaining about the newly increased +600m flight ceiling? I think it is amazing. From what I saw in TBs video with higby you could probably safely fly above even the most annoying VS max AA without warning.

I haven't looked back at that thread in a while, but the OP (and most the people that were complaining about it) seemed ok with it once it was explained to them that it was in fact higher than PS1's. They just want to avoid places like Searhus's center were the land was higher than the ceiling.

Boundries.
While I admit that it was nice to plot a course to the objective out in the ocean to avoid enemy AA and useless engagements otw to the objective, I don't see a real loss in not having useless ocean to travel over. See the increased flight ceiling above.

I think its more that they were so far inland and gave a pretty big annoying warning. There is a big border of land around the edges of the cont that are not contained in a hex that they can make the boundaries a little more lenient. They don't have to extend well out over the ocean like they did in PS1, but a little more room would be good.

Sanctuary VS footholds
At first this set me back too, I liked rallying at sanctuary to bring in the large invasion, but when you think about how this caused network logistic problems you can easily see why it was removed.

In the old PS if you got kicked off a continent, your next spawn could only be at an AMS you were bound to or Sanctuary. So while you were regrouping at sanctuary the continent was getting pop locked. You and your buddies were stuck in the warpgate trying to get back in. With the new PS, you can never be denied the continent you want to fight on.

If you took to long regrouping and got locked out of the next cont that was your fault. There was still 9 other conts you and your buddies could goto. Also back at PS launch there was 3-4 conts being fought over at a time, so there was plenty of other targets to choose from. The bigger problem here is only 3 conts.

Once you get pushed back to your foothold now, if the other 2 are pop locked (very likely at prime time) then your stuck trying to fight out of your WG, and probably getting camped.

Concept Art vs. Model
really? next.

/agree

Inventory
Really? you want to run around with your inventory open and swap out that 2nd decimator when your first one ran out of shells it was disposable and your inventory didn't see it as ammo. All while a max is chasing you around the generator. I'll pass.

They could have fixed that this time. If you used the third shot in a Deci and have another in your backpack, it automatically equips it. I will miss the free form "make your own class" inventories from PS1.

Third person
Corner camping? No thanks.

I'm pretty sure everyone is happy this is gone. I was one of the biggest tower whores in PS1, and even idc that its gone. The only complaint most have is with ground vehicles. In the vid clips they have used some 3rd person while driving, but they have stated 3rd person will only be available to aircraft.

Prone
I can see an argument for this, especially since it is more necessary in a modernized FPS with grenade launchers and snipers. Prone isn't for camping its for ducking spam and headshots.

I never read any of the prone threads because idc if it is in or out. So, can't really comment on this one.

Basically the only way we're going to see how all this plays out is to play the game in Beta. Then can make your case.

We need to be vocal now, so the devs start looking into these things from our perspective before beta. The more they are aware of something that is causing concern now, the more likely they are to seriously look at changing it come beta.

So far, when I look at the gameplay footage I am floored. My jaw is on the floor. Personally I can't wait.

We have yet to see a battle. GDC we got to see Higby rocket spam a Mag, have a small 5 on 5 skirmish, and thats about it. Yes the new engine and conts looks pretty, but I can't wait to see an actual battle. That is the only gameplay footage that matters.

Different people like different things. No matter how well the game is done, it will never please everyone, and people will ALWAYS complain. So... stop complaining about complaining?

Zulthus

2012-06-01, 06:13 PM

Tbh many of these grizzled old PS1 vets are going to get owned in PS2. For them it is going to be like going from horse and buggy to a Ferrari. They won't keep up.

It's very naive of you children to think that Planetside is the only FPS we've ever played. ;) Topping the scoreboard on a BF3 match is an easy feat for most of us. Especially for me if you give me a L85A2 or a jet... kiss your ass goodbye :lol:

Hmr85

2012-06-01, 06:14 PM

Tbh many of these grizzled old PS1 vets are going to get owned in PS2. For them it is going to be like going from horse and buggy to a Ferrari. They won't keep up.

Lol, okay... a lot of the old PS1 vets from the dinosaur age do play other fps games. Its not gonna be a problem. If anything it's going to be a rude awakening for a lot of you younger/newer players to PS.

Gonefshn

2012-06-01, 06:15 PM

Tbh many of these grizzled old PS1 vets are going to get owned in PS2. For them it is going to be like going from horse and buggy to a Ferrari. They won't keep up.

Seeing as PS1 was an MMOFPS I think you'd be hard pressed to find a PS1 vet that hasn't played many other shooters. This is a ridiculous statement.
If you never played a game where you can pull as many vehicles and aircraft as you want at the same time your in for a shock and are at a disadvantage. Faster TTK and ADS are small changes to adjust to compared to playing a confined 64 player round shooter and a full on open world shooter with unlimited possibilities.

sylphaen

2012-06-01, 06:22 PM

All these grizzled old PS vets need to calm the F down.

I need help guys.

What is the word to describe a new guy who just arrives in town and start bossing people around/singling them out/acting superior/etc... ?

It just doesn't feel as good replying with an inaccurate word.
:D

Zulthus

2012-06-01, 06:23 PM

I need help guys.

What is the word to describe a new guy who just arrives in town and start bossing people around/singling them out/acting superior/etc... ?

It just doesn't feel as good replying with an inaccurate word.
:D

:rofl::rofl:

Baron

2012-06-01, 06:25 PM

arrogant? check

asshole? check

sweet, i'm in !!

Envenom

2012-06-01, 06:29 PM

Lol, okay... a lot of the old PS1 vets from the dinosaur age do play other fps games. Its not gonna be a problem. If anything it's going to be a rude awakening for a lot of you younger/newer players to PS.

LOL. Ok gramps.

Baneblade

2012-06-01, 06:30 PM

polywomple

2012-06-01, 06:31 PM

requesting thread lock

Gonefshn

2012-06-01, 06:32 PM

I read vets complaining about things in PS2 that is pretty standard for today's gamers. That is why I wonder if PS1 has become an old folks home. (:

Fair. But you have to play the new games to know you don't like them and don't want PS2 to mimic them.

Personally I don't care. Planetside was my favorite game ever, but it was because of the scale and the persistant never-ending fight not the shooting mechanics or the TTK (except with vehicles I loved the super long TTK on tanks).

I love the BF3 shooting mechanics so a game that combines the scale (even bigger now too!) and combined arms possibilities of Planetside with the shooting mechanics of a "modern" shooter sounds like heaven to me!

Razicator

2012-06-01, 06:35 PM

I read vets complaining about things in PS2 that is pretty standard for today's gamers. That is why I wonder if PS1 has become an old folks home. (:

Don't you know?? Old PS2 vets are all now in the nursing homes or retirement homes. We don't stand a chance!

Zulthus

2012-06-01, 06:38 PM

Don't you know?? Old PS2 vets are all now in the nursing homes or retirement homes. We don't stand a chance!

We lure them in like that, then their faces are :eek: when they're getting owned by 'grumpy ol' gramps'!

Gonefshn

2012-06-01, 06:46 PM

I fully expect the Planetside 1 community at large to be abhorrent at PS2. It was no different the first time around.

The best players are going to be the people who accept its flaws and mechanics the easiest, which will largely be new players whose minds haven't been spoiled with all kinds of expectations and biases.

accepting mechanics as something you enjoy and support has nothing to do with being good at it.

I HAAATTEEE hate hate there could not be much more hate how engineers in BF3 can kill infantry with the RPG/SMAW but lemme tell ya I can wreck shit with them anyway.

Bobby Shaftoe

2012-06-01, 06:57 PM

I don't think you understand the new cert system.
You mean the part where I can spend limitless cert points on everything in game, the part where Mr Higby himself, said you can eventually cert everything?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=onvySU5NkFo#t=187s

Everything being the sum total of all certifications available in PS2, every single weapon, vehicle, addon, perk and variation... that particular part of the new cert system?

Is this shovel to the face approach still too subtle for you to understand?

So unless your definition of 'everything' is different to EVERYONE elses, I think you might want to recheck the new cert system yourself.

Envenom

2012-06-01, 07:02 PM

You mean the part where I can spend limitless cert points on everything in game, the part where Mr Higby himself, said you can eventually cert everything?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=onvySU5NkFo#t=187s

Everything being the sum total of all certifications available in PS2, every single weapon, vehicle, addon, perk and variation... that particular part of the new cert system?

Is this shovel to the face approach still too subtle for you to understand?

So unless your definition of 'everything' is different to EVERYONE elses, I think you might want to recheck the new cert system yourself.

You can only use one at a time.....

http://www.planetside-universe.com/media.php?view=2133

Blackwolf

2012-06-01, 07:04 PM

We have been privy to some pretty early content releases and after each and every one, some of you guys complain about the most mundane stuff.

I ask you, are we looking at the same game? Because the game I'm looking at looks fucking ridiculous. Planetside was the best game ever made and a lot of the guys who worked on it are working on Planetside 2. Its not like they didn't learn from the first one. They're taking the things that didn't work, weren't marketable, we're redundant or obsolete and making them better.

Aircraft and flight physics

Personally I found this to be hysterical. The sad part is the poster is being sarcastic but is seriously complaining. While I do share some concerns about letting good VS pilots like AC (armehnian corps) have an aircraft that can pitch 90 degrees without losing lift, I am STOKED to fly in this game.

I was a pretty avid pilot and flying in PS1 was like flying a hockey puck. As one of the orginal devs said, it was like literally moving a camera around in Z-space with WASD. Now there are flight physics, flares, free look and customized huds for starters. We're not even talking about the certification and skills that will allow you to tweak your aircraft to be different in terms of turning radius, weapon loadouts and more.

TTK
I'm used to kill streaks in BF/COD because you CAN kill more than 2 players at a time. In Planetside, I would often put a lot of time and effort into ONE kill and just before I got the kill, someone would steal (chizow) the kill. Going up against 3 Rexos was an impossible task. There was no way, no matter how good you were that you were going to get those three kills unless maybe you caught them coming up the tower stairs and you plasma spammed them and used HA to finish them off.

While I am admittedly a bit concerned that the TTK is a bit too fast in PS2 I am looking forward to being able to lay down the same ownage in PS2 that I am able to do in the more modern shooters like BF and COD.

I wont have to overclock my FSB (speed hacking) or camp the spawn tubes (Godjoey) to actually have a chance to be somewhere on the leaderboards.

Flight Ceiling
...OMG really. You're complaining about the newly increased +600m flight ceiling? I think it is amazing. From what I saw in TBs video with higby you could probably safely fly above even the most annoying VS max AA without warning.

Boundries.
While I admit that it was nice to plot a course to the objective out in the ocean to avoid enemy AA and useless engagements otw to the objective, I don't see a real loss in not having useless ocean to travel over. See the increased flight ceiling above.

Sanctuary VS footholds
At first this set me back too, I liked rallying at sanctuary to bring in the large invasion, but when you think about how this caused network logistic problems you can easily see why it was removed.

In the old PS if you got kicked off a continent, your next spawn could only be at an AMS you were bound to or Sanctuary. So while you were regrouping at sanctuary the continent was getting pop locked. You and your buddies were stuck in the warpgate trying to get back in. With the new PS, you can never be denied the continent you want to fight on.

Lets see, what else are you all bitching about....

Concept Art vs. Model
really? next.

Inventory
Really? you want to run around with your inventory open and swap out that 2nd decimator when your first one ran out of shells it was disposable and your inventory didn't see it as ammo. All while a max is chasing you around the generator. I'll pass.

Third person
Corner camping? No thanks.

Prone
I can see an argument for this, especially since it is more necessary in a modernized FPS with grenade launchers and snipers. Prone isn't for camping its for ducking spam and headshots.

Basically the only way we're going to see how all this plays out is to play the game in Beta. Then can make your case.

So far, when I look at the gameplay footage I am floored. My jaw is on the floor. Personally I can't wait.

Forgot about driver controlled main gun on tanks. In a rant about people's rants, you failed to mention one of the biggest ones on these forums! How dare you sir!

Razicator

2012-06-01, 07:06 PM

We lure them in like that, then their faces are :eek: when they're getting owned by 'grumpy ol' gramps'!

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j132/jj52/GranTorino.gif

Ailos

2012-06-01, 07:08 PM

Thumbs up @ OP. I'm reserving most of my complaints 'till Beta. And then I'll be posting them on the official beta forums so my concerns be properly addressed.

I mean, we do get quite a bit of interaction with the devs here, too, but since we're only looking at a screenshot here and a video there, not actually playing it ourselves, I think it's a bit of a knee jerk reaction to say that "OH FUCK, ALL SHIT's BROKEN" simply because the day/night cycle is too fast. I mean FFS, these are all things that can be changed by ADMIN COMMANDS. They can change them on the fly, and that level change is there deliberately so they can tune these things easier.

sylphaen

2012-06-01, 07:20 PM

[...]new players whose minds haven't been spoiled with all kinds of expectations and biases.

Sorry that part struck me as a bit off.

You mean... beginners who never played a FPS or a game ? Right or wrong, valid or not, I do hope you have some expectations or biases for PS2 based on prior personal knowledge otherwise, you are posting on a fansite forum without opinions to share about the game but plenty about the people.
:confused:

Gonefshn

2012-06-01, 07:28 PM

Fortunately for me then that I didn't use the words "enjoy" and "support".

You know what I meant.
the word choice is irrelevant the meaning is the same.

You said people who accept the mechanics the easiest will be the best at it.
Either by accept you meant.
1. You accept it and love it and are behind it's conclusion (enjoy and support)
or
2. You accept it exists as a part of the game (everyone with a brain should fall in this category)

My point is everyone is going to learn the new mechanics on an even playing field the only difference being that most PS vets have played games with more recent shooting mechanics (ADS, Sprint, fast TTK) but most FPS players have not played a shooter with an open world and an unlimited number of vehicles and no rounds. So who is at the disadvantage?

Bobby Shaftoe

2012-06-01, 07:31 PM

Players Prestige (start from scratch) in MW3 all the time and grind right back up killing maxed out players along the way.

Thanks for telling me about a system used in a very small scale, 2-way, round based infantry only game.

I'm sure it'll scale up perfectly into a 2000 man three way clusterfuck with a variety of ground, air and support vehicles.

Saintlycow

2012-06-01, 07:33 PM

I think it looks great.

Then again i'm a battlefield asshole...

Bobby Shaftoe

2012-06-01, 07:34 PM

You can only use one at time.....

http://www.planetside-universe.com/media.php?view=2133

Oh jesus...

How is this different to having a different favourite for a specific purpose?

I wouldn't go CE spamming with a god damn BR40 'super soldier' loadout that had 2 ACEs in it, I'd get a fucking loadout full of ACEs and Field Deployable things and go at it like that. THE EXACT SAME WAY YOU'D PICK THE ENGINEER CLASS.

How do you not see 'Classes' as just being a simplification of Armour/Inventories and not see the problems of having EVERYTHING certed.

In before, 'yeah but you can only do one thing at a time', so please tell me how my BR40 CE spammer now does anything after deploying everything, oh thats right he goes to a terminal to re-equip and just what does your engineer do when you want to change class, oh he goes to a terminal to re-equip.

BR20 = 'super soldier' who spent 80-90% of his certs for infantry combat, nothing else
BR40 = Ultimate Soldier access to everything
PS2 = Ultimate Soldier access to everything

Envenom

2012-06-01, 07:42 PM

Razicator

2012-06-01, 07:45 PM

GhettoPrince

2012-06-01, 07:50 PM

I think the visuals look a lot like Halo, (which is not a bad thing) and the gameplay looked like a sci fi version of battlefield 3, or maybe the COD games, but those are just influences , this game has a lot of soul.

The thing is, I think a lot of people here just have good memories about the original, I'm interested to how people who didn't stay up every other night playing it back in seventh grade will like it.

Gonefshn

2012-06-01, 07:52 PM

Oh jesus...

How is this different to having a different favourite for a specific purpose?

I wouldn't go CE spamming with a god damn BR40 'super soldier' loadout that had 2 ACEs in it, I'd get a fucking loadout full of ACEs and Field Deployable things and go at it like that. THE EXACT SAME WAY YOU'D PICK THE ENGINEER CLASS.

How do you not see 'Classes' as just being a simplification of Armour/Inventories and not see the problems of having EVERYTHING certed.

In before, 'yeah but you can only do one thing at a time', so please tell me how my BR40 CE spammer now does anything after deploying everything, oh thats right he goes to a terminal to re-equip and just what does your engineer do when you want to change class, oh he goes to a terminal to re-equip.

BR20 = 'super soldier' who spent 80-90% of his certs for infantry combat, nothing else
BR40 = Ultimate Soldier access to everything
PS2 = Ultimate Soldier access to everything

even in another thread your failing to see that the difference from the inventory load-outs in PS1 and the Classes in PS2 is your restricted to certain numbers of weapons and deployables in PS2 while your not in PS1. Even within the classes your limited to using certain gear at a time. Meaning bringing CE spam will cut you off from something else. Or as a HA if you want the AV rocket launcher you cant also have the Mini chain gun. In PS1 you could have it all at once.

yes it is a simplification of the loadout system your right. but your missing that it's also more RESTRICTIVE on what you can carry on your person at any given time.

Your also assuming going to a terminal and changing out of engineer will not remove your deployables. The devs could very well make it so when you change class from engineer your mines etc. disappear beta will flesh this stuff out.

Blackwolf

2012-06-01, 07:52 PM

Oh jesus...

How is this different to having a different favourite for a specific purpose?

I wouldn't go CE spamming with a god damn BR40 'super soldier' loadout that had 2 ACEs in it, I'd get a fucking loadout full of ACEs and Field Deployable things and go at it like that. THE EXACT SAME WAY YOU'D PICK THE ENGINEER CLASS.

How do you not see 'Classes' as just being a simplification of Armour/Inventories and not see the problems of having EVERYTHING certed.

In before, 'yeah but you can only do one thing at a time', so please tell me how my BR40 CE spammer now does anything after deploying everything, oh thats right he goes to a terminal to re-equip and just what does your engineer do when you want to change class, oh he goes to a terminal to re-equip.

BR20 = 'super soldier' who spent 80-90% of his certs for infantry combat, nothing else
BR40 = Ultimate Soldier access to everything
PS2 = Ultimate Soldier access to everything

You are an excitable one aren't you?

Difference is your "Engineer" load out can't do shit besides lay down mines spits and whatever else you spam. Get caught by the enemy and dear god in heaven you get your ass handed to you! How much fun would it be to spec into engineering then? "All I get is this SMG, some mechanical toys, and a glue gun?" Have at it.

You won't have access to your engineering crap in an HA suit. You won't have access to your HA gear while in a jump jet suit. You won't have access to your med gear while in your... anything but medic load out. Yet despite this very obvious dilemma that virtually everyone on these forums can see and understand, limited individuals such as yourself still seem to think that this is a major game breaking issue. Yes this is similar to having various favorite load outs for designated situations. Except that you are essentially forced into those designated load outs and you might not always be in situations that favor said load outs, and a terminal isn't always convenient.

You won't see the HA healing himself. Why are you whining? And yes, you are whining. Loudly.

Razicator

2012-06-01, 07:53 PM

Gonefshn

2012-06-01, 08:00 PM

It's more about mindset. Some people could be better at the games they play, but they're being held back by expectations based on previous gaming experiences, which leads them to a state of closed-mindedness. I could see it happening here with ex-PS1 players. Rejecting something too early, being frustrated with how it works without having toyed with it to figure out all its possibilities, etc.

Wait until you see the established PS1 outfits get into this game and you wont find a more ambitious group of people ready to figure out every last nook and cranny of this game. People in PS1 went to INSANE lengths to figure out every last bit about the game to build effective strategies and you can bet no one will be as eager to explore every last inch of the maps and the new gameplay.

PS2 to a Planetside player is our new baby. When it comes out old players are going to go absolutely bonkers figuring every last thing out about the game.

Figment

2012-06-01, 08:54 PM

You are an excitable one aren't you?

Difference is your "Engineer" load out can't do shit besides lay down mines spits and whatever else you spam. Get caught by the enemy and dear god in heaven you get your ass handed to you! How much fun would it be to spec into engineering then? "All I get is this SMG, some mechanical toys, and a glue gun?" Have at it.

You won't have access to your engineering crap in an HA suit. You won't have access to your HA gear while in a jump jet suit. You won't have access to your med gear while in your... anything but medic load out. Yet despite this very obvious dilemma that virtually everyone on these forums can see and understand, limited individuals such as yourself still seem to think that this is a major game breaking issue. Yes this is similar to having various favorite load outs for designated situations. Except that you are essentially forced into those designated load outs and you might not always be in situations that favor said load outs, and a terminal isn't always convenient.

You won't see the HA healing himself. Why are you whining? And yes, you are whining. Loudly.

You aren't very imaginative yourself though, are you?

You are given a likely scenario of someone performing different roles over time in preparation of a hold prior to combat and propose someone might interrupt you at the most vulnerable bit. Without ever realising the most vulnerable bit only happens when you know you can do so, while the consequence of having laid mines, having hacked out gear and playing turrets and destroying terminals and whatever other action carries on into the next life.

In PS1 the effect of your engi role for two minutes can be felt till some time after you log out. You realise that, right? You realise that the position you acquired within one life affects the next engagement, right? You realise that merely being able to open a term and get resupplies, medkits, or change class - which goes for all does around you too- affects the flow of battle? You realise that in PS2 a MAX crash will be infinitely larger as enemies pull far more than was feasible in PS2? You realise that there would be more mines when people get standard access to them, even if they have to change class for it than if not every player has access to mines?

You realise that you are the closed minded person who only considers direct engagement with a single persons single life, rather than a string of people with a string of lives?

Bobby is perhaps being a bit melodramatic, but the effect is far greater than you make it sound.

Yes maybe I can't kill a MAX because I wear no engi class. In ps1 though, if I wasn't certed in AV, I could not become "engi class" next life. If BR40, then I could. In PS2, I could. Or I could bring any alternative to a situation where in ps1 I would have to improvise and do with what limited goods I got access to. In PS2 I got access to all basic alternatives from the start. Improvisation is not needed: just grab counter, next engagement, you win. In ps1 you'd have to overcome that hurdle again.

Huge difference and very obvious.

Kalbuth

2012-06-01, 09:06 PM

Again, how to solve your problem? I still have no answer apart from "return to PS1 system", which, I already told you, isn't gonna happen because of money.

Sry to say, but whining just to whine is useless

Xyntech

2012-06-01, 09:12 PM

Huge difference and very obvious.

Planetside 1 was designed and balanced around BR20 limited certifications. Planetside 2 is being designed and balanced around everyone having free access to all of the classes, all of the time.

Huge difference. Very obvious.

Kurtz

2012-06-01, 09:19 PM

Forgot about driver controlled main gun on tanks. In a rant about people's rants, you failed to mention one of the biggest ones on these forums! How dare you sir!
You are absolutely correct. My apologies.

Bobby Shaftoe

2012-06-01, 10:38 PM

you might not always be in situations that favor said load outs, and a terminal isn't always convenient.

So this applies to PS2, yet somehow never applied to the BR40 super soldier, the one claimed by everyone to do everything at the same time, the thing some people claim to be the very reason these classes without inventories are being implemented.

BR40 was a problem SOE themselves, created, it wasn't the players, I don't understand the design decision to implement the BR40 system straight off the bat and hope to have some sort of semblance of balance later on in the games life.

You yourself, just gave a reason, not always being able to access an equip terminal, and somehow implied BR40s were overpowered despite it yet PS2 soldiers are not.
You're taking the two factors of 'Equip terms' 1: Getting equipment 2: Availability and implying the Availability for PS1 to be ubiquitous(despite them being destructable objects as I mentioned earlier in the topic) and PS2 to be scarce as some sort of balancing factor.

Oh, the HA doesn't need to heal himself, you get regenerating shields, that you will be able to spec into to no doubt boost it's value, damage reduction, recharge rate, so you can keep your gun out now instead of being helpless swapping between med app and bank.

Kurtz

2012-06-02, 08:59 AM

So you only like the change because you were bad at PS1? I was all for slightly faster TTKs, but they seem a little too fast atm.

No, I said in order to drop three rexos you'd have to get the drop and combine SA and HA, as compared to three headshots from one clip in BF.

While I agree that the TTK is a tad fast (especially on vehicles) I am willing to see how it plays out in beta and then lobby for a tweak.

I find the bigger positive is the fact that everyone be rewarded for aim (head shots) instead of rate of fire into a giant hit box.

Baneblade

2012-06-02, 09:19 AM

You mean the part where I can spend limitless cert points on everything in game, the part where Mr Higby himself, said you can eventually cert everything?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=onvySU5NkFo#t=187s

Everything being the sum total of all certifications available in PS2, every single weapon, vehicle, addon, perk and variation... that particular part of the new cert system?

Is this shovel to the face approach still too subtle for you to understand?

So unless your definition of 'everything' is different to EVERYONE elses, I think you might want to recheck the new cert system yourself.

And how long do you suppose that will take, not to mention who is going to actually do it, and then how many of those do you expect to be seeing on a daily basis, or for that matter what effect will it even have if it does become commonplace?

shadow58

2012-06-02, 09:40 AM

People are just passionate about the game and want it to be as good as possible.

Most people here are impressed with how it's shaping up but that doesn't meant they're not gonna voice their concerns over aspects of the game that they think aren't up to par.

Also, prone doesn't have any place in PlanetSide and from what we've seen of the boundaries they are too restrictive. :p

Ieyasu

2012-06-02, 11:28 AM

Planetside was the best game ever made and a lot of the guys who worked on it are working on Planetside 2. Its not like they didn't learn from the first one.

I wasnt aware any of the team that made the original planetside were working on the second. In fact Im pretty sure its a whole new group of devs is it not?

Mechzz

2012-06-02, 11:36 AM

Yes because you can be fully certed in Scythe and be fully certed in everything else, you know, the whole point of that thread. I too can take excerpts from posts and use them out of context to make a point.

That thread http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=41739was so funny! Bobby described an awesome game session then had a proper rant and bitch about it. Weird how different people see the same thing in different ways.

So far PS2 is looking amazing, no other word for it. And no need for prone, none at all.

DrifterBG

2012-06-02, 11:41 AM

People here have to remember this isn't Planetside 1. This is Planetside 2.

I was long time Planetside 1 player that started at launch. My outfit is known because we used tactics, teamwork and we got things done. Not one of us is griping about how it isn't like it used to be. We are all looking at the new system and thinking "how can we use this to our advantage?" and not "how is this holding us back." If you want to sit there and focus on how it sucks, you'll get owned. If you sit there and focus on how you can make it work, you'll flourish.

So we have classes... big deal! What's the difference between classes, and your inventory favourites? If anything, classes allow you to have multiple 'favourites' under a certain theme, give you a skin, and some added perks to go in with customizations. You will have various selections of weapons for that class too, so you're not "stuck" with inferior weapons.

If anything, you should be happy. This avoids the "supersoldier" problem everyone gripes about.

If you want to see it as "restrictive" you can go ahead. This just eliminates team-based operations since you can do it all. You used to be able to carry a MCG for troops, a decimator for the MAX units, and stow away a rocket launcher for vehicles/aircraft. Uhhh... how about no.

You are part of a vast army. Just because you're no longer able to hit everything and make it hurt, isn't restrictive. It forces you to THINK, PLAN your loadout, and make use of those customizations.

Also, no prone = no dolphin diving = enough cod kiddie tears to fuel the game for 9 years.

GreatMazinkaise

2012-06-02, 11:52 AM

People here have to remember this isn't Planetside 1. This is Planetside 2.

It still has to be identifiable as a Planetside game, and that's something that goes beyond skins and faction names. Some elements have the potential to make the game's successor nature rather dubious.

Mechzz

2012-06-02, 11:55 AM

It still has to be identifiable as a Planetside game, and that's something that goes beyond skins and faction names. Some elements have the potential to make the game's successor nature rather dubious.

Yeah, we know how much we all love successor games that are identical to their predecessors, right? No one on these forums would ever support that.
/irony

CuddlyChud

2012-06-02, 11:56 AM

It still has to be identifiable as a Planetside game, and that's something that goes beyond skins and faction names. Some elements have the potential to make the game's successor nature rather dubious.

Well that's where the issue is isn't it? Everyone has different perceptions of what made Planetside great. Personally for me Planetside was just about the 3 empires, massive scale, and vehicle/infantry warfare. Everything else is pretty superfluous. The devs are out to make a fun game, and so far it looks like they're succeeding.

DrifterBG

2012-06-02, 12:11 PM

Well that's where the issue is isn't it? Everyone has different perceptions of what made Planetside great. Personally for me Planetside was just about the 3 empires, massive scale, and vehicle/infantry warfare. Everything else is pretty superfluous. The devs are out to make a fun game, and so far it looks like they're succeeding.

THIS!

Planetside has always been about those things. MASSIVE battles. HUGE armies. VARIOUS attack methods. THREE FACTIONS with their own playstyles.

TR: As much firepower into an area as possible
NC: Staying power/hard hitting
VS: Hit and run, quick movements

From what I've seen, those very same elements have been amplified by HUGE amounts and keep the original things that make planetside great!

If you want to squabble over trivial things like classes, that are necessary for the perks and customizations, then you're stuck in the past and Planetside 1 will always be there. Soon, that gameplay you held so dear may seem small and empty once you look at Planetside 1, and then the sheer scope of Planetside 2.

By focusing on those 'small scale' problems, you might turn into that stubborn kid that wants it HIS way, then sees everyone having a BLAST with the new way, and drop his old ways to join the evolution of the game.

2coolforu

2012-06-02, 12:35 PM

http://i.imgur.com/e3QJo.jpg

Oh, the HA doesn't need to heal himself, you get regenerating shields, that you will be able to spec into to no doubt boost it's value, damage reduction, recharge rate, so you can keep your gun out now instead of being helpless swapping between med app and bank.

ITT People knowing every detail of every modification in the game and just knowing that there will be a set that perfectly supports their point.

Despite the fact that Higby said, at most we will see a +/- 25% difference in ability (RoF/Recharge rate/Armour) between a 5 minute player and a 5 year player.

GreatMazinkaise

2012-06-02, 12:52 PM

Mechzz

2012-06-02, 12:56 PM

Planetside has a meta game and logistics... Planetside 2 appears to gloss over these aspects almost entirely. I'm not talking about classes or inventories or anything so small.

Planetside 2 clearly retains the elements that put it in the same genre as Planetside, but if the strategic metagame doesn't exist and logistics are unimportant, than it can hardly call itself a Planetside game.

Just imagine plotting the sequence of bases you need to take to be able to zero-base your enemy on a continent. Imagine deciding with your spec ops unit where you can strike hardest behind enemy lines to slow their advance.

I think there will be plenty of meta-game, and we'll get excited about it once we see it in action.

p0intman

2012-06-02, 01:03 PM

anyone who says PS1 vets are old deserves to be OS'd... old school style

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0jcgnrMbi1r7jgljo1_500.gif

GreatMazinkaise

2012-06-02, 01:05 PM

Just imagine plotting the sequence of bases you need to take to be able to zero-base your enemy on a continent. Imagine deciding with your spec ops unit where you can strike hardest behind enemy lines to slow their advance.

I think there will be plenty of meta-game, and we'll get excited about it once we see it in action.

This kind of linear strategy bores the Markov commanders, and if your server's commanders are bored, you're gonna have a bad time.

I'd like to see the fights on the separate continents actually effect what happens on other continents.

Mechzz

2012-06-02, 01:27 PM

This kind of linear strategy bores the Markov commanders, and if your server's commanders are bored, you're gonna have a bad time.

I'd like to see the fights on the separate continents actually effect what happens on other continents.

I'm sure that will come eventually, or sooner if Figgy's idea of copy/pasting the 3 conts to make 6 gets taken up. We just need to make the most of what we're given at go-live, and I'm sure it'll keep us happy for long enough to let new continents and inter-continental warfare be established.

DrifterBG

2012-06-02, 01:30 PM

Planetside has a meta game and logistics... Planetside 2 appears to gloss over these aspects almost entirely. I'm not talking about classes or inventories or anything so small.

Planetside 2 clearly retains the elements that put it in the same genre as Planetside, but if the strategic metagame doesn't exist and logistics are unimportant, than it can hardly call itself a Planetside game.

Clearly with the invention of the hex system, where EVERYTHING is capturable, bases have multiple capture points you need to get to take over a base, and the facts galaxies can be deployed as forward bases completely removes any meta games and strategic elements... yes Mazin, you must be right.

Why, oh why did they remove destroyable generators and pointless ANT runs as the meta game. WHY DID THEY REMOVE THESE BATTLE ELIMINATING THINGS?!?!

Geez, sometimes I think you ignore the obvious on purpose...

DrifterBG

2012-06-02, 01:34 PM

I'm sure that will come eventually, or sooner if Figgy's idea of copy/pasting the 3 conts to make 6 gets taken up. We just need to make the most of what we're given at go-live, and I'm sure it'll keep us happy for long enough to let new continents and inter-continental warfare be established.

See, I'm against this only for the simple reason that I usually only fought on the same continents over and over again. Hossin... I've BARELY ever fought on hossin because I was too busy holding the enemy on Cyssor, Hossin or Esamir...

So many contients I barely got to see... I'd rather just have the three to start so we can have those epic battles, spec ops gameplay, and removal of ghosthacks on far away continents.

3 continents to start, nicely populated, good large scale battles where it's not 2 empires going at it and the third empire coming and douching one off.

I WANT THREE WAYS!! GIVE ME THREE WAYS!! Giggidy..

GreatMazinkaise

2012-06-02, 01:44 PM

I'm not ignoring shit... on the surface the replacement systems seem to favor winning everything by weight of numbers. Obviously it's a bit of an unknown at this point since there's never been enough players in game to actually test capture mechanics and such, but an educated guess would suggest that that is the case.

The three way stalemate in the center of the map should occur most of the time; beta has the opportunity to prove that wrong.

Here's laying out the logic better:

1) Spec ops team decides to assault back line base. They've got the tools, they've got the talent.

2) Spec ops team successfully routes the handful of defenders on one of the capture points and is able to successfully capture it, maybe even another.

3) AI Mission generator finally notices this and tells a significant number of zerglings to defend the base.

4) Zerg shows up and spec ops successfully defend the two points that they're able to successfully cover; the rest of the zerglings take points 3-6 or some other arbitrary number and recap it with minimal effort. The vastly superior spec ops can't do dick because they don't have the manpower to cap most of the base at once.

You can't even really change the linear progress of the fighting on one continent, let alone the whole world.

KTNApollo

2012-06-02, 01:46 PM

Prone could be an infiltrator-only cert that requires you to sacrifice your cloak and can only be used with a long range sniper rifle...but yeah everything else I agree.

Mechzz

2012-06-02, 01:46 PM

Zekeen

2012-06-02, 01:49 PM

On a continental level the game is a 24/7 stalemate. Won't stop us having fun :groovy:

And in PS1, at least when I played, weight of numbers won, with smart-guy black ops teams helping nudge things one way or the other.

Hehehe, I remember this. a hundred guys take over a continent, so 2 black ops squads hot drop other continents drawing them out, and the larger numbers would sometimes get slaughtered by the lesser, even if they won. Lots of xp out there when all ya gotta do is fire into a mob of people.

DrifterBG

2012-06-02, 01:55 PM

lol, in no way will it be a central stalemate. I will be participating in capturing behind-the-lines hexes, I will be shuttling people to the front lines, I will be flying in my scythe doing strafing runs or dogfighting.

Yes, there is a strategic meta game, but all the roles you play are in essence a strategic metagame. Do you do the base defense metagame? The offensive metagame? The black ops metagame? the air fighter metagame? the tank gunner metagame? The pure support meta game? The squad leader metagame? the midfield fighter metagame? the infiltration metagame?

All of them take teamwork, coordination, strategy and intelligence if you're going to do it right.

GreatMazinkaise

2012-06-02, 01:56 PM

On a continental level the game is a 24/7 stalemate. Won't stop us having fun :groovy:

And in PS1, at least when I played, weight of numbers won, with smart-guy black ops teams helping nudge things one way or the other.

Don't get me wrong, weight of numbers winning is not inherently bad, but there should be a threshold. Spartiates may well be the equivalent of ten men, but one Spartan still has a lot of trouble with twenty or thirty.

The capture mechanics don't really seem to allow for the fact that such Spartiates exist.

DrifterBG

2012-06-02, 02:25 PM

Bobby Shaftoe

2012-06-02, 02:26 PM

And how long do you suppose that will take.

Time is not a good limiting factor viz; huge numbers of people being CR5 in PS1 and there being a large number of BR40s, there would be even more if the game was still well populated.

ITT People knowing every detail of every modification in the game.

Despite the fact that Higby said, at most we will see a +/- 25% difference in ability (RoF/Recharge rate/Armour) between a 5 minute player and a 5 year player.

Well lets see what some obvious variables of RECHARGING SHIELDS might be.

Strength of the shield (or damage mitigation)
Recharge rate of the shield
Delay before recharging

It's funny that people have said that PS2 is now more about skill, yet there was never any power difference in a brand new player and a 9 year vet, yet it's been said there's up to a 25% difference in 'bare' certs and fully specced out ones.

The PS1 BR40 had a fuckton of experience of game mechanics but his gun or vehicle was never any better than the BR1 newbie just starting the game, yet everyone whined about those 'super soldiers', whilst the PS2 'BR40' now actually have a 25% advantage on top of their game experience and it's all okey-dokey, especially when that 25% advantage when scaled up confers an even bigger advantage in actual fights.

Access to everything means there is no scarcity and no choices to be made, you've got access to everything you need for any situation you're about to enter into. There is only a 'soft limit' via resources to prevent 665 people hopping into aircav (which could be fun) which will no doubt be even more OP than in PS1 dominating the area around a base, camping the exits, having 1 galaxy land and everyone just hops out and into their prefered fully specced out class for a base assault.
The only way to stop that is make Air prohibitively expensive or AA extremely powerful (this plz) and then you get the AirChavs riddling you with 12mm and gibbing you with rocket spam on the forums for suggesting they get denied their god-given right to farm anyone that isn't 2 feet off the ground.

I'm advocating a proper combined arms, team work oriented game, with outfits working together to cover each others weaknesses, what weaknesses will there be once you've got everything? The only time this is really going to happen, is in the early life of the game when everyone (people/outfits) is still 'specialising'. People (mostly) loved the early days of PS despite it's flaws, I want PS2 to last as long as the original did but they're going to make it hard for themselves when someone joins 3 years down the line and has to fight against people with access to everything, a wealth of game experience AND having an actual 'power' advantage over them.

Bittervet Bastards may post huge diatribes like the above but that's because some have played PS1 for NINE YEARS... they see stuff being implemented like 3-ways; which led to stale fights, no lattice/off cont links; so now you have to fly your 'spec ops' right OVER the frontline and many other things that actually REMOVE options/tactics/strats from the game and you shout us down for pointing it out!

We're passionate about the game and want PS2 to be even better and so when we have concerns for the game because of design decisions that replicate 'off' things from PS1 we want to try and help point it out and if possible suggest alternatives or mitigate some of the worse aspects of it because we're looking at things in the long term. It's not a case of 'hurr we're better than you', it's a case of we've seen this before and it didn't work out well.

GreatMazinkaise

2012-06-02, 02:38 PM

Are you complaining for the sake of complaining?

I could have sworn you were complaining about the lack of strategic metagames, and now you're saying a small group can't hold off an army because there's more than one capture point...

I'm complaining about both actually...

The macro metagame is linear and predictable whereas at the micro level numbers trump all. These are the kinds of things that dumb down the game; minutiae like classes, inventory, etc are almost inconsequential by comparison.

The kicker, of course, is that they can use their existing systems and tweak them to make things interesting... more continents, meaningful resource denial, non-headcount related capturing, alternate ways of denying the use of spawns and terminals, and a lattice system would make things far more interesting.

Some of this stuff they can fix during beta just by tweaking numbers (resource gain from territories and consumable costs)... I hope they do. I also hope that the linear gameplay suggested by what we know isn't all there is.

DrifterBG

2012-06-02, 02:46 PM

GreatMazinkaise

2012-06-02, 02:52 PM

Hmm I will agree with you there.

That being said, with the way things are seemingly laid out, it'll take a LOT longer for the rinse and repeat gameplay from Planetside 1.

Lack of gens will make things infinitely better since it resorted to simply "blow the gen take the base"

As someone who has defended the generators from their own side on many occasions and has become fed up with it in T:A, I totally agree with that.

If you can still blow tubes, terminals, or any other necessary equipment it would be quite welcome.

2coolforu

2012-06-02, 03:00 PM

Time is not a good limiting factor viz; huge numbers of people being CR5 in PS1 and there being a large number of BR40s, there would be even more if the game was still well populated.

Well lets see what some obvious variables of RECHARGING SHIELDS might be.

Strength of the shield (or damage mitigation)
Recharge rate of the shield
Delay before recharging

It's funny that people have said that PS2 is now more about skill, yet there was never any power difference in a brand new player and a 9 year vet, yet it's been said there's up to a 25% difference in 'bare' certs and fully specced out ones.

The PS1 BR40 had a fuckton of experience of game mechanics but his gun or vehicle was never any better than the BR1 newbie just starting the game, yet everyone whined about those 'super soldiers', whilst the PS2 'BR40' now actually have a 25% advantage on top of their game experience and it's all okey-dokey, especially when that 25% advantage when scaled up confers an even bigger advantage in actual fights.

Access to everything means there is no scarcity and no choices to be made, you've got access to everything you need for any situation you're about to enter into. There is only a 'soft limit' via resources to prevent 665 people hopping into aircav (which could be fun) which will no doubt be even more OP than in PS1 dominating the area around a base, camping the exits, having 1 galaxy land and everyone just hops out and into their prefered fully specced out class for a base assault.
The only way to stop that is make Air prohibitively expensive or AA extremely powerful (this plz) and then you get the AirChavs riddling you with 12mm and gibbing you with rocket spam on the forums for suggesting they get denied their god-given right to farm anyone that isn't 2 feet off the ground.

I'm advocating a proper combined arms, team work oriented game, with outfits working together to cover each others weaknesses, what weaknesses will there be once you've got everything? The only time this is really going to happen, is in the early life of the game when everyone (people/outfits) is still 'specialising'. People (mostly) loved the early days of PS despite it's flaws, I want PS2 to last as long as the original did but they're going to make it hard for themselves when someone joins 3 years down the line and has to fight against people with access to everything, a wealth of game experience AND having an actual 'power' advantage over them.

Bittervet Bastards may post huge diatribes like the above but that's because some have played PS1 for NINE YEARS... they see stuff being implemented like 3-ways; which led to stale fights, no lattice/off cont links; so now you have to fly your 'spec ops' right OVER the frontline and many other things that actually REMOVE options/tactics/strats from the game and you shout us down for pointing it out!

We're passionate about the game and want PS2 to be even better and so when we have concerns for the game because of design decisions that replicate 'off' things from PS1 we want to try and help point it out and if possible suggest alternatives or mitigate some of the worse aspects of it because we're looking at things in the long term. It's not a case of 'hurr we're better than you', it's a case of we've seen this before and it didn't work out well.

Dude, I played Planetside from the beginning. If everyone went aircav I'd have a field day in my skyguard, my grind would be from ear to ear if I saw a sky full of jets.

And FYI 25% scaled up doesn't make for a bigger advantage, 25% is the same proportion no matter how great the value is.

I'll also give you the fact that shields can be altered to have faster regeneration rate. But that doesn't give any grounds for what you said which was, if I go back and check;

"Oh, the HA doesn't need to heal himself, you get regenerating shields, that you will be able to spec into to no doubt boost it's value, damage reduction, recharge rate, so you can keep your gun out now instead of being helpless swapping between med app and bank. "

Well no, you'd be able to spec one of those things at a time, with the others losing power as a result. A faster recharging shield would have less power so you'd lose in a one on one fight against a person of equal skill with the same weapons and armor.

You have no idea how much you will go down into HP and require a medic, medics will be required no matter what to get people revived near the front lines.

The cert system has a lot of flexibility in it too, noone on EVE has every cert. They could make some certed abilities take months to learn, require thousands of cert points. You seem to think that everyone is going to have everything when it's not the case at all. Everyone has some semblance to the bare bones classes with absolutely no diversity or specialization, from the small amount of video we've seen you can obviously see you can change the cloaker from a ninja-style class to a shotgun class or whatnot. The lightning can be an AA vehicle, AT vehicle or all-round. People will have to spec into each one which could require months or years for each to become fully diversified.

Bobby Shaftoe

2012-06-02, 04:50 PM

And FYI 25% scaled up doesn't make for a bigger advantage, 25% is the same proportion no matter how great the value is.

Arbitrary very basic example [10v10] 10 damage per shot, 100hp vs 125hp as the only variable:

http://s15.postimage.org/wlvkrs2sb/vetvstandard.jpg

As shown, you may have a 25% INITIAL advantage in a single attribute but that conveys into a greater overall advantage as a result. You add in additional bonuses to damage, even with a corresponding reduction in hp (keeping a total 25% [eg 10%hp, 15%dmg]) means the vets could still 'instagib' even with 9 instead of 10 troops.

Remember, this is a perfect fire focus/shift target minimal overkill. In game this simplifies into faster tkk on target for the vets and slower for a newbies. 1 v 1 a newbie would never win. This ties into the longevity of the game, how long does the newbie have to fight at a power disadvantage for? In one specific role, maybe a month, what if they want to try something else, back to the disadvantage again. You then say, well all 3 Empires will have high level players to balance it out... no, that just means newbies on all Empires have to fight at a disadvantage.

You then say, 'well if the newbie is really skillful, they can still win', yes, in which case why are these bonuses in the game if skill is meant to be the deciding factor, why does a newbie have to fight at a disadvantage to someone, simply because they haven't played as long.

It's worse than the BR40 situation in PS1, a 9 year BR40 vet HA weapon was the same as a 1 minute old BR1 newbies HA weapon, yet you're all cool with the PS2 system and having better weapons because they now can't carry an ACE (counterable with jammers) or top up their health after a fight!

GuyFawkes

2012-06-02, 04:57 PM

Have to agree with Bobby here , I hope the game does well but I go with the side of caution on many things . The devs need to always look at the game from a new player perspective. Whatever may appear cool and awesome at first glance can quickly turn into a turn off.
You multiply the 25% possible improvements into a 3 yr vet outfit squad and that might as well be just be god mode.

2coolforu

2012-06-02, 05:10 PM

Why would one empire have all maxed out vets and one empire have none? If you want an example closer to what we would see in a real world situation then compare it in damage/weapon terms.

Player 1: 125 hp Player 2: 100 hp

Weapon damage: 16 per shot (Guess at an assault rifle damage)

Shot 1: 109/84
Shot 2: 93/68
Shot 3: 77/52
Shot 4: 61/36
Shot 5: 45/20
Shot 6: 29/4
Shot 7: 13/0

So it confers a one shot advantage, now 25% is the maximum difference we've seen quoted. This is the amount a player who's had 5 years game time can expect to get as an advantage and it gives them a one shot advantage, an advantage of about 0.1-0.2 seconds depending on the RoF of the gun.

Now obviously I've just pulled these numbers out of my ass to get an idea, but 6-7 shots from an AR sounds reasonable to me for a standard TTK.

For damage

Player 1: 100 HP Player 2: 100 HP
Damage: 020 DMG 025 DMG

Once again the vet will have a one shot advantage, not too overwhelming I think. It's a fair price to gain a large diversified customisation and certing system, I'm sure the magnitude of improvement a veteran can gain will be subject to balance during beta.

Not to mention that the cert system is going to undergo an exponential relationship if its anything like EVE, meaning you can very quickly close the gap, perhaps gaining a 20% damage increase in 1 year, whereas 25% takes 5 years. A 5% difference is nothing, changes in ping will matter far more than that.

ringring

2012-06-02, 05:26 PM

I wasnt aware any of the team that made the original planetside were working on the second. In fact Im pretty sure its a whole new group of devs is it not?

erm, (memory failure) John Whatshisname did the ps engine and now works for NVidia and is consulting physx. hang on while I google.... John Ratcliffe

not exacrtly on the team but close (at least closer than me certainly)

Bobby Shaftoe

2012-06-02, 05:28 PM

Why would one empire have all maxed out vets and one empire have none?

You missed the part when I mentioned the relationship of this for the long term life of the game, why should a new player NO MATTER THEIR EMPIRE CHOICE have to, not only learn the game mechanics but also have to deal with inferior weapons whilst doing so, it's a barrier to entry.

Let me break it down into the simplest terms:

PS1: Old (high level) players have in addition to experience, a power advantage because of BR40
PS2: Old (high level) players have in addition to experience, a power advantage because of all certs/upgrades

In both games, old players have an advantage in addition to game experience, regardless of the scale of advantage it is still present, it was bad in PS1, yet by some bizarre set of double standards, it's totally fine in PS2!

Remember these bonuses are before we even take into account the balancing between all three factions' weapons and equipment!

2coolforu

2012-06-02, 05:49 PM

In Planetside 1 a Br20 had a huge advantage over a BR1, you could get transport and have medapp + engineer which meant a lower rank player had zero chance in open combat if there was plenty of cover to hide and heal behind.

It's an MMO, there has to be some sense of improvement and customization. There is a leveling system and a certification system that tries to avoid pure power and concentrate more of diversification just as the certification system in Planetside did. If anything the abilities of having a med app + engineering + AV + Special Assault + HA gave a far greater advantage than 25% imho.

You also completely missed the spirit of my statement, why would one side in a large battle all have 125hp, or 25 damage rather than 20 and the other side have no advantage. The veterans are going to be more or less distributed evenly throughout the empires by the law of averages, it's simple. In a one-on-one fight a veteran has a one shot advantage as I showed. That's far better in my opinion that the new guy not having a med app + engineer tools + decimator + heavy assault weapon or what not that a day one player in Planetside would be missing.

Bobby Shaftoe

2012-06-02, 07:16 PM

In Planetside 1 a Br20 had a huge advantage over a BR1, you could get transport and have medapp + engineer which meant a lower rank player had zero chance in open combat (1)if there was plenty of cover to hide and heal behind.

It's an MMO, there has to be some sense of improvement and customization. There is a leveling system and a certification system that tries to avoid pure power and concentrate more of diversification just as the certification system in Planetside did.(2) If anything the abilities of having a med app + engineering + AV + Special Assault + HA gave a far greater advantage than 25% imho.

(3)You also completely missed the spirit of my statement

(1) Requiring specific circumstances to actually use your 'support' certs doesn't mean you're OP with them.

(2) They fully certed into infantry combat, in a game that was all about massive Infantry/Vehicle fighting, they specialised into one of those playstyles, requiring transport/rezzing/hacking support to do their thing. Many games have methods to keep you in the overall fight longer with heal mechanics, why was it so bad in PS1? The whole premise of med/eng making them OP is silly because they're at short range (due to 80% of fights being inside bases/towers, design problem, not cert problem) and they have to get into cover, pull out their med, then eng and all the while you're doing what? It's your problem if you're going to give them time to do that, not the cert system.
'Yeah but they're behind a corner so can 3rd person me', that was a problem with the 3rd person mechanic, not the cert system. Can you imagine how much slower PS1 fights would be without a basic selfheal/repair mechanism available? That would relegate people into being healbots standing around whilst everyone blobs the medics.

A BR 8 or 9 could have RExo, HA, med and eng. Thats all you needed to have a 'fair' fight with them, then it was down to 'skill', technically all you needed was HA/RExo in a straight up fight, BR3.

I've also said in other posts/threads that they could just tweak the cert costs/numbers et voila, no more super soldier.

(3) The spirit of your statement isn't taking the long term larger view into account, I've already said that every newbie (because there will be a high turn over of players, otherwise how will it succeed?) regardless of allegiance will be at an actual combat (the most important part of the game!) disadvantage.

You're just trading the 'out of combat sustainability' of the slow paced PS1 for outright 'faster killing' in the faster paced PS2. How do you even try to balance this before even taking into account each factions differing weapons!

2coolforu

2012-06-02, 07:30 PM

(1) Requiring specific circumstances to actually use your 'support' certs doesn't mean you're OP with them.

(2) They fully certed into infantry combat, in a game that was all about massive Infantry/Vehicle fighting, they specialised into one of those playstyles, requiring transport/rezzing/hacking support to do their thing. Many games have methods to keep you in the overall fight longer with heal mechanics, why was it so bad in PS1? The whole premise of med/eng making them OP is silly because they're at short range (due to 80% of fights being inside bases/towers, design problem, not cert problem) and they have to get into cover, pull out their med, then eng and all the while you're doing what? It's your problem if you're going to give them time to do that, not the cert system.
'Yeah but they're behind a corner so can 3rd person me', that was a problem with the 3rd person mechanic, not the cert system. Can you imagine how much slower PS1 fights would be without a basic selfheal/repair mechanism available? That would relegate people into being healbots standing around whilst everyone blobs the medics.

A BR 8 or 9 could have RExo, HA, med and eng. Thats all you needed to have a 'fair' fight with them, then it was down to 'skill', technically all you needed was HA/RExo in a straight up fight, BR3.

I've also said in other posts/threads that they could just tweak the cert costs/numbers et voila, no more super soldier.

(3) The spirit of your statement isn't taking the long term larger view into account, I've already said that every newbie (because there will be a high turn over of players, otherwise how will it succeed?) regardless of allegiance will be at an actual combat (the most important part of the game!) disadvantage.

You're just trading the 'out of combat sustainability' of the slow paced PS1 for outright 'faster killing' in the faster paced PS2. How do you even try to balance this before even taking into account each factions differing weapons!

If you don't think that having eng + med gave you a collosal advantage in 90% of battle situations then you're just being completely obtuse. It was not hard to break off from a combat situation, if you had med+eng that meant full hp, especially easy to do in outdoors/long range battles and just as easily done in corridor fighting if you weren't afraid to cut it close with your weapon draw times.

What it meant for a new guy is if he allowed combat to break for even 3-4 seconds he lost the battle. If he got into a situation wherein the opponent could break combat for the time it took to holster a weapon and draw a medapp (about 1.5 seconds) then he would lose the fight.

I played low BR characters and high BR characters, I notice as a br1-8 char I get about a 1:1 KDR, as a BR25 character I got 2-3:1 KDR operating still as an infantryman. This is not even counting the effect and advantages that 3 implants could give you, second wind, pshield + audio amp could provide a mountainous advantage over an opponent.

Now the point I'm making is, if you are saying all this is balanced because the newbie could defeat this by fighting in situations that denied the use of med app, how is that any freaking different to fighting in a situation where you land 1 more shot than your opponent. I'd say it's far easier to land an extra shot than it is to set up situations to deny implant and med app use.

Bobby Shaftoe

2012-06-02, 09:01 PM

(1)I notice as a br1-8 char I get about a 1:1 KDR, as a BR25 character I got 2-3:1 KDR operating still as an infantryman. This is not even counting the effect and advantages that (2)3 implants could give you, second wind, pshield + audio amp could provide a mountainous advantage over an opponent.

Now the point I'm making is, if you are saying all this is balanced because the newbie could defeat this by fighting in situations that denied the use of med app, how is that any freaking different to fighting in a situation where you land 1 more shot than your opponent. (3)I'd say it's far easier to land an extra shot than it is to set up situations to deny implant and med app use.

(1) I think that's pretty indicative that a low BR could still do well, BR25 let you use more weapons for various situations, you yourself said there has to be progression, in PS1 that was being able to be effective in more situations, which is no different to PS2 system of putting certs into specific classes.
(2) Implants can be disabled (which I believe are making a return in PS2, can they be disabled?)
(3) That's the whole point, why should a newbie HAVE to land an extra shot using the exact same equipment! In PS1 in a straight up fight with the same gun he just had to hit you the same number of times to kill you, as you did him, in PS2 he has to hit you more times! If you bring up healing/repping, then your shields in PS2 come into play too, yours will no doubt recharge faster, be stronger or have less downtime. He still has to do the same things in PS2 as he did in PS1 AND also hit you more!

BR8 wasn't a huge task to achieve, yet you were then on even grounding with the 'super soldiers', 6 cert points put you on the same sustainability footing, you don't know how many certs you have to invest in PS2 to reach parity with some maxed out vet, yet NONE OF YOU ARE CONCERNED about that balance aspect whilst still screaming about a loadout you could fight on equal terms within a day or two of play. (or an hour nowdays, since bep inflation)

Your imbalances in PS1 are still present in PS2 yet for some reason you don't see them.

BattsTR

2012-06-03, 01:54 AM