Sniping mechanics

[Galapogos]

I realize this discussion has been brought up before, but I figured I might as well start another thread for this topic since the devs have elaborated a little more on this recently, and the other thread is now months old. So, anyways, do you guys want to see more modern mechanics which allow snipers to move their body and the rifle without major penalties to accuracy, other than the rifle swaying when they are not holding their breath? Or, would you like to see the ps1 mechanic in which you have to be crouched and you have to set up and time your shots instead of keeping your target in your sights? Or something in between?

Personally, I like the ps1 style because it takes some practice and makes sniping more challenging, but I could see some of the lighter sniper rifles allowing for more movement.

[Bags]

With OSOK they should definitely be hard to use, doubt we'll see it that way.

[The noob]

With OSOK they should definitely be hard to use, doubt we'll see it that way.

That's only been confirmed against Light Assaults and Infiltrators, and if either gets headshot, they're during it wrong as I see it. Medics and Engineers might need more (perhaps they have medium armor?)

[Jamini]

Personally I prefer a combination of both.

Higher-damage snipers should have a hefty barrel sway penalty for moving or changing targets, coupled with a low magazine size to offset extreme stopping power and range.

Automatic snipers should allow much greater movement and larger clips at the cost of having lower damage and effective range.

[Blackwolf]

I don't much care personally, so long as the principle feeling of sniping remains the same.

Snipers take time to aim their shots and I think PS1's system reflected that as accurately as it could, with the possible exception of sniper duels in which snipers would crouch walk sidewise while shooting each other with a slightly enlarged CoF in the hopes of hitting each other while evading enemy shots.

Despite the fact that this was pretty unrealistic, it still reflected counter sniper tactics to a degree given the limited mechanics of the game.

Doesn't look like we'll have a CoF while zoomed in on targets, so chances are we'll have gun sway and the like to compensate. Personally I like this idea better, knowing approximately where the shot is going to go when I pull the trigger rather then seeing an area where it might land. Means that compensating for gravity will likely require as much time and preparation as PS1's system, if not more. Which balances out the fact that 1 shot kills are entirely possible with this new system.

All in all I think the system will lead to less snipers. PS1's dumbed down version was far easier to just whip out the rifle and crouch to shoot a target real quick before packing it and moving to a new spot. While at the same time it will probably be more rewarding, since MAX suits are potential victims now with head shots. Also means that being counter sniped is a huge risk, since we'll have to be stationary to shoot, and aim our shots well. A sniper you don't see can kill you without warning, something I don't like so much but it would put a heavier emphasis on thinking before acting.

[Fable]

I really like how rifle sway works in BF3 right now. Same with how the sniper rifles themeselves work, except they would need higher TTK since this game is different. But I can imagine the rest being very similar and fit into the gameplay of PS2.

[Mepper]

I like the PS1 way over an easier way. Simply because having a lot of snipers in a game kinda sux. If you have a great aim, and a lot of skill with this particular way of sniping it should be rewarded. But there shouldn't be too much sniping in the game. Being shot by some random dude a gazzilion meters away every time you enter a large open area isn't fun at all.
So definetely no easy to use snipers, and no hitscan snipers.

[Haro]

Honestly, I don't see why we can't have both. Based off of TB's commentary vid, there are a lot of sniper rifles planned for the game (I believe saw 3, and they may have plans for more.) I could see one marksman rifle with low movement penalties but no one-shot kills, less zoom, more drop, etc. Similarly, I think there should be heavy rifles that really penalize movement, but are much more accurate at long range. And I mean looong range. I'd love to see some 500m, even 1000m sniping, though it should be remarkable difficult with bullet drop and travel time.

I'd rather not see CoD quick scoping, and I really don't think it will be in their. That's all part of clashing CoD design philosophies as the games have pushed for more close-combat, arena-style games but have tried to hold onto the sniper weapons catagory. It's really a rather horrific, Frankenstein's monster-style of playing.

Also, attachments may feature a lot in the style. It seems likely that at least some sniper rifles could be outfitted with a variety of scopes for medium to extreme ranges. Similarly, I could see plenty of addons that benefit recoil, precision, and rate of fire, but I think all of this could be balanced out because of the one sight, one attachment, one upgrade limit.

[RNFB]

PS1's sniping was awful. Heavily penalizing your aim when moving to try to shoot zig-zagging and sporadic targets is just silly. It's pretty much impossible to place your aim ahead of time, so your shot goes where you want it to, because everyone moves sporadically and it's impossible to predict.

[Blackwolf]

PS1's sniping was awful. Heavily penalizing your aim when moving to try to shoot zig-zagging and sporadic targets is just silly. It's pretty much impossible to place your aim ahead of time, so your shot goes where you want it to, because everyone moves sporadically and it's impossible to predict.

Was a specialty of mine. You have to factor in things like speed and angle and yes it was difficult but if you moved your mouse slowly you could keep the reticule at a decent size, predict bullet travel time, and get a clean shot off by taking a chance and just shooting.

This system can be much more difficult depending on how drastic the bullet drop and sway is. PS1 IMO was almost a hit-scan system at how strait forward it was.

[Mepper]

It's pretty much impossible to place your aim ahead of time, so your shot goes where you want it to, because everyone moves sporadically and it's impossible to predict.

That is just exactly how such things work in the real world. If you would remove bullet drop and travel and make hitscan snipers, sniping would be 10 times as easy, and everyone would start doing so.
Which obviously leads to very boring and campy gameplay, which I do not want in this game.

[Sappy]

I really enjoyed PS1's sniping mechanic because you either had to predict where someone was going to move or wait till they stood still. If someone was aware of you, you probably wouldnt be able to hit them, and thats the way a sniper should work. In a game as large as planetside, making sniping too easy will be a huge problem.

[Gonefshn]

Planetside 1 sniping was incredibly fun. I prefer it over sniping in any other title.

Just the way it was handled in that game was genious and just like the post before mine it made you play a sniper like a real sniper.

[Death2All]

I'd prefer a PS1 style where it was pretty difficult to use at first. Considering how the TTK has been lowered significantly and the inclusion of One shot kills, I'd like it to be as difficult as possible for Snipers to get kills.

Especially since this game is most like going to attract the CoD 360 no-scope audience, I'd like Snipers to handle nothing like those games at all.

[RSphil]

i like the bf3 style of sniping ( bar the stupid lens glare it has ) it will more difficult to get head shots now as there is bullet drop and bullet travel ( bullet time ) which means you are gona have to practice and time your shots. larger rifles with more power should have lower clip capacity just like in real life. dont forget thems big bullets ya firing :P
as there is no prone in this game holding your breath will be good for weapon steadying with a good bit of movement when not holding it. also when moveing you should get a good bit of scope movement aswell. its hard moving and keeping steady while looking down a scope at the best of times.

we shall have to see what it is like in beta. cant wait to get in and see everything.

[Bags]

If it's like BF3 half the players will be recon er cloakers.

[Blackwolf]

If it's like BF3 half the players will be recon er cloakers.

Until they realize their cloak isn't permanent and they can die in a single shot.

Guessing BF3 has gun sway+hitscan like Sniper Elite or CoD?

I think gun sway + bullet drop + bullet travel will make for every bit as effective a sniping system as PS1's CoF + travel time. Again I think it might actually make it harder to snipe in PS2, which makes sense since PS2 snipers seem to be capable of more damage.

[Bags]

It has bullet drop with gun sway but 50% of the people play recon anyway.

[Koenside]

I really enjoyed PS1's sniping mechanic because you either had to predict where someone was going to move or wait till they stood still. If someone was aware of you, you probably wouldnt be able to hit them, and thats the way a sniper should work. In a game as large as planetside, making sniping too easy will be a huge problem.

QFT

[Conq]

Snipers tend to kill the fun for everyone but themselves in modern shooters and are especially useless to their own teams. That behavior shouldn't be encouraged with easy one shot kills.

They should provide recon and support, nothing more.

[Blackwolf]

Snipers tend to kill the fun for everyone but themselves in modern shooters and are especially useless to their own teams. That behavior shouldn't be encouraged with easy one shot kills.

They should provide recon and support, nothing more.

You've no concept of what snipers should and actually DO do. Not a PS1 vet are ya?

Anyway Bags, did it have hitscan or bullet travel? Like I said if it was comperable to Sniper Elite then I'd imagine it would be a lot easier, but SE had hit scan with optional wind and gravity effects and it always had gun sway.

[Alderego]

Battlefield 3 is gunsway + bullet travel.

With either holding your breaths for a few seconds or a bipod to eliminate the sway.
Holding your breath or sprinting, then zooming gave increased sway for a few seconds after though.

[Semisel]

In observation of the general use of the sniper in CoD, I get this impression that nobody in those games goes for headshots deliberately, especially in comp because of hardcore mechanics. In BF, though, snipers either sit back, nice and still, and go for counter-snipes or shots on unaware targets, or they practice and become effective in mid-/close-range, if they're accurate and not suppressed (which strips weapon accuracy PDQ).

Now, Higby has mentioned that there will be damage drop-off for at least VS weapons, and I'd guess that it exists for TR and NC, but with slower drop-off for TR and even slower drop-off for NC. If headshot damage is calculated as a scalar multiple of damage, then headshots may not necessarily kill in one shot at range.

I've always liked the idea of the Scout in CS:S. Granted, it was hitscan, but the premise was that it really wouldn't kill on a single bodyshot, but it was relatively accurate on the move, such that players were more mobile, but also subject to a steep skill curve because of the need for accuracy to hit the head rather than the torso/head.


Just a few bad ideas, but they may as well be here.

[RSphil]

i always snipe on big enough maps. i dont get many kills as i dont fire alot of shots. i sit back and spot/ give intel to my team and if the shot presents it's self i take it. i always aim for the head to get the one shot kill.
i mainly anti snipe though as they can be a pain and hold up troop advancement.

snipers are recon and are there to aid the main assault via protection and intel. it will be interesting to see how the damage ect will be in this game and im looking forward to trying all aspects of this epic mmofps :)

[Conq]

You've no concept of what snipers should and actually DO do.

Seriously going to bring that argument into a video game?

Yes, snipers do efficiently kill people in real life, especially in big open areas... I understand that. However a game would be pretty boring if every single person played one, therefore intelligent designers usually instate balances to ensure even gameplay like penalizing the reload speed, accuracy and/or damage of long ranged weapons.

I seriously doubt they are building Infiltrator to be a one man assassin army, head shot killing machine, lord of war. Sorry.

[Blackwolf]

Seriously going to bring that argument into a video game?

Yes, snipers do efficiently kill people in real life, especially in big open areas... I understand that. However a game would be pretty boring if every single person played one, therefore intelligent designers usually instate balances to ensure even gameplay like penalizing the reload speed, accuracy and/or damage of long ranged weapons.

I seriously doubt they are building Infiltrator to be a one man assassin army, head shot killing machine, lord of war. Sorry.

I wasn't talking about RL snipers. In fact I barely know what kind of role they play in a battlefield, if they play one at all. Seems pretty situational to me.

In planetside they served as fire support and counter sniping. Most assaults on bases would be nearly impossible without one or two around. Trust me I've seen assaults on bases where there were none, and it was laughable.

I can imagine why you feel the way you do though, smaller shooters like BF and CoD don't have the maps that snipers can really take advantage of and yes I can see why you wouldn't want 10 recon troops running around and wasting a sixth of your total forces screwing around. Was never an issue in PS1, most snipers I've seen on any battle (and as a sniper I was very aware of pretty much every other sniper, friend or foe, in the area) numbered maybe 5 or 6 to a side. Compared to the hundreds you have on your side, you won't see them as such an "annoyance".

The ones that do their job right might provide a bit of recon, but they serve more by tying up enemy snipers and pinning down wall defenders and keeping enemies from spawning vehicles if they have a clear shot at the vehicle pad. Keeping enemy heads low and as much penned up in the base as possible meant friendlies could storm the field and start breaking into the base itself faster.

Sorry but I took a bit of offense at the remark.

[Pepsi]

If it's like BF3 half the players will be recon er cloakers.The correct term is "bush wookie". :Dhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DYDFhP1XLE

I have personally witnessed games in arena and small-scale shooters being ruined by the "l337 Sn1p4" mentality. Nothing sucks more than wondering why your team is losing bad, bringing up the scoreboard and realizing 50% of your team are snipers.

Some of the countermeasures against a team all picking the sniper class were server side class limits (though that won't work in PS2) and giving the sniper class a much steeper learning curve to discourage popular use (but this only really made the bad snipers even more worthless to their team).

I can guarantee the "quickscope" infestation of this generation's gamers are going to invade and exist in PS2. The most we can do is keep steepening the learning curve to the sniper specialization that is part of the Infiltrator and heavily punish players that want to sit back and contribute almost nothing to the war effort.

[Toppopia]

I have personally witnessed games in arena and small-scale shooters being ruined by the "l337 Sn1p4" mentality. Nothing sucks more than wondering why your team is losing bad, bringing up the scoreboard and realizing 50% of your team are snipers.

Some of the countermeasures against a team all picking the sniper class were server side class limits (though that won't work in PS2) and giving the sniper class a much steeper learning curve to discourage popular use (but this only really made the bad snipers even more worthless to their team).

I can guarantee the "quickscope" infestation of this generation's gamers are going to invade and exist in PS2. The most we can do is keep steepening the learning curve to the sniper specialization that is part of the Infiltrator and heavily punish players that want to sit back and contribute almost nothing to the war effort.

I sure hope there is no quick scoping. That almost put me off MW3. So i hope the devs have made it either you can't shoot while zooming in, or you are extremely inaccurate while you zoom in, that will stop quick scoping.

[Blackwolf]

What's quick scoping?

[Pepsi]

What's quick scoping?Scoping in and pulling the trigger in a short span of time. In games like CoD with heavy auto aim, bullet magnetism, and a piss-poor hitbox it's a fairly large design flaw that allows snipers to be rather effective CQB players.