Planetside 2 Needs Prone [Archive] - Page 3

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 03:34 AM

The battle rages on. Prone will win. You will see.

If by "see" you mean sadly going back to tf2 to wait for a worthy replacement cause every shooter that comes out is a crappy modern shooter or the exact same gameplay. then ya i will "see"

I played planetside at launch and for many years till tf2 came out cause of bfr's. tf2 is awesome but i've grown tired of it, playing that since launch will do that to ya.

I've eagerly been waiting for a shooter to take its place for me. Most shooters made today are garbage imo. I saw ps2 and shat bricks. Been excited since.

Although being in my early 20's I am an old fashioned kind of fps player, the kind that doesn't have much to turn to these days.

Not adding prone effects people who want it way less than adding prone to the people who don't want it.

hypehype

2012-06-10, 03:40 AM

I can put up Legions of video thats proove thats prone isnt a problem at all the reason you put up are simply no where near the reality

dude ive play 2000 + in MAG a large scales game with 256 players and if its not a problem their and find me a single video where in MAG a large scales the only modern large scales game FIND ONE video where prone is use and abuse ?

can you ? Not a montage of few shot a real begin to end video i can put up Legions of video if you want to

MAG: Domination - Flores Basin Transfer Gameplay Montage - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D24R-l86RYE&feature=related)

i will not spam their is a random video but their is a lots of bad player video so i know Moejoe is a good player so thats why at take his video at first

Is this game seams to be slow down by the prone ? is this game to be camping festival ?

Actually from my experience of playing MAG i Remember Snipers prone camping their own spawn point, when they where supposed to be attacking. This lead to many Team kills and Rage quitting from players.

Going prone practically disables movement, and promotes camping.
At least with crouch the player will advance foward, but a player that is prone is unlikely to ever move.

And this was incredibly frustrating, because it basically meant i was handicapped, so many times we could of capped a base if that player got of his belly and helped us.

Dice knew sniper camping was a major problem, thats why in BF3 they added scope glint.

How to deal with camping snipers in MAG - YouTube

Stew

2012-06-10, 03:43 AM

I can respect your opinion, but there's more of an argument to it being more than camping.

Also PS1 Vets are first access to beta, where they will ultimately make their decision, do you really think PS1 Vets are going to want it? Doubtful

I know 10 people who i've stayed in contact with who hate the idea of prone being put in, and we've all played multiple fps's over the years. We know how prone works, we don't need a beta to test it.

Ps1 vets will have the acess like any others early access

and also they will not make the game like Ps1 vets want it the ps1 vets who are going to get in the beta are fews and SOE cant make the game only for these fews people iam a ps1 vets but i dont have a ps1 active accont since 2007 so yeah !

Planetside is going to be for everyones and Not all planetside 1 vets are blind and mindclose like ive said earlyer the ps1 vets who want ps2 to be ps1 will be disapointed !

and the prone is not going to be in the first beta build thats for sure

Many PC gamers early acess will get in at the same time as planeside 1 players beta invite !

also their is NO arguments ive seen here about prone thats are actually good or who make any sens This poll is 100 % biase and cheated iam sure of this even the most popular poll do not have this count in few time like this

the arguments agains prone are :

I do not like prone = personal opinion base on nothing
Prone is encouraging camping = WRONG
I do not like prone lol
and Cloakers in prone position = was a concern for me as well but ive found the solution While going prone Cloak goes off and its lock while prone so infiltrator cant cloak while prone

this is whats we call trying to find solution make the discussion worth something their is a solution to everything

thats pretty much it

the arguments for

Prone is bette to be able to get cover in time to avoid some unfair firefigth
good for situational landscape combat where their is only few mini hills and few 2 feet and 1 feet tall rocks and 80 % of the planetside maps is made of these so the landscape will be also good for infantry not just for vehicules play ! Ad to your freedoms of moovements ! this will also allow much more variety to the figth since prone will make soldiers suitable for landscapes battle whiout having to be in a vehicules !

so i found the FOR arguments more revelant to me than just saying wrong thing like prone = camping thats wrong i rarely see any campers in prone in MAG or BF3 those who camp prone are mostly noobs who end the game swirh 1 kills 20 dead and 50 points so yeah anll the agains are irrevelant to me at this point

the only thing thats can make me think prone sucks will be if once implemented the hitdetection of the prone guys is broken is the prone can be exploits or abuse drop shot etc.. i will say proudly NO to thats

but if its well done i will want it very bad to be a better soldier especislly in landscape battle where their is not so much cover like in based figth !

Fortress

2012-06-10, 03:44 AM

What is it about these forums that brings out every FPS-retarded child and their virtual wishlist?

Look, I'm sorry that PS2 won't have BFR's or dragons or player homes or auction houses or underwater shark hunts or invading amazons or prone or ghillie suits but Jesus Christ they don't even have rocks working correctly yet. Let them work on that before you demand angel wings or whatever.

Envenom

2012-06-10, 03:47 AM

If by "see" you mean sadly going back to tf2 to wait for a worthy replacement cause every shooter that comes out is a crappy modern shooter or the exact same gameplay. then ya i will "see"

LOL. So melodramatic. And I suppose prone is the paramount deciding factor of your entire MMOFPS experience with Planetside 2?

Wow, you've sure put all your eggs in one basket. :lol:

Save the drama. This isn't that big of a deal. So some people lie down on the ground. If this is a game ruiner for you, you should probably re-think your FPS career. It's not that big of a deal.

Stew

2012-06-10, 03:48 AM

Actually from my experience of playing MAG i Remember Snipers prone camping their own Base when they where supposed to be attacking. This lead to many Team kills and Rage quitting from players.

Going prone practically disables movement, and promotes camping.

Dice knew sniper camping was a major problem, thats why in BF3 they added scope glint.

How to deal with camping snipers in MAG - YouTube[/url]

Whiout prone the same thing will happen have you ever play battlefield bad company ? Snipers team remember ? lol same thing will hapen CAMPERS ARE CAMPERS no matter prone crouch stand up they will camp because they are bad in situational awarness !

PROOF HERE NO PRONE GAME FULL OF CAMPERS
Sniper Team - Battlefield Bad Company 2 Music Video - YouTube

iam 100 % rigth on thats this arguments is irevalent

Fortress

2012-06-10, 03:51 AM

Tarconus

2012-06-10, 03:53 AM

You misread my post, I said "Also PS1 Vets are first access to beta", First, not only.

To clarify even more, all the vets will get access first, meaning the vets get their imput above people who haven't played ps1.

No pc gamer keys are in the same pool that they pull from, and I can almost bet all these keys given away at e3 are as well.

Phellix

2012-06-10, 03:54 AM

Ps1 vets will have the acess like any others early access

and also they will not make the game like Ps1 vets want it the ps1 vets who are going to get in the beta are fews and SOE cant make the game only for these fews people iam a ps1 vets but i dont have a ps1 active accont since 2007 so yeah !

Planetside is going to be for everyones and Not all planetside 1 vets are blind and mindclose like ive said earlyer the ps1 vets who want ps2 to be ps1 will be disapointed !

and the prone is not going to be in the first beta build thats for sure

Many PC gamers early acess will get in at the same time as planeside 1 players beta invite !

also their is NO arguments ive seen here about prone thats are actually good or who make any sens This poll is 100 % biase and cheated iam sure of this even the most popular poll do not have this count in few time like this

the arguments agains prone are :

I do not like prone = personal opinion base on nothing
Prone is encouraging camping = WRONG
I do not like prone lol
and Cloakers in prone position = was a concern for me as well but ive found the solution While going prone Cloak goes off and its lock while prone so infiltrator cant cloak while prone

this is whats we call trying to find solution make the discussion worth something their is a solution to everything

thats pretty much it

the arguments for

Prone is bette to be able to get cover in time to avoid some unfair firefigth
good for situational landscape combat where their is only few mini hills and few 2 feet and 1 feet tall rocks and 80 % of the planetside maps is made of these so the landscape will be also good for infantry not just for vehicules play ! Ad to your freedoms of moovements ! this will also allow much more variety to the figth since prone will make soldiers suitable for landscapes battle whiout having to be in a vehicules !

so i found the FOR arguments more revelant to me than just saying wrong thing like prone = camping thats wrong i rarely see any campers in prone in MAG or BF3 those who camp prone are mostly noobs who end the game swirh 1 kills 20 dead and 50 points so yeah anll the agains are irrevelant to me at this point

the only thing thats can make me think prone sucks will be if once implemented the hitdetection of the prone guys is broken is the prone can be exploits or abuse drop shot etc.. i will say proudly NO to thats

but if its well done i will want it very bad to be a better soldier especislly in landscape battle where their is not so much cover like in based figth !
The problem here is you're comparing Planetside to BF3 or MAG, obviously PS2 won't be like PS1 it's very obvious and cool that's great, don't really care, but adding prone changes everything, EVERYTHING, about infantry combat. Which I(and many others obviously) do care about. Also i'm pretty sure no one is going out of there way to rig a poll so you can stop trying to argue that it's inaccurate.

Save the drama. This isn't that big of a deal. So some people lie down on the ground. If this is a game ruiner for you, you should probably re-think your FPS career. It's not that big of a deal.

Wrong, as i said above, it changes everything about infantry combat, which is kind of a big deal in a FIRST PERSON shooter.

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 03:55 AM

I do not like prone = personal opinion base on nothing

!

I'm pretty sure your ignoring me like a bitch after insulting me cause you haven't responded to any of my points. But regardless do not assume we base these things off of nothing, makes you and me an ass. and dont say my opinion of a simple yes or no doesn't matter. you listen to the opinions you want and disregard the rest all while trying to say your impartial and just keeping things open.

You also attack people saying they are fake. If you are trying to be fair and impartial for the sake of waiting for beta, then you are doing this all wrong by insulting people and disregarding their valid opinions cause they don't share yours.

Simply not liking a feature is a valid opinion.

hypehype

2012-06-10, 03:56 AM

Whiout prone the same thing will happen have you ever play battlefield bad company ? Snipers team remember ? lol same thing will hapen CAMPERS ARE CAMPERS no matter prone crouch stand up they will camp because they are bad in situational awarness !

PROOF HERE NO PRONE GAME FULL OF CAMPERS
Sniper Team - Battlefield Bad Company 2 Music Video - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DYDFhP1XLE)

iam 100 % rigth on thats this arguments is irevalent

But the difference is a Crouch camper is eaiser to spot and kill than a prone camper.
Yes i have played BC2, Again as i said before, Dice knew camping snipers was a problem, so they added the scope glint crutch before giving snipers prone.

If bush wookies could prone in BC2 the game would be impossible to play

Stew

2012-06-10, 03:56 AM

^ PSU spelling bee champ, 2012.

THIS game as no prone and this video is revelant of whats ive experienced so many time the wokkies hide in the bush in crouch position Prone or no prone will never prevent CAMPERS TO CAMPS CAMPERS ARE CAMPERS thats all
and they will camp in ps2 no matter whats u said prone will not ad anything to campers they will use infiltrator with clock and sit on a corner invisible etc..

Their is a BFbc2 game WITH NO PRONE whats you think about thats whats you have to say ? please logical statement no a attack on my poor english :(
Sniper Team - Battlefield Bad Company 2 Music Video - YouTube

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 03:57 AM

It's not that big of a deal.

Prone changes the way everything in the game will flow, do not say its not a big deal, if it wasnt a big deal this thread wouldn't be so long.

Phellix

2012-06-10, 03:58 AM

No pc gamer keys are in the same pool that they pull from, and I can almost bet all these keys given away at e3 are as well.

Do you know how beta keys go out? Batches. Not all at once.

So no, They won't be in when vets go in, assuming they stick to their word.

Fortress

2012-06-10, 03:59 AM

THIS game as no prone and this video is revelant of whats ive experienced so many time the wokkies hide in the bush in crouch position Prone or no prone will never prevent CAMPERS TO CAMPS CAMPERS ARE CAMPERS thats all
and they will camp in ps2 no matter whats u said prone will not ad anything to campers they will use infiltrator with clock and sit on a corner invisible etc..

Their is a BFbc2 game WITH NO PRONE whats you think about thats whats you have to say ? please logical statement no a attack on my poor english :(

I've never watched the special Olympics, but I feel like laughing at you is close enough.

Tarconus

2012-06-10, 04:02 AM

Do you know how beta keys go out? Batches. Not all at once.

Do you know that all those batches are put into a RNG and pulled out depending on what pool they are in? And that PC gamer and PS1 vets are swimming in the same pool? Ergo, unless the probability gods shine and the odds go nuts it will not be all vets in there before pc gamer people. In fact I would wager more pc gamer people will as there are more keys given out over that.

And also the fact that not all vets even care about this game anymore nor even have active emails on their station accounts to even accept an invite.

Stew

2012-06-10, 04:04 AM

But the difference is a Crouch camper is eaiser to spot and kill than a prone camper.
Yes i have played BC2, Again as i said before, Dice knew camping snipers was a problem, so they added the scope glint crutch before giving snipers prone.

If bush wookies could prone in BC2 the game would be impossible to play

So why am i able to see people across the map while prone in BF3 ? whats kinda or screen monitor do you have ? i have a 27 inch LED viewsonic 1ms

and i can spot an BF3 eng prone across the map why ? why am i able to see people prone on a rooftop whiout seen them because of the 3d spotting i talk about seign them for real ! why ?

this is so funny at first you said prone encourage camping and now since your arguments as been proove to be wrong you come up with prone people are more hard to see which is wrong agains and i can proove it just wait a second i will log in BF make a video and come back here to proove my point !

Phellix

2012-06-10, 04:08 AM

Do you know that all those batches are put into a RNG and pulled out depending on what pool they are in? And that PC gamer and PS1 vets are swimming in the same pool? Ergo, unless the probability gods shine and the odds go nuts it will not be all vets in there before pc gamer people. In fact I would wager more pc gamer people will as there are more keys given out over that.

And also the fact that not all vets even care about this game anymore nor even have active emails on their station accounts to even accept an invite.

I know how betas work and how keys go out, but i did misread what was said regarding ps1 vets when they first released the info about beta keys awhile back, apologies. With that said it's a shame because too many players have never played an FPS that doesn't offer prone so they think it's necessary, which sucks for the players who know it's not & ruins FPS games.

Tarconus

2012-06-10, 04:15 AM

I know how betas work and how keys go out, but i did misread what was said regarding ps1 vets when they first released the info about beta keys awhile back, apologies. With that said it's a shame because too many players have never played an FPS that doesn't offer prone so they think it's necessary, which sucks for the players who know it's not & ruins FPS games.

:) Just to be clear I wasn't in PS1 but I don't like prone either I played the orginal tribes sniping and didn't even have crouch so I know it's not needed. I only said the stuff about beta cause I didn't want people to get the wrong idea about what you said.

The problem I have with prone now is, with no kill cam and bullets that will be coming from everywhere, there is no way to get that person back or take that threat out. With a hidey hole that they could have glitched their way into and no kill cam to see where they are and promote shooting and moving prone is to OP either on attack or defense.

Stew

2012-06-10, 04:27 AM

yeah campers will remains campers no matter prone or not unreal as no prone no corouch but theyr swas still campers out there lol campers are mostly bad players and arent a treat

hypehype

2012-06-10, 04:35 AM

So why am i able to see people across the map while prone in BF3 ? whats kinda or screen monitor do you have ? i have a 27 inch LED viewsonic 1ms

and i can spot an BF3 eng prone across the map why ? why am i able to see people prone on a rooftop whiout seen them because of the 3d spotting i talk about seign them for real ! why ?

this is so funny at first you said prone encourage camping and now since your arguments as been proove to be wrong you come up with prone people are more hard to see which is wrong agains and i can proove it just wait a second i will log in BF make a video and come back here to proove my point !

No, i still support my idea that prone encourages camping, because prone disables movement.

Yes people still camped regardless in BC2, but becasue they could not prone, they where eaiser to see and shoot. its far eaiser to see a crouching sniper adjusting their position then a prone sniper.

There where other factors that made snipers camp alot in BC2, mostely to do with them having a mortar strike gadget, so there was no real reason for them to ever move.

Stew

2012-06-10, 04:39 AM

LOOK up there this is proove and facts no some theorie thats make no sens Prone no prone campers will camp their is also campers in unreal tournament and their is not even a crouch lollll

:) Just to be clear I wasn't in PS1 but I don't like prone either I played the orginal tribes sniping and didn't even have crouch so I know it's not needed. I only said the stuff about beta cause I didn't want people to get the wrong idea about what you said.

The problem I have with prone now is, with no kill cam and bullets that will be coming from everywhere, there is no way to get that person back or take that threat out. With a hidey hole that they could have glitched their way into and no kill cam to see where they are and promote shooting and moving prone is to OP either on attack or defense.

prone isnt needed to shoot people while prone

prone is mostly use by Pro skills run and gunners who need a 2 sec to reload a guns they go prone bhind little rock or crate reload and go back in to the action like i do myself and its also dangerous to be prone its protect you agains snipers mostly

In fact prone is the most efficients contersnipers for infantry AR and SMG ans LMG type look at this video and youll see by urself

http://youtu.be/a3L04OgHdL0?t=10m58s

at 10 min 50 you can see me using a little cover and using prone to avoid the tons of snipers camping behind iam trying to moove foward but their is to much of them whiout prone ive been kill a way to many times

so prone is more usefull for agresssinve and skills players than for campers so iam really concern about the real gaming experience of many !

Snipers are jerks - YouTube

the prone is usefull for infantry and agressive even more so i think personally prone will ad even more agressive gameplay and not the oposite !

think i dont try to moove fowar ? look at me using prone to try to moove foward in a ennemy nest full of 32 ennemy players ;) http://youtu.be/a3L04OgHdL0?t=13m41s «««««««««««««« HERE

http://youtu.be/a3L04OgHdL0?t=17m «««««« Prone hard to spot ? did i have any problem to spot this one ??

goneglockin

2012-06-10, 04:49 AM

Prone.

Think of what this essentially reduces decades of advancements in video game tech too...

You know those flash add where you have to click the thing to win the stuff? Basically the skillset for the stationary "fps" player having a picnic and occasionally clicking on people who walk in front of his scope is the same.

If it were up to me, I would make an FPS game called FPS. It would have no story, no silly campaign, just super-tight multiplayer. Since it's a game that knows it's a game, throw some terminals around the map that allow you to change the rules/mechanics of the round- or even areas of the map itself- if you can earn them. It would be entirely projectile based and some lead would be necessary, but not psychic or guessing tribes style leading. It would have no sniper rifles.

I could go on.

P.S.

I wish people would stop holding up BF3 as some kind of a standard. It's absolute horse shit. It's Bad Company 2, part 2; and no one seemed to think the way that game played was all that and a bag of chips. But slap the Battlefield name on it and suddenly it's the gold standard of gaming. Please. Did not buy. Do not want.

Stew

2012-06-10, 04:53 AM

Prone.

Think of what this essentially reduces decades of advancements in video game tech too...

You know those flash add where you have to click the thing to win the stuff? Basically the skillset for the stationary "fps" player having a picnic and

. [/U]

I could go on.

Have you take a look at the proof up there ? iam i a stationary FPS player ? whats silly is whats u just said Why did you avoid every single proof and always repeat the same non sens ? LOOK rith on top of yor post read ans watch those part of video

everything thats you guys as said is prooved to be wrong is a single death match video !

Greenthy

2012-06-10, 04:56 AM

I recall COD:MW when it just became standard to, whenever running into enemies, dive into prone to avoid getting hit, than getting back up.

Plus the fact that PS maps are so huge, one could basicly prone on a cliff and never be found sniping away.

No prone please! :)

ThermalReaper

2012-06-10, 04:57 AM

My question is, why would Planetside 2 need prone in the first place? It's like asking for swimming in a game like...Splinter cell conviction. There is barely any water in the game and it's not needed. Although you are welcome to convince me otherwise. :)

Malorn

2012-06-10, 04:58 AM

This thread has really degraded into Stew arguing with most of the community by linking videos which he thinks prove that prone is harmless, but they fail to convince anyone else.

Edit: Also, prone is rendered meaningless by either adding more cover, or making it tall enough to crouch behind. The only reason you see BF3 people having to run & prone, run & prone is because they removed most of the cover compared to BFBC2. The mere presence of prone changed the map design to force its use. In games where it doesn't exist they balance the map around it not existing.

Were PS2 to adopt prone, they would have to change all of the combat areas on all continents to account for this new gameplay element. Seems kind of meaningless to me given that it doesn't add anything noteworthy to the game.

goneglockin

2012-06-10, 05:00 AM

Have you take a look at the proof up there ? match

What you choose to do is not proof of anything.

When I log into a BFBC2/BF3 server there are a few people trying to get the objectives and they're being cut down by the other players, who are laying down prone, working on their tan.

Wanna know what proof is? Look up the of global stats for win ratio of attackers/defenders on any given day. The game is pathetic. Attackers just sit there because they don't want to hurt their stats. They wait for their turn to play defense, their turn to win. I don't give a rats ass what you do with it, but a combination of things has turned BF3 into a complete waste of people's time; prone+foilage being one of them.

Stew

2012-06-10, 05:06 AM

This thread has really degraded into Stew arguing with most of the community by linking videos which he thinks prove that prone is harmless, but they fail to convince anyone else.

lol whats the hell is this ?

I explain every single point of whats is Prone and whats it does i put up fact u denied it and keep a close mind into it

If prone is bad is because the game did not make it good Bf2 and Bf2 mc as a horrificly bad prone and unfair prone accuracy boost and hit detection thats make prone players to have a to big edje over the others

BF3 prone mechanics are well done so its serve a way more the run and gunners than the campers and serve a way more the agressive gameplay than the passive camping ones

those are facts you denied it fine

but dont start to turn all this into personal atack because i try to proove thats all concern about not aving prone can be fix like having cloak desactivated for infiltrator while prone

i try to make something constructive and something GOOD out of this

You try to turn it in personal atack denying all i have to say and proove just to stick whith ur point of view so yeah just quit the discussion if its to be like this

whats you want to put up exept that you dont like prone ?

we got it you dont like prone so do you really need to turn this into a vendetta ?

Luieburger

2012-06-10, 05:08 AM

I say no. For any historical or modern warfare type shooters I require it, but this game is much more team based like TF2. Prone in TF2 would be a waste, or even a problem. I think prone would be an equal problem in PS2.

goneglockin

2012-06-10, 05:10 AM

Malorn

2012-06-10, 05:11 AM

Stew you have an interesting definition of "fact."

Stew

2012-06-10, 05:13 AM

Edit: Also, prone is rendered meaningless by either adding more cover, or making it tall enough to crouch behind. The only reason you see BF3 people having to run & prone, run & prone is because they removed most of the cover compared to BFBC2.

.

Their is a point ive already point out but agains BFbc2 as less cover than BF3 in BFBC2 almost all building and tree was compleatly ¸destroy before the end of the match in BF3 they have ad some more cover to help the rush modes and many building catn be broken uinto piece unlike BF3

ANyway their is exactly my concern

the most part of the maps In planetside 2 are pretty empty few rock here and they few cliff few castucs so almost all the hill the edje and the side of those hill will be the only cover so the prone will be more than welcome to figth in those area think about it as a infantry !

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 05:15 AM

Stew

2012-06-10, 05:16 AM

Stew,

I'm gonna tell you this in plain simple english.

Games like BF3 sell millions of copies to people at all levels of game experience. The people who design these games purposefully make them so everyone can play them, everyone can get kills, everyone has a chance to win, and everyone has fun and keeps buying their shitty games.

They are not a good example of anything except how to make a bland game that pleases everyone until they get bored with it 6 months to a year later, and leave for the next turd coming out.

Ok so you say thats planetside must have a gameplay thats no ones would like to play in order to see this game die ? since its a free to play and they dont even get a single $ for each copy downloaded ?

And planetside will only be better with prone Not worst depending on HOW the mechnics work if the prone is baddly made ILL BE THE FIRST TO SAY REMOOVE THIS CRAP !

But from my experience prone is a good feature with endless possibility to use the terrain for a smart run and gunner

Stew

2012-06-10, 05:22 AM

If you want prone, go play all those shitty modern shooters you keep posting about and love so much. Do not try to turn planetside 2 into one of them.

Adding prone to planetside 2 is like throwing mayonnaise on a pizza. If you like the taste of that garbage that's cool. Go to the pizza places you like that serve that garbage. But don't come to the pizza places ive gone to for years and start demanding i have to eat the pizza you like.

dude planetside 2 is based on modern shooters lol Matt higby say it the ceo of SOE said it the planetside producer say it Tramel isaac said it

why all those people are all agains me and try to atack me personally Atack the ideas atack the true stuff

why atacking me ?

put up some facts some proof some video to proove your point stop acting like a pack of wolf over me am i doing anything wrong just because i defend the thing i can proove

prone isnt camping BF3 is not perfect but its a good game kinda hate the balistic ive prefere the bfbc2 balistic but the moovement etc.. are better in bf3 anyway

please try to make something constructive and try to avoid the personal stuff as much as possible thanks and peace

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 05:26 AM

you attacked me way long ago. waaaaaaay long ago, if you didnt talk shit i would have left by now.

so you can insult anyone one you want and disregard all opinions you dont agree with is what you are saying.

people who even agreed with your opinion on prone have looked at your arguments and took a big step back form you at how childishly you disregard other opinions.

Malorn

2012-06-10, 05:27 AM

Stew your posts look like the ravings of a paranoid schizophrenic. Here's some real facts for you.

Fact: 3 in 10 PSU voters want prone in PS2.

Fact: nearly 2/3 of PSU voters do not want prone in PS2.

It's quite clear that most planetsiders don't want prone, and your blathering and video linking isn't going to change that. The bit was flipped (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bozo_bit) a long time ago.

ThermalReaper

2012-06-10, 05:27 AM

Stew, what is the point of having prone in the game? Other than having a dolphin dive I don't see the point. Bad company 2 did without prone.

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 05:28 AM

I was more than civil in my first and second post in this thread, you ended that.

Anderz

2012-06-10, 05:31 AM

I'm reluctant to weigh into this rather unruly debate, but I'd like to at least test out prone within the game, if it's true that's what they're doing.

From my experience playing FPSs, prone does slow down the game to some degree, but not dramatically. (Personally, I prefer slower-paced FPSs over twitch games like CoD, so I see that as a plus.)

I also agree with Stew in the sense that it allows infantry players to find cover in open environments, especially when confronted by a tank. It's frustrating in games where, despite crouching behind a rock, you're killed because your head is still exposed. It makes playing as an infantry in these huge environments less enticing, leading to what I am concerned will be a vehicle-dominated game.

Furthermore, as a sniper, prone has its advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that it reduces your visible profile and makes your shots steadier, but the disadvantage is that your movement and reaction time is restricted, making you an easy target once spotted. As long as you cannot be cloaked when prone, I don't see camping as an issue. People should also keep in mind that camping in situations like is part of warfare tactics and can be off assistance to your team.

So as long as dolphin diving is not possible, and moving whilst in prone is restrictive (similar to BF3), I think prone would be a welcome addition to the game.

Xyntech

2012-06-10, 05:31 AM

I kind of want prone, just so that I can laugh at how much easier it is to shoot a horizontal body from above when I'm jumping around as a Light Assault :D

But I really don't give a shit as long as the game mechanics don't make it mandatory or overpowered. Same as with iron sights. Just another way to play the game, as long as the developers don't make it the only way to play the game.

But I'd be just as happy if they kept it out. I don't particularly want to see it and I think it would be a waste of development and balancing time. Just not important enough to the massive scale battles of a Planetside experience IMO.

Sirisian

2012-06-10, 05:32 AM

Fact: nearly 2/3 of PSU voters do not want prone in PS2.
I think the problem with using this argument is that most people voting against it are thinking of an implementation in other games. Ones that allow dolphin diving for instance, and vote out of fear. That is they aren't thinking of it in terms of how it would be implemented if it was placed into the game. I've noticed only a few people have been able to do that in this with reasoned arguments.

That said, it's still an interesting debate for both sides. Seen some good points brought up in the past few pages.

Stew

2012-06-10, 05:32 AM

Stew, what is the point of having prone in the game? Other than having a dolphin dive I don't see the point. Bad company 2 did without prone.

ive already awnser multiple time i will not even spam more but i cant say this

Why not having prone if we can have prone ?

Stew

2012-06-10, 05:34 AM

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 05:34 AM

I do not want to walk into a control point and see my whole squad lying on the ground waiting for things to walk into the room like girls. Making garbage balanced doesn't make it not garbage.

Anderz

2012-06-10, 05:37 AM

Stew, what is the point of having prone in the game? Other than having a dolphin dive I don't see the point. Bad company 2 did without prone.

And I hated BC2 for it!
That being said, a lot of my frustration had to do with the destructible cover, which meant that if you were in the line of fire by a tank, you were toast. Either because it would blow away whatever you were crouching behind, or because your head would be popping out from behind cover.

The fact that cover is not destructible in PS2 will make this less frustrating, but I'd still like to see prone in the game.

Gandhi

2012-06-10, 05:37 AM

Anderz

2012-06-10, 05:40 AM

I do not want to walk into a control point and see my whole squad lying on the ground waiting for things to walk into the room like girls. Making garbage balanced doesn't make it not garbage.

But if you throw a grenade into the room, they won't have time to react and get away. Boom.

They might not go prone so much after that.

Gandhi

2012-06-10, 05:40 AM

I also agree with Stew in the sense that it allows infantry players to find cover in open environments, especially when confronted by a tank. It's frustrating in games where, despite crouching behind a rock, you're killed because your head is still exposed. It makes playing as an infantry in these huge environments less enticing, leading to what I am concerned will be a vehicle-dominated game.

You shouldn't be able to find cover in an open field, that's the whole point of having open fields. That's the whole point of having vehicles that anyone can pull at any time. Some areas of the game will be dominated by vehicles, it's a design choice that was made some time ago. Others will be dominated by infantry, others by air.

MacXXcaM

2012-06-10, 05:41 AM

Don't know if anyone has suggested this before:

How about making prone a specific cert for the sniper class?

Stew

2012-06-10, 05:41 AM

I think the problem with using this argument is that most people voting against it are thinking of an implementation in other games. Ones that allow dolphin diving for instance, and vote out of fear. That is they aren't thinking of it in terms of how it would be implemented if it was placed into the game. I've noticed only a few people have been able to do that in this with reasoned arguments.

That said, it's still an interesting debate for both sides. Seen some good points brought up in the past few pages.

I also have concern about how the implementation of prone will be , like ive said if its no well done prone will be the worst thing ever like BF2 and BF2mc the prone drop shot was anoying as hell and ive wish it could be remoove

But ive try to putting up some why i saw thats prone could be good for this or thats but iam not good enough in english to be subtile and to explain thats much whats i think i try tho

i could be agains prone and i could be for prone depending on how it will look and feel in game ive been repeating thats but been atacked all the time like i was the pure PRO prone lol

ive said and show how prone could be use for infantry how usefull it could be in planetside 2 in (( non base outpost )) sector to find cover with hillside etc...

so yeah i also would like to see the debate comming back on topic and not see the subject bifurcate to my suposed attitude or anything like thast iam not good as most of you in english so i cant be thats much subtile

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 05:43 AM

But if you throw a grenade into the room, they won't have time to react and get away. Boom.

They might not go prone so much after that.

I said my squad, i dont care about fighting campers, that's easy like you said.
I care about the flow of combat and not seeing my whole platoon cowering like little girls waiting for the next thing to walk in front of their cross hairs so they can click once and go back to doing nothing.

goneglockin

2012-06-10, 05:45 AM

Malorn

2012-06-10, 05:47 AM

I think the problem with using this argument is that most people voting against it are thinking of an implementation in other games.

I'd love to see your evidence for that claim.

GhettoPrince

2012-06-10, 05:51 AM

Our opinion doesn't mean much right now, we haven't played the game. This isn't like Halo or COD where a match is 6v6 or 8v8 and one guy can carry a team or capture a flag to win the game.

A base defense goes on for hours, im not exaggerating, until one side or another loses their respawn or gets cut off from the area. What you saw in the E3 videos wasn't even a battle, that was maybe three dozen people all spawning on top of each other. That's barely a small tower fight.

I'm ok with prone, but only for medics and infiltrators, everyone else is wearing too much armor and carrying too much gear. If light assault get it, then I bet the jet pack is a large weak point on their hitbox.

Stew

2012-06-10, 05:53 AM

And I hated BC2 for it!
That being said, a lot of my frustration had to do with the destructible cover, which meant that if you were in the line of fire by a tank, you were toast. Either because it would blow away whatever you were crouching behind, or because your head would be popping out from behind cover.

The fact that cover is not destructible in PS2 will make this less frustrating, but I'd still like to see prone in the game.

Yeah ive been into the same thing when you just can go prone and the cover is not enough tall or even the rock your getting shot and you feel compleatly enable to react properly you feel trap and thats really bad !

Thats one of my main concern about the NON base/outpost combat not having prone in those can be ok sometimes but for 80 % of the maps in indar is mostly landscape desert with a very few rocks and hills so only the terrain mostly can be use as a cover for the infantry but whiout the prone it will be a nigthmare for infantry combat only vehicules will be use if their is no prone !

Anderz

2012-06-10, 05:54 AM

I don't know about you, but I don't play games in the hopes that I will get to spend some quality time virtually lying down. Simulating the thrilling experience of not being able to move for fear of being insta-killed. Not my idea of a good time. The ttks will be higher in this game and you will get more opportunity to move, and have to spend less time eating dirt.

Just because it's in the game, doesn't mean you have to use it. If not yours, it might suit someone else's play style.

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 05:57 AM

I do not care how it is implemented. It could take an hour to go from standing to prone. It still ruins all flow of action.

If you are alive you fight, when you die with honor you earn the right to lie down.

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 05:58 AM

Just because it's in the game, doesn't mean you have to use it. If not yours, it might suit someone else's play style.

This is not a feature you simply dont use if you dont like it. It effects the flow of all infantry combat whether you use it or not.

Rexdezi

2012-06-10, 06:08 AM

I'd like prone to be in, didn't realise it wasn't. Maybe only for infiltrators, maybe engineers and medics too I'm not sure. I've read all the previous comments and I'm not convinced by any of the arguments against it.

Malorn

2012-06-10, 06:09 AM

This is not a feature you simply dont use if you dont like it. It effects the flow of all infantry combat whether you use it or not.

^

Cam

2012-06-10, 06:15 AM

i don't care if prone is in or out . lets say PS2 put prone in and there were 50 snipers on a hill i would go grab a lighting and kill them all since i know they wont have any AV weapons since there is now a class system.

GhettoPrince

2012-06-10, 06:15 AM

Thats one of my main concern about the NON base/outpost combat not having prone in those can be ok sometimes but for 80 % of the maps in indar is mostly landscape desert with a very few rocks and hills so only the terrain mostly can be use as a cover for the infantry but whiout the prone it will be a nigthmare for infantry combat only vehicules will be use if their is no prone !

If you are infantry and fighting on the open ground than you are already dead. A whole generation died in World War I because of that. That's a tank fight. That's the whole reason the tank was invented.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Chateau_Wood_Ypres_1917.jpg

That said, it would be nice to let engineers place a foxhole or a small bunker, instead of just that shield.

Stew

2012-06-10, 06:48 AM

Greenthy

2012-06-10, 06:52 AM

If you are infantry and fighting on the open ground than you are already dead. A whole generation died in World War I because of that. That's a tank fight. That's the whole reason the tank was invented.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Chateau_Wood_Ypres_1917.jpg

That said, it would be nice to let engineers place a foxhole or a small bunker, instead of just that shield.

Pretty sure the tank was invented to cross the nomansland between trenches.
It was ment to ride over the different set of barbwires and get ppl across to the enemy trenches.

It was the 'gattling' gun that was the killer in an open field.

Stew

2012-06-10, 07:01 AM

Pretty sure the tank was invented to cross the nomansland between trenches.
It was ment to ride over the different set of barbwires and get ppl across to the enemy trenches.

It was the 'gattling' gun that was the killer in an open field.

the problem is not vehicules vs no vehicules in tanks you have mostlikely more chance to survive but the thing is prone will allow players to not feel hopeless or unable to deal whith the noman land wich is almost 80 % of the planetside 2 maps especially in indar !

saying that eveyones will have to get a vehicules in order to figth in 80 % of the maps will make a tons of people quit

planetside 2 is suposed to be for everyones every playstyle forcing the vehicules play isnt a good way to go

i think both vehicules and infantry should have the tool to deal with any sort of terrain situation climat and time of the days so the game will be fun and enjoyable for everyones !

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 07:03 AM

prone is a good feature for agressive player to deal with terrain

And that is your opinion, see how that works, nothing said by anyone so far has been a fact. You say it's good for aggressive play, i say its for girly men who wont earn their way into Valhalla. Neither of us are wrong. It simply boils down to do you like it or not.

And majority here do not.

And for someone CLAIMING to being impartial and all nice and objective just wanting a discussion until beta, i'm still waiting for an apology for you saying i wasnt a real person 3 times. someone discussing something with civility would apologize for such disrespect, then again civility on the internet...fat chance.

basti

2012-06-10, 07:07 AM

Stew

2012-06-10, 07:15 AM

And that is your opinion, see how that works, nothing said by anyone so far has been a fact. You say it's good for aggressive play, i say its for girly men who wont earn their way into Valhalla. Neither of us are wrong. It simply boils down to do you like it or not.

And majority here do not.

And for someone CLAIMING to being impartial and all nice and objective just wanting a discussion until beta, i'm still waiting for an apology for you saying i wasnt a real person 3 times. someone discussing something with civility would apologize for such disrespect, then again civility on the internet...fat chance.

its not a opinion their is a difference between opinion and fact !

their is a way more use of the prone position to actually moove foward take multiple cover use the terrain with the prone feature using edje and hillside etc.. as a agressive player

than simply just hit prone and camp all nigth long lol

theyre is no use of the prone feature to (( camp )) you can also camp with crouch position with a stand up position lol

Should we remmove the non mooving aspect of the game because someones can stop mooving and camp ?

Like you stop mooving you instantly die because been able to not moove lead to camp rigth ?

its exactly the same a saying prone involve camping this is a BAD misunderstanding of this feature thats for sure !

ive show multiple video of good agressive player using agressive play while using prone to get advantage of the terrain to reload to get cover from snipers etc..

If you said thats using terrain to not get shot is girly play so why at the begining of the match we should not just kill ourself so this will be man play ? runing like blind person to get shot from anywhere is been a man ? i certainly do not understand

iam mooving foward i take objective i cap flag i plant charge i blow up objective etc.. but iam a girly player because i take advantage of a cover when i need to reload when a sniper have me in hes scope at a range i cant even hit him because iam out of range This isnt look like man play to me this look like casual play !

Stew

2012-06-10, 07:19 AM

Stew: Learn english, stop insulting other people, and stop whining if someone tells you to learn english. Its a PAIN to read your posts.

Topic: It has been said plenty and plenty of times: The game does not have prone, it will not recive prone, and most people dont want prone. And it really doesnt need prone. So stop beating this dead horse over and over with the same arguments that came up long ago in one of the almost 600 (!) replys to this thread.

euh.. they said at E3 thats they will implement prone into the beta and will see how it goes thats whats ive seen i can give you the link if you want to

so and iam not insulting anyones iam not thats good in english so i can be misunderstand but i do my best anyway iam not born english and ive never been in english school

iam just trying to get thing straigth and have a true discussion thats it

for me saying i dont like prone is a opinion thats all

Therion I

2012-06-10, 07:21 AM

I'd rather prone was in the game but I preffer slower more tactical gameplay that I can make use of my brain. I'm tired of twitch but that's probably because I'm older now (30).

One thing I don't understand is people complaining about 'campers' in games where defending something (either a flag or a base) is 50% of the game.

Camping was a term coined back in Quake days for people who used to 'camp' a weapon respawn (usually the rocket launcher) so no one else could get it. I dont see it as a relevent term for defenders taking up tactical postions to get the drop on people rushing in without thinking.

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 07:35 AM

There was no misunderstanding with you calling me a fake person 3 times after i simply stated my opinion. Please point out how your poor english means you did not call me a phoney repeatable solely based on my opinion.

Nothing you said about prone has been a fact like you say it is, calling something a fact doesn't make it one. It is all just your opinion.

Camping has never been my concern. I have said repeatedly i do not want to walk into a control point and see MY whole platoon lying on the ground like girls. I do not care about my enemy doing something i think is cheap.

I care about the flow of a action game being turned into another shit simulation as if real war was fun. It isn't, this is a game we play for fun.

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 07:39 AM

If you said thats using terrain to not get shot is girly play so why at the begining of the match we should not just kill ourself so this will be man play ?

people have been taking cover for years before prone was even a thought in an fps. in the stream and alpha footage ive seen the rocks and foliage seem adequately large enough to crouch behind.

If there isn't something there i suggest you don't go that way.

Nasher

2012-06-10, 07:42 AM

Prone is not needed and woudn't really have any usefulness.

Besides, the community has spoken with an overwealming no on the poll. So EOD :)

Sturmhardt

2012-06-10, 07:51 AM

euh.. they said at E3 thats they will implement prone into the beta and will see how it goes thats whats ive seen i can give you the link if you want to

Yes, link plz, I dont believe that.

Stew

2012-06-10, 07:52 AM

Prone is not needed and woudn't really have any usefulness.

Besides, the community has spoken with an overwealming no on the poll :)

planetside 2 community will be a way more large than this in a upcoming futur i will wait for the beta and see whats the dev think about it and also How it will feel when they implement it but so far are the argumentation agains it turn into we dont want it thats it or prone = campers

this will be my last replies ive said everything thats must be said anyway

We will see in the beta and secret poll do not decide on who the game will be the dev team will decide beta test will also decide of many thing because they will have actual data about the game so iam looking foward to how it goes

i can deal with or whiout it bfbc2 as no prone kz2 kz3 as no prones and ive play those game a lots But i also think having prone is a very nice feature thats make you feel able to deal with many situation instead of feel unable to react when you have a cover just sligthly to small to fit in crouch to avoid bullet while reloading !

thats it

peace !

Stardouser

2012-06-10, 07:57 AM

I see the continued use of the camping argument but now, people are beginning to get specific, and talk about people sitting in the control point rooms.

This, I think, gets us to the heart of the matter. The real questions are:
1. What are you all trying to accomplish here? Prevent people from defending control points? Is that what it's all about, cripple defenders so that bases are easy to take, and the battles artificially speed up and rage back and forth all over a continent?
2. When not having prone fails to stop people from assuming prepared defensive positions in control point rooms, what will you people be suggesting to add or remove next? Pain fields that keep defenders from sitting inside control point rooms they own?

If you folks want gameplay to speed up, why don't you try some positive reinforcement instead of negative removal of player capabilities? For example, asking SOE to make it so that multiple attackers hacking a capture point will make it go down a bit faster, which will encourage more people to get their bodies inside that room? This is just an idea, it might make capturing TOO fast, but hey, it's an idea that doesn't directly restrict players, but instead empowers them.

Falcbe

2012-06-10, 08:03 AM

if prone is too be implemented, dolphin diving must be prevented.

stew learn english; your posts are nearly unreadable

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 08:08 AM

Im not asking for anything to be sped up. Like i have repeated again and again. I do not care what my enemy is doing.

I care about half my empire deciding to lye down to protect their kill streaks instead of sacrificing themselves for the greater good of pushing to capturing the facility. It is in the very lore of the game you will never die but respawn.

You are suggesting i should make suggestions to change make things faster. Why would I? Hacking is fast enough added with that anyone but maxes can do it now.

I am not agaisnt prone for the sake of better defense or better offense or a dislike for camping or a though that camping=defending. I dont give a rats ass about camping. I do not want to walk into a control point and see my squad lying down like a bucnh of girls, not for a tactical reason. For the sake of flow, fun, and a dozen people on the ground waiting will look retarded.

I JUST DO NOT LIKE PRONE OR THE FLOW IT CAUSES GAMES TO HAVE

Stardouser

2012-06-10, 08:17 AM

I care about half my empire deciding to lye down to protect their kill streaks instead of sacrificing themselves for the greater good of pushing to capturing the facility. It is in the very lore of the game you will never die but respawn.

I was not talking to you specifically although you were the first to mention camping control point rooms. That said:

1. For attackers: With or without prone, the low TTK and long walkbacks from the Galaxy will do much more to cause people to hang back and camp instead of pushing ahead than prone ever will.
2. Once a battle has progressed to where multiple empires hold multiple control points in a facility, someone has to defend and someone has to counterattack. If your squad/platoon is defending and you want to counterattack, organize a counterattack, and if they won't, you might be in the wrong squad. As far people outside your own squad/outfit, who are you to tell them how to play, and that they should not defend control point rooms? Remember, some people are going to do this no matter what, if there's no prone, they will do it crouching.

And lore doesn't matter, except for games which have those modes wherein if you die you are out til the round is over, you always respawn. The argument that people should play aggressively because they will respawn indefinitely doesn't work anywhere else, why should it work here just because lore exists that explains it?

And, the fact that you don't like prone is not an objective argument. As for the "flow that it causes games to have", as has been explained, people are going to defend control point rooms with or without it, and attackers are going to be afraid of the TTK/long walkback with or without it.

Stew

2012-06-10, 08:17 AM

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 08:19 AM

their is a thing call GRENADE thats will take care of many people lying on the ground just saying

Did you even read what i said? I am not talking about the enemy.

I clearly wrote I do not care about camping, its easy as hell to kill them.

It ruins flow.

Stew

2012-06-10, 08:20 AM

I will also laugh if they added prone...how will you use your minigun while prone? will it be sitting on the ground? HAHA

MAX and heavy assault whould not be able to prone

But infiltrator medic assault and engineer can and must

we will see in the beta

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 08:22 AM

I was not talking to you specifically although you were the first to mention camping control point rooms. That said:

1. For attackers: With or without prone, the low TTK and long walkbacks from the Galaxy will do much more to cause people to hang back and camp instead of pushing ahead than prone ever will.
2. Once a battle has progressed to where multiple empires hold multiple control points in a facility, someone has to defend and someone has to counterattack. If your squad/platoon is defending and you want to counterattack, organize a counterattack, and if they won't, you might be in the wrong squad. As far people outside your own squad/outfit, who are you to tell them how to play, and that they should not defend control point rooms? Remember, some people are going to do this no matter what, if there's no prone, they will do it crouching.

And lore doesn't matter, except for games which have those modes wherein if you die you are out til the round is over, you always respawn. The argument that people should play aggressively because they will respawn indefinitely doesn't work anywhere else, why should it work here just because lore exists that explains it?

And, the fact that you don't like prone is not an objective argument. As for the "flow that it causes games to have", as has been explained, people are going to defend control point rooms with or without it, and attackers are going to be afraid of the TTK/long walkback with or without it.

Defend all you want, i will be doing so as well. I just dont want people to lie down on the ground like bitches.

Go back to my first post, i was extremely objective. Douchebags like stew bring out the worst in me.

I respect your points though sir.

Algo

2012-06-10, 08:22 AM

"Nothing matters but my opinion, see linked video"

It's amazing this is still going after 6 hours.
My opinion is that prone is boring as fuck and you cant put "boring as fuck" in spreadsheets.

Why do you all have this obsession about hiding?
Get a friend or 11, get in a sunderer and cross no man's land.

Stew

2012-06-10, 08:25 AM

Did you even read what i said? I am not talking about the enemy.

I clearly wrote I do not care about camping, its easy as hell to kill them.

It ruins flow.

this will kill your teammates and they will start to think twice before doing thats and have you play a Map call operation metro ? in Bf3 ?

this is a way to small area for a 64 player but this kind of senario will happen frequently in planetside 2

ive play numerous time in this maps and no ones almost go prone exept for few second why ? because their will be tons of grenade , grenades launchers etc.. and player have to keep on the moove always

and most people learn thats lying on the ground isnt a good strategie in thats kind of situation

If you have play PS1 the base gameplay was all about corner camping lol and door camping lol prone or no prone its camping

their is no offense defense whiout camping

the thing is its frustrating when you have to atack and then your team mates start to camp back and do not moove foward but no matter prone or not they will camp if they are bad and scary players thats always been you can only hope to be in a good servers with good players lol

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 08:29 AM

this will kill your teammates and they will start to think twice before doing thats and have you play a Map call operation metro ? in Bf3 ?

this is a way to small area for a 64 player but this kind of senario will happen frequently in planetside 2

ive play numerous time in this maps and no ones almost go prone exept for few second why ? because their will be tons of grenade , grenades launchers etc.. and player have to keep on the moove always

and most people learn thats lying on the ground isnt a good strategie in thats kind of situation

If you have play PS1 the base gameplay was all about corner camping lol and door camping lol prone or no prone its camping

their is no offense defense whiout camping

the thing is its frustrating when you have to atack and then your team mates camp but no matter prone or not they will camp if they are bad and scary players thats always been you can only hope to be in a good servers with good players lol

how many times do i have to say i do not give a fuck about camping or your argument about people camping. my concern is flow, something completely different. Try better to understand what i am saying before you assume you know what i am saying.

Cuross

2012-06-10, 08:34 AM

Lol why won't this thread just die already?! The poll has the vast majority of votes on it, and I'm sure that we'll see prone show up in the Beta for a short while at least. All the pros and cons will be weighed and whether or not it actually adds anything more beneficial to the game than just a simple crouch will be decided then. Can someone just close this, haha. I'm just getting tired of seeing it on the top of the page :P

Stew

2012-06-10, 08:34 AM

how many times do i have to say i do not give a fuck about camping or your argument about people camping. my concern is flow, something completely different. Try better to understand what i am saying before you assume you know what i am saying.

the flow in battlefield never ends because iof the prone the flow never end or been affected by the prone feature players who act like pussy will interupt the flow and as soon as they start to get kill they start to camp back

this is always like thats Killzone 2 and 3 as no prone bfbc 2 as no prone and ive seen the flow of the game drop when you are in a bad player team who are afraid to die

it was even more true in killzone 3 with the (( tactical repawn )) heavily contested and hard to get so most people have this reflex when they got kill they start to camp back and back instead of rushing non stop

for them thats a reflex but a bad one because more you let the opthers team to moove foward the more you will be trap and soon youll be trap in your spawn

its true in everygame and have nothing to do with the prone mechanics i hope you understand

basti

2012-06-10, 08:36 AM

euh.. they said at E3 thats they will implement prone into the beta and will see how it goes thats whats ive seen i can give you the link if you want to

Please, because ive watched all the streams, and ive not heard that.

Stew

2012-06-10, 08:38 AM

Please, because ive watched all the streams, and ive not heard that.

Adams clegg say it i swear He as said thats prone isnt in yet but they want to test it out during the beta and if prone doesnt work it will not make it in the final build

it ws in a inteview iam looking for the link

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 08:42 AM

It will affect flow regardless of pussies or not. If you think it will change for the better that's your opinion. If you think prone wont change the flow at all you are delusional at best. Flow never "ends" as you say. It just gets ruined and turned into a shitastic flow.

I'm done debating you. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. and because you insulted me and never even acknowledged it i would like to say a last and hardy go fuck yourself cocksucker.

Sturmhardt

2012-06-10, 08:44 AM

Adams clegg say it i swear He as said thats prone isnt in yet but they want to test it out during the beta and if prone doesnt work it will not make it in the final build

it ws in a inteview iam looking for the link

Get the link and stop spreading rumours...

MacXXcaM

2012-06-10, 08:45 AM

...and because you insulted me and never even acknowledged it i would like to say a last and hardy go fuck yourself cocksucker.

way to end a discussion ^^

MadPenguin

2012-06-10, 08:48 AM

MAX and heavy assault whould not be able to prone

Thats fine for the max because they are very heavily armoured, but it puts HA at a huge disadvantage, especially when fighting in any kind of grassland

Immigrant

2012-06-10, 08:49 AM

Get the link and stop spreading rumours...

Quite blasphemous rumors might I add. If you can't link it that's as well as it wasn't said at all as far as I'm concerned.

Stew

2012-06-10, 08:52 AM

Thats fine for the max because they are very heavily armoured, but it puts HA at a huge disadvantage, especially when fighting in any kind of grassland

lol MAx prone will look also weir but it will be to complicated animation wise

Timey

2012-06-10, 08:54 AM

Quite blasphemous rumors might I add. If you can't link it that's as well as it wasn't said at all as far as I'm concerned.

day 3 near the end they discuss prone. Can't be arsed to find the exact time.

MadPenguin

2012-06-10, 08:54 AM

I think someone definitely mentioned prone, i think it was Clegg but all he said was if people want they COULD try prone out in beta and see how it worked. It is by no means certain we will see prone in beta

Immigrant

2012-06-10, 08:56 AM

MAXes shouldn't even be allowed to crouch. Seriously prone MAXes? :rofl: How can this even cross someones mind?

Stardouser

2012-06-10, 08:57 AM

OK, Gogita did this transcript of Totalbiscuit's DAY 2 Q&A with Arclegger:

here is the transcript:
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=42141

Here is the excerpt from the transcript :

Will there be prone?
It is still being considered. It was mentioned that while internally testing prone might work, it might have a negative impact when there are thousands of players. Therefore it is possible that it will be tested during beta

And here is Totalbiscuit's day 3 video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&list=UUy1Ms_5qBTawC-k7PVjHXKQ&v=0xcmHYuUbn0

Here is the description line from TB's day 3 video :

Day 2 won't be uploaded in full due to audio issues and will appear later as highlight reel.

Hopefully, the video being cut to a highlight reel doesn't cause Arclegger's confirmation of prone being considered to be cut. Totalbiscuit not putting day 2's recording up is beyond our control but this is NOT a rumor.

MadPenguin

2012-06-10, 08:57 AM

lol MAx prone will look also weir but it will be to complicated animation wise

I'm not saying don't do it cos it looks weird, i'm saying if you want to let medic/LA etc go prone, heavy assault will need also need to be able to go prone

bjorntju1

2012-06-10, 09:01 AM

Look at these guys do they need a prone to camp in the montain ? NOpe lol

This is another thing thats proove campers are campers and it will always have nothing to do with prone ... Prone = camping is irrevelant and compleatly wrong prone is a good feature for agressive player to deal with terrain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if-CZ9UVZYo

And that camping would be even worse if BF:BC 2 had prone. I think prone has no place in this game. And that is not only because I have played PlanetSide 1 and I am ''bias''. I fully understand and fully support that this game needs to be modernized. I fully support having modern elements, such as ADS, lesser TTK, faster paced than PS1 and having the tank driver also man the turret. Hell, I am happy those things are in and I would be dissapointed if they hadn't.

I also sometimes think that some PS vets need to understand that it is 2012 and that there are more people that are going to play this game who haven't played PS1. But this game is still called Planetside 2. A sequel to Planetside 1. We don't need every single feature from other newer FPS in this game. There is nothing wrong with doing stuff different than other games. And from what I have seen I am really happy that this game still looks like a Planetside game, while still being unique compared to other games that came out this generation.

But no. I absolutely don't want prone. It is not only annoying since it encourages camping even more. But also in CQC. People who hide behind crates, only popping their head out with makes it much more hard to see them and kill them. I just hate prone for the fact that it makes you a much smaller target and thus you are much harder to see. It does slow the pace down since a lot of people are going to lie down because they are afraid their K/D decreases. If you can't prone, people won't stay in the same spot for a long time. That it worked in a different game doesn't make it work in this game. Hell, on of my main reasons I don't like BF3 is that it has prone. I thought BF:BC2 was much more fun than BF3.

And stew, please try to type English better. I understand if it is hard for you because it is not your first language and there is nothing wrong with that. Neither its mine first language. It is just very hard to read your posts ;)

Stew

2012-06-10, 09:04 AM

I'm not saying don't do it cos it looks weird, i'm saying if you want to let medic/LA etc go prone, heavy assault will need also need to be able to go prone

nah because heavy assault have the minigun wich ot will not make sens for them to go prone but all others class yess

all the class exept max and heavy are more vesatile and base on movvements etc..

heavy and max are mostly defense and (( offense support )) they dont have the same role at all its like saying tank must fly

ThermalReaper

2012-06-10, 09:06 AM

Good lord. Here. What in the stream that made your mind think *Ninja edit "This game is unbalanced without prone." or "Omg no prone means the game is terrible" or "Prone is really really really really really *Five days later* really needed in this game. Really."?

Immigrant

2012-06-10, 09:07 AM

OK, Gogita did this transcript of Totalbiscuit's DAY 2 Q&A with Arclegger:

here is the transcript:
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=42141

Yup, that's good enough proof for me. Anyway my answer in this poll wouldn't change - PS2 doesn't need prone. It could work with prone just as well but it doesn't need it imo.

Anyway if light classes have prone then HAs should have it too. Only MAXes shouldn't.

bjorntju1

2012-06-10, 09:08 AM

Good lord. Here. What in the stream that made your mind think "This game is unbalanced without prone."?

And this, sometimes when I watch gameplay for some games I think ''Damn, I am going to be so annoyed by that''. But I didn't had that feeling when I was watching the PS2 streams.

Crator

2012-06-10, 09:09 AM

I can't remember off the top of my head which poll on this forums it was but there the majority of votes went against the idea. But that didn't stop the devs from still implementing it. So polls on this forums or any other forum don't necessarily dictate if the devs are going to put it in the game. They do read our suggestions though.

I can't stand it when people make blanket statements about something in relation to another game and how they implemented it. If your going to make a statement like that please add some convincing arguments/reasons for such.

Planetside has always been about situational awareness of your surroundings. The massive scale of the maps should allow many opportunities to work around prone campers. A counter attack to many things in Planetside has always been the backbone of the game.

I don't understand the comments about cloakers having prone. What does it matter if a cloaker can prone, you can't see them! :P

Here's a few folks in this thread who know how to think critically about ideas.

I also liked the ideas about have a cone of fire and an appropriate angle because lets be fair if you are on your stomach you are not rotating 360 degrees and shooting straight up in the air. I think it could be good in the game and I can see where it could hurt it. Both sides have valid opinions. I just wanted to make an account and post a more middle of the road opinion and see if I could get people to think before being so harsh with one another.

^^^ I agree with you about making the prone player more restricted in the way of how the weapon works. I would say though that it should depend on the type of weapon in hand. We know not all classes will have the same weapons. That should be a way they could balance how effective you are in the prone stance.

Hitting the deck is pretty much part of any internally consistent battlefield narrative. Not being able to drop in the face of fire, especially in the open, is really very confusing to me. It could certainly be implemented to not be stupid and cheesy. I don't understand the resistance.

I'm ok with prone, but only for medics and infiltrators, everyone else is wearing too much armor and carrying too much gear. If light assault get it, then I bet the jet pack is a large weak point on their hitbox.

This made me think of something funny. What if a heavy assault player had the ability to go prone but could not get up by himself without someone else's help? Ok, maybe that's a bit too far. So make it longer for the hvy assault to get up? With the option to purchase equipment that assisted with getting up.

EVILoHOMER

2012-06-10, 09:11 AM

Nah no prone is the best thing for the games pace

Stardouser

2012-06-10, 09:13 AM

Yup, that's good enough proof for me. Anyway my answer in this poll wouldn't change - PS2 doesn't need prone. It could work with prone just as well but it doesn't need it imo.

Anyway if light classes have prone then HAs should have it too. Only MAXes shouldn't.

I hadn't heard that HA might not get prone, but sure, you're right, they should get it too.

The real issue is the camping issue. I think prone is just the...scapegoat, shall we say. OK, let's assume we have no prone. When people still camp or play slow even in the absence of prone, what happens then? Do people argue for killcam to come back? Or worse?

ThermalReaper

2012-06-10, 09:13 AM

Nah no prone is the best thing for the games pace

I don't see how lying down in a sleeping postion is a good thing for a game's pace.

EVILoHOMER

2012-06-10, 09:15 AM

I don't see how lying down in a sleeping postion is a good thing for a game's pace.

It's a bad thing.

If there is prone then you just get K/D ppl camping far away with a sniper rifle and never moving. At least with no prone they r easy to spot so they have to keep moving.

Karriz

2012-06-10, 09:16 AM

I haven't played PS1, so I don't know how much of a problem prone was back then, but I think it's an important part to any FPS game that has somewhat real-life like combat (games like Tribes: Ascend and Quake are whole another thing). I don't mean realistic, but something that at least has real movement. Battlefield for example (although Bad Company 1&2 didn't have prone).

Especially when there are vehicles, infantry needs to have an ability to hide behind grass and holes in the ground.
There are ways to balance prone, and I don't think camping is that much of an issue in wide open battles. Inside the bases proning people will get killed by grenades quickly.

Of course it's unlikely at this point that they would include it, and it surely won't ruin the game either way, but they should do some testing in Beta.

ThermalReaper

2012-06-10, 09:18 AM

It's a bad thing.

If there is prone then you just get K/D ppl camping far away with a sniper rifle and never moving. At least with no prone they r easy to spot so they have to keep moving.

Oh I'm sorry, I misread your post as "Prone is the best thing for the games pace." :P

Eyeklops

2012-06-10, 09:19 AM

Why is this a big deal? Planetside 1 had prone.

http://www.planetside-universe.com/media/album/pjkw88ynro/PSScreenShot0015.jpg

Stardouser

2012-06-10, 09:20 AM

It's a bad thing.

If there is prone then you just get K/D ppl camping far away with a sniper rifle and never moving. At least with no prone they r easy to spot so they have to keep moving.

How far away is far away? Depending on what kind of distance you are talking about, if sniper rifles are too effective at too long a distance, either the people they shoot are not moving, or sniper rifles are overpowered in other ways.

Also, how are you going to spot someone that far away unless you know where they are? Are we going to have Q spamming that's so oversensitive that you just look in their direction and hit Q and they get spotted?

This isn't even about prone(this specific post), it's about range and easy spotting.

Stew

2012-06-10, 09:20 AM

OK, Gogita did this transcript of Totalbiscuit's DAY 2 Q&A with Arclegger:

here is the transcript:
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=42141

Here is the excerpt from the transcript :

And here is Totalbiscuit's day 3 video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&list=UUy1Ms_5qBTawC-k7PVjHXKQ&v=0xcmHYuUbn0

Here is the description line from TB's day 3 video :

Hopefully, the video being cut to a highlight reel doesn't cause Arclegger's confirmation of prone being considered to be cut. Totalbiscuit not putting day 2's recording up is beyond our control but this is NOT a rumor.

thanks i was not able to find the video of it but i was sure to have heard thats during e3 and i was 100 % certain it was adams saying it

but anyway people dont have to freak out it will be tested if it dont work it will be remoove it if it work well prone will make in the final build

with more data and testing we will see if it work for Ps2 its all i want give it a chance and see

Stew

2012-06-10, 09:22 AM

ThermalReaper

2012-06-10, 09:22 AM

What brought spotting into this? The main question is, what caused OP, and the supporters to think while they were watching the stream "Wow, I could use some prone in this game"? I don't see the point of it other than making people ungodly hard to find. Imagine an entire outfit going prone in the dark areas. Good luck finding any.

Crator

2012-06-10, 09:23 AM

What if they add a cloaked remote controlled probe (with counters for it of course) that would allow you to see all those camping prone punks in the CC room? Then you see they are there and throw in some flash bangs/grenades. Then we'll see how many prone cc campers we have! ;)

Gandhi

2012-06-10, 09:29 AM

Especially when there are vehicles, infantry needs to have an ability to hide behind grass and holes in the ground.
There are ways to balance prone, and I don't think camping is that much of an issue in wide open battles. Inside the bases proning people will get killed by grenades quickly.

One of the things that makes this game different from most shooters is that anyone can pull a vehicle at any time. In BF3 for example you have a limited number of vehicles on a map, and every map is designed to be played primarily as an infantry map. In Planetside 2 wide open spaces are ruled by vehicles, and it's been designed with this in mind. You'll never have to run through a wide open field against vehicles because you'll pull an ATV or a tank or an aircraft instead. Fields belong to vehicles.

That's not to say all outdoor combat will be ruled by vehicles. Enter a really mountainous area and suddenly infantry has plenty of places to hide and ambush. Enter a densely forested area and vehicles become useless. But open grasslands? Not for infantry. Not even prone would change that.

fishirboy

2012-06-10, 09:37 AM

Lest say prone was coming into the game for a temperary trial? What would there be restrictions on,

Will first off maxes and and big weapons could not go prone unless you switched to a smaller weapon and got prone.

There would be NO dolphin dives, because we all know that jumping into a door way with a camper/tactically placed person is just to easy. :rofl:

There would be a 1 second duration from up to down and back to up.

Infultratiors have to have 50% of there cloak off or just all of it because people can't move as a group and have an inferred scoop person that can detect the sniper, because heaven forbid that you move in Groups!

You could only see as far up as your spine will let you because it's not really fair.

You can only move slowly turning on the ground so that you can't do a 360 in a second moving. Good example for prone would be arma 2 if any one watches it.

Arma 2 DayZ : Prone - YouTube
START AT 1:50

fishirboy

2012-06-10, 09:40 AM

Also to all the haters of prone out there, why does every one use it if the majority hates it? You never have to use prone in a game that has it, like Black Ops and BF3? I thought this game PS2 was supposed to be a tactical game, kind of normal speed not fast, not this run and gun type game. :confused:

fishirboy

2012-06-10, 09:44 AM

Hamma

2012-06-10, 09:44 AM

Can't we all just get along?

Remember guys this is a passionate subject in the community. But let's not resort to name calling and bashing to get our points across.

Gandhi

2012-06-10, 09:46 AM

Also to all the haters of prone out there, why does every one use it if the majority hates it? You never have to use prone in a game that has it, like Black Ops and BF3?
Because if the game has it and you don't use it you put yourself at a disadvantage, that should be obvious.

MacXXcaM

2012-06-10, 09:50 AM

Is this thread ever going to end?

I believe Stew said his

this will be my last replies ive said everything thats must be said anyway

about 10 posts ago... :huh:

Stardouser

2012-06-10, 09:51 AM

Because if the game has it and you don't use it you put yourself at a disadvantage, that should be obvious.

Isn't that also true of multi-crew tanks(ie dedicated gunner)? Yet, I see people rushing to cheer for that being made optional.

fishirboy

2012-06-10, 09:54 AM

Can't we all just get along?

Remember guys this is a passionate subject in the community. But let's not resort to name calling and bashing to get our points across.

Just wait until beta guys come on! haha still a debate is a debate.

Gandhi

2012-06-10, 09:58 AM

Isn't that also true of multi-crew tanks(ie dedicated gunner)? Yet, I see people rushing to cheer for that being made optional.
Most of those people are cheering for it to be optional because they know SOE is dead set on having solo MBT's. I for one would rather have all MBT's require a dedicated gunner, making it optional is a compromise.

And in that case you should be at a disadvantage, because the other tank has taken 2 people off the battlefield while your solo tank only "costs" 1. Anyway, that's a whole other topic, and it depends a lot on how it's implemented (ie. a true extra gunner vs just giving the existing gunner both weapons).

mirwalk

2012-06-10, 10:03 AM

fishirboy

2012-06-10, 10:10 AM

I would have to say no to prone for gameplay reasons. With a big as the game world is, so much cover, brush, buildings and such, I think it would be a sniperfest if you put in prone. not to mention the issues of camo and finding people who are prone, without the use of a kill cam it becomes a mystery of finding out who shot you.
I think it would also increase the learning curve a bit too much as newer players would be getting the tar shot out of them but more experienced people.

could you at least read some one the opinions on this and how it would be taken care of like mine?

Lest say prone was coming into the game for a temperary trial? What would there be restrictions on,

Will first off maxes and and big weapons could not go prone unless you switched to a smaller weapon and got prone.

There would be NO dolphin dives, because we all know that jumping into a door way with a camper/tactically placed person is just to easy.

There would be a 1 second duration from up to down and back to up.

Infultratiors have to have 50% of there cloak off or just all of it because people can't move as a group and have an inferred scoop person that can detect the sniper, because heaven forbid that you move in Groups!

You could only see as far up as your spine will let you because it's not really fair.

You can only move slowly turning on the ground so that you can't do a 360 in a second moving. Good example for prone would be arma 2 if any one watches it.

Electrofreak

2012-06-10, 10:29 AM

This thread needs to go prone.

MadPenguin

2012-06-10, 10:31 AM

nah because heavy assault have the minigun wich ot will not make sens for them to go prone but all others class yess

all the class exept max and heavy are more vesatile and base on movvements etc..

heavy and max are mostly defense and (( offense support )) they dont have the same role at all its like saying tank must fly

Look, here's the point I'm making. Forget how stuff looks and look at it from a purely gameplay point of view. From what we've seen, HA isn't that much tougher than LA/engineer etc. So if the LA can go prone, it creates an unfair playing field for HA vs LA/engineer etc. So if you want LA to go prone, HA also need the ability to go prone in order to maintain an even playing field. If you are so averse to HA going prone because it looks silly, then in the spirit of fairness, no one should be able to go prone. Either that and give the HA something more.

Immigrant

2012-06-10, 10:32 AM

^^ I agree.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6ngY7JTTNR4/TeXE_HFhZeI/AAAAAAAABjY/BnsUcUwBthE/s1600/go+away.jpg

Stardouser

2012-06-10, 10:36 AM

EVILoHOMER

2012-06-10, 10:39 AM

Stardouser

2012-06-10, 10:43 AM

I mean I don't think Prone is something that would ruin the game but it just doesn't need it. I mean BFBC2 getting rid of prone made the combat so much better, it just keeps moving and it's why I prefer it over BF3.

I played BC2, and I almost never snipe, and usually prefer to attack aggressively, but at such times as I did snipe or camp, lack of prone never did anything to keep me moving. Sure, it kept me moving in terms of running behind a rock to reload or AD-AD-AD stepping, but I believe you mean moving as in moving toward objectives, and it most certainly didn't encourage that kind of moving.

Stew

2012-06-10, 10:45 AM

Look, here's the point I'm making. Forget how stuff looks and look at it from a purely gameplay point of view. From what we've seen, HA isn't that much tougher than LA/engineer etc. So if the LA can go prone, it creates an unfair playing field for HA vs LA/engineer etc. So if you want LA to go prone, HA also need the ability to go prone in order to maintain an even playing field. If you are so averse to HA going prone because it looks silly, then in the spirit of fairness, no one should be able to go prone. Either that and give the HA something more.

having this logic will lead in this kind of thing ...

Why tank do not have the ability to fly ? If you are so averse to tank going Fly because it looks silly, then in the spirit of fairness, no one should be able to Fly ...

pretty much it

MAX for sure is a mostly a vehicules need to be repair so this isnt a infantry its a mini mechwarior ! SO no prone automatically

for the heavy assault its not that iam againt is its thats HA have the MMguns and i dont know how it should be possible for them to use is while prone or if they go prone they cant use the MMgun just their regular LMG

And anyway i do not want prone as a offensive thing u can break up compleatly the shooting mechanics while prone i do not care !

the important thing about prone is mostly be able to use the terrain to get cover in many dangerous situation ! to reload safely etc..

EVILoHOMER

2012-06-10, 10:46 AM

The other thing I think goes against prone is flora in Planetside 2 vanishes quite quickly where in the small maps of BF3 you can see it from far away. People often hide in flora and don't realise they're not covered and to people in the distance you just see someone laying down. Where as with crouching only, people tend to to hide in that stuff and hide behind things like big rocks and trees.

Stew

2012-06-10, 10:51 AM

Ieyasu

2012-06-10, 10:51 AM

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 10:52 AM

Having prone benefits the game by offering you an additional tactical decision of making yourself more effective in fire-fights, but less effective at escaping or dodging.

It's the same trade off as that between light assault and heavy assault, just a less dramatic one that has less restrictions on its use.

ThermalReaper

2012-06-10, 10:54 AM

Will this thread ever die? Just leave it till the beta. And I still don't support prone.

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 10:54 AM

... lack of prone never did anything to keep me moving ...
This cannot be restated enough.

Stew

2012-06-10, 10:58 AM

Will this thread ever die? Just leave it till the beta. And I still don't support prone.

why you want the tread to die ? people are here to discuss if you dont want to be part of the disccusion no one force anyones to look at it bro

if anyones have something to say it their rigth no need for a tread to die if people still want to discuss about it

i dont get the point

ThermalReaper

2012-06-10, 11:00 AM

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 11:02 AM

Stew

2012-06-10, 11:11 AM

I don't get the point of prone. I just don't. What in the stream made people hate the fact that there isn't any prone? Because other games have it? I just want to know why prone is a topic that spawned a thread with a huge lifespan before the beta even began. I saw most of the stream(other than day 2 because I missed it) and prone never came into my head.

No you dont get the point some people want prone due to the utility of it and most of us arent camper at all just go on my youtube chanel and youll see thats iam a rusher a team player and anything but a camper no lol

I dont think anyones who want prones are campers or people who acutally want to camp

Camping is all about people mentality and this (( noobs but human reflex )) to sit back more and more as long as you get own

iam a experienced gamer and a competitive one so i will always keep rushing because i know thats if a sit in my spawn i will be trap like a rats

Prone is pretty usefull to rush and moove foward whiout dying rush kill 1 2 guys prone quick behind a cover Reload stand up run kill 1 2 switch to pistol 3 crouch behind a rock or prone reload both weapons crawl near a baricade .. stand up run fast cross a street kill 1 2 guys use the hillside as a cover prone be aware of where your getting shoot at stand up kill 1 2 this is the wway it work

this is the way prone is use for most of us

No prone make some frustrating situation especially while you need to reload and when you get shoot when their is vertical combat a little roadblock can save your life if prone is In if not your dead if you get shot froma top diagonal

Campers prone or no prone will not atack will not rush will only use infitrator go cloack on top of the hill ans snipe from distance prone or not they will do it a matter of personality not game mechanics

Stardouser

2012-06-10, 11:12 AM

Cuross

2012-06-10, 11:14 AM

why you want the tread to die ? people are here to discuss if you dont want to be part of the disccusion no one force anyones to look at it bro

if anyones have something to say it their rigth no need for a tread to die if people still want to discuss about it

i dont get the point

The reason why I personally think this thread needs to be closed is because there's been 44 pages of "discussion" up to now. Plus, this is a poll and I think the numbers are pretty solid where everyone's votes lie. Also, this topic has been beaten to death by virtually everyone with an opinion. Given that now we're just hearing the same things with different words and various other insults and less-than-helpful remarks, I think that discussion time is over... But that's just me. Everyone just needs a brief recess, let their nerves calm down and realize that they're arguing on the internet, which we all know is pretty pointless :P

Stew

2012-06-10, 11:15 AM

Why do you keep talking about the stream? This topic has been going on since before that. Plenty of other games have it and a lot don't have it. It's about freedom of movement, the ability to take cover, etc, without being arbitrarily forced to provide a full height silhouette at all times.

In fact, so many people are going off about camping that it's difficult to actually discuss prone; the only viewpoints that have anything to do with prone are really dolphin diving and snipers being hard to see. Prone, though it has far less to do with camping and slow gameplay than other things, provides a good place to argue the camping issue by proxy, that's why the thread is still going.

can you have more stream than HALO games ? is halo game have prone ? NO

Ieyasu

2012-06-10, 11:15 AM

the real question after 40+ pages of back and forth is, how many people who voted one way or another have changed their stance after reading the opinions of others shared in this thread?

fishirboy

2012-06-10, 11:18 AM

I don't get the point of prone. I just don't. What in the stream made people hate the fact that there isn't any prone? Because other games have it? I just want to know why prone is a topic that spawned a thread with a huge lifespan before the beta even began. I saw most of the stream(other than day 2 because I missed it) and prone never came into my head.

OK LETS DO THIS!!!

First off it is good for hiding and using as a better cover system, looking at BF3 snipers aren't that big of a problem and because of how big the map is I really don't think that having or not is going to stop them. You guys out there that say camping is for noobs, or there stupid is wrong, camping is a possibly option that should be encourage things that should be stopped are hacks and bugs in game that is what people should be focused on. The forums here are for people to give there own opinion and for you to say that it should stop is not right, just because you hate it does not mean that every one else does. It's like saying the government hates free speech so there just going to take it out. Camping in doors is easy to get rid of, if there pron just chuck a grenade in there. Also just simply not allowing cloak well prone is just fine. In other words, if anything that is going to be added into the game it needs to have the main thing, balance. No balance and every one hates it.

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 11:19 AM

the real question after 40+ pages of back and forth is, how many people who voted one way or another have changed their stance after reading the opinions of others shared in this thread?

An excellent point.

McBane

2012-06-10, 11:20 AM

From my experiences in other games with prone support (Arma 1 and 2, Battlefield series) this feature helps to make enemy encounters much more tactical. And I didn't notice at all that it entices people to camp. So I am absolutely for prone support to allow PS2's gameplay to be as diverse and flexible as possible.

Stew

2012-06-10, 11:20 AM

The reason why I personally think this thread needs to be closed is because there's been 44 pages of "discussion" up to now. Plus, this is a poll and I think the numbers are pretty solid where everyone's votes lie. Also, this topic has been beaten to death by virtually everyone with an opinion. Given that now we're just hearing the same things with different words and various other insults and less-than-helpful remarks, I think that discussion time is over... But that's just me. Everyone just needs a brief recess, let their nerves calm down and realize that they're arguing on the internet, which we all know is pretty pointless :P

this subject should be discuss in the respect but respect mean wanting to undestand the very subject

and the people agains it keep saying prone encourage camping

but when they got legions of exemples of games thats do not suport prone but still have many campers so its suposed to be clear thats prone a game mechanics isnt reponsable for the players attitude campers are campers

and if people respect each others thats mean to not insult and call name on people this tread and goe on and on if nessesary and if new people come in they should like to discuss about it as well their is no need to get in a tread if you have no interest in it

fishirboy

2012-06-10, 11:21 AM

An excellent point.

dito

Algo

2012-06-10, 11:21 AM

just go on my youtube chanel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=a3L04OgHdL0#t=680s

I watched it... shoot, belly flop, reload, pop up, rinse repat. If in trouble, hump medpack

Seriously, let the other guys argument your case, its better.

edit: also by the looks of it you're sitting next to a spawn.

ThermalReaper

2012-06-10, 11:24 AM

Star said it right, I read most of the thread and it's basically stew posting Battlefield 3 sniper/recon videos, people saying that it'll make visibilty impossible and camping very possible. However, I'm taking about the stream a lot because it's possibly the only video that showcases a good part of the game with a good number of players. And yes, I'm aware it's alpha. Isn't really a good example but it's the only one at the moment.

My problems with prone:
1)It is not needed. You have crouch. Why would you need prone? Battlefield bad company 2 didn't have prone and all the people I asked never asked for it.

2) Visibility would be ruined, especially in night(This is an assumption)Almost 90% of the kills and deaths I got in the 20 or so minutes I've played MW2, MW3, Black ops and BF3 combined on a console was by prone, either because their postion is already hard enough to hit, but because they have prone they are nearly impossible to hit other than a stray headshot(s) (and I might add the current kick of the according to the E3 showcase weapons could make this even harder.) or decreasing visibility by a huge margin. The most obvious example of this would be the night ops. Imagine finding a small team of classes that can't go prone, firing at them and finding out that the rest of their team is going prone on the ground(Obviously I'm talking about outdoors here.).

I know I just said the thread is full of reason 2. But it's a solid reason.
A good cover mechanic is silly as if you are in the middle of the battle, no amount of shrinking your butt on the ground will help you.

McBane

2012-06-10, 11:26 AM

but when they got legions of exemples of games thats do not suport prone but still have many campers so its suposed to be clear thats prone a game mechanics isnt reponsable for the players attitude campers are campers

I concur. It's simply an attitude problem; I can't say that I experienced more camping in Battlefield or Arma than in other games, but it helped a lot to make infantry combat more diverse.

Stew

2012-06-10, 11:26 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=a3L04OgHdL0#t=680s

I watched it... shoot, belly flop, reload, pop up, rinse repat. If in trouble, hump medpack

Seriously, let the other guys argument your case, its better.

watch it compleatly and youll see thats iam actually trying to moove foward the most as possible ;) did you notice iive alway have snippers shot around me in my 5.1 headset you feell them ;) so yeah the video is call snipers are jerk because their was so many of them and actually they where not prone but stand up and crouch behind some crates lol look their

http://youtu.be/a3L04OgHdL0?t=13m51s

and you shall see thats iam ussing prone to maintain my rush trough their possition iam trying to make the spawn to switch back if you call me a campers in a death match with 64 players on this i just can say

lolllllllllllllll

Stew

2012-06-10, 11:29 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=a3L04OgHdL0#t=680s

edit: also by the looks of it you're sitting next to a spawn.

i think it should be good for you to watch the whole video this is a DM with 64 players i cant controles the random respawn lol sometime people can pop up in front of you my personal goal was to make the spawn to switch back and i almost suceed ;)

McBane

2012-06-10, 11:29 AM

My problems with prone:
1)It is not needed. You have crouch. Why would you need prone? Battlefield bad company 2 didn't have prone and all the people I asked never asked for it.

Just for the record: Bad Company 2 is not a "real" BF game (last one was BF2 and 2142). Ironically, I saw much more campers in Bad Company 2 than in other BF games with prone support.

Algo

2012-06-10, 11:30 AM

So your point was, prone is ok in a random 64 player tdm with random respawns, i agree then.

ThermalReaper

2012-06-10, 11:33 AM

Just for the record: Bad Company 2 is not a "real" BF game (last one was BF2). Ironically, I saw much more campers in Bad Company 2 than in other BF games with prone support.

I've only played Bad company 2(and a bit of battlefield 2 but it was offline, although it was a blast) so I'm not sure if I should speak of this. Also in the servers I played in people only camp during base camping till one or two players capture the point on the edge of the map.and battlefield 2 played much better than battlefield 3 IMO :evil:

But still, there was no reason for adding prone unless there is airducts.(If there are airducts that you can sneak in, I approve of prone_

Edit: Also, most stealth games use crouching as sneak, and not prone. :lol:

Stew

2012-06-10, 11:34 AM

So your point was, prone is ok in a random 64 player tdm with random respawns, i agree then.

No the point is prone is helpfull for situational stuff like having 1000 snipers bullet flying in your direction while you already try to focus on something , when you need to reload and their is no other cover than a 2 feet tall road block when their is only a tiny crate or barricade etc..etc..

Your head will be expose and you will die if their is no prone so the solution could be to kill myself as soon as i run out of amo ?

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 11:35 AM

To try and progress this discussion, I want to make counter arguments to every point raised against prone and try and find which specific sub-point is the one which both sides disagree on.

It's a bad thing.

If there is prone then you just get K/D ppl camping far away with a sniper rifle and never moving. At least with no prone they r easy to spot so they have to keep moving.

Snipers aren't generally 100% accurate so normally you can realise there is a sniper watching the area without dying to them. Also snipers only have a limited number of locations they can be in due to the fact they have to be able to draw a direct line of sight. Of these possible locations there are even fewer that given sufficient cover to avoid being seen, even with prone. Additionally they'll typically have to be in their territory, further reducing the possible locations.

With a bit of thought it's not too hard to work out which few areas they could be in. We also have thermal scopes so it's very easy to check if the enemy are hiding in cover. Also you can watch for muzzle flare and listen to which direction the shot comes from. If they're not firing at you, they're not a problem!

Further, camping people are incredibly easy prey for aircraft and vehicles, which are involved in basically every battle in PlanetSide.

I think at one point they said they'd put a proximity sensor as a cert for the FS aircraft so that would offer yet another way to find camping enemies.

Basically identifying a target by sight is only one of a plethora of ways you could do so, thus adding prone only means you need to think a bit harder and use other methods, which I feel is a good and interesting addition of challenge and variety.

Ieyasu

2012-06-10, 11:37 AM

the solution could be to kill myself as soon as i run out of amo ?

sure. part of the storyline is that you respawn anyway and there is no permanent death.

Stew

2012-06-10, 11:38 AM

sure. part of the storyline is that you respawn anyway and there is no permanent death.

lol

MadPenguin

2012-06-10, 11:39 AM

Why shouldn't heavy assault be able to go prone? Instead of designing machine guns to be hipfire only, design them to also allow prone. And even if machine guns can't be done that way, HA can still use other weapons that wouldn't prevent prone.

There has been some confusion here, i'm not saying HA shouldn't go prone. I was replying to some who suggested HA shouldn't be able to go prone, but LA and the other classes should

Ieyasu

2012-06-10, 11:41 AM

well in all honestly PS2 isnt a round of Team Deathmatch where your dying gives the other team points towards their victory. out of ammo and out in bfe? take one for the team and lemming your way to a fully loaded weapon via spawn tube.

Revanmug

2012-06-10, 11:41 AM

The problem with this logic is assuming defending a base is camping it, when in reality you're actually just defending it.

Camping would be attacking the spawn tubes and not destroying them. If you know what those are.

A camper is a player who sit in a specifique place for certain period of time. Camping in a online fps never made any difference if you are defending or attacking since there is not such thing in most fps.

You example is actually call Spawn killing.

Get your fact right.

Algo

2012-06-10, 11:42 AM

Ieyasu

2012-06-10, 11:43 AM

Or, you know, make friends to play with you, i know it's hard for some tho.

nah, faster to just respawn.

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 11:46 AM

2) Visibility would be ruined, especially in night(This is an assumption)Almost 90% of the kills and deaths I got in the 20 or so minutes I've played MW2, MW3, Black ops and BF3 combined on a console was by prone, either because their postion is already hard enough to hit, but because they have prone they are nearly impossible to hit other than a stray headshot(s) (and I might add the current kick of the according to the E3 showcase weapons could make this even harder.) or decreasing visibility by a huge margin. The most obvious example of this would be the night ops.

Again, if they're not firing at you then they're not a problem, they're not going to be 100% accurate and they fire tracer rounds. Add muzzle flare and they're definitely not hard to see at night.

Prone means they are stationary. They will out-shoot you if you're also stationary and non-prone, but being mobile gives enough of an advantage to balance that.

If you're talking about short-range encounters, grenades and popping in and out of cover are the way to play against this (you know where their head will be, they don't, so you have an advantage in the split second after you pop out).
Long-range encounters involve using cover and distracting them while a team-mate flanks them. You shouldn't expect to be able to win a fire-fight when you've walked straight into an area someone else has prepared to defend. They should reliably win that situation.

If I've misrepresented your position then please can you clarify it.

McBane

2012-06-10, 11:49 AM

I've only played Bad company 2(and a bit of battlefield 2 but it was offline, although it was a blast) so I'm not sure if I should speak of this. Also in the servers I played in people only camp during base camping till one or two players capture the point on the edge of the map.

Over time the camping in Bad company 2 really got out of hand because the sniper rifles were too unrealistically precise. So at the end half the teams were camping snipers, even though prone was not in the game.

and battlefield 2 played much better than battlefield 3 IMO :evil:

We definitely can agree on that! BF3 is an insult to BF2 vets. In fact, many BF2 vets have high hopes that PS2 will become the spiritual successor to BF2/2142, as they are so frustrated with DICE/EA. If the PS2 developers keep their promises and continue to listen to their fanbase, I and many other BF2 vets will permanently switch over to PS2 as their main game. Furthermore, if I am treaty fairly I also don't have any problem to financially support PS2 at all. I would do it on mere principle.

But still, there was no reason for adding prone unless there is airducts.(If there are airducts that you can sneak in, I approve of prone_

Edit: Also, most stealth games use crouching as sneak, and not prone. :lol:

Well, Bad company 2 is a sorry excuse for a Battlefield game (as is BF3). In BF2 or Arma1/2 the prone position significantly adds to the experience. But, of course, you are entitled to have a different opinion on that matter.

mirwalk

2012-06-10, 11:51 AM

could you at least read some one the opinions on this and how it would be taken care of like mine?

Lest say prone was coming into the game for a temperary trial? What would there be restrictions on,

Will first off maxes and and big weapons could not go prone unless you switched to a smaller weapon and got prone.

There would be NO dolphin dives, because we all know that jumping into a door way with a camper/tactically placed person is just to easy.

There would be a 1 second duration from up to down and back to up.

Infultratiors have to have 50% of there cloak off or just all of it because people can't move as a group and have an inferred scoop person that can detect the sniper, because heaven forbid that you move in Groups!

You could only see as far up as your spine will let you because it's not really fair.

You can only move slowly turning on the ground so that you can't do a 360 in a second moving. Good example for prone would be arma 2 if any one watches it.

I did post this before I read about 20 some odd pages. So allow me to elaborate.

I am not against dolphin diving as much as some people. With the sheer amount of players that will be fighting, its not that big of an issue. I remember in PS1 people getting into odd spots to defend bases. Tops of doors, ledges, ect. This was in no way a hack... It was a good tactical decision and made it more difficult to overpower.

As you may have seen in the live stream, people were getting onto the Amp station's arms (for the lack of a better word atm) and shooting down on other players. Usually this person would be killed by air or someone behind them. Also LA's with their jump packs can get in some weird places.

Add to the above with camo, some cloaking, and prone, you end up having a number of situations start where the opposing player is ambushed and has little chance of fighting back. Even with a longer TTK.

The reduction of hit space, the angles, the visibility, the camo, the cloak, all add up to where I feel most people will be in MAX suits as much as possible since you will be getting ambushed at all times. With the lack of kill cam it can be quite difficult to locate where the fire is coming from. I feel that yes it does slow down gameplay, give more help to defenders, and make everyone quite a bit more cautious. But the BIGGEST impact is that it will turn off more players to the game then what would be turned off by the lack of that ability. The newer players will be getting blasted and sniped out of nowhere, they may even come back for more 3 or 4 times for the same thing, then just say forget it and move back to another game.

BF3 and other games were limited on avenues and space most of the time. Combined with a kill cam, a person couldn't stick around in one spot for long before someone hunted them down. In PS2 there is a HUGE map, no killcam and the chaos of large scale battle, These people will be largely unmolested. Save via someone stumbling across them or air people just generally pounding a base and getting these people in the spam.

The other thing that comes into play is like people said earlier there is the question of where the bullets come from on a character. If you put in prone, the gun needs to react fully with the environment. Otherwise you can generate a larger field of fire then you could if you were actually at a location. Think of being prone on a ledge. You would need to have your gun past the ledge and a good chunk of your body to get out enough to actually shoot downwards. Not to mention your accuracy would go to hell. But in the gameworld, you can usually get by with very little body showing.

So for these reasons I think prone should not be included in the game. If it is I think it will be more difficult to balance and unbug. And would drive off players that would have otherwise have stayed around. Many people here want prone added but if it is left out I think a good number will still play. So on aggregate it is a better decision to not have it.

Stardouser

2012-06-10, 11:52 AM

Duck season!

MadPenguin

2012-06-10, 11:54 AM

having this logic will lead in this kind of thing ...

Why tank do not have the ability to fly ? If you are so averse to tank going Fly because it looks silly, then in the spirit of fairness, no one should be able to Fly ...

pretty much it

MAX for sure is a mostly a vehicules need to be repair so this isnt a infantry its a mini mechwarior ! SO no prone automatically

for the heavy assault its not that iam againt is its thats HA have the MMguns and i dont know how it should be possible for them to use is while prone or if they go prone they cant use the MMgun just their regular LMG

And anyway i do not want prone as a offensive thing u can break up compleatly the shooting mechanics while prone i do not care !

the important thing about prone is mostly be able to use the terrain to get cover in many dangerous situation ! to reload safely etc..

No, you're abusing the logic and turning it into something unrecognisable. If the classes are currently balanced, then giving certain classes beside the HA the ability to go prone suddenly unbalances the situation and makes HA worse off.

So i said either give all these classes (beside max ofc) prone or non of them. Or if you insist on giving the others prone but not HA, then they also need something extra for balance.

i.e if 2 things, A and B, are balanced, and you improve A, then in order to keep things balanced you do one of 3 things:
1)give B the same upgrade.
2)take the upgrade away from A
3)give B something extra as an upgrade

You cant just take 2 things that are balanced, improve one and leave it at that.

Stew

2012-06-10, 12:01 PM

No, you're abusing the logic and turning it into something unrecognisable. If the classes are currently balanced, then giving certain classes beside the HA the ability to go prone suddenly unbalances the situation and makes HA worse off.

So i said either give all these classes (beside max ofc) prone or non of them. Or if you insist on giving the others prone but not HA, then they also need something extra for balance.

i.e if 2 things, A and B, are balanced, and you improve A, then in order to keep things balanced you do one of 3 things:
1)give B the same upgrade.
2)take the upgrade away from A
3)give B something extra as an upgrade

You cant just take 2 things that are balanced, improve one and leave it at that.

It will be enough of a balanced to simply do not allow HA to use the MMgun while prone he will have a pistol and a LMG to use while prone Fair enough for me !

Cuross

2012-06-10, 12:05 PM

Well, here is the only piece of real discussion I'm going to offer.

I'm never opposed to prone so long as there is an animation of you doing it or a couple seconds where you can't fire your weapon so that you don't just belly flop to avoid being killed in the middle of combat which happens in every single game that allows it. But this is in response to the argument of cover. Let's look at all the footage and all the videos that we've currently seen. The argument is that there is a need to prone to avoid gunfire in a situation where cover is unavailable. So far as I've seen, there has been cover aplenty. Everywhere.

I'm not going to touch the camping issue, not with a ten foot poll (see what I did there?), but tactical advantages are available to prone, however, 1) going prone lowers your mobility so you're pretty much dead meat against anyone who knows you're there 2) going prone indoors will most likely get you killed faster 3) with all the cover already available to you on the map, most people will not be using it anyway because it's simply quicker to crouch around objects, get the kill, and sprint toward the objective 4) prone gives you even worse area of effect since your line of sight is now obstructed by pretty much all the cover that I've previously mentioned because I have seen so many waist high walls that you're either crouched or in the open 5) and finally, Liberators. I'm not even going to bother with an explanation for point 5.

Now, prone is not a bad mechanic if pulled off right, but the mechanic itself will be superfluous as the flow of combat shifts and changes due to situations that I can guarantee most people will forget it even exists. Here's why: Prone against infantry=survival rate doesn't change. Prone against MAX=survival rate goes down. Prone against tank=survival rate nearly 0%. Prone against aircraft=survival rate goes down.

Static gameplay is not bad gameplay, but you can't pull MBT's, MAX suits, or customize your gear without resources that require you to capture bases and prone doesn't = static gameplay. Once again, there are tactical advantages to prone that I'm not mentioning, but it will be a superfluous mechanic in a shifting battlefield.

NOW! for the sake of "discussion" that is and/or will happen, someone offer counterpoints to these in regards to PS2, not BF3 or Arma or whatever nonsense! And keep camping out of it, this is just regarding a mechanic, not a playstyle.

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 12:14 PM

But the BIGGEST impact is that it will turn off more players to the game then what would be turned off by the lack of that ability.

This, not adding in prone will affect people who want it sure, adding it in on the other hand will exponentially more affect those who don't want it.

Amount of potential players lost without prone added < amount of potential players lost with prone added.

Karriz

2012-06-10, 12:29 PM

I think prone fits perfectly well in slower-paced tactical games. You're not supposed to be running around all the time, sometimes the best solution is simply to crawl and be quiet.

I don't see how camping could ruin the game, as there are so many different tactics, and to be succesfull you must capture bases.
It's not like Call of Duty where maps and gameplay mechanics encourage KDR padding.

So, prone is being included in many different games, from CoD to ARMA. In terms of tactics and scale, Planetside 2 is closer to ARMA (although gameplay itself is not that complicated and slow).

Stew

2012-06-10, 12:30 PM

This, not adding in prone will affect people who want it sure, adding it in on the other hand will exponentially more affect those who don't want it.

Amount of potential players lost without prone added < amount of potential players lost with prone added.

i will say thats this thing i saw now is unusual

on battlefield forums people where MAD at dice to not have implement prone in BFBC lol

so if you take the 1 000 000 potential players who are going to play planetside iam pretty much sure most of them will want prone

people who are going to play planetside arent just the planetside 1 players like me or like the vets who even play it these days but considering ive play over 1900 hours in 3 years ive play a lots lol

but a 300 votes poll will certainly not represent all those potential millions of players comming from games like battlefield , MAG , Killzone , call of duty , arma , and many more

so i think most of those people will actually want prone in

so anyway we will see give it a chance and if its really dont work they will remoove it

Cuross

2012-06-10, 12:37 PM

but a 300 votes poll will certainly not represent all those potential millions of players

Statistically speaking, three hundred votes is enough of a sample group to represent the population.

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 12:40 PM

I did post this before I read about 20 some odd pages. So allow me to elaborate.

I am not against dolphin diving as much as some people. With the sheer amount of players that will be fighting, its not that big of an issue. I remember in PS1 people getting into odd spots to defend bases. Tops of doors, ledges, ect. This was in no way a hack... It was a good tactical decision and made it more difficult to overpower.

As you may have seen in the live stream, people were getting onto the Amp station's arms (for the lack of a better word atm) and shooting down on other players. Usually this person would be killed by air or someone behind them. Also LA's with their jump packs can get in some weird places.

Add to the above with camo, some cloaking, and prone, you end up having a number of situations start where the opposing player is ambushed and has little chance of fighting back. Even with a longer TTK.

The reduction of hit space, the angles, the visibility, the camo, the cloak, all add up to where I feel most people will be in MAX suits as much as possible since you will be getting ambushed at all times. With the lack of kill cam it can be quite difficult to locate where the fire is coming from. I feel that yes it does slow down gameplay, give more help to defenders, and make everyone quite a bit more cautious. But the BIGGEST impact is that it will turn off more players to the game then what would be turned off by the lack of that ability. The newer players will be getting blasted and sniped out of nowhere, they may even come back for more 3 or 4 times for the same thing, then just say forget it and move back to another game.

BF3 and other games were limited on avenues and space most of the time. Combined with a kill cam, a person couldn't stick around in one spot for long before someone hunted them down. In PS2 there is a HUGE map, no killcam and the chaos of large scale battle, These people will be largely unmolested. Save via someone stumbling across them or air people just generally pounding a base and getting these people in the spam.

The other thing that comes into play is like people said earlier there is the question of where the bullets come from on a character. If you put in prone, the gun needs to react fully with the environment. Otherwise you can generate a larger field of fire then you could if you were actually at a location. Think of being prone on a ledge. You would need to have your gun past the ledge and a good chunk of your body to get out enough to actually shoot downwards. Not to mention your accuracy would go to hell. But in the gameworld, you can usually get by with very little body showing.

So for these reasons I think prone should not be included in the game. If it is I think it will be more difficult to balance and unbug. And would drive off players that would have otherwise have stayed around. Many people here want prone added but if it is left out I think a good number will still play. So on aggregate it is a better decision to not have it.

I think my main point of contention here is that I think ambushes and low TTKs are good things as they mean that thinking tactically outweighs motor skills as the determining factor in who wins an engagement. If you prepare before an engagement, get a good location, know where the enemy is coming from (doing some recon) then you should win hands down to someone who just stumbles onto the battlefield.

I do, however, agree that this seems rather unfriendly to new players. I would think that removing the OSOK headshots fromthe sniper rifle to be the main problem though, as new players won't even be able to spot snipers who are just crouched, most of the time. Prone, I think, makes little difference to new players while this is still a feature in the game.

As I've said before about the pace of the game, campers gonna camp. We'd have to mark that as an unresolvable point if you think that campers only camp because of prone, or that prone makes campers more likely to camp.

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 12:40 PM

i will say thats this thing i saw now is unusual

on battlefield forums people where MAD at dice to not have implement prone in BFBC lol

Because it was an existing franchise that previously had prone no?

Which is the exact opposite in which case is exactly why you are hearing majority say they dont want prone here you know in the actual forum WE are talking in.

You say a forum vote here matters little but what some people said on another forum from a completely different game all the sudden matters to you? So when a majority from a completely different forum from a completely different game matters when it supports your opinion. But all the opinions here dont matter cause they dont agree with yours?

This is not battlefield. If you want to play battlefield then you are free to do so.

Like I said I am not debating back and forth with you anymore for you have a lack of reading comprehension and common sense. Just because you have a lot to say does not make a single thing you said worth reading.

mirwalk

2012-06-10, 12:41 PM

i will say thats this thing i saw now is unusual

on battlefield forums people where MAD at dice to not have implement prone in BFBC lol

so if you take the 1 000 000 potential players who are going to play planetside iam pretty much sure most of them will want prone

people who are going to play planetside arent just the planetside 1 players like me or like the vets who even play it these days but considering ive play over 1900 hours in 3 years ive play a lots lol

but a 300 votes poll will certainly not represent all those potential millions of players comming from games like battlefield , MAG , Killzone , call of duty , arma , and many more

so i think most of those people will actually want prone in

so anyway we will see give it a chance and if its really dont work they will remoove it

The allure of Planetside is more in its scale and myriad of options. I think if prone is not included people may want it. But if they like the game it will be a gripe but not a reason that causes people to quit.

While the inverse is that if you put it in, once in, it will be difficult to remove as players will not be happy to see it leave. The people who left because of prone will not be around to talk about it.

A good player can use prone to great effect and as I stated earlier it changes the flow of gameplay. If the first timers feel like they are just being destroyed by other players, they would usually leave instead of fighting through it to become good enough to feel like a worthy player. Without prone this is a smaller curve.

I know I come across as a genie out of the bottle type thing when discussing prone. Maybe I am just a bit biased. Most of my good moments in FPSs didn't count prone as a necessary part. A good number of my bad moments did count prone as a part. Usually the issue of locating an enemy when they are prone, once they start firing, and dying before I had a chance to do much. Or an area being defended by two or three prone snipers in bush cover, where it is near impossible to see them or return fire.

Maybe it could work out swimmingly, I feel once you put it in, its too late. It will never get pulled back out and the decision has been made. People will give up on the game instead of going to the forums and demanding you remove prone. If the devs feel this is what is causing an issue, you will get current players demanding prone remain since the only ones left are those who like it.

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 12:43 PM

Statistically speaking, three hundred votes is enough of a sample group to represent the population.

Even though I disagree with the opinion represented by this poll, this is correct.

Facts and empirical methods must always be regarded as superior to any other argument else all issues become intransigent.

mirwalk

2012-06-10, 12:46 PM

As I've said before about the pace of the game, campers gonna camp. We'd have to mark that as an unresolvable point if you think that campers only camp because of prone, or that prone makes campers more likely to camp.

Well I think a pure tactical gameplay model is not what most FPSers desire. Teamwork yes, but tatical on the level of a Ghost recon type thing? Not so much. You want the player to feel he has a chance you know, not that it just matters who saw who first.

Yes campers are going to camp. But the effectiveness of a crouched camper is a bit. A prone camper is much more dangersous. Now prone with camo and foliage. Even experienced players will have a tough time picking out the camper, much less newbies. You have that person crouched and now it is a valid tactic but not an overwhelming one.

Stew

2012-06-10, 12:46 PM

Statistically speaking, three hundred votes is enough of a sample group to represent the population.

this poll is also not public no we cant see whos voting multiples accont can be involve on both side and even thats

if you look at battlefield forums the number of player asking form prone and cursing for it ws around 90 % lol so yeah ;)

Cuross

2012-06-10, 12:48 PM

Even though I disagree with the opinion represented by this poll, this is correct.

Facts and empirical methods must always be regarded as superior to any other argument else all issues become intransigent.

Lol even correct use of statistics leaves a bad taste in anyone's mouth. I see the appeal of prone, but I don't find it necessary as I mentioned in my earlier post, but I decided to leave out the fact that there are a great plenty reasons why the results are what they are.

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 12:52 PM

The allure of Planetside is more in its scale and myriad of options. I think if prone is not included people may want it. But if they like the game it will be a gripe but not a reason that causes people to quit.

While the inverse is that if you put it in, once in, it will be difficult to remove as players will not be happy to see it leave. The people who left because of prone will not be around to talk about it.

A good player can use prone to great effect and as I stated earlier it changes the flow of gameplay. If the first timers feel like they are just being destroyed by other players, they would usually leave instead of fighting through it to become good enough to feel like a worthy player. Without prone this is a smaller curve.

I know I come across as a genie out of the bottle type thing when discussing prone. Maybe I am just a bit biased. Most of my good moments in FPSs didn't count prone as a necessary part. A good number of my bad moments did count prone as a part. Usually the issue of locating an enemy when they are prone, once they start firing, and dying before I had a chance to do much. Or an area being defended by two or three prone snipers in bush cover, where it is near impossible to see them or return fire.

Maybe it could work out swimmingly, I feel once you put it in, its too late. It will never get pulled back out and the decision has been made. People will give up on the game instead of going to the forums and demanding you remove prone. If the devs feel this is what is causing an issue, you will get current players demanding prone remain since the only ones left are those who like it.

I do agree that it would be much harder to remove it than add it in.
However, I feel that the same number of people would leave based on it either being in or not in. Very few people don't play games based on these sorts of reasons.

As I said earlier about new players, OSOK headshots, which are in the game already, have much more of an effect on the 'unfairness' of sniping for new players than prone.

Countering prone players is basically the same as countering camping players that are hidden well that are merely crouched: Watch for muzzle flare, watch the bullet trajectory, try and think about where is the best place for a sniper to be, and communicate well. Preparing in advance for an engagement, and securing advantageous territory, should be rewarded.

I've had lots of good moments with prone, hiding from tanks inside buildings. Also just hugging the ground when being shot at by snipers or people with machine-guns. The tension is great!

Stardouser

2012-06-10, 12:54 PM

Statistically speaking, three hundred votes is enough of a sample group to represent the population.

Well...over at the Mordor forums, things like Disabling, 3D spotting, killcam etc were constantly defeated in 300-400 person polls. A lot people argued that Mordor was too many PC players, BF2/2142 vets, and other things, to be a valid sample. The same could be said of here, for being a disproportionate sample of PS1 vets.

With that said, they started running polls on Battlelog, that have gotten over 50,000 responses each. There have, to my knowledge, only been two polls that directly go up against a similar poll on Mordor: One for suppression and one for killcam.

The results of the suppression poll on Battlelog were archived here:
http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/battlefield-3/1478561-battlelog-poll-results.html#post20873946

And here is the companion poll for Mordor on which 212 voted:
http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/battlefield-3/1478796-new-eauk-mordor-poll-up-suppression.html

Mordor's 212 voted the opposite of the 77k.

Unfortunately I don't think they archived the killcam poll on Battlelog but it was similar. 40% voted they liked it as is in BF3, with the rest scattered among various levels of remove it/change it, whereas on Mordor, remove would have been the most popular vote.

I always maintained that we needed massive polls to determine if Mordor's opinion was that of the majority. Frankly, it looks like it wasn't, painful to admit though that may be, though killcam and suppression are only 2 polls and not enough to be conclusive. I'm pretty sure if a disabling poll were done, the 80000 on Battlelog would vote the same as Mordor.

Stew

2012-06-10, 12:56 PM

Because it was an existing franchise that previously had prone no?

Which is the exact opposite in which case is exactly why you are hearing majority say they dont want prone.

You say a forum vote here matters little but what some people said on another forum from a completely different game all the sudden matters to you? So when a majority from a completely different forum from a completely different game matters when it supports your opinion. But all the opinions here dont matter cause they dont agree with yours?

This is not battlefield. If you want to play battlefield then you are free to do so.

Like I said I am not debating back and forth with you anymore for you have a lack of reading comprehension and common sense. Just because you have a lot to say does not make a single thing you said worth reading.

you seams to not understand the Prone position isnt a game feature from a specific game its a stand position

and while implemented become a game mechanics wich can be well made or badly implement a poor prone implementation lead to exploits and bad gameplay experience GOOD prone implementations lead to more options more freedoms of moovements for the players !

this have nothing to do with wich games have it or not its like games where you cant jump like golden eye 64 or rainbowsix black arrow etc.. in those shooter game wher u cant jump when you simply enconter a lilttle box on the ground its a insurmountable obstacle and thats silly it makes you feel like an incompetent !

Its almost the same with the NO prone mechanics when their is no prone you see an object that you might get used to hide for a second , just to reload your gun but no you are a prisoner of the mechanics of game that will not let you act as you want it just lead to frustration and lack of freedom of moovement ! wich are natural for us

Stew

2012-06-10, 12:59 PM

Well...over at the Mordor forums, things like Disabling, 3D spotting, killcam etc were constantly defeated in 300-400 person polls. A lot people argued that Mordor was too many PC players, BF2/2142 vets, and other things, to be a valid sample. The same could be said of here, for being a disproportionate sample of PS1 vets.

With that said, they started running polls on Battlelog, that have gotten over 50,000 responses each. There have, to my knowledge, only been two polls that directly go up against a similar poll on Mordor: One for suppression and one for killcam.

The results of the suppression poll on Battlelog were archived here:
http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/battlefield-3/1478561-battlelog-poll-results.html#post20873946

And here is the companion poll for Mordor on which 212 voted:
http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/battlefield-3/1478796-new-eauk-mordor-poll-up-suppression.html

Mordor's 212 voted the opposite of the 77k.

Unfortunately I don't think they archived the killcam poll on Battlelog but it was similar. 40% voted they liked it as is in BF3, with the rest scattered among various levels of remove it/change it, whereas on Mordor, remove would have been the most popular vote.

I always maintained that we needed massive polls to determine if Mordor's opinion was that of the majority. Frankly, it looks like it wasn't, painful to admit though that may be, though killcam and suppression are only 2 polls and not enough to be conclusive. I'm pretty sure if a disabling poll were done, the 80000 on Battlelog would vote the same as Mordor.

good exemple grats ;)

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 01:00 PM

Well I think a pure tactical gameplay model is not what most FPSers desire. Teamwork yes, but tatical on the level of a Ghost recon type thing? Not so much. You want the player to feel he has a chance you know, not that it just matters who saw who first.

Yes campers are going to camp. But the effectiveness of a crouched camper is a bit. A prone camper is much more dangersous. Now prone with camo and foliage. Even experienced players will have a tough time picking out the camper, much less newbies. You have that person crouched and now it is a valid tactic but not an overwhelming one.

The thing I like about prone is that it encourages thinking before the fight even starts, making it much less about who saw who first (I'm not sure I understood what you said correctly so I apologise if you meant something else).

I agree that most players probably find preparing ahead and thinking into tactics as much as I enjoy doing so to be too much of a chore for a leisure activity. However, I would argue that prone makes little difference compared to the TTK. I feel that prone alone gives more enjoyment to the user than it takes from their targets. (the disappointment comes from being killed before they can react, a TTK thing; you see the same issues with shotguns in close-range battles)

Cuross

2012-06-10, 01:01 PM

Well...over at the Mordor forums, things like Disabling, 3D spotting, killcam etc were constantly defeated in 300-400 person polls. A lot people argued that Mordor was too many PC players, BF2/2142 vets, and other things, to be a valid sample. The same could be said of here, for being a disproportionate sample of PS1 vets.

With that said, they started running polls on Battlelog, that have gotten over 50,000 responses each. There have, to my knowledge, only been two polls that directly go up against a similar poll on Mordor: One for suppression and one for killcam...

Lol, do people actually say "statistically speaking" without always cringing as they say it? After I took statistics last year I have almost always attributed statistical analysis with distrust. I just want to point out that no matter who is starting off a sentence with "statistically speaking", you can never take the results wholly serious as there are great many reasons why they can be skewed.

But is no one going to offer me any counterpoints to my argument? I was hoping that I could see some brilliance that didn't revolve around camping or "in this game this and that game that", lol.

fishirboy

2012-06-10, 01:02 PM

this is why we need prone only the first min but it is a good example

Gamespot E3 ArmA3 demonstration - YouTube

mirwalk

2012-06-10, 01:03 PM

I do agree that it would be much harder to remove it than add it in.
However, I feel that the same number of people would leave based on it either being in or not in. Very few people don't play games based on these sorts of reasons.

As I said earlier about new players, OSOK headshots, which are in the game already, have much more of an effect on the 'unfairness' of sniping for new players than prone.

Countering prone players is basically the same as countering camping players that are hidden well that are merely crouched: Watch for muzzle flare, watch the bullet trajectory, try and think about where is the best place for a sniper to be, and communicate well. Preparing in advance for an engagement, and securing advantageous territory, should be rewarded.

I've had lots of good moments with prone, hiding from tanks inside buildings. Also just hugging the ground when being shot at by snipers or people with machine-guns. The tension is great!

Tension is ok, but I feel you can get enough of that will some regular cover, not needing prone.

I may be blowing it out of proportion due to the amount of MAXs and vehicles that are usually around.

Usually I defeat campers and prone people with a few grenades, but with me having to use resources for them. I am less inclined to spam them to clear areas. I do this since I can't really see through a window or doorway and see a prone person.

Or like those moments in BF3 that someone is prone and just laying down a constant stream of fire into a doorway. Makes a very hard target. That may be defused by MAXes

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 01:05 PM

[Data]

I appreciate you spending the time to pull up that information. It's very interesting.

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 01:06 PM

you seams to not understand the Prone position isnt a game deature form a specific game its a stand position

oh my god dude seriously? the only game i want to specifically talk about is planetside 2. You are the one bringing up all this bull from other games. Your the one posting all the "pro" footage from games not called planetside.

You totally ignored my entire point, of you caring what a bunch of people say on a different forum for a different game just because it supports your opinion.

All while disregarding the opinions of the people in the very forum you are in because they're opinion isnt the same as yours. I listen to other people's discussions and thoughts cause they make sense and they listen to other people.

You just hold your hand over your ears and babble on about pointless other games you like that support prone.

This is why i dont want to get into this with you, you make little to no sense. But you yammer on as if you think if you post more people will think the majority want prone.

Stardouser

2012-06-10, 01:07 PM

But is no one going to offer me any counterpoints to my argument? I was hoping that I could see some brilliance that didn't revolve around camping or "in this game this and that game that", lol.

All I can say about that is that even if you don't think of camping as a playstyle, some of the people here do. I say this because I've seen "camping" and "slow gameplay"(which does seem more descriptive of a playstyle than "camping") grouped in the same sentence. I kind of get the feeling people want the game to be a constant back and forth with bases falling quickly and the front line moving back and forth constantly with no long battles. I rather thought that should be left up to skills and strategies than artificial limitations. Because, as I said before, prone is just a proxy argument for camping/slow gameplay. When lack of prone doesn't achieve the desired effect on game pace, what's next? Return of killcam? That's why a line in the sand is being drawn on prone, at least for me, not just on the merits of prone itself.

Not a brilliant argument by any means, but it's all I have for you :(

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 01:08 PM

Cuross

2012-06-10, 01:10 PM

this is why we need prone only the first min but it is a good example

Dot dot dot. Seriously? We need prone because another game has prone? No explanation, no reasons, no discussion or healthy debate? This is why I want people to read and answer my reply a couple pages back. To try to avoid this nonsense...

Cuross

2012-06-10, 01:13 PM

All I can say about that is that even if you don't think of camping as a playstyle, some of the people here do. I say this because I've seen "camping" and "slow gameplay"(which does seem more descriptive of a playstyle than "camping") grouped in the same sentence. I kind of get the feeling people want the game to be a constant back and forth with bases falling quickly and the front line moving back and forth constantly with no long battles. I rather thought that should be left up to skills and strategies than artificial limitations. Because, as I said before, prone is just a proxy argument for camping/slow gameplay. When lack of prone doesn't achieve the desired effect on game pace, what's next? Return of killcam? That's why a line in the sand is being drawn on prone, at least for me, not just on the merits of prone itself.

Not a brilliant argument by any means, but it's all I have for you :(

Oh, I completely agree that camping is a playstyle, one that I have perfected over time in many different games. But I'm trying to discuss prone. The thing I'm trying to get the discussion focused on is getting rid of the proxy argument so that we can get focused on the mechanic that we're trying to discuss. We're never going to get rid of camping whether we can prone or not, so I don't know why people are still arguing about that particular effect. Once again, if everyone is camping, bases don't get captured, you can't pull vehicles, you can't customize your stuff, camping is bad. That's the argument people should have for all things related to camping in my opinion haha.

---Edit:
It was brilliant enough because it stayed mostly focused on the true goal of my argument :) Ty ^^

Stew

2012-06-10, 01:15 PM

All I can say about that is that even if you don't think of camping as a playstyle, some of the people here do. I say this because I've seen "camping" and "slow gameplay"(which does seem more descriptive of a playstyle than "camping") grouped in the same sentence. I kind of get the feeling people want the game to be a constant back and forth with bases falling quickly and the front line moving back and forth constantly with no long battles. I rather thought that should be left up to skills and strategies than artificial limitations. Because, as I said before, prone is just a proxy argument for camping/slow gameplay. When lack of prone doesn't achieve the desired effect on game pace, what's next? Return of killcam? That's why a line in the sand is being drawn on prone, at least for me, not just on the merits of prone itself.

Not a brilliant argument by any means, but it's all I have for you :(

i find whats you said perfectly true people has to understand eachothers instead of trying to insult eachother or ignore !

I agree with this all these post ive seen so far for people agains prone are mostly based on the (( camping arguments )) wich as u said and like ive sasid its a Playstyle and no game mechanics will change this

camping is everywhere in everygames like run and gun should we turn down the speed so run and gunner will be not possible should we remoove all rooftop to not have vetical combat ? should we remoove cloak because some people are going to say cloakers = invisible campers ?

this could go on and on

but your better to explain thing than me lol

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 01:18 PM

Tension is ok, but I feel you can get enough of that will some regular cover, not needing prone.

I may be blowing it out of proportion due to the amount of MAXs and vehicles that are usually around.

Usually I defeat campers and prone people with a few grenades, but with me having to use resources for them. I am less inclined to spam them to clear areas. I do this since I can't really see through a window or doorway and see a prone person.

Or like those moments in BF3 that someone is prone and just laying down a constant stream of fire into a doorway. Makes a very hard target. That may be defused by MAXes

There's a difference between the tensions provided by the binary state of being able to get to real cover or not, and on the other hand, finding yourself under fire from someone at a distance where they're inaccurate, throwing yourself to the ground and crawling towards the real cover.

If it's anything like PS1 then there'll be too many people camping a doorway for all of them to fit on the floor; at least a few will be forced to stand!
I was a dedicated galaxy pilot in PS1 so I don't remember precisely the favoured tactics for breaking sieges, but yes MAXs were a big part of that, as well as the balance between them and HAs as it was a rock-paper-scissors of AV HA beats MAX beats AI HA beats AV HA. Attacking from multiple entrance points and making sure to have plenty of AMSs was the main thing.

Grenades will probably be cheap. That is something that they would be very likely to change if we rabbled about it.

fishirboy

2012-06-10, 01:20 PM

Dot dot dot. Seriously? We need prone because another game has prone? No explanation, no reasons, no discussion or healthy debate? This is why I want people to read and answer my reply a couple pages back. To try to avoid this nonsense...

i have had plenty of reason read all the post man come on haha

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 01:23 PM

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 01:24 PM

Oh, I completely agree that camping is a playstyle, one that I have perfected over time in many different games. But I'm trying to discuss prone. The thing I'm trying to get the discussion focused on is getting rid of the proxy argument so that we can get focused on the mechanic that we're trying to discuss. We're never going to get rid of camping whether we can prone or not, so I don't know why people are still arguing about that particular effect. Once again, if everyone is camping, bases don't get captured, you can't pull vehicles, you can't customize your stuff, camping is bad. That's the argument people should have for all things related to camping in my opinion haha.

---Edit:
It was brilliant enough because it stayed mostly focused on the true goal of my argument :) Ty ^^

Camping is not always bad. If you're playing a recon class properly (which I admit rarely happens) then overwatch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overwatch) is an important part of your role. Likewise if you're trying to defend a base then picking where to make your stand and digging in is the sole correct tactic.

However, I agree that this discussion should be about prone alone, rather than camping, but there don't seem to be many people wishing to argue against prone that can extricate the two things from each other.

Cuross

2012-06-10, 01:26 PM

i have had plenty of reason read all the post man come on haha

Read a good enough amount of your posts just now, still turns out that the argument of cover is the biggest issue you're addressing which I also addressed in mine. Aside from that, you're reasoning for prone is basically just to have the option, which I respect, but I still find the mechanic unnecessary for PS2, again, for the reasons which I stated.

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 01:26 PM

Saying prone negatively effects game flow=/=saying prone encourages camping.

Whether people are moving towards the action, away from the action, or not moving at all. Adding in prone will greatly affect game flow and it is my opinion that it will affect it badly.

Can you please say precisely what you mean? Your current statement doesn't pin down exactly what your issue with prone is.

basti

2012-06-10, 01:27 PM

Stardouser

2012-06-10, 01:27 PM

Saying prone negatively effects game flow=/=saying prone encourages camping.

Whether people are moving towards the action, away from the action, or not moving at all. Adding in prone will greatly affect game flow and it is my opinion that it will affect it badly.

Hmmmm....if we can separate camping out of it I'd be interested to see exactly what you have in mind.

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 01:31 PM

Can you please say precisely what you mean? Your current statement doesn't pin down exactly what your issue with prone is.

When people lie down for any reason it will affect pace of the game for those who use it or not. This is undeniable.

What is in question is whether you think it will be good or bad. Personally I think bad.

I think it will drastically ruin flow.

maradine

2012-06-10, 01:36 PM

This thread went all night. I am impressed.

I agree that adding prone will affect the game flow. I disagree that it will affect it negatively. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I think it will provide a stark contrast for the teams that want to get in there and wreck shit.

Finally I saw a number of other people point these out, but I'd like to collect them and emphasize:

Implementing prone does not have not mean implementing instaprone, diving, and their variants.
The proclivity to camp is othorgonal to the existance of or non-existance of a prone state.
This really is an argument over PS2's FPS identity. What is it? An objective-based FPS? A tactical shooter? A run-and-gun but with bigger maps? What do you want us to be when we're grown up?

fishirboy

2012-06-10, 01:36 PM

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 01:36 PM

Hmmmm....if we can separate camping out of it I'd be interested to see exactly what you have in mind.

I was trying my best to say

ruined flow argument does not equal camping argument.

I mean that whether someone is camping, assaulting, or doing pretty much anything. If lying down is an option game flow will be adversely affected. Of course in my opinion.

Not from camping. from any use of it. but like i said imo.

fishirboy

2012-06-10, 01:39 PM

I was trying my best to say

ruined flow argument does not equal camping argument.

I mean that whether someone is camping, assaulting, or doing pretty much anything. If lying down is an option game flow will be adversely affected. Of course in my opinion.

Not from camping. from any use of it. but like i said imo.

people need to stop thinking that camping needs to go and that any one that camps are noobs, there using there skills as a marksmen from a distance. This is a skill not a noob thing and we should encourage it.

Stew

2012-06-10, 01:39 PM

Lets make a list here. You pro prone folks have 24 hours to give proper arguments against the points made on the list. go!

1. Cloakers and PRone. Imagine a Infiltrator going up to a good spot, proning and cloaking. He sits there cloaked, shoots, and cloaks again. There is literally nothing you can do against him, as he got a extremly low profile.

2. Medics/engis and Prone. They simply chill behind, absolutly save from direct fire, and heal the guys up front.

3. Light assault and Prone: Would completly deny them the use of jumpjets, making the whole thing a rather nasty tradeoff. Mobolity is key for them, making prone absolutly useless for Light assault.

4. Defending and prone: Have fun trying to break a line of people just proning everywhere. Its almost impssible.

5. The zerg and prone: In planetside, heck, no, in EVERY game you have the problem that people are afraid of dying. Instead of Rushing, they just chill and wait around the corner. With prone, they have even less reason to move, as they have a smaller chance of killing a dude if they hop around the corner due to low profile, have more enemys shooting at them as prone allows 2 people behind one another to fire at you, and on top of that even gives a damn good reason not to move at all in the first place. The zerg would be proning EVERYWHERE, making Infantary engagments the most boring expirience ever.

Try to give arguments against these. I know you wont...

we already havefix all those situation in the previous post !

1 : Cloakers should have the cloak ability disable as soon as they go in prone position and not able to activate it while prone problem solve !

2: an ENG repairing stuff is mostlikely a way more in danger and expose in prone position than crouch since the tank serve as a cover while reparing

Medic cant spam a unlimited amount of health to is team mates and i do not get the point of a medic in prone position ad far as i know theyre is no huber charging ability in ps2 yet !

3: ligth assault will use prone whe he need it not to sit and sleep on the ground lol he will use it to take cover for a few second and he will go back to the figth so again i do not understand the point

4: having full people prone position defending a based ? GL , grenade and MAX will take them all out with ease ... problem solve

5: for this one its agains saying thats PRONE = Camping wich is wrong prone is just a standing position not a playstyle camping is a playstyle

Cuross

2012-06-10, 01:41 PM

list

Haha, now that's just being mean. While I was proposing reasons why prone would be unnecessary you go and pull that :P Actually I only have one argument that would be proper and applies to all of them but would make playing the game very boring and more dull than all the zerg laying down. Just get a bunch of MAX suits with grenades or otherwise splash damage.

I actually didn't think about prone engie/medics, though. That's a scary tactic with them just crouched behind their team, it's nightmarish if they were prone.

GreatMazinkaise

2012-06-10, 01:41 PM

This really is an argument over PS2's FPS identity. What is it? An objective-based FPS? A tactical shooter? A run-and-gun but with bigger maps? What do you want us to be when we're grown up?

This is the problem in a nutshell... myself and others want it to share the same identity as its predecessor (!= identical to its predecessor): a strategic, objective-based arcade shooter.

The FNGs want something "tactical", a term that oughta stay on the tabletop in games like Force on Force or Crossfire.

Some view hitting a stationary target in the head as a skill; I argue that hitting a moving target while also moving yourself is a more difficult skill to acquire.

fishirboy

2012-06-10, 01:44 PM

Adding prone to planetside 2 is like throwing mayonnaise on a pizza. If you like the taste of that garbage that's cool. Go to the pizza places you like that serve that garbage. But don't come to the pizza places ive gone to for years and start demanding i have to eat the pizza you like.

were not demanding were asking you to try it. and that mayonnaise may make it way better who knows maybe adding that and tomato sauce at it tastes like harmony of amazing.

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 01:46 PM

people need to stop thinking that camping needs to go and that any one that camps are noobs, there using there skills as a marksmen from a distance. This is a skill not a noob thing and we should encourage it.

I dont know any other ways to say that i am not concerned in the slightest about campers.

I am saying the flow of ALL combat will be adversely affected. ALL combat. not silly campers easily killed.

I am saying the pace of the entire infantry combat will be affected even if not a single person camps.

I have not complained about camping in not one of my posts. In my eyes camping is just defending, if your defending the middle of nowhere to snipe thats your business.

I am commenting solely on all infantry combat pacing.

fishirboy

2012-06-10, 01:48 PM

I dont know any other ways to say that i am not concerned in the slightest about campers.

I am saying the flow of ALL combat will be adversely affected. ALL combat. not silly campers easily killed.

I am saying the pace of the entire infantry combat will be affected even if not a single person camps.

I have not complained about camping in not one of my posts. In my eyes camping is just defending, if your defending the middle of nowhere to snipe thats your business.

I am commenting solely on all infantry combat pacing.

That is a good thing, a sniper is supposed to slow them down, to pin them down so they cant move, have there friends go around and wipe the infantry out, hopefully they have 50 cal to kill them tanks haha

Stew

2012-06-10, 01:49 PM

I dont know any other ways to say that i am not concerned in the slightest about campers.

I am saying the flow of ALL combat will be adversely affected. ALL combat. not silly campers easily killed.

I am saying the pace of the entire infantry combat will be affected even if not a single person camps.

I have not complained about camping in not one of my posts. In my eyes camping is just defending, if your defending the middle of nowhere to snipe thats your business.

I am commenting solely on all infantry combat pacing.

the LOL thing about thats is try to convince me thats u say is true since ive experience 2 games one with 64 players and the other with 256 players with a prone mechanics thats dosent affect the pace and the flow of the game at all !

Show me some exemple describe some situation thats actually take your mind setting and expose thats to us !

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 01:49 PM

1. Cloakers and PRone. Imagine a Infiltrator going up to a good spot, proning and cloaking. He sits there cloaked, shoots, and cloaks again. There is literally nothing you can do against him, as he got a extremly low profile.

This is the same issue as someone doing the same in good cover whilst crouched. the amount sticking voer the top of the cover will be the same as that you could see while prone. Prone gives you more positions you can do this from, but it is no harder to respond to.

You should not be trying to out-shoot a sniper, you should out-manoeuvre them. Once you're standing on top of them, prone or not makes little difference.

2. Medics/engis and Prone. They simply chill behind, absolutly save from direct fire, and heal the guys up front.

Having a lower profile does not make you all-around safer, it's situation-specific. You are a bigger target to aircraft and less mobile so weaker to AoE weaponry. You also can't be helping your whole squad if you're not moving towards them. If they're not moving then you don't need to, but usually in that situation your squad isn't achieving much anyway.

3. Light assault and Prone: Would completly deny them the use of jumpjets, making the whole thing a rather nasty tradeoff. Mobolity is key for them, making prone absolutly useless for Light assault.

I agree, prone is mostly useless for the LA class. (Possibly it could be used when escaping to avoid machine-gun fire, but very rarely)
I also assume that MAXs will be denied it, if it's implemented. That has no bearing on whether or not it would be a good addition for the people who play HA, Medic, Infiltrator or Engineer. Not all aspects of the game have to be available for all classes (such as vehicle use in MAXs).

4. Defending and prone: Have fun trying to break a line of people just proning everywhere. Its almost impssible.

Same issue as with people crouching behind cover. If you don't just duel it out at range then the disadvantages of their lack of mobility will more than balance out their advantages in being a smaller target. Again, AoE weapons, which we have plenty of, are more effective against the low-mobility prone targets. They also cannot hit as many targets if they're stuck in one position.

As a specific tactic: use MAXs and Sunderers as line-breakers, (maybe with some judicious application of lightning artillery / liberators) pop out the HAs at close range to wreck 'em, catch the fleeing ones with LAs.

5. The zerg and prone: In planetside, heck, no, in EVERY game you have the problem that people are afraid of dying. Instead of Rushing, they just chill and wait around the corner. With prone, they have even less reason to move, as they have a smaller chance of killing a dude if they hop around the corner due to low profile, have more enemys shooting at them as prone allows 2 people behind one another to fire at you, and on top of that even gives a damn good reason not to move at all in the first place. The zerg would be proning EVERYWHERE, making Infantary engagments the most boring expirience ever.

Psychology is by far the best counter-argument to having prone. Having it in would mean that there would be a (very minor, I would say) increase in the reluctance of the zerg to actually advance.

However, if this is the case, just pack AoE weaponry or join the fight in a liberator and just wreak merry havoc whenever the enemy show up. I don't think this would be boring and your team may learn what is actually an effective tactic if they see you getting a 10-1 k/d .

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 01:52 PM

That is a good thing, a sniper is supposed to slow them down, to pin them down so they cant move, have there friends go around and wipe the infantry out, hopefully they have 50 cal to kill them tanks haha

You need to carefully read what you make repeat over and over. Prone, by itself, regardless of what people do will imo adversely affect game pacing. If you feel different that's cool, but my argument has NOTHING TO DO WITH CAMPING

When i brought up said sniper, i said go for it. do your thing snipe out there, kill some people, its what your supposed to do. its the fact that a crawling person will slow pacing. REGARDLESS of what people use it for.

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 01:53 PM

When people lie down for any reason it will affect pace of the game for those who use it or not. This is undeniable.

What is in question is whether you think it will be good or bad. Personally I think bad.

I think it will drastically ruin flow.

I deny your assertion that prone affects the pace of the game.

I propose instead that those who use prone would have been stationary anyway, and that it does not affect the prone player's targets' mobility at all (except possibly encouraging them to be more mobile, so as to exploit the prone position's main weakness).

Stardouser

2012-06-10, 01:54 PM

Lets make a list here. You pro prone folks have 24 hours to give proper arguments against the points made on the list. go!

1. Cloakers and PRone. Imagine a Infiltrator going up to a good spot, proning and cloaking. He sits there cloaked, shoots, and cloaks again. There is literally nothing you can do against him, as he got a extremly low profile.
2. Medics/engis and Prone. They simply chill behind, absolutly save from direct fire, and heal the guys up front.
3. Light assault and Prone: Would completly deny them the use of jumpjets, making the whole thing a rather nasty tradeoff. Mobolity is key for them, making prone absolutly useless for Light assault.
4. Defending and prone: Have fun trying to break a line of people just proning everywhere. Its almost impssible.
5. The zerg and prone: In planetside, heck, no, in EVERY game you have the problem that people are afraid of dying. Instead of Rushing, they just chill and wait around the corner. With prone, they have even less reason to move, as they have a smaller chance of killing a dude if they hop around the corner due to low profile, have more enemys shooting at them as prone allows 2 people behind one another to fire at you, and on top of that even gives a damn good reason not to move at all in the first place. The zerg would be proning EVERYWHERE, making Infantary engagments the most boring expirience ever.

Try to give arguments against these. I know you wont...

1. Unrelated. Cloak is cloaked and you can't fire while cloaked, or so we are told. As for nothing you can do about him, you flank him, get behind him, call in a vehicle, or even countersnipe him yourself. Are you demanding the ability to outduel snipers with your assault rifle in a toe to toe battle(so to speak, since this would be at range) by forcing them to stand up to be sprayed?
2. This never seemed to work that way in any other game that has prone. Requires testing, I'll grant you that on this one.
3. You are expecting an argument that choosing to use prone will weaken a light assault (thus, a tradeoff) to be accepted as an argument not to have prone?
4. If this is indoors, it will hurt their own team due to collision. And I'm sure the devs can come up with a solution to it(ie, allowing you to push by friendlies). If this is outdoors, you flank, hit them with tank shells, etc. People lined up make excellent targets for explosive shells.
5. A. Defenders: Chances are, if you are proning waiting for someone to come around the corner, you are a defender inside a base. Either way, if prone doesn't exist, crouch becomes the maximum accuracy position, but with prone, the defender has to sacrifice mobility for accuracy. Sounds like an argument FOR prone, to me. Because if the guy waiting around the corner can have maximum accuracy without having prone, he's going to be a lot more mobile when he needs to be than if he was forced to prone for max accuracy.
B. Attackers: If you are concerned about attackers not rushing, you need to be looking at the effect of low TTK and long runbacks from the Galaxy/nerfed squad spawning first.

MadPenguin

2012-06-10, 01:55 PM

It will be enough of a balanced to simply do not allow HA to use the MMgun while prone he will have a pistol and a LMG to use while prone Fair enough for me !

Well that's an improvement on not allowing HA to go prone at all, but i still disagree

Stew

2012-06-10, 01:56 PM

You need to carefully read what you make repeat over and over. Prone, by itself, regardless of what people do will imo adversely affect game pacing. If you feel different that's cool, but my argument has NOTHING TO DO WITH CAMPING

When i brought up said sniper, i said go for it. do your thing snipe out there, kill some people, its what your supposed to do. its the fact that a crawling person will slow pacing. REGARDLESS of what people use it for.

Ok dude look at this a 256 player game with objective like planetside 2 with prone tell me where in this you see any sort of slow down in the flow or in the pace due to the prone mechanics ?

»»»»»»»»»»»»»» http://youtu.be/YCDuUIGsf34?t=2m8s ««««««««««««««

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 01:56 PM

the LOL thing about thats is try to convince me thats u say is true since ive experience 2 games one with 64 players and the other with 256 players with a prone mechanics thats dosent affect the pace and the flow of the game at all !

Show me some exemple describe some situation thats actually take your mind setting and expose thats to us !

I have debated with you for long enough, you listen to nothing i say. I have made point after point with you the past hours, and it all just goes right over your head. You do not care what i say, cause it doesnt support your opinion. But please, tell me what people on the battlefield forum think about prone again, that was so valid. after all it supports your opinion.

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 01:58 PM

I deny your assertion that prone affects the pace of the game.

I propose instead that those who use prone would have been stationary anyway, and that it does not affect the prone player's targets' mobility at all (except possibly encouraging them to be more mobile, so as to exploit the prone position's main weakness).

That is a respectable thought but i do not agree. more power to you regardless.

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 01:58 PM

This thread went all night. I am impressed.
It's actually day-time where I am, and I have today free, so, speaking for myself, at least, it doesn't require as much dedication as it may seem

Cuross

2012-06-10, 01:58 PM

Deleted cuz I decided I didn't want to go there.

Again, this is about Planetside 2!

Stardouser

2012-06-10, 01:59 PM

I have debated with you for long enough, you listen to nothing i say. I have made point after point with you the past hours, and it all just goes right over your head. You do not care what i say, cause it doesnt support your opinion. But please, tell me what people on the battlefield forum think about prone again, that was so valid. after all it supports your opinion.

This is all I can find on the EA UK BF3 forum:
http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/battlefield-3/1279916-prone-poll.html

Remember, this forum was not the only BF3 forum. It's entirely possible someone could find a different prone poll over at the US forum or who knows where.

I haven't read through it btw, only glanced at the poll.

maradine

2012-06-10, 02:03 PM

1. Cloakers and PRone. <snip>

2. Medics/engis and Prone. <snip>

3. Light assault and Prone: <snip>

4. Defending and prone: <snip>

5. The zerg and prone: <snip>

Missed this in the chaff. Since you've been kind enough to set the rules, you have 24 hours. :)

Bullet trail. Mandatory cooldown of cloaking device after shot. Disrupted cloak when in physical contact with objects (the ground, in this case). Pick one, pick all. Supplemental, I fail to see how this is more of a problem than a crouching cloaker on a ridge. Hull down in defilade probably presents a similar target to a prone without.
I don't follow the assertion of "absolute safety", and am treating it as hyperbole in this context. They take up volume and they're close to the thing that's taking fire. They are probably taking splash damage to boot if they're close enough to be healing. If they're around a corner, then, well, they were already around a corner, weren't they.
Yes. If a light assault is prone, they can't fire their jets*. It would be exactly that - a tradeoff. If they're spending a lot of time prone, they're not using their class perk. This isn't a reason to deny them the option.
Grenade. Max Crash. Teamwork. Pick one, pick all. I hear we're fond of all of those around here.
They've doubled their fire density. They've also doubled their target density. A good player, an aggressive player, now has the chance to wipe out twice as many utterly stationary people with the same well-chucked explosive.

Have fun.

*Actually, I'd lobby for them to be able to fire their jets anyway, for the hilarious outcome of such an action.

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 02:06 PM

on battlefield forums people where MAD at dice to not have implement prone in BFBC lol

Once again you have no clue what i said. But yammer on assuming you did. this aint battlefield, this aint cod, this isnt mag.

this is planetside

But please ignore my opinions more and yammer on about the other games not planetside you love so much.
------------
ha my fault i thought Stardouser's reply was stew's. ya i was just making a point again to stew, im all for valid discussion. but that guy just pushes my buttons. sorry stardouser. none of the hate above was directed at you. But like i said what a different forum says for a different game matters not.

Stew

2012-06-10, 02:09 PM

Actually, the 256 player game I can say that prone mechanics can effect the pace of the game. In that game, you've got objectives to take, and while I have no problem with camping, there is a time and place for everything. Some people know it, and some people don't. The thing about prone in MAG is that you're rushing an objective and all of a sudden half your squad drops to prone because they know that enemies will be coming out from point x, or they see a sniper on the ridge of point y, or because it's just a really good position to shoot them in point z. That leaves the other half of your squad charging madly into the objective, half as powerful as when they went in. Even just for a couple seconds you drop to prone, you've given up valuable time that could have been spent capturing a critical point and may have slowed your advance or sacrificed the effort altogether. The idea that going prone can have a negative effect on pacing is because when people find a place that they feel comfortable and safe, they're most likely going to break off from what they're doing to go take the most full advantage of that area, even if for only a moment. However, I can not think of any arguments for gameplay that would reason the mechanic to provide more positive pacing to battle. I can only see that prone would either be no change or negative pacing.

----Edit:
And not to mention that in MAG you can drop to the ground as an instant reaction to save your life. This also affects the pacing as say you're squad is charging a base and you all of a sudden are being shot at with no cover but forward and half your squad drops, ultimately dying in the process where the rest of your squad has a higher chance of making that rush to the objective.

dude iam a mag beast ive been always MVP of 256 players and also have a 3.5 kdr with a bazzillions of objective planted AA destroy ribbon and so on

and i can say thats whats you just say is wrong in MAG been prone is mostly been dead lol ;)

the dropsho in mag will fail 98 % of the time

the pace of the game isnt affected by the prone mechanics and the flow and thats was the prime arguments

now it come to another point the DROP shot but drop shot isnt a good tactics in MAG ive played 2000 + hours in MAG lol

Khrusky

2012-06-10, 02:09 PM

Actually, the 256 player game I can say that prone mechanics can effect the pace of the game. In that game, you've got objectives to take, and while I have no problem with camping, there is a time and place for everything. Some people know it, and some people don't. The thing about prone in MAG is that you're rushing an objective and all of a sudden half your squad drops to prone because they know that enemies will be coming out from point x, or they see a sniper on the ridge of point y, or because it's just a really good position to shoot them in point z. That leaves the other half of your squad charging madly into the objective, half as powerful as when they went in. Even just for a couple seconds you drop to prone, you've given up valuable time that could have been spent capturing a critical point and may have slowed your advance or sacrificed the effort altogether. The idea that going prone can have a negative effect on pacing is because when people find a place that they feel comfortable and safe, they're most likely going to break off from what they're doing to go take the most full advantage of that area, even if for only a moment. However, I can not think of any arguments for gameplay that would reason the mechanic to provide more positive pacing to battle. I can only see that prone would either be no change or negative pacing.

I believe that people do this whether or not prone is in the game. Instead of going prone, they will just clump up against cover that is in a safe position before you get to the objective. Prone would make no difference in this situation.

Also you described them going prone for a tactical advantage, which surely is a good thing? Taking an objective before being massacred and having the enemy simply re-take it over your dead body achieves little, so I would think that dealing with enemies first, safely, is the correct way to go.

I agree that prone won't make the game any faster, but I don't think that's really a universally good thing. Faster killing (i.e. low TTK) is an example where people here generally seem to dislike high-speed gameplay. So, don't say positive pacing when you mean faster pacing.

The advantage of prone, however, is not in pacing, it's in tactical depth. It gives you an additional trade off that you can make situationally. Whether or not tactical depth is a good thing is debatable, as it can make it less fun for people who want to play casually or who are new to the game, but prone gives a definite improvement to the enjoyment of the game to those who do want tactical depth.

Immigrant

2012-06-10, 02:11 PM

Everyone wait!

Let me join the fun guys: http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa143/cpanthersfan/Orcish%20Smileys/deadhorse.gif

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 02:15 PM

dude iam a mag beast ive been always MVP of 256 players and also have a 3.5 kdr with a bazzillions of objective planted AA destroy ribbon and so on

and i can say thats whats you just say is wrong in MAG been prone is mostly been dead lol ;)

the dropsho in mag will fail 98 % of the time

the pace of the game isnt affected by the prone mechanics and the flow and thats was the prime arguments

now it come to another point the DROP shot but drop shot isnt a good tactics in MAG ive played 2000 + hours in MAG lol

I am glad you are so pro at mag happy birthday you win at mag. Why does this make your point anything but your opinion on how you saw the battlefield from your eyes?

So his experience with the same game is wrong cause you were so good at it huh? Trying to talk to you is harder than talking to a child.

Stew

2012-06-10, 02:22 PM

I am glad you are so pro at mag happy birthday you win at mag. Why does this make your point anything but your opinion on how you saw the battlefield from your eyes?

So his experience with the same game is wrong cause you were so good at it huh? Trying to talk to you is harder than talking to a child.

try to avoid the personal stuff and insult please stay on topic

So as a reminder your very concern was about the pace

as a exemple ive send you a video of MAG domination and the pace and the flow is pretty solid and can you see the prone position afecting the flow ? if yes i would like to see when why and how !

Also i would have to say this (( not related to prone but related to the flow and pace arguments ))

Ive seen some other people here agains the prone saying it will affect the pace as well

But in another tread the same people was deeply agains a quick revive and even more about a instant revive mechanics wich if in MAg this mechanics of instant revive wasnt their the pace and flow could be dramatically reduce and remember thats in MAg almost everybody custumise their caracter with a medic and revive kit !

so whats you think about instant revive and also awnser my frist question if possible

mynameismud

2012-06-10, 02:25 PM

as it can make it less fun for people who want to play casually or who are new to the game

So if i dont like prone the way you like prone im a casual gamer now huh?

So i have been "casually" playing games since i was 3?

TheInferno

2012-06-10, 02:25 PM

Instant revive has nothing to do with prone. The issue a lot of people had with that (if I remember right) was that it basically removed the risk of the medic getting shot. Run out, tap the guy, run back to cover. That was the complaint people had.

Also, we know you've pointed out a game where prone works multiple times. We've even said we've seen it. However, does something working in one game make it necessary in another game?

Also, we really need :deadhorse: because I think it's been beaten to death. Can we agree to disagree at this point? Please?

basti

2012-06-10, 02:26 PM

easy way to fix it is by BALENCE

No cloak when in prone,

use a fliping grenade, it takes long efnofe for him to revive just kill him, BF3 does not have that problem

Not really they can stand up or never use it its an option to have a jet pack

Yous your flipping grenade and yes that is the whole point of prone hared to kill go figure why we want it, go around, use a meck. or even better your mind!

Yes and no, people still hide behind corners rather if its on the ground or crouching, in BF3 most people don't just sit there on there stomachs most are smart and go around and attack from another entrance, the guy can only guard 1 door and guess what! grenade!

You take BF3 here? Really? MY god, dude, get a clue.

BF3 does not support 2000 Players per map. You cant compare what 32 people (16vs16) do with what 666vs666vs666 do. ITs two completly different worlds.