Air Born Dog Fights in PS2

[Cosmical]

I dont know about you, but as enthusiastic as i get for the idea of air combat, no game seems to deliver. Or as far as the tense amazing combat you see in films goes, its very rarely recreated in video games, particularly in competative multiplayer.

I know they can be tense, i know there are situations where a maneuver or a fluke saves you and you walk away victorious and excited. But generally dog fights in games consist of ...

A PERSON BEHIND YOU.
A SHARP TURN AND HOPE THEY DONT FOLLOW.
GET BEHIND THEM.
AND HOPE THEY DONT DO THE SAME BEFORE YOU KILL THEM.

There has to be better mechanics than this, and beyond just throtteling up and down to get a better turn circle. I know this is just the nature of the beast, but i still feel there should be something better by now.

The suggestion of the VS Scythe boosting in 360 degrees is a perfect alteration to the system.

I suggest that a pilot can choose to use their AFTERBURN on a frontal blast/ air break, allowing you to instantly stop and/or greatly reduce speed allowing the person behind you to fly by unable to finish their kill. The balancing side will be if you used your afterburn to airbreak, you now cant use it to boost away and escape until i recharges. Or maybe have it so it doesnt recharge to maximum capacity until you return to base to restock.

Just an idea, please post your ideas or thoughts on aerial combat improvements. And keep in mind that when youve got 8 hostile planes on your tail, no amount of "CREATIVE FLYING" will save you.

[MonsterBone]

And they banned my posts.....

[Brusi]

With real physics, i think a lot of current real-life dogfighting manuvers will actually be a possibility, which i personally think is awesome.

The other major thing that should be noted is that this is an MMO. Most likely team-based dogfighting tactics will be the most successful. I spose you kinda touched on that though :)

I think that there is plenty of room for tactical advantages using the mod system that they are implementing. Perhaps things like additional rear armor or ammo (rounds/missiles) that shorts radar on enemy fighters.

[Landtank]

The idea of purposefully applying the brakes to make an enemy overshoot and be in a bad position is a classic aerial maneuver, one that I will be using A LOT if at all possible.

I'm hoping with the huge amount of enemies that air combat will be incredibly intense, you have to worry about the fighter behind you, the AA missles from infantry, flak from MAX suits, and intense fire from tanks and other vehicles. The large amount of obstacles and rocks and structures also allows for some fun flying, allowing you to hopefully gain the advantage or at least escape your enemies.

The scythe's 360 degree boosting will be an interesting dynamic to fight against, but the Reaver is SUPERIOR IN EVERY WAY!!!!!! FREEDOM!!!!

[Envenom]

next....

[SKYeXile]

I'd like to see them take it even further by implementing a lateral engine-kill. It would work like in space - if you kill your engines, you will keep moving in a straight line on whatever vector you had, allowing you to pitch, yaw and roll while keeping the same direction. You could simulate something like that easily with the kind of flight mechanics they already have.

yea i was under the impression thats how you could operate the scythe, turn it but still keep going the previous heading at full speed...for epics straifing runs. but thats possibly unlikely.

I do hope this game comes down to more than the standard planetside 1v1:

flight ceiling ---> Turret

though, 1v1 engagements like that are teh lame. multiple people you had to try to outmaneuver...but alot fo the time they would all breakout into turrets. which means you breakout into a turret...run(gl with that)...or begin spiralling.

[Razicator]

I know they can be tense, i know there are situations where a maneuver or a fluke saves you and you walk away victorious and excited. But generally dog fights in games consist of ...

A PERSON BEHIND YOU.
A SHARP TURN AND HOPE THEY DONT FOLLOW.
GET BEHIND THEM.
AND HOPE THEY DONT DO THE SAME BEFORE YOU KILL THEM..


The reason is that nowadays, you have a bunch of modern air combat, which consists of exactly what you are talking about. If you wanted dog fighting that lasts for more than 15 seconds, then you have to play WW1 or WW2 flight games.

It's kinda like sword fighting in hollywood. In real life, sword duels would last at most 15 seconds. None of this "one minute of parry parry lunge parry parry," but it was turned into that partly because to make the audience more drawn to the action, and partly because hollywood swordfighting is based upon rapier fencing, which does last longer than normal sword fighting in war.

Same with air battles in hollywood. You see jets flying around and "dueling" with missiles and machine guns for a while, when really in today's world of supersonic missiles, you would destroy enemy jets beyond visual range in the span of minutes. No fun to play in a game. And the reason why movies seem tense is because of the music, setting, and of course edited cuts of action scenes to increase your adrenaline. BF3 tries to recreate this but of course falls flat.

[RedKnights]

I think the new flight mechanics are going to make 'turreting' a quite bad idea, I don't see that becoming a problem again.

I love cosmical's idea of being able to use your afterburner charge as a sort of air-brake to make your enemies overshoot, I think that would be a fun little mechanic, and not overused because wasting afterburner is critical.

And a 360 boost for the scythe... I can't even thing of a good way to input that sort of control XD

That said, have we even confirmed the afterburner mechanic's limiting/recharge method yet?

[Cosmical]

And the reason why movies seem tense is because of the music, setting, and of course edited cuts of action scenes to increase your adrenaline. BF3 tries to recreate this but of course falls flat.

Haha, you mean movies arnt real!!!?

All im asking is for more combat choices in mid air. Yes i know that with the customisation, its almost like your decisions are made prior to taking off. And that once youre in the air there will be enough to think about with targeting and flying. BUT!! if you think about the veriaty of decisions made on the ground, grenade, melee, stealth, rocket, sprint, headshot, spray and pray, hip fire. All which require you assessing and deciding the correct action to use.

I still think air combat is pretty limited to. I AM LOCKED ON TO - I AM BEING CHASED. I HAVE LOCKED ON - I AM CHASING.

I grew up playing the Star Fleet Academy games, and from moment to moment youre in control of a ship and there are 100 different things you can do. Diverting power to shield locations, beaming over troops, tractor beams, repair priorities, all during a fast paced flight sim.

Star Fox even had unique ideas, with a planes stamina bar being used to activate a quick loop or barrel roll.

I always feel in competative multiplayer, if you arnt giving me the tools to best about three people simultaneously through skill and correct choices, then youre being limited by design. Flying away to turn around to get another charging run isnt super compelling and you know it.

[Sledgecrushr]

Imho to make a better dogfight soe needs to limit how effective lock on missiles work. No lock on then you have to get closer and use your cannons.

[Kirotan]

If you can do loops, barrel rolls, and can use the boost to get through, I think air to air will be fine.

p.s. wait. Got it. Give aircraft the ability to go prone. This will add the kind of excitement you are looking for in dogfighting.

[Turdicus]

+1 for starfox

[Runlikethewind]

p.s. wait. Got it. Give aircraft the ability to go prone. This will add the kind of excitement you are looking for in dogfighting.

YES!!!! OMG this is exactly what we need......

[Koenside]

Same with air battles in hollywood. You see jets flying around and "dueling" with missiles and machine guns for a while, when really in today's world of supersonic missiles, you would destroy enemy jets beyond visual range in the span of minutes. No fun to play in a game. And the reason why movies seem tense is because of the music, setting, and of course edited cuts of action scenes to increase your adrenaline. BF3 tries to recreate this but of course falls flat.

This is what the Americans thought going into Vietnam, and which is why they immediately re-opened the school for dogfighting tactics and installed machine guns on all fighter jets shortly after the start of the war.

Lock on is great at long range but as long as the enemy can get in close range a mounted machine gun will be more effective.

[SKYeXile]

+1 for starfox

Press B to do a barrel roll.

[Synapse]

How air combat rolls out depends entirely on guided missiles, their abilities and their proliferation.

I'm already very excited about this as well.

Probably things will be super simple though, most players won't be dedicated pilots.

[SztEltviz]

Good old Chuck Yeager's Air Combat on DOS :D

[Bobby Shaftoe]

Good old Chuck Yeager's Air Combat on DOS :D

Heroes of the 357th!

[ccrumley]

Also keep in mind that each faction specific aircraft will have their own inherent attributes. If you skip ahead to about 51:40 in the live streaming video with Higby and TB, Matt talks about how each will handle differently. The Reaver I believe will be heavier armored and Im hoping will dive faster because of that. The mosquito will accelerate faster and the Scythe will be WAY more maneuverable considering it can move in all 3 axis of direction in an equal manner. Ive been playing combat flight sims for over a decade and the ones I have spent the most time with by far are WW2 sims. You have to understand the strengths and weaknesses of your plane and your opponents to be successful, in WW2 sims especially, because every aircraft handles differently. If Im in a P-47, which is a heavy airplane that can take alot of punishment, Im not going to try to outturn a Bf-109. Im going to get an altittude advantage, dive down on him, fire at him without making any sudden quick maneuvers, and then climb back up. Now granted this flight model wont be anywhere near as detailed, Im hoping that at least part of these kinds of physics will be represented in the game. Learn how to properly use your aircraft against specific opponents and you will become an ace.

[kaffis]

People aren't used to seeing good dogfights in multiplayer air combat games for three reasons:

1) They're playing with aircraft that are too powerful -- a lot of the dynamics of the classic dogfight and furball are dictated by managing altitude and stalling characteristics, which is kind of lost when you're in an F-15 that has enough thrust to outright overcome gravity and accelerate directly upwards indefinitely.

2) People are shitty pilots.

3) Teamwork isn't used between wingmen. A lot of dogfighting maneuvers was not about shaking the pilot on your tail, but rather about forcing him to choose between being lead into your wingman's sights or breaking off pursuit himself.


As such, games that yield really good dogfights tend to be very niche games.. primarily because of 1 and 2. WWII and especially WWI planes just aren't flashy to the video gaming target audience, and the hard-core simmers have primarily died out.

Everybody else expects their modern jet combat games to be Top Gun exciting -- which is a credit to the Navy recruitment minds behind Top Gun, I suppose, but just isn't really feasible given the speeds and reaction times involved to make those kind of exciting cannon fights in modern planes.

[kaffis]

Good old Chuck Yeager's Air Combat on DOS :D
I preferred Knights of the Sky. ;)

[Kilmoran]

I'll be honest. Since missles and lock on tech has become part of piloting, dog fights just aren't the same. What you are describing, OP, hasn't really happened since about world war II in any significant amount of battles. Most of the time, a real modern air to air scenario ends miles from contact. Dog fights is about bullets glancing and trying to get a good bead, and possibly trying to affect certain systems. It's about a damaged wing and knowing your planes limits with trying to learn or abuse the limits of the enemies. It's a lot more personal... but it also takes a lot longer.

What you ask for, just because of TTK, may not really occur.

[Kilmoran]

People aren't used to seeing good dogfights in multiplayer air combat games for three reasons:

1) They're playing with aircraft that are too powerful -- a lot of the dynamics of the classic dogfight and furball are dictated by managing altitude and stalling characteristics, which is kind of lost when you're in an F-15 that has enough thrust to outright overcome gravity and accelerate directly upwards indefinitely.

2) People are shitty pilots.

3) Teamwork isn't used between wingmen. A lot of dogfighting maneuvers was not about shaking the pilot on your tail, but rather about forcing him to choose between being lead into your wingman's sights or breaking off pursuit himself.


As such, games that yield really good dogfights tend to be very niche games.. primarily because of 1 and 2. WWII and especially WWI planes just aren't flashy to the video gaming target audience, and the hard-core simmers have primarily died out.

Everybody else expects their modern jet combat games to be Top Gun exciting -- which is a credit to the Navy recruitment minds behind Top Gun, I suppose, but just isn't really feasible given the speeds and reaction times involved to make those kind of exciting cannon fights in modern planes.


Having played an "MMO" ....Combat Flight Game... (Air Warrior series) I agree whole heartedly.

[kadrin]

Good old Chuck Yeager's Air Combat on DOS :D

I preferred Knights of the Sky. ;)

My fellow old school pilots. :D

I played the crap out of Aces of the Pacific, Aces over Europe and Red Baron.

[Cosmical]

A lot of dogfighting maneuvers was not about shaking the pilot on your tail, but rather about forcing him to choose between being lead into your wingman's sights or breaking off pursuit himself.


Best reply so far. Need more decent insight and ideas, not nay saying.

I still think that air combat is lame. Yes flying through canyons to evade persuers only to have them hit the walls because youre more familiar with the terrain, and because youre a better pilot is fun and compelling.

But air combat will still consist of...

MISSILE LOCK
WIGGLE ABOUT TRYING TO AVOID MISSILE LOCK
FIRE FLARES

- REPEAT

teamplay and huge numbers of aircraft will change the face of things ofcourse. And if youre telling me that customisation will go as far as to let you have a light weight nimble aircraft with low armour, that allows you to turn on a dime and throttle away, maybe sacrificing a secondary weapon like missiles. That will be a huge step to me beleiving that air combat will be unique and amazing, with players really being able to shine in their stunt planes.

I still think there could be mechanics to improve it. About all planetside 1 thought of was the Wasp and shields over 7 years.

Even something as simple as being able to convert afterburn into shields for a few seconds would be amazing. Allowing you to pop it on a bombing run to absorb a hit, or sacrificing your escape plan to survive an incoming missile.

[Xeb]

I doubt we'll see much more classic "BF1942" dogfighting in PS2 as we did in PS1... the simple fact is that aircraft in planetside are more like helicopters, you can do all the loops and rolls as you like but all the other guy needs to do is slow down and focus on shooting you while your not shooting him.

[Sledgecrushr]

I really hope there is a sidegrade that reduces or even totally gets rid of the heat signature of your fighter. I want some proper dogfights, not just a lock on and then a auto kill.

[Unforgiven]

i think if you want better dogfights, sadly everyone else is gonna have to become better pilots, AND USE A WINGMAN! the military determined that teh effectiveness of a fighter jet increases by about 80% with the proper use of a wingman. (which means he must also know how to fly)

[kaffis]

I doubt we'll see much more classic "BF1942" dogfighting in PS2 as we did in PS1... the simple fact is that aircraft in planetside are more like helicopters, you can do all the loops and rolls as you like but all the other guy needs to do is slow down and focus on shooting you while your not shooting him.
This is why the air game in PS2 doesn't seem likely to grab me. It had a chance when they were talking about how they're using much better physics models, but...

From what we've seen, the stall speed seems too low for me to really get interested. If there even *is* a stall speed. Either way, it gives the impression of that helicopter performance you speak of, which doesn't really equate to compelling air combat for me.

Others are welcome to enjoy it, and I have no doubt that having the skies open as a vector of attack will be good for the game overall, but it's not going to be for me.

Unless maybe I can bring myself to fly a Liberator again. We'll see what the weapon profiles available are like; if they can support a low altitude, moderate speed engagement vector well, I may go in for some of that.

[Warborn]

I think the new flight mechanics are going to make 'turreting' a quite bad idea, I don't see that becoming a problem again.

Things die so quickly and fighters are so fast that it might be the case that it will be a bad idea. I don't think fighters will be able to tank numerous rocket hits like reavers could in Planetside 1. However, that doesn't mean there'll be dogfighting. Look at the very first video TB did. He was in a skeeter, flying around, and took some hits from behind. So, he came to a dead stop, turned around, and shot down the scythe that was shooting him from the rear.

Fact is, helicopters don't dog fight. Planetside aircraft are all helicopters. They're very fast helicopters, but when you have the ability to come to a dead stop and rotate in the air, then dogfighting goes out the window. Air combat will probably be essentially unchanged from PS2. As nice as it'd be for the aircraft to behave like jets with maybe a toggle-able, slow helicopter mode, that doesn't seem like what they have in mind, so instead you'll get Battlefield-style helicopter duels.

[Maarvy]

Is'nt getting behind someone and not letting them get behind you what a dofight is ? .... well if you describe one whilst having the IQ equal to a turnip .

So long as the aircraft has full range of movement you can pull whatever manouvers you want , why the need for "abilitys" .

If you want flaps , stall's etc etc go play Aces High .

[SoNaR]

OP, You obviously never flew the aircraft in 2142, the gunships in that game were unlike anything else and a couple of good pilots could have some amazing dogfights with them.

[stonelizard]

but I don't think dogs fight in the air