The potential problem with the cert system

[Dreamcast]

I believe higby said that the certs will be chosen and they will require sacrifice

http://www.planetside-universe.com/media/album/mp52rz6sp6/20120601_4fc90200d9d92.jpg

Apperantly you pick one cert per weapon and their trade offs, I might be wrong.



Well seeing the footage of the cert and this screenshot by neurotoxin
http://www.planetside-universe.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=561&d=1338963991


I wonder if it will work well and if is too simple.


What I mean by this is if you look at the 2nd photo, you will see that u have little boxes to unlock......so for example u have 5 reload speed cert...

So lets say if I have 2 reload boxes unlocked because I don't want to reload that fast....Will I still get the same sacrifice have I had 5 boxes unlocked.....and if so, isn't that not fair?


What I have in mind is creating a more complex system where you can select the number of boxes to use....then based on those numbers have sacrifices...

So another example will be....I like 2 boxes accuracy because I don't need much better accuracy and don't want to lose much damage......so 2 boxes for me will better than picking 5 boxes, where my damage will suck.

So I guess people could "unlock" all boxes, but that shouldn't mean I have to use them all since I could lose a lot of damage.



I feel the current system, is just too simple in is trade offs if it doesn't take to account the boxes, on has unlocked.


The reason I think this is the case is because SOE wants to see progression so people will have incentive to play and unlock things......I mean having to sacrifice, every time you get a cert, will offend a lot of people.



Im not exactly sure how the cert system works so tell me if Im wrong.

[SKYeXile]

yea i got no idea if you can use a cert that not fully maxed or what. alittle confused there myself too.

[EVILoHOMER]

Have to wait and see how it plays, cannot judge it until we have hands on in beta.

[Dreamcast]

yea i got no idea if you can use a cert that not fully maxed or what. alittle confused there myself too.

From what I understand....is this...and I might be wrong so IDK.


Lets say I have 5 boxes for accuracy.

I unlock 1 cert box, that means I can use that cert......That will give +1 in accuracy and -1 in damage

If I unlock 5 of the boxes for accuracy...then it will be +5 in accuracy and -1 damage..


Im putting very simply but thats the way I understand it now


What I want is

I unlock 1 cert....+1 accuracy and -1 in damage

In unlock 5 boxes.....+5 accuracy and -5 in damage.



You see what I mean?.


Maybe the cert system I wan't is the one that is in the game so who knows lol:D

[Greeniegriz]

If you watch the TB stream from a week ago with Higby you see that those little boxes are for "leveling" the cert.

Example: cert for reload speed has 5 little boxes. First box costs 1 cert point. Second costs 2 and so on until you complete the certification.

I imagine you cant use the cert until its fully trained/leveled.

Cheers,

GG

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Gogita]

I wonder how they're exactly going to prevent higher level players from having a too big advantage over lower level players. Right now I mostly see certs such as "increase zoom" or "increase clip", but I haven't seen anything yet that shows that you have to give up something in order to gain.

Higby early on stated that they want to balance things. This is if someone wants to have for example a larger clip it would have to have a longer reload time or something like that. But what I see so far is that people can have a larger clip, but with no drawbacks to it.

Maybe I missed some information somewhere, but this is worrying me a bit.

[Dreamcast]

If you watch the TB stream from a week ago with Higby you see that those little boxes are for "leveling" the cert.

Example: cert for reload speed has 5 little boxes. First box costs 1 cert point. Second costs 2 and so on until you complete the certification.

I imagine you cant use the cert until its fully trained/leveled.

Cheers,

GG

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


Hmmmm.....I have heard people around the forums claim higby saying that their is gonna be certs that take like 100 hours or like 6 months.


Are you saying that those certs are not gonna be usable for 100 hours or 6 months?.........I see it more like leveling, where you unlock it in the first cert but is not as is full potential....I could be wrong how ever

[Dreamcast]

I wonder how they're exactly going to prevent higher level players from having a too big advantage over lower level players. Right now I mostly see certs such as "increase zoom" or "increase clip", but I haven't seen anything yet that shows that you have to give up something in order to gain.

Higby early on stated that they want to balance things. This is if someone wants to have for example a larger clip it would have to have a longer reload time or something like that. But what I see so far is that people can have a larger clip, but with no drawbacks to it.

Maybe I missed some information somewhere, but this is worrying me a bit.

yeah I thought it was gonna be like everytime you get more damage...you lose equally as much accuracy.

For larger clip, it should be larger reload time......so depending on how big u wanna make u clip then an equal sacrifice should take place in reloading.

Maybe we are wrong tho, I really want this cleared up.

[Greeniegriz]

Hmmmm.....I have heard people around the forums claim higby saying that their is gonna be certs that take like 100 hours or like 6 months.


Are you saying that those certs are not gonna be usable for 100 hours or 6 months?.........I see it more like leveling, where you unlock it in the first cert but is not as is full potential....I could be wrong how ever

Not really sure. Hopefully they'll go into it in more detail during e3.

The way you explained it makes more sense. Hehe

Cheers,

GG

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[SKYeXile]

are we sure these certs have a downside to them? i understand each gun is like a sidegrade...i dont understand why mods or certs slotted would need to be a sidegrade?

[ThermalReaper]

As usual we probably have no idea what is true about this. So I suggest we keep speculating and eventually(soon) one of the developers will clear it up.
My speculation: ...No idea.

[CutterJohn]

Bigger issue, imo, is am I going to have to unlock something like NV for each turret? Really? A little bolt on gizmo needs to be unlocked multiple times?

Thats not progression, thats pure, 100% timesink.

[SKYeXile]

Bigger issue, imo, is am I going to have to unlock something like NV for each turret? Really? A little bolt on gizmo needs to be unlocked multiple times?

Thats not progression, thats pure, 100% timesink.

most of those things look to be a small cert point cost, and there should be a surpluss of them.

also atleast like unlike other games, you don't have to roll with a shitty equipped gun until you get enough kills with it to get the cool stuff on it, you can just pimp it out from the start.

[Attackmack]

If you had to unlock all "boxes" of an unlock before being able to use it then they would have just made one box with a total cost of certpoints.

As is now, you will certainly be able to use/benefit from an unlock as soon as you unlock its first box.

Also, as of now they said there is no way to revert or reset your unlocks, but there is also no upper limit to the ammount of points you can accumulate so eventually you will in theory be able to unlock every single cert in the game.


Dunno how i feel about this system though. I fear there will be many certs that feel mandatory and a huge ammount of points will have to be spent on certain certs that you just "must have" in order to not fall behind.
And i do like it when one has to think a little before spending points, sacrificing maybe the use of vehics to enchance your might as an infantry.

Anyway, bring the beta and we will see.

[diLLa]

Bigger issue, imo, is am I going to have to unlock something like NV for each turret? Really? A little bolt on gizmo needs to be unlocked multiple times?

Thats not progression, thats pure, 100% timesink.

I'm sure "minor" certs like that get unlocked quickly enough before it becomes annoying.

[Dreamcast]

are we sure these certs have a downside to them? i understand each gun is like a sidegrade...i dont understand why mods or certs slotted would need to be a sidegrade?

Well according to everything I heard they should...Thats why they are sidegrades and not upgrades..


Sidegrades since their suppose to require sacrifice....The question is does the sacrifice increase each time a person unlocks a box.

[Rbstr]

Well, if you look at adding the cert to the gun as an inherent trade off: You can't add damage if you add accuracy.
But also, if you add a cert they probably each contain some sort of draw back.

I think it'd be pretty silly that at lvl1 you'd have +1, -1 and lvl 5 you'd have +5, -5. They want to give higher levels some power difference.

As far as zoom levels, I think the tradeoffs in that are inherent in the zoom itself. Running around with a 12x bolted to your SMG is not going to do you favors in close quarters.

[Fafnir]

Aren't certs supposed to be usual MMO/F2P progression? Higby said, that vets will have 20% advantage over newcomers, so that's it.

We'll be able to unlock everything, but we won't be able to use everything at the same time though, as it will be defined by specific loadout. For example infiltrators will be able to unlock and upgrade many different kinds of cloak, but they will have to pick one before spawning.

I doubt, that there will be certs with negative values. Sidegrades covered by different weapons and mods for them sound much more reasonable.

[Sabot]

If sidegrades give negative effects, and if the choice to spend points in them isn't reversable... I don't see the point in spending certs on it. If I lose dmg/acuracy/whatever on something, that will at some point while you're playing, be something you'll regret. When you spent certs on it, it might have been the right thing to do, as that + in dmg was needed then. But it wont always be that way... if you later need the acuracy, but becuase of the certs you spent on augmenting dmg, it will now have, say -5, to acuracy.

I can't imagine this being the case... that'd be utterly lame and stupid tbh.

[TheRagingGerbil]

Certs unlock the sidegrades and are used to level those sidegrades.

So Cert1 in Reload speed provides me access to that weapon mod. As I progress through those certs the reload speed gets faster.

So lets say I spend my next point in Ammo Capacity Cert1, so now I have access to a bigger magazine.

When I go to my weapon and choose the utility sidegrade, I will only be able to install either the Reload Speed mod or the Ammo capacity mod, not both.

See how that works? There is your tradeoff.

[kaffis]

I wonder how they're exactly going to prevent higher level players from having a too big advantage over lower level players. Right now I mostly see certs such as "increase zoom" or "increase clip", but I haven't seen anything yet that shows that you have to give up something in order to gain.
It's very simple: You can't put both the large capacity magazine and the enhanced scope on the rifle at the same time.

Well, that's probably not true, because it seems there will be multiple "slots" for the weapon, and I doubt scopes and magazines share a slot, but the point is that by equipping one modification, there are other modifications you've given up equipping.

So there might be 3 scopes (each with their own certs) plus a default scope. You choose which of the 4 you use, so no matter how many certs you've dumped into your character, you have to choose between the accuracy scope, the range scope, the enhanced zoom scope, or the aim down sight speed scope. You give up the other three enhancements when you choose which ONE to equip.

This is why the cert boxes don't bother me. It probably just means that you can cert your accuracy scope to be +1, +2, +3, +4, or +5 accuracy as you go, independently of your +1, +2, +3... range scopes. So if you put 5 boxes into accuracy, and 2 into range, your PERSONAL choice is between a 5 accuracy scope or a 2 range scope. But that's no more powerful than the guy who's put more certs into scopes and has the PERSONAL choice between a 5 accuracy scope and a 4 range scope.

Sure, the scopes available to YOU may not be strictly equal-but-different, but that's because of where you've chosen to put your focus in. The maximum available to everybody is equal-but-different, and that's what counts. Choosing to use a non-maxxed out cert is simply sliding you up and down the 20% veteran vs. newbie advantage scale.

[Sabot]

Certs unlock the sidegrades and are used to level those sidegrades.

So Cert1 in Reload speed provides me access to that weapon mod. As I progress through those certs the reload speed gets faster.

So lets say I spend my next point in Ammo Capacity Cert1, so now I have access to a bigger magazine.

When I go to my weapon and choose the utility sidegrade, I will only be able to install either the Reload Speed mod or the Ammo capacity mod, not both.

See how that works? There is your tradeoff.

Thank Vanu for that... people had me really worried there for awhile.

[SpcFarlen]

Yup only one cert upgrade per weapon. So if you pick one, you dont get another. I know i will probobly be spending a amount of time arguing with myself as to which is better... when they all are good choices :doh:

[Bobby Shaftoe]

There is your tradeoff.

Nope, you're mixing up not being able to use all bonuses at once as some sort of 'cost', compared to having a weapon better than the stock model.

Stock > +5 Accuracy > +5acc/+5reload/+5dmg

No trade off between the stock and your + one stat weapon.

It is interesting how people seem fine with an older player having an outright weapon advantage compared to anyone newer.

[wasdie]

I'm assuming that it's a 1:1 sacrifice to benefit ratio. That will require a lot of beta testing to balance it out correctly though.

It's something that can't really be proven until the masses start beta testing.

[Dreamcast]

If sidegrades give negative effects, and if the choice to spend points in them isn't reversable... I don't see the point in spending certs on it. If I lose dmg/acuracy/whatever on something, that will at some point while you're playing, be something you'll regret. When you spent certs on it, it might have been the right thing to do, as that + in dmg was needed then. But it wont always be that way... if you later need the acuracy, but becuase of the certs you spent on augmenting dmg, it will now have, say -5, to acuracy.

I can't imagine this being the case... that'd be utterly lame and stupid tbh.

Well you could spend on them if you could choose the level of accuracy and sacrifice you want.


So their won't be I regret the cert points I spent since a person can choose how many cert boxes are in effect.

So example....I unlock 5 damage boxes......but I really want only 3 damage boxes in effect so I just select that....so I gain +3 damage -3 accuracy.


Thats the system I want.
Well, if you look at adding the cert to the gun as an inherent trade off: You can't add damage if you add accuracy.
But also, if you add a cert they probably each contain some sort of draw back.

I think it'd be pretty silly that at lvl1 you'd have +1, -1 and lvl 5 you'd have +5, -5. They want to give higher levels some power difference.

As far as zoom levels, I think the tradeoffs in that are inherent in the zoom itself. Running around with a 12x bolted to your SMG is not going to do you favors in close quarters.


I think your right...I think SOE wants higher lvl players to have somewhat of an advantage....People will have more incentives to get certs/aka play if they know they will get an advantage.

In my system +5 -5 which IMO is more fair....It will probably piss people off.


But I rather have fairness tho.

[Dreamcast]

Bump so hopefully somebody in the dev team reads and gives us info


I posted this in the worst week when they were busy with e3.

[Virulence]

My understanding is that you can only equip one cert in the cert slot for that thing, and the tradeoff isn't that you directly lose some other stat - it's that you just can't equip another thing at the same time that would increase that other stat.

It's probably incremental in terms of cert investment - for each "tier" of that cert you unlock, you get an x% additional bonus to the effectiveness of it, up to a certain percentage.

[Zolan]

ITT: Much to-do about something we know almost nothing about.

:cool:

[The Kush]

If you watch the TB stream from a week ago with Higby you see that those little boxes are for "leveling" the cert.

Example: cert for reload speed has 5 little boxes. First box costs 1 cert point. Second costs 2 and so on until you complete the certification.

I imagine you cant use the cert until its fully trained/leveled.

Cheers,

GG

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
this

[Red Beard]

are we sure these certs have a downside to them? i understand each gun is like a sidegrade...i dont understand why mods or certs slotted would need to be a sidegrade?

I don't think things like vehicle cert upgrades are actually sidegrades at all; devs have talked about power increasing is fine as long as it's accessed through gameplay (which I agree with). I think in this case they just arbitrarily pick the maximum alowable % increase in power, speed whatever, and then divide that range by how many certs they want it to take to max out.

Of course I'm not speaking to the standard side graded equipment like gun configurations and stuff.

[IMMentat]

There's unlocks
Items bought vis station-cash and auraxium, go into this category,
they can probably be equiped without any training


There's certs
these improve the effectiveness of specific items abilities or attachments.
Some certs probably open access to common pool attachments to allow further customisation of that item (separate to the bought items? probably depends on the attachment/mod)

Any given weapon can only have 1-2 unlocks attached at any given time (sight and utility item?)

The sacrifice will be in choosing what you want to improve first (it take time to earn certs)
and what attachments you choose to equip.

[Lonehunter]

Haven't read many replies....

But I'm pretty sure Higby said each one of those boxes has a unique addition. Specifically he said it was a shame the guy's cursor wasn't hovering over the box to bring up the tooltip. I'm not sure what cert tree he was referring to...

But the main point I took away was those boxes aren't a scale of power for 1 perk. Those are a collection of perks.

Updated:

Hard to tell whats going on in there without tool tips, each of those segments unlocks different stuff typically...
Source (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?postid=717500#post717500)

[Shade Millith]

are we sure these certs have a downside to them? i understand each gun is like a sidegrade...i dont understand why mods or certs slotted would need to be a sidegrade?

Because it goes against the idea of Planetside, and what the devs have been saying. That a vet and newbie stand on equal footing.

If it's not a sidegrade, then it's a direct power boost, putting the vet on a higher rung than the newbie.

This is supposed to be a FPS first.

[Pepsi]

I'm fairly certain these certs are pure upgrades, as I can't see every single cert having a downside (so accuracy would just be +5 with no negatives). The "choice" like another poster has said is picking which cert to spec since you only have three slots IIRC.

I don't really agree with this system and wish it could be straight side-grades, but this is an MMO. I'd say the devs are trying to counteract this by having low TTK's, so that a newbie who is just starting has a decent chance at killing the vet even without any certs.

I am a bit worried how this works out for air combat, however. Aircraft battles always tend to be a bit more polarizing, with even slight advantages giving the better pilot dominance 100% of the time. Not even considering how the balance is going to be with 3 radically different aircraft, but now vets get straight upgrades to their craft to better maneuver or be faster than the newbies.

[Satexios]

From what I've seen you have to put in 5 points (Or 15 points) to have the cert unlock and then you can use 1 per weapon.

So if you unlock the entire tree of a weapon you can still only use 1 cert. Just look at the equipment footage from e3. I think next to the camo option you have the cert option, you pick one from there and your weapon gets + whatever stat you unlocked in the cert tree.

This way it is still a side-grade and you don't get uber powerful, as some people rather shoot faster others prefer to do damage and another wants accuracy.

I think that is how the system works.