Sniper rifle trail

[Cuross]

Okay, so I have an issue with nearly all shooters and tracer fire. As if hit indicators aren't enough, unnecessary tracer fire gives away your position nearly all the time. I have a special issue with sniper rifles and this trail they cause. Yes, snipers can be annoying, but snipers have a purpose: to scout, to remain hidden, and to take opportunities. So anyone who's been playing the game, is there any hint of a sniper rifle's "tracer" round? Wondering because it's already been said that it'll take two good hits from a sniper (once for shields and once for headshot) to kill, so I think that the tracer is going to be unnecessary, especially given the fact that if a sniper drains your shields, your first thought should probably be "Oh, *expletive*! Hide hide hide!" and not "Now where is that camping *expletive*?"

Or am I the only one who has this issue? I feel that a sniper should be unseen and unkown, and I wouldn't feel the least bit annoyed that a sniper got the better of me.

[SpcFarlen]

Okay, so I have an issue with nearly all shooters and tracer fire. As if hit indicators aren't enough, unnecessary tracer fire gives away your position nearly all the time. I have a special issue with sniper rifles and this trail they cause. Yes, snipers can be annoying, but snipers have a purpose: to scout, to remain hidden, and to take opportunities. So anyone who's been playing the game, is there any hint of a sniper rifle's "tracer" round? Wondering because it's already been said that it'll take two good hits from a sniper (once for shields and once for headshot) to kill, so I think that the tracer is going to be unnecessary, especially given the fact that if a sniper drains your shields, your first thought should probably be "Oh, *expletive*! Hide hide hide!" and not "Now where is that camping *expletive*?"

Or am I the only one who has this issue? I feel that a sniper should be unseen and unkown, and I wouldn't feel the least bit annoyed that a sniper got the better of me.

If you kill your target you remain unseen. Trails act as a negative reinforcement to bad aim in that way. You remain unseen, wait for the right moment, get the kill then leave your position if compromised.

Also during the livestream there were one shot head shots. Again unsure if that was just for demo, or not.

[Sabot]

I have the same problem.. I hate that every round is a tracer round in a machinegun or carbine. Snipers don't use em for obvious reasons... muzzle flashes/small smoke and/or dust clouds, louds bangs in the distance... these things are enough of a give away for sniper rifles imo.

[Redshift]

i imagine it depends on the weapon.
Probably the sniper rifle we saw with a trail was a very powerful one. We saw a smaller semi auto one without tracers too

[NewSith]

There was a tracer in the Day1 PS2E3, but it went in a very straight line without drop, so it's safe to assume that it wasn't a tracer, but a VS pewpewshot instead.

Bullet rifles don't get those obvious tracers even at night.


And, hell, afterall as one the best Werner snipers, I tell you, PS1 sniping was fine even with 0.7 sec tracers.

[ArcIyte]

boo hoo

Planetside 1 had many fun outdoor battles because snipers were largely irrelevant. Sadly, to draw in all the x420xVASILIZAITSEVx360noscopex crowd like yourself, sniping will probably be similar to BF3 and CoD (IE: ruining rifle-range fights at all times)

The harder it is to snipe the better the game will be

/drops mic

[bjorntju1]

The harder it is to snipe the better the game will be

/drops mic

Exactly.

I hope that when snipers fire, a big ''LOOK AT ME, HERE AM I'' sign pops up above their head with fireworks and stuff. I hate snipers.

[NewSith]

I hope that when snipers fire, a big I AM HERE sign pops up above their head with fireworks and stuff. I hate snipers.

Hell, I love those who hate snipers (in computer games, because IRL it's a different story :( ).

[Sabot]

boo hoo

Planetside 1 had many fun outdoor battles because snipers were largely irrelevant. Sadly, to draw in all the x420xVASILIZAITSEVx360noscopex crowd like yourself, sniping will probably be similar to BF3 and CoD (IE: ruining rifle-range fights at all times)

Says the guy flaunting his K/D in the sig.... Seriosuly, why make one option of playing useless just because you don't enjoy it or know how to play it/counter it. ES fighters are very specilized as well... better make them irrelevant so not to ruin game play for infantry...

[Cuross]

Well, I was a fairly decent sniper in PS1 myself, but my issue was that I would have a great spot, get the kill, but because of that tracer his buddies would ground pound the area before I had a chance to get to better cover. I would prefer if maybe instead of a tracer line there was a new hit indicator? Just a different color line showing you the direction of incoming fire? Well, that would make your screen all colorful in a firefight and jumbled. Maybe a 20 or 30% chance to fire a tracer round instead? Haha.

boo hoo

Planetside 1 had many fun outdoor battles because snipers were largely irrelevant. Sadly, to draw in all the x420xVASILIZAITSEVx360noscopex crowd like yourself, sniping will probably be similar to BF3 and CoD (IE: ruining rifle-range fights at all times)

And the what the what crowd? Like myself? I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I fall under that kind of category, besides, snipers aren't ruining anything, they're just doing their jobs like "rifle-range" soldiers are doing theirs. Not to mention, I don't know if we were playing the same planetside, but good snipers were never irrelevant. Especially given how much more difficult sniping was in PS1 compared to other games.

[diLLa]

boo hoo

Planetside 1 had many fun outdoor battles because snipers were largely irrelevant. Sadly, to draw in all the x420xVASILIZAITSEVx360noscopex crowd like yourself, sniping will probably be similar to BF3 and CoD (IE: ruining rifle-range fights at all times)

The harder it is to snipe the better the game will be

/drops mic

Well, if you keep trying to battle snipers with shotguns, then indeed, enjoy rifle range fights.

[bjorntju1]

Also a nice article as on why I hate snipers:

In our multiplayer FPS games, players tend to die a lot. Death is one of the great feedback mechanisms we have in the game, helping you evaluate your own skill versus that of your opponents, and the viability of the tactics being employed by each of you. Being hopeless optimists, we'd like your deaths to be positive experiences. When we started working on TF2, 22 years ago, we decided to examine the things that affected how players felt about their deaths in TFC. Our starting theory was that, for death to be a positive experience, players had to feel like they could have avoided dying if they'd done something different. We found two factors that seemed to be important in light of that theory

The first was whether or not you understand what killed you. If you don't know what killed you, that death is failing in providing you the feedback it's supposed to, and you won't be able to figure out what you could have done differently. Unsurprisingly, we saw that these deaths were highly aggravating to players, and in sufficient number caused new players to stop playing entirely. Trying to reduce the number of these deaths in TF2 was done through a variety of changes. It was one of the reasons why we chose to remove the hand-held grenades that each class had in TFC, which were one of the primary causes of these deaths. It was one of several goals that led to the creation of the freezecam.

The second was whether you felt you were actually engaged with the person who killed you. Dying to someone you weren't engaged with, especially when you were already engaged with someone else, was aggravating. Even worse was dying to someone who you couldn't have engaged with, even if you chose to. In that case, you're very unlikely to believe you could have done anything differently to survive.

In particular, the second seemed to be the root cause of the hatred of Snipers. You're often killed by them while you're engaged with an enemy in the foreground, and most of the time the Sniper is so far away it feels like you couldn't have dealt with him even if you didn't have enemies nearby. In fact, the Sniper's goal is to create that relationship: he specifically wants to fight enemies outside their engagement range, because that's his primary advantage.

http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2477

(funnily enough, TF2 is the only game where I don't get annoyed by snipers)

When I get killed by a sniper I get frustrated because you just can't do something about it. I can't kill him directly because I have an assault rifle and that is not really the gun you want to use to kill somebody a km away. It is easy to say that you need to jump in a fighter and fly over to him to kill him. But why? Why should I go far out of my way to get into a fighter, just to kill one person? I don't want do do that. What if i want to have a fun experience just fighting as infantry taking over a base It isn't fun when you are engaged with multiple people, to get killed by a sniper a km away.

Snipers should not be OSOK on most classes, maybe headshots can OSOK on the lighter armored classes. Snipers need to have tracer rounds so everyone can see where he shot from. This way atleast he has to change his position.

BUT IN REAL LIFE SNIPER DONT HAVE TRACER ROUNDS.

Yes, But this isn't real life.

[diLLa]

Also a nice article as on why I hate snipers:



http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2477

It's hardly relevant though, because in a game where tanks and aircraft can 1 shot you in similar non-reactionable fashion, nerfing the sniper into uselessness seems pretty stupid.

[Gandhi]

I think it forces snipers to stay on the move, which is good in my opinion. You can still remain hidden, you can still scout and you can still take opportunities, you just can't do all 3 of those things at the same time without moving around.

What I don't want is for people to sit off on a hill somewhere totally stationary taking pot shots at people who are too busy with the local fighting to worry about locating some punk sniper 300m away. That kind of gameplay tends to remove the sniper from what's actually going on, so that he's playing in his own little world completely oblivious to anything but his own kill count. You can see the effects of this in any BF3 match, especially Conquest. It's not constructive gameplay for an objective based shooter like this.

[wasdie]

Snipers need to have a gameplay mechanic that keeps them on the move and makes them target only the more important targets that are on the battlefield. This will turn them into more of a recon/assassin role rather than just an infantry killer.

Right now in modern FPSs, snipers can dominate infantry fights. I don't want that to happen here. The trail of the tracer will make sure that snipers don't stay stationary for to long and it will make them pick their targets a bit more wisely. A good balance.

I don't want every other solider on the battlefield to be carrying a scoped rifle. That would just be no fun.

[diLLa]

Snipers need to have a gameplay mechanic that keeps them on the move and makes them target only the more important targets that are on the battlefield. This will turn them into more of a recon/assassin role rather than just an infantry killer.

Right now in modern FPSs, snipers can dominate infantry fights. I don't want that to happen here. The trail of the tracer will make sure that snipers don't stay stationary for to long and it will make them pick their targets a bit more wisely. A good balance.

I don't want every other solider on the battlefield to be carrying a scoped rifle. That would just be no fun.

And it's not going to happen, cause believe it or not, sniping isn't exactly easy and efficient already as it is right now.

For one you have to stay covered from potential air strikes, MAXes are hardly vulnerable to sniper fire, medics can revive teammates potentially nullifying your kill, and even the more squishy targets more than often don't drop from 1 headshot.

[Sabot]

I think it forces snipers to stay on the move, which is good in my opinion. You can still remain hidden, you can still scout and you can still take opportunities, you just can't do all 3 of those things at the same time without moving around.

What I don't want is for people to sit off on a hill somewhere totally stationary taking pot shots at people who are too busy with the local fighting to worry about locating some punk sniper 300m away. That kind of gameplay tends to remove the sniper from what's actually going on, so that he's playing in his own little world completely oblivious to anything but his own kill count. You can see the effects of this in any BF3 match, especially Conquest. It's not constructive gameplay for an objective based shooter like this.

False.

I can remember a dozen times where I, as LA with a Bolt Driver, was up on a moutain/hill a bit away from the base we currently were assaulting, scouting what was inside the CY, looking for incoming ANTs, spotting hidden enemy AMS' around the base, reporting it to my outfit and faction... all through the scope of a sniper rifle. To say it is not constructive game play in PS is simply false. Granted this could be done in other ways as well... but then we're back to that "make one class useless because some don't like them"-argument. And that is NOT constructive in PS if anything.

[Cuross]

Sure, the problem with snipers is that they're always "detached" from the fight, but that's a problem that snipers themselves also face. They realize that they are in no position to lend any further support than relaying information to their squad and taking out big threats. When I was sniping in PS1, I spent most of my time looking for enemy snipers and anti-armor and anti-air units because the normal grunts the rest of the infantry could take care of. Snipers that are looking to stat pad their K/D spread would be more of a hindrance than a help for their squad for all the reasons that you guys have mentioned. Now, the issue that people have to get over is that a sniper has one arch-nemesis: enemy snipers. Don't get me wrong, aircraft and shotguns hurt a lot, too, but only an enemy sniper can combat you on even terms. With that in mind, a lesson that all snipers have to learn is that your first action should always be counter-sniping.

Now for all the people annoyed with snipers and want to handicap them, there is nothing wrong with being killed by something you have no idea how to combat in PS2. I mean, look at it, they're expecting a thousand or more players on at any given time! Hundreds of players involved in a single fight, and snipers won't be able to help with taking a base or defending one. It's the objectives that count, the objectives that win, snipers are just helping their teams out from afar.

[bjorntju1]

It's hardly relevant though, because in a game where tanks and aircraft can 1 shot you in similar non-reactionable fashion, nerfing the sniper into uselessness seems pretty stupid.

I don't say they need to nerf the sniper into uselessness. And you can do more against a tank or aircraft then a sniper a km away. (rocket launchers, C4 etc.) And afaik, tanks and aircraft can't one shot you. Only way to counter a sniper a long distance away is to use a sniper yourself.

[Gandhi]

I can remember a dozen times where I, as LA with a Bolt Driver, was up on a moutain/hill a bit away from the base we currently were assaulting, scouting what was inside the CY, looking for incoming ANTs, spotting hidden enemy AMS' around the base, reporting it to my outfit and faction... all through the scope of a sniper rifle. To say it is not constructive game play in PS is simply false. Granted this could be done in other ways as well... but then we're back to that "make one class useless because some don't like them"-argument. And that is NOT constructive in PS if anything.
There's always exceptions.

[diLLa]

I don't say they need to nerf the sniper into uselessness. And you can do more against a tank or aircraft then a sniper a km away. (rocket launchers, C4 etc.) And afaik, tanks and aircraft can't one shot you. Only way to counter a sniper a long distance away is to use a sniper yourself.

Well, the sniper itself has no counters to air and tanks., so there is your handicap. As an infiltrator you won't have anything like a rocket launcher or C4 at hand.

Often enough the best counter to snipers is just knowing where to walk and knowing where not to walk. If you constantly run through open space and die from snipers, then you just deserve it.

Try to headshot a moving target from 1 km away and then come back.

[Redshift]

When I get killed by a sniper I get frustrated because you just can't do something about it. I can't kill him directly because I have an assault rifle and that is not really the gun you want to use to kill somebody a km away. It is easy to say that you need to jump in a fighter and fly over to him to kill him. But why? Why should I go far out of my way to get into a fighter, just to kill one person? I don't want do do that. What if i want to have a fun experience just fighting as infantry taking over a base It isn't fun when you are engaged with multiple people, to get killed by a sniper a km away.

tbh if no one on your team can be bothered to go and kill the snipers you deserve to be farmed by them.

It's pretty easy to dodge snipers in PS1 even in rexo, and it takes 30 seconds to surge to a hiltop in an infil suit and AMP the lot of them. With everyone having all certs open to them in PS2 it's your own problem if you cba to kill certain people.

[WVoneseven]

wah wah I couldn't have shot him so I couldn't save myself..... watch your surroundings as well as the sniper does... duck and cover like him too. Thats how you survive... tut tut.
Or get mad :P I mean it is what we are after in the first place! an emotional and damaging reaction!

[MrBloodworth]

This is another area where I prefer Planetside stay arcade-y. Dueling snipers is not fun for anyone but the snipers.

[SpcFarlen]

False.

I can remember a dozen times where I, as LA with a Bolt Driver, was up on a moutain/hill a bit away from the base we currently were assaulting, scouting what was inside the CY, looking for incoming ANTs, spotting hidden enemy AMS' around the base, reporting it to my outfit and faction... all through the scope of a sniper rifle. To say it is not constructive game play in PS is simply false. Granted this could be done in other ways as well... but then we're back to that "make one class useless because some don't like them"-argument. And that is NOT constructive in PS if anything.

Agreed. Even in todays military, i can at least speak for the US on this, sniper teams are used as a logistical asset. They go into an area unseen and camp. Gathering information of enemy movement and providing additional intel. This information is crucial.

Edit: Also they arent called snipers in PS2, they are infiltrators. That name difference means a lot.

[bjorntju1]

Well, the sniper itself has no counters to air and tanks., so there is your handicap. As an infiltrator you won't have anything like a rocket launcher or C4 at hand.

Often enough the best counter to snipers is just knowing where to walk and knowing where not to walk. If you constantly run through open space and die from snipers, then you just deserve it.

Try to headshot a moving target from 1 km away and then come back.

As I said before:

It is easy to say that you need to jump in a fighter and fly over to him to kill him. But why? Why should I go far out of my way to get into a fighter, just to kill one person? I don't want do do that. What if i want to have a fun experience just fighting as infantry taking over a base It isn't fun when you are engaged with multiple people, to get killed by a sniper a km away.

Often enough the best counter to snipers is just knowing where to walk and knowing where not to walk. If you constantly run through open space and die from snipers, then you just deserve it.

So I should only stay in the inside of bases, buildings etc? Fun! If you talk about wide open deserts, yes. But that speaks for itself. You can't just always be in cover. And if a sniper kills me, fine. But then do make sure Snipers have tracer rounds and maybe some more things so you and your team atleast have an indication where he is coming from. Me saying that he should have a big sign over his head was of course just kidding. But there should be atleast a way to have an indication where he is coming from.

Try to headshot a moving target from 1 km away and then come back.

Yeah, it is harder. but not impossible

[Sabot]

There's always exceptions.

Sure... like there's exeptions to infantry trolling around with boomers and kamikaze pilots crashing into things... to me it's all valid. It's annoying as hell seeing it and being the victim of it... but it's all valid as there's no exploitation or cheating involved. Same goes for snipers doing what they do...

For the record, I don't play sniper much at all... In PS I was mostly in the Reaver, and when breaching a base I was in a rexo. I do enjoy playing sniper at times though.

[Cuross]

Agreed. Even in todays military, i can at least speak for the US on this, sniper teams are used as a logistical asset. They go into an area unseen and camp. Gathering information of enemy movement and providing additional intel. This information is crucial.

Edit: Also they arent called snipers in PS2, they are infiltrators. That name difference means a lot.

Well, my main issue is with the sniper rifle and the trail giving them away. Sniping is just a role that can be played, but I still disagree with said rifle being traced back to the sniper. And this is where the discussion started :P

[diLLa]

As I said before:





So I should only stay in the inside of bases, buildings etc? Fun! If you talk about wide open deserts, yes. But that speaks for itself.



Yeah, it is harder. but not impossible

Sure, you can stay in buildings the whole day if you dont want to risk to get killed once in a while by a sniper.

By that logic a sniper should stay in his own base to avoid aircrafts or counter snipers.

It's not that hard to avoid getting shot easily, just make correct decisions on where to walk and where not to walk. And actually try to use cover

[Satexios]

This is another area where I prefer Planetside stay arcade-y. Dueling snipers is not fun for anyone but the snipers.

I like being a sniper because it takes patience to find the right target and shoot them through the head. I also knew that once I killed a guy I GTFO and do it all over again at a new position.

In PS1 it took a few shots to drop and you need to use the lower right dot of the rectangle to hit.

But you are simply saying "Dueling tanks is not fun for anyone but the tankers" so remove the tanks..

Are snipers strong? Yes they are.. but they can also be taken out with ease. That is the trade.

[ArcIyte]

There's always exceptions.

lol, no. Anyone who sat on a ridge in PS1 with a bolt driver was wasting a slot on the continent.

[bjorntju1]

Sure, you can stay in buildings the whole day if you dont want to risk to get killed once in a while by a sniper.

By that logic a sniper should stay in his own base to avoid aircrafts or counter snipers.

It's not that hard to avoid getting shot easily, just make correct decisions on where to walk and where not to walk. And actually try to use cover

That is easier said than done. You don't know where the sniper is before he kills you. You can stay in cover what you want. But you never know if a sniper is on the other side of that cover and kills you.

As I said, make sure they have tracer rounds and maybe some other things to have an indication where they are shooting from. They don't need to be nerfed into oblivion. But defiantly don't make it to easy to kill someone.

[diLLa]

That is easier said than done. You don't know where the sniper is before he kills you. You can stay in cover what you want. But you never know if a sniper is on the other side of that cover and kills you.

As I said, make sure they have tracer rounds and maybe some other things to have an indication where they are shooting from.

Obviously you are going to be killed once in a while, but you make it sound like you will be shot at every time you get out of cover, and i highly doubt that.

[Sabot]

A lot of the ones hating on snipers use BF3 and CoD as an example, saying that snipers ruined the gun play for them, and that they don't wat that for PS2. But if you tihnk about it.. maybe that is exactly what's needed so PS doesn't turn into effing BF3 and CoD... I can imagine you'd want to run around with dual SMGs, bunny hopping, corner diving and spraying to rack up K/D... that is exactly what I don't want for PS2... that if anything removes the tactical element of the game.

[Unforgiven]

gamers, seem to hate snipers cause their ego cant handle it.

Tactical players LOVE snipers because they provide tons of information on enemy movement and they have the ability (if they are good) to single handedly shut down a corridor of movement, such as a vehicle pad, or doorway.

and lets not forget, it will be much easier to counter a sniper this time around, because he will not be in REXO with a rocket launcher, he will be an infiltrator with nothing but his rifle... more of a scout than a sniper. that is somthing i am very much looking forward to.

i will be there to SCOUT for my platoons advance and for my commanders to make better decisions. i will take the shot only when i will drop my target, and when my position is no longer vital as a scout.

[bjorntju1]

Obviously you are going to be killed once in a while, but you make it sound like you will be shot at every time you get out of cover, and i highly doubt that.

I don't mind if a sniper kills me once in a while. But I don't want to try to attack a base, while there are 15 snipers all over ridges trying to kill us. If a sniper kills me, alright that's too bad. But I don't want to walk out of my spawn room and get killed immediately again. I will wait for beta and see how OP/not OP they are. I just got bad experiences with snipers in games and I would hate to see that here.

[Redshift]

lol, no. Anyone who sat on a ridge in PS1 with a bolt driver was wasting a slot on the continent.

You shoot 1 vanguard driver repairing his tank and you've saved your side a shed load of AV time and respawns....

Or you clear the walls of SA users and allow your troops into the CY...

If you seriously think snipers are useless you're an idiot.

Bad players are the waste of spots, not classes.

[CutterJohn]

Careful what you wish for. Getting rid of the tracer would of necessity require that sniping become a lot more difficult and/or less effective, especially at extreme range.

[Sabot]

lol, no. Anyone who sat on a ridge in PS1 with a bolt driver was wasting a slot on the continent.

http://www.geekfill.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/noob.jpg

'nuff said..

Careful what you wish for. Getting rid of the tracer would of necessity require that sniping become a lot more difficult and/or less effective, especially at extreme range.

And I wouldn't mind tbh.. I like it to be hard to play this game, as long as it's balanced.

[MrBloodworth]

I like being a sniper because it takes patience to find the right target and shoot them through the head. I also knew that once I killed a guy I GTFO and do it all over again at a new position.

In PS1 it took a few shots to drop and you need to use the lower right dot of the rectangle to hit.

But you are simply saying "Dueling tanks is not fun for anyone but the tankers" so remove the tanks..

Are snipers strong? Yes they are.. but they can also be taken out with ease. That is the trade.

"Dueling snipers" is a term to reference the over abundance of snipers in other titles. It Directly references the many games that devolve into mostly snipers on both sides shooting across the map at each other.

I like snipers in games, I do not like, nor think it makes for good game play when there are to many. Like i said, this is an area where would like Planetside to stay arcade-y.

[Vashyo]

I think snipers are allright in PS2, they're easy prey for aircrafts and tanks and anything under long ranges.

PS2 is not CoD where sniper has no natural enemies or BF where they can just camp and kill people on flags.

[Cuross]

Careful what you wish for. Getting rid of the tracer would of necessity require that sniping become a lot more difficult and/or less effective, especially at extreme range.

Lol woah! Wasn't expecting a mod to show up. But yes, I've thought a lot about the sacrifices a sniper would have to make, especially at extreme ranges. The thing I liked most about sniping in PS1 was that you had to both lead the target AND wait for your targeting reticule to go down. I've always wondered what would happen if a sniper would need to fully set up their shot, perhaps to a certain 'lazed' distance. I'm talking about a real sniper rifle, mind you, not a marksman rifle that can be used at mid ranges. Laze for a distance, then all the shots you fire until you laze again would be more or less accurate for that distance. But I don't actually know how sniping will be in PS2 since I didn't get a very good look at it, so if it's not like PS1, then I don't know what it would do, haha.

[Graywolves]

If you feel your position is lost then cloak and relocate.

[CutterJohn]

And I wouldn't mind tbh.. I like it to be hard to play this game, as long as it's balanced.

Yes you would. It would be a very big sacrifice. Currently the sniper has big damage and a huge range, at the expense of stealth. If you want the stealth back, you're going to take a huge hit to range or damage.

[Xyntech]

Ranged battles weren't hurt by snipers in PS1, they were hurt by MA rifles being so shitty at longer range, due to high TTK, noteworthy damage degradation, mediocre accuracy, warping, etc.

I'm fine with snipers having tracers or not, depending on what ends up being the most balanced. But what I'd really like to see is for rifles to be able to compete with snipers at all but the longest ranges, at which range snipers are going to have to work extra hard for their shots anyways.

[bullet]

You guys seem to be forgetting this is not BF/CoD. There are hundreds of other people fighting alongside you. Hopefully you're not all using the same noob method of farming kills. So there should be snipers on your team, air, tanks, infantry, maxes, INFILTRATORS, medics, and engies.

There are tons of methods availble and different ROUTES to move around and flank. The sniper class is called infiltrator for a reason. In PS1, you can cloak and be invisible, sneak behind enemy lines and blow up/stab/shoot the camping snipers, that is another counter to the sniper. Just because they are given a sniper rifle doesnt mean that their only capable of sniping. So far I have yet to see any gameplay of actual infiltrators being infiltrators which is quite sad.

[CutterJohn]

Ranged battles weren't hurt by snipers in PS1, they were hurt by MA rifles being so shitty at longer range, due to high TTK, noteworthy damage degradation, mediocre accuracy, warping, etc.

I'm fine with snipers having tracers or not, depending on what ends up being the most balanced. But what I'd really like to see is for rifles to be able to compete with snipers at all but the longest ranges, at which range snipers are going to have to work extra hard for their shots anyways.

Shouldn't be as big of an issue. The major problem was the armor absorption on Rexo, which pretty much meant all max range MA shots went to armor, which meant the player with MA had to whittle through 300+ hitpoints at 10 damage per shot or so.

In PS2, no absorption that I know of, and cloakers are a pretty weak class. I'm betting they are the ones with the sniper rifle specifically to make counterfire more effective.

[ArcIyte]

The sniper kids here would have you believe that they serve as some great scout for their "outfit" or that they only take out key elements like vanguard drivers (lol).

In reality, they did none of these, and spent all their time shooting afkers, noobs, and generally irritating people who were actually playing the game.

Snipers are fine in realistic or sim games like Arma and Red Orchestra, because there are realistic downsides to using a scoped rifle. Modern arcade-style "sniper rifles" take those downsides away and we're left with a bunch of pussies with railguns. And just for laughs the OP wants to be virtually undetectable by removing tracers from sniper rounds. What a joke.

[Cuross]

Will sniper rifles need to lead targets and wait for targeting reticule to become accurate again like from PS1? I actually found that I much preferred that kind of sniping compared to other modern games, meant I had to really plan my shots and targets. It's such a switch from modern games, that I believe only the hardiest of newcomers would continue using a sniper rifle at extreme ranges since it was pretty easy to use at short-mid ranges.

Edit:
And ArcIyte, dude chill out. We understand your issues with it, no need to try to offend. You would have us all believe that every sniper was a stat padder, and surely you've had bad experiences with them in every game, but that's what we're trying to do, figure out if there is a way to make sniping different from those other games that you've had issues with.

[Sabot]

Yes you would. It would be a very big sacrifice. Currently the sniper has big damage and a huge range, at the expense of stealth. If you want the stealth back, you're going to take a huge hit to range or damage.

That's the thing... I don't mind no cloak at all if that's the trade off I need to make to be the most effective at what I'm supposed to do. Nor do I mind that the Beamer is all I get if I want to run around unseen all the time. Because people do have legimate (if somewhat misdirected sometimes) concerns about the class. It should not be easy to play such a, imo, useful and powerful class. If I got my way, you'd need the range finder at those extreme ranges, and while there's no tracer round, a clear muzzle flash and a loud bang would defenitely make your position known.
I even said in another thread a while back that these bangs and muzzle flashes could be autmaticly located by infantry in range, using the 3D spotting system, so you instantly know where they are.

[Redshift]

The sniper kids here would have you believe that they serve as some great scout for their "outfit" or that they only take out key elements like vanguard drivers (lol)

I was pointing out that sniping is far from useless, but please do tell us what you spent your time doing that was so much more worthwhile? because honestly, unless you were the infil sticking the router pad in the gen of the red alert interlink, then you were just as worthless as everyone else.

[RodenyC]

The sniper kids here would have you believe that they serve as some great scout for their "outfit" or that they only take out key elements like vanguard drivers (lol).

In reality, they did none of these, and spent all their time shooting afkers, noobs, and generally irritating people who were actually playing the game.

Snipers are fine in realistic or sim games like Arma and Red Orchestra, because there are realistic downsides to using a scoped rifle. Modern arcade-style "sniper rifles" take those downsides away and we're left with a bunch of pussies with railguns. And just for laughs the OP wants to be virtually undetectable by removing tracers from sniper rounds. What a joke.
Don't know what you're on but I've seen and done those very things you said people didn't do.As well infiltrators should be hard to detect whether they are sniping/recon or infiltrating a base. If anything you should be able to customize your gun to where you loose the tracer ,but have a heavyer gun or such.

[Eyeklops]

Because of the new spotting mechanics, that sniper sitting up on a hill may be doing a great deed to his squad regardless of what his K/D says.

Also, not all snipers are bush wookies. When sniping in BF3 I typically use a 4X scope and work with the squad to push/defend objectives.

[CutterJohn]

That's the thing... I don't mind no cloak at all if that's the trade off I need to make to be the most effective at what I'm supposed to do. Nor do I mind that the Beamer is all I get if I want to run around unseen all the time. Because people do have legimate (if somewhat misdirected sometimes) concerns about the class. It should not be easy to play such a, imo, useful and powerful class. If I got my way, you'd need the range finder at those extreme ranges, and while there's no tracer round, a clear muzzle flash and a loud bang would defenitely make your position known.
I even said in another thread a while back that these bangs and muzzle flashes could be autmaticly located by infantry in range, using the 3D spotting system, so you instantly know where they are.

I'm not talking about the stealth of the cloak. I'm talking about the stealth of being able to shoot without betraying your location, which is incredibly powerful. Cloakers with pistols are no big deal, you know in general where they are. Snipers without tracers would be incredibly problematic to find.

[Hypevosa]

If you really hate snipers so much then take up the mantle of the countersniper and stop whining and start getting revenge. Every effective squad should have 2 snipers for counter sniping purposes and for scouting, softening enemy defenses before entry. If you can depend on your counter sniper to have your back you should be fine.

I'm a sniper, but I only snipe normal infantry when there aren't other snipers around that I can go toe to toe with.

[Sabot]

I'm not talking about the stealth of the cloak. I'm talking about the stealth of being able to shoot without betraying your location, which is incredibly powerful. Cloakers with pistols are no big deal, you know in general where they are. Snipers without tracers would be incredibly problematic to find.

Ah, I misunderstood then. But I believe I answered on that as well in my other post. And if that seem like a too extreme of a solution to it, at least there is 3D spotting.. and if it works anything like in BF3, all you have to do is aim in the general direction and "spot" and you'll see them, without actually seeing them.

[ArcIyte]

If you really hate snipers so much then take up the mantle of the countersniper and stop whining and start getting revenge. Every effective squad should have 2 snipers for counter sniping purposes and for scouting, softening enemy defenses before entry. If you can depend on your counter sniper to have your back you should be fine.

I'm a sniper, but I only snipe normal infantry when there aren't other snipers around that I can go toe to toe with.

No thanks, that runs the risk of giving them a fun sniper duel. I'll give them the same gift they give infantry by farming them in my mosquito.

[CutterJohn]

If you really hate snipers so much then take up the mantle of the countersniper and stop whining and start getting revenge. Every effective squad should have 2 snipers for counter sniping purposes and for scouting, softening enemy defenses before entry. If you can depend on your counter sniper to have your back you should be fine.

I'm a sniper, but I only snipe normal infantry when there aren't other snipers around that I can go toe to toe with.

I don't hate snipers. I do think the tracer is fine as is, though, and serves as a fine balance for their great range advantage.

If you're worried about giving your position away to air and cloakers, and don't like repositioning, I might recommend making friends with an AA max and an engineer with cloak detection. If you just want to be lone wolf sniper from the same spot constantly, I'm not sure what to tell you.

[EVILoHOMER]

It's good, they need to keep it.

[Cuross]

No thanks, that runs the risk of giving them a fun sniper duel. I'll give them the same gift they give infantry by farming them in my mosquito.

lol and us snipers respect that. But now I'm just wondering, if everything is supposed to be fair, then when you happen to sneak up behind an enemy, do you tap them on the shoulder and ask for a proper firefight? Lord knows he's just waiting to be farmed if you got behind him, haha.

-----------------------
Back on topic:
I think the real issue is if the tracer round is going to go away, finding a different sacrifice is necessary. As a sniper, we still want the range and damage, but I think I can speak for the rest of us when we say we'd happily sacrifice time instead. Give us back the targeting reticule or put in a mechanic where we have to take the time to set up a steady shot, without us being able to move even the crosshairs too much. That makes it so that we can't easily involve ourselves in a normal firefight from such great distance and we'd pretty much have to focus on finding a stationary target.

Would there be a way to make it so that the tracer started halfway through the shot instead of going all the way to the sniper rifle? Or three quarters the way, that way people will still know the direction of the sniper, just not the actual area.

[Xyntech]

If you really hate snipers so much then take up the mantle of the countersniper and stop whining and start getting revenge. Every effective squad should have 2 snipers for counter sniping purposes and for scouting, softening enemy defenses before entry. If you can depend on your counter sniper to have your back you should be fine.

I'm a sniper, but I only snipe normal infantry when there aren't other snipers around that I can go toe to toe with.

No. No no no no no.

I am very much in favor of snipers. In the first Planetsides prime, snipers were often a valuable part of tower and bridge fights, and occasionally even base fights.

But Snipers should never be primarily about counter sniping. That should be one of their roles, but if it's their primary role, the concept is broken. This isn't a reality simulator, this is a game. You don't put something into the game to counter itself. That's just stupid.

2 snipers per squad? So let's see, we've got 2 engi's, 2 medics, 2 snipers... That leaves 4 players to divide between MAXes, Heavy Assault, Light Assault (gotta have at least one LA if they have the ammo boxes), and non sniping infiltrators.

Get real. A squad should maybe have 1 sniper maximum if their squad isn't focused on ranged combat, if even that many.

Snipers are not a waste, certainly not in a free form game like Planetside, but snipers who only focus on shooting other snipers are useless even in Planetside.

[Masahiko]

The Bolt Driver left a huge red trail after it was fired. Not to mention that almost everything was a tracer in PS1. Consdering that it looks like they have one slot and a pistol i think its more than fine for those future inf snipers.

[Raka Maru]

It didn't surprise me that this turned into another name calling rabid sniper debate... Again.

* 15 snipers on a hill is called air cav bait. Easy kills.

* This isn't a death match game. If you can't personally get at the sniper or don't want to, there are other empire members that will do it. Get squadded or join an outfit.

* Snipers should be feared and hated by enemy foot Zerg. That's what they are for. Stop complaining and go hunt them if you hate them so much.

* If you just want to deal with shooting other soldiers in your vicinity, then Planetside is gonna open your eyes wide, and then shut them tight as you will die often. There is much more going on than your immediate surroundings.

* If a sniper is affecting your K/D count and your kill steak, then he is doing his job for his empire. The ones who can't take the time to go hunt him down are the actual K/D stat whores.

I personally enjoy both sniping and hunting snipers. It pulls me out of the meat grinder for a while. I'll either put away my MCG or Max and grab a plane or put on my cloak and find them. Now that cloakers are also snipers, I can just get behind him and take his head off rather than place a boomer at his feet.

Back on topic of OP. Having tracers on a sniper rifle makes no sense for that class (logically). It gives away your position, but it's a lot better than scope glare, which is a bad idea for fixing camping problems. But then again, this is not a death match game with fixed spawn points, this is planetside, and camping is a non-issue because of the scale and availability of movable spawn points.

[MrBloodworth]

Snipers in PS2 cloak there Raka Maru. That's a game changer.

[Raka Maru]

lol and us snipers respect that. But now I'm just wondering, if everything is supposed to be fair, then when you happen to sneak up behind an enemy, do you tap them on the shoulder and ask for a proper firefight? Lord knows he's just waiting to be farmed if you got behind him, haha.

-----------------------
Back on topic:
I think the real issue is if the tracer round is going to go away, finding a different sacrifice is necessary. As a sniper, we still want the range and damage, but I think I can speak for the rest of us when we say we'd happily sacrifice time instead. Give us back the targeting reticule or put in a mechanic where we have to take the time to set up a steady shot, without us being able to move even the crosshairs too much. That makes it so that we can't easily involve ourselves in a normal firefight from such great distance and we'd pretty much have to focus on finding a stationary target.

Would there be a way to make it so that the tracer started halfway through the shot instead of going all the way to the sniper rifle? Or three quarters the way, that way people will still know the direction of the sniper, just not the actual area.

I really like this idea! Most snipers will not want to trade off the tracer round for let's say a softer hitting bullet or shorter range, but if it left a "trail" of some sort within the visible range of enemy soldiers, that would be good. Just add it to the fog of war.

[Cuross]

I really like this idea! Most snipers will not want to trade off the tracer round for let's say a softer hitting bullet or shorter range, but if it left a "trail" of some sort within the visible range of enemy soldiers, that would be good. Just add it to the fog of war.

Hey, I'm just trying to come up with any other possible compromises outside their basic effectiveness. I mean, I can still play sniper with the tracer giving me away, but I find the whole idea of a tracer coming all the way back to me a bit odd. However, I'm beginning to think that no compromises can be made since both sides are offering points and counterpoints but nothing else. Granted, this is a really difficult issue to maneuver around, so this will probably stick to full tracers. I just hope that sniping isn't going to be as easy as other modern games. At ANY distance.

[Raka Maru]

Snipers in PS2 cloak there Raka Maru. That's a game changer.

Yes, I realize this. It seems to be confirmed however in the demos that cloak turns off when shooting, and the cloak has a very short timer that I saw. It looks useful for just running to another piece of cover.

Haven't seen how cloaks behave yet without sniper rifles equipped so can't make a judgement on that yet. Hopefully today's TB live feed will show some of this action. Infiltraitor class seems to have its own subclass of "fully cloaked sabbotour" and "sneaky moving sniper".

[Raka Maru]

Hey, I'm just trying to come up with any other possible compromises outside their basic effectiveness. I mean, I can still play sniper with the tracer giving me away, but I find the whole idea of a tracer coming all the way back to me a bit odd. However, I'm beginning to think that no compromises can be made since both sides are offering points and counterpoints but nothing else. Granted, this is a really difficult issue to maneuver around, so this will probably stick to full tracers. I just hope that sniping isn't going to be as easy as other modern games. At ANY distance.

What I meant by adding it to the "Fog of War" was that if enemy soldiers were near the sniper, they would see where it came from, but of they were far down range, they would only see a trail for the last part of the bullet travel that is near them, whether the shot was directed to them or another nearby soldier.

To be clear, I don't like my position given away by tracers... That said, this would be a good compromise to me.

Remove the tracer and change it to a sonic trail, smoke trail, energy trail or whatever, but only visible by enemy soldiers if they are in range.

http://img.tapatalk.com/465f8e7c-937f-329d.jpg

Barney 1, 2, and 3 would see different parts of the trail because of their position.

3 is target and knows where in general direction.
2 knows path, but not exact location of shooter or target.
1 knows where sniper is exactly, but not target. He can come try and get me.

[Malorn]

Oh noes, there is a trail after sniper shots that gives their position away! They might have to relocate, use that cloaking device, and play strategically! Its as if the game has tradeoffs and balance! Oh my!

[Xyntech]

That's a decent idea Raku. I like it. Pretty good compromise. Like a superior damage direction indicator at range, and an additional give away in addition to sound for close range.

[Envenom]

One shot, one kill.

[Raka Maru]

That's a decent idea Raku. I like it. Pretty good compromise. Like a superior damage direction indicator at range, and an additional give away in addition to sound for close range.

This would also "encourage" snipers to use longer ranges to not give themselves away. This "discourages" the closer shots cuz you will be spotted, and in range of non sniper rifles and powerful machine guns.

Smart snipers will still shoot and move because the sniper hunters will be heading closer. Gives time for both players to reposition themselves.

[2coolforu]

Okay, so I have an issue with nearly all shooters and tracer fire. As if hit indicators aren't enough, unnecessary tracer fire gives away your position nearly all the time. I have a special issue with sniper rifles and this trail they cause. Yes, snipers can be annoying, but snipers have a purpose: to scout, to remain hidden, and to take opportunities. So anyone who's been playing the game, is there any hint of a sniper rifle's "tracer" round? Wondering because it's already been said that it'll take two good hits from a sniper (once for shields and once for headshot) to kill, so I think that the tracer is going to be unnecessary, especially given the fact that if a sniper drains your shields, your first thought should probably be "Oh, *expletive*! Hide hide hide!" and not "Now where is that camping *expletive*?"

Or am I the only one who has this issue? I feel that a sniper should be unseen and unkown, and I wouldn't feel the least bit annoyed that a sniper got the better of me.

Planetside 1 had a huge trail for the sniper, in a huge ass battle with 200 people shooting everywhere you have plenty of cover as a sniper. The trail is one of the few things that gives a player an idea of where fire is coming from.

[Dreamcast]

One shot one kill is in the game.


2:16 in the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1-4AePpza-4


Either the guy was on low health before hand or headshots are OSOK against light troops

[vampyro]

Sniping in ps1 was very similar and very lethal. Remember you might have 10-20 snipers in one battle. Im pretty sure its safe to say from a ps1 vets perspective, "its fine, learn to play." The tracer fire needs to be there, other wise ps would be called sniper wars.

[Bags]

There is at night
http://oi47.tinypic.com/s3n04w.jpg