Drop pods, and the lack of SOI.

[MrBloodworth]

Edit:
I'm comfortable with the Explanation, and plan Matt Higby outlined in the recent AGN video.

See here: http://youtu.be/rO9syubHTK0?hd=1&t=47m57s



Original post:
While watching the various videos come out, I noticed there is no restriction on where a drop pod can be landed.

If Planetside is to be a war game. This is a problem. In war games, Terrain ( Roads, valleys, bridges ETC.. ), defensive points ( Gun encampments, Infantry, base defenses, gates, ETC... ), and direction of forces is important. The current implementation bypasses all of that, and allows for a heavily armed unit to bypass any defenses in play, including terrain, walls or other immoveable features. Its also on a personal timer, unlike the HART, that's was a Reinforcement mechanic across empires.

This means that enemy movement is random, from all sides, with no fronts.

In another game ( Section 8 ), this was balanced with user placed Auto defense guns that would need to be removed by ground or air units to open this possibility. A good compromise.

This is drastically different then the circumventing of the above using things like the galaxy drop ships, as those methods require exposure up to the point of deployment.

EDIT:

*Drop pods ( not just higby ) all over a base, no SOI blocking the deployment of them. Weakens any form of assault or defense front. At 28:12 Higby drop pods RIGHT ON TO A CAPTURE POINT ROOF, walks in uncontested, and caps the points.
http://youtu.be/017I9ghLsYA?hd=1&t=28m12s


*Bases are not designed to be defended, apparently. They look like death match/arena areas.

*Lack of working doors.

*Watch here, to see drop pods fall like rain right onto a base, to the point where one slides off the center spire.
http://youtu.be/017I9ghLsYA?hd=1&t=25m34s

PLEASE PUT BACK SOI OVER ANY CAPTURE POINT OR BASE.

How it should be:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1725660/PS2/SOI.png

How it currently is:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1725660/PS2/NoSOI.png

[Stardouser]

Aren't some people concerned about light assault getting into hard to reach places? This means everyone else but MAXs will be able to do it too.

[Cuross]

It would be worth noting that those folks we saw hotdropping directly into the base were spawning on squad. Not sure how I feel about that new feature for precisely the reasons you mentioned, because if you happened to have been a forward infil team and died, you could always spawn and come back as a heavy assault, stripping off your cloak and lack of shields for a heavy AR and higher survivability.

[Thomas]

What are these guys supposed to be dropping from?

HART Shuttle I guess.

[MercDT]

I watched the stream last night and they were in fact drop podding into the base.

I do recall someone from SOE stating that squad members will not be able to drop into bases...so maybe it hasn't been implemented yet? Much like the MAX units not being able to get into tanks.

edit: There is no HART. This is the squad spawning mechanic.

[CutterJohn]

I agree that the spawning into the middle of the base is a bit much, but remember that we don't know what the reuse timer on the squad spawn is. We know for a fact they intend it to be an occasional luxury rather than a reliable method of getting reinforcements on site. Section 8, while having a similar mechanic, had it as the only spawn method.


I'm thinking this really won't be much of an issue.

[Figment]

What are these guys supposed to be dropping from?

I didn't quite hear your question, but the answer is aliens.

[SpcFarlen]

What are these guys supposed to be dropping from?

Same place you get orbital strikes from. SPAAAAIIIICEEE!


Theres a cooldown on using the pod. It has to be on your squad leader. No you cant spawn on anyone. That was just in E3 Demo to show it off because of limited numbers.

[MrBloodworth]

I watched the stream last night and they were in fact drop podding into the base.

I do recall someone from SOE stating that squad members will not be able to drop into bases...so maybe it hasn't been implemented yet? Much like the MAX units not being able to get into tanks.

edit: There is no HART. This is the squad spawning mechanic.

Perhaps it is not implemented, or this is intended. But until it is, I'm going to comment. I feel its necessary to bring such things up. Its why we are here.

It would be worth noting that those folks we saw hotdropping directly into the base were spawning on squad. Not sure how I feel about that new feature for precisely the reasons you mentioned, because if you happened to have been a forward infil team and died, you could always spawn and come back as a heavy assault, stripping off your cloak and lack of shields for a heavy AR and higher survivability.

I too do not like this leapfrog ability. Its a logistics issue for me.

[ikon]

didnt they mention a few times that a lot of the features in game wont be there later on.

just to get good fights for the e3 viewing

[Xyntech]

I'm somewhat concerned with this, although in it's present form it has a long cooldown so it won't completely negate the Galaxy.

I wouldn't mind seeing it limited to being unable to drop within a small radius around a base. Explain it away as some sort of defensive gun that can only shoot down high altitude drop pods directly over the base or some such bullshit.

Also, we saw MAXes squad spawning in drop pads, so even MAXes would be able to get to some of these strange locations. I'm not concerned about that part though, as Galaxies will be able to get people in weird spots as well. The only part that concerns me is that it could infringe on the Galaxies role a little too much. I'd like to see the Galaxy still used as a transport, not only as a spawn point.

didnt they mention a few times that a lot of the features in game wont be there later on.

just to get good fights for the e3 viewing

That's true. We don't really know which ones will or won't. I can certainly see the value in having them drop anywhere during E3, since the playable space isn't that much larger than the base itself.

But it is something to keep an eye on.

[Figment]

So who'd like to see infils take a base's "Orbital Defenses" offline so players can HART into a SOI/base area, which would otherwise have been prevented through some lore/gimmick/apple pie/doohicky/sentry gun/automated SAM missile site with built-in fax-modem and minibar?

[SpcFarlen]

I'm somewhat concerned with this, although in it's present form it has a long cooldown so it won't completely negate the Galaxy.

I wouldn't mind seeing it limited to being unable to drop within a small radius around a base. Explain it away as some sort of defensive gun that can only shoot down high altitude drop pods directly over the base or some such bullshit.

Also, we saw MAXes squad spawning in drop pads, so even MAXes would be able to get to some of these strange locations. I'm not concerned about that part though, as Galaxies will be able to get people in weird spots as well. The only part that concerns me is that it could infringe on the Galaxies role a little too much. I'd like to see the Galaxy still used as a transport, not only as a spawn point.

The galaxy allows you to drop troops in an area without any. For the pods to work you need your Squad lead to get there. That is a big distinctions to make too.

[Canaris]

this can be ironed out in beta :)

[The Kush]

You should not be able to squad spawn inside a base, near a base, or dropped near or on a base (unless from a galaxy) DEVS PLEASE BRING BACK THE SPHERE OF INFLUENCE SOLELY FOR RESPAWN REASONS

[SpcFarlen]

You should not be able to squad spawn inside a base, near a base, or dropped near or on a base (unless from a galaxy) DEVS PLEASE BRING BACK THE SPHERE OF INFLUENCE SOLELY FOR RESPAWN REASONS

I wouldnt be opposed to that at all. Though that may cause squad leaders to just stay outside :D

[Magician]

Yeah I understand that this is a large concern. I am currently playing at E3 and I feel that every time I try and capture a facility someone from the other team pops up by me from a drop pod and stops my capture. Especially because you can drop in as a max.

Granted there are a few factors at work here. One is that I will probably never really be alone so there should be support for any character to capture a hack. Second is that there is a cool down of 300 seconds (5 min) to prevent SPAM dropping.

This would be really chaotic however if you had battles of HUNDREDS of people. I dont know if I will personally like it... but maybe that is what they want? I am not too sure if planetside 2 development team really wants to have the type of LOCK DOWN ability that planetside1 base captures were like. I think they wanted constant swapping of the hack points.

But I will address Higby or one of the development teams about the SOI issue with drop pods.

[Stardouser]

You should not be able to squad spawn inside a base, near a base, or dropped near or on a base (unless from a galaxy) DEVS PLEASE BRING BACK THE SPHERE OF INFLUENCE SOLELY FOR RESPAWN REASONS

You've raised a question. So you don't want squad spawning to work in bases.

What about battles that erupt in the space between bases?

Also, if squad spawn doesn't work in bases for attackers, should it work for defenders? After all, attackers worked hard to shut down respawn rooms...

[MercDT]

Perhaps it is not implemented, or this is intended. But until it is, I'm going to comment. I feel its necessary to bring such things up. Its why we are here.

By all means, comment. This is why we need to give them feedback even though we're not in beta.

I think I also remember reading somewhere that you can only "spawn" on your squad leaders, not squad members...which is something that the squad leader has to cert him/her self into.

[SpcFarlen]

By all means, comment. This is why we need to give them feedback even though we're not in beta.

I think I also remember reading somewhere that you can only "spawn" on your squad leaders, not squad members...which is something that the squad leader has to cert him/her self into.

Ya for E3 they set it for everyone. Makes a better demo for those that hop on and play for a few minutes. They get into the action fast, get a feel, and all that jazz.

Its not going to be there at launch or beta.

[Meecrob]

I, for one, am really happy how squad spawn turned out. Not BF style where you just appear next to someone, but with the droppod. The cooldown of 120 sec seems perfect to me aswell. Good job devs!

[Raymac]

I really don't see any problem with the way it is set up now. Squad spawning doesn't mean you instantly appear where ever your squad leader is. You have a to drop in.

Hasn't anyone here been a Reaver pilot when there was a Gal drop right in front of you and you could bask in that turkey shoot kill spam? It will be similar with this squad spawn mechanic. You want to drop on the roof? Thanks for the easy kill.

Plus, you can tweek things like the timer if it is overpowered and that will balance it out easily.

Finally, if the complaint is about dropping behind enemy lines to cause havoc...airborn rangers. It's been around since WW2. It's not giong to make the game have "no fronts" as the OP seems so worried about.

[MrBloodworth]

Finally, if the complaint is about dropping behind enemy lines to cause havoc...airborn rangers. It's been around since WW2. It's not giong to make the game have "no fronts" as the OP seems so worried about.

Huge difference in airborne rangers, and dropping uncontested right into the base. I covered this already.

[Raymac]

Huge difference in airborne rangers, and dropping uncontested right into the base. I covered this already.

Not really. It's just a high altitude drop with a commando setting the drop point. Same exact thing. Plus dropping into a hot zone is extremely risky as we all saw in PS1.

[ringring]

I agree that the spawning into the middle of the base is a bit much, but remember that we don't know what the reuse timer on the squad spawn is. We know for a fact they intend it to be an occasional luxury rather than a reliable method of getting reinforcements on site. Section 8, while having a similar mechanic, had it as the only spawn method.


I'm thinking this really won't be much of an issue.

However arclegger said he looked forward to a tactic of a cloaker in baswe and the entire squad spwning on him to cause mayhem:- this implies the timer os on the spawner and not the spawnee as I had assumed.

I'm not in favour of it tbh.

RE: SOI, I wonder how the calculate base capture/resecure xp? Without an SOI I presume it is a straight amout each time.

[ringring]

I really don't see any problem with the way it is set up now. Squad spawning doesn't mean you instantly appear where ever your squad leader is. You have a to drop in.

Hasn't anyone here been a Reaver pilot when there was a Gal drop right in front of you and you could bask in that turkey shoot kill spam? It will be similar with this squad spawn mechanic. You want to drop on the roof? Thanks for the easy kill.

Plus, you can tweek things like the timer if it is overpowered and that will balance it out easily.

Finally, if the complaint is about dropping behind enemy lines to cause havoc...airborn rangers. It's been around since WW2. It's not giong to make the game have "no fronts" as the OP seems so worried about.
It also make a gal less meaningful.....
Why bother with a gal if you can get 1 person on target and the rest squad spawn.

[MrBloodworth]

Not really. It's just a high altitude drop with a commando setting the drop point. Same exact thing. Plus dropping into a hot zone is extremely risky as we all saw in PS1.

I highly disagree with what you are trying to equate here. Airplanes are exposed the entire time until the target area.

[Geist]

I'm sure it was a E3 only feature to get as many people into the fight as fast as possible. I'd be surprised if it's still there when Beta launches.

[Stardouser]

It also make a gal less meaningful.....
Why bother with a gal if you can get 1 person on target and the rest squad spawn.

For transporting you all the way from wherever you initiated the attack from. Also dropping you right in the middle of a base instead of trying to walk in. And more.

[Xyntech]

The galaxy allows you to drop troops in an area without any. For the pods to work you need your Squad lead to get there. That is a big distinctions to make too.

Considering the speed at which ES fighters can currently travel, I think the distinction is small. Obviously that speed can be tweaked if needed, but fighters will undoubtedly always be faster than Galaxies.

One squad member (remember you can currently spawn on any squad member) flies in at break neck speed, bails out, tells squad over VOIP to spawn on him. A rain of drop pods comes in. Makeshift Gal drop.

Obviously even if this is the case, the Galaxy will still be useful. As a spawn point and even as a drop ship during squad spawnings long cooldown. But I do think it could diminish the Galaxies value, which is the opposite of what I'd like to see.

This isn't particularly at the top of my concerns for the game, but I do think it could use some looking into. I'll be interested to test it in a real battle, not some E3 clusterfuck.

Realistically, they could limit it in multiple ways. For example, they could prevent certain classes such as MAXes from squad spawning. Maybe even HA, although that seems like it could be a bit too restrictive.

[Dreamcast]

Yeah...seems like the direction of the game was a bit off...Their was no real frontline at all, it was just chaotic.


Of course everybody was a n00b so maybe thats why....or droppods also kind of ruin the frontline.

[The Kush]

You've raised a question. So you don't want squad spawning to work in bases.

What about battles that erupt in the space between bases?

Also, if squad spawn doesn't work in bases for attackers, should it work for defenders? After all, attackers worked hard to shut down respawn rooms...

Squad spawning outside a sphere of influence is okay. But being able to spawn on a guy in enemy territory makes defense worthless and isnt fair to the defenders.

[Raymac]

I highly disagree with what you are trying to equate here. Airplanes are exposed the entire time until the target area.

True, but how many times is a gal drop taken out BEFORE they arrive on target? Almost never. Now the flight ceiling is going to be even higher. The "exposure" you mention is basically zero in Planetside.

[Raymac]

Yeah...seems like the direction of the game was a bit off...Their was no real frontline at all, it was just chaotic.


Of course everybody was a n00b so maybe thats why....or droppods also kind of ruin the frontline.

Also, there was no "front line" because it is just a small fight in a very limited area.

[Stardouser]

Squad spawning outside a sphere of influence is okay. But being able to spawn on a guy in enemy territory makes defense worthless and isnt fair to the defenders.

Well, I think defenders aren't so bad off as that, but, let's just say I concede the point and let's have a sphere of influence preventing squad spawning in a base or even for 100 meters outside of it. If we do that, there's no reason to have huge cooldowns on it, since by definition they will only occur elsewhere, is there?

To put it another way, for battles in the middle of a transit route (halfway between invasion departure point to target base), are we expecting to actually deploy Galaxies there in the middle of nowhere, or are we not expecting Galaxy deployments and for the battles to be, you die, now drive all the way back?

[MrBloodworth]

True, but how many times is a gal drop taken out BEFORE they arrive on target? Almost never.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........... Wut. Sometimes they got taken out a continent away from target.

[Xyntech]

God damn it, is this another one of those things that we have to wait for beta to know for sure? Cut the hair already!

[Raymac]

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........... Wut. Sometimes they got taken out a continent away from target.

Yeah, that 1 time in 9 years. :rofl:

[ringring]

Yeah, that 1 time in 9 years. :rofl:

Nooooo, more often. But you do have a point it was relatively rare if you had a sensible gal pilot and the route he/she flew avoided overflying enemy conflict zones, for example over the sea which we now can't do.

One thing we don't know, as mentinoed above, was this one of the game tweaks that was done to make the demo go better?

[MrBloodworth]

Yeah, that 1 time in 9 years. :rofl:

I can see this being true if you only played in the low population years. But this was not always the case. Galaxies regularly died before delivery.

Its also not the point, drop pods have no predators, unlike aircraft.

[Haro]

I can say, as a former Gal pilot, I don't think I ever got shot down, certainly not with a full complement. I think it will still be a go-to vehicle for transportation, because of terrain and the more flexible nature of the hex system. I could easily see galaxies flying around the front lines and either flanking the forces or undermining them behind the lines. I also think they said in the recent intro that the galaxy can hold 2 squads, which I'm excited about.

I think drop pods were way tuned up for the demo. I could see them limiting maxes, maybe even heavy assault, and it seemed like they gave it to more than just squad leaders. From what I understand, in the full game, it will be a cert that squad leaders need to equip instead of something else, so it won't be that common. At least that's what I heard.

I'm not overly concerned about this. There's no way to judge larger gameplay ideas like reinforcement flow and such from that demo, it was designed to the contrary for the sake of accessibility.

[PeteHMB]

I'm against an SOI. As previously stated, there are plenty of counters for any sort of semi-alert defensive forces; it's a tactic that's been around since WW2 as far as airborne drops (though hidden tunnels, caves, backdoors, etc have been around and utilized by armies for far longer); and I absolutely hated when they arbitrarily turned the SOI into a shield over the base that you couldn't even walk through. That was BS for a number of reasons. No SOI! Leave everything as open as it is now.

[MrBloodworth]

I'm against an SOI. As previously stated, there are plenty of counters for any sort of semi-alert defensive forces; it's a tactic that's been around since WW2 as far as airborne drops (though hidden tunnels, caves, backdoors, etc have been around and utilized by armies for far longer); and I absolutely hated when they arbitrarily turned the SOI into a shield over the base that you couldn't even walk through. That was BS for a number of reasons. No SOI! Leave everything as open as it is now.

"SOI" is not the Dome fields on Continental capitals.

[Raymac]

I can see this being true if you only played in the low population years. But this was not always the case. Galaxies regularly died before delivery.

Its also not the point, drop pods have no predators, unlike aircraft.

I've been playing since May 2003. Galaxies never "regularly died before delivery".

Also, I got plenty of kills of people just getting out of their drop pod, and I doubt I'm the only one who was their predator.

[KTNApollo]

What are these guys supposed to be dropping from?

Orbital stations, clearly. Same place we get OS from.

[Stardouser]

Orbital stations, clearly. Same place we get OS from.

Actually, that gives me an idea. Obviously some people want no squad spawning at all even near bases but that's an extreme that might not happen.

What if the spawn spawn rate is tied to the number of people per hex? ie, if there are 20 people in a hex, the timer is X, if there are 500 people in a hex, the timer is X + Y or any combination therein.

The reason I am saying is this because some people have stated that the purpose for long timers is to prevent zerging and bottlenecking; so when these things aren't a factor, they should affect the timers less.

The lore could justify it, ie, the orbital station can only fire 30 drop pods per minute, or whatever.

[Xyntech]

Actually, that gives me an idea. Obviously some people want no squad spawning at all even near bases but that's an extreme that might not happen.

What if the spawn spawn rate is tied to the number of people per hex? ie, if there are 20 people in a hex, the timer is X, if there are 500 people in a hex, the timer is X + Y or any combination therein.

The reason I am saying is this because some people have stated that the purpose for long timers is to prevent zerging and bottlenecking; so when these things aren't a factor, they should affect the timers less.

The lore could justify it, ie, the orbital station can only fire 30 drop pods per minute, or whatever.

So like every hex would have it's own timer? Like, I could squad spawn in a high population hex and then have to wait an hour to do it again, but I could immediately squad spawn on another squad mate in a low population hex, and then squad spawn a second time on him after only 20 minutes?

Because I'm not sure I understand how a variable spawn timer would work unless each hex had it's own timer for you.

I suppose there could also be a universal squad spawn timer, where you can never squad spawn more than once every x amount of minutes, no matter which hex you picked.

[PeteHMB]

"SOI" is not the Dome fields on Continental capitals.

Oh yeah. I stand corrected. Still. Didn't like ether one!

[GTGD]

I doubt you'll be able to HART onto a base like that in the release. It was probably just for the demo so you didn't see people running for a couple minutes and then getting instantly domed.

[Bags]

Maxes being able to drop pod on roofs of enemy bases is just silly.

[Raymac]

Maxes being able to drop pod on roofs of enemy bases is just silly.

Why? Wouldn't the squad leader need to be inside the base for this to happen? And if the squad leader is inside the base, doesn't that usually mean you have decent control of the area?

Sure you can have a cloaker sneak in and then have the squad drop, but that's not too different than a good gal drop as I've said earlier. Either way, it doesn't seem silly to me at all.

[EVILoHOMER]

I would have thought you can drop pod so close to the bases because SOE have set up a small scale demo to get people into the action and collect a lot of data on balance.

In the final game everything will be more spread out.

[The Kush]

Maxes being able to drop pod on roofs of enemy bases is just silly.

Agreed.

[Stardouser]

Sounds like a good start on giving this mythical orbital station some functional intelligence. Probably something that can be more evolved with some beta testing but not a bad start.

I found this in a Star Wars thing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v610/Ace_of_Spades25/Doomgiver4.jpg

For some reason the link to the article with the full description won't paste in here. Edit: It's on Wookieepedia too: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Doomgiver

Also, for the idea of drop podding MAXes being silly, in Star Wars AT-STs can drop pod(possibly AT-ATs as well). Inb4 "this isn't Star Wars", I'm only saying. And if the silly part was dropping "on rooftops", that may or may not be good for balance but it's certainly not "lore silly".

[GreatMazinkaise]

And if the silly part was dropping "on rooftops", that may or may not be good for balance but it's certainly not "lore silly".

It's silly for balance reasons... that's clearly what the argument is. If you want to drop on/in the base, you should either grab a Galaxy or the faction fighter + Light Assault and/or drop shield combo. If you want to do it in a MAX, the Gal's your only option.

[Stardouser]

It's silly for balance reasons... that's clearly what the argument is. If you want to drop on/in the base, you should either grab a Galaxy or the faction fighter + Light Assault and/or drop shield combo. If you want to do it in a MAX, the Gal's your only option.

People sometimes try to justify things based purely on lore, though. And I agree, we need to do things based on what's good for gameplay, not lore. But I'd sure love to see that be applied universally.

[Raymac]

It's silly for balance reasons... that's clearly what the argument is. If you want to drop on/in the base, you should either grab a Galaxy or the faction fighter + Light Assault and/or drop shield combo. If you want to do it in a MAX, the Gal's your only option.

Why? The only answer is that's how Planetside 1 did it. That doesn't automatically make a change in that silly.

Having an option, that has a cooldown mind you, to drop pod on your squad leader is a great way to keep squad cohesion. People here always trump up teamwork, and this directly supports teamwork.

Plus it's not like you magically appear indoors next to your squad leader. You have to drop pod in.

[Stardouser]

Why? The only answer is that's how Planetside 1 did it. That doesn't automatically make a change in that silly.

Having an option, that has a cooldown mind you, to drop pod on your squad leader is a great way to keep squad cohesion. People here always trump up teamwork, and this directly supports teamwork.

Plus it's not like you magically appear indoors next to your squad leader. You have to drop pod in.

I'm glad you mention cooldown. An automatically extreme cooldown seems, well, extreme. Throwing out a 120 second cooldown just because "OMG it's squad spawning" seems a bit premature. Honestly I think the cooldown should only be as much as it needs to be in order to not overwhelm defenders unfairly.

On that point, on paper, defenders seemingly have the advantage. Their spawn cooldowns are lower, they often have shorter to run to get in position, and now they have jump pads on top of all that. So why are defenders so disadvantaged? Are we assuming they will always be outnumbered and that justifies the restrictions on attackers?

[Immigrant]

Yes there should be some restriction like it should only be possible on the open ground. Dropping on buildings should get your pod crushed.

Also that thing they mentioned about pods being able to destroy aircraft without even a scratch. :rolleyes: something should happen but the only fair thing should be that both pod and aircraft get destroyed in collision.

[Ductape]

I never played ps1, So this is based on observations in other games and from the video seen.

I think that squad spawning should follow BF2142 in that you can pod in, but only at a certain location. Im not keen on seeing a ton of random pods dropping in all over the place during a base battle.

I would like to see it be something like a beacon grenade. you throw it down and it cant get destroyed, but shuts down after x mins or if an enemy gets within x meters for 30 seconds or so. As it is it will be cool for large spawns, but get irritating shortly.

I want to avoid sporadic drops but still allow for large drops to happen. For example, a galaxy filled with SLs disgorges behind enemy lines in a base and then squad members all drop on them to take the base very rapidly.

Another idea is to make it an item like the engineer tool. The SL is the only one that can have it, and they can take it out and use it to provide a signal for up to 30 seconds or so, with a 5-10 minute cooldown. While using this beacon tool, they cannot use a weapon. They can get reinforcements this way, but it will generally be a onetime thing once some squad members have died, or to get them there in the first place.

[Knightwyvern]

The way I see it, the devs are stressing that logistics is important, and so is being able to stay in the action. Those are kind of opposed to each other in a round about way, so you need a balance. So, squad spawning should have a hefty timer as well as limited areas in which it can be used. Perhaps you need to control a dropship center or equivalent in order to use it? Also we know that you cannot SS inside a facility, obviously. Seems pretty fair to me.

[Hamma]

Via IRC:

BREWKO: Drop Pod and Squad Spawning is all configured for E3, this is not how it's going to be in the final.

[GreatMazinkaise]

Why? The only answer is that's how Planetside 1 did it. That doesn't automatically make a change in that silly.

Having an option, that has a cooldown mind you, to drop pod on your squad leader is a great way to keep squad cohesion. People here always trump up teamwork, and this directly supports teamwork.

Plus it's not like you magically appear indoors next to your squad leader. You have to drop pod in.

Being able to routinely drop MAX units on rooftops IS silly, broken silly. They fulfill the same role as they did in the old game (siegebreakers) so the same rules still apply. There's a reason VS MAX jumpjets were removed.

[FPClark]

My biggest issue is what happens when you have an organised outfit who takes a gal full of 12 Squad leaders. Does a gal drop and then has each of the squad leaders squads spawn on them...Thats essentially like doing 12X6 gal drops with 1/6th the danger.

[Knightwyvern]

My biggest issue is what happens when you have an organised outfit who takes a gal full of 12 Squad leaders. Does a gal drop and then has each of the squad leaders squads spawn on them...Thats essentially like doing 12X6 gal drops with 1/6th the danger.

Danger isn't a huge issue considering you can just respawn. Also, if that one galaxy goes down before the drop, you can say bye bye to the whole op. Besides; the enemy can do the same thing. I think it would be pretty epic to see a bunch of drop pods flaming in.

I do like the idea of a SOI around bases where pods can't drop though. Bolsters the logistical aspect.

[OutlawDr]

They talked about secondary objectives. One could be to take out something that prevents enemy drop pods from coming in. A base can have multiple of these and each covers a certain area of the base.

[dsi]

I can't wait to see an SL infiltrator climb up to the top of a facility unseen and then have 9 maxes drop in around him. Do their testers have no imagination, or do they honestly think that's ok?


Actually FPClark has it even better, gal drop 12 SLs, suddenly you can drop in 108 maxes on top of the enemy base! I wonder how fast 120 players can backcap... :rofl:

[AshOck]

If you had a squad of 10 all certed in SS, could you just keep promoting someone else to squad leader and divide the timer by ten? :huh:

If so then perhaps the cool down should initiate once someone is promoted to effectively negate this.

[MrBloodworth]

Via IRC:

BREWKO: Drop Pod and Squad Spawning is all configured for E3, this is not how it's going to be in the final.

Great, thanks. I don't really have an issue with the system, but I do have a huge issue with the proximity to bases in witch it can be used.

[Xyntech]

If you had a squad of 10 all certed in SS, could you just keep promoting someone else to squad leader and divide the timer by ten? :huh:

If so then perhaps the cool down should initiate once someone is promoted to effectively negate this.

I'm pretty sure squad spawn timers are personal. So if you join a new squad or someone else becomes SL, but you squad spawned in the last 10 minutes, you still gotta wait.

[MrBloodworth]

Via IRC:

BREWKO: Drop Pod and Squad Spawning is all configured for E3, this is not how it's going to be in the final.


This is still a problem.

[Jeepo]

Is the time between squad spawning going to be 10 minutes or like 1? I have not seen it mentioned it anywhere.

[Karrade]

While this makes SL's very valuable, and promotes squad teamplay there has to be some middle ground.

I didn't like that they could deploy anywhere, roofs, behind buildings, over defenses, there were no defenses in this case. In already open bases, it just promotes chaos imho, for both sides.

Perhaps however once the enemy is in the base, its game over anyway, and you are supposed to pull out and regroup? A bit like many of the base defenses in PS1, once you are past a certain point, defending isn't always the way to go?

[Bravix]

Is the time between squad spawning going to be 10 minutes or like 1? I have not seen it mentioned it anywhere.

From Higby's more recent stream, it looked like 5 minutes at most.

[sunzen]

BREWKO: Drop Pod and Squad Spawning is all configured for E3, this is not how it's going to be in the final.

I hope it will change. Whats the point in defending the front door when they just spawn on the roof ? If they manage to fly in ok, this could happen, but just click on the map an basically get a free capture ? no way. spawning on enemy territory should not be allowed that way.

[Xyntech]

I wasn't the biggest fan of seeing drop pods landing willy nilly in the most recent footage, but it's a pretty easy thing to tweak in multiple ways.

How long the reset time is, adding something like a SOI system, restricting MAXes from coming in with a drop pod, etc.

I do think this could be a problem that I'd like to see get fixed, but this game is also going to have a pretty different dynamic to the first game in a lot of ways. We already know a few solutions to this problem, including SOI's, but we can't really know which solution will be the best until we see how it actually affects the game, and until we see what limitations the devs actually intend to put on it, since it's hard to say what is currently there for testing purposes and what elements they intend to keep.

The most we can do is discuss possible solutions to this potential issue.

I like the idea of using squad spawn as a replacement for the HART concept from the first game, but they could easily solve a lot of the problems with a less restrictive version of PS1's SOI system. For example, they could just limit it so that you couldn't drop in on any artificial structure of any kind. Force players pods to land on open terrain of some sort. That way, aircraft would still be the only way of getting non LA on top of buildings, and defenders wouldn't have to worry about drop podding people coming at them from totally unexpected areas. We'd no longer be able to predict exactly where the drop pods would come down, but we would know it would be somewhere in the open terrain. Outside of a base, even if it were only a few meters outside of it.

[MrBloodworth]

Extending the timer will not address the troop movement issue inherent in this system.

How it should be:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1725660/PS2/SOI.png

How it currently is:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1725660/PS2/NoSOI.png

[Deflagrate]

One of the best things I like about planetside is the "siege" fight that went on around a base, having to defend various points, trying to maintain control over courtyard and walls, watching the gates. At times the most heated battles over a contested facility required taking out the lattice link giving modules or a smart router pad deployment to break the stalemate, that's what made the game so fun.

I just hope that whichever mechanisms SOE picks for forward deployment that they preserve that type of combat.

One example where fragmentation really made a difference was a siege on a dropship center that had no shield module, troops could easily get in to the farther game without an issue and defenders would quickly lose the courtyard. Seeing as bases are more spread out in PlanetSide 2, the ability to move troops into a base discreetly and easily needs to be more limited.

[Stardouser]

I hope it will change. Whats the point in defending the front door when they just spawn on the roof ? If they manage to fly in ok, this could happen, but just click on the map an basically get a free capture ? no way. spawning on enemy territory should not be allowed that way.

That would be easy to fix, just don't use drop pods. And in anticipation of the "people spawning out of thin air next to the squad leader is stupid" objection, so are jump pads, endless soldiers running out of galaxies, and drop pods and orbital strikes coming from space when the orbital station isn't really there except in the lore.

With that said though, I don't think it's a free capture. Capture points don't seem to be on the rooftops, nor easier to access from the roof.

What they need to do is implement a SOI system within which you cannot squad spawn, but otherwise drop the nerfs on squad spawning. As long as there are no drop pods allowing you to exploit your way onto rooftops, and you can't squad spawn within 100 meters of a base perimeter, then there's no need to have long cooldowns on squad spawning.

[ringring]

I agree that the spawning into the middle of the base is a bit much, but remember that we don't know what the reuse timer on the squad spawn is. We know for a fact they intend it to be an occasional luxury rather than a reliable method of getting reinforcements on site. Section 8, while having a similar mechanic, had it as the only spawn method.


I'm thinking this really won't be much of an issue.

Personally I am thinking it will be abused. A couple of your guys are killed, so you wait until there are a few more, and then you all drop together on the roof of a facility.

If a timer is going to stop abuse it will have to be long ... 20-30 minutes.

The other thing that seemed to happen is after the 'dropee' landed he was active immediately. There was no vunerable period.

[Seagoon]

cant wait to put my 120 player gal drop plan into action...

[DarkChiron]

This is still a problem.

I agree I think spawning right on top of an enemy base seems kind of iffy in terms of destroying a defender's advantage. But maybe that's the point?

Like everyone loves to say around here, I'd have to see it in practice before I went around declaring this a game-breaking mechanic. Especially when the defenders can do the exact same thing, on top of having the closest respawn chambers.

From Higby's more recent stream, it looked like 5 minutes at most.

It seems so. He dies at 28:00 minutes in that stream and when he dies 2 minutes later he still has 3 minutes left before he can squad spawn again.

[MrBloodworth]

With that said though, I don't think it's a free capture. Capture points don't seem to be on the rooftops, nor easier to access from the roof.

I just linked you a free capture, read the OP. Also, no one will be putting a Galaxy right in the courtyard.

I agree I think spawning right on top of an enemy base seems kind of iffy in terms of destroying a defender's advantage. But maybe that's the point?

Like everyone loves to say around here, I'd have to see it in practice before I went around declaring this a game-breaking mechanic. Especially when the defenders can do the exact same thing, on top of having the closest respawn chambers.

It just turns the base battle into a death match, instead of an advancing front. Targets come from anywhere, no fronts, no holding the line. No troop movement or advancement.

One of the best things I like about planetside is the "siege" fight that went on around a base, having to defend various points, trying to maintain control over courtyard and walls, watching the gates. At times the most heated battles over a contested facility required taking out the lattice link giving modules or a smart router pad deployment to break the stalemate, that's what made the game so fun.

^ This.

[Stardouser]

I just linked you a free capture, read the OP. Also, no one will be putting a Galaxy right in the courtyard.



It just turns the base battle into a death match, instead of an advancing front. Targets come from anywhere, no fronts, no holding the line. No troop movement or advancement.

Then they should have been in the room defending it. The game is not out yet, so videos showing things like this have to be taken with a grain of salt; there are no organized outfits in there to plan things like that.

With that said, though, there's no real point in arguing this(the effectiveness of coming in through the roof), since I do agree with the idea of a sphere of influence within which there is no squad spawning to prevent getting on rooftops. The question that remains is why should there be a long cooldown on squad spawning if there's a sphere of influence? If the sphere of influence means you can't squad spawn within 100 meters of the base perimeter(and considering that some bases are huge, not being able to spawn anywhere within 100 meters of the perimeter makes for an overall BIG area), then why shouldn't it be something like 15 second respawn for galaxies/towers and 30 seconds for squad spawn?

[RSphil]

It would be worth noting that those folks we saw hotdropping directly into the base were spawning on squad. Not sure how I feel about that new feature for precisely the reasons you mentioned, because if you happened to have been a forward infil team and died, you could always spawn and come back as a heavy assault, stripping off your cloak and lack of shields for a heavy AR and higher survivability.

yup it was a squad spawn. but the cool down timer is huge. if you spawn in and die then it is a bit of a wait to do it again. its better then in other games where you can spawn on your squad all the time if the y are alive of course. also if the enemy team is communicating well they will see where the pod drops and eliminate the threat. after all it is a big ass fire ball falling from the sky. id say its even easier to see at night.
i dont see it being a problem but as with everything we shall have to wait and see.

also i think you have to cert for squad spawn. so there may be options in their. its a more realistic spawn method then appearing out of thin air aswell :)

[MrBloodworth]

i dont see it being a problem but as with everything we shall have to wait and see.

I can tell you right now.

It turns base capture into a zerg death match. Instead of a Siege. Mass on point, instead of breaking or defending the lines.

[Gammit10]

Agreed. You should never be able to drop inside an enemy's base from a drop pod (unless that's a Gal's new mechanic).

[RSphil]

ya can only drop in though if you a squad member inside. and from the look of it you have very little control. to me it is a nice big i am here sign for the enemy. but thats only my opinion. the proof is in the pudding as they say

[Xyntech]

I think timers would still be important for balancing squad spawning, regardless of the SOI issue. Otherwise, why deploy a Galaxy a safe distance away from a fight?

I'd say that the currently seen 5 minute squad spawn timer would be perfect for if there was a tiny SOI bubble around bases and towers. Just long enough that you are better off having a spawn point nearby in case you die too quickly.

But if there is no SOI, I'd accept having a 1 hour squad spawn timer (with the additional caveat of MAXes being unable to squad spawn) as an alternative. With a 1 hour timer, there is no way that squad spawning would ever be abused anywhere beyond just as a tactical insertion once an hour, which really would not be game breaking. At least as long as MAXes weren't getting dropped in.

But I'd prefer the small SOI with a 5 minute squad spawn timer option myself. At least until I get in beta and get a clearer first hand picture of how battles now flow.

[capiqu]

I want to be a squad leader, I dont want to be an ams. Thou I wouldn't mind being a squad leader with an ams that i could sneak into an soi

[Stardouser]

I think timers would still be important for balancing squad spawning, regardless of the SOI issue. Otherwise, why deploy a Galaxy a safe distance away from a fight?

I'd say that the currently seen 5 minute squad spawn timer would be perfect for if there was a tiny SOI bubble around bases and towers. Just long enough that you are better off having a spawn point nearby in case you die too quickly.

But if there is no SOI, I'd accept having a 1 hour squad spawn timer (with the additional caveat of MAXes being unable to squad spawn) as an alternative. With a 1 hour timer, there is no way that squad spawning would ever be abused anywhere beyond as a tactical insertion once an hour, which really would not be game breaking. At least as long as MAXes weren't getting dropped in.

But I'd prefer the small SOI with a 5 minute squad spawn timer option myself. At least until I get in beta and get a clearer first hand picture of how battles now flow.

30-45 seconds is more than enough for squad spawning. Considering how far back Galaxies are going to be, it's a bad idea to make it a 5 minute thing.

Also, SOE has made the decision to use drop pods. I really cannot consider dropping onto rooftops as an abuse. It changes the tactics required, that's all. Consider the rooftops when setting up your defense. And if it is an abuse, then they need to rethink drop pods as much as anything else, making the timer longer and longer is destructive to gameplay pacing. Especially when you consider that one of SOE's goals is to increase the pace.

[MrBloodworth]

30-45 seconds is more than enough for squad spawning. Considering how far back Galaxies are going to be, it's a bad idea to make it a 5 minute thing.

Also, SOE has made the decision to use drop pods. I really cannot consider dropping onto rooftops as an abuse. It changes the tactics required, that's all. Consider the rooftops when setting up your defense. And if it is an abuse, then they need to rethink drop pods as much as anything else, making the timer longer and longer is destructive to gameplay pacing.

It completely breaks the siege game-play of the title. Opting for the Session based death match/zerg of other titles. This is another area where they have tossed out the baby with the bathwater. Bases need an SOI. The router, Galaxy ( As a drop ship ) and Sunderer ( Line break ) are for back of front penetration.

[Stardouser]

It completely breaks the siege game-play of the title. Opting for the Session based death match/zerg of other titles. This is another area where they have tossed out the baby with the bathwater. Bases need an SOI. The router, Galaxy ( As a drop ship ) and Sunderer ( Line break ) are for back of front penetration.

If the squad spawn was 30 seconds with no SOI, I would agree with you. But since I'm agreeing with the idea of a sizable SOI at the same time as I suggest a shorter squad spawn timer, I think it covers it.

By the way, I could have sworn I read, or saw, Higby mentioning that there would be a SOI insofar as where you can place Galaxies. I don't know what else it will affect but there will be one in at least that way.

As for the siege gameplay of PS1, I spent at least 75 minutes last night charging a tower that had guys camping inside the door and at the top of first set of stairs(the AMS for this was sometimes right outside the door and sometimes 100-200m away). There were at least 15-20 of us doing it too. I can understand that going on for 15 minutes maybe, or maybe longer if a lot of defenders are in there, but we outnumbered them at least 2 to 1. I don't think this kind of gameplay would be successful for PS2. Not that this particular situation is relevant to squad spawning, but it is relevant to "siege" gameplay.

OH. And now that I think about it, we've mostly been talking about "bases", which I take to mean Amp Stations, Tech Plants, etc. Are towers going to have SOI? If not, people will drop pod onto those rooftops and it will be the same issue.

[Shade Millith]

For transporting you all the way from wherever you initiated the attack from. Also dropping you right in the middle of a base instead of trying to walk in. And more.

Consider these two options.

1) Get infiltration suit. Get Mossie/Reaver/Scythe for cheap. AB into the middle of enemy base, drop down. 10 people squad spawn ontop of you.

Fast, cheap and easy.

Or...

2) Get everyone to spawn. Spend the resource cost for a galaxy, after running all the way back for a landing pad big enough. Get everyone inside. Slowly, in a giant, fat, slow target with 'Shoot me for XP' on it, fly over the land until you arrive in base. Everyone in base knows that that big ship has lots of soldiers ready in it.

Slow, expensive and time consuming.

Why the hell would anyone choose number 2?

[capiqu]

scratch.

[sunzen]

Whatever way they choose for dropping and spawning I hope it will not affect the "storm the castle" feeling that I'm looking forward to :)

Personally, in this matter I would go for a slightly conservative option with SOI and a timer, not too long but still, I think it encourages to play more prudently.

[Marinealver]

Well they could put interceptor turrets like section 8 has against drops.

[Xyntech]

It completely breaks the siege game-play of the title. Opting for the Session based death match/zerg of other titles. This is another area where they have tossed out the baby with the bathwater. Bases need an SOI. The router, Galaxy ( As a drop ship ) and Sunderer ( Line break ) are for back of front penetration.

You're being too narrow minded about it. There are other ways of balancing it than just an SOI. I still think that a small SOI is the best solution for now with our current knowledge, but there are other viable options.

I'd like to see a lot of the siege elements from the first game make a return, but at the same time, a lot of the siege elements from the first game were pretty terrible. Infantry combat in the first Planetside was a joke, and it all came from the fact that bases and towers were almost the only place that infantry combat was viable, while base and tower layouts turned the entire thing into a bullshit spam fest. I'd rather get rid of siege warfare entirely before see a return of PS1's spamfest base fights.

But we already know that PS2's bases are more open and make for better infantry combat, so I don't see why there wouldn't be room for a fresh new version of siege warfare to exist in PS2. But it would definitely be a different style than in the first game, which again makes it difficult to predict exactly what will and won't work.

So my vote is in the small SOI camp until I have reason to think otherwise.

[MooK]

Consider these two options.

1) Get infiltration suit. Get Mossie/Reaver/Scythe for cheap. AB into the middle of enemy base, drop down. 10 people squad spawn ontop of you.

Fast, cheap and easy.

Or...

2) Get everyone to spawn. Spend the resource cost for a galaxy, after running all the way back for a landing pad big enough. Get everyone inside. Slowly, in a giant, fat, slow target with 'Shoot me for XP' on it, fly over the land until you arrive in base. Everyone in base knows that that big ship has lots of soldiers ready in it.

Slow, expensive and time consuming.

Why the hell would anyone choose number 2?

Mostly because #1 is unrealistic, #2 requires teamplay and that's really the point of this game. If I wanted to "solo" I wouldn't play an MMOG, I would play an MOG.

I think this game is too fast in certain ways, like attacking/defending a base. It should take some teamwork, some planning and some coordinated assault.

[Flaropri]

[Options]

Why the hell would anyone choose number 2?

Option 2 keeps your squad spawn intact to be used after you've dropped and keep a more sustained presence. Also, it isn't reliant on you getting killed first, and the Galaxy doubles as a forward spawning point even while your squad spawn is on cooldown.

[willaguy]

Last I checked you cant control the drop pod's movement, that was only for the E3 build.

[Flaropri]

Last I checked you cant control the drop pod's movement, that was only for the E3 build.

Higby's recent short stream seemed to show some minor control over drop pod trajectories, but it may have been random drift (unlikely considering where he landed). It's not the E3 build, but of course it doesn't mean that it will stay regardless.

[willaguy]

Higby's recent short stream seemed to show some minor control over drop pod trajectories, but it may have been random drift (unlikely considering where he landed). It's not the E3 build, but of course it doesn't mean that it will stay regardless.

Yeah, now I see what you're talking about.

[infected]

i'm curious how this works. as it seems overpowered in the footage we've seen so far. impossible to defend against.

since you can have 9 squad members drop in on your location, and i saw higby on twitch drop in on a squad member's "general area" and it placed higby right on the roof of the enemy capture point. 2 seconds later higby was taking the point with the defenders none the wiser... imagine if higby was accompanied by 9 other squad members.

i certainly think that the drop pod should be restricted in some way. i understand there will be a cooldown so it can't be reused repeatedly, but at this point, even one good coordinated drop seems imbalanced.

[Sifer2]

Well they could put interceptor turrets like section 8 has against drops.


That would work but it would largely negate squad spawn as a useful mechanic as well. I think that's why they allow it so close to bases currently is otherwise its not really that useful.

But I do agree that it definitely infringes on the role of the Sunderer. No one is really going to bother with that if its easier to drop pod into the base directly. Especially if even MAX's can use the pod which is entirely ridiculous, and should be removed immediately.

I do think one possible solution is making the Squad Leader its own class. Rather than letting Infiltrators or LA's be one. Then you could just aim for the SL's, and cut the drop pod problem off at its source.

[MrBloodworth]

With no SOI, there is no need for any support vehicles. Just drop on the base, by yourself, or with friends. Its weakens the siege game play, and waters down the role of all support vehicles, that were designed to break, or circumvent troop movements and front lines. This seems to have all come from session based shooters, and the overall design goal of never having any downtime. That's great for a session based game that reset after 30-one hour later, its terrible for a Persistent war game. Its a case of going to far to react to the issues of the previous title.

That would work but it would largely negate squad spawn as a useful mechanic as well.

This is incorrect, as proven by Section 8. The difference is someone had to go behind the defenses and disable the Denial system ( The turrets ).

However, due to the PS2 developers insistence on no automated systems, its unlikely to happen. SOI fixes it, and its a system that was not broken to begin with.

It could also be turned into another feature, Hacking to remove SOI for a duration. Again, the difference being, someone had to go do that, and its another tactical option. A much better option than every base being a spawn-FFA death-match, rather than a war game base siege.

[Stardouser]

With no SOI, there is no need for any support vehicles. Just drop on the base, by yourself, or with friends.

Its weakens the siege game play, and waters down the role of all support vehicles, that were designed to break, or circumvent troop movements and front lines.

This seems to have all come from session based shooters, and the overall design goal of never having any downtime. That's great for a session based game, its terrible for a Persistent war game.


Squad leaders can die, and do, and they can only spawn their squad, not their entire team. It doesn't negate the need for support vehicles.

And I'm pretty sure SOE has a goal of reducing downtime, so it fits perfectly.

Again, to be clear, you are arguing for a SOI, and I'm not disagreeing with it, I'm just arguing against squad spawning being overly nerfed in addition to SOI.

[Knightwyvern]

The thing I'm a little worried about is it seems currently there is the ability to spawn on all squad mates, not just the SL. This is a bad thing IMO.

[Stardouser]

The thing I'm a little worried about is it seems currently there is the ability to spawn on all squad mates, not just the SL. This is a bad thing IMO.

Yes, agreed. To those who are not experienced with squad spawning you might think it makes no difference and they are both bad, but after 3000 hours in BF2(squad leader only spawning), I can tell a marked difference in BC2 and BF3, which let you spawn on anyone in your squad. BF2 squads have to play carefully in case the leader dies, and with teamwork, BC2 and BF3 all you have to do is have one guy not die.

[infected]

Squad leaders can die, and do, and they can only spawn their squad, not their entire team. It doesn't negate the need for support vehicles.

And I'm pretty sure SOE has a goal of reducing downtime, so it fits perfectly.


forgive me if i'm wrong but the ps2 footage we've seen allows for you to drop in on any squad members. and thats 10 players per squad, which in fact does negate the point of transport vehicles, especially since they are being allowed to drop in inside of enemy territory.

i'd say that drop pods should be only used for gathering up outside of a base for a coordinated push, or allowed if inside a friendly base, but not be allowed dropping on top of an enemy base.

its ridiculous with the scope of this game. you will be unable to defend anything. as the number of squads, 10 player squads, that's just a ton of drops on an enemy base in a coordinated attack. it would be first used over transport vehicles, and only then when the ability is on cooldown will the vehicles become at all relevant.

because as of now, a small squad of 10, you could literally get one one guy in an atv to go approach a base from the side wall and jump jet over and order the squad to drop in.

now, imagine an outfit of 100 people, that filled up a transport vehicle with one member from each of 10 squads. say 10 people all in one galaxy or sunderer... once that vehicles gets to the capture point then the other 90 people in those squads just drop pod in on their squad mate? think it won't be done?

edit: this is the definition of cheese tactics. the game shouldn't allow drop pods inside (or on top of) base walls of enemy captured points. make the vehicles and real infantry transport come into play. drop in outside the base all you want, but not inside. and yeah, max units should not be able to use drop pods at all.

[T MAN]

Section 8 did this very well i thought, it had a soi that you could still spawn in but you would get killed by AA by the base AA or player built AA turrets. So you had to spawn outside soi to be safe.

Engineers could build AA turret that would also create a soi to keep bases or territory safe but only one could be built.

[Ertwin]

In Air Rivals, one of the planes had the ability to summon a squad member (basically squad spawning without having to die.) People organized spawn chains. Basically naming their squad `spawn here`people spawn then leave the squad. I can see that happening here.

However I have a solution that doesn`t involve spheres of influence. Simply make the squad spawn timer global for the SL. So if someone spawns, nobody else can spawn on that leader until the timer is up. It prevents abuse and drastically slows chain spawning without eliminating it as a tactic.

[Envenom]

Also bear in mind that you're a giant noisy beacon for every enemy player in the base to see when you drop. It's not exactly subtle, giving away your position and that of your squad. I don't really see it as much of a problem.

[Jeepo]

SL only would be the best. Personally I would prefer no squad spawn at all but am realistic enough to know thats probably not ideal.

[Stardouser]

forgive me if i'm wrong but the ps2 footage we've seen allows for you to drop in on any squad members. and thats 10 players per squad, which in fact does negate the point of transport vehicles, especially since they are being allowed to drop in inside of enemy territory.

i'd say that drop pods should be only used for gathering up outside of a base for a coordinated push, or allowed if inside a friendly base, but not be allowed dropping on top of an enemy base.

its ridiculous with the scope of this game. you will be unable to defend anything. as the number of squads, 10 player squads, that's just a ton of drops on an enemy base in a coordinated attack. it would be first used over transport vehicles, and only then when the ability is on cooldown will the vehicles become at all relevant.

because as of now, a small squad of 10, you could literally get one one guy in an atv to go approach a base from the side wall and jump jet over and order the squad to drop in.

now, imagine an outfit of 100 people, that filled up a transport vehicle with one member from each of 10 squads. say 10 people all in one galaxy or sunderer... once that vehicles gets to the capture point then the other 90 people in those squads just drop pod in on their squad mate? think it won't be done?

edit: this is the definition of cheese tactics. the game shouldn't allow drop pods inside (or on top of) base walls of enemy captured points. make the vehicles and real infantry transport come into play. drop in outside the base all you want, but not inside. and yeah, max units should not be able to use drop pods at all.

I am opposed to being able to spawn on any squad member. It should be leader only. And, once it is changed to leader only as it should be, and, regardless of whether it is, transport vehicles are not negated. Squads get wiped with high frequency even in BF2 and 3's 64 players, and with the huge scale of PS2's battles, it will happen even more. You have to have transport vehicles to get there in the first place, you have to have transport vehicles once the squad wipes, and frankly, a lot of people might choose to regroup at a vehicle spawn and take an armored transport into the base anyway even if their squad leader is still alive. Infantry attacking prepared defensive positions are a bit squishy sometimes.

That said, it is not abuse or cheese tactics to use drop pods to land on a roof. That boat sailed the day SOE chose to use drop pods, your issue is with drop pods, not squad spawning. Again, however, despite the fact that using drop pods to land on rooftops is not cheesy, I am agreeing with you all who want a sphere of influence to prevent it from being used that way. Not because it's cheesy, but because it's simply necessary for gameplay.

All I really am lobbying for is for squad spawning to be fully tested in beta, including at short cooldowns of 30 seconds. I am very concerned that SOE will allow the preconceptions of squad spawning being bad by people who aren't experienced with it to influence them to only even test it at huge cooldowns, and then we'll never know the truth of the matter. For my part, I am quite confident that if tested at 30 or 45 seconds, especially with a SOI in place to prevent dropping straight onto rooftops, and evaluated objectively instead of with blind hate for "OMG, he spawned on the squad without having to walk back 500 meters!", that it will work out fine. Objectively means people honestly answer the question "Is what I was afraid would happen with squad spawning really happening, or is it just keeping a persistent pace flowing?"

[The Kush]

Please put back SOI the game really needs it

[thegreekboy]

God damn it, is this another one of those things that we have to wait for beta to know for sure? Cut the hair already!

Someone needs to make a list of all the stuff we need to wait until beta to discuss :rolleyes:

[Shinjorai]

Didnt higby say in an interview something about the control points controlling various parts of the base and one of those was shields? Maybe thats what the shields are they block drop pods from being spawned in on rooftops etc. That would make sense too because it would give the infiltrators some other use and make the bases have actual defenses and make a little bit more sense. I dont have the source of what im talking about since ive only watched about a thousand interviews about this game but im pretty sure he did say something about base shields. Whether or not those have anything to do with preventing drop pods coming in i have no idea.


EDIT: Here it is i found it http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/02/23/planetside-2-war-story/ right at the top there under the EARLY BATTLE section.

"The shields are up, the turrets are back online so that the base isn’t completely defenseless."

[Synapse]

Someone needs to make a list of all the stuff we need to wait until beta to discuss :rolleyes:

I did. This is already on it.

:theMoreYouKnow:

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=42316

[Atheosim]

I'm honestly far more concerned with the design of the bases. Like OP said, they just look like deathmatch arenas and don't have proper chokepoints. I mean, let's take a look at the tech plant in PS1: There were effectively 4 places to defend: FD, BD, Air term, and V term. These bases look like they're impossible to defend but by creating choke points with walls of people.

[sunzen]

Didnt higby say in an interview something about the control points controlling various parts of the base and one of those was shields? Maybe thats what the shields are they block drop pods from being spawned in on rooftops etc

This would add a new perspective to the debate and I actually like it.

[Rivenshield]

I'm honestly far more concerned with the design of the bases. Like OP said, they just look like deathmatch arenas and don't have proper chokepoints.

Yeah. No doors, no SOI, etc. = no real way for a small resourceful group with their act squared away to stop a raging zergfest.

I'm pleased enough with what I see in the way of look and feel to wait until beta, though. Except for those God damned FACILITY DEFENDED/CAPTURED/WHATEVER popups every few seconds right in my fucking face. Even just watching the video on YouTube I felt like I was watching a cheap old 3D movie where they dangle shit right in front of your face because it's 3D LOL.

[That one noob]

What are these guys supposed to be dropping from?

From each of their respective battle barges, can you not see?
They are performing teh manuver stehl rehn.

[Synapse]

Yeah. No doors, no SOI, etc. = no real way for a small resourceful group with their act squared away to stop a raging zergfest.

I'm pleased enough with what I see in the way of look and feel to wait until beta, though. Except for those God damned FACILITY DEFENDED/CAPTURED/WHATEVER popups every few seconds right in my fucking face. Even just watching the video on YouTube I felt like I was watching a cheap old 3D movie where they dangle shit right in front of your face because it's 3D LOL.

You should really read one of the 12 threads already on that subject.

[twistnlick]

Yeah. No doors, no SOI, etc. = no real way for a small resourceful group with their act squared away to stop a raging zergfest.


They could try dynamic SOI's...based on the amount of "control points" taken... as more of the base is captured the SOI shrinks...

[OutlawDr]

Squad spawning used as "intended" in not a problem imo. It will mostly likely have 5min+ cooldown so it can not be used reliably over and over...and you need someone on the ground already there for it to be use it. However I do see it being able sidestep the need for galaxy drops by players coordinating all-in drops which is a problem. If there are SOI restrictions, it pretty much makes squad-spawing worthless for attackers, and defenders have the facilities to spawn from.... so I don't see that as a good solution.

Implement a progressive squad-wide cooldown for squad spawning. Something that allows it to be used as intended, but discourages all-in spawning.

For example, when a squad member drops within 30 seconds of the last guy, the game takes note. For each subsequent squad member that drops within 30 seconds of the last guys, a progressively longer cooldown time is incurred. The squads cooldown overrides the players individual cooldown, unless the players cooldown is longer.

So first guy drops...nothing happens
Second guys drops within 30 sec of first...game takes note..
Third guy drops within 30 sec of second...next guy must wait 10 seconds
Fourth guy drops within 30 of third...next guy waits 20 seconds
Fifth guy drops within 30 of fourth...next guy waits 30 seconds
After that everyone must wait at least 30 seconds

Once the "game takes note" the squad must wait around 3 minutes with no one dropping within 30 seconds of the last guy before it all resets again. Something like that. Not only does it make all in drops pretty much impossible, but punishes squads for dying a lot. A good squad won't even notice it though.

[MrBloodworth]

It was not useless before. But this system breaks the siege game play. Defenders always have the advantage in any engagement. That's war.

[Littleman]

A limit on the number of people capable of spawning on their squad leader should do nicely. 2 or 3, with each slot on it's own timer?

Longer cooldown timers would help too.

But this doesn't stop people from reaching places they normally wouldn't without a galaxy to get them there.

Then I remembered bases aren't the only thing we'll be fighting over in PS2, there are towers and bunkers with resources/hexes attached to them as well to fight over. An area of denial regarding drop pods around each base seems to be a good solution on top of capped drops and timers. Towers and bunkers might not be immune to drop pods, but at least a base won't have people raining down from its rafters or dropping on point C because their squad lead is hiding nearby.

But then, until we experience beta, we're probably making the issue sound far worse than it really is.

[Talek Krell]

Someone needs to make a list of all the stuff we need to wait until beta to discuss :rolleyes:I think we have one of those. It's called "Planetside 2 Discussion" :p

[infected]

snip
we'll have to see what changes. i'm not sure it will go back to being squad leader only. more likely they will allow you to spawn on any squadmate but with a 5? minute cooldown.

the problem with just squad leader being the only spawn point is its just too much burden on the position. the squad is 10 players, far more than a squad in bf2 when it worked. it worked great in bf2 because that he didn't have any other roles, it was session based, and small map/travel time in comparison to ps2. it just might not feel right in this world if squad leaders are expected to do other things.

ps2, where a squad leader will be expected to do many things that a bf2 squad leader could not. that's the bigger reason not to do this. surely SOE has many plans for certs for a squad leader with many roles in mind. well you can probably throw all those out the window if the burden of being the only spawn point is on the table.

just because bf2 squad spawn was less broken than bf3 squad spawning, doesn't mean it should be implemented in ps2, and doesn't mean bf3 type wouldn't be better in ps2 if given certain restrictions that you do not see in bf3 (like a cooldown).


oh, and as a side note, as for predicting ps2 vehicles relevance not being negated because drop pods, because "squads easily get wiped in bf3 in 64" player servers or whatever... well those maps are too small for 64 players. that is to say the obj's are too close together, and enemy respawns are too fast (and also extremely close since they also spawn on squad members as well), and 64 players is too much for those maps under those conditions, so that's why its hard to stay alive in that game.

if there was no cooldown in ps2 for spawning on squad leader then we would have the same problem here. 5 minute cooldown seems like something worth testing.

[SixShooter]

I'm fine with how it is now, makes it really important for a good amount of CE to be set up inside the base. I will note that the cool down timer needs to be way more than 120 seconds, more like 5 - 10 minutes would be much better.

I also noticed on the vid that it look that there were at least 3 choices to squad spawn from. Hopefully this was only due to dev magic because if not, that would mean that it's not confined to the squad leader which would be bad.
**edit**
I could be wrong about what i was seeing....

[vVRedOctoberVv]

I did notice the lack of doors, and the much more open environments. It DOES kind of feel more like a death match arena. I don't mind some of it being like this, but I think TOO open, for base interiors, is going too far the other way.

[thegreekboy]

I did. This is already on it.

:theMoreYouKnow:

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=42316

:cheers:

:wantbeta:

[fvdham]

I noticed that the PS2 drop pod has the same (fast) speed all the time,
while the PS1 drop pod slows down just before the touch down.

[DarkChiron]

I'm fine with how it is now, makes it really important for a good amount of CE to be set up inside the base. I will note that the cool down timer needs to be way more than 120 seconds, more like 5 - 10 minutes would be much better.

I also noticed on the vid that it look that there were at least 3 choices to squad spawn from. Hopefully this was only due to dev magic because if not, that would mean that it's not confined to the squad leader which would be bad.
**edit**
I could be wrong about what i was seeing....

Squad spawn CD is 5 minutes in that video. He squad spawns, dies 2 minutes later, then has a 3 minute CD still left on squad spawning again. It was around 28 minutes into that youtube video of his stream.

Those top 3 things on the list are all people in his squad. You can just squad spawn on whoever, I guess. I don't really care one way or the other on that.


I did notice the lack of doors, and the much more open environments. It DOES kind of feel more like a death match arena. I don't mind some of it being like this, but I think TOO open, for base interiors, is going too far the other way.

Biodomes with the latticework structure over them seem like they will not be wide open bases. In fact, they seem like a very closed off, multi-tiered base from the looks of it.

[thegreekboy]

I did notice the lack of doors, and the much more open environments. It DOES kind of feel more like a death match arena. I don't mind some of it being like this, but I think TOO open, for base interiors, is going too far the other way.

tbh I think its fine. from what I saw Zurvan Amp Station is a walled courtyard with scattered buildings around a large main building, which features both openness and corridor shoot-y action

[Pancake]

/signed

I don't want each base to be a COD map, where the focus is on killing and not tactically securing the area.

[Littleman]

tbh I think its fine. from what I saw Zurvan Amp Station is a walled courtyard with scattered buildings around a large main building, which features both openness and corridor shoot-y action

While, as DarkChiron mentioned, Biodomes are probably more confined, tiered spaces. Tech plants seem to have something of a large interior and a spacious roof top. It wouldn't strike me as surprising to find the bases are each designed to present a different feel in terms of combat.

[infected]

spawning on a squad member should be a rally point function, not a zerg function.

by that here is my example:
well damn they have a max at this gate, we just got wiped out. the rest of you fall back. shall we change approach? okay. call it. player x, start heading to new rally point. let's all spawn on player x next. change up tactics and hit a different objective or from another angle.


by zerg we mean:
battlefield.... omg i died, stay alive another 3 seconds so i can respawn right back in the same spot and kill that guy that got me.

this won't work in ps2 because there are so many players. death needs more of a penalty than a 3 second respawn that puts you back in the exact same location. it would be nothing but a clusterfuck respawn deathmatch (like bf3).

[OnexBigxHebrew]

/signed

I don't want each base to be a COD map, where the focus is on killing and not tactically securing the area.

God forbid there would be emphasis on killing in an FPS.

Lol :P

[DarkChiron]

spawning on a squad member should be a rally point function, not a zerg function.

by that here is my example:
well damn they have a max at this gate, we just got wiped out. the rest of you fall back. shall we change approach? okay. call it. player x, start heading to new rally point. let's all spawn on player x next. change up tactics and hit a different objective or from another angle.


by zerg we mean:
battlefield.... omg i died, stay alive another 3 seconds so i can respawn right back in the same spot and kill that guy that got me.

this won't work in ps2 because there are so many players. death needs more of a penalty than a 3 second respawn that puts you back in the exact same location. it would be nothing but a clusterfuck respawn deathmatch (like bf3).

I don't think from that video we can even attempt to say that would be the case.

[rreinke]

Instead of squad spawn cooldowns or all of that crap what about an area that extends the whole base that would stop squad spaawning from occuring inside the base so, to squad spwan the squad leader would have to go outside of the base or set down a galaxy to let fellow squadmates to spawn. This would also give the feeling of a front lines, not a cluster of people spawning everywhere.

[infected]

Instead of squad spawn cooldowns or all of that crap what about an area that extends the whole base that would stop squad spaawning from occuring inside the base so, to squad spwan the squad leader would have to go outside of the base or set down a galaxy to let fellow squadmates to spawn. This would also give the feeling of a front lines, not a cluster of people spawning everywhere.

but... the defending team can respawn in the base when they die, so there has to be a balance. its going to be hard to find.

[fod]

this idea of being able to drop right on top of a base is a bad idea imo
they should bring back the SOI system and not let anyone "drop" within it - doing this will also help balance out the squad spawning which i think is way too OP already

/signed

I don't want each base to be a COD map, where the focus is on killing and not tactically securing the area.
this is what i worry about also

[Charred]

but... the defending team can respawn in the base when they die, so there has to be a balance. its going to be hard to find.

Of course the defenders can spawn in the base... It's supposed to be harder for the attackers than the defenders, you know?

[Stardouser]

spawning on a squad member should be a rally point function, not a zerg function.

by that here is my example:
well damn they have a max at this gate, we just got wiped out. the rest of you fall back. shall we change approach? okay. call it. player x, start heading to new rally point. let's all spawn on player x next. change up tactics and hit a different objective or from another angle.


by zerg we mean:
battlefield.... omg i died, stay alive another 3 seconds so i can respawn right back in the same spot and kill that guy that got me.

this won't work in ps2 because there are so many players. death needs more of a penalty than a 3 second respawn that puts you back in the exact same location. it would be nothing but a clusterfuck respawn deathmatch (like bf3).

30 seconds is more than enough penalty. And a 5 minute one will destroy virtually any use of it at all, including rally point. I've been seeing just how slow PS1 can be, and PS2 looks to be a lot faster. 5 minute cooldown doesn't fit. I can't believe people complain about prone slowing the game, and some of them are the same people who complain about squad spawning being more prominent, wanting it to have huge cooldowns, knowing that the Galaxy walkbacks will cause the game to slow far more than prone would.

[Xyntech]

30 seconds is more than enough penalty. And a 5 minute one will destroy virtually any use of it at all, including rally point. I've been seeing just how slow PS1 can be, and PS2 looks to be a lot faster. 5 minute cooldown doesn't fit.

How is 30 seconds a penalty? That's barely enough time to get killed, unless you're getting spawn camped (less likely with unpredictable drop pod locations)

Let's say that the average lifespan is closer to the average lifespan in an arena shooter. In average (not getting spawn camped) gameplay, maybe you tend to last about a minute. That's 4 spawns where you have to pick somewhere other than squad spawning as an option.

Since they have already suggested that squad spawning is not intended to be the primary method of spawning, then I'd say the potential of 1 out of 5 spawns on average being able to be a squad spawn seems pretty fair.

Galaxies can't be useless as spawn points, and reviving has to have value. 5 minutes seems like a pretty good compromise. Organized squads will hold off on squad spawning until all members have their squad spawn up, which will never take more than a few minutes anyways, especially if they are organized enough to all know not to abuse squad spawning with individual drops in the first place. Less organized squads will probably rarely use a mass spawning to rally together in the first place, so it's fine if they just scatter shot in every few minutes.

But all of this is contingent on players being prevented from dropping right into the middle of an enemy facility. If players can just drop on top of any enemy facility like they currently can, then I think an hour timer would be appropriate. Squad spawning would then be only useful for two things:

1) Getting into battle when you first log in (akin to using the HART shuttle in the first Planetside).

2) The occasional (very rare) tactical insertion of a well organized group of players.

Frankly I'd be happy with either longer timers and no SOI or 5 minute timers and a small SOI (or another equally balanced option), but if squad spawning has a 30 second timer than it will always be a viable option to spawn in with and there will be very little reason to make use of Galaxies or medic revives.

So based on their own words, that squad spawning is not meant to be a primary spawn method, 30 second timers is just flat out not going to happen, and personally I think that is for the best.

[Shade Millith]

but... the defending team can respawn in the base when they die, so there has to be a balance. its going to be hard to find.

So the defenders home advantage boils down to... an extra spawn point in a death match arena?

That's pretty pitiful.

Mostly because #1 is unrealistic, #2 requires teamplay and that's really the point of this game. If I wanted to "solo" I wouldn't play an MMOG, I would play an MOG.

I think this game is too fast in certain ways, like attacking/defending a base. It should take some teamwork, some planning and some coordinated assault.

I think you missed my point. If it's left how it is now, with no SOI, then why would people use a galaxy.

I want to prevent number 1 from happening. It's far, FAR too easy.

[Stardouser]

How is 30 seconds a penalty? That's barely enough time to get killed, unless you're getting spawn camped (less likely with unpredictable drop pod locations)

Since they have already suggested that squad spawning is not intended to be the primary method of spawning, then I'd say the potential of 1 out of 5 spawns on average seems pretty fair.

And my entire point has been that it's wrong to be biased against squad spawning being the primary respawn method. Especially since they can't possibly have tested it in a full 2000 player server condition yet. It's bad enough players are automatically biased and preconceived against it without testing, it's all the more bad when the professionals, SOE, are either biased against it themselves, or are caving in to who are.


Frankly I'd be happy with either longer timers and no SOI or 5 minute timers and a small SOI (or another equally balanced option), but if squad spawning has a 30 second timer than it will always be a viable option to spawn in with and there will be very little reason to make use of Galaxies or medic revives.


30 seconds is a long time to be dead in a fast paced game. Revives will still be valuable, and so will Galaxy spawning. Hell, revives are valuable in Battlefield even with 15 second respawns. And walking back from a Galaxy that's been placed 500 meters away is going to drive away players if it's the primary respawn method. There's music to be faced, this game is going to be paced faster, and things like this that would fit more with PS1's pace don't make sense. In fact, the more I play PS1(and I have been playing it more lately with the 30 free days), the more I realize just how slow it can be. And I think too many people are looking at these things with PS1's pace in mind. Soldiers run pretty slow even holstered, for example. But based on the videos, things are going to speed up a lot in PS2, and it just doesn't work to have a 5 minute cooldown on things like this. It just doesn't fit or make sense.
I truly get the feeling that a lot of you don't have experience with playing squad spawning games if you think 30 seconds is not enough time for the squad leader to get killed. If this were PS1, you might be right; but it isn't, and I can tell that players are going to be enabled to play a LOT differently. Aggressive play to blitz and kill squad leaders is going to be possible where it wasn't in PS1. And you guys keep citing problems with drop pods, I've already said, drop pods are the problem, NOT squad spawning.

None of these objections to squad spawning being more prominent are anything but unproven preconceptions until the game is tested properly. Bottom line: SOE, allow this to be fully tested and prove who is right. If you're right, you will be proven right in Beta. And if you're wrong, wouldn't you like to find that out in Beta before players are driven away?

[infected]

30 seconds is more than enough penalty. And a 5 minute one will destroy virtually any use of it at all, including rally point. I've been seeing just how slow PS1 can be, and PS2 looks to be a lot faster. 5 minute cooldown doesn't fit. I can't believe people complain about prone slowing the game, and some of them are the same people who complain about squad spawning being more prominent, wanting it to have huge cooldowns, knowing that the Galaxy walkbacks will cause the game to slow far more than prone would.

i agree there is no reason prone shouldn't be in this game, but as far as 5 minute drop pod cooldown, you have to realize that that's 10 squadmates respawning, not just 1. if you're a lone wolf and you die a lot, yeah that 5 minutes might seem tough, but then you're playing the game wrong. if it were any lower than 5 minutes then we would basically have no use for vehicles or carefully placed/defended galaxy spawns.

edit:
for reference: if you do not have a medic nearby, or if you tend to die alot... 5 minutes will force you to spawn somewhere other than your squad at about 50% of the time. by the time you die the 2nd time your 5 minutes should be up.

if you die 3 times and that 5 minutes hasn't expired yet... you're doing it wrong. time to rethink your decisions.

[fod]

I truly get the feeling that a lot of you don't have experience with playing squad spawning games if you think 30 seconds is not enough time for the squad leader to get killed. And you guys keep citing problems with drop pods, I've already said, drop pods are the problem, NOT squad spawning.


i can say as a bf vet that i ALLWAYS though squad spawning was a bad idea in all the battlefield games (especially bf3 and bfbc2 where you can spawn on anyone)

it makes it too easy for attackers to attack because all they need is to get one person at the flag/base for there to be the whole squad to "pop up" there

imo making squad spawning not work within a bases soi would be a good way to balance it

[Stardouser]

i agree there is no reason prone shouldn't be in this game, but as far as 5 minute drop pod cooldown, you have to realize that that's 10 squadmates respawning, not just 1. if it were any lower than 5 minutes then we would basically have no use for vehicles or carefully placed/defended galaxy spawns.

As I said above, the game is a lot faster paced and will allow for aggressive play by defenders. Squad leaders will be dying a lot and that means spawning back at the galaxy. As for no use for vehicles, that's different. It will always be necessary to take a vehicle to the battle in the first place(or else walk 2 miles), but since vehicles can't spawn from the deployed Galaxy, THAT is what will curtail vehicle usage. Who is going to constantly respawn back at vehicle towers or main bases to pull vehicles every time they die except dedicated tank drivers or aircraft pilots? Infantry players will respawn at the Galaxy, and, I've been playing PS1 a lot lately, and despite the upsurge in population, I don't see people bringing Galaxies or jugg/deliver/etc to the front line to ferry people from towers/AMSs to the battle. And since they are not doing that, how does squad spawning stabilizing the pace for infantry players make vehicles less useful?

i can say as a bf vet that i ALLWAYS though squad spawning was a bad idea in all the battlefield games (especially bf3 and bfbc2 where you can spawn on anyone)

it makes it too easy for attackers to attack because all they need is to get one person at the flag/base for there to be the whole squad to "pop up" there

imo making squad spawning not work within a bases soi would be a good way to balance it

Yes, the SOI idea would make it work. Long cooldown however is destructive. With that said though, in BF2, I have always observed that, the squad leader being the only one who can let people spawn, the good SLs ALWAYS hangs back a bit because if he doesn't, he dies, and everyone walks back(Funny enough, this long walkback is going to happen by default in PS2 due to the 5 minute cooldown on squad spawning.). Although at the same time, I've never seen the "whole squad pop up there" be overpowered. I just haven't. But there's an additional reason for that, too : BF flags have a 2 tiered capture process- first they go neutral, then they turn to the other side. That often gives enough warning to come in and wipe the flag.

[infected]

i can say as a bf vet that i ALLWAYS though squad spawning was a bad idea in all the battlefield games (especially bf3 and bfbc2 where you can spawn on anyone)

it makes it too easy for attackers to attack because all they need is to get one person at the flag/base for there to be the whole squad to "pop up" there

imo making squad spawning not work within a bases soi would be a good way to balance it

agreed. it is a lazy design.

and in ps2 it will be very easily and heavily exploited. as i described: get a 100 person outfit to fill a single sunderer or galaxy up with 10/100. each of those 10 in the vehicle are in separate squads of 10. then when they get to where they want to deploy the other 90 hit the deploy button and everyone drops in and 10 becomes 100. at that point it doesn't even matter if there's a 5 minute cooldown on the ability. how are you going to defend against that? that's why there needs to be a soi so drop pods don't become the cheese tactic, making the game a zerg joke.

[Shade Millith]

And my entire point has been that it's wrong to be biased against squad spawning being the primary respawn method. Especially since they can't possibly have tested it in a full 2000 player server condition yet. It's bad enough players are automatically biased and preconceived against it without testing, it's all the more bad when the professionals, SOE, are either biased against it themselves, or are caving in to who are.

As someone who played PS1 for a long time, I can tell you right now, PS1 would have been terrible if you could spawn ontop of an enemy base.

It would have completely negate the courtyard defense.

There's a reason 12-24 man galaxy drops were dangerous, because they could bypass so many defenses. But they were balanced by the fact that you had forewarning it was coming. The stonking massive ship slowly making it's way over the base. They took time and effort to setup.

Squad spawning does NOT take time and effort. It is something that can be done easily, and completely negates the need for the galaxy as a troop transport.

Already the maps are designed to be COD run and gun fests. We don't need to take this further into negating the home advantage.


And as a BF2-3 organized clan player, I can tell you it WILL be abused in this fashion. Hell, nearly every strategy revolved around using squad spawning.

[MonsterBone]

Wazza

[Stardouser]

agreed. it is a lazy design.

and in ps2 it will be very easily and heavily exploited. as i described: get a 100 person outfit to fill a single sunderer or galaxy up with 10/100. each of those 10 in the vehicle are in separate squads of 10. then when they get to where they want to deploy the other 90 hit the deploy button and everyone drops in and 10 becomes 100. at that point it doesn't even matter if there's a 5 minute cooldown on the ability. how are you going to defend against that? that's why there needs to be a soi so drop pods don't become the cheese tactic, making the game a zerg joke.

If you can't defend against 1 galaxy with 12 guys in it, how are you going to defend against 10 galaxies with a total of 120? Funny you talk about zerging when what you're suggesting fits the definition of zerg even more closely.


There's a reason 12-24 man galaxy drops were dangerous, because they could bypass so many defenses. But they were balanced by the fact that you had forewarning it was coming. The stonking massive ship slowly making it's way over the base. They took time and effort to setup.


Exactly what kind of time frames are we talking about here? Just how long does it take a Galaxy to fly from a warpgate to a base? I can't believe it takes long enough to actually give sufficient warning to set up a defense, especially since you don't know exactly where it's going.



And as a BF2-3 organized clan player, I can tell you it WILL be abused in this fashion. Hell, nearly every strategy revolved around using squad spawning.

My experience is BF2 is that the best way to take a flag is to drive in with multiple vehicles, simultaneously, to cover the spawn points while you turn the flag ownership over, otherwise you get blasted by defenders coming out of the woodwork. Once you get your vehicles shot out from under you, or if you didn't bring any, you're going to have a bit of a bad time.

Of course, my biggest BF2 map was mashtuur, where the more important flags were the gas stations, and double blocking the spawns with vodniks was pretty much standard, if you didn't do it, squad spawning will just cause you to die to the defenders a lot before you get wiped.

[infected]

If you can't defend against 1 galaxy with 12 guys in it, how are you going to defend against 10 galaxies with a total of 120? Funny you talk about zerging when what you're suggesting fits the definition of zerg even more closely.


dude. a galaxy is not supposed to hold 100 people. that's the point. with this exploit, you can effectively turn 1 galaxy into a 100+ man army. that is fucked up.

the point is 10 galaxies coming in very slowly is something you can see approaching (and the galaxies cost resources to spawn).

opposed to a single exploit galaxy with 10 members from 10 different squads ready and waiting to call in 100 more troopers from the drop pod menu... that is free and can be done every 5 minutes. that's broken. period.

if you don't think this will be the most used tactic in all the big outfits, you don't know much about competitive video gamers.

[Stardouser]

dude. a galaxy is not supposed to hold 100 people. that's the point. with this exploit, you can effectively turn 1 galaxy into a 100+ man army. that is fucked up.

the point is 10 galaxies coming in very slowly is something you can see approaching (and the galaxies cost resources to spawn).

opposed to a single exploit galaxy with 10 members from 10 different squads ready and waiting to call in 100 more troopers from the drop pod menu... that is free and can be done every 5 minutes. that's broken. period.

if you don't think this will be the most used tactic in all the big outfits, you don't know much about competitive video gamers.

What I'm saying is, if your defensive force is so small that they can't shoot down one Galaxy, what are you going to do against 10?

And remember, I am NOT in any way arguing against a sphere of influence that will prevent what you are talking about. If you want the SOI to prevent people from doing this and forcing them to all spawn 100 meters or more away outside the base and get picked off as they walk in, that's fine with me. Everything I have been saying has been about the cooldown, I am not fighting you on the SOI idea.

[Karrade]

Squad spawning anywhere (especially close to control points) as it stands penalises anyone defending. You might as well move to attacking, in the open layouts, with easy spawning, they look very difficult to defend. We might as well call it what it is, easy/chaotic spawning.

I am speaking about organised outfits, leave a few people to mop up control points, and the rest, would you honestly not hit an open target (which is what every base is) - with an easy spawn to get right next to their CC any time a SL lives long enough to make it that far?

Why bother leaving good bodies behind to defend, beyond a few to make their life difficult. - I am not speaking about the zerg that will be behind anyway, I am speaking about the organised/skilled players, who will be better of working to what the game promotes - attacking.

Now, attacking is fine, as long as people realise that is what this set up promotes, defending appears (in the current base layouts + respawning anywhere as we've seen) largely pointless if the enemy get in the actual base itself. - Again I am not speaking about the zerg that will be where the zerg will be (which SOE have catered for well), I am speaking as a player who will be in an outfit that plays to the games strengths shown in organised play.

Whoever suggested highlighting the SL, I agree, he should be very visible via the hud, so ppl know who to take out.

[infected]

Of course the defenders can spawn in the base... It's supposed to be harder for the attackers than the defenders, you know?

well, as i can see the design of that zevran amp station in higby's twitch video, that "base" has 6 objectives. 3 of which are outside the walls. these 3 outside are effectively free spawn points for assaulters because they will be far easier to capture. this will put the defenders in a fallback position behind the walls to defend the remaining 3 flags. then they have to defend from all sides, the 3 outer flags are all good spawn points for attackers to launch base of operations and vehicles spawns, and max units.

so yeah, the travel time won't be as much as you think. think how quickly and closely the spawn points were for assault in the e3 footage. this is the same thing. very close and fast. the e3 footage had a base wit 3 objectives and 3 assault spawnpoints, effectively the same layout and distance as 6 total points in higby's footage.


And remember, I am NOT in any way arguing against a sphere of influence that will prevent what you are talking about. If you want the SOI to prevent people from doing this and forcing them to all spawn 100 meters or more away outside the base and get picked off as they walk in, that's fine with me. Everything I have been saying has been about the cooldown, I am not fighting you on the SOI idea.

well then here's the point you don't quite get. if the soi is 100 meters, and the closest assault spawn point is 100 meters, then why do you want to spawn on your squad if they are both the same distance out from the base?

[Stardouser]

Whoever suggested highlighting the SL, I agree, he should be very visible via the hud, so ppl know who to take out.

BF3 does this and it's an unacceptable casualization. You talk about squad spawning being easy but then suggest something like that to make it easy for the other team? And how are you going to balance such an easy mode casualization as this? Just by being the squad leader you walk around with a 3D spot on you?


well then here's the point you don't quite get. if the soi is 100 meters, and the closest assault spawn point is 100 meters, then why do you want to spawn on your squad if they are both the same distance out from the base?

Is every battle going to be a base siege? Some will take place away from bases.

Also, what in the world makes you think the galaxies are going to be deployed only 100 meters away? 100 meters is a long run for infantry(especially when you consider that that's 100 meters just to break the plane of the base f perimeter) but it's well within range of the base's turrets to blow your galaxy away. I rather think Galaxies are more likely to placed considerably further away than that.

[Karrade]

BF3 does this and it's an unacceptable casualization. You talk about squad spawning being easy but then suggest something like that to make it easy for the other team? And how are you going to balance such an easy mode casualization as this? Just by being the squad leader you walk around with a 3D spot on you?

Yes, otherwise with no SOI the squad spawn system makes attacking far too favorable for balanced play.

There is no need to balance it for the other (defending) team, defending is already unbalanced against their favour via the open layouts, where you can spawn anywhere.

Given even a very basic tactical understanding, surely you can see defending is largely hindered having an open base, + the ability to spawn anywhere within it, this is surely common sense? So the question becomes, would you commit time and effort to defend, or would you commit time and effort to attack such an open setup.

Remember you only need to get ONE SL in range.

[infected]

let's just wait for the beta. get a few 1000 players in there to put these features or lack thereof to the test and the feedback will be overwhelming if something is just breaking the flow of the game.

personally i predict that defending bases will be absolutely impossible (just like it was impossible to hold them at e3) until some major changes are put in effect.

[Stardouser]

Yes, otherwise with no SOI the squad spawn system makes attacking far too favorable for balanced play.

There is no need to balance it for the other team, defending is already unbalanced via the open layouts, where you can spawn anywhere.

Given even a very basic tactical understanding, surely you can see defending is largely hindered having an open base, + the ability to spawn anywhere within it, this is surely common sense? So the question becomes, would you commit time and effort to defend, or would you commit time and effort to attack such an open setup.

I see a lot of people talking about defending being unbalanced. Frankly, I think it's inappropriate to try and boil that down to just squad spawning, as if that were the only factor affecting matters on either side. Defenders are going to get their own advantages, including stupid jump pads.

And if you are really suggesting that squad leaders should run around with a permanent 3D spot, I don't even know what to say about something so crazy. This game isn't going to all about base sieges you know, you're going to see squads coming with no hope for stealth in the entire 64 square kilometers of the map.

let's just wait for the beta. get a few 1000 players in there to put these features or lack thereof to the test and the feedback will be overwhelming if something is just breaking the flow of the game.

personally i predict that defending bases will be absolutely impossible (just like it was impossible to hold them at e3) until some major changes are put in effect.

Since so many people are talking about how hard it will be to defend bases, I hope the first thing anyone does when beta gets to this point, is perform an objective analysis of defender vs attacker pros and cons. Trying to make a blanket statement that squad spawning, all by itself, makes defense pointless, seems like too much of a sweeping generalization.

[Karrade]

let's just wait for the beta. get a few 1000 players in there to put these features or lack thereof to the test and the feedback will be overwhelming if something is just breaking the flow of the game.

personally i predict that defending bases will be absolutely impossible (just like it was impossible to hold them at e3) until some major changes are put in effect.

This will be likely but be MUCH more likely when an outfit plays to the strengths and attacks, will outfits be in the beta?

I see a lot of people talking about defending being unbalanced. Frankly, I think it's inappropriate to try and boil that down to just squad spawning, as if that were the only factor affecting matters on either side. Defenders are going to get their own advantages, including stupid jump pads.

And if you are really suggesting that squad leaders should run around with a permanent 3D spot, I don't even know what to say about something so crazy. This game isn't going to all about base sieges you know, you're going to see squads coming with no hope for stealth in the entire 64 square kilometers of the map.

I didn't just quote that, I quoted open layouts many times.

No you are not, that is the point, if you are an outfit, you are going to do all you can to get that SL in range of capping. Sure the map sounds fun but when the novelty wears off, you'll see people heading for the base all the time!

With SOI you can't do that, without you can - simple!

-edit

SL's will be the new infils!
Cloakers that can spawn people anywhere (I hope that has been nerfed already ;) )

[Littleman]

Thing is... I think they WANT bases (and towers, and bunkers) to fall to attackers. It keeps the battle lines moving, making the changing of territories dynamic. If one side focuses on defense, they're going to crumble when the smallest break in their line gives their enemies that 30 second to 5 minute window to get a hack through.

In this instance, the best defense really is the best offense!

[Karrade]

Thing is... I think they WANT bases (and towers, and bunkers) to fall to attackers. It keeps the battle lines moving, making the changing of territories dynamic. If one side focuses on defense, they're going to crumble when the smallest break in their line gives their enemies that 30 second to 5 minute window to get a hack through.

In this instance, the best defense really is the best offense!

I agree but with no SOI and if there is little consideration of spawn on SL's combined, the lines won't matter, you'll have cloakers in the air, constantly, trying to bee line for the base bypassing any lines that might have been there in the first place.

What better class for a SL than a cloaker? What better vehicle for an SL than a pilot (or okay fast vehicle same diff). Perhaps this is the new spec ops for PS2? I predict here and now infil will be a common SL class in outfits :)

[Xyntech]

And my entire point has been that it's wrong to be biased against squad spawning being the primary respawn method. Especially since they can't possibly have tested it in a full 2000 player server condition yet. It's bad enough players are automatically biased and preconceived against it without testing, it's all the more bad when the professionals, SOE, are either biased against it themselves, or are caving in to who are.

It's not about being biased against squad spawning. It has everything to do with making sure that a single spawn method doesn't negate the value of every other spawn method.

If I can squad spawn in once every 30 seconds, I would have no reason to ever spawn at a Galaxy, and very little reason to even get revived.

If you are advocating a new gameplay dynamic where they completely get rid of Galaxy spawn points, and treat medics revive abilities as terribly as they were treated in PS1, then that's another matter entirely. I'd completely disagree with your mad scientist notions, but at least you would have a legitimate (albeit controversial) take on the matter. But as long as we are operating within the assumption that Galaxies and revivals are meant to be core gameplay mechanics that will have a lot of value to players, squad spawning can never be allowed to be overpowered.

Beta will be important to determine a lot of things, but I don't need beta to understand that the current squad spawning method is objectively better than a lot of other spawn methods in a majority of offensive situations.


30 seconds is a long time to be dead in a fast paced game. Revives will still be valuable, and so will Galaxy spawning. Hell, revives are valuable in Battlefield even with 15 second respawns. And walking back from a Galaxy that's been placed 500 meters away is going to drive away players if it's the primary respawn method. There's music to be faced, this game is going to be paced faster, and things like this that would fit more with PS1's pace don't make sense. In fact, the more I play PS1(and I have been playing it more lately with the 30 free days), the more I realize just how slow it can be. And I think too many people are looking at these things with PS1's pace in mind. Soldiers run pretty slow even holstered, for example. But based on the videos, things are going to speed up a lot in PS2, and it just doesn't work to have a 5 minute cooldown on things like this. It just doesn't fit or make sense.
I truly get the feeling that a lot of you don't have experience with playing squad spawning games if you think 30 seconds is not enough time for the squad leader to get killed. If this were PS1, you might be right; but it isn't, and I can tell that players are going to be enabled to play a LOT differently. Aggressive play to blitz and kill squad leaders is going to be possible where it wasn't in PS1. And you guys keep citing problems with drop pods, I've already said, drop pods are the problem, NOT squad spawning.

None of these objections to squad spawning being more prominent are anything but unproven preconceptions until the game is tested properly. Bottom line: SOE, allow this to be fully tested and prove who is right. If you're right, you will be proven right in Beta. And if you're wrong, wouldn't you like to find that out in Beta before players are driven away?

Jesus, nobody is talking about having to sit around in a death screen waiting for 5 minutes before you are allowed to respawn. Th 5 minute squad spawn timer is on a clock that starts counting down again the moment you squad spawn in.

If it were on a 30 second timer as you suggest, you would literally have to die within 30 seconds of leaving your drop pod (assuming it doesn't start counting down before that) to be unable to squad spawn in again, and at that point you could probably just wait out the last few seconds and squad spawn in anyways.

I get what you are saying about PS1 being dreadfully slow at times and PS2 speeding things up in a lot of important areas, and I'm in total agreement with that. But what you are talking about is making squad spawning be the only viable spawn method.

If the Galaxy is too far away, maybe you aught to move it closer. If it's too dangerous to move it closer at the moment, maybe you should be focusing more on securing the area rather than trying to push in further without a proper footing.

As for beta, currently the squad spawn is on a 5 minute cool down timer. I'd say that in this instance, it's you who need to see how it plays out in beta before making wild claims about it's limitations ruining the pace of the game.

I'm happy to change my tune as more information and play testing proves who's right and who's wrong, but I guarantee you that squad spawning will never be on a 30 second timer in the standard released version of Planetside 2.

[Stardouser]

This is becoming a duck season/rabbit season argument, but there are two things that need to be clarified:

1. Galaxy use will be less if squad spawning was more prominent. I have never denied that it wouldn't be less. However, "negation" implies reduced to zero, not "made less". Every time someone says something will be negated, they are literally saying it will be reduced to zero(or, made completely worthless). Let's be frank, that's an exaggeration.


Beta will be important to determine a lot of things, but I don't need beta to understand that the current squad spawning method is objectively better than a lot of other spawn methods in a majority of offensive situations.


2. Objectivity. The definition of objectivity is "not influenced by personal feelings/tastes/etc" and the definition of subjectivity is "influenced by personal feelings/taste/etc". Can you honestly say that when you say the use of Galaxies should not be made less, that that is not influenced by your personal feelings or taste?

[Karrade]

2. Objectivity. The definition of objectivity is "not influenced by personal feelings/tastes/etc" and the definition of subjectivity is "influenced by personal feelings/taste/etc". Can you honestly say that when you say the use of Galaxies should not be made less, that that is not influenced by your personal feelings or taste?



Everything in life is perspective/relative to the viewer/projector running it. - It doesn't diminish the points made.

[Stardouser]

Everything in life is perspective/relative to the viewer/projector running it. - It doesn't diminish the points made.

Right, but the reason this matters is that you can't "win" a discussion of a subjective matter, with limited exceptions(such as if you point out something that the other player was not considering or did not know).

[Karrade]

Right, but the reason this matters is that you can't "win" a discussion of a subjective matter, with limited exceptions(such as if you point out something that the other player was not considering or did not know).

You can only win something if you reach a condition whereby you say you've won. :) Your 'win' could be to record a personal best, win a gold medal or it could be to remember to shower before you go to work. Win isn't a real concept, its defined by whoever sets the standards for winning (for you), same as weird/excellent/nice/good/crazy/bad etc, etc.

[Nemises]

not sure if this has been mentioned (had to speed read thread, am at work)...

- I imagine squad spawning is a CERT (ie. being able to be spawned on).

If that is the case, then if your squad has multiple CR5's (or whatever level its certable at) , the the squad would be able to spawn at either CR5..

This actually sort of fits in with the way it used to be in PS1 (at least when I used to play) , which was...

Each squad would have a Squad Leader (running the squad and making the tactical decisions), then a 2ic doing the map drawings and setting squad waypoints etc... (as it was too much work to do both, especially if the Squad Leader was also doing the CR5 continent co ordination on the night as was often the case)

Anyways,
I'm not against multiple squad spawn, especially if you have to be Certed to be spawned on..

Agree with there beeing a SOI, or a scaled timer
- 30 seconds first spawn
- 5 minutes second spawn
- 15 minutes 3rd spawn

for eg..

[Xyntech]

This is becoming a duck season/rabbit season argument, but there are two things that need to be clarified:

1. Galaxy use will be less if squad spawning was more prominent. I have never denied that it wouldn't be less. However, "negation" implies reduced to zero, not "made less". Every time someone says something will be negated, they are literally saying it will be reduced to zero(or, made completely worthless). Let's be frank, that's an exaggeration.



2. Objectivity. The definition of objectivity is "not influenced by personal feelings/tastes/etc" and the definition of subjectivity is "influenced by personal feelings/taste/etc". Can you honestly say that when you say the use of Galaxies should not be made less, that that is not influenced by your personal feelings or taste?

I chose my words for good reason. I would never go so far as to say that squad spawning would 100% eliminate Galaxy spawning (people used the beamer and harasser in PS1), but it would reduce the Galaxy to being so useless that it would rarely get used by anyone who knew anything about how to play the game.

Here's a few objective facts about why unchecked squad spawning would be superior to Galaxy spawning:

1) Galaxies can be destroyed.
Sure you can shoot down a drop pod or kill the person as soon as the drop pod lands, but you can also kill someone who just spawned in at a Galaxy. If your drop pod gets killed, just squad spawn in again. If they kill your Galaxy spawn point, you're fucked.

2) Drop pods can spawn on places where Galaxies can't go.
This expands on the first point. Squad spawning can insert you into places where Galaxy spawn points can't survive. Depending on how landing works in the final version, you may be unable to even deploy a Galaxy in some difficult terrain, regardless of how hot the area is. Unchecked drop pods would effectively negate both roles of the Galaxy at once. While a Galaxy has to spawn people in while deployed, and then load them up to do a hot drop, squad spawning does both jobs at once.

3) The element of surprise.
If you have one person spawning at a Galaxy, you probably have multiple people spawning there. That makes it a pretty obvious hotspot for the enemy to be watching. It's also a big target which gives a lot more notice that someone is about to spawn in than a drop pod does. Sure you can see where a drop pod is coming in from, but if you have 50+ people each dropping in every 30 seconds, there is no way that you'll be able to keep track of where they're all going to be landing.

On the flip side, the Galaxy would have relatively few advantages as a spawn point.

-It would have guns to defend it's position with, which depends on people waiting inside those guns until something comes along for them to shoot. Not exactly a hopeful prospect in a game that's supposed to be so sped up, is it?

-Parking a Galaxy out of sight behind a hill so that people don't see you spawning in. Again, that's going to be significantly slower, depending on how far back you need to park to remain hidden. The enemy will also probably start noticing the stream of people coming from that direction if you aren't careful as well.

-Maybe a cloak bubble sidegrade... Maybe. Big "if," at the moment.

Now a Galaxy doesn't have to be all about slowing down gameplay, but it's only remaining uses would be for slow paced strategies if squad spawning were allowed to be the superior form of spawning in every situation that was more dangerous.

We'll have to see how it plays out in beta, to see how close we can get Galaxies to the front lines, but for now the devs seem to think that a 5 minute cooldown is a good thing for squad spawning.

Btw, on a personal note, I have no strong emotional investment in how we spawn, but right now the developers seem to intend to have Galaxies act as spawn points. I don't see the value in speculating about ways to make any specific vehicle be significantly more useless in a role it's meant to fill. I have concerns about aircav being superior to Galaxies as far as hot dropping is concerned as well, and if anything, I have stronger emotional investment in aircav, since it's my gameplay style of choice.

Emotions play a part for everyone, but in this case I'm mostly coming from a perspective of objectivity.

[Stardouser]

1. Squad leaders can also be killed, and easier too, since they will be driving forward towards the objective. When they do, if there is no Galaxy, they will have to come all the way from the nearest fixed base. Even though numerically most of the spawns would be via squad spawn, that doesn't diminish the importance of having that Galaxy when your leader dies.

2. The very fact that drop pods can go where Galaxies can't is the reason why people are asking for spheres of influence so that drop pods can't go into bases. If we have that sphere of influence, then at least insofar as people drop podding into bases goes, it's not unchecked.

3. A galaxy is a big target, but I believe it will be standard procedure to park them far enough away that they can be shielded from view by something(a hill, etc). Accordingly, since we do have drop pods on the squad spawn mechanic, they should at the least be quite obvious as they fall. And if there is a sphere of influence, then they will fall outside a base, which makes them even more obvious.


Emotions play a part for everyone, but in this case I'm mostly coming from a perspective of objectivity.

Well, it IS objective if you say "if it is done like that, then this will be the consequences". What I feel is subjective, is whether or not those consequences are good or bad. You can objectively say that a lower squad spawn timer will cause Galaxies to be numerically spawned at less times. To say that is a bad thing, however, is subjective. But I am absolutely convinced that squad leaders will have a suitably high mortality rate that Galaxies will still be important. Numerically, less spawns will go through them, that is very much true. But without them, every time a squad leader dies, he will have a lot longer travel back time, and so indirectly the Galaxy facilitates every squad spawn that comes after a SL respawns at it.

But with ALL this said, there's something else I've not considered until just this moment. From all indications, infantry movement speed in PS2 is going to be a lot faster. This, combined with squad spawn available such as it is(5 minutes), maybe it will combine to be enough. We shall see.

[Xyntech]

At least we can agree to see how it goes and make up our minds after the fact.

I really think small SOI's and 5 minute timers that countdown from the moment you last squad spawned will probably be a pretty good balance. I'm much more concerned about Galaxy drops being negated by drop pods than about the spawn issue, so I think that as long as that's not happening, squad spawning will end up being valuable as a quick way to get into the thick of things or to rally up. It seems like a good niche to fill.

[Stardouser]

At least we can agree to see how it goes and make up our minds after the fact.

I really think small SOI's and 5 minute timers that countdown from the moment you last squad spawned will probably be a pretty good balance. I'm much more concerned about Galaxy drops being negated by drop pods than about the spawn issue, so I think that as long as that's not happening, squad spawning will end up being valuable as a quick way to get into the thick of things or to rally up. It seems like a good niche to fill.

You mean Galaxy drops as in Galaxies flying in and dropping 24 guys off? It seems like even having deployable Galaxies would cut in on Galaxy drops. I mean, for an initial attack people might do a Galaxy drop but if they don't take the base with it, are they going to continue to spawn back at Galaxy spawn bases to do it again or are they going to continue the fight by just spawning at the nearest deployed Galaxy and running back?

Actually, this brings up another point. Will anyone be running Galaxy drops from the deployed Galaxy area back to the target, despite the fact that the distance may only be as low as 500 meters? Maybe they will. PS1 Galaxies are pretty slow to land and pick up a squad due to the entry animations, so with that mechanic, it's probably faster to just run than wait for the Galaxy to ferry you back. But as PS2 doesn't have those animations and possibly Galaxies can land to do pickups easier, it might be a faster process.

[MrBloodworth]

Jesus, you guys can take a clear issue, and beat it down with semantics can't you.

[Raymac]

Jesus, you guys can take a clear issue, and beat it down with semantics can't you.

Welcome to Forumside Universe.:lol:

[fvdham]

I think spawning from a hoovering Galaxy is cooler than drop pod spawn,
because the enemy would have more of a counter.

[Goldeh]

I think the squad leader must be outside, in the open before drop pods can happen. Just say that being inside ruins the cellphone reception or whatever.

[Hamma]

I am hoping to get some answers on this during AGN Saturday so be sure to tune in. :)

[Karrade]

I am hoping to get some answers on this during AGN Saturday so be sure to tune in. :)

Thank you! If I had only one question through all this jumble, it would be how close can you drop to the capture point.

[Klockan]

I'm much more concerned about Galaxy drops being negated by drop pods than about the spawn issue, so I think that as long as that's not happening, squad spawning will end up being valuable as a quick way to get into the thick of things or to rally up. It seems like a good niche to fill.
Galaxy drops will still be much more potent than single guy with lots of squadspawned mates. Why? Because those who drops in by squadspawning can't do it again for 5 minutes so they can't respawn if they are killed while the whole squad from the galaxy drop can all squadspawn again if they die which makes that force so much more potent. The drop pod cooldown is a resource just like everything else and wasting it just because you didn't want to buy a galaxy doesn't sound like the best idea. As you have seen in the videos it is not just a squadspawn but you can also use it to get to tactical positions, so while you are there unable to use droppods because you already used them while every defender will be able to both drop pod down to surprise you from behind etc and are able to just spawn inside the base making your situation extremely unfavorable.

I think that what we will see is organized players saving their droppods as instant reinforcements and tactical maneuvers rather than mobility. Drop pod use will probably be one of the larger differences between bad and good players. A guy that just droppoded might get into really potent positions but he is also very vulnerable since if you kill him now he wont come back for a while so I think that people wont take too large risks with it either, especially since the drop extremely noticable and is a large sign that says "kill me, I wont respawn!!".

[Karrade]

Galaxy drops will still be much more potent than single guy with lots of squadspawned mates. Why? Because those who drops in by squadspawning can't do it again for 5 minutes so they can't respawn if they are killed while the whole squad from the galaxy drop can all squadspawn again if they die which makes that force so much more potent. The drop pod cooldown is a resource just like everything else and wasting it just because you didn't want to buy a galaxy doesn't sound like the best idea. As you have seen in the videos it is not just a squadspawn but you can also use it to get to tactical positions, so while you are there unable to use droppods because you already used them while every defender will be able to both drop pod down to surprise you from behind etc and are able to just spawn inside the base making your situation extremely unfavorable.

I think that what we will see is organized players saving their droppods as instant reinforcements and tactical maneuvers rather than mobility. Drop pod use will probably be one of the larger differences between bad and good players. A guy that just droppoded might get into really potent positions but he is also very vulnerable since if you kill him now he wont come back for a while so I think that people wont take too large risks with it either, especially since the drop extremely noticable and is a large sign that says "kill me, I wont respawn!!".

Speaking to the durability of the two options:

Galaxies are not like AMS's though they are an even bigger and more visible target. If they get cloak certs (when deployed), as was being chatted about, it'll help some.

Cloaked squad leaders that hang back will be the way to go, it'll only suit a certain type of player, as they'll have to be extra careful or stick close to a medic/engy for revives. Though I can't see it being that difficult to keep the SL up, working as a team. If the SL wipes (and can't be reached by the medic/engy), it wants to be the very LAST player to go down, as in the team is finished off anyway.

[Ohaunlaim]

One Galaxy flies over a base.... 24 squad leaders drop... seconds later 216 drop pods fill the sky....

EPIC!

[EVILoHOMER]

Surely they allowed drop pods into bases because it was E3 and they only allowed you in that base area as there weren't many people playing.

[infected]

i'd just like everyone to keep an eye out in beta for the scenario i drew up earlier.
(and hopefully more of you will voice your concerns against this)

100+ man outfit
1 galaxy
10+ squads
1 person from each squad rides in the galaxy
galaxy goes to do a base assault and drop on a capture point
the other 90+ people do a drop pod on their respective squad members that exit the galaxy. in a click of a button 10 become 100, or 12 becomes 120, or more depending on how many a galaxy can hold.

it is much easier to get air support (escort) to defend a single galaxy's approach. far less manpower and resources than 10 galaxies.

point being, 1 galaxy is not supposed to hold 100 players. galaxies cost resources, move slowly, and can be destroyed on approach, and require more air support (mosquitoes and perhaps liberator for example) as escort.

9 more galaxies would be a huge warning to the defenders that a big assault is incoming. it would cost the attackers many more resources, and it would take more execution to get them all to drop over the same spot (not physically possible to get 10 galaxies to occupy the same airspace at the same time)... 90 drop pods have no such restriction or warning. even a 5 minute cooldown will not stop this strategy.

solution? well an SOI for one. if the beta doesn't manage to find some balance to this, then there will be very little point in defending any base. and very little skill involved since coordination, execution, cost, and risk, are all reduced 10 fold.

[ringring]

I think spawning from a hoovering Galaxy is cooler than drop pod spawn,
because the enemy would have more of a counter.

Could a hoovering galaxy also carpet bomb? Hmmmm :cool:

[Karrade]

i'd just like everyone to keep an eye out in beta for the scenario i drew up earlier.
(and hopefully more of you will voice your concerns against this)

100+ man outfit
1 galaxy
10+ squads
1 person from each squad rides in the galaxy
galaxy goes to do a base assault and drop on a capture point
the other 90+ people do a drop pod on their respective squad members that exit the galaxy. in a click of a button 10 become 100, or 12 becomes 120, or more depending on how many a galaxy can hold.

it is much easier to get air support (escort) to defend a single galaxy's approach. far less manpower and resources than 10 galaxies.

point being, 1 galaxy is not supposed to hold 100 players. galaxies cost resources, move slowly, and can be destroyed on approach, and require more air support (mosquitoes and perhaps liberator for example) as escort.

9 more galaxies would be a huge warning to the defenders that a big assault is incoming. it would cost the attackers many more resources, and it would take more execution to get them all to drop over the same spot (not physically possible to get 10 galaxies to occupy the same airspace at the same time)... 90 drop pods have no such restriction or warning. even a 5 minute cooldown will not stop this strategy.

solution? well an SOI for one. if the beta doesn't manage to find some balance to this, then there will be very little point in defending any base. and very little skill involved since coordination, execution, cost, and risk, are all reduced 10 fold.

Yes I hadn't even thought of that! Better yet, take 3.

Have one sit Rear and front, with nobody in, the one in the middle being escorted. - Everyone in it a SL.

If galaxies are holding 20, 200 people drop from the middle! Your outfit basically spawns at once wherever they like, base gone, rinse repeat, next base.

I'd go get a cup of tea if I saw that happening on defense.

Someone will counter with yes but you can shoot them, to which i'd say, yes but you can revive them! Just make a few medics.

[Klockan]

i'd just like everyone to keep an eye out in beta for the scenario i drew up earlier.
(and hopefully more of you will voice your concerns against this)

100+ man outfit
1 galaxy
10+ squads
1 person from each squad rides in the galaxy
galaxy goes to do a base assault and drop on a capture point
the other 90+ people do a drop pod on their respective squad members that exit the galaxy. in a click of a button 10 become 100, or 12 becomes 120, or more depending on how many a galaxy can hold.

it is much easier to get air support (escort) to defend a single galaxy's approach. far less manpower and resources than 10 galaxies.

point being, 1 galaxy is not supposed to hold 100 players. galaxies cost resources, move slowly, and can be destroyed on approach, and require more air support (mosquitoes and perhaps liberator for example) as escort.

9 more galaxies would be a huge warning to the defenders that a big assault is incoming. it would cost the attackers many more resources, and it would take more execution to get them all to drop over the same spot (not physically possible to get 10 galaxies to occupy the same airspace at the same time)... 90 drop pods have no such restriction or warning. even a 5 minute cooldown will not stop this strategy.

solution? well an SOI for one. if the beta doesn't manage to find some balance to this, then there will be very little point in defending any base. and very little skill involved since coordination, execution, cost, and risk, are all reduced 10 fold.
Is your team having 90 guys just hanging around in the base waiting for the signal to drop down? Don't you think that you will lose a lot in every other location except where you are dropping due to this? What matters the most is binding up peoples time, doesn't really matter if you sit in a base or in a galaxy. Also if an outfit started to do that then everyone would start to recognize that outfit so they know when the gal comes that people will drop down, so they just focus more on destroying said gal since then they didn't just ruin 12 guys time but actually countered 120 guys time.

[Karrade]

Is your team having 90 guys just hanging around in the base waiting for the signal to drop down? Don't you think that you will lose a lot in every other location except where you are dropping due to this? What matters the most is binding up peoples time, doesn't really matter if you sit in a base or in a galaxy. Also if an outfit started to do that then everyone would start to recognize that outfit so they know when the gal comes that people will drop down, so they just focus more on destroying said gal since then they didn't just ruin 12 guys time but actually countered 120 guys time.

No i've seen some truly amazing max crashes completely own bases (as one example). They turn a base in minutes, and all organised/arrive at once.

Organised outfits don't play like the zerg, when they arrive, you know it.

Besides who said they have to be sitting around waiting anywhere. - Their flying in with mossies/reavers, or dying elsewhere (cleaning up), to spawn here.

[Klockan]

No i've seen some truly amazing max crashes completely own bases (as one example). They turn a base in minutes, and all organised/arrive at once.

Organised outfits don't play like the zerg, when they arrive, you know it.

Besides who said they have to be sitting around waiting anywhere. - Their flying in with mossies/reavers, or dying elsewhere (cleaning up), to spawn here.
But then how is this different from just 100 people attacking at once? I don't really get why the idea of 100 drop pods would ruin the game. If they chose to use it to attack like that it is fine, they would most likely had been better off with a more balanced assault since that much infantry is really vulnerable.

[Karrade]

But then how is this different from just 100 people attacking at once? I don't really get why the idea of 100 drop pods would ruin the game. If they chose to use it to attack like that it is fine, they would most likely had been better off with a more balanced assault since that much infantry is really vulnerable.

Because without SL's that 100 people wouldn't be able to spawn just anywhere, behind you, in front of you, beside you, under you, over you.

There is no defense against an attack that can come from anywhere. Can you see that much?

So the question doesn't become is this a good or bad mechanic, it becomes why defend? With open layouts and the SL mechanic, it makes defending extremely difficult.

[Dart]

Posted this elsewhere but it's relevant here:

According to Higby's stream you can actually Drop Pod directly onto the roof of a Facility Capture Point (FCP hereafter). In the video (at 20:57 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=017I9ghLsYA#t=1250s) <--- click me) you can see an NC soldier emerging from a Drop Pod not 5m away from the FCP which Higby has just taken. To me this seems incredible. How can you possibly hope to defend a FCP if the enemy can simply launch Drop Pods on top of it? I have no idea how this will feel in the game but from an observational standpoint it looks unbalanced.

[Klockan]

Because without SL's that 100 people wouldn't be able to spawn just anywhere, behind you, in front of you, beside you, under you, over you.
No, they can only spawn close to their squad mates and the spawn is fairly noticeable with a large bang and an explosion so you should know that they are there.

Posted this elsewhere but it's relevant here:

According to Higby's stream you can actually Drop Pod directly onto the roof of a Facility Capture Point (FCP hereafter). In the video (at 20:57 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=017I9ghLsYA#t=1250s) <--- click me) you can see an NC soldier emerging from a Drop Pod not 5m away from the FCP which Higby has just taken. To me this seems incredible. How can you possibly hope to defend a FCP if the enemy can simply launch Drop Pods on top of it? I have no idea how this will feel in the game but from an observational standpoint it looks unbalanced.
Since higby already were inside and had captured it I don't see the point. The distance you can move the pod isn't all that long so you have to be fairly close to be able to land on top of it, and if there lands a pod behind you just turn around and kill the guy just as he gets out of the pod, when someone spawns he is disoriented so you are at an advantage.

[infected]

team deathmatch

[MrBloodworth]

More people should read the first post before commenting.

[Stardouser]

i'd just like everyone to keep an eye out in beta for the scenario i drew up earlier.
(and hopefully more of you will voice your concerns against this)

100+ man outfit
1 galaxy
10+ squads
1 person from each squad rides in the galaxy
galaxy goes to do a base assault and drop on a capture point
the other 90+ people do a drop pod on their respective squad members that exit the galaxy. in a click of a button 10 become 100, or 12 becomes 120, or more depending on how many a galaxy can hold.

it is much easier to get air support (escort) to defend a single galaxy's approach. far less manpower and resources than 10 galaxies.

point being, 1 galaxy is not supposed to hold 100 players. galaxies cost resources, move slowly, and can be destroyed on approach, and require more air support (mosquitoes and perhaps liberator for example) as escort.

9 more galaxies would be a huge warning to the defenders that a big assault is incoming. it would cost the attackers many more resources, and it would take more execution to get them all to drop over the same spot (not physically possible to get 10 galaxies to occupy the same airspace at the same time)... 90 drop pods have no such restriction or warning. even a 5 minute cooldown will not stop this strategy.

solution? well an SOI for one. if the beta doesn't manage to find some balance to this, then there will be very little point in defending any base. and very little skill involved since coordination, execution, cost, and risk, are all reduced 10 fold.

Whether or not your scenario is a problem is subjective. I don't think it would be a problem even if it did happen. The organization required to do it would be immense, and guess what? ALL 90 of the people who would drop pod have to be dead/unspawned in order to do it. Dead/unspawned means they can't be flying Reaver cover for the one Galaxy. And if the assault fails do you really think everyone is going to suicide and sit and wait for 10 squad leaders to reassemble in a single Galaxy to do it again?

Galaxies may be slow but they are really so slow that someone is going to see 10 of them coming and be able to set up a base defense before they get there? I don't think so, the continents are just too small for that much early warning. First of all, if 10 Galaxies fly over head and you've got a full third of the continent that your empire owns behind you, how do you know where they will go exactly? They could go anywhere in your territory. And then, even if you knew 10 galaxies were headed to Amp Station X(for example), and they were 60 seconds or even 180 seconds of flight away, you'd have to get either everyone to immediately spawn a vehicle and go to Amp Station X or get a ton of people to drop what they are doing and instant action to Amp Station X. Is that really possible? I think 90 drop pods coming down is as big a clue to an assault as 10 galaxies, and there's something else too : it should be possible to fly nap of the earth to get a Galaxy somewhere without being seen by every enemy for miles.

Also, I think you're just plain wrong about 1 Galaxy being easy to provide air support for. If it's so easy to see 10 Galaxies coming as you claim, then it should be possible to see 1 Galaxy coming and zerg it with a squadron of fighters.

Also, there's something you may not be aware of that affects your statements. Apparently people are saying Galaxies can now cert to hold "2 whole squads". If that's true, and it means 24 players, you need to adjust your example to say 5 Galaxies, not 10. You were saying that 1 Galaxy isn't supposed to hold 100 people, and that it's supposed to take 10. Well, if this is true, then 5 can hold 96(that's close enough to 100).

Also, there is a VERY simple solution to your problem that helps mitigate the problem: Make it so that you cannot squad spawn into an area until you've already traveled there. That means 1 Galaxy with 10 squad leaders can go there, sure, but their squadmates can't respawn on them unless they traveled there too. With a restriction like this in place, SOI or especially a 5 minute cooldown becomes recognizable as unnecessary. Well, you may still want a SOI so that people can't use drop pods to get on rooftops.

Even if you reject every other statement I made in this post, what about this idea though? Making it so that you cannot squad spawn into an area unless you have already traveled there and died?

[Bobby Shaftoe]

10 squad leaders to reassemble in a single Galaxy to do it again?

Doing it entirely wrong... There's plenty of tactics already used in PS1 that can be modified to exploit all these new game mechanics. Why would you get a slow, lumbering and highly visible blob like a Galaxy to do this, when you can get 10 (ie 9 more targets) small and agile 400+ kph capable aircav instead.

Resecure squads/openers were almost overwhelmingly airchavs, now a whole squad of them can just insta spawn on the first person who gets there.

I'm also amused you seem to think the galaxy method would require immense organisation... 90% of the people don't have to do anything but wait to spawn on their SL when a signal is given.

[Stardouser]

Doing it entirely wrong... There's plenty of tactics already used in PS1 that can be modified to exploit all these new game mechanics. Why would you get a slow, lumbering and highly visible blob like a Galaxy to do this, when you can get 10 (ie 9 more targets) small and agile 400+ kph capable aircav instead.

Resecure squads/openers were almost overwhelmingly airchavs, now a whole squad of them can just insta spawn on the first person who gets there.

I'm also amused you seem to think the galaxy method would require immense organisation... 90% of the people don't have to do anything but wait to spawn on their SL when a signal is given.

Bear in mind, it's not immense organization for PS1 outfits, but I'm talking about the quality of BF/CoD mindless meatgrinders that will be coming in. Even if you put these guys into an outfit with experienced PS1 outfit leaders who know what to do, they won't listen without being told 100 times.

What do you think of my idea, by the way? Make it so that you can't squad spawn in an area unless you already traveled there? Surely that mitigates the problem.

[Dart]

No, they can only spawn close to their squad mates and the spawn is fairly noticeable with a large bang and an explosion so you should know that they are there.


Since higby already were inside and had captured it I don't see the point. The distance you can move the pod isn't all that long so you have to be fairly close to be able to land on top of it, and if there lands a pod behind you just turn around and kill the guy just as he gets out of the pod, when someone spawns he is disoriented so you are at an advantage.

Now imagine a platoon of petiole all deep on the roof of a base... Kill them ALL as they get out of their drop pods?

[Klockan]

What do you think of my idea, by the way? Make it so that you can't squad spawn in an area unless you already traveled there? Surely that mitigates the problem.
Not really, it would just make the game frustrating in the beginning and then when you have traveled everywhere it changes nothing.

The best fix would be that you can't squadspawn on people who are in vehicles and people who have just gotten out of vehicles. Make it so that 30-60 seconds after you exited the vehicle you can't be spawned upon.

Now imagine a platoon of petiole all deep on the roof of a base... Kill them ALL as they get out of their drop pods?
How would you not lose to that if they just did it the normal way? Organizing a drop will take a fair bit of time for everyone involved since everyone needs to be dead and ready to spawn and having their droppod cooldown up. Also if I sat in a liberator or had a few friends that would be easy. The problem might be dropping MAX'es.

[Stardouser]

Not really, it would just make the game frustrating in the beginning and then when you have traveled everywhere it changes nothing.

The best fix would be that you can't squadspawn on people who are in vehicles and people who have just gotten out of vehicles. Make it so that 30-60 seconds after you exited the vehicle you can't be spawned upon.

I don't think you understood what I meant. Let me put it another way - you can't squad spawn anywhere but the hex/area you just died in. It does not mean you have to visit a place once and then you are good to go, it would work exactly like PS1 does - in PS1 you can HART to a place, or you can pull a vehicle and go through a warpgate and physically drive there. Only once you do one of those two things can you then respawn at towers/AMS/etc. I'm suggesting that squad spawn be treated just like that, you can't use it unless you were already there.

[Dart]

Not really, it would just make the game frustrating in the beginning and then when you have traveled everywhere it changes nothing.

The best fix would be that you can't squadspawn on people who are in vehicles and people who have just gotten out of vehicles. Make it so that 30-60 seconds after you exited the vehicle you can't be spawned upon.


How would you not lose to that if they just did it the normal way? Organizing a drop will take a fair bit of time for everyone involved since everyone needs to be dead and ready to spawn and having their droppod cooldown up.

It's worse because they bypass ALL defenders, obviously... You shouldn't be able to drop pod onto fscility buildings. Period.

Otherwise why bother with Galaxies and troop transport at all. Let's just play DropPodSide!

[Klockan]

It's worse because they bypass ALL defenders, obviously... You shouldn't be able to drop pod onto fscility buildings. Period.


Otherwise why bother with Galaxies and troop transport at all. Let's just play DropPodSide!
Because the drop pod got 5 minutes cooldown so if you gal drop you can drop pod if you die, while if you die after drop pod you are not coming back. So I am fairly sure that most will just go with drops and then use the drop pods as instant reinforcements in tight situations. This isn't PS1 where people aren't vulnerable, here if you are shot at you die.

[Stardouser]

It's worse because they bypass ALL defenders, obviously... You shouldn't be able to drop pod onto fscility buildings. Period.

Otherwise why bother with Galaxies and troop transport at all. Let's just play DropPodSide!

What people don't understand is that except for the "1 galaxy with 10 squad leaders in it" (which would be fixed by my idea), Galaxies have an advantage: They bring 12 guys all at once, whereas drop pods come down separately and make easy targets. Therefore, it's a tradeoff, much like most things in the game, and because using heavily armored Galaxies provides that advantage, people will use it. Or they will roll the dice and use a drop pod. It's not something that has to be sterilized from the game.

[Dart]

What people don't understand is that except for the "1 galaxy with 10 squad leaders in it" (which would be fixed by my idea), Galaxies have an advantage: They bring 12 guys all at once, whereas drop pods come down separately and make easy targets. Therefore, it's a tradeoff, much like most things in the game, and because using heavily armored Galaxies provides that advantage, people will use it. Or they will roll the dice and use a drop pod. It's not something that has to be sterilized from the game.

You can bring them all down on the same target at the same time simply by timing it on mumble/vent/TS... The difference is in a Galaxy you can get shot down but in a drop pod not only are you invulnerable but you kill anything you land on. How is this NOT overpowered?

The 5 minute timer is no limitation at all. Picture the scene - you and your platoon have fought like heros to clear and secure an enemy facility - you're capping the point and defending it like pros. Suddenly with a few seconds left and large enemy Outfit drops 70 invincible drop pods on top of the building, 60 MAXes disembark and slaughter your platoon while the 10 softies hack. That takes virtually zero co-ordination on their part (or very little compared to what you had to do) and is almost impossible to stop... How would you feel? Is that really the game you want to play?

In my opinion if those 70 guys want to drop pod in they should have to drop a 'safe distance' away from the objective and run to it, during which time they could be shot, run over, rocket-spammed etc and that is their fault for NOT organising a better transport than a drop pod.

Drop pods should be a quick way of getting closer to the battle - NOT an instant win button for groups who cannot organise themselves any other way.

[Stardouser]

You can bring them all down on the same target at the same time simply by timing it on mumble/vent/TS... The difference is in a Galaxy you can get shot down but in a drop pod not only are you invulnerable but you kill anything you land on. How is this NOT overpowered?

The 5 minute timer is no limitation at all. Picture the scene - you and your platoon have fought like heros to clear and secure an enemy facility - you're capping the point and defending it like pros. Suddenly with a few seconds left and large enemy Outfit drops 70 invincible drop pods on top of the building, 60 MAXes disembark and slaughter your platoon while the 10 softies hack. That takes virtually zero co-ordination on their part (or very little compared to what you had to do) and is almost impossible to stop... How would you feel? Is that really the game you want to play?

In my opinion if those 70 guys want to drop pod in they should have to drop a 'safe distance' away from the objective and run to it, during which time they could be shot, run over, rocket-spammed etc and that is their fault for NOT organising a better transport than a drop pod.

Drop pods should be a quick way of getting closer to the battle - NOT an instant win button for groups who cannot organise themselves any other way.

First of all, when was it confirmed that drop pods were invincible? I must have missed that. Also, calling it an "instant win" button is pure speculation until seen in action. Though I will say that the idea of drop podding MAXes seems overpowered.

Secondly, I am not in anyway opposing a SOI to force people to spawn a "safe distance" away. I'm fine with that. I'm opposing the 5 minute cooldown.

And for the record, I am opposed to drop pods anyway. People complain about appearing next to your squad leader being ridiculous(though it's no more ridiculous than endless soldiers spawning from Galaxies, or even the idea of respawning after you die at all) but drop pods are the greater evil.

[Dart]

First of all, when was it confirmed that drop pods were invincible? I must have missed that. Also, calling it an "instant win" button is pure speculation until seen in action. Though I will say that the idea of drop podding MAXes seems overpowered.

Secondly, I am not in anyway opposing a SOI to force people to spawn a "safe distance" away. I'm fine with that. I'm opposing the 5 minute cooldown.

Well we saw a drop pod destroy a galaxy as it descended so that's pretty powerful... And you're opposing the 5 minute cool down??? I can't tell if you're joking or not. What would you rather see?

[Klockan]

The 5 minute timer is no limitation at all. Picture the scene - you and your platoon have fought like heros to clear and secure an enemy facility - you're capping the point and defending it like pros. Suddenly with a few seconds left and large enemy Outfit drops 70 invincible drop pods on top of the building, 60 MAXes disembark and slaughter your platoon while the 10 softies hack. That takes virtually zero co-ordination on their part (or very little compared to what you had to do) and is almost impossible to stop... How would you feel? Is that really the game you want to play?
They could just spawn those 70 guys in the base and take it all over as well with less coordination and effort. Drop pods are strong, yes, but you guys are coming up with convoluted scenarios that will almost never happen because they are unpractical. But yeah, I can agree that drop pods shouldn't be able to gib stuff, then they are basically artillery.

[Stardouser]

Well we saw a drop pod destroy a galaxy as it descended so that's pretty powerful... And you're opposing the 5 minute cool down??? I can't tell if you're joking or not. What would you rather see?

That's no joke. If there is a sphere of influence, there is no need for a 5 minute cooldown. 45 seconds would be plenty. 45 seconds is an eternity of time in a fast paced game, plenty enough to kill the squad leader. 15 seconds is enough to kill a squad leader in BAttlefield, and I'm proposing 45. Now, PS1 soldiers are a bit slow and weapons high TTK, so in PS1, this would not be true. But all the videos of PS2 show a fast paced game, very very nearly as fast paced as BF3.

And I think drop pods landing on people or especially Galaxies is as stupid as you think it is.

[Dart]

They could just spawn those 70 guys in the base and take it all over as well with less coordination and effort. Drop pods are strong, yes, but you guys are coming up with convoluted scenarios that will almost never happen because they are unpractical. But yeah, I can agree that drop pods shouldn't be able to gib stuff, then they are basically artillery.

Wrong. Only certain building have spawn points and we have to believe those can be disabled... Have you watched/read anything about PS2? Those 70 guys should have to travel to the base in the conventional manner (via vehicles) or run from wherever the drop pod lands them LIKE EVERYONE ELSE! Anything less will ruin co-ordinated team play in PS2 imo.

Edit: And it's not convoluted at all. In fact if this were a mechanic in the game I can bet you as much as you like that you'd see all the big Outfits using this method of resecuring bases every single day of the week.

That's no joke. If there is a sphere of influence, there is no need for a 5 minute cooldown. 45 seconds would be plenty. 45 seconds is an eternity of time in a fast paced game, plenty enough to kill the squad leader. 15 seconds is enough to kill a squad leader in BAttlefield, and I'm proposing 45. Now, PS1 soldiers are a bit slow and weapons high TTK, so in PS1, this would not be true. But all the videos of PS2 show a fast paced game, very very nearly as fast paced as BF3.

And I think drop pods landing on people or especially Galaxies is as stupid as you think it is.

What?! Did you play PlanetSide at all... This isn't Battlefield - it's an MMO. That worked in BF because there were far fewer players. If you had ppl dropping in every 45 seconds nobody would ever cap ANYTHING because defence would be insanely easy. Please don't confuse PS2 with BF3 - they are totally different games. PS2 is about co-ordination and teamwork. Spawn on squad is a very tricky mechanic in a game which features those two elements and could very very easily break an otherwise enjoyable game.

[Klockan]

Wrong. Only certain building have spawn points and we have to believe those can be disabled... Have you watched/read anything about PS2? Those 70 guys should have to travel to the base in the conventional manner (via vehicles) or run from wherever the drop pod lands them LIKE EVERYONE ELSE! Anything less will ruin co-ordinated team play in PS2 imo.
Why would you be able to disable their spawn before you could capture it? I haven't seen them saying anything about that. Just because you could do that in PS1 doesn't mean that you can in PS2, you couldn't disable it at E3 and they said nothing about it just being for E3. It is you making assumptions when you say that you can disable the spawning.

Edit: And it's not convoluted at all. In fact if this were a mechanic in the game I can bet you as much as you like that you'd see all the big Outfits using this method of resecuring bases every single day of the week.
But you can just spawn there instead.

[Dart]

Why would you be able to disable their spawn before you could capture it? I haven't seen them saying anything about that. Just because you could do that in PS1 doesn't mean that you can in PS2, you couldn't disable it at E3 and they said nothing about it just being for E3. It is you making assumptions when you say that you can disable the spawning.


But you can just spawn there instead.

You're assuming all of the capture points have spawn points inside them... They don't.

And they've already confirmed facilities have Generators which can be destroyed. What do you think those control?

Edit: Note during the E3 demo you didn't see Higby spawning inside the base he was defending/attacking - he was coming from Galaxies and spawning on squad. If you can't disable base spawns capping bases with less than the zerg will be a nightmare.

[Klockan]

You're assuming all of the capture points have spawn points inside them... They don't.Nope, but all important capture points do. The E3 facility was a fairly small facility and it did still have a spawn location.

And they've already confirmed facilities have Generators which can be destroyed. What do you think those control?
Maybe vehicle spawning or some defenses like a shield that could prevent enemies from entering like seen in the movie footages.

[Dart]

Nope, but all important capture points do. The E3 facility was a fairly small facility and it did still have a spawn location.


Maybe vehicle spawning or some defenses like a shield that could prevent enemies from entering like seen in the movie footages.

We won't know either way until beta starts. But if you can (A) not disable enemy spawns inside a base you are hacking and (B) spawn on top of facility capture points, PS2 will lose a large element of the tactical gameplay which made it's predecessor great in my opinion and replace it with zerging.

That's my final thought on the matter until I have the beta client in front of me.

[Stardouser]

What?! Did you play PlanetSide at all... This isn't Battlefield - it's an MMO. That worked in BF because there were far fewer players. If you had ppl dropping in every 45 seconds nobody would ever cap ANYTHING because defence would be insanely easy. Please don't confuse PS2 with BF3 - they are totally different games. PS2 is about co-ordination and teamwork. Spawn on squad is a very tricky mechanic in a game which features those two elements and could very very easily break an otherwise enjoyable game.

Yes. And I've been playing it considerably in the last 2 weeks, because when I played it 2 months ago there were hardly any players around, but now there are a good bunch. I am all about teamwork; and I am basing my opinions on squad spawning working with an MMO. And let's be clear about something : Battlefield used to be about teamwork before BF3 came. PS2 is still an FPS, and I don't see the scale of the game making this a problem.

That said, it looks like we have a contradiction here. You say squad spawn being 45 seconds will make defense insanely easy? Although it's subject to beta, defenders will already be able to respawn in their spawn rooms much faster than 45 seconds, AND they have jump pads... And further adding to the contradiction, while you are saying squad spawn will overpower defenders, other people say it will overpower attackers. Surely you can see how it looks when the anti-squad spawning people are split behind 2 opposing arguments like this.

[Klockan]

We won't know either way until beta starts. But if you can (A) not disable enemy spawns inside a base you are hacking and (B) spawn on top of facility capture points, PS2 will lose a large element of the tactical gameplay which made it's predecessor great in my opinion and replace it with zerging.

That's my final thought on the matter until I have the beta client in front of me.
You wont beat an army that has infinite respawns just next to their respawn chamber if you just try to zerg them. To beat that you need some kind of strategy. Being able to quickly lock down the enemy spawning capabilities promotes zerging more imo, just move in with a large bunch of guys and instantly make the whole facility inept.

[Dart]

You wont beat an army that has infinite respawns just next to their respawn chamber if you just try to zerg them. To beat that you need some kind of strategy. Being able to quickly lock down the enemy spawning capabilities promotes zerging more imo, just move in with a large bunch of guys and instantly make the whole facility inept.

I don't know a single PS player I've ever played with who'd agree with you. You could disable enemy spawns with one smart, resourceful person. If you can't kill spawns it's just about who has more fodder or can camp the other with vehicles faster. Neither of which make for dynamic, tactical gameplay.

I'm very glad your not calling the shots on PS2 or I don't think I'd be playing it...

[Arovien]

SOI + 15min cooldown on Drop pods.

Understood that what we've seen so far is not reflective of beta and of course not of launch.

[Klockan]

I don't know a single PS player I've ever played with who'd agree with you. You could disable enemy spawns with one smart, resourceful person. If you can't kill spawns it's just about who has more fodder or can camp the other with vehicles faster. Neither of which make for dynamic, tactical gameplay.

I'm very glad your not calling the shots on PS2 or I don't think I'd be playing it...
It might be strategical to actually get to the facility while the enemy isn't there but when you actually get there it is just zerging the consoles asap and the facility is yours, basically making it near impossible to defend facilities if you aren't there when the enemy attacks. Then with how the facilities look in PS1 it is a hell to take it if you don't surprise them getting there so the strategies always evolved around trying to get to the enemy facility without them noticing. That wont be how PS2 plays.

[infected]

I don't think it would be a problem even if it did happen.
i call troll

let's say we give you the benefit of the doubt.... that you're not trolling us, but that you just have no grasp on how these game mechanics work. on that i say you should just stop participating in this discussion, because despite how clear we try to explain things, you reply that you don't see a problem.

that means we're wasting our time repeating ourselves because you just don't classify this scenario as a problem, or likely, or you could defend against it, or... you claim it requires skill... omg you're trolling us! everything that you post is just so far removed from how things work in this game. correcting your false assumptions has become a waste of time as each time we try you educate you on how something works, you come back with even more ridiculous claims.

that just has red flags all over it. stop trolling. this is a legitimate problem.

[Stardouser]

i call troll

let's say we give you the benefit of the doubt.... that you're not trolling us, but that you just have no grasp on how these game mechanics work. on that i say you should just stop participating in this discussion, because despite how clear we try to explain things, you reply that you don't see a problem.

that means we're wasting our time repeating ourselves because you just don't classify this scenario as a problem, or likely, or you could defend against it, or... you claim it requires skill... omg you're trolling us! everything that you post is just so far removed from how things work in this game. correcting your false assumptions has become a waste of time as each time we try you educate you on how something works, you come back with even more ridiculous claims.

that just has red flags all over it. stop trolling. this is a legitimate problem.



Saying that you are repeating yourself doesn't mean I'm not listening, and it doesn't mean I don't grasp what you're saying. I have played PS1 and I know what you're talking about. PS2 is going to play differently than PS1 and tactics will change. You call troll, I call fear of change. On that note, as for you trying to educate me on how it works, just how much have you been playing PS2 that you are able to educate anyone on how it works? Why are your assumptions about PS2 any less false than mine? Especially since everything we know could completely change in beta?

I do know how PS1 works. I don't need to be re-educated on it, you just need to accept that PS1 isn't some perfect game where referring to how PS1 did things is the answer to everything. If you think that just because I'm asking for something different than you are, that I need to be re-educated on how PS1 works, surely you can see why that makes you look like you want a carbon copy of PS1?

[infected]

you don't need to play ps2 (or ps1 for that matter) to recognize this as game-breaking. its about common sense. if you have it... and you can understand all basic game mechanics and how players will be able to abuse them, and you can see that the devs want to encourage base defense as part of the game, you can foresee the problem.

and big shock... i have never once mentioned ps1 but that doesn't stop you from creating more baseless arguments.

[Karrade]

Resecure squads/openers were almost overwhelmingly airchavs, now a whole squad of them can just insta spawn on the first person who gets there.

I'm also amused you seem to think the galaxy method would require immense organisation... 90% of the people don't have to do anything but wait to spawn on their SL when a signal is given.

Your point about organisation I was going to post but you beat me to it :). Like you say, no point sitting around, when you can just spawn as you like. Outfits are totally going to decimate bases in no time at all, and unless people can organise the beta to have a couple of good ones in (for testing), they won't see it coming for live.

Really have tried to do my best for the community here in highlighting just how much defenders will be up against it, as it stands anyway. Not saying all defenses should be easy or even balanced, just showing the glaring obvious from PS1 experience.

For any new people - Outfits do organise mercilessly so ;), that is what makes it fun, and wins large pvp fights.


Doing it entirely wrong... There's plenty of tactics already used in PS1 that can be modified to exploit all these new game mechanics. Why would you get a slow, lumbering and highly visible blob like a Galaxy to do this, when you can get 10 (ie 9 more targets) small and agile 400+ kph capable aircav instead.


Yeah that is why you'd be the guying calling the mission, i'd just be the grunt dropping :). These tactics we are cooking up are only going to get nastier as you point out.


What do you think of my idea, by the way? Make it so that you can't squad spawn in an area unless you already traveled there? Surely that mitigates the problem.

For my part it helps a lot, though SOI/drop shields around capture points would be better. At least until the gens for it are blown perhaps.

[Stardouser]

you don't need to play ps2 (or ps1 for that matter) to recognize this as game-breaking. its about common sense. if you have it... and you can understand all basic game mechanics and how players will be able to abuse them, and you can see that the devs want to encourage base defense as part of the game, you can foresee the problem.

and big shock... i have never once mentioned ps1 but that doesn't stop you from creating more baseless arguments.

I do understand the game mechanics. And I was never opposing a sphere of influence - ONLY the 5 minute cooldown. The abuse you keep talking about is a single galaxy dropping 10 squad leaders into a base and then squad spawning 90 more guys. First, if there's a sphere of influence, they can't this do inside the base at all. Secondly, if my idea about not being able to squad spawn unless you were physically present in the same hex was implemented, then you wouldn't even be able to squad spawn right outside the sphere of influence either, unless you had already traveled there via Galaxy/Sunderer/etc. With both of those things in place, the problem you speak of is avoided without a huge cooldown. Speak plainly here - would those things prevent the abuse you keep speaking of, or wouldn't they?

By the way, answer me this, if you don't mind. You just said "the devs want to encourage base defense as part of the game". Does this mean you believe squad spawning will overpower attackers? If so, how do you respond to Dart who suggested it will overpower defenders?

[infected]

I do understand the game mechanics. And I was never opposing a sphere of influence - ONLY the 5 minute cooldown. The abuse you keep talking about is a single galaxy dropping 10 squad leaders into a base and then squad spawning 90 more guys. First, if there's a sphere of influence, they can't this do inside the base at all. Secondly, if my idea about not being able to squad spawn unless you were physically present in the same hex was implemented, then you wouldn't even be able to squad spawn right outside the sphere of influence either, unless you had already traveled there via Galaxy/Sunderer/etc. With both of those things in place, the problem you speak of is avoided without a huge cooldown. Speak plainly here - would those things prevent the abuse you keep speaking of, or wouldn't they?

By the way, answer me this, if you don't mind. You just said "the devs want to encourage base defense as part of the game". Does this mean you believe squad spawning will overpower attackers? If so, how do you respond to Dart who suggested it will overpower defenders?

1. restricting if you can drop pod in a hex only if you've been there before.. um won't take long to have "discovered" the entire continent, so no i don't see that as a perfect solution. the drop pod discussion should get its own thread once we solve the lack of soi in game.

2. as for defenders also getting to use drop pods, well... technically they won't be defenders for long if they lose their base in a blink of an eye. but let's assume thre is an soi.. you're not going to like what comes next...

the problem with your arguments is that they are all over the place. one minute you're saying you agree with needing an soi, but you contradict yourself every time you come back and ask what's the difference between 1 galaxy with 100 soldiers and 10 galaxies and 100 soldiers. let's not go there again.

how about instead of arguing about drop pod timers, we all agree that soe needs to add an soi. w/o soi the game is going to be flat out broken. once we see soi implemented then we can discuss how drop pod timers need to be adjusted.

because if i were just to discuss drop pod timers alone, i think we could still find that shorter timers would still show a detriment to other aspects of the game. especially in the case you last mentioned where defenders would get to use it at will inside the soi. then you may agree that anything less than 5 minutes is flat out ridiculous.

in conclusion:
need soi - because w/o soi, bases get steamrolled
drop pod timers - still need those because otherwise defense would be able to zerg back into action like bf3.

[MrBloodworth]

Way to stay on point guys. :bananasex

[Flaropri]

1. restricting if you can drop pod in a hex only if you've been there before.. um won't take long to have "discovered" the entire continent, so no i don't see that as a perfect solution. the drop pod discussion should get its own thread once we solve the lack of soi in game.

Just to clarify, I believe the suggestion was to limit PodDropping to the hex you died in, not to require that you "visit" it once and are set for the rest of your life.

Personally I don't know about SOI, I'd have to experience the bases myself. I don't have a problem with it so long as it can be disabled or whatever. I do think that a "long" cooldown is necessary regardless though, if for no other reason than to give Medics, Gals, and the overall "supply line" more importance.

Way to stay on point guys. :bananasex

Staying on point: it's what forums are for. :D

[Stardouser]

1. restricting if you can spawn in a hex only if you've been there before.. um won't take long to have "discovered" the entire continent, so no i don't see that as a perfect solution.
2. because if i were just to discuss drop pod timers alone, i think we could still find that shorter timers would still show a detriment to other aspects of the game. especially in the case you last mentioned where defenders would get to use it at will inside the soi. then you may agree that anything less than 5 minutes is flat out ridiculous.

1. No- It is not about "discovery". I am talking about the exact same mechanic in Planetside 1, as I said above to the other person who didn't realize what I meant: If you go to Searhus and die at Karihi, then you can only respawn at Karihi or the AMSs/towers nearby. If you respawn, drive all the way to Iva, you'll no longer be able to respawn at Karihi or nearby towers, because you've changed your location. So, I'm talking about treating the squad leader exactly the same as you would an AMS or tower in PS1.

2. Basically, I have been arguing for a 45 second squad spawn timer. Now, at E3, Arclegger basically said there won't be a spawn timer penalty, so my guess is that defenders will be able to respawn at their fixed base locations within 15 seconds. Even in PS1, unless you were really bad, the timer to respawn at your own base was not usually more than 25 seconds. So either way that's a lot faster than squad spawning would be. And also, whereas in PS1, the spawn tube room of a main base took a certain amount of time to walk out of because they were deep in the base, the videos we've seen indicate that the spawn rooms in PS2 are a lot closer to the outside. So, while we won't really know what the spawn timer is until it's decided in beta, if it's 15-20 seconds for defenders at their own base, I think that makes squad spawning less powerful for defenders than just spawning in their own spawn rooms would be.

So yes, I agree, sphere of influence. Also, why not make drop pods light assault only? Everyone else, especially a MAX, is too heavy or else the drop pod can't brake and will crash and kill you, right?

Just to clarify, I believe the suggestion was to limit PodDropping to the hex you died in, not to require that you "visit" it once and are set for the rest of your life.


Nailed it!

[MrBloodworth]

Convoluted systems do not make a better game, they just make the game convoluted.

Put SOI's back. Fin. Simple.

[Dagron]

People seem to be arguing in favor of different mechanics for the squad spawn cooldown because they don't get that they're thinking about it in very different ways. Some are talking about the cooldown timer being slightly longer (30 sec - 1 min) than the default and starting at the moment you die, others are talking about the cooldown timer being very long (5+ min) and starting when you use the squad spawn.



Back on topic:

I'm going to leave the discussion on whether the ability to squad spawn should be limited or not for another time, for now i'm going to assume it needs to be limited because it's what the devs said was their intention.

Now, imo the more sensible option to limit it is the very long CD starting when you use it and not the slightly longer CD starting when you die. The reason for that is because i think people are much more likely to use it almost every time if they have to wait 30 extra seconds per spawn as opposed to being forced to wait 2+/3+/4+ mins if they die almost immediately after using it.
(In fact imo it should be longer than 5min, but that's a matter of balance and kind of off topic.)

As for SOI, i agree that they should be there no matter which CD option they go with. It's bad when one of the attacker's SLs can just AFK stealth at the roof of a capture point and their squad gets to spawn right on top of the defenders, even if it just happens every 5 mins it's still a lame tactic.

[goneglockin]

Convoluted systems do not make a better game, they just make the game convoluted.

Put SOI's back. Fin. Simple.

Bloodworth it's touching to see how you've grown by your posts. I remember you used to pick arguments with me all day long and you used to get so frustrated when you couldn't express what you wanted to say. It came out in your posts quite a bit I remember.

Me, I'm mostly too old to argue now. : )

[GreatMazinkaise]

One should consider what Markov was able to do to Emerald with just the HART alone (which was essentially on a five minute timer) because the Emeraldites were still in the habit of forming raids. A 35 second timer would be devastatingly powerful in the hands of some of the better outfits (Ht, PcP, maybe Future Crew if we're being generous).

[Klockan]

I agree that SOI can be good, but it shouldn't prevent you from spawning on your squad, it would only make your spawn get shunted away to the edge of the SOI if you tried. And the SOI should only cover bases, not all the areas you own.

[Dagron]

I agree that SOI can be good, but it shouldn't prevent you from spawning on your squad, it would only make your spawn get shunted away to the edge of the SOI if you tried. And the SOI should only cover bases, not all the areas you own.

Agreed.

[MrBloodworth]

I agree that SOI can be good, but it shouldn't prevent you from spawning on your squad, it would only make your spawn get shunted away to the edge of the SOI if you tried. And the SOI should only cover bases, not all the areas you own.

Just use the same rules as PS1 SOIs and the HART. /fin

One should consider what Markov was able to do to Emerald with just the HART alone (which was essentially on a five minute timer) because the Emeraldites were still in the habit of forming raids.

The HART was a global reinforcement timer, not a personal timer like drop pods are in PS2. Just need to point out this distinction.

[Hamma]

Thank you! If I had only one question through all this jumble, it would be how close can you drop to the capture point.

Aye!

Honestly I can tell you right now based off personal experience you can drop literally anywhere on a base. The roof, the area around it.. literally anywhere. There are timers however you can't do it everytime.

[Klockan]

Just use the same rules as PS1 SOIs and the HART. /fin
No, this game needs squad spawn really.

[MrBloodworth]

As I tried to point out in the OP. Its not JUST about being able to land on a roof and grab a cap point.

Its about how a base is approached, and defended. If you have everyone able to spawn ANYWHERE circumventing all defenses, static and not. Its just a death match.

The SOI imposes that all assault come from outside the base and approach it, by air or ground from outside. Not every direction with in and with out, that just makes for a clusterfuck.

No, this game needs squad spawn really.

I never said remove squad spawn ( AKA: Drop pods ). People were spawning "on squad" using drop pods in PS1, it just was not inside a bases courtyard, you still had to approach the base from outside its SOI.

[MrMorton]

the way it is balanced is that the drop isn't very precise, so until the squad can group up they are very exposed.

added to that is the squad spawn timer, that prevents people from continuing to spawn on spadmates repeatedly, but rather at galaxies/bases behind the front lines of the battle.


i assure you, ps2 won't suffer from bf3 syndrome :)

[EisenKreutzer]

The way I understand it, squad spawning is on a long cooldown. Many posts in this thread paint a picture of a situation where enemy players will be drop-poding into your base constantly in a continuous stream of reinforcements.

Thats pretty clearly not the case, and I think positioning and tactics of approach will be equally valid in PS2 as it was in PS. More likely, you will be forced to rely on nearby, strategically placed Galaxies or peripheral bases for your spawning during an assault.

In fact, this squad spawn system opens up new tactics, like Sunderer raids followed by a surge of squad spawns. I think that sounds pretty fun.

[Tehroth]

Bases should be that, defensible positions on the map with turrets, shields and the such. You should allow squad drop podding when there is a base mechanism de-activated. That should be a infiltrators job to get in the base and DE-activate it so people can drop pod in. Also the walls and doors should be that and light assault should be the only ones to jump over those to make a push and take the door gate area and open it up or the heavier classes and ground vehicles. This gives more roles for people who like to play solo or what have you and makes them actually very useful.

That is what darkfall online did in the early days they had cities/hamlets without any doors on the walls or guard towers and people would just waltz in there and death arena it up. We don't want that.

[Stardouser]

Bases should be that, defensible positions on the map with turrets, shields and the such.

Actually, good point. For main bases, instead of having a magical and arbitrary-in-appearance SOI, why not have a shield that drop pods can't pass through and blow up on impact if they hit it, but that infantry can walk through?

[EisenKreutzer]

Bases should be that, defensible positions on the map with turrets, shields and the such.

Don't forget that the devs have altered the model for Planetside 2, away from the more realistic portrayal of space age warfare that was PLanetside 1 and towards more AAA FPS play. The bases are repeatedly described as battlefields rather than fortifications by the devs. They are built like maps in other FPS games, with capture points and win conditions.

[MrBloodworth]

Actually, good point. For main bases, instead of having a magical and arbitrary-in-appearance SOI, why not have a shield that drop pods can't pass through and blow up on impact if they hit it, but that infantry can walk through?

SOI was a drop pod shield.

[Sephirex]

Don't forget that the devs have altered the model for Planetside 2, away from the more realistic portrayal of space age warfare that was PLanetside 1 and towards more AAA FPS play. The bases are repeatedly described as battlefields rather than fortifications by the devs. They are built like maps in other FPS games, with capture points and win conditions.

While I agree with almost all of your points, I just don't see walls playing a huge role in "realistic space age warfare"

[Stardouser]

SOI was a drop pod shield.

No...I'm talking about a shield that would be physically represented in the game as something you can physically hit. A sphere of influence would just be some magical area around which it says "you can't do this" for squad spawning, deploying galaxies, etc(and yes, I don't remember where but Higby mentioned a sphere of influence to push galaxy deployment away from the base. How far was not said).

[Sephirex]

No...I'm talking about a shield that would be physically represented in the game as something you can physically hit. A sphere of influence would just be some magical area around which it says "you can't do this" for squad spawning, deploying galaxies, etc(and yes, I don't remember where but Higby mentioned a sphere of influence to push galaxy deployment away from the base. How far was not said).

Invisible forcefield vs visible forcefield. WHICH WILL WIN?!