Devs: Engineers Should carry Ammo packs..not LA's.

[Top Sgt]

What are your thoughts?

After watching the video from yesterday 3 times and thinking about organized play...

Light Assault troops should be short term troops that get in quick and hard to reach places to clear the way or scout for actual hard hitting shock troops whereas they then pull back and regoup being thin skinned etc.

Giving them ammo packs however will promote lone rambo's to fly up on ridges/inaccessible areas & sit forever with unlimited ammo and just try & fire for kills. Ammo is then not being distributed to the below players near the objective who need it.

You saw even in the livstream video Max's and others needing Ammo bad and no light assaults anywhere to be found.. but medics and engineers were there at the objective.

my thought is engineer's should carry ammo to distribute to others.. not light assault.

This is not a complaint this is a discussion

EDIT: DEVS HAVE NOW CONFIRMED THE LIGHT ASSAULT CLASS WILL NOT KEEP THE AMMO PACKS ANYMORE.

[Zekeen]

Engineers already have a rather heavy role to play. Having ammo boxes along with engineering is too much, and taking away one of their engineering specialties would not be good for the class.

I think light assault are the main troops, not disposable scouts. I already got a thread in the idea section going on a way to fix the Light Assault giving out ammo and jetpacking at the same time. I believe it makes them more of a tactical and variable class instead of a rush out, supply and die type class.

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=41994

[RodenyC]

Ammo/Med packs don't belong in general .

[GreatMazinkaise]

While I agree with that (and if we're sticking to ammo drops the little glowing icon needs to be replaced with an actual game object); are the ammo drops unlimited?

I kind of assumed you'd only get a couple per loadout.

[Purple]

the E3 players were not working together much. during actual play we will see teamwork due to the fact players will be able to talk to eachother. im sure the ammo packs will be limited.

[Bags]

I don't understand why the only class that can easily get on the roof can also sustain itself ammo wise on the roof. This is very dumb.

Imagine if soldiers in TF2 could drop ammo packs...

[Zekeen]

I don't understand why the only class that can easily get on the roof can also sustain itself ammo wise on the roof. This is very dumb.

Imagine if soldiers in TF2 could drop ammo packs...

I had suggested that the Light Assault be able to equip a backpack in place of the jetpack, each one giving a different bonus. Ammunition Backpack is one of them. Then they can't just fly and drop and camp.

[Unforgiven]

im against any sort of ammo packs, it should be some sort of resupply point that is either carried in a vehicle, or built by an engineer, its not a game breaker for me, but i know from experience in real life, your buddy cant just pull ammo out of his ass and throw it to you in a fire fight... but he can give you one of his magazines (hint hint)

[Malorn]

I think that puts too much support on the engineer class and would lessen the teamwork value of a light assault. I'm not sure jetpack is enough value to the squad to warrant wanting a LA over another HA, medic, engineer, or MAX. Ammo gives them squad value, and the mobility to deliver it where needed.

[Neksar]

Maybe make the medic a support class, and let them carry ammo boxes and a bigger gun to compensate for losing their ability to heal? Perhaps even with a model change to accompany and signal "This guy has bullets. He will give them to you if you ask nicely." That way you have a class for generalized support that will know exactly what its role is, with visual indicators so folks know who to run to.

[MrBloodworth]

Ammo/Med packs don't belong in general .

I agree.

Not with the removal of innovatory. Besides, we had this: Aegis Shield Generator (http://wiki.planetsidesyndicate.com/index.php?title=Aegis_Shield_Generator)

[OutlawDr]

Light assault is already very one dimensional, while the engineer is a swiss army knife. Its not too uncommon for real world troops to be dedicated ammo mules, but its not the engineers. However I agree with Zekeen that there should be a tradeoff. LA should either take jumpjets or dedicated ammo guy ...but not both. Separating the two (just like infiltrator can't be both sniper and assassin) would allow the devs to better refine these roles.

[Top Sgt]

I guess my point is this:

Those of us in outfit's.. yes this won't be a big issue

But there will be thousands of random's playing alone.. and you should know what is going to happen. the one's who do not choose a max or to fly.. they will choose light assault knowing they carry ammo.

It will be lone wolf city. All the ammo i'll need and a jetpack to get me in hard to reach places so I can just go for kills etc.

this is why I think this should be changed up some. I'm good with the idea of splitting up the class either carry jet packs or carry ammo packs etc. Doesn't have to be enginner was just a suggestion.

[LZachariah]

This isn't too big an issue for me, but I figured that if anyone should have ammo packs, it's Heavy Assault. In any event, it won't a problem :-)

~Zachariah

[Dreamcast]

I agree Light assault should not have ammo..is gonna lead to weird camping spots and it doesn't make sense.


Medic or engineer should have it.

[MrBloodworth]

Medic or engineer should have it.

OR!


Equipment terminals.
AMS
Aegis Shield Generator
Looting
Hacking
Swapping with teammates
kissing your ass goodby

[The Kush]

I agree 100% give the ammo packs to engineers

[bullet]

So much theorycrafting, speculations, and end of the world scenarios have been popping up like crazy from these E3 vids.

-This is beta still
-Its not balanced
-Its an unorganized group of press playing
-There hasnt been any LARGE battles to test any of this stuff
-Not everyone plays the same style
-This is still beta and its unbalanced
-Read line above
-Then read it again

[The Kush]

Yea blood or just make it where you can drop your own ammo packs for teammates or you have to go to a terminal/galaxy. This is classic PS1, it makes you have to be smart and a good player, not just fire your rounds off like a jackass cause you have an unlimited amount. Yes the game isn't close to finished yet, and I am happy for the most part, but any chance we have to fix what I call dumbing down the game should be taken advantage of to the fullest.

[Zekeen]

Engineers get a lot already and will always be getting more and more goodies.

Light assault has a lighter armament and armor ,and while I'm against jetpacks and ammo drop, I still say it can be broken up to more diversify the class.

Light Assault is Agile Armor, and that means one of the more frequent types. Right now they are just a bit more mobile at the expense of dieing sooner and killing slower than Heavy Assault. They need more tactical variations, like ammo drop, but make them just give up the jetpack for it. Bam, problem solved. No more ammo camping on rooftops.

Engineers just need more bigger, better, longer time to create objects. I wanna see them get other stuff than ammo. Doesn't fit nearly as well as miniature bunkers!

[The Kush]

Engineers get a lot already and will always be getting more and more goodies.

Light assault has a lighter armament and armor ,and while I'm against jetpacks and ammo drop, I still say it can be broken up to more diversify the class.

Light Assault is Agile Armor, and that means one of the more frequent types. Right now they are just a bit more mobile at the expense of dieing sooner and killing slower than Heavy Assault. They need more tactical variations, like ammo drop, but make them just give up the jetpack for it. Bam, problem solved. No more ammo camping on rooftops.

Engineers just need more bigger, better, longer time to create objects. I wanna see them get other stuff than ammo. Doesn't fit nearly as well as miniature bunkers!

Valid solution if we must dumb down the game with ammo drops.

[Xyntech]

I thought they were considering giving the ammo packs to Heavy Assault. Maybe they changed their minds? I think that would be a better idea. It would separate them that much further from MAXes.

Light Assault is Agile Armor, and that means one of the more frequent types. Right now they are just a bit more mobile at the expense of dieing sooner and killing slower than Heavy Assault. They need more tactical variations, like ammo drop, but make them just give up the jetpack for it. Bam, problem solved. No more ammo camping on rooftops.

Or that. It would certainly reduce the problem of HA being too strongly equipped in addition to having an ammo pack. LA would lose mobility, but gain a powerful supportive role. I like it.

[ThermalReaper]

I agree to both solutions. However I can't see which one is the better.
One on hand, there would be a reason to get an engineer other than repairing that MAX in pain(or PAYNE!)... Wait what is the role of the engineer again?
On the other hand it could be an ammo mule that supports others from the front rather than the back/flanks.

...I say give to engineer.
As for the LA Jumpjet, I say it should have two configurations like the cloak. A higher thrust for a lower time in the air, and a lower thrust for the higher time in the air.

[kaffis]

I don't understand why the only class that can easily get on the roof can also sustain itself ammo wise on the roof. This is very dumb.
Dude. If a LA manages to run out of ammo while on a roof, he deserves the refill. He's the second easiest thing to kill in the game, and the roof is pretty exposed if he's doing anything worthwhile. Just about everybody will have a weapon just as capable of returning fire as his own, and is likely to be more durable.

This is a non-issue.

An Engineer parking a turret by a capture point and being able to resupply himself, though, is way worse.

And I say that as a fan of Engineers.

[Coreldan]

I approve this message. I'd rather see ammo box as either ACE deployable or then just a seperate utility thing for the engineer.

Light Assault with ammo box just seems wrong.

[Zekeen]

Valid solution if we must dumb down the game with ammo drops.

Well, I suppose the biggest issue you have, is probably the same issue many of us have.

How Ammo Drops work.

We don't wanna see a Battlefield type ammo drop happen, where it just reloads everyone in the vicinity.

Would it be better if we turned ammo drops into something that only refills a bit of ammo for the person who picks it up. Maybe have it that you have to "use" it, to pick it up too. Also have it not refill completely, just gives you a chunk of ammo. And to top it all off, have an ammo box itself be a form of ammunition, refillable only at an equipment terminal. Maybe we should start a thread on how we want it to happen so it doesn't become the over the top ammo refill?

[Graywolves]

As Bags said, the Light Assualt can jump around and reach places most people can't. Why should it be able to self-sustain itself?

If a handful of people organized as LA they could make themselves a hornet's nest and harass enemy from a superior position almost indefinitely. It's likely that the majority of areas would be bombarded by aircraft but that's something that's not even a threat to them.


At one point in the stream I saw a Light Assault escape an engagement then jumppack above the threshheld he had just came from and drop an ammo pack then wait for the enemy.


The engineer might have too much already. But it just doesn't seem to operate correctly with the LA.


What is a light, jumppacking, infantryman doing with boxes of ammo anyways?

[Envenom]

What are your thoughts?

After watching the video from yesterday 3 times and thinking about organized play...

Light Assault troops should be short term troops that get in quick and hard to reach places to clear the way or scout for actual hard hitting shock troops whereas they then pull back and regoup being thin skinned etc.

Giving them ammo packs however will promote lone rambo's to fly up on ridges/inaccessible areas & sit forever with unlimited ammo and just try & fire for kills. Ammo is then not being distributed to the below players near the objective who need it.

You saw even in the livstream video Max's and others needing Ammo bad and no light assaults anywhere to be found.. but medics and engineers were there at the objective.

my thought is engineer's should carry ammo to distribute to others.. not light assault.

This is not a complaint this is a discussion

The engineer role is to sit in the back and support, or, defend bases. The people using ammo are on the front lines and therefore the LA should be the one delivering the goods.

[captainkapautz]

Heavy Assault.

[Haro]

I like giving an additional role to light assault. I think the engineer is going to be heavy enough as is, especially if they go through with the limited schematics design.

However, while I think we need to look closer at the light assault class before we judge it, it won't hurt to brainstorm a few methods.

1. Light assault as supply point. While he is resupplying friends, he is kneeling, unable to move (except he can rotate and look around) and he can't shoot. He takes several seconds to pack and unpack his kit, has a small radius around him (maybe 5 yards?) where friendly's are gradually resupplied, the closer they are, the faster they receive ammo. Does not replenish grenades or c4 (unless, maybe upgrade? Keep the resource costs in?)

2. Drops one resupply crate. Large, doesn't move, has limited supply of ammo, can be destroyed by enemy fire. Maybe have an upgrade that allows a soldier to pack it up again, perhaps a slow regeneration rate for supplies.

3. very limited supply of ammo packs. Maybe 3-4. each pack will partially resupply a soldier's ammo supply, maybe providing a couple magazines each? Definitely no grenades then.

We could also experiment with just leaving light assault out of ammo supply, or limiting what they could get. Honestly, I think concerns about this may be over blown. Light assaults seem to have mostly shorter range, lighter weapons, and very little protection. I saw plenty of people try to hop around roofs in the demo, very few achieved any real effectiveness. Either they were picked off by heavier soldiers on the ground, ambushed by other light assaults, or killed by aircraft.

Not to mention, there's the golden rule of Planetside: everyone dies. Somehow, someone is going to notice a guy on a roof pretty quickly, and can spec out in such a way where it's easy to wipe him out. I think as long as the resupply process is limited in some way or another, this will work fine. Every class seems to have at least two different roles, combat and support, and I think that's an excellent strategy that gives each class a lot of depth.

Also, one more thing: a personal favor, and I know I'm probably asking too much: could people really stop talking about how changes are "dumbing down the game?" It's unhelpful, completely subjective, and it annoys me. It automatically puts changes in a negative perspective (deserved or not,) does nothing to promote discussion or productivity, and doesn't really call upon any rational or logical argument. Besides, its not like every gameplay facet of the original was completely intellectual, and many of these changes may actually add new depth to the game.

[KTNApollo]

Engineer already has plenty to do.

[Top Sgt]

The engineer role is to sit in the back and support, or, defend bases. The people using ammo are on the front lines and therefore the LA should be the one delivering the goods.

again on paper yes.. In outfit's? yes.

but let's be real most players are gonna be random's playing alone or in small 2 or 3 man friend groups.

What are they gonna do.. " dude we can go light assault and jetpack to unreachable areas and we got unlimited ammo" and we can killwhore to death camping it up.

what we are trying to avoid

If LA's keep the ammo alteast make the packs limited and they can only re arm 1 or 2 times total per life.

[Xaine]

I think that puts too much support on the engineer class and would lessen the teamwork value of a light assault. I'm not sure jetpack is enough value to the squad to warrant wanting a LA over another HA, medic, engineer, or MAX. Ammo gives them squad value, and the mobility to deliver it where needed.

Very good point.

[diLLa]

again on paper yes.. In outfit's? yes.

but let's be real most players are gonna be random's playing alone or in small 2 or 3 man friend groups.

What are they gonna do.. " dude we can go light assault and jetpack to unreachable areas and we got unlimited ammo" and we can killwhore to death camping it up.

what we are trying to avoid

And you think in a game where thousands of players fight simultaneously, no one is ever going to find those 2 killwhores on top of a building?

[Top Sgt]

And you think in a game where thousands of players fight simultaneously, no one is ever going to find those 2 killwhores on top of a building?

yes they will be found.. but what about the other 300+ guys doing the same thing? look at the bigger scale...this is a free game to play.. Most of your COD players .. this will be the #1 thing to do in this game in their mind.

[Immigrant]

Not Engies, HAs should have Ammo Packs since they will be largest ammo consumers (except the MAXes). Engies have a lot of other stuff to carry on their back but generally I agree LA is poor choice for Ammo packs.

[EVILoHOMER]

Thing is SOE have played this game more than any of us so I think they can make the best decisions for it. If when we play the beta it doesn't work then we can cry about it and SOE will change it, it's not something we need to worry about until we played the game.

[kaffis]

And you think in a game where thousands of players fight simultaneously, no one with rifles is ever going to find those 2 killwhores on top of a building with carbines?
Added even more truth to your statement.

[Top Sgt]

let's keep the discussion adult and civil it's just discussion

I don't think anyone was "crying" over anything .. just something to discuss about a game were all eager to play.

[diLLa]

yes they will be found.. but what about the other 300+ guys doing the same thing? look at the bigger scale...this is a free game to play.. Most of your COD players .. this will be the #1 thing to do in this game in their mind.

I wouldnt be too worried about it. COD players wont be interested to stay playing this game if they are going to resort to these kind of tactics, cause it simply isnt effective whatsoever.

Outfits and more properly playing players would destroy this immediatelly

[Top Sgt]

I wouldnt be too worried about it. COD players wont be interested to stay playing this game if they are going to resort to these kind of tactics, cause it simply isnt effective whatsoever.

Outfits and more properly playing players would destroy this immediatelly

taken from my earlier post

"Those of us in outfit's.. yes this won't be a big issue

But there will be thousands of random's playing alone.. and you should know what is going to happen. the one's who do not choose a max or to fly.. they will choose light assault knowing they carry ammo.

It will be lone wolf city. All the ammo i'll need and a jetpack to get me in hard to reach places so I can just go for kills etc.

this is why I think this should be changed up some. I'm good with the idea of splitting up the class either carry jet packs or carry ammo packs etc. Doesn't have to be enginner was just a suggestion."
__________________

[Nasher]

I agree. It doesn't make much sense the the scout/infantry class carries ammo packs. Ammo should have to be collected from vehicles (e.g. galaxy) or air dropped (e.g. either by a galaxy or liberator, or a call in with a long cooldown). You know, ways that promote team work...

With so many light infantry around ammo will be practically unlimited :/

[EVILoHOMER]

It's funny because I don't like COD myself since after 4 but I have friends who play COD and they're some of the most hardcore gamers I know and would own most of you lot in FPS games.

Playing COD doesn't mean you suck, they can quite easily adapt to a new game and they do play other FPS games and are above 12...

[diLLa]

taken from my earlier post

"Those of us in outfit's.. yes this won't be a big issue

But there will be thousands of random's playing alone.. and you should know what is going to happen. the one's who do not choose a max or to fly.. they will choose light assault knowing they carry ammo.

It will be lone wolf city. All the ammo i'll need and a jetpack to get me in hard to reach places so I can just go for kills etc.

this is why I think this should be changed up some. I'm good with the idea of splitting up the class either carry jet packs or carry ammo packs etc. Doesn't have to be enginner was just a suggestion."
__________________

Ye, but being a light assault has it's own disadvantages though. I have full faith in SOE they will balance it if this will be imbalanced.

IMO people shouldn't worry too much about balance issues yet, since the values currently in place are estimations, and whatever will happen eventually on the battlefield will show what is wrong and what is right.

[diLLa]

It's funny because I don't like COD myself since after 4 but I have friends who play COD and they're some of the most hardcore gamers I know and would own most of you lot in FPS games.

Playing COD doesn't mean you suck, they can quite easily adapt to a new game and they do play other FPS games and are above 12...

Promod players are often time really good indeed. It's the console version that exists of kill whores to be honest. the PC community is pretty dedicated.

[bigcracker]

Got some bitter vets being bitter in this thread, If you give engy ammo then he can put down turrets and mines then rearm? That wouldnt be broken at all.

[Mechzz]

I'm not sure that with regenning health that we should give ammo boxes to someone who can get to the most awkward places.

So here's an idea I haven't seen before on how to resupply ammo:

Give the Max and HA the ability to drop ammo boxes but NOT their own ammo, only ammo for other classes.

Solves the lone-wolf problem but provides a way to preserve at least the spirit of the old practice of dropping a few ammo boxes at the top of the first flight of tower stairs.

[Top Sgt]

Promod players are often time really good indeed. It's the console version that exists of kill whores to be honest. the PC community is pretty dedicated.

problem is (towards Evilhomer/not you dilla) no one said cod players weren't any good. they tend to be especially good at camping and kill whoring. Exactly what were saying the LA kit will be especially adept for.

[diLLa]

problem is (towards Evilhomer) no one said cod players weren't any good. they tend to be especially good at camping and kill whoring. Exactly what were saying the LA kit will be especially adept for.

Well, I've played some promod myself, and I haven't experienced anything of the negativity you are portraying.

I think it also depends on what falls under camping, cause sneaking around the map not making noises and stop at certain spots to scan areas isn't camping in my book, and this is the most effective strategy on promod. To be honest watch any clanwars of CS or similar games and you will see players are cautious but not camping most of the times.

[Envenom]

If LA's keep the ammo alteast make the packs limited and they can only re arm 1 or 2 times total per life.

Agreed. I think that is a good compromise.

[Top Sgt]

your talking about pro mod.. but this game will not just be played by "pro mod" players

Anyways shifting this back on target.. i think the one guy's idea of LA being two different types work best.

The ones with jetpacks and another version with no jet packs but are fast and carry ammo to dish out.

[Bags]

Got some bitter vets being bitter in this thread, If you give engy ammo then he can put down turrets and mines then rearm? That wouldnt be broken at all.

Then make it so a box of bullets doesn't give you more mines and turrets?

[Zenben]

Ammo/Med packs don't belong in general .

^

[Mechzz]

your talking about pro mod.. but this game will not just be played by "pro mod" players

Anyways shifting this back on target.. i think the one guy's idea of LA being two different types work best.

The ones with jetpacks and another version with no jet packs but are fast and carry ammo to dish out.

This is a great way to ensure no ammo is ever dropped imo.

Better to not be able to drop ammo for their own guns and give another class the same ability, including LA ammo. (or do it with Max/HA as I suggested above)

[diLLa]

your talking about pro mod.. but this game will not just be played by "pro mod" players

Anyways shifting this back on target.. i think the one guy's idea of LA being two different types work best.

The ones with jetpacks and another version with no jet packs but are fast and carry ammo to dish out.

I am indeed, cause the PC community is focussed on that mod. Call of Duty 4 is the only true CoD game on the PC. The rest isn't really played much, and are far more popular on the consoles.

So if anyone would come from CoD and is interested in a more complex game, I'm fairly certain a grand part of that CoD group are from promod.

[Fenrys]

Ammo cases could be a thing that any infantry can carry in place of grenades/mines, with some resource cost. They would have a limited number of uses, and each use would give a limited amount of ammo.

Even MAX's could bolt an ammo or general resupply crate to their backsides, so their teammates could literally pull ammo and med juice out it's ass (but the MAX itself could not reach it). It should cost more than the infantry cases though, because of the modifications to the MAX, and hold more ammo.

[sylphaen]

If the Light Assault class is meant to be autonomous and attack from places other classes cannot reach, they should be given autonomous tools: limited self-heal and self-resupply (i.e. go to an engineer or equipment term to resupply once you have used up your abilities)

The other classes who share more synergies together should have more powerful and long lasting tools:
- Medics: micro-healing along with strong abilities like revives
- Assault engineers: small explosives (mines, etc...) along with larger abilities (deployable turrets, etc...)
- Support engineers: micro resupplies (going from people to people for ammo) along with strong abilities like an equipment terminal deployable (supplies a large pool of ammo once deployed but eventually runs out)

The concept of inventory limits from PS1 plays out in PS2 as class customization.

Anyways, that's how I see the classes and Light assault is really the lonewolf class along with infiltrators. I think it will be unlikely to find those tagging along with the regular classes during a firefight.

[Hamma]

I am from the camp that nobody should be able to drop ammo. ;)

[Canaris]

you know in APB they had a nice little idea that a player could activate a ammo reload, they pull out a crate and hunker down, making them vulnerable in this position and unable to shoot unless they exit the mode. I'm for field resupplying but it should have consequences and be tactical.

my 3 fiddy

[Blackwolf]

I'd rather see everyone have a "pass ammo" ability, as well as certs/sidegrades for armor that allow for extra ammo. Given the variety of ARs in the game, many of them can be geared to using the same ammo while many HA weapons might use the same ammo. This wouldn't work as well for AV weaponry since I suspect all the various AV weapons available will use different forms of ammo.

So break it down to cycler ammo, gauss ammo, power packs (VS batteries, which would be universal for all their weapons except AV weapons), chain gun belts, jack hammer drums, and whatever other ammo "clips" you might be carrying. Aim at a friendly and hit a button and you pass a clip of ammo normally used by the weapon you are currently holding automatically.

Limits the amount of ammo you can carry into battle to 2-6 clips depending on the weapon (lighter ARs might have 6 clips while MCGs only offer 2, which with the ammo in gun would be 300 rounds). With reserve ammo extending it by 1 or more clips depending on certs put into it, and passing a clip literally takes a clip from your reserves and gives it to the friendly you're aiming at.

All in all though, I think LA are the right troops for the ammo pack ability, if any one class is "the" class for it.

[JHendy]

Do we know whether ammo boxes will be infinite with a cooldown or needing to be resupplied at a terminal?

[Top Sgt]

Do we know whether ammo boxes will be infinite with a cooldown or needing to be resupplied at a terminal?

this we don't know yet.. big question that we need answered.

[JHendy]

this we don't know yet.. big question that we need answered.

I think it could potentially be the balancer that resolves the issue people are discussing in this topic.

[chanic]

Role-wise, it does seem strange to me that the light troops are the ones carrying the ammo, but at the same time I can't see another class that would be better, at the moment. Traditionally it's the machinegunners that carry the ammo in class-based shooters, but that role is taken by the Heavy Assault since they get the LMG weapon variants.

I think people are too worried about Light Assaults camping out in high places though. From what I saw of the E3 gameplay, they do not have nearly enough health to make it a viable strategy. They may get one or two kills, but if they stay in the same spot someone is going to find them and spot them, and then they will die in an instant.

I think the proper way to play a light assault is stick with a group, and use mobility to harass enemies that are already targeting your allies. In this role they would make good ammo carriers, because if anything spots them and shoots them, they will definitely have to retreat to the main group to get healed, at which point they can drop an ammo pack for everyone.

[RNFB]

Engineers should deploy a static ammo terminal that the enemies can blow up, and has limited production, with a long cooldown.

[Shade Millith]

As far as I'm concerned, no class should carry ammo packs. Or if they absolutely must, it should be a single use, then having to get to a inventory terminal to get another.

Spawning infinite ammunition from a spawnable class is not a good thing.

[JHendy]

Engineers should deploy a static ammo terminal that the enemies can blow up, and has limited production, with a long cooldown.

I actually really like the idea of a throw-down object, that forms a supply crate out of nanites, much the same as the deployable turret.

http://i.imgur.com/TLecC.jpg?3145

As opposed to a sorry looking gift-sized package...

[Knightwyvern]

I agree Light assault should not have ammo..is gonna lead to weird camping spots and it doesn't make sense.


Medic or engineer should have it.

*Click Click* "...wtf, where's my ammo!?" :D

But in all seriousness, perhaps the solution would just be that using it as a utility would give you a lot more ammunition, but throwing ammo consumes some of your own, instead of replenishing?

Remember guys, this is SCI-FI with hover tanks and laser guns. The key word for ammo packs is Nanites.

[Top Sgt]

Ha I was right!

They just confirmed on livestream (marg) that they are going to be switching the Ammo packs from the LA class to somewhere else.

it promotes lone play and they recognize that.

Question is who will get the ammo now?

[Envenom]

They just said in the live stream that LA's will not have the ability to resupply.

[Malorn]

I agree with that change. It definitely does promote solo play and brings LA down to being more team-dependent. However, I would like to see something replace the ammo-giving that gives LA something to bring to the team. There should be a good reason why you would want a LA in your squad. Ammo giving was a good reason, but since that is going away something teamwork/support oriented should replace it.

Fundamentally the LA is a flanking/scout/skirmisher class. It needs some teamwork value related to that to bring back to the squad. Some options...

1) They could have a wide variety of utility grenades, which could be used in conjunction with the jetpack to deploy accurately. Smoke, EMP, Plasma, Frag, Flares (for night illumination and to screw up thermal imaging) etc. Something like smoke and EMP and flares seems like something they should be able to use without spending resources. Those are non-lethal so it makes sense to me for them to be free and a Light Assault Perk. Its a good benefit to a squad that could utilize those grenades in a battle and make use of the flanking ability and make them desirable.

2) LA could carry more C4 than other classes. Their high mobility gives them the ability to get in close and actually use that C4. Since they lack other means of taking out vehicles this one. It also might not cost resources to use to encourage/provide an advantage to the class.

3) They could have some spotting enhancement, similar to the infiltrator. Maybe not as good at spotting as the infil, but better than the other classes. One advantage of mobility, height advantage, and jetpacks would be a better view of the surrounding area, so spotting makes sense to me here. They might have different spotting advantages than the infil. For example, perhaps the LA has better vehicle spotting than the Infiltrator.

4) They could capture things somewhat faster, making them good to bring along in a team and allowing them a little better harassment capabilities by allowing them to slip in, capture a point, and move out.


Just some raw ideas. I think they need something to replace ammo as teamwork benefits.

[The Kush]

They just said in the live stream that LA's will not have the ability to resupply.

this. glad to hear they are still listening:) best dev team

[Bags]

I feel engineer should, to give them a good front line role besides turrets, but HA could work too.

[Xyntech]

I don't think it would be too bad to give them to engineers. Just so long as they make sure that all of the other classes have a ton of diverse roles and abilities to contribute as well.

Medics could deploy healing stations for example.

[GhettoPrince]

I think setting up a supply depot is a perfect role for the engineer, they should totally have the ammo packs.

[Arokel]

I don't agree with ammo packs in general and I think that the jet packs are enough of a unique feature for the light assault. However, I don't think it will be game breaking if its left in.

[Zekeen]

Purrfect Storm has commented on the ammo system during today's stream.

They said it is not going to stay as it was in beta, and they are looking at removing it from light assault because using it with the jetpack was giving people a more lonewolf mentality.

[MrBloodworth]

While they are at it. Remove the Run-over-ammo-boxes too.

[Xyntech]

While they are at it. Remove the Run-over-ammo-boxes too.

It would be cool to see it require interact to pick up. Not a biggie, but would be nice.

[MrBloodworth]

It would be cool to see it require interact to pick up. Not a biggie, but would be nice.

I would prefer this as well. But honestly, I prefer ammo to be a resource that can be denied. ALA Terminals or deployed equipment.

[Malorn]

If the put it on engineers it may as well be a TF2 dispenser. At least then it is destroyable, and therefore can be denied.

[Xyntech]

I would prefer this as well. But honestly, I prefer ammo to be a resource that can be denied. ALA Terminals or deployed equipment.

As long as deployed ammo is limited, I think it will be okay.

The enemy needs to be able to destroy the ammo drop of course. It should have very weak hitpoints.

If the put it on engineers it may as well be a TF2 dispenser. At least then it is destroyable, and therefore can be denied.

Split it up and give the healing deployable to medics and I'm okay with this, especially if it's e to resupply ammo.

I'd be okay with the healing being automatic when within range, as long as it didn't heal you for something like 5 seconds after taking damage, and wasn't as quick as a medic healing you directly.

[MrBloodworth]

http://wiki.planetsidesyndicate.com/images/d/d0/AegisGenerator.jpg

http://wiki.planetsidesyndicate.com/images/f/f9/AegisInfo.jpg

http://wiki.planetsidesyndicate.com/images/4/4b/AegisAmmo.jpg


Bam.

[kaffis]

I don't want to see the engineer with a resupply deployable. That's straying way further into TF2 Engie-nest territory, whereas I'd prefer the PS2 Engineer to feel more like a traditional combatant than a glorified reclusive back-lines camper.

[Arokel]

I don't want to see the engineer with a resupply deployable. That's straying way further into TF2 Engie-nest territory, whereas I'd prefer the PS2 Engineer to feel more like a traditional combatant than a glorified reclusive back-lines camper.

Me too. I plan to play engineer as my main and want to do a more combat focused one. Sounds like they are giving us plenty of customization though so it shouldn't be too big of a problem

[SoNaR]

This might be the Battlefield side of me talking but... I would prefer if it was the Heavy Assault that had the ammo packs, although i'm fine with Engineers having them instead.

[chanic]

For anyone who missed it, on the stream today they said that they are planning on changing the class that carries ammo away from the light assault. They didn't say which class they are considering moving it to though.

[Knightwyvern]

I love engineers that can set up field bases. Due to the territory control system in PS2 there will be a lot more fighting in open areas where this capability would be very useful. Deployable turrets, shield gens, perhaps at a high level, vehicle repair and resupply points and cloaking fields; etc.

I'd love to play an engi like that.

[Masahiko]

You could give it ti Inf to make them more desirable in group play although we all know it will just turn into sniper on cliffs forever. Giving it to engy causes them to juggle a lot more and im not sure the trade off of repairing armor and giving ammo to maxses etc other than they would already be there. They seem like a must as is so they dont need it to enhance there usefulness.

At the same time i could see ha Sitting back with rockets going flying with unlimited ammo because of the ammo pack which would hurt maxses, armor and Air Cav. Its a tough balance place imo.

[Arokel]

^ This.

So far from the streams I don't know much about Engy PS2 since on TB's stream most are running around as LA. I don't even know if Engy fixes mags or scythes. All I seen an Engy do is place a turret. :/

In the E3 stream (I forgot which day) we saw and engineer repair a MAX. Stands to reason they will be able to repair vehicles as well. I think Higby mentioned laying mines as well when he did his stream with TB.

[DayOne]

And it seems most people have forgotten about the customisability in this game. If engineers have the ammo pack then perhaps they can't have the ACE and so become more of a combat engineer than a 100% support guy.

Light assault can't have the ammo packs as they are gonna be the forward assault force. HA should NOT have ammo packs. They already have a ton of ammo. Medics shouldn't as they are medics.

it makes sense for the engineer to have the ammo, so long as they have to trade something else out for it. :)

[Arokel]

And it seems most people have forgotten about the customisability in this game. If engineers have the ammo pack then perhaps they can't have the ACE and so become more of a combat engineer than a 100% support guy.

Light assault can't have the ammo packs as they are gonna be the forward assault force. HA should NOT have ammo packs. They already have a ton of ammo. Medics shouldn't as they are medics.

it makes sense for the engineer to have the ammo, so long as they have to trade something else out for it. :)

Yeah I think I and others ar falling into the trap of thinking like they are BF3 type classes.

[DayOne]

Yeah I think I and others ar falling into the trap of thinking like they are BF3 type classes.

Exactly. PS2 classes have so much potential for diversity within each class. This is something you cannot forget while discussing class balance.

[Arokel]

Exactly. PS2 classes have so much potential for diversity within each class. This is something you cannot forget while discussing class balance.

A big part of this problem is we don't know all that many details about the individual class customization and anything we do know can change.

[Antivide]

Engineers should be holding the frontlines with their team mates. Turrets allow them to do that and giving the ammo packs would make them even more crucial in keeping the frontline intact.

I'm pretty sure LA gets smoke grenades? Correct me if I'm wrong. Give him more special grenades to make him like a "jump jet grenadier" class.

[sylphaen]

Idea: a one-time use resurrection gadget for infiltrators or LA.
(of course, the trade off would be losing another module slot like grenades)

Yes or no ?

[ringring]

Judging from Purrfectstorm's comment on TB's live feed the DEVS have got this. In short she said that Light A. was a scout type role, moving on ahead and flanking while Engineer was the support role and more suited for supply.

She said this just after we'd witnessed a Light Assault drop an ammo pack on the roof of a building where ofc no one but a another Light Assaault could access it.

[Envenom]

Who needs ammo the most? Front line troops. Obvs LA's can't. (and won't) This means the only logical class would be the HA's.

I would be fine with this decision should they go in that direction.

[Knightwyvern]

Who needs ammo the most? Front line troops. Obvs LA's can't. (and won't) This means the only logical class would be the HA's.

I would be fine with this decision should they go in that direction.

The problem here is that you are giving the people who need the ammo, all the free ammo. This destroys teamwork just as much as the lone wolf mentality that was happening to LA. Inter-dependency is key.

[kaffis]

I love engineers that can set up field bases. Due to the territory control system in PS2 there will be a lot more fighting in open areas where this capability would be very useful. Deployable turrets, shield gens, perhaps at a high level, vehicle repair and resupply points and cloaking fields; etc.

I'd love to play an engi like that.
And I'd hate to have an engineer in a MBT completely trivialize the vehicular support role of a Sunderer. Vehicle repair (structures) and resupply points should be WAY out of an infantryman's scope, IMO. I'd rather see shield gens on a customized vehicle, too, and not see cloaking fields at all.

[Envenom]

The problem here is that you are giving the people who need the ammo, all the free ammo. This destroys teamwork just as much as the lone wolf mentality that was happening to LA. Inter-dependency is key.

Knightwyvern, I think you've raised a good point there. The question is, what is the role of an engineer? Assaulting in the front lines? I'd say no. They are more backline defence and base camping roles. It really doesn't make sense to stick them in the fray up front. What are your thoughts?

[Knightwyvern]

And I'd hate to have an engineer in a MBT completely trivialize the vehicular support role of a Sunderer. Vehicle repair (structures) and resupply points should be WAY out of an infantryman's scope, IMO. I'd rather see shield gens on a customized vehicle, too, and not see cloaking fields at all.

Then perhaps the trade off for having those utilities would be not being able to operate vehicles. Also I did forget about the Sunderer's repair field, so that bit can be ignored.

I like the idea of several engineers needing to collaborate in order to create the higher end stuff. More teamwork needed, bigger rewards for it.

Knightwyvern, I think you've raised a good point there. The question is, what is the role of an engineer? Assaulting in the front lines? I'd say no. They are more backline defence and base camping roles. It really doesn't make sense to stick them in the fray up front. What are your thoughts?

I think the intent of the class customization is to allow for many different play styles within each class. So, maybe you have a "siege engineer," a "fortification engineer," and a "combat engineer" much like the cert system in the original PS.

Using different utilities and cert customization, you could alter your Engi to fill whichever specific role you liked. Combat engi would have ammo crates, fortification engi would have a buff to wall turrets much like PS1, etc. Of course those are all just random ideas; but you get the picture.

[sylphaen]

Who needs ammo the most? Front line troops. Obvs LA's can't. (and won't) This means the only logical class would be the HA's.

I would be fine with this decision should they go in that direction.

Are you saying an assault role should go out of his way to resupply his support role teammates ? Let the medic guard the gates ?
:huh:

I think engineers should have the ammo role (along with the fortifications role, the explosive traps role, the forward MAX support role and the special assault role). It's not because engineers in TF2 are stuck with the turret camper stereotype that it means PS2 follows those narrow mindsets.

We already know that infiltrators get the sniper role, gadgeteer role and infiltration role.

Light Assault gets the high mobility forward assault/flanking role, harrass role and should focus on assaulting. They should also be given tools to be autonomous and have decent chances of coming to resupply when they go behind enemy lines. Infils should have tools for that too.

Heavy assault get the more durable front-lines assault role. They take the ground and hold it like infantry should. They are viable vs. any kind of opponent but need support.

MAX are the ultra-heavy spearheading assault role and ultimate ground holder. Their weakness is the need for very specialized support (the engineers).

Medics/engineers are not assault classes. They can be combat oriented but their role is NOT to hold the front line or make it move forward. They are here to consolidate the advances and prevent breakdowns in the war machine.

The reason I wrote all that is to explain how I see things and why I think the role of supplying other with ammo should be with the engineer:
- if it was LA, how are other classes supposed to follow a class that jumps walls and meant to always be moving around and probing defenses ?
- if it was infil, how are other classes supposed to go get ammo from a class who is either behind enemy lines or sniping away from the main fight ?
- if it was medic, why should they be able to heal others and/or also supply ammo to others ? What happens when people need both healing and resupplies ?
- MAXes/HA on ammo duty ? Why not but they are supposed to be on assault/guard/protection duty.
- Engineers are the right choice IMO because they are a support class and can work in parallel to medics. Of course, having support oriented options for engineers wouldn't mean you cannot be a combat engineer. Customization is key.

Imagine medics had a special grenade with large AoE that did damage over time ? Well, they would have to sacrifice a slot (e.g. their AoE revive grenade) for that more offensive oriented customization. They would still be playing a medic support role with revive/healgun being their staple skill.

Edit:
The question is, what is the role of an engineer? Assaulting in the front lines? I'd say no. They are more backline defence and base camping roles. It really doesn't make sense to stick them in the fray up front. What are your thoughts?

I think you are pigeon-holing a class into archetypal roles needlessly. Open your mind because Planetside's scale will open up your world !

[kaffis]

I like the idea of several engineers needing to collaborate in order to create the higher end stuff. More teamwork needed, bigger rewards for it.
The Sunderer and Galaxy both act as resupply points for infantry, as well. Which is why I'm not keen on the notion of constructable ammo supplies. But on to the bit I quoted.

I do like this idea. Creating larger, beefier, and/or more dangerous field fortifications with multiple engineers could definitely feel very cool.


I'm still not sold on moving ammo boxes away from LA. I think the notion of a lone wolf will just follow the ammo boxes around, and that the LA is probably the most vulnerable option to give it to -- the idea being that the vulnerability, once the player recognizes it, will discourage the lone wolfing. Or, at the very least, the vulnerability will limit its efficacy.

[sylphaen]

I'm still not sold on moving ammo boxes away from LA. I think the notion of a lone wolf will just follow the ammo boxes around, and that the LA is probably the most vulnerable option to give it to -- the idea being that the vulnerability, once the player recognizes it, will discourage the lone wolfing. Or, at the very least, the vulnerability will limit its efficacy.

IMO, LA should not need to distribute ammo to other classes. They only need to be able to get ammo and HP while they are flanking behind enemy lines, away from their team.
e.g.: limited amount of medkits to self-heal, extra ammo packs.

When they run out of autonomous options, they move back to their team to resupply their kit.

That way, you have lone wolves but they work in the vicinity of their teams. Or at least, they have a risk of overextending/being cut from their main supplies and a large incentive to help the front line (and thus their support classes) be closer to them.

Without jetpacks, going around a wall can be complicated for a standard class. With jetpacks, it's only a few jumps away.

It will always be a better option for LA to move back to their support classes than the contrary. Infiltrators are another issue and should be given options that give them more autonomy (e.g. nanite generator that can be converted to health or ammo and whose energy replenishes slowly over time).

EDIT: FYI, I feel like while both the LA and infiltrator class are mean to play "behind enemy line" roles, one is meant to stay they longer -cloak- and the other is meant to get there (or out of there) faster -jetpacks-. Similar roles, different gameplay.

Note that while we have seen capture-the-flag gameplay at E3, there will likely be other capture/objectives mechanics in the game such as hack&hold or seek&destroy for which LA and infils will play a more important role.

[NewSith]

I would actually love to see Ammo Packs for *tudum* MEDICS! I mean with all the info we have (as in "medics only own close range weaponry") it really seems as if medic is about to become 90% support class. So why not give medics an ability to give people some candy after healing them?

PS: Bear in mind that I was too lazy to read through any post other than OP, even the one above mine, so sorry if I missed anything.

[Synapse]

Give class and weapon scouting to light assault (discussed on livestream)

and give ammo packs to heavy assault.

[sylphaen]

I would actually love to see Ammo Packs for *tudum* MEDICS! I mean with all the info we have (as in "medics only own close range weaponry") it really seems as if medic is about to become 90% support class. So why not give medics an ability to give people some candy after healing them?

PS: Bear in mind that I was too lazy to read through any post other than OP, even the one above mine, so sorry if I missed anything.

I wouldn't mind a class called "support" where you could customize your role. However, I'd say it is easier to not merge the classes and keep the dedicated support roles separated; people could get confused about "is that guy medic spec or repair spec".

In terms of gameplay, clear roles makes it more interesting/challenging/fun when you know what skillset you have taken away from your enemies during your assault (e.g. "they can't revive anymore/they have no repairs anymore" vs. "one support guy is down").

[NewSith]

I wouldn't mind a class called "support" where you could customize your role. However, I'd say it is easier to not merge the classes and keep the dedicated support roles separated; people could get confused about "is that guy medic spec or repair spec".

In terms of gameplay, clear roles makes it more interesting/challenging/fun when you know what skillset you have taken away from your enemies during your assault (e.g. "they can't revive anymore/they have no repairs anymore" vs. "one support guy is down").

No, what I mean is Ammo Boxes exclusively to a medic, along with his healgun. Why? Because in theory medics are the last line in the class offense line.

Here's the elaboration top = front:

MAX, Heavy Assault - hard hitting tough vanguard. Giving them ammo is not exactly a wise idea, because they're not designed for support, though they can drop ammo, because they'll be the first to enter fights, people will pick their ammo after them. Problem is - they'll be only throwing ammo for themselves, not the team.
Engineer - balanced offensive and defensive capabilities, alongside with being a pilot class basically.
Medic - Healer class, no matter how you look at it. If the CQB info about them is still correct, of course. If not, they go in line with Engies.
Infiltrator, Light Assault - two standalone classes, that are VERY bad choice for an ammo pack, because they will always be anywhere, BUT in the mob.

As you can see - the best choice for an ammo pack is either a medic or an engie. Assault can have it, but people playing HA are rarely people realising that they also have to support their teammates. Same thing you can see with support class in BF3, that has default LMG being more effective than assault rifles even at long range. The worst choice is obviously infil and LA, and I said why above.

[T MAN]

I would think engineer would be best, he could build a resupply thing of some sort, like in TF2 and section 8 etc.

[sylphaen]

No, what I mean is Ammo Boxes exclusively to a medic, along with his healgun. Why? Because in theory medics are the last line in the class offense line.

Here's the elaboration top = front:

MAX, Heavy Assault - hard hitting tough vanguard. Giving them ammo is not exactly a wise idea, because they're not designed for support, though they can drop ammo, because they'll be the first to enter fights, people will pick their ammo after them. Problem is - they'll be only throwing ammo for themselves, not the team.
Engineer - balanced offensive and defensive capabilities, alongside with being a pilot class basically.
Medic - Healer class, no matter how you look at it. If the CQB info about them is still correct, of course. If not, they go in line with Engies.
Infiltrator, Light Assault - two standalone classes, that are VERY bad choice for an ammo pack, because they will always be anywhere, BUT in the mob.

As you can see - the best choice for an ammo pack is either a medic or an engie. Assault can have it, but people playing HA are rarely people realising that they also have to support their teammates. Same thing you can see with support class in BF3, that has default LMG being more effective than assault rifles even at long range. The worst choice is obviously infil and LA, and I said why above.

Check my posts, we do agree.
:)

If anything, I wouldn't mind seeing both medics and engineers with ammo packs. They still have their distinctive roles (revives and utilities) but both would then be useful for helping the other classes work because ammo is important.

I just do not like the idea of infinite ammo packs drops so much so I would make ammo packs limited and give to the engineer a deployable unit (like the PS1 FDUs) which would resupply all ammo types including ammo packs (like the galaxy/sunderer - but without the option to change of class). With only 1 or 2 deploys allowed, it would force bringing a galaxy/sunderer to move further into the base lest people run out of ammo. Supply chain effect !
^^

Of course, it's impossible to know how this could play out given the current fast pace of the game. We need beta.

[Zolan]

To be quite honest, I don't think anyone needs an ammo pack.

It would be much more beneficial to mimic the original Planetside rather than the Battlefield franchise.

If anything, make the ammo pack a selectable ability with tradeoffs.

[Hamma]

Purrfect Storm has commented on the ammo system during today's stream.

They said it is not going to stay as it was in beta, and they are looking at removing it from light assault because using it with the jetpack was giving people a more lonewolf mentality.

This is good to hear :D

[OutlawDr]

I don't mind the idea of ammo packs. If we just stuck to what PS1 did, PS2 wouldn't even have half the cool features its currently looking to have. So yes, I don't mind ammo packs, -IF- they are limited, one-time use items. Players can run out of them and need to restock at a terminal. I'd also rather have players need to interact with them, and not simply run over them.

I also don't mind static, player made supply stations. Enemies can always destroy it, and it would require a player to specialize in it with associated tradeoffs.

Now the big question is which class gets it. If Light Assault is not going to get it, then yeah.. engineer would make the most sense. However engineers are already laden with many varied roles: its got the ACE (turrets, mines ect..), its the point defense class, MAX/vehicle repair, team-covering portable shields, and like someone said essentially THE pilot/driver class.

Light assault on the other hand is looking very limited, very one dimensional, and it might now lose its one tool that gave it some use in a squad. Im sure jumpjets will allow players to get creative, but creativity is not limited to this class and other classes have a wider range of roles and play-styles to choose from. I do agree that current implementation of Light Assault and its ammopack is not ideal. But ammo pack or no ammo pack, light assault is going to be favored by lone wolves. And I actually don't mind if they do have have ammo packs.....BUT with tradeoffs. If players want to have jump jets that allow them great mobility, then the ammo pack tool they can get should be rather limited. It should allow for a couple refills, but no more. It gives the light assault some degree of independence, but its not the cornucopia of ammo like it is now.

If a light assault player wants to be more useful to a squad, they should have that option...they need that option really. Allow them to specialize in having a greater ammo pack capacity thats squad friendly ...and/or the ability to deploy that ammo crate. The trade-off being that his jump jet capabilities are limited...such as the JJ's fuel recharging much slower or long cooldown to use. This JJ is not going to be as useful in combat like we seen in the videos, and would be better suited as a last ditch escape tool and limited to one off repositioning now and then.

Bottomline, I say keep ammopacks with LA. Add tradeoffs and fully flesh out the LA class before hastily giving ammopack to classes that don't really need it.

[Top Sgt]

Turns out The devs listened huh Engineer's as the jack of all trades class FTW

[DarkApothecary]

if every class gets 1 or 2 ammo packs then there would be no need, and just give the light assault like a little drone they can fly around or something, idk.

[GreatMazinkaise]

The MAST (assuming it does what I think it does) completely eliminates the need for ammo drops. Portable inventory stations + the stations that some of the capture points will presumably have will be able to keep an attackers fully supplied with sufficient ammunition.

This is completely ignoring the Galaxy/Sunderer terminals.

[Rivenshield]

I'm really, really leery of making resupply so easy it ceases to be a factor in-game. Logistics and supply was one of the elements that made PS1 world class. No ANTs, pull ammo out of your arse.....

/le sigh

[Zulthus]

^


I really wish you need to resupply at an equipment terminal. Ammo boxes are just too easy.

[Coveringfire]

I haven't read the entire thread so if this has already been mentioned then I apologize. What about making it so Ammo boxes can't be used by the people that dispense them? Then the Light Assault role becomes very important because they need to move ahead of the rest of the army and put ammo in strategic places to ensure that the attack doesn't falter. Plus it would stop them being able to sit in really high places with almost infinite ammo just killing everybody..

[SergeantNubins]

Thread is too long, didn't read, but in case it's not already been mentioned; in the day 3 e3 stream they say that light assault probably wont have ammo packs in the final game, it will likely be another class that has them, as it doesnt really suit the light assault style of gameplay.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

I think we should have customisable inventories like the good old days, or more bullets in the default kit.

If that's not to happen then I think that the Engy is the best choice for ammo carrying, but only as a dispenser mechanic (like TF2 but not so cheezy)

If not Engy (because it would be a pretty much "must have" along with the 15 other "must have" items they already have to carry) Then HA is the next most obvious candidate, using a "throw them a mag" style implementation (like Brink)

[StumpyTheOzzie]

Yeah, I'll be engying it up so personal ammo is low on my list.

Can we carry ammo for tanks though?

[Zenben]

Ammo/Med packs don't belong in general .

This, but if they really MUST be in, I would prefer they be on HA and no other class.

[Deadeye]

This, but if they really MUST be in, I would prefer they be on HA and no other class.

I can see HA getting ammo boxes. If the HA guys are equiped with LMGs they would be akin to the Support class in BF3 and I think the LMG guys in 2142 had ammo too. They need the ammo to lay down suppression fire so they could use more of it.

I don't know why people are against an ammo carrier. The logistics stuff in planetside didn't actually improve gameplay, just made it more tedious. You know who is actually the ammo carrier in Planetside? The hacker. Why? Because he hacked the enemy consoles and you could change gear and get more ammo that way. So why be roundabout when you could just give a guy ammo crates?

You'll still need the galaxy as a spawn point, so that's still got its role and the sunderer is still needed to plow into the enemy base (though in reality I can't see it being used much because the lighter transports weren't used much in PS1 either because everyone just brought their own tank or mosquito).

[Littleman]

Hrmm... can't say I really mind which class the ammo boxes go to, as all classes will see their fair share of soloists, some more than others.

But I think we're too focused on the negatives to the positives, and taking E3 footage too seriously as a snapshot of how the game will work a year from now with thousands of players.

We're also lacking a lot of intel on the classes.

An LA with ammo boxes is good in a squad for scouting, flanking, and re-arming allies. They have shorter ranged weaponry, hopefully that means if their perch is outside of a grenade toss in distance, they won't be too much of a threat. They're also very lightly armored. It's not like they can strike with impunity, shoot back for ****s sake. It's also not like your team doesn't have LA that can reach the same position, or air craft that will hunt them down.

HA is already the tougher soldier, bringing a lot of firepower to a fight. They lack maneuverability, and will need the aid of medics to keep fighting when they suffer injury. Giving them an ammo pack would improve their allure, as right now MAXes can pretty much cover the exact same role, only deadlier, unless HA already brings something a MAX can't.


Engineers do follow the support role very well. It would make sense for them to be the guys that keep the war machine well oiled. The issue might be giving them too much to worry about. If their roles become too overwhelming, people will eventually find the least demanding aspects to use.

Medics: I say no to medics because self healing and arming would definitely be too OP.

Personally, I prefer if LA did get ammo boxes, or no one at all.

[Meriv]

reason LA is likely losing the ammo job is because it is seen a weak support link.
.

it is not the only support that he has, he will have smoke grenade for helping HA advance, emp ones(not sure) etc.. Etc... Plus I don't think that a group of la will take the base alone without the other classes firepower, soo I see no problem for him to have a support side.

[Pillar of Armor]

I like the idea that LA should either have a jet pack or ammo pack, not both. That, or LA should be able to drop ammo packs, but not use them at all.

If HA carried ammo, they would be ridiculously OP.

[Littleman]

HA does bring something a max can't, a Scythe, Mossie, Reaver. HA can fly those, a max can't.

Since we're talking teamplay aspects, not sure how their capability to pilot aircraft - when it's the squad make-up consisting of foot-mobiles we're concerned with - is of any relevance. Anyone besides a max can pilot an aircraft. It's a pretty null point.

What do HA bring to a squad that MAXes don't? Hacking? Medics, engis, LA, and infils can do that too. Don't need an HA hacking when he should be guarding a door, only a MAX is better at guarding said door.

Ammo packs on an HA seem OP, since it gives them unlimited ammo (if paced) but they're much softer targets than a MAX.

LA however are only really good against foot-mobiles, and have inaccurate weaponry to boot. But they do have the ability to find unique perches. HA are grunts in power armor.

Hrm... I take back what I said: HA fit the bill the best. I WANT them to be the lynch pin of everyone's ammo woes. LA will stick within close proximity. MAXes will feed off of them, and HA can keep up their own fire making them a different form of reliable asset to the squad.

[Meriv]

I like the idea that LA should either have a jet pack or ammo pack, not both. That, or LA should be able to drop ammo packs, but not use them at all.


Why not both? their carabine got 10 meters optimal range it is not like they will get to X point unreachable by the others classes and camp there they just don't have the range.

[Pillar of Armor]

why their carabine got 10 meters optimal range it is not like they will get to X point unreachable by the others classes and camp there they just don't have the range.

10 meters = 32ish feet = 3 stories = significant elevation advantage. Couple that with burst fire, and they should have enough accuracy and range to get kills from a hard to reach position. On the E3 footage I saw tons of elevated positions that had plenty of cover that no other class could reach.

[SergeantNubins]

On the E3 footage I saw tons of elevated positions that had plenty of cover that no other class could reach.

Except for maxes with jump jets.

[Meriv]

10 meters = 32ish feet = 3 stories = significant elevation advantage. Couple that with burst fire, and they should have enough accuracy and range to get kills from a hard to reach position. On the E3 footage I saw tons of elevated positions that had plenty of cover that no other class could reach.

Ok this is not a unreacheable zone but i want to show the effectivness of their weapon in long range for camping.

I know it is a ENG but the weapon will be still a caribine for the LA.He discharged all his ammunition and he got a single hit....

Soo i think it is not big problem for the rest of the classes to have the LA with ammo supply.

http://youtu.be/fLakXgelJGY?t=55m

[Timealude]

10 meters = 32ish feet = 3 stories = significant elevation advantage. Couple that with burst fire, and they should have enough accuracy and range to get kills from a hard to reach position. On the E3 footage I saw tons of elevated positions that had plenty of cover that no other class could reach.

or a sniper shell

[YaJackWagon]

Plenty of equally valid ideas in this thread.


The "resupply/full heal at Sunderers, Galaxys, and base terminals" idea would be a nice change of pace in today's FPSs... although, getting a sunderer inside a base during an assault to act as a resupply seems difficult (but I guess that's the point).


If we can't limit it to the above option - my preferred solution would be giving ammo responsibilities to "Medic" and renaming it "Support."

I'd suggest giving him the option of heal gun ("overheats" of course) vs. droppable ammo pack (limited of course) vs. a TF2 style "dispenser" that can be customized as all healing, healing-ammo, or all ammo. But have the healing-ammo version give out stuff at slightly less than half the rate of a dedicated one, and the heal gun and ammo pack have slightly less than the "dual dispenser."



any glaring problems with that?

[Meriv]

that you should give medic a nerf to his fire power since he is able to use assault rifles and if you do that the medic will have just the option to play as "support" while right now their intention is to give you a choice between a support medic or a fighter one

[YaJackWagon]

you could still choose I think...

hefty smg for the dispenser
carbine if you want AoE versions of the mobile support options
assault rifle if you want targeted versions of the mobile support options



balancing tradeoffs might get complicated though....

which is why I most like the idea of resupplying and significant healing/repairing next to a sunderer or galaxy.

[Furber]

As someone who's very excited about playing a Light Assault, I feel like ammo drop is out of place for LA's. The engineer being a support class, like the medic, would indeed be a better choice for ammo drop so they can support their allies in yet another way. Im curious to see what the LA's will be able to do in place of ammo drop, hopefully something good!

[SergeantNubins]

Light assault feels more like a special forces type of role, harrasing, quick response, that kind of thing. I think some of what they do crosses with infiltrators, so if they replace the ammo drop i think the ability to use some form of devices would be good - perhaps timed or triggered explosives (either ones for damaging vehicles or ones for damaging infantry, but not both). Or shorter cooldowns on handgrenades, something like this. Light assault and heavy assault should be focused on assault, not crossed over with support functions, in my opinion.

[Pillar of Armor]

Ok this is not a unreacheable zone but i want to show the effectivness of their weapon in long range for camping.

I know it is a ENG but the weapon will be still a caribine for the LA.He discharged all his ammunition and he got a single hit....

Soo i think it is not big problem for the rest of the classes to have the LA with ammo supply.

http://youtu.be/fLakXgelJGY?t=55m

I see what you mean with the carbine, but as a halo reach player I've seen the problems caused by jetpack mobility. Often jetpackers find some random nook that they can shoot out of, but is virtually impossible for others to shoot into. This is not so much of a problem when the ammo pool is fairly limited because they won't be able to hold the position for too long, but when LA can keep spawning ammo it can become really frustrating for other players (in halo, max ammo for AR and pistol is enough for 10+ kills).

My biggest concern is that it will encourage lonewolf players to find and abuse terrain exploits. Making some sort of trade off for ammo supply on LA would easily fix the issue.

[Rumblepit]

said it before and ill say it again, HA should carry ammo packs. they should have a support roll aswell.

[Jinxsey]

Why not make ammo packs a certable "secondary" slot that replaces your heavy weapon or special item.

[GreatMazinkaise]

I'd like to see a return of the T2 portable inventory stations (you can't switch your class or get additional inventory stations, but you can re-arm/change class loadout). If the MAST is this then it'll be awesome.

[Trafalgar]

Back when I was playing Star Wars: Battlefront (the first one), on public servers, and 80-90% of the players on public servers were playing the rocket launcher troops or emp-rocket jetpack troopers (depending on availability due to factions), and I pretty much never saw any team coordination at all, I usually played a pilot class instead for the ammo/health pack ability and especially when they had a handheld mortar launcher weapon.

That game provides an example of how is possible to make a class that is extremely powerful for a single player operating on his own, provided that player is sufficiently skilled, which is something we probably don't want to happen in PlanetSide 2 (but how was player skill important in PS1?). In SW:BF, it came down to several factors:


Anyone can dodge to the side rapidly (which I do like)
Most of the players use one-shot-per-clip OHK weapons which take over a second to reload (e.g. rocket launcher)
You can jump over mines (dropped by rocket launcher troops) without setting them off (requires skill and spotting them)
Two of the factions (only two factions are available on each map) have the pilot class have a handheld mortar cannon (grenade launcher or radiation launcher which both work equally well), which is OHK on direct hit and reloads faster than the rocket launcher or emp rocket launcher and has an arcing trajectory. (The rebel pilot has a shotgun and the clone pilot a terribad gun)
Pilot has dispensable health/ammo packs
Pilot is able to repair health and ammo droids
Pilot auto-repairs vehicles while piloting them


Of course it did make it a very skill based game, in that only very skilled people were able to beat the rocket-launcher-and-mine hordes or consistently win rocket launcher duels. I had fun playing SW:BF, but I would not want to see everyone running around with OHK weapons in PS2 with the expectation that everyone has to dodge them to survive.

(I don't think anyone should be able to self-refill ammo. It seems everyone but MAXes self-heal automatically already, though. Use fixed ammo depots, galaxies, etc, or something.)

[SpcFarlen]

Why not make ammo packs a certable "secondary" slot that replaces your heavy weapon or special item.

Thats what i was actually thinking about with heavy assault. Have a trade off between your rocket launcher or ammo pack. I never liked the idea of LA ever having ammo packs. They are LIGHT assault. They are meant to get into the fight fast and get ground advantage quickly while the other troops storm in on foot. So giving them added weight (slightly talking on realistic side, so take it or leave it) just doesnt seem logical or role fulfilling.

But i wouldnt be apposed to engineers having ammo either. Deploying turrets and mines limits them to being very defense heavy since once those are used they can no be picked back up (possibly mines can, but mines are never very offensive of an asset). So giving them ammo packs may allow them to branch into more offensive roles because everything else makes them a defensive support. Though they made need a trade off in terms of they dont get mines as an example.

[Rago]

Lets try the Gamplay First, im pretty used to that the Engineer has the Harder Job, but that does not mean you cant be a Good player for your Team ;)

I love Landmines :P

[DviddLeff]

Agreed with original idea that engies should drop ammo.

[super pretendo]

Engineer or HA makes sense. Engineers will probably build "nests" or forward safe spots, so it makes sense to have ammo at their protected places

[Ratstomper]

I remember higby mentioning in one of the PS1 stream chats that they're thinking about giving ammo drops to the engy, so I think this idea is already underway.

[Top Sgt]

I remember higby mentioning in one of the PS1 stream chats that they're thinking about giving ammo drops to the engy, so I think this idea is already underway.

correct

[SergeantNubins]

I remember higby mentioning in one of the PS1 stream chats that they're thinking about giving ammo drops to the engy, so I think this idea is already underway.

The lady whose name escapes me but is a games designer at SOE and does a lot of their PR stuff on PS2 also said it in one of the live streams from E3.

[GreatMazinkaise]

The lady whose name escapes me but is a games designer at SOE and does a lot of their PR stuff on PS2 also said it in one of the live streams from E3.

PurrfectStorm (unknown number of Rs)... the VS talking head with the lip ring.

[Robotix]

I honestly think Engineers have enough stuff going on as it is. What would we have to give up to carry around ammo packs anyways?

[indirect]

Ammo/Med packs don't belong in general .

Old post, I'm sure it got beat to hell - but completely disagree. We don't have nonstatic inventories anymore. They are a necessity.

[GreatMazinkaise]

I honestly think Engineers have enough stuff going on as it is. What would we have to give up to carry around ammo packs anyways?

Presumably it'd be a function of the new ACE, so... almost nothing?

[Vydofnir]

I plan on playing LA quite a bit, and I don't feel like ammo packs would fit particularly well with my intended playstyle. That being said, I don't feel that my playstyle should be the only playstyle available to the LA. Even though I don't want ammo packs personally, the LA should have support-oriented options available in the cert tree. If infiltrators can trade their long-range weapon loadout for a longer cloak, it makes sense to me that a LA could be able to have ammo packs at the cost of being limited to close-range weapons like shotguns. I rather like the idea of the jump pack being used to resupply troops at different positions along the front line as it allows for a degree of coordination between the LA and HA classes.

I think some people might be losing sight of the fact that, while engineers have many responsibilities, it's not likely that they will be expected or even able to do all of these at once. Considering the aforementioned infiltrator example, I think any given engineer loadout is going to focus on no more than a couple of responsibilities at once. If you want to play the role of pilot, you probably won't be equipped to build turrets or lay mines. I see no reason that ammo distribution shouldn't be just one more branch on the engineers' cert tree to be explored at the individual players discretion.

With regards to the HA, it seems fair to me that they should be able to cert into carrying ammo packs at the expense of being able to equip an LMG primary. That would increase their versatility in one sense (squad support), whilst limiting it in another (fire support). Either way the HA can keep their rocket launcher/jackhammer/etc. and stay true to whatever their main heavy support role might be.

Ammo packs make sense in PS2, but I don't think they are vital to any class in the way that healing is to medics or repairing is to engineers. It seems to me that ammo drops make the most sense as a facet of the cert tree open to multiple classes, but forced on none.

[MrSmegz]

I agree with Ammo being a trade-off for LA's Jumpjet, and HA's Shield boost. but make it take an item slot of some kind and you can only drop one, until you hit an equipment terminal again. That way players don't spam these things just to farm resupply points in stagnate battles. (See: Operation Metro)

[RageMasterUK]

It makes perfect sense for LA to have ammo packs. LA can get to me faster than any other class if I am out of ammo. If u need ammo, would you not want it as quick as possible? LA's are best suited to service in this capacity.

If they DIDNT have ammo packs they would be MORE likely to be lone-wolfers. Without your ammo caddy role, what would keep you close to your squad? Nothing. You'd fly off without a care for your friendlies. Everyone talking ammo out of the LA class I feel are encouraging LA lone wolfing. Some of these posts read like players actually want LA to be a lone wolf class!

Alot of you folks have the fear I think that they're gonna fly up ontop of a perch, ammo box themselves and lone wolf. Alot of players are forgetting that LA will most likely get an nice XP incentive for giving teammates ammunition. You think they'd want to miss out on XP? Would you? Ofcourse not. You are not factoring this into gameplay right now. LA are going to be giefing out ammo like candy for this reason.

Light Assault will be the second quickest class to kill. Do you honestly believe they're gonna survive long enough to top themselves up with ammo? Im willing to bet the majority of LA lone wolfers will get killed before they hit their special key. They will be seeking medics way before they worry about their own ammo supply. And when they find their medic, they gonna have nothin to give back in return if u take the ammo off them :(

E3 booth-players could care less about their XP, so please do not cite those videos to back your claims of LA lone-wolfing. It is after a few weeks people will have settled into their roles, not after 30 minutes.

Engineers have far too much on their plate already it seems. No to engineer ammo.

AMMO IS ESSENTIAL TO SQUAD SURVIVAL. Currently, LA is essential to squads. Removing ammo drops from LA makes them non-essential squadmembers IMHO. Giving ammo to engineers makes them SUPER ESSENTIAL. This creates class imbalance.

This is just how I feelz about this :D

-RageMasterUK

[mintyc]

i am gona go through each class and give you my 2p...

Light Assult - yeah i can see why this could cause and issue, they are more hit and run shock troops and the rest of the army wouldent be able to reach the ammo packs, as they would probably be on a roof or some other safe spot that the LA would then run back to rearm and recharge.

takeing the ammo pack away from the LA also might leave the class a little flat, perhaps the answer is to give them a larger granade capacity and some realy funky grenades, spider bomb anyone? :D


Enginer - seen lots surgesting this class should have ammo packs, from what i can tell from screen shots and vids the enginer alredy has an ace deplyable resurply term for ammo and granades, so giveing them ammo packs too would be a little redundant.


Combat Medic - i know some dont like this on lore grounds but from the point of view of enforceing squad cohesion its not that bad an idea. i mean how far would you stary from the guy who could heal, rez and give you ammo?

i actualy like this idea rather alot, haveing an option to load out a CM with a load of surport gear and form the heart of a squad while still keeping the option to be more combat focued and carry less surport gear just healing and rezing when needed.


Infiltrator - i have to admit the idea of being a sniper with my own ammo surply is very apealing but the trade off would have to be rather big (no cloak maybe?) to stop it from being stupidly over powered.


Heavy Assualt - some have sugested that you should have the option to take an ammo pack or the personal shield. thats not a bad idea, an option between short term survivability or haveing more staying power in a long fight.

i think this is a realy good idea but it would probably be agood idea to have it be a mid cert tree upgrade just to give players some time with the shield so that they can learn to use it properly.

-----------

personaly i would like to see the combat medic and the heavy assualt both get acess to ammo pack loadout options, this combined with the enginers superior resurply term should give a good ammo surply on the front line while giveing flexability to the clases that have access to them.

[RageMasterUK]

Light Assult - yeah i can see why this could cause and issue, they are more hit and run shock troops and the rest of the army wouldent be able to reach the ammo packs, as they would probably be on a roof or some other safe spot that the LA would then run back to rearm and recharge.

If the LA in your squad put the ammo pack out of reach then he is an idiot.

With the greatest maneuverability of all classes its the LA's responsibility to make sure he puts the ammo pack near his squad. This is how the LA's will get their support XP. If your LA's dont do this properly then you should consider kicking them out of your squad.

Most LA's will perform this role well without pressure from their peers, if there is an apt XP reward for rearming friendlies, which there will be. LA's WILL WANT TO PUT THEIR AMMO PACK WHERE IT WILL GET THE MOST USAGE.


Combat Medic - i know some dont like this on lore grounds but from the point of view of enforceing squad cohesion its not that bad an idea. i mean how far would you stary from the guy who could heal, rez and give you ammo?

This kinda defeats your previous point about the Light Assaults putting ammo packs out of reach.

Surely the LA are going to want to be healed too, therefore they will WANT TO REJOIN THEIR SQUAD ANYWAY and will get an opportunity to drop their ammo pack right next to their medic, and every other squaddie wanting heals. LA are not going to stray from medics, they want health too, so you still have health and ammo in the same place w/o putting it all on one class. Giving engineers/medics everything team related is not the way to make teamplay more viable. If medics could heal themselves AND rearm, this would increase the chances of turning the medic class into lone wolves.

Just my meandering conjecture and opinion mind....

-RageMasterUK

[mintyc]

If the LA in your squad put the ammo pack out of reach then he is an idiot.

this game is f2p + internet. what sort of the idiot to none-idiot ratio do you think we are gona get?



With the greatest maneuverability of all classes its the LA's responsibility to make sure he puts the ammo pack near his squad. This is how the LA's will get their support XP. If your LA's dont do this properly then you should consider kicking them out of your squad.

Most LA's will perform this role well without pressure from their peers, if there is an apt XP reward for rearming friendlies, which there will be. LA's WILL WANT TO PUT THEIR AMMO PACK WHERE IT WILL GET THE MOST USAGE.

with the greatest manuvrability i would much prefer the LA to be seting up flanking positions for a nice crossfire, harrying the enemy and spliting ther fire, not hanging around in the main squad.

with an ammo pack a LA trooper would probably nest in a high up position thus removeing the need to move as a result of runing low on ammo. this extra time spent nesting would allow the enemy to respond with ground troops or ther own LA on mass. this will probably get the LA killed in a position that the teams medic cant get to and all of a sudden the team has lost its most manuvrable member and its ammo surply.

so now you are in a position wher bad players run off with ther ammo packs and get themselves killed, and good players know that there squad cant afford them geting killed trying to flank.


This kinda defeats your previous point about the Light Assaults putting ammo packs out of reach.

Surely the LA are going to want to be healed too, therefore they will WANT TO REJOIN THEIR SQUAD ANYWAY and will get an opportunity to drop their ammo pack right next to their medic, and every other squaddie wanting heals. LA are not going to stray from medics, they want health too, so you still have health and ammo in the same place w/o putting it all on one class. Giving engineers/medics everything team related is not the way to make teamplay more viable. If medics could heal themselves AND rearm, this would increase the chances of turning the medic class into lone wolves.

Just my meandering conjecture and opinion mind....

-RageMasterUK

LA are, thanks to ther high manuvrability a high risk/high reward class with lower survivability than the other frontline troops in a stand up fire fight. LA survivability stems from there ability to escape from heavyer threats and reposition rapidly. so the LA will ether take light damage that will not need them to run back to a medic or big damage from being flanked or surprised, this would probably kill the LA outright due to low armour.

the Combat Medic would make a very poor lone wolf as it lacks the armour, heavy wepons and manuvrability to deal efectivly with Heavy assult troops, MAX's and vehicles on ther own. this means that the best place for a CM is wher they can get the surport of other tooper types and this is also the place that needs the most healing and ammo.

[Sledgecrushr]

It makes perfect sense for LA to have ammo packs. LA can get to me faster than any other class if I am out of ammo. If u need ammo, would you not want it as quick as possible? LA's are best suited to service in this capacity.

If they DIDNT have ammo packs they would be MORE likely to be lone-wolfers. Without your ammo caddy role, what would keep you close to your squad? Nothing. You'd fly off without a care for your friendlies. Everyone talking ammo out of the LA class I feel are encouraging LA lone wolfing. Some of these posts read like players actually want LA to be a lone wolf class!

Alot of you folks have the fear I think that they're gonna fly up ontop of a perch, ammo box themselves and lone wolf. Alot of players are forgetting that LA will most likely get an nice XP incentive for giving teammates ammunition. You think they'd want to miss out on XP? Would you? Ofcourse not. You are not factoring this into gameplay right now. LA are going to be giefing out ammo like candy for this reason.

Light Assault will be the second quickest class to kill. Do you honestly believe they're gonna survive long enough to top themselves up with ammo? Im willing to bet the majority of LA lone wolfers will get killed before they hit their special key. They will be seeking medics way before they worry about their own ammo supply. And when they find their medic, they gonna have nothin to give back in return if u take the ammo off them :(

E3 booth-players could care less about their XP, so please do not cite those videos to back your claims of LA lone-wolfing. It is after a few weeks people will have settled into their roles, not after 30 minutes.

Engineers have far too much on their plate already it seems. No to engineer ammo.

AMMO IS ESSENTIAL TO SQUAD SURVIVAL. Currently, LA is essential to squads. Removing ammo drops from LA makes them non-essential squadmembers IMHO. Giving ammo to engineers makes them SUPER ESSENTIAL. This creates class imbalance.

This is just how I feelz about this :D

-RageMasterUK

This ^

[Stew]

No way ENG already have repair tools and mana turrets having the Amo on top of thats simply broke the balanced of the game and make them OP |

[Stew]

Giving them ammo packs however will promote lone rambo's to fly up on ridges/inaccessible areas & sit forever with unlimited ammo and just try & fire for kills. Ammo is then not being distributed to the below players near the objective who need it.

.

This is the same thing as saying ENG should not be able to drive a vehicules because they will be able to repair themself it will promote LONE RAMBO VEHICULES !

this is compleatly wrong ligth assault can more efficiently reach the team mates who needs amo to resuply them ASAP due to their great mobility !

Also ENG already have Repair tool and MANA turrets so Hell no this is madness to me

AMO pack + Mana turrets + repair tool the perfect ingredients to have an OP class Congratulation you just broke the game !

[RageMasterUK]

You cannot stop idiots joining PS, but that doesnt mean we should butcher the class based system to try and encourage them to not be idiots. Idiots will be idiots, whether they have the health, armour repairs or ammo that you need. If a player is an idiot you arent going to get much out of them regardless of their class. The very best you can do is stop playing with them, the worst you can do is change the fundamentals of a game to accomodate them.

with the greatest manuvrability i would much prefer the LA to be seting up flanking positions for a nice crossfire, harrying the enemy and spliting ther fire, not hanging around in the main squad.

Agreed. But as it is right now they dont need to hang around the main squad like medics and engis. Their ammo box is droppable. They only have to be around their squad for like one second to perform this re-arm function. CMs and CEs have to actively repair and re-health things. LA doesnt. Once you drop your ammo pack in a smart place you can go do whatever you want away from your squad. They dont need you to be there. They just need you to drop the bloody box in the right place. Which you will do if you want XP. This has to be the easiest support function of all classes, and players think LA will not do this? I am amazed people think so narrow-mindedly.

with an ammo pack a LA trooper would probably nest in a high up position thus removeing the need to move as a result of runing low on ammo. this extra time spent nesting would allow the enemy to respond with ground troops or ther own LA on mass. this will probably get the LA killed in a position that the teams medic cant get to and all of a sudden the team has lost its most manuvrable member and its ammo surply.


You start by saying LA is the most maneuverable class suitable for flanking and maneuvers and end up saying this class is going to play in a manner where he doesnt need to move.... hmmm. And you are blaming this on the ammo-pack ability it seems. You seem to think LA's are just going to magnetise to their dropped ammo box.

When I play LA I am going to want to know where my closest medic is at all times. Light armor means the enemy eats at your health alot sooner.

Anyhow the argument is as defunct as any class not performing their role. If medics just run off and dont heal and get killed the squad will be in a similar position. Same with CE. Same with LA. If you have crappy players then this will happen regardless of class. This is not a Light Assault/Ammo box problem. Its a bad-player problem.

so now you are in a position wher bad players run off with ther ammo packs and get themselves killed, and good players know that there squad cant afford them geting killed trying to flank.

I crave to be in this position. If I need ammo I expect the LA to be there, not off flanking like a solo-whore. Just the same way if I need health I expect the med there. If I need reps the engi has to be there. I want squads who have bad players in them to have weakness. Thats what makes a game interesting, that you can kill an essential part of the enemy team who has made a mistake and thus disrupt the rest of his squad.

LA just need to drop their ammo pack near their squad, it really is not rocket science. Then their squad doesnt have to care what the LA does. He can flank, man a turret, suicide if he really wants.

LA are, thanks to ther high manuvrability a high risk/high reward class with lower survivability than the other frontline troops in a stand up fire fight. LA survivability stems from there ability to escape from heavyer threats and reposition rapidly. so the LA will ether take light damage that will not need them to run back to a medic or big damage from being flanked or surprised, this would probably kill the LA outright due to low armour.

If that is honestly what you believe, we may as well remove their health bar entirely.

You are arguing pro LA lone-wolfing for sure... You want medics to stay squad-coherent and you want LA's wandering off is how I read it. Its just that you do not want LA's wandering off with the squads ammo. To solve that you want another class to have it. What happens when that class wander off instead? Just because they dont have a jumppack doesnt mean they wont go AWOL.

Maneuverability means being able to move about effectively. If an LA is using high-hide strategy they can easily drop down using gravity to their squad, re-arm and re-heal, and JetPack back to their spot once they've caddied their squad up. Its not rocket science.

You can still have your LA's doing flanking maneuvers and whatever else you're thinking of on their own. The ammo pack is pretty much insta-drop and sits on the floor. The Light Assault player does not have to be present to give his friendly players ammo. He just has to have been where the squad is briefly.

I dont know what the problem here with people hating LA having ammo boxes. They are dropped instantly and have almost zero impact on LA's combat ability. Medics and Engi's have to equip something non lethal and spend their time spraying their friendlies to help them. LA's just have to dash past their squad and hit a single button.

You can drop ammo as soon as you get into a control point with your team, and then leave for your high-hide position on your own. You can return when you need health or when your team needs a new ammo pack. You do not have to spend every waking moment with your squad, unlike CM or CE, to be effective.

LA's are more likely to die near their squad for a revive if they are given a reason to stay near their squad. A reason like XP from supplying ammo.

The roles of flanking-attack-trooper and ammo-caddy are not mutually exclusive. They are complimentary. The ammo-supply special ability means they have another reason to get off their camping spot and not be a lone wolf. Again I re-iterate, if the XP reward for re-arming is there, LA's will rearm people. Generally, players follow the XP.

-RageMaster

[Ratstomper]

PurrfectStorm (unknown number of Rs)... the lovely VS talking head with the lip ring.

...You mean. :D

[SergeantNubins]

Just a thought, what about maxes carrying deployable ammo packs? Since maxes cant deploy anything, they have to shit out the pack and then have an infantry unit deploy it - but then it stops whatever class does get them allegedly being op...

Or have it so they drop the normal ammo packs, but they dont work for max weapons, part of the use of the repair or med tools the medics & engineers have, could then be in rearming maxes.

[mintyc]

@ragemaster

my point is that an LA's time is going to be best spent moveing the front line foraward by disrupting the enemys front line and not haveing to worry about ther own front lines haveing an ammo pack when they move up. as for encorageing lone wolf LA's, there ammo pool will not last that long and will send them back for a resurply fairly regularly. giveing them an ammo pack will ether keep them away form the front lines for longer or have them spending a fair ammount of time resurpluying a moveing front line.

i would much rather the LA be given something that helps them in that flanking/disruption role than them being partly responsible for surplying the front line. thats why i am in favor of giveing them more granades and more granade types, things like spider bombs, cluster/napalm granades, you know suff that can realy make a mess of a squad in cover.

another point you may want to consider is that a LA's role as a flanker will see them heading for places that are ether hard to reach or imposable for other clases to reach. they will be on top of tall crates, buldings and walls they will also be going into enemy held buildings through roofs and balconys, all places combat medics cant get to them should they need a rez.

with enginers alredy haveing a deployable surpply term the only other viable front line classes for an ammo pack is ether the combat medic or heavy assult. so long as you make it a choice between combat effectiveness and surport utility, giveing an ammo pack to ether should work nicely.

[Shinsharogi]

Just a thought, what about maxes carrying deployable ammo packs? Since maxes cant deploy anything, they have to shit out the pack and then have an infantry unit deploy it - but then it stops whatever class does get them allegedly being op...

Or have it so they drop the normal ammo packs, but they dont work for max weapons, part of the use of the repair or med tools the medics & engineers have, could then be in rearming maxes.

I agree, maxes are big hulking targets, so normally everyone would aim for him anyways. Also they are terribly slow and they seem to run out of ammo pretty quickly considering from what I seen from the e3 stream. I think maxes should have at least a support role rather than always being a tanky infantry that counters air or land, but this is just my opinion.

Edit- I also seen some maxes from ps1 carrying ammo and med/engi juices. Especially during a gen hold.

[Envenom]

HA's get my vote

[Ghstmarauder]

As someone who usually plays the Support class and I plan to be an Engineer, we do not need the ammo pack, especially if we have a way to break down equipment we place(it'd be nice but idk if it is an idea or not).

We are focusing on repairing vehicles and maxes and setting up the base defenses. Allowing us to replenish mines on the go so we can keep CEing a base would be ridiculous, theres a reason why the ammo terminals in the deployable shields didn't have ACEs.

[mintyc]

As someone who usually plays the Support class and I plan to be an Engineer, we do not need the ammo pack, especially if we have a way to break down equipment we place(it'd be nice but idk if it is an idea or not).

We are focusing on repairing vehicles and maxes and setting up the base defenses. Allowing us to replenish mines on the go so we can keep CEing a base would be ridiculous, theres a reason why the ammo terminals in the deployable shields didn't have ACEs.

things in the Engineer cert tree...

Deconstructor

Mobile Armament Supply Terminal

http://wiki.planetside-universe.com/ps/Engineer

[Meriv]

things in the Engineer cert tree...

Deconstructor

Mobile Armament Supply Terminal

http://wiki.planetside-universe.com/ps/Engineer

just two certificates to master clarymores? omg i won't like that :( anyone knows if they explode on friendly too?

[RageMasterUK]

@ragemaster

my point is that an LA's time is going to be best spent moveing the front line foraward by disrupting the enemys front line and not haveing to worry about ther own front lines haveing an ammo pack when they move up.

I agree with the first bit. I disagree with the second bit.

If an LA is hoping to move the front line forward by blazing ahead, what better way of encouraging teammates to follow than dropping ammo packs ahead of the frontline? This explains why I think LA ARE THE PERFECT CLASS FOR AMMO PACKS.

If I saw a LA group move forward and drop ammo packs ahead of my line, troops would be MORE LIKELY to move forward to the ammo cache. With ammo packs Light Assault can do EXACTLY what you think they should do in this regard (pulling other friendlies forward), only much much more effectively.

as for encorageing lone wolf LA's, there ammo pool will not last that long and will send them back for a resurply fairly regularly. giveing them an ammo pack will ether keep them away form the front lines for longer or have them spending a fair ammount of time resurpluying a moveing front line.

Whatever LoneWolf encouragement the ammo crate gives them, their diminished armor rating will cancel it out. LA will be seeking medics much much sooner than any other class. No-one likes running around with 10 percent health, particularly the lone-wolfers. Most LA's will die before they need more ammo, I can almost guarantee you that.

i would much rather the LA be given something that helps them in that flanking/disruption role than them being partly responsible for surplying the front line. thats why i am in favor of giveing them more granades and more granade types, things like spider bombs, cluster/napalm granades, you know suff that can realy make a mess of a squad in cover.

I think this is a terrible idea. The only class that can defy gravity gets extra AOE gravity assisted, aim-at-floor weapons? The only class that can hide in inaccesible places get a remote guided spiderbomb? This is a recipe for OP LA. Thats a no from me to AOE weapons for Jetpack troopers. I want the Liberator to stay as the only high altitude bomber.

another point you may want to consider is that a LA's role as a flanker will see them heading for places that are ether hard to reach or imposable for other clases to reach. they will be on top of tall crates, buldings and walls they will also be going into enemy held buildings through roofs and balconys, all places combat medics cant get to them should they need a rez.

Dude, I'll re-iterate. LA are the most maneuverable class. How completely unreasonable to expect medics to come chasing after your dead corpse if you've broken coherency. You have the power of the maneuverability as LA, so you should at least take the responsibility of dying in an appropriate place. I would rage so hard on the LA if he got upset with me because I couldnt rez him on top of the comms pylon he stupidly flew ontop of. I'd rage even harder if I was out of ammo. LA would be more likely to die in a rezzable place if they have a reason to stay near their squad (ammo packs).

Let me explain my considerations. If LA are going to try pulling these stunts, flying off without support, taking on the enemy alone, they should live with the consequences of breaking away from their less-mobile medic counterpart. LA should be prepared to respawn if they break away from their squad and die. This isn't even something I'd want to address or fix. This is simply how it should be.

Nubins I think MAXs should be the class that needs the support, not gives it out. Max = Max Armor = Max Damage Output. The work-around using the second player is just over-complicated.

-RageMasterUK

[Sledgecrushr]

@ragemaster

my point is that an LA's time is going to be best spent moveing the front line foraward by disrupting the enemys front line and not haveing to worry about ther own front lines haveing an ammo pack when they move up. as for encorageing lone wolf LA's, there ammo pool will not last that long and will send them back for a resurply fairly regularly. giveing them an ammo pack will ether keep them away form the front lines for longer or have them spending a fair ammount of time resurpluying a moveing front line.

i would much rather the LA be given something that helps them in that flanking/disruption role than them being partly responsible for surplying the front line. thats why i am in favor of giveing them more granades and more granade types, things like spider bombs, cluster/napalm granades, you know suff that can realy make a mess of a squad in cover.

another point you may want to consider is that a LA's role as a flanker will see them heading for places that are ether hard to reach or imposable for other clases to reach. they will be on top of tall crates, buldings and walls they will also be going into enemy held buildings through roofs and balconys, all places combat medics cant get to them should they need a rez.

with enginers alredy haveing a deployable surpply term the only other viable front line classes for an ammo pack is ether the combat medic or heavy assult. so long as you make it a choice between combat effectiveness and surport utility, giveing an ammo pack to ether should work nicely.

Umm...MAXs move the front line forward. LA will work to support MAXs by securing and attacking flanks and attacking from high ground wherever possible.

[mintyc]

I agree with the first bit. I disagree with the second bit.

If an LA is hoping to move the front line forward by blazing ahead, what better way of encouraging teammates to follow than dropping ammo packs ahead of the frontline? This explains why I think LA ARE THE PERFECT CLASS FOR AMMO PACKS.

If I saw a LA group move forward and drop ammo packs ahead of my line, troops would be MORE LIKELY to move forward to the ammo cache. With ammo packs Light Assault can do EXACTLY what you think they should do in this regard (pulling other friendlies forward), only much much more effectively.

the enemy and cover will dictate the frontline long befor an ammo pack. you need ammo packs wher the frontline is not where it might end up being.



Whatever LoneWolf encouragement the ammo crate gives them, their diminished armor rating will cancel it out. LA will be seeking medics much much sooner than any other class. No-one likes running around with 10 percent health, particularly the lone-wolfers. Most LA's will die before they need more ammo, I can almost guarantee you that.

not necaceraly, PS2 has regenarating health and the LA's dont have much so it recharges fairly quickly. with ther jump jets they can probably find a safe spot to hide for a few seconds when they disengage.



I think this is a terrible idea. The only class that can defy gravity gets extra AOE gravity assisted, aim-at-floor weapons? The only class that can hide in inaccesible places get a remote guided spiderbomb? This is a recipe for OP LA. Thats a no from me to AOE weapons for Jetpack troopers. I want the Liberator to stay as the only high altitude bomber.

granades will cost recorces so i dont think the liberator has to fear for its job and part of the LA's job will be to hunt down enemy LA's who are trying to flank. so as a LA you are not realy gona have alot of time when you do flank.



Dude, I'll re-iterate. LA are the most maneuverable class. How completely unreasonable to expect medics to come chasing after your dead corpse if you've broken coherency. You have the power of the maneuverability as LA, so you should at least take the responsibility of dying in an appropriate place. I would rage so hard on the LA if he got upset with me because I couldnt rez him on top of the comms pylon he stupidly flew ontop of. I'd rage even harder if I was out of ammo. LA would be more likely to die in a rezzable place if they have a reason to stay near their squad (ammo packs).

Let me explain my considerations. If LA are going to try pulling these stunts, flying off without support, taking on the enemy alone, they should live with the consequences of breaking away from their less-mobile medic counterpart. LA should be prepared to respawn if they break away from their squad and die. This isn't even something I'd want to address or fix. This is simply how it should be.

Nubins I think MAXs should be the class that needs the support, not gives it out. Max = Max Armor = Max Damage Output. The work-around using the second player is just over-complicated.

-RageMasterUK

you will never stop a LA form dieing in a hard to reach place as that is wher they will have to fight from to be most effective. all giveing the LA an ammo pack will do is ether tie them to the main group as a surport trooper or have the teams ammo pack wonder off and die. giveing such a high risk class an important surport role will not realy help them or the team.

any good LA player will be doing hit and run attacks on enamy flanks and soft spots, getting out befor the enemy responds and swamps them. with only 300 rounds and about 3 granades (from what i could see in the e3 vids) LA's will need to stay within sight of the front line for a resurplys, which is exactly the place they need to be, on the edges causing havok. LA's will act more like cavalry, fast, hard hitting and dead if caught out of position.

[RageMasterUK]

the enemy and cover will dictate the frontline long befor an ammo pack. you need ammo packs wher the frontline is not where it might end up being.
Can we agree that when someone sees an ammo pack, it will influence where they move? I think so. You want to influence the movement of the frontline, ammo packs are just one extra element in the equation. LA's can provide further incentive for other troops to move forward with the ammo pack.

PS2 has regenarating health and the LA's dont have much so it recharges fairly quickly. with ther jump jets they can probably find a safe spot to hide for a few seconds when they disengage.
To recharge their shield, maybe it might take a few seconds.

Maybe you are unaware that health regenerates at a very, very slow pace. You will not want to wait 2 minutes for your health regain when you can jetpack over to the closest medic in 30 seconds. You are ceirtainly not going to be able to recover from a serious attack in a few seconds. LA has the least shields, their health starts to get chewed up after a few bullets.

Your posts sort of read like you believe you're rarely going to visit a medic. I fear your Light Assault will be visiting the medic more than most classes. Either that or the local spawnpoint. You got the least armor dude, its just maths.

granades will cost recorces so i dont think the liberator has to fear for its job
Sure I flavoured that statement up somewhat, but Liberators cost resources too, so it depends on pricing. Also, Liberators require the combined effort of atleast 2 soldiers to rain death from above.

I dont want a lone-wolf LA flying grenade spamfest to contend with thats for ceirtain!

you will never stop a LA form dieing in a hard to reach place as that is wher they will have to fight from to be most effective. all giveing the LA an ammo pack will do is ether tie them to the main group as a surport trooper or have the teams ammo pack wonder off and die. giveing such a high risk class an important surport role will not realy help them or the team.

They are not tied to anything! THEY CAN JUST DROP THE AMMO PACK! ITS A DROPPABLE AMMO PACK. You dont even have to drop it for anyone if thats your playstyle but jeez, how hard is it really? As the most maneuverable class?

You dont think you might run past troops needing ammo after you spawn, while getting to the frontline? You will do so often for ceirtain if you're not visiting the medic. And if you do visit medics you can drop your box next to him, him and all of his patients will appreciate it.

You press the drop ammo key and forget about your support role its that simple. Its like the LEAST DISRUPTIVE SUPPORT ROLE EVER. You could do it accidentally its that easy.

any good LA player will be doing hit and run attacks on enamy flanks and soft spots, getting out befor the enemy responds and swamps them. with only 300 rounds and about 3 granades (from what i could see in the e3 vids) LA's will need to stay within sight of the front line for a resurplys, which is exactly the place they need to be, on the edges causing havok.
LA's will act more like cavalry, fast, hard hitting and dead if caught out of position.

Unless SOE stripped ammo drops from the LA already, any good LA player will be killing enemies and delivering ammo like the class dictates. Good LA players will be trying to earn XP through all means given to them, not just kill-whoring. My imagination is that a good LA player will be playing as you are suggesting, WHILE IN ADDITION providing ammo to the harder troops that have managed to move forward and join them. The really good LA's will detour for mobs of friendlies out of ammo, knowing there is big XP score behind the action.

Your post reads like how you want to play LA is how you want everyone else to play. Please consider how other LAs might want to play, and the class-within-class ethos PS2 has demonstrated so far. I really love the idea of using a Jetpacking Light Assault to deliver ammo quickly to hard to reach units while under fire. I think it might be epic to depend upon, and to experience firsthand.

I agree with you wholeheartedly with your assesment of what Light Assaults combat capabilities should be (exept mid-air grenade spamming LA's). I just think that you are naive to want to strip them of their support role also. Its worth XP to the LA class and doesnt stop any of the gameplay you are advocating. You're just trying to pigeonhole people who want to deliver ammo as LA.

Ammo Pack or No Ammo Pack, Your playstyle will remain unnaffected. The only gripe you can have is if you have an issue with getting ammo off Light Assaults. Whoever gets the ammo packs will deliver if its worth XP. If you dont want to do it, just serve yourself ammo on a roof while you're recharging your health for 2 minutes and let other LA's pull your weight. They will do.

I say leave it in as an option for people who dont mind the responsibility and like the concept of epic, johnny on the spot ammo deliveries.

At the end of the day, who we get ammo from is irrelevant so long as we get the damn ammo ASAP when we are out, wherever we are. And I think we can both agree on which class does the get-to-where-you-are-ASAP best.

Light Assault. Form Follows Function..

-RageMasterUK

[FuzzyandBlue]

I'd have to say that I would prefer either the Engineer or HA having the ammo. It puts the ammo where it needs to be. A LA is meant to be all over the place, it makes them less than ideal as ammo mules.

Engineers on the other hand are meant to stick with their team mates and support them. This set up gives the advantage of ammo being at the front lines making holding a position for long periods of time easier. Then again the engineer already has a ton of things that they can do. It would also suck if they had to replace the deployable turret in order to carry ammo.

I like HA as well. They carry big guns with lots of ammo. This makes them ideal for holding positions, as well as lying down suppression fire, which takes a lot of ammo. With this setup few medics, engineers and HA could set up a very sustainable "base" during an assault.

In either of these cases ammo packs, and med packs, should be limited to a reasonable amount and disappear after so many uses.

[mintyc]

@RageMaster

at E3 they mentioned that they mentioned that they would be and i quote "changing it up" as they dident like how ammo pack encoraged LA's lone wolfing about the place. if you want to hear it for yourself check out the TB sream vids on youtube.

also check out how fast the curent health regen rate is on the LA. at one point a LA is taking on a MAX and almost gets killed (down to 3 or 4 bars) health starts regening within 10-15 seconds and is up to full by the time LA kills the MAX less than 30 seconds later. i know things and can and will change in beta but thats how it stands atm.

i feel you are underestimating the effect that granades haveing a cost will have on how players. a player who spams his granades is gona learn fast that he is just throwing away recorces. granades can only be re-stoked at a term so when they are gone you need to run all the way back to one for a refill, meaning that you have even more incentive to be cearfull when you throw them.

as you said Form Follows Function and i belive that giveing the LA an ammo pack will ether lead to him becoming ditached from the front line and geting caught with his pants down or haveing to remain so close to a moveing front line to keep it surplyed that it comprises there ability to flank and disrupt the enemy. the LA with have a rather small window in witch to operate as it is without giveing them a task that will take them away from that window, paticularly when there are better suited classes that is alredy in the main group on the front line.

[PoisonTaco]

Give the ammo pack to heavy assault and make them cost resources. If ammo packs have a cost they will only be used if absolutely needed. It gives the HA something to bring for the team, and the resource cost makes it so you can't just throw it around and waste it.

[Stew]

Give the ammo pack to heavy assault and make them cost resources. If ammo packs have a cost they will only be used if absolutely needed. It gives the HA something to bring for the team, and the resource cost makes it so you can't just throw it around and waste it.

Bad idea since in everygames where you have randoms people you trow a amo pack to help them out and they run away from it so yeah and also the LA must keep the amo because its the more reliable class who can jump over structure and containers etc.. to reach the people who need amo actually HA will mostly spend his amo to resuply himself due to his low mobility

And no way for the ENG OP idea !

[MrKWalmsley]

actually HA will mostly spend his amo to resuply himself due to his low mobility


You can come up with the selfishness excuse for practically every class, and I do not see why you are using it since it applies to LA's to.

Engineers would just use ammo packs to resupply themselves because they have only a limited number of explosives, and their non-dedicated firearm is not as good as others, so they'd need more ammo to accomplish the same task.

Infiltrators would just use ammo packs to resupply themselves so they stay in one place for hours popping off shots constantly without having to move to a base to resupply.

Medics would use ammo packs to resupply themselves as as with the engineer, their primary weapon is not a dedicated killing platform, so it will require more ammo to perform the same as say a HA.

Max's shouldn't have ammo packs because they will supply themselves for the same reasons as a HA.

So that criticism is null since it can be applied to every class, and even if not every class, it sure as hell applies to the LA.

[Kalbuth]

I've not read the whole thread, sry, maybe this has been said before : what if ammo packs are still given to LA, but can only be deployed on the ground, or LA needs a non-LA teammate nearby to deploy it? (sounds rather stupid as a restriction, but at least you're sure to avoid the lonewolf which is guaranteed to happen is LA has ammo pack unrestricted)

[RageMasterUK]

at E3 they mentioned that they mentioned that they would be and i quote "changing it up" as they dident like how ammo pack encoraged LA's lone wolfing about the place. if you want to hear it for yourself check out the TB sream vids on youtube.

I did hear that yes. I think that was a partial pander to the militant "NO LA AMMO DROP EVAR" group as the messageboards were hot about that subject at the time.

I just hope to high heaven the Devs dont doubt their original idea on this. The forum is mostly conjecture from people who have never played PS1 or PS2 commenting on videos of people who have only played PS2 for like 30 minutes. What the hell do we know, devs? For gods sake dont listen too hard to us. Go with your gut! Keep it in for beta and let us tell you when we're more informed.

I would be keen to know if they get many incidents of LA Lone-Wolf Ammobox-Camping in their internal office beta. People who have played it longer than 30 minutes have the real answer on this. Not the E3 showroom floor.

You said LA get about 300 rounds in their pool before opening up the ammo crate. I would be keen to see if the average Light Assault fires more or less than 300 rounds (10 magazines) in an average life, to see whether or not the Ammo Box has any effect whatsoever on their playstyle.

If it is found out that LA's fire through only 150 rounds (5 magazines) per average life than we can say conclusively that the Ammo Box has absolutely nothing to do with Light Assault Lone Wolfing, because they would very rarely need to drop the box for themselves.

The stat tracking feature will have interesting reveals in this regard. I think we will find that most LA's die way before they empty their primary ammo pool. Please chime in again MintyC if you disagree with this statement. We can talk about that.


as you said Form Follows Function and i belive that giveing the LA an ammo pack will ether lead to him becoming ditached from the front line and geting caught with his pants down or haveing to remain so close to a moveing front line to keep it surplyed that it comprises there ability to flank and disrupt the enemy. the LA with have a rather small window in witch to operate as it is without giveing them a task that will take them away from that window, paticularly when there are better suited classes that is alredy in the main group on the front line.

*Facepalm*
Again you want every Light Assault to play like you're going to play. Your previous "ammobox + LA = LoneWolf encouragement" argument is a much better argument than this, because ammo pack or no ammo pack the tactical play you want to see is UNAFFECTED BY AMMO PACKS. YOU CAN DO EVERYHING YOU JUST WROTE ABOUT WITHOUT DROPPING YOUR PACK. YOU DONT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING YOU DONT WANT TO IN THIS GAME. If you're not keen on handing out ammo then someone else is going to have to, regardless of whether they have to pick LA to do this. Its obvious you're not too keen on having to hand out ammo.

If you were to open your mind to imagine a player wants to SPECIFICALLY re-arm their friendlies. Which class do you think will be most fulfilling to play out this role in? Which class would be most useful in this regard? Light Assault every frikkin time. Its almost tailor made for the role of delivering ammo.

Its a bad reason to move ammo packs out of the whole class because you feel everyone should play Light Assault in a manner just like you do. You are pigeonholing everyone else wanting to play Light Assault class with this statement, because they want to play differently than you.

Its like engineers arguing they should take the repair tool off the class because they just want to go around placing deployables and doing nothing else. Doesnt mean other players might want to do the repairing. We should cater for both if one does not affect the other.

The Function:
Making sure ammo reaches all who need it.
The Form:
Class MOST CAPABLE TO REACH THOSE WHO NEED IT.

What happens when HA get ammo packs.
Sniper "I bailed on this sniper perch and its a great view. Running low on ammo."
HA "Oh well shame I cant get up there to you."
Sniper "Grab a mossie and bail over me.
HA "Screw that, costs resources. You will have to come down."
Sniper: fu...

Infil: "Im PWNING just the other side of that base-wall. Gief me ammo! Please!"
HA: "Screw that I aint takin the long way round. You will have to come back."
Infil: fu...

HA1: "Doin pretty well surviving here at point C, got any ammo packs left?"
HA2: "Nah the MAXs have chewed through the lot but I will go fetch. Wheres the closest equip terminal?"
MAX: "Other side of that ravine."
HA1: fu...
HA2: fu...
MAX:fu...

Squadleader: "Need ammo up top of the tower at point A!!!"
HA: "I didnt pimp this LMG so I'd have to run up and down stairs for you guys, screw that!"
Rest of Squad: fu...

LA:.... what? Dont look at me! I just flank and stuff.

:rolleyes:

-RageMasterUK

[Kalbuth]

@RageMasterUK : at the very moment we were seeing the LA and purfectStorm made her comment on "working on it", didn't they also stated the guy they were watching was actually a dev or smtg? He was definitely better than the usual player screened at E3.

Awnyway, I understand perfectly your point, sounds very valid, but it doesn't invalidate the fact that ammo pack + health/shield regen (which is apparently still to be confirmed for health regen) + ability to reach hidden points == perfect lonewolf dream, and this playstyle will become heavily used, even if there exist other ways to play the class. When people will find out a way to survive longer on their own, they'll use it.
There are many "if" in this scenario, which means we better wait for beta at this point.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

Make a new class.

[Top Sgt]

Make a new class.

lol like the one matrix movie.. Where the ammo kids just ran out the doors pushing ammo carts up to the max's.. that's all they did run around bringing ammo ha ha

[mintyc]

@RageMasterUK

i am not trying to pigeon-hole anyone, what i am trying to do is make a point.

and that point is that the devs appear to be folowing a philosophy of each class haveing its own set of abilitys and equipment with very little replication or crossover in other clases. as a result of this i would not expect the ammo pack to be given to more than one class. i just belive that it would be better to give that to class that spends most of its time wher the ammo packs will have the greatest effect.

allow me to explain my thinking on how the Light Assault will operate combat wise, based on current observed and stated information.

The Facts

1. the LA has a jump pack
2. the LA has a carbine (talk of shotguns also being available)
3. the LA has low armour
4. the LA has speciality grenades
5. the LA has normal granades
6. the LA can reach places no other class can without a vehicle
7. the LA has more movement paths open to it than any other class

The Analysys Of The Facts

1. weapons

granades, carbines and shotguns are all most effective at short to medium range so in order to fight efectivly the LA will need to close the distance to the enamy.

the speciality granades comprise of smoke, flash and C4. while the c4 is for seting traps and dealing with vehicles up close, the smoke and flash are disruption granades. the smoke grenades are for breaking line of sight and force your enemy to ether reposition to the sides of the smoke, retreat backwards or risk being swamped in close combat. the flash on the other hand is all about temporarily disableing your enemy so you can gain an advantage, close procsimity to the grenade is vital for maximum effect.

2. armour

with low armour it is unwise for you to spend significant ammounts of time standing in the line of fire. now since you need line of sight to attack your enamy with your primary weapons that means that you shouldent stand wher the enamy is placeing most of its fire i.e. the frontline. also once you do draw large ammounts of enemy fire you wont last to long so shorter engagements in rapid succession will beneeded to keep the presure on.

3. jumppack

this is less about moveing faster than allowing you to treverse terain faster and move in ways that no other class can. meaning that you can move to wher others canot reach rapidly allowing you to operate without haveing to worry about your flanks for a short window. the jump pack also alows you to rapidly disengage in ways that allow you time to brake line of sight.

the only other class that can negate this is another LA meaning that situational awearness and disengageing befor you draw to much atention will be key to survival.

The Conclusions

the LA's weapons dictate that ther efective range will be medium to short range, however the LA's armour dictates that they canot take sustaned fire and the enemys fire will always be heavyest towards the largest consentration of oposing forces in order to surpress them.

this combines to mean that the LA will need to be at medium to close range attaking from a direction other than that of the front line. thanks to the jump pack the LA can taverse terrain rapidly to find a good flanking position that the enemy is current not paying atention too. theese needs for the enemy to not be paying attention to the area and the need for proximity mean that it is highly unlikely that the chosen location will not have any frindly troops present at all and be significantly out of the line of sight that the LA can position properly befor drawing atention.

this need to operate away from frindly lines to be most efective in flanking and disrupting the enemys line means that the LA's primary offensive operational area involves spending significant time away from frindly lines.

giveing the LA what will likly be the only rapidly deployable ammo source means that the LA will have now have more than one operational areas that requiare significant time to move safely between. the front line will sometimes be stable but more often than not they will be in fairly rapid flux. meaning that the LA will end up ether haveing fight from the front line wher ther wepons and low armour make them far less effective or away from the main group wher an ammo pack would not do the team they are with any good.

the LA will be unable to swap between the two operational areas rapidly as to move from attaking the flank to friendly front lines the LA will have to disengage from the enemy safely, then avoid any one that is persuing them followed by haveing to circle round back to friendly lines as they cant cut accros no mans land without the risk of being killed when the enemy front lines see a LA bounceing around in front of them.

end concusion.

you can cut it whatever way you like it it is part of the LA's role to spend a fair old ammount of time away from the front line and giveing them the ammo caddy role on top of that will cut down significantly the amount of time they will spend in efective attacking positions. this is why i think the ammo pack should be given to a class that spends most of its time attacking or surporting from the main front line.

you said that it is a bad reason to move ammo packs based on how i think others should play the class, well considering the LA's weapons, armour and manuvrability. i would be interested to hear how you think the LA should play other than as a flanker/disruptor that spends as little time as posible in the massed fire on the front line, which is exactly wher the ammo packs are needed the most.


What happens when LA get ammo packs.

(good snipers have 2 ranges)

(stupidly long range)
Sniper "I bailed on this sniper perch and its a great view. Running low on ammo."
LA "Ok let me run the 3 miles to you"
enemy air cav "oh look an LA out in the open, on his own, next to that awsome sniper perch"
Sniper + LA: fu...*BOOM*
(if i have a nice sniper perch i dont want an LA and his shiny jets anywher near me)

(just behind the front line range)
Sniper "I bailed on this sniper perch and its a great view. Running low on ammo."
LA "you have an ammopack right in front of you lazy sod"
Sniper: "oh yeah"

Infil "Im PWNING just the other side of that base-wall. Gief me ammo! Please!"
LA "Ok let me jump accros this enemy held base to get to you"
enemy trooper 1 "why is he doing that?"
enemy trooper 2 *rapid gunfire* "he is not doing it anymore"
(being a LA trooper wont realy make you faster it just lets you get over taller things)

HA1 "Doin pretty well surviving here at point C, got any ammo packs left?"
LA "ok i died trying to get in to that building that is under large amounts of enemy fire, whers the nearest spawnpoint"
MAX "Other side of that ravine."
LA "Sweet i can just jump back to you"
HA1 "nevermind and enginer who was alredy with the front line has deployed his Mobile Armament Supply Terminal as we will be staying put for a while to defend this point"
LA "so i got myselft killed for nothing?"
MAX "well i found it funny, that count as somthing?"
LA "fu..."

Squadleader "Need ammo up top of the tower at point A!!!"
LA "hear you go"
Rest of Squad "woohoo"
Squadleader "ok now dont even think about moveing away or attaking and geting your sellf killed else i will have a MAX sit on you, we are dead if we run out of ammo"
MAX *grins*
LA "fu..."

HA + CM "... what dont look at us! all we do is stay on the front line and stuff"

[Malorn]

If you stay with your squad anyone can give ammo effectively.

I still like the MAX for ammo giving. Makes the most sense to me.

[Toppopia]

Hmm, i have actually wondered how useful flanking as an LA would be, do bases have rafter type places or air ducty areas? (Not really air ducts, but places that only a LH would get to and can flank from a high elevated position an can only really be killed by rocket spam or being shot while poking over the edge?

[RageMasterUK]

Your "Lone-Wolfing" argument is much stronger than the "LA is a flanking class" argument.

1. It really doesnt matter what combat strategies LA are most suited to, everyone gets weapons, and we're talking about support here. The only thing that matters is that LA is the most agile and maneuverable class.

2. This lends itself to BOTH attack strategies, AND logistics.

3. Just because all you want to do is forward position flanking maneuvers doesnt mean every single LA will want to the same thing as you. Some players will want to stick within range of their squad and provide ammo, or covering fire from elevated positions, or get on mana turrets, or spot enemies. WE DONT ALL HAVE TO PLAY LIKE YOU SUGGEST. WE MIGHT HAVE OUR OWN IDEAS ON HOW TO PLAY LIGHT ASSAULT. Just because you are playing the class that can drop ammo doesnt mean you have to do it. You remain unaffected in your LA flanking role...
...however...
Removing the ammo pack from LA will affect everyone else who wants to play close to their squad, who would really appreciate the ability to re-arm hard-to-reach friendlies.

4. Ammo Packs drop instantly and do not need to be babysat like you seem to think. LA's can link up and do their ammo re-supplying with VERY LITTLE TIME OUT OF THEIR BUSY FLANKING SCHEDULE.
Let me repeat that for the hard-of-reading. YOU ARE NOT WELDED TO THE POSITION YOU DROP YOUR AMMO IN. (Geez its like people think you have to stay there and wind the handle on the damn thing)

5. The Light assault does not have to be "On Location" for more than a split second to provide the support feature. LA can flash into a friendly location to provide ammo BEFORE, DURING, OR AFTER he starts his combat maneuvers elsewhere. His ammo box can be providing ammo in one location, while he is flank-maneuvering 300 meters away AT THE SAME TIME.

6. A Light Assault is HIGHLY LIKELY to run past friendlies needing ammo between their last respawn point and their MintyC endorsed forward firing position.

7. As you mentioned CE already gets an ammo vending point that can be placed near the bulk of a squad. So why bother having a class equally as immobile as CE (i.e non LA classes) dropping ammo packs where the vending machine is? Why not give it to the LA who can reach other places the CE cannot?

And lastly I see you fixed my hypothetical conversations up without much thought. Obviously this is just a bit o fun but hey...

The point of my orignal conversation examples where LA provides the ammo service where no other class could.
And a bit of fun. Your edits do not support your argument against LA having the ammo.

Convo1: Sniper runs out of ammo, his perch becomes useless (then read convo2). No LA, no perch rearm EVER = Fail.
Convo2: Sniper drops down and has to repurchase Mozzie to reach perch with ammo again = Fail
Convo3 & 4: Introducing the super-lethal base or the Engineer in this context MAKES THE AMMO PACK REDUNDANT REGARDLESS OF WHAT CLASS ITS ON. You heaped no criticism on LA with either of these. What happens when the vending machine gets destroyed or the engineer logs off? Who will cross your ravine now? = Fail.
Convo 5: Light Assault DOES NOT HAVE TO STAY ON POINT. Squadleader in question is an idiot = Fail.

-RageMasterUK