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Figment
2012-06-07, 09:35 AM
Making this thread so you can just make lists of things you noticed while watching the footage. What stood out for you in terms of gameplay implications and did you personally like this? This then is mostly intended as a "personal impression and opinion"-thread, rather than a discussion thread of other people's observations.

Since so many points are made, it might be wise to just stick to your own observations as it'd become too chaotic otherwise.

Thus if you disagree with someone else's observations, just post your own interpretations of what you think you saw instead, rather than provide quality judgements on others.


The goal is to help devs look through random people's eyes at how they experience the game as a whole and how random people feel the gameplay flows currently.


I'll start. :)


MBT drivers do not wait for gunners (I've not seen one do so!)
Sunderers are hardly used at all as a combat vehicle
The secondary gunner position is hardly used, even when they fight aircraft, few switch as they try to keep moving.
Ground vehicle drivers and pilots alike continuously bump and crash into foreign objects, friendlies, etc while driving in first person mode
When they drive in first person mode, they use about a 40 degrees turret range so they can drive forward.


When firing sideways they tend to come to a halt and turn their hulls towards the enemy because of locational damage, inducing static ground vehicle combat. This happens even if they have a gunner.
A lot of accidental suicides, but also a lot of people blowing themselves up on purpose to get back to a vehicle pad.
Galaxies are only used as troop carriers and not used as a nearby spawnpoints. Regardless of having the most hitpoints of all units and despite of having turret defenses, they simply die too fast to everything to be useful in any other role than PS1 style dropship.
People seem to prefer spawnpoints that give them direct, personal logistical benefits: the SpawnOnSquad (SOS) to get right back in the action and bypassing defenses and logistical time or the temporary forward barracks with vehicle pulling options.
The Galaxy tends to just wait next to another spawnpoint for safety and loading up troops, just like in PS1


Galaxy's guns are indeed in the locations of tail and far wings and thus have huge limitations on what they can feasibly fire at. They do not suffice for protecting the Galaxy once deployed.
Vehicles survival rate is very low, one grunt can quite easily kill a MBT or lighter aircraft
A lot of players eventually gravitating towards MAX units
Quite clear why MAX units probably won't be able to use vehicles later on due to bailing before vehicles die (an old known problem from PS1 with regards to aircraft/agiles and AA MAXes in a more general form)
Cheap units often not being chosen: not regarded as competitive units?


Infantry TTK is very fast, often it seems people don't even have time to realise they are being engaged from behind
Because people move so fast and erratic, very few people seem to use boomers.
Very few people wait for and use medics
Engineer's turrets are deployed inside, but overall don't seem to be very useful as their users tend to die on a flanking move or grenade, before they can turn to get a shot
Sunderers are NOT used for repair and resupply, partially because they do not get the chance: people and vehicles die too fast to make this useful


Lightnings can singlehandedly kill MBTs, whether or not they have a gunner
Aircraft explode the moment they hit an object and the suicide rate is therefore extremely high. This even occurs during landing attempts. Perhaps players should get a bit of slack with collissions (take less damage than 100%) and help with landing (extremely reduced impact damage in landing mode, perhaps linked to speeds).
Base defense structures are largely ignored both due to Spawn on Squad (which is very frequently happening, simply because there's so many people respawning)
Base turrets are typically ignored because people don't know when or how they can enter them. Possibly capture points interfere because they change hands constantly?
It's incredibly, almost ridiculously easy to reach capture points.


Vehicle combat mixes almost completely with infantry combat indoors (very few places vehicles can't go or deliver firepower)
A lot of bailing from vehicles by drivers right before they explode
Pilots bailing often die upon hitting the ground
Bunnyhopping does not occur and people trying to do so die fast
Infiltrators try to use sniper rifles for melee quick scoping combat


Infiltrators at least in the demo have nothing different to do from regular grunts: it's all about shooting other people and capturing positions at the same rate as grunts, just slightly different combat.
Infiltration in PS2 has very little to do with sneaking (mostly seen sprint relocations to surprise attack enemies rather than sneaking behind enemy lines) and gameplay is too fast and chaotic to even establish an enemy line to sneak behind. There seems little purpose to this side of the infil in PS2. That disappoints me a lot since it was 80% of my PS1 gameplay.
Infiltrators and other light classes can fight MAX units quite succesfully
Infiltrators cannot cloak continuously, at least not from the start
Combat is as chaotic as a Call of Duty Random Deathmatch: attacks come from any and all directions at once. There is no "flow" to it.


Often hard to distinguish friend from foe, especially for new players, but also because vision is regularly obscured.
Very few players use the "spot player" command (feature doesn't seem very useful because they can kill them before they spot them and it only interferes with their actions).
A lot of self-healing occurs, though it frequently takes a long time to kick in (attrition should be possible).
Few medics and engineers aid their buddies in comparison to PS1. I would chalk this up to people not wanting "to be the healer lackey while other people are having fun". Where in PS1 people would bring med or engi along for themselves, but then also would assist your buddies as you had it at hand anyway.
Compared to PS1, a lot of situational awareness is lost for infantry and people therefore get ambushed far more often (third person not only helped create ambushes, it clearly also helped to prevent ambushes as well)


Light assaults often throw down ammo for themselves, not so much for others
The randoms aren't really inclined to work together from the start. Instead focussing on their own benefits. IMO there should be more incentives to work together in the form of less individual options. For instance, having to hart in in groups, rather than alone.
Only the second day would people start working together. Might have been just me but they may have been provided with headsets the second day?
When people are too low for the more expensive personal vehicles, they still often won't pick the teamwork vehicles. There should IMO be a lot more attention to instructing players on when and how to use such vehicles and provide more strong incentives to work as teams.
Few people repair their own vehicles (could be they don't know it is possible, could be they don't get the chance to survive long enough to find a repair spot)



These are just some of the observations, some good, some bad, though I'd say most IMO confirm what was expected. I'm sure a lot of tweaking still needs to be done though.

EDIT: As said above, demo won't be comparative to beta, it's simply about initial impressions, observations and general pointers. Not fine-tuning. :)

TheRagingGerbil
2012-06-07, 09:46 AM
A bunch of random newbs just trying to blow shit up. Beta will be be an entirely different game.

Stardouser
2012-06-07, 09:48 AM
1. Galaxies are only used as troop carriers and not used as a nearby spawnpoints. Regardless of having the most hitpoints of all units and despite of having turret defenses, they simply die too fast to everything to be useful in any other role than PS1 style dropship.
1. People seem to prefer spawnpoints that give them direct, personal logistical benefits: the SpawnOnSquad (SOS) to get right back in the action and bypassing defenses and logistical time or the temporary forward barracks with vehicle pulling options.
2. Vehicles survival rate is very low, one grunt can quite easily kill a MBT or lighter aircraft
3. Infantry TTK is very fast, often it seems people don't even have time to realise they are being engaged from behind
2. Lightnings can singlehandedly kill MBTs, whether or not they have a gunner
1. Base defense structures are largely ignored both due to Spawn on Squad (which is very frequently happening, simply because there's so many people respawning)

These are just some of the observations, some good, some bad, though I'd say most IMO confirm what was expected. I'm sure a lot of tweaking still needs to be done though.

1. Yes, people do prefer to spawn that way. However, I observe that there is no organized defense of the base due to the way that it has been set up for E3. If there was an organized defense, squad leaders would be holding back more. And the flimsiness of Galaxies is a concern. Either deployed Galaxies will have more hit points, or a cloak, or something, or else sallying out of a sieged base to take them out will be easy. (or they will have to be deployed a full kilometer away)

Also, the openness of the base, with no contiguous walls, contributes to the problem.
2. Due to the lack of organization, PART of this is the fact that people rush into INDOOR sections of bases while in a tank. That's deadly, not sure that's wise to do just because you can do it now(and you couldn't in PS1). But, yes; vehicles, especially heavier tanks, are a bit weak.
3. My observation is that if you are a MAX, things are great. Maybe even HA. Light assault vs Light assault though, that's pretty low.

megamold
2012-06-07, 09:50 AM
the main thing out i took out of the livestream is that there will be UI customization, not just moving the healthbar around but choice of different graphics for the indications.

to me this shows that they are taking their "customization is very important to us " statement pretty seriously, and gives me hope that this might bleed trough to other parts of the game.

and i think most of the points you make, while indeed seen in the demo are more in relation to player skill and knowledge of the game.
i wouldnt worry about any of those.

ringring
2012-06-07, 09:50 AM
It is very difficult not to comment on a few of yours. I'd just say, what we have seen (probably) isn't representative of 'proper' play. After all, are looking through the eyes of a few people who have rolled up to a kiosk simply to get a general impression so I am not surprised when they pull a tank/lib they don't wait for a secondary.

The other thing is this was a false game in as much as various 'things' have been purposely tweaked. For example, the temporary respawn points, the out of bounds, non operational base turrets and I bet there are others.

However, I've seen a couple of things that have made me raise my eyebrows.


Tank/sunderer drivers switching to the other gun instantly and without having to get out of the vehicle to transfer.
Squad spawning apparently only has a timer on the individual as a limitation
Liked that the Jumpjet on the Light was of a short suration and therefore only used to get into a position.
Yes, it was chaos and I'd like to think some structure to the fights can be added either by outfit co-op or maybe by simply being a twoway rather than a threeway fight.
Flying looked fun
xp gain appeared to be a fixed value per 'action' rather than the variable one in PS1, which I'd prefer tbh

Novacane
2012-06-07, 09:51 AM
A bunch of random newbs just trying to blow shit up. Beta will be be an entirely different game.

Yeah, don't look too hard at the actual E3 gameplay, they set up 3 spawns within a stones throw from the base so everyone was just instantly shooting at anything and everything. The towers weren't even in bounds.

The instant switching and one person MBTs do erk me a bit though.

Xaine
2012-06-07, 09:52 AM
A bunch of random newbs just trying to blow shit up. Beta will be be an entirely different game.

Pretty much this.

While i appreciate what you're trying to do in this thread, the observations we got here are not really representative at all of the actual game, when you consider the map size and the fact that people at E3, for the most part, didn't really know what they were doing.

Beta will be a different game. :)

JHendy
2012-06-07, 09:53 AM
A bunch of random newbs just trying to blow shit up. Beta will be be an entirely different game.

My sentiments exactly.

Figment
2012-06-07, 09:54 AM
Yes, I'm aware it's not going to be the full-on actual gameplay. It's just observations for this demo. :) A lot of it shows how new players think though.

Of course beta changes, but we can always help them with a headstart towards beta.

Stardouser
2012-06-07, 09:56 AM
Pretty much this.

While i appreciate what you're trying to do in this thread, the observations we got here are not really representative at all of the actual game, when you consider the map size and the fact that people at E3, for the most part, didn't really know what they were doing.

Beta will be a different game. :)

When closed beta starts, the game will probably be pretty close to what we're seeing now, minus the parameters set for E3. These observations will be made by closed beta testers a few weeks from now, we may as well make them ourselves now.

Kipper
2012-06-07, 10:05 AM
I think the first few days of beta is going to be chaotic randomness as everyone finds their feet, explores, tries out the new toys etc.

People are going need a few hours or even a few days to get comfortable with it and start doing things more tactically.

The game itself is definitely going to need a few days or a couple of weeks while everyone gets organised and battle lines get established.

LightningDriver
2012-06-07, 10:07 AM
Only one, as a hearing impaired player.


Where the heck is the chat box, and how am I going to communicate with others?

DerFurst
2012-06-07, 10:12 AM
Pilots were crashing into the mid-air debris of the aircraft they just shot down.

Pretty good idea actually.

Aurmanite
2012-06-07, 10:15 AM
Why would anyone pull a Sunderer to transport troops a few hundred feet?

This demo was a mad scramble to do as much as you possibly could in the time you had to play the game.

A lot of your observations lack the proper frame of reference.

chunkeymonkey
2012-06-07, 10:24 AM
The only thing that irks me about the game right now is the massive amount of vehicle collision damage. The worst part of the story is for aircraft, and even with a VTOL system, the aircraft ends up taking a ton of damage just from trying to land.

And all the mad scrabble, CoD like fighting? It's an E3 build, remember it's consolidated to one area. The actual Beta/game will be way different.

Toonlad
2012-06-07, 08:04 PM
Not an exhaustive list by the OP, but pretty much covered a lot of my feelings. Nicely put together :)

But my biggest gripe is the sight picture, obviously dependant on what empire you choose. On the live streams i was finding it very awkward. For want of an example the TR is red framed, and when you get an enemy in your sight, you see red, but i noticed a lot of players seemed to be targetting tons of friendlies due to the fact they see the reticule as red and engaged a friendly lol.

I personally would like to see more definition between enemies and friendlies in the sight picture. Obviously it was live streamed so quality not too great, and alpha build, as on lots of occassions enemy didnt get red tagged name.

To some this may not be a big deal, but you will be looking down your sight 90% of the time. You just have to see from the game play to date all the friendly shooting going on.

So devs if your looking in give it a tweak for me please. Cheers

Malorn
2012-06-07, 08:20 PM
I know Figment didn't want us to comment on other people's observations, but I think he made a lot of great ones, many of which can be extrapolated well beyond the demo, but some of it is just new players not knowing how things work, and/or having lots of resources so you didn't care about losing things.

Overall the big takeaways that I saw was TTK was noticeably too fast.

This makes medic healing and engineer repair a lot less valuable, as was spotting like Figment said, though I expect that will pick up a lot. TTK on vehicles was also way too fast. Nothing lived long enough to be useful and it was really just a matter of who saw the other guy first. That doesn't leave much for strategic or team-based gameplay.

Also support activities did not appear to be encouraged at all. The game doesn't help that either by focusing on kills, killstreaks, k/d, etc, instead of objectives and overall score. So they got what they encouraged.

I think I'll defer to Figment's observations, pretty much the same here. Game looks great, but gameplay has a long way to go.

Edit: oh and of course I like the new centralized UI, but I already had a thread on that.

Stardouser
2012-06-07, 08:25 PM
Overall the big takeaways that I saw was TTK was noticeably too fast.

This makes medic healing and engineer repair a lot less valuable, as was spotting like Figment said, though I expect that will pick up a lot. TTK on vehicles was also way too fast. Nothing lived long enough to be useful and it was really just a matter of who saw the other guy first. That doesn't leave much for strategic or team-based gameplay.


It's good to have you observing this about the TTK, maybe people will take it a bit more seriously now.

Drakkonan
2012-06-07, 08:31 PM
-Total kills is at the top of the stat list, above total score and assist points.
-KDR is right below total kills.

sylphaen
2012-06-07, 08:33 PM
Good post, Figment. I share a lot of your observations.

Here is one I noticed:
- due to the way shield and health regen works, when soldiers meet and both damage each other badly, they both try to hide to wait and trigger the regen.
- an VS infil exchanged fire with a NC LA on a roof but none could finish up each other. Shields regen on the infil. LA pops out for another exchange of rounds but without going through the infil's shield: health starts regening on the infil. No one died, both hide behind cover to wait for regen.

QuantumMechanic
2012-06-07, 08:35 PM
On day 2 or day 3 of the live stream it was mentioned a couple times that the Prowler was the largest of the ES tanks. What?? From the size comparison screen shots that we've seen from a while back it was the smallest of the three.

RNFB
2012-06-07, 08:43 PM
The regen has made the medic job obsolete. Unless there is some super medic power we are not seeing yet.

Medics are not obsolete... they can heal faster than you can regen, and heal during combat better

Malorn
2012-06-07, 08:43 PM
A lot of Figment's observations revolve around TTK being too fast, and I wholeheartedly agree with them. Chains of events like this...

Vehicle TTK high -> Galaxies don't live long -> Galaxy not worth deploying -> Galaxy not used as a mobile spawn

Vehicle TTK high -> Vehicles don't typically survive long enough to escape & repair -> vehicles aren't repaired & sunderer aren't used for repair services

Although you also have to factor in new players won't necessarily know about galaxy and sunderer abilities or how to do them, but there were also a lot of SOE players participating who could have easily done those things and tried to support the new players and show off those features...but they didn't, or couldn't because the TTK was too fast.

So yeah great observations Fig, lot of examples there on how the high TTK dumbed down the gameplay and made things less valuable.

sylphaen
2012-06-07, 08:47 PM
Vehicle TTK high -> Vehicles don't typically survive long enough to escape & repair -> vehicles aren't repaired & sunderer aren't used for repair services


-> Secondary gunners are afraid to jump in the rolling coffin (they would also kill just as fast with their own gun and be more in control of where they go)

cellinaire
2012-06-07, 08:52 PM
I think it's also important to take some of these details to the official PS2 forum. Just sayin'

QuantumMechanic
2012-06-07, 08:56 PM
The day to night transition was fast - like it happens right before your eyes fast. I assume this was just for the E3 demo purposes. I want to have nice lengthy dusk and dawn periods.

Malorn
2012-06-07, 09:23 PM
They appear to have changed the prowler model in the E3 videos. It used to be in-between the mag and the vanguard in width, but shorter than both in length, and sit lowest to the ground.

It definitely is taller now, they may have scaled it out to be bigger.

I liked the old racecar look to it, it fits that its' the fastest tank. The big blocky square prowler from PS1 doesn't feel fast to me and was an easy target.

Prowler of the videos looks different from previous prowler imagery.

And it isn't the only vehicle - since the Air combat video we saw the Reaver tail change from pointing down to being more like a traditional aircraft tail. They may have also changed the prowler model. The Liberator also recently changed. I think many vehicles got minor cosmetic overhauls. Prowler size may have been one of them.

I was going to post on it but I wanted to see more prowler shots before making The Prowler Thread 2.0.

mirwalk
2012-06-07, 09:24 PM
I don't know if I am just seeing things off or not. But some of the guns had some horrible recoil. It seemed like the SMG was pretty nice but the actual assault rifles were everything from spot on to all over the place.

captainkapautz
2012-06-07, 09:26 PM
Only one, as a hearing impaired player.


Where the heck is the chat box, and how am I going to communicate with others?


Well, not being a hearing impaired player I concur. Where is the chat box? Also is cross-faction chat enabled?

Top left corner.

Captain1nsaneo
2012-06-07, 09:56 PM
I think it's also important to take some of these details to the official PS2 forum. Just sayin'

This is the official forum right now.

Partly agree with a lot of problems stemming from this being that the people playing don't know the base layout and such. Partly disagree as this is a micro-beta and we should learn everything we can from it.

What I saw (from day 1 I hear day 2 was better):

No autorun.
Man portable AA doesn't work unless it's MAX AA.
The mini-map is now in color (yay!)
Very low ammo stocks for everyone.
Clegg needs to work on not hogging the microphone.
Gals unused or are short lived.
Tracers no longer work properly. That being that every round is a tracer rather than every 3rd or 5th.
Flame throwers don't do enough damage to justify giving up the range the normal AI weapon has. (should be high vs infantry medium/low vs MAX)
Health regenerates.


I'll think of more after I post this. I always do. But let's talk about that ammo point for a second as I think it's very important.

Light Assault -> deigned to be in hard to reach spots, on their own, flanking -> everyone has low amounts of ammo -> light assaults are only ones who can give out ammo and are thus shackled to the squad.

I really don't think that's the mechanic that you want. Light assaults are cool, I like the idea you have for them but I really don't think that clipping their wings by requiring them to be part of the squad make up. Let's further go into this.

I want in my squad Rexos/MAXs, Medics, and Engies for indoor fights. Now I'm forced to have one of them be light assault despite that if he uses his jetpack at all inside he's just going to get himself killed but I need him for ammo. TTK is fast enough that he will never have the time to be told to flank and to carry out the flank and be useful. Pushing through with MAXs will always be better indoors even when dealing with stairs as the MAX has longer TTK and weaponry. In this the light assault is a burden on the team as we have to keep him alive as he is the squishiest of the squad but critical for its success.
Massive massive problem.

Another squad I'd like to make would be entirely light assaults. Their mobility allows them to get around and attack from angles and if there's several of them I can see them tearing it up. But going inside would compromise their mobility advantage so they have to stay outside with the aircraft which is just fine. I can see that being fun. But if they're critical to normal squad they're going to be constantly running to squads to help them out with ammo and such.

Suggestion: Give ammo to engineers and let light assault keep their explosives. LA should emphasis quickly getting in and out. They shouldn't be part of the normal team dynamic. (the more I think about them the more they seem to be built for lone wolf work)

Regenerating health. Remove it.
The shield regen is fine but remove the health regen. This is something that I thought was nailed down a long time ago in that the health system was going to work like borderlands not halo. This also allows you to have longer TTK systems and avoids peek-a-boo gameplay as each peek costs some health.

Man portable AA problems: the rocket launcher can be scraped off if you know what you're doing in an aircraft. The TR always had problem with their strikers being legitimate AA threats and now every side has their problem and solution. That being that flack is the best AA and shoulder mounted lock-on is terrible AA. This means that pilots no longer need to think about who they're fighting for AA avoidance purposes as everything is homogenized.
tl;dr Faction AV has a large impact on how gameplay is approached by both the user and the used.

In closing, THANK YOU FOR SHOWING US THIS. No seriously, thank you.

raykor
2012-06-07, 09:57 PM
PS2 “may” be amazing but I won’t know that until I spend some time playing it. But from all that I have seen so far, I can absolutely conclude that it is going to be a very different game. There are many changes that I love and many that I really don’t like. Despite all the lip service, I don’t think PS2 is being tailored to satisfy the 50-100k PS1 vets; they are going after the tens of millions of modern shooter fans.

Landtank
2012-06-07, 11:11 PM
I know Figment didn't want us to comment on other people's observations, but I think he made a lot of great ones, many of which can be extrapolated well beyond the demo, but some of it is just new players not knowing how things work, and/or having lots of resources so you didn't care about losing things.

Overall the big takeaways that I saw was TTK was noticeably too fast.

This makes medic healing and engineer repair a lot less valuable, as was spotting like Figment said, though I expect that will pick up a lot. TTK on vehicles was also way too fast. Nothing lived long enough to be useful and it was really just a matter of who saw the other guy first. That doesn't leave much for strategic or team-based gameplay.

Also support activities did not appear to be encouraged at all. The game doesn't help that either by focusing on kills, killstreaks, k/d, etc, instead of objectives and overall score. So they got what they encouraged.

I think I'll defer to Figment's observations, pretty much the same here. Game looks great, but gameplay has a long way to go.

Edit: oh and of course I like the new centralized UI, but I already had a thread on that.


Great post, I agree with a lot of what you said.

By beta I'm sure the vehicle collision damaged will be toned down, and then we can see during beta if everything works how it was designed, in a large multi kilometer map instead of in a tight CoD style area.

I'm hoping medics and engineers are almost as common as standard troopers, they are absolutely critical to maintaining a proper front line.

capiqu
2012-06-07, 11:52 PM
TR max runs like a girl.

klu
2012-06-08, 12:01 AM
it seems character names are in a caps only font, i do not approve of mandatory capitalization

DayOne
2012-06-08, 01:31 AM
Vehicle terrain damage needs to be toned down a LOT! I don't want trees of doom all over again and obviously fall damage will be turned up, I hope.