MAX Style Inconsistencies / Feedback

[Malorn]

The MAX weapons seem a bit off in terms of how they map to empire characteristics.

Lets look at the ES MAX weaponry.


AI:
- TR Cycler, 50 round magazine
- NC Scattercannon, 3 round magazine
- VS Quasar, 50 round magazine

AV
- TR Pounder, 3 round magazine
- NC Falcon, 7 round magazine
- VS Comet, ??? (I don't know, I didn't look at the comet to see if there was an issue, I'll edit in once I learn it)

So what's the problem? On the AI front, what seems odd to me is the VS AI gun, because it has the same capacity as the TR Cycler. I would expect the Cycler to be the AI MAX weapon with the most ammo because it has the fastest firing rate. As far as I could tell I could see no difference between the fire rate of the Quasar and the Cycler. It seemed like the ES characterstics for these two weapons were simply missing. I would expect the Quasar to have a slower rate of fire, be a bit more accurate, and have a magazine size in the 30-40 range (matching the lower rate of fire).

On the AV front, NC and TR look bass ackwards. Why does the pounder only have 3 shots while the falcon has 7? This seems neither correct for the NC, nor correct for the TR. I expect the TR to have more rounds and a higher fire rate than the NC, and I expect the NC to have fewer rounds and do more damage per shot than the TR. Sort of like how the Scattercannon is. The Scattercannon looks right to me. It's powerful, it has a nice tight spread, but it isn't fast and can only fire 3 shots before reloading. That looks to be exactly how the Pounder behaves, which is uncharacteristic of TR.


Also, a few more MAX comments regarding models/animations;

1) The run animation for the TR MAX looks really goofy with arms flailing about. Maybe reel that in a bit?

2) The VS MAX is difficult to discern from a heavy assault due to its shape. I had no problem identifying NC and TR MAX, but the VS max was hard to differentiate from infantry. It needs to be a little bulkier or have a more easily defined shape so it can be clearly recognized as a MAX and not HA.

[kaffis]

1) The run animation for the TR MAX looks really goofy with arms flailing about. Maybe reel that in a bit?

2) The VS MAX is difficult to discern from a heavy assault due to its shape. I had no problem identifying NC and TR MAX, but the VS max was hard to differentiate from infantry. It needs to be a little bulkier or have a more easily defined shape so it can be clearly recognized as a MAX and not HA.
I don't remember seeing any TR MAX perspective where they weren't using dual heavy cyclers, and I don't remember paying attention to any of the VS MAX weapons when they were on-screen. So I won't comment on the balance (though I believe 7 rounds is what the Falcon had in PS1). However, I'll pull these two out, because they struck me, too.

The VS MAX could definitely use a little more bulk from the waist down, and could perhaps build up the shoulders some around the neck. I think this would help.

For me, I don't mind the "flailing" arms on the TR -- except that that animation isn't matched from the MAX's perspective, where his first-person running animation shows his weapons staying pretty well trained forward. Pick one, and make the other match it; I don't care which you pick.

[Xyntech]

I feel like one or two thin spikey bits coming off the legs and other parts of the VS MAX would preserve it's more slim style while still making it easy to identify.

As for weapons, I agree it needs to be tweaked, but the game isn't heavily balanced yet. I'd like to see the TR Cycler MAX get lower damage per shot, but much faster fire speed and much much more ammo.

I'd lile to see the TR MAX hold it's guns vertical, bent upwards at the elbow when running. More compact instead of flailing.

[Arokel]

Have to disagree with the VS MAX looking too much like the VS heavy assault. The VS MAX has those massive shoulders and like the other MAXs it holds its arms different from any other unit.

I can see what you're saying because they are a little bit similar but in the end I don't think it will be an issue.

[SztEltviz]

Yes, TR max cycler is way to slow, it's thup-thup-thup instead of Prrrrrr :D

[Malorn]

It's obvious when you see a TR and NC max. It isn't immediately obvious when you see a VS max. I agree with Xyn that a few more spikey bits on the shoulders and legs is probably all that's needed, but it needs something. Target identification is not something that should differ between empires, all maxes should be easily recognizable as maxes and not infantry. That's an important part of gameplay that should not be lopsided across empires.

As for the cycler, I too would like to see it fire a lot faster. More lead.

However, there is a logistical issue with that, and that is that the more projectiles it fires the more projectiles need to be rendered and transmitted. That means more lag, both visual and network. They might be trying to keep the TR weapons from being overly spammy for better performance. But yes, I agree it feels slow, and should be rougly 33-50% faster than what it is now.

[ringring]

Are Maxes finished yet or were there placeholders installed in this build?

[Malorn]

It could be that the reason the quasar and the cycler looked so similar is because the Quasar (or the cycler) may not be finished yet and they were literal mirrors of each other in the demo, but with different animations.

[Razicator]

I've noticed that when the TR maxes are sprinting, their upper torsos twist left and right so much it looks ridiculous.

[sylphaen]

Important MAX inconsistency: no one is jealous of the VS MAX looks. People actually make fun of it. Something is clearly wrong !
:(

[chanic]

A bit off topic but did you guys see the NC scattercannon MAX firing at night? Holy crap that was awesome!

And yeah, the AV ammo quantities for the NC and TR MAXes definitely seems backwards for their faction tendencies. No comment on the TR/VS anti-infantry weapon ammo count and firing rate being so similar. Considering that the VS MAX stopped walking around like a giant alien lobster in just the last couple of weeks it's probably a safe bet that it's not really done yet, so placeholders are likely.

[Atheosim]

I agree that the firing rate for the TR DC MAX is abysmal. Honestly I thought that the firing rate of the non-locked down DC MAX in PS1 was pathetic as well. Maybe they're going that route again: locking down yields a massive increase in fire rate.

[chanic]

I think it would be a nice touch if they made the dual cycler more unique by having it spin up as you fire it. Maybe have its initial fire rate be slightly slower than the quasar, but have it pass it up after a second and then become a fair bit faster.

[Zulthus]

I'm VS, but I'd have to say my main gripe overall is how slow the TR max fires. They should raise the ammo count to 100, drop the damage, and speed up the ROF.

[Arokel]

I'm VS, but I'd have to say my main gripe overall is how slow the TR max fires. They should raise the ammo count to 100, drop the damage, and speed up the ROF.

Seems like it would be infringing on TR territory there with faster rof.

[Zulthus]

Seems like it would be infringing on TR territory there with faster rof.

What? How? TR are supposed to get as many bullets out as possible in the shortest amount of time.

[Arokel]

What? How? TR are supposed to get as many bullets out as possible in the shortest amount of time.

I completely misread your post. Thought you said VS MAX was firing too slow.
:(

[GreatMazinkaise]

They should give the TR MAX a continuous ammo feed instead. Also, did anyone notice if the TR Bursters were double-barreled or not? I hope so.

[chanic]

Hey wait. While watching the IGN interview stream I noticed the NC MAX scattercannon had a 7-shot magazine. You sure you didn't get the scattercannon and falcon ammo counts backwards, OP?

If that is the case, then falcon and pounder also both have 3 ammo. Maybe more placeholder stuff going on?

[GoldDragon]

The MAX weapons seem a bit off in terms of how they map to empire characteristics.

Lets look at the ES MAX weaponry.


AI:
- TR Cycler, 50 round magazine (75-100 mag, higher RoF, less Dmg)
- NC Scattercannon, 3 round magazine (I suppose this is fine depending on reload time)
- VS Quasar, 50 round magazine (should be 30 with slower RoF, little more Dmg)

AV
- TR Pounder, 3 round magazine (10-20 mag, higher RoF, less Dmg)
- NC Falcon, 7 round magazine (same as above for NC)
- VS Comet, ??? (I'd say 10 mag with appropriate RoF and Dmg)

Nice catch on this stuff, my thoughts in ( ) after what you have above.

Yes, TR max cycler is way to slow, it's thup-thup-thup instead of Prrrrrr :D

Yesh. XD

though I believe 7 rounds is what the Falcon had in PS1

It was a 20 round clip actually lol.

And that's that. Look forward to Beta! :D

[Arokel]

They should give the TR MAX a continuous ammo feed instead. Also, did anyone notice if the TR Bursters were double-barreled or not? I hope so.

Didn't look like it to me. If they are then the muzzle cover (not sure what its called) is shared by the two barrels.

[Bravix]

I never had any trouble identifying the MAX's, including VS.

I thought the TR gun was fine...much faster and it'll lose effectiveness. Increasing speed/ammo would require higher recoil and lower damage. Plus it'll spam the audio and not sound as 'mean' as the current version. I'm tired of hearing the standard minigun prrrrr, this was a nice change.

Don't worry TR, I'm sure your MCG will prrrrr.

[Malorn]

Hey wait. While watching the IGN interview stream I noticed the NC MAX scattercannon had a 7-shot magazine. You sure you didn't get the scattercannon and falcon ammo counts backwards, OP?

If that is the case, then falcon and pounder also both have 3 ammo. Maybe more placeholder stuff going on?

According to this screenshot:
http://i.imgur.com/TfXXG.jpg

Scat cannon is on the left, and the indicator under it says "3", with the Falcon on the right, with the indicator under it "7".

From the video I saw numerous instances of the scat cannon firing 3 times and then reloading.

[Johari]

AI:
- TR Cycler, 50 round magazine
- NC Scattercannon, 3 round magazine
- VS Quasar, 50 round magazine

AV
- TR Pounder, 3 round magazine
- NC Falcon, 7 round magazine
- VS Comet, ??? (I don't know, I didn't look at the comet to see if there was an issue, I'll edit in once I learn it)


Actually you have the NC AV and AI mixed up. All three empires MAX AV is 3 rounds and the NC Scattercannon is 7.

Edit: Bravix beat me to it. and I know what the screenshot shows but the E3 videos were different. Perhaps just a mix up. Let me find the video times for the NC MAX...

Ok so once again theres a burster on the left with 7 but the ammo counter goes down on the right off of the 28.
http://youtu.be/98bGepZsKc4?t=24m59s

And again this part shows Falcon shooting off once 3->2 while the scatter cannon fires off 7->2
http://youtu.be/fLakXgelJGY?t=6m11s

[Gonefshn]

Any chaingun in real life and even in other games fires SOOO much faster than the DC TR Max. I'm with you guys, it should SPRAY bullets like a storm.

I LOVE the VS max though. seeing it with more finished animation really made me love it more. I embrace the crab arms and think it's fantastic!

I do agree though the AV and AI weapons are so similar you can't really tell the difference until it's shooting you.

[kaffis]

It was a 20 round clip actually lol.
Gah. Was the Sparrow 8 or something, then?

[Hmr85]

I'm sure with proper certifications these numbers could be adjusted. Such as the TR ROF increasing along with on hand Ammo. Same for the other MAX's. I guess that is where that customization comes in. I wouldn't worry to much about this till we get in beta and actually look at the cert trees for the individual MAX's.

Edit: I agree the VS MAX needs a change of some sort. He does blend in with HA really well. The Extra spiky bits as mentioned above would probably do it.

[mirwalk]

The MAX weapons seem a bit off in terms of how they map to empire characteristics.

Lets look at the ES MAX weaponry.


AI:
- TR Cycler, 50 round magazine
- NC Scattercannon, 3 round magazine
- VS Quasar, 50 round magazine

AV
- TR Pounder, 3 round magazine
- NC Falcon, 7 round magazine
- VS Comet, ??? (I don't know, I didn't look at the comet to see if there was an issue, I'll edit in once I learn it)

So what's the problem? On the AI front, what seems odd to me is the VS AI gun, because it has the same capacity as the TR Cycler. I would expect the Cycler to be the AI MAX weapon with the most ammo because it has the fastest firing rate. As far as I could tell I could see no difference between the fire rate of the Quasar and the Cycler. It seemed like the ES characterstics for these two weapons were simply missing. I would expect the Quasar to have a slower rate of fire, be a bit more accurate, and have a magazine size in the 30-40 range (matching the lower rate of fire).

On the AV front, NC and TR look bass ackwards. Why does the pounder only have 3 shots while the falcon has 7? This seems neither correct for the NC, nor correct for the TR. I expect the TR to have more rounds and a higher fire rate than the NC, and I expect the NC to have fewer rounds and do more damage per shot than the TR. Sort of like how the Scattercannon is. The Scattercannon looks right to me. It's powerful, it has a nice tight spread, but it isn't fast and can only fire 3 shots before reloading. That looks to be exactly how the Pounder behaves, which is uncharacteristic of TR.


Also, a few more MAX comments regarding models/animations;

1) The run animation for the TR MAX looks really goofy with arms flailing about. Maybe reel that in a bit?

2) The VS MAX is difficult to discern from a heavy assault due to its shape. I had no problem identifying NC and TR MAX, but the VS max was hard to differentiate from infantry. It needs to be a little bulkier or have a more easily defined shape so it can be clearly recognized as a MAX and not HA.
I have to say if the other two AI weapons get 50 round then the scatter better have at least 20 or drop any infantry short of a MAX with one shot. Come on 3 rounds?

[Malorn]

I have to say if the other two AI weapons get 50 round then the scatter better have at least 20 or drop any infantry short of a MAX with one shot. Come on 3 rounds?

The scattercannon was no joke, that thing was dropping infantry in 1-2 hits, and it's not exactly something that requires precision.

It's power was offset by a slow ROF and having to reload (which didn't take long) every 3 shots.

That's the NC style - hard hitting, slow ROF. I didn't see anything wrong with that, other than the TTK in general being very fast.

[captainkapautz]

They should give the TR MAX a continuous ammo feed instead. Also, did anyone notice if the TR Bursters were double-barreled or not? I hope so.

Single-barrel.

Burster also is NS atm, so it's commonpool AA for all 3 factions.

[GreatMazinkaise]

Single-barrel.

How very sad... single-barreled Bursters are not sufficiently dakka.

[Malorn]

Burster is common pool now like the flamethrower so you wont' see differences between NC/TR/VS.

[kaffis]

According to this screenshot:
http://i.imgur.com/TfXXG.jpg

Scat cannon is on the left, and the indicator under it says "3", with the Falcon on the right, with the indicator under it "7".

From the video I saw numerous instances of the scat cannon firing 3 times and then reloading.
Check Johari's video bookmarks -- he's right, the UI appears to be backwards for the arms.

[Johari]

I think it has something to do with primary and secondary fire. While your Left mouse button fires the the right arm while your Right mouse button fires the left arm but the ammo counter is for the mouse and not the actual weapon loadout. The way I see it is that the left is usually your primary which everyone is used to while right was secondary. Maybe trying to get around getting people used to a right-right left-left line up.

Either its pretty unwieldy or just a switcheroo.

Just another, Just after 5:15
http://www.ign.com/videos/2012/06/07/ign-live-planetside-2-demo-e3-2012

[TaintedPaladin]

Yea if you watch the video you can see the weapon fire depleting the rounds in the magazine, showing that the Falcon has 3 rounds while the Scattercannon has 7 The UI was switched by bug or something else.

[mirwalk]

glad the burster is common pool now. I found in most games lockon weapons are near useless against good air. To easy to flare/afterburn out of the way. But flak? You either chase them off to repair or they go down.