What class should carry ammo packs? [Archive]

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 10:02 AM

Ok, we already have a debate going so let's see what community thinks by making a poll. Ammo boxes are controversial subject by themselves however I support the idea that one class should be able to carry 1-2 boxes with them for field supplies.

Here is my take on the situation:

LIGHT ASSAULT - They are currently given this role however there are fears that they will abuse this by going completely solo. They could just jet-off to some inaccessible point to other classes and stay there for long time resupplying themselves. Also if you think from lore perspective why burden the jet-packing class with ammo boxes? However if carrying ammo boxes would actually limit their ability to jet-pack I would be more welcoming to this idea. Also from the personal perspective of that class it will be the easiest for them to get back to nearby Galaxy for resupply since they are the most mobile class.

HEAVY ASSAULT - They are my favorite for this role. From lore standpoint they are the bulkiest softy class and thus should have most carry capacity, also they have enough mobility to be good at this role. Also I presume that their will have least favorable ammo consumption/capacity ratio, so from class perspective they will run out of ammo the most. Of course I can see concerns that they could be turned into walking Ammo dispenser with unlimited supplies however this shouldn't be true if these requirements are met - 1. one (default) or max two ammo as a tradeoff for some other piece of equipment (energy shield i.e.), 2. their have least favorable consumption/capacity ratio for ammo. 3. they should only be able to carry Ammo for anti-infantry weapons like rifles not for AV weapons like rocket launchers.

ENGINEER - They are my second candidate for this role, however I think they will have too much things in their bags and it would be inadequate to force them to sacrifice something like deployable turrets and covers or landmines for ammo boxes. I think that they would be overburdened with this task also dropped on their back.

MEDIC - Makes no sense from lore and game play standpoint. Also being able to resupply yourself with ammo and heal yourself seems OP imo.

INFILTRATOR - No sense from lore standpoint, they should pack lightly and play alone most of the time. Their support roles is sniping and scouting.

MAX - Some people suggested this class as Ammo distributors however I wholeheartedly disagree. I can see some of the point behind this suggestion however I think there are more cons. First from both game play and lore it doesn't make much sense... my take is that MAXes are meant to be weapons of destruction not walking ammo dispensers. Dropping this task in their hand won't be fun for them, especially if they couldn't resupply themselves with that ammo and if they could then it would be OP. Also they are the slowest unit in the game and making them carry ammo supplies is not efficient for ammo distribution. Also they will be the most in need for field resupplies once they run out of ammo since it will be the hardest/most time consuming for them to run to nearest Galaxy, so they should definitely be able to be resupplied in field if that option existed in the game yet putting that ability in their hands would make them OP imo.

Please vote and share your opinions.

EDIT: For new guys reading this, I actually now stand even more firmly behind the idea of HA being the Ammo pack carrier. However since we don't know ammo pool for HAs assault rifle I would even be fine if it's reduced to smaller size if it's too big right now and the rest of the ammo is provided in form of Ammo packs which others can use to resupply too if in vicinity. Engineers aren't suitable for this roles and would be OP imo.

Kran De Loy

2012-06-09, 10:11 AM

After my knee jerk reaction of absolute hate for ammo dropping, it's easy to realized that with the inventory system being removed it's a logical step over to compensate for the lack of inventory.

I agree with many of the points in the OP except you almost left out that LA are a quickly killed class. Yes they're the most mobile thus they're the easiest and quickest to get to allies in need as well as they are the only ones that can get to troops effectively cut off from any other class.

Also they're easy targets to shoot down.

That said LA should keep the ammo drop as is.

ThermalReaper

2012-06-09, 10:12 AM

Who needs ammo? You can just shove a stick up your butt and beat the enemies to death like Garrus. :lol:

On topic: LETS WAIT FOR BETA AND THEN SEE IF THE ROLE DOES NOT FIT LIGHT ASSAULT. Ok?

kaffis

2012-06-09, 10:21 AM

I'm for keeping it on LA. Any lone wolf fears are mitigated by the fact that they're the second lightest armored and are limited to carbines instead of long-range rifles.

As has been mentioned, their mobility means they can quickly get to where the ammo is needed when somebody calls that they're out, and I feel that all the other classes, save medic and infiltrator, are a bigger lone-wolf threat because they're both more heavily armed and armored. Infiltrators, similarly, are a bad choice because they're already built to work behind enemy lines or lone-wolfing as a sniper at range, and ammo should probably be a limiting factor for how long they can work in such a fashion. Medics already have a good support role, and it doesn't feel very thematic.

Keep ammo supply as the LA's squad support role; as people get used to the game, their enemies will work together better, and they'll realize that lone-wolfing isn't the most productive use of their time as a LA.

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 10:25 AM

Yes they're the most mobile thus they're the easiest and quickest to get to allies in need as well as they are the only ones that can get to troops effectively cut off from any other class.

Also they're easy targets to shoot down.

Point one is also the source of possible abuse and concerns. HP difference between HA and LA won't justify possible cons imo if it's left in the same as in as in PS1 and that is 2:1.

As I said if LAs actually sacrificed mobility by carrying Ammo packs so they can't reach most inaccessible areas to other classes I would find them more suitable for this role then.

On topic: LETS WAIT FOR BETA AND THEN SEE IF THE ROLE DOES NOT FIT LIGHT ASSAULT. Ok?

We ready saw at E3 guys flying to the roof an resupplying themselves there. However I never saw LA drop ammo for others, so we can tell something. Also it's allowed to theorize and if you don't want to simply don't.

Rbstr

2012-06-09, 10:26 AM

Why do so many people have a hard on for gimping the Jump jets or removing LA's most prominent teamwork role?

So someone goes and camps on top of a tower...they are squishy and only seem to pack the compact rifles.
You gimp the jumpjets to carry ammo and you ensure no one carries ammo.

Everyone else has something to do, except HA and MAX, and I'd rather they be the ones that have to worry about ammo stores.

Cuross

2012-06-09, 10:28 AM

Who needs ammo? You can just shove a stick up your butt and beat the enemies to death like Garrus. :lol:

On topic: LETS WAIT FOR BETA AND THEN SEE IF THE ROLE DOES NOT FIT LIGHT ASSAULT. Ok?

Haha, not sure you said it right, but you get cool points for trying :P

I like it on the LA since engies already get a resupply station or something whatever to deploy haha.

The Degenatron

2012-06-09, 10:32 AM

Reposting what I wrote in the other thread:

I think it's fine the way it is. Support roles are suppose to be more vulnerable. That gives the enemy a chance to attack your logistics.

MAXs have a specific purpose: massive attack. Giving them a support role undermines their original purpose.

The idea that this is how a MAX would "pay for repairs" is patently rediculous. I've never expected anything from a MAX I repaired except a hardy "Thanks!". MAXs pay their way by killing everything they see.

Now maybe "Walking ammo create" was a role you could use a MAX for in PS1, but this isn't PS1. PS2 has much more clearly defined class roles. That's something you need to start getting use to.

I don't think an Engy should despense ammo unless it means that he can't repair.

I'm also OK with LAs carying the ammo because it means they can do their jobs as shock troops; out alone deep in the enemy lines. But it also means they have a place within a tight squad structure if that's the way they want to play it.

If this all comes about because of consternation over LAs having both a jetpack and an ammo crate, then make it "either-or". Ut if you're going to take that approach, then why not do it for the engy instead, since they can take a little more punishment.

Give the LAs a suit of spotting tools that let them act as the scouts, instead of giving that to the infiltrators as is the plan now. That way, the classes break down like this:

Inf : Sniper / Saboture
LA : Shock / Scout
Eng: Repair / Resupply
Med: Medic / AI
HA : Support AI / AV
MAX: Frontline AI / AV

Personally, I'm ok with they way the devs are going.

Figment

2012-06-09, 10:35 AM

Could you add the option "none, Sunderer/ams/equip term/Galaxy suffices".

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 10:37 AM

Could you add the option "none, Sunderer/ams/equip term/Galaxy suffices".

It is said in OP that the subject of being able to supply at all is somewhat controversial, however that's not the question here.

Death2All

2012-06-09, 10:42 AM

Why do so many people have a hard on for gimping the Jump jets or removing LA's most prominent teamwork role?

Because most of us (and I use that sparingly) have a large FPS backround and know the mentality of players. Giving an ammo pack (which is already lame cop out mechanic for solving the issue of running out of ammo) to extremely mobile class would only lead to selfish gameplay. I.E. camping.

So someone goes and camps on top of a tower...they are squishy and only seem to pack the compact rifles.
You gimp the jumpjets to carry ammo and you ensure no one carries ammo.

Obviously, you're aware, or you can someone rationalize that somehow the LA class having ammo would lead to camping. Using some excuse or narrow minded solution to problem doesn't solve it all. Camping would still be an issue, regardless of how squishy they are or what weapons they have would be neither here nor there.

The issue is the fact that camping would endure at all. Yes, camping is going to happen regardless, but when you give players easier to tools do so, it's obviously going to be more prevalent.

Everyone else has something to do, except HA and MAX, and I'd rather they be the ones that have to worry about ammo stores.

LA's class ability should just be the fact that he has jump jets. Is that not advantageous enough? Why does he need to have ammo packs, or call down orbital strikes or summon Fire Bats from Hades that have a 15% chance to cause corrosive damage to undead targets that deals 8% ice damage over 12 seconds? Simple answer, he doesn't. Jump Jets serve fine as a class ability. He gets a huge mobility boost. I say again, he doesn't need anything else.

Leave the support roles to a class that's support oriented. Like the Engineer.

I've posted this in another thread but I'll post it here as well:

The Engineer is the only class that should be given the ability to resupply friendlies with ammo:

I thought that the only class that makes sense to give ammo to other plays would be the Engineer. I always thought they should have some device on their ACE that let's them deploy a dispenser a la TF2 that gives friendlies ammo.

It certainly increases teamwork much more than dropping an ammo pack on the floor ever would. Plus it would add a dynamic of setting up ammo dispensers near the front line to keep the fight going and ensure you wouldn't lose your foothold. Logistics like that are what make Planetside awesome, everyone should have a role, whether it's killing the shit out of people or being the giving ammo to everyone else.

Down with ammo packs! They're unobtrusive and a lame cop out mechanic for solving the issue of ammo resupply. It's just shitty in my opinion.

If you honestly believe that somehow giving LA's the ability to drop ammo will make players more likely to play more of a support role (which you obviously don't sense you clearly addressed that camping would happen given such circumstances) then you're a mongoloid that has lost all merit when discussing which abilities should be given to which class.

MrBloodworth

2012-06-09, 10:43 AM

What class should carry ammo packs?

None.

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 10:49 AM

Why do so many people have a hard on for gimping the Jump jets or removing LA's most prominent teamwork role?

Please leave your observation on what sexually arouses other for different kind of forums. HA have no support role as well yet I suggested that something should be "gimped" from them too in return for being able to carry few ammo boxes. It's a trade-off thing not trying to gimp LA.

Sorry but it makes no sense to me that jet-packers carry ammo crates. If we presume that at Galaxies you could pick up new boxes of ammo this would make Ammo too accessible since LA can jump over the wall and are most mobile - multiple times in comparison to other classes. HA seem to be middle ground in respect to these facts and I find them more suitable. They are mobile enough yet aren't too mobile so we won't see ammo crates all over the place, also they don't pack nearly as much firepower or HP as MAXes do. HA will in reality be medium class in this game (MAX are true heavies) and the name is actually a misnomer and can lead to unnecessary prejudices and fears.

LAs should scout imo, that is what this class natural support purpose is.

Rumblepit

2012-06-09, 10:58 AM

i said heavy assault, as it stands they have know support role in ps2 .

Top Sgt

2012-06-09, 10:58 AM

those of you voting light assault.. Devs have already said it's gonna be switched from LA's to something else

to what class we don't know yet.

As I stated in my other monster thread on this

To me make engineers be able to construct ammo dumps/caches that are destroyable by the enemy also.

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 10:58 AM

I'd like to say that if you're out of ammo, you're out of ammo. Tough luck, find an equipment terminal / resupply point. It encourages ammo conservation.

But, that's not likely to happen. Since Heavy Assault should be focusing on... assaulting things, my recommendation goes to the Engineer.

Remember, they don't necessarily need to be carrying this ammo on them; this is a future where nanites can build anything out of practically nothing (resources in the local vicinity broken down into their base elements I assume). Engineers are already toting around a crap ton of nanites, what's a few more that create ammo?

It also means that assault classes will be reliant upon Engineers to help keep the bullets flowing and Medics to keep them alive.

I don't want to see Heavy Assaults going lone wolf all over the place and just resupplying themselves. I saw that in one of the Battlefield games I think and it was dumb.

Shade Millith

2012-06-09, 11:01 AM

Personally, it doesn't mater which class it goes with. Most likely Engineer if I had to choose.

All I want is that the number of uses is limited to one or two per inventory station usage. Does not contain Grenades or deployables. No infinite ammo from thin air.

Figment

2012-06-09, 11:02 AM

It is said in OP that the subject of being able to supply at all is somewhat controversial, however that's not the question here.

It is very much the question. This poll only supposes people are okay with ammo packs. It diminishes the role of equip term hacking and setting up hard resupply points.

ThermalReaper

2012-06-09, 11:03 AM

I suppose I should explain my post. Most people will be playing in outfits(Including me, just joined the vindicators. yey) and surely will supply each other. Besides I doubt lone wolves would be THAT stupid to not supply anyone. As for the E3 demo, Not everyone was shown in the stream, mostly lone wolves other than those slick galaxy drops from the NC. Not many medics or light classes(Ok, they were more than a few, but not in a squad.)

In conclusion, I think we should still be waiting for beta. Not to say you don't have any valid points, because you do, but as we all know E3 wasn't the real thing.

As for my vote, I voted LA because they are the most manvue- manvera- m- THEY HAVE JUMPJETS MAN!

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 11:05 AM

It is very much the question. This poll only supposes people are okay with ammo packs. It diminishes the role of equip term hacking and setting up hard resupply points.

Not in this thread, make a new one if you wish to see how many people support ammo field resupplies. :rolleyes: This poll supposes nothing, it simply asks you what class would be most appropriate - it does not ask you if you want ammo boxes or not.

Figment

2012-06-09, 11:15 AM

Crustion

2012-06-09, 11:15 AM

I voted for the current LA.

The Engineer and Medic already have thier own niche of revives/repairs/deployables where as once inside a facility/guarding objectives the LA brings very little to the group table. I dont think we want Engineer's resupplying there own huge Max bodyguards.

To help promote the team-playing aspect you could always change the ammo packs to only resupply other players, not yourself.

ThermalReaper

2012-06-09, 11:18 AM

What resupplies you then? It's a great idea though.

Gonefshn

2012-06-09, 11:20 AM

I think HA. They are going to be a mainstay of infantry forces and they don't currently have a support role.

Also They are meant to have lots of firepower so I think it makes sense to give them resupply.

GuyFawkes

2012-06-09, 11:22 AM

Johari

2012-06-09, 11:24 AM

Daimond

2012-06-09, 11:24 AM

Engineer - Is my selection, as I stated months ago about as to why. I see them as a re-arm/Repair class, that would carry around a number Nanite canasters that can be used to either repair or drop ammo. this way should balance out the though of save canasters to repair or -rearm guys. can have its own tree for amount of canasters they can carry even.

Just seems silly to me to let any Assualt class drop ammo, if they let LA do it then they should give the ability to all assualt classes eg LA, HA nd maxes makes just as much sence. Just dont like that idea at all.

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 11:26 AM

Why don't you understand that None, All, Several, New Class and Other are also choices you could have?

I can't vote on this poll in its current state, it is too oriented on maintaining or tweaking the status quo.

Why won't you understand/accept the fact that that wasn't the question (I wanted to ask) here? As I said if you want to pose a different question make a new poll, I don't understand your problem and refuse to debate on this particular matter further.

Not voting is a legitimate choice too and I respect your opinion. You don't have to vote in every single poll on this forum you know.. :D

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 11:27 AM

Ever since Neurotoxin posted the pictures with the cert trees I've calmed down a little about this topic. Why? Because the Engineers can choose to deploy a Mobile Armaments Supply Terminal. Maybe make this deploy able Unlimited ammo resupply while the LA is a one or two time drop.

I didn't notice that.

IMO, remove ammo boxes entirely then. The engineer will deploy supply terminals and it will be the responsibility of troops to protect those terminals, conserve ammo, and return for more ammo if necessary.

Rexdezi

2012-06-09, 11:28 AM

What resupplies you then? It's a great idea though.

another LA? I suppose that would encourage team play. Although I am in favour of giving the ammo drops to the Heavy Assault's... right now, they have a somewhat negligent role... You want to take out Infantry with a HA? Why not use a MAX equipped for Anti Infantry...
You want to take out aircraft/armour with the HA's rocket launcher? Why not use an AA/AT MAX?
Give the HA ammo drops and it actually gives them a useful role.

2coolforu

2012-06-09, 11:30 AM

Why would engineers carry ammo when they can already deploy a dispenser?

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 11:35 AM

Ever since Neurotoxin posted the pictures with the cert trees I've calmed down a little about this topic. Why? Because the Engineers can choose to deploy a Mobile Armaments Supply Terminal. Maybe make this deploy able Unlimited ammo resupply while the LA is a one or two time drop.

Woot this is great! But is still think HAs should be able to carry an ammo box or two just in case. I guess that these Supply Terminals will require power to operate right? In any case ST could only be deployed in secured areas otherwise they will get blown up pretty fast, so need for carrying AB for front-line use isn't entirely removed.

Crustion

2012-06-09, 11:37 AM

The dispenser might be a vehicle re-supply point since there's no lodestar.

IMMentat

2012-06-09, 11:40 AM

I voted MAX, in PS1 I always carried spare ammo/supplies for softies in all setups. It also works out for encouraging other classes to provide backup for MAX users.

After thinking about it more am torn between medic and engineer (also?) getting ammo packs/stations.
The medic needs folks to not run around like loons in oder to heal effectivley so an ammo pack could help this.
OTOH, engineers are the traditional ammo vendors, though so far engineers seem to have few jobs other than #place deployable here.

The only thing i'm sure of is that Infiltrators, HA and LA will not use the packs effectivley, they will resupply themselves in a safe area and mostly ignore others needing supplies.

Ohanka

2012-06-09, 11:41 AM

Engineer. Makes sense.

ThermalReaper

2012-06-09, 11:42 AM

If that's the case then sure, give it to either Heavy or Light assault as a one-three times per life/resupply station and the engineers get a dispenser.

Hmr85

2012-06-09, 11:46 AM

Unless where going to ever go back to the old PS1 style with inventory and such which doesn't look like its ever going to happen. Then I am of the opinion they give it to engineers. It just does not make sense for LA to have the ability.

Zebasiz

2012-06-09, 11:46 AM

Engineers could have a deployable ammo station like they deploy turrets. It would last for only a short time or limited use, but would act as a mini-terminal. But for the most part arn't engineers more often by, or in the armor? Usually repairing tanks right behind the front line etc. Not often near the infantry unless their setting up a turret. Also engineers already can repair, make turrets, lay mines, and possibly some other options we haven't seen yet.
But the medics are always going to be with the other infantry. They can heal/revive and drop ammo.
Every class doesn't need support abilities. Having 2 full support classes that can also shoot people seems more than enough.

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 11:52 AM

I know that the matter of LAs is mostly settled since devs said they'll give that ability to other class but here another reason against giving Ammo packs to LA:

Consider the situation going one-on-one against LA and he runs out-of-ammo. Any class is toast in that case and has to run for life to find a safe point to resupply. However it is the easiest for LA since he can just jump over the wall/on the roof and resupply in relative safety and get back in quickly. Other classes without jet-packs can't do that and would have to either run to safety or suffer the incoming damage while resupplying in the field. Note: HA shouldn't be able to resupply with force shield activated or that could be problematic too.

bigcracker

2012-06-09, 11:57 AM

Light assault makes the best sense to me why might you ask?

Heavy Assault will be able to use anti tank weapons / anti air weapons.So you want him to be able to spam that all day and not have to move?
Engys can drop mines and turrets so Samething as the heavy assault.People are worried that a Light assault is gonna jump pack into your base get on a tower and grenade spam you,Well if they want to waste resources like that good for them and if you and your outfit cant kill 1 guy then there is a problem. Leave its with Light Assault it only makes sense.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 11:59 AM

I'm aware LAs will most likely lose ammo drop, but i don't like it.

Posting what i put on the other thread:

If they gave ammo packs to HAs, they'd drop it for themselves only, just like LAs have been doing... and don't get me wrong, i think they should be getting the extra ammo, but that just doesn't seem like coordenated group play to me.
If we're encouraging self ammo resuply, why not just give everyone bigger ammo reserves and be done with it?

The way i see it, zerglins will keep dropping ammo just for themselves, yes. But in an organized squad, the logical thing would be to have one of the LAs running around resupplying their front line pushers.

We shouldn't hinder smart gameplay just to dumb down the options so dumb players won't screw up. If LAs want to deny their side's HAs and MAXes the ammo, they should lose... That would be rewarding coordination and penalizing selfish zergs.

My idea was:

LAs could choose between c4 or droping ammo packs a couple of times per respawn. In the later case, if they run to an engi's dispenser, they resupply not only their ammo but that ability aswell. That way a LA could focus on support if they want to. He'd stay sort of tethered to an engi, running around the front lines dropping ammo to HAs and MAXes and returning to help the engi defend his nest.

This gives LAs another role to choose, one that not only helps front liners keep pushing, but also helps engis keep up a defensive position the front liners can fall back to if they're in trouble.

In the few war movies i've seen, the ammo guy keeps running around like a maniac trying to restock the others... it's not someone with a heavy machine gun to slow him down.

BTW, as for HAs never being used because MAXes do their jobs better: MAXes cost resources (i'm pretty sure), being HA doesn't.

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 12:01 PM

Heavy Assault will be able to use anti tank weapons / anti air weapons.So you want him to be able to spam that all day and not have to move?

Read the OP. :rolleyes: That issue was addressed, my suggestion was that ammo packs should include only ammo for light weapons not for rocket launchers and other heavy weapons. They should go to actual Resupply Terminals to get that kind of ammo.

raidyr

2012-06-09, 12:06 PM

Crazy idea: What if MAX suits carried the ammo?

MAX's would get infinite ammo which at the beginning sounds insane but consider how specialized they are it's not that bad. An infinite ammo burster MAX is just as effective against tanks and infantry as a limited ammo burster MAX. Their heavy suits would be able to hump a lot of bullets as well, and it would give them a teambased support role.

Non-crazy feedback: I'm okay with Light Assaults carrying the ammo.

shadow58

2012-06-09, 12:07 PM

Engineer's already have so much going for them, it should be HA or just leave it as LA.

Top Sgt

2012-06-09, 12:08 PM

Why would engineers carry ammo when they can already deploy a dispenser?

kinda what were saying

only engineers should have ammo if it's a constructable dispenser that's great.

Point is Light assaults will lone wolf as current state sittin on rooftops and inaccessable places for others with packs only for themselves etc.. Even devs agreed and that's why it's being taken away etc.

jet packs themselves are already enough of a kit specialty for the Light assaults

SUBARU

2012-06-09, 12:13 PM

I guess this poll has turned into.What class am i going to play and want more ammo for myself poll.

The poll should have been. What class do you think would supply the other classes

SoNaR

2012-06-09, 12:13 PM

Dagron

2012-06-09, 12:15 PM

only engineers should have ammo if it's a constructable dispenser that's great.
The dispenser is a good idea, but since it's fixed, it would force people who need a resuply to run back to the engi's nest... i feel one person could keep making that run for the whole team instead.

Point is Light assaults will lone wolf as current state sittin on rooftops and inaccessable places for others with packs only for themselves etc.. Even devs agreed and that's why it's being taken away etc.
Like i said, let them. If they want to stay on top of a tower and be sniper bait or to get blown by aircrafts while denying their teammates a resuply, their side should lose... coordination = good (reward that), mindless lonewolfs in a zerg = bad (penalize it).

jet packs themselves are already enough of a kit specialty for the Light assaults

I hate this argument. Yay, i get to jump around like a pixie and do nothing else, while everyone has multiple role choices. Seriously lame having LAs stay in only one role just because "jetpacks are cool". They're not even jetpacks, they're jump packs... it's not as uber as our first instinct tells us it's supposed to be.

Baneblade

2012-06-09, 12:15 PM

I don't think it should be class based to be honest. I think it should be squad based. Your SL calls in an ammo drop on his location with a reasonable timer.

Gandhi

2012-06-09, 12:21 PM

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 12:21 PM

I voted HA but I wouldn't mind seeing the engineer with ammo, might be better that way because the HA already have so many bullets/rockets and giving them ammo could just lead to rocket spam...

Also without the ammo, how useful will a LA be in terms of team play? I was wondering if it might be a good idea to combine the medic and LA class if the ammo was moved to another class, that might give them more incentive to stick with their squad mates instead of just lone wolfing it.

HA shouldn't be able to carry Heavy ammo for rocket launcher and similar heavy weapons only for AI rifles and pistols for all classes. Please guys read before sharing, and don't repeat the issue already addressed. Anyway suggestion for HA being the Ammo carrier also implies their consumption/carry ratio for ammo is the least favorable (what means they are most prone to running out of ammo).

LA should scout for others. Being able to jumping on tower to get an overview of the situation and inform other infantry guys what's coming should be their most valuable team play role.

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 12:30 PM

I think it should be a support class. What's the point if offensive classes can carry more ammo for themselves? Why not just give them a bigger ammo pool then? Who are they carrying the extra ammo for, medics?

No. Support is the only class that makes sense. Medics, engineers or both.

That seems just pushing them too much into support role imo. They are combat medics and combat engineers after all. I will most probably play medic and won't be happy if I'll have to worry about supplying everyone with ammo besides healing them as well. I won't have any chance to fight that way.

Why not give HAs bigger ammo pool? Simple - not to make them OP, also their Ammo packs should be meant for others in need as well as for them. MAXes should have huge ammo pool on the other side.

Engies are a good choice too however it seems that they will have enough to do (repairing MAXes, vehicles, turrets, setting up mines, turrets, covers and other deployable structure on the field) and adding Ammo supply role on top of that would be overwhelming imo. It would be not good imo to push them completely into support roles only.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 12:31 PM

No. Support is the only class that makes sense. Medics, engineers or both.

I don't see medics carrying ammo for no other reason then because it makes no sense, they're medics: they only carry a weapon because it's a war, they're soldiers but their main goal is to keep people alive.
Engis make sense, but they're kind of stationary. They help push the line once in a while, but they won't be there most of the time.

HA shouldn't be able to carry Heavy ammo for rocket launcher and similar heavy weapons only for AI rifles and pistols for all classes. Please guys read before sharing, and don't repeat the issue already addressed. Anyway suggestion for HA being the Ammo carrier also implies their consumption/carry ratio for ammo is the least favorable (what means they are most prone to running out of ammo).

I think it should be a support class. What's the point if offensive classes can carry more ammo for themselves? Why not just give them a bigger ammo pool then? Who are they carrying the extra ammo for, medics?

My point exactly.

LA should scout for others. Being able to jumping on tower to get an overview of the situation and inform other infantry guys what's coming should be their most valuable team play role.

Yes, but so far that's their only main role. What if we gave them the option to be a support class also? You know, giving them the option to be a back of the line defender/supply runner?

Vetto

2012-06-09, 12:33 PM

Gandhi

2012-06-09, 12:37 PM

That seems just pushing them too much into support role imo. They are combat medics and combat engineers after all. I will most probably play medic and won't be happy if I'll have to worry about supplying everyone with ammo besides healing them as well. I won't have any chance to fight that way.
You don't have to worry about it. If someone around you yells "I need ammo!" you hit your "drop ammo" key and you're done.
their Ammo packs should be meant for others in need as well as for them
Right, but lets be realistic here. Most people will hoard that extra ammo for themselves, you saw it happen all the time in the E3 streams. They chew through their own ammo pools with reckless abandon because they know they can just drop more when they run out. Especially if they know all the other HA/LA guys are carrying extra ammo too. Moving that ability to a support class just makes more sense all around.

I don't see medics carrying ammo for no other reason then because it makes no sense, they're medics: they only carry a weapon because it's a war, they're soldiers but they're not warriors.
It doesn't make as much sense as the engineer I agree, but the advantage of giving it to the medic is that he's usually with the HA and LA guys, while the engineer might tend to hold back as you said. And like Immigrant said, he's a combat medic ;)

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 12:41 PM

I must agree with the heavy assault, Engineer already Repair people, Medic Heal, And the LA jetpack mentality isn't one for the Ammo pack.

But HA is prefect, they will end up burning threw the most ammo, as well as be working with more teams as the front or rear guard thus able to get more ammo to people.

Problem with HA is that the ones that need ammo the most shouldn't be the ones supplying it. That just encourages selfish gameplay.

Vetto

2012-06-09, 12:44 PM

Problem with HA is that the ones that need ammo the most shouldn't be the ones supplying it. That just encourages selfish gameplay.

Perhaps, but at the same point, they can't heal them selves, they can't repair them selves, and they can't revive them selves, It's giving them a roll in a squad to fill, and if they want to be effective they will want to work with other members, I mean to be fair there not even the metal shield or heavy hitter of the group that the MAX.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 12:48 PM

They already have different roles: AA, AI or AV. Those are already different playstyles.
You want to give them gimmicks, not new roles.

Vetto

2012-06-09, 12:53 PM

They already have different roles: AA, AI or AV. Those are already different playstyles.
You want to give them gimmicks, not new roles.

All 3 of those can as I said be done as a MAX, who can take more of a hit, and lay down more damage, The HA has 2 things going for it.

1. Maneuverability.
2. Personal Shield.

As they stand now they have NO squad roll and are even more of a loner as it stands, There just a fill in for what your max can not do, or for when there is no max around.

So what you call "gimmick" I call Squad roll.

The engineer already has enough to do.

It sets up Turrets, Repairs Inf and Vech alike, set up mines, and the list goes on and on, he has enough on his plate and adding people moaning for ammo to him on top of it just seems like a bit much.

The only other one I could see is the medic, and it just doesn't come off right that a medic is handing out ammo.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 12:55 PM

True, the MAX takes their role, but those cost resources while HAs don't.
And i agree engis already have enough... i'm an advocate of the LAs rights. :p

Saintlycow

2012-06-09, 12:57 PM

Dont give it to the HA. He can just find a secluded spot, and use his infinite ammunition to kill tanks, people and jets.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 12:58 PM

This is why a MAX needs to be less mobile than we saw in those E3 streams. You are right. They basically moved around like a beefy HA and that needs to change. In PS1 that's how it worked. MAX had heavy hitting power but he was cumbersome, HA had less hitting power but he was more agile.

Yeah, that too. :p

Dont give it to the HA. He can just find a secluded spot, and use his infinite ammunition to kill tanks, people and jets.

Nah, they'll be spoted easily with rocket trails/bullet tracers. I still don't want HAs to have it, but for other reasons.

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 12:58 PM

You don't have to worry about it. If someone around you yells "I need ammo!" you hit your "drop ammo" key and you're done.

And if I drop med pack on accident (which goes to toilet that way) and that will happen too often if you have multiples support roles in one class. Also you will have to bring ammo to guys in need if they are pinned down and I just don't see a medic doing this or being suitable for that role.

Right, but lets be realistic here. Most people will hoard that extra ammo for themselves, you saw it happen all the time in the E3 streams. They chew through their own ammo pools with reckless abandon because they know they can just drop more when they run out. Especially if they know all the other HA/LA guys are carrying extra ammo too. Moving that ability to a support class just makes more sense all around.

Hogging ammo will happen in any case but that not the matter of class and depends on individual players tbh. Hoarders will always hoard so that really not an argument and it's best thing (least damaging) imo to give the Ammo packs to the class that will need it the most and I believe that will be HA.

However the hoarding tactic should generally be less successful in any case since two guns are always better than one in any given moment. Your chances to defeat enemy forces and get to next resupply terminal will be greater if you share your ammo with guys who have run out of it.

HA would be more willing to exchange with other HAs when they needed to maximize their efficiency and reciprocate, they would need medics for healing them up and reviving them so they would need to share with them too, they would need engineers to set-up covers/turrets for them and repair their vehicles, also they would need LAs to scout for them so they are the class that should actually be least prone to hogging the ammo. HAs won't be able to hide somewhere high and drop ammo pack to resupply in safety so even if they don't intend to share ammo packs they drop will be more accessible to everyone else when compared to LAs. Also LAs will be able to buzz like the bees around HAs (as well as other faster classes) waiting for them to drop Ammo packs and they should do it the most often while I really can't see HA trailing the LA or any other class to pick up a part his ammo drop.

Dont give it to the HA. He can just find a secluded spot, and use his infinite ammunition to kill tanks, people and jets.

Another ***** unable and/or impolite enough to read an OP prior to posting, please both reading and manners are taught in elementary school so do it before posting nonsense and making yourself look ridiculous next time. Sorry but that really ticks me off and it happens a lot here.

Gandhi

2012-06-09, 12:59 PM

True, the MAX takes their role, but those cost resources, while HAs don't.
They also have a cooldown, can't drive vehicles, have no vertical movement at all and don't have a recharging shield, making any damage they take permanent.

And like WildVS said, they need to be less agile than they are now. I think it's also a bit daft that you can squad spawn as a MAX, but oh well. Point is instead of trying to give HA more gimmicks that it has no business having why don't we focus on making the MAX less like the HA's role?

Vetto

2012-06-09, 01:00 PM

True, the MAX takes their role, but those cost resources while HAs don't.
And i agree engis already have enough... i'm an advocate of the LAs rights. :p

I disagree on LA, LA are scouts, and ambushers the Max mortal enemy, and when a squad REALLY needs ammo they don't need some one who will fly off, also in many times during the E3 demo I never saw many LA giving ammo to other, just flying to the top of a building dropping ammo then ambushing.

If anything there Worse then giving the HA the ammo pack, as for the max thing your right they will be costly, but again in a game this big there will ALL way be a max around to fill a roll that needed.

This is why a MAX needs to be less mobile than we saw in those E3 streams. You are right. They basically moved around like a beefy HA and that needs to change. In PS1 that's how it worked. MAX had heavy hitting power but he was cumbersome, HA had less hitting power but he was more agile.

I agree some what, it needs to be toned down but not as bad as PS1 as A lot of max stopped being used cause they were just to easy to ambush they need to find a middle between ps1 and ps2 E3 demo.

Haro

2012-06-09, 01:02 PM

I still think it should be Light Assault for several reasons:
1. Every class (with the exception of maxes) is designed for a dual role: A combat role and a support role. For engineers and medics, it's obvious, Heavy Assault is also AV, Infiltrator is also sniper, and light assault is also resupply.

2. I could replicate the same "camp on a roof" strategy with just about any class besides the Light Assault. Maybe not as easily, but I believe it would be even more imbalanced if a class like heavy assault or engineers had it. Now, this is just a guess, but I believe that the medic and engineer classes have longer range weapons than Light Assault (I know Heavy Assault has it) and the Light Assault looks to have a sub-machine gun or a carbine. Of all the classes, they have the least offensive capability from range, and nearly the lowest armor.

3. I think the concerns are over blown. Ammo mechanics aren't fully in place, and I've pointed out in other threads that there are many ways to easily balance this. On top of that, I know I saw in the live stream that ammo packs only refill a few clips at a time. On top of that, it's not like roofs are that safe. Snipers, AI maxes, and aircraft are hard counters to the Light Assault and can easily take care of them on many roof tops. On top of that, flanking from enemy light assaults is also very common, and I saw very few people last long on those roofs.

Light Assault can do many things, but I really don't think camping is one of them. Only Beta will really tell for sure.

SUBARU

2012-06-09, 01:02 PM

And I drop med pack on accident (which goes to toilet that way) and that will happen quite often if you have multiples support roles in one class. Also you will have to bring ammo to guys in need if they are pinned down and I just don't see a medic doing this or being suitable for that role.

Hogging ammo will happen in any case but that not the matter of class and depends on individual players tbh. Hoarders will always hoard so that really not an argument and it's best thing (least damaging) imo to give the Ammo packs to the class that will need it the most and I believe that will be HA.

However the hoarding tactic should generally be less successful in any case since two guns are always better than one in any given moment. Your chances to defeat enemy forces and get to next resupply terminal will be greater if you share your ammo with guys who have run out of it.

HA would be more willing to exchange with other HAs when they needed to maximize their efficiency and reciprocate, they would need medics for healing them up and reviving them so they would need to share with them too, they would need engineers to set-up covers/turrets for them and repair their vehicles, also they would need LAs to scout for them so they are the class that should actually be least prone to hogging the ammo. HAs won't be able to hide somewhere high and drop ammo pack to resupply in safety so even if they don't intend to share ammo packs they drop will be most accessible to everyone else.

Yes ,but a person that play's a classic support class will be more willing to support others and not just himself

Dagron

2012-06-09, 01:02 PM

imo to give the Ammo packs to the class that will need it the most and I believe that will be HA.

Why do you refuse to listen to other people's arguments?

What's the point of ammo drop if the one dropping it will use it every time? Just make their ammo reserves bigger and end ammo packs in that case.

Vetto

2012-06-09, 01:05 PM

Yeap I agree. Need to find that sweetspot. Beta right? :lol:

Exactly, got to remember Max got to worry about LA jet packs now, so there going to need a bit more turn-ability if anything else, And while yes the VS Max had jet packs back in the day they suffered as well from the hard turning all MAX do, the LA on the other hand will not.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 01:06 PM

I still think it should be Light Assault for several reasons:
1. Every class (with the exception of maxes) is designed for a dual role: A combat role and a support role. For engineers and medics, it's obvious, Heavy Assault is also AV, Infiltrator is also sniper, and light assault is also resupply.

^This.
I feel people are too dazled with "zomg jetpacks, nerf everything else!!" to realize just jump packs don't make a class.
As a LA i'd like the option to be a support class alternatively to being a harassing scout.

2. I could replicate the same "camp on a roof" strategy with just about any class besides the Light Assault. Maybe not as easily, but I believe it would be even more imbalanced if a class like heavy assault or engineers had it. Now, this is just a guess, but I believe that the medic and engineer classes have longer range weapons than Light Assault (I know Heavy Assault has it) and the Light Assault looks to have a sub-machine gun or a carbine. Of all the classes, they have the least offensive capability from range, and nearly the lowest armor.

Camping on this game doesn't seem very viable to me. If they get on a roof, snipers/aircrafts will spot them sooner rather than later. I've already seen this discussion about the infiltrators: being able to get on a roof is not game breaking like in other games (e.g. BF3).

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 01:19 PM

Why do you refuse to listen to other people's arguments?

I listen , however I'm not really convinced. Answer this from which class will it be most easiest to pick the Ammo drop if the guy playing it is not bothering to share? Answer is...... (please be honest here)

HEAVY ASSAULT, why - they will be on front line the most since that's where the action will be and it makes no sense for HA being in the rear, they will be running out of ammo the most (this is my presumption however I believe it will be true due to role of HAs) and thus dropping the ammo packs most frequently, they will be in least secluded places then the most (on the front lines), they will be easiest to find (on the front lines again) and they are easiest to catch up with since they are the slowest infantry class.

If somebody wants to hog the Ammo he will find a way to do it but HA will be least successful in try to do so.

Is something said here incorrect?

kaffis

2012-06-09, 01:22 PM

Camping on this game doesn't seem very viable to me. If they get on a roof, snipers/aircrafts will spot them sooner rather than later. I've already seen this discussion about the infiltrators: being able to get on a roof is not game breaking like in other games (e.g. BF3).
Not to mention, as soon as they get spotted on the roof, anybody with a legitimate rifle will out-accuracy/range their carbines and kill them with ease. Roof-shooting is a flanking hit-and-fade tactic for LA, not a dedicated camping position.

At least, it will be once people play for a week and learn to look up once in a while.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 01:24 PM

I listen , however I'm not really convinced. Answer this from which class will it be most easiest to pick the Ammo drop it the guys playing it is not bothering to share? Answer is...... (please be honest here)

HEAVY ASSAULT, why - they will be on front line the most since that's where the action will be and it makes no sense for HA being in the rear, they will be running out of ammo the most and thus dropping the ammo packs most frequently, the will be in least secluded places then the most (on the front lines), they will be easiest to find (on the front lines again) and they are easiest to catch up with since they are the slowest infantry class.

You are also neglecting this: what do you do when the ammo drop is spent? You run back.
As a HA, it will take you longer than as a LA. Not to mention you would be leaving your post on the front lines, where as a support LA you'd be doing exactly what your role is supposed to.

Is something said here incorrect?

If somebody wants to hog the Ammo he will find a way to do it but HA will be least successful in try to do so.

This. Any class can hog the ammo with the same ease: ignoring your teammates' requests for ammo & drop + pick it up yourself is something anyone can do.

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 01:28 PM

Perhaps, but at the same point, they can't heal them selves, they can't repair them selves, and they can't revive them selves, It's giving them a roll in a squad to fill, and if they want to be effective they will want to work with other members, I mean to be fair there not even the metal shield or heavy hitter of the group that the MAX.

Their role is assault.

A MAX role is to dish out firepower and take firepower. They can equip 2 very specialized weapons depending upon what they are planning on attacking.

A Heavy Assault's role is a bit more versatile; they trade pure the pure firepower of a MAX for less firepower that's more adaptable to the circumstances. They're more mobile and better suited to rapid deployment by vehicle or aircraft.

I almost preferred the older MAX to the newer ones. I see the ability to equip a different weapon on each arm starting to infringe just a little bit upon the HA role (since PS1 MAX had very specific roles) but at least there's a trade-up the MAX has to make for that versatility.

In any case, HA has a specific role, and that's just being fairly capable of dealing with whatever happens to happen on the battlefield. They are versatile and good to have in combat environments where infantry, vehicles, and aircraft are all present in a battlezone.

That said, they have a weakness like every class does, and that's a tendency to go through ammunition quickly. They should have to rely upon another class to support that weakness.

Infiltrator
Role: Scout, Long or short range infantry combatant
Pros: Ability to avoid notice and strike infantry from long range or very short range
Cons: Low survivability if located

Light Assault
Role: Shock trooper, mid to short range combatant
Pros: Ability to ignore obstacles including many base defenses, rapidly engage/disengage in combat.
Cons: Low defenses

Combat Medic
Role: Medical support, anti-infantry
Pros: Ability to support teammates by healing / reviving soldiers. Good mid-range anti-infantry combatant.
Cons: Vulnerable when providing support

Engineer
Role: Repair / resupply support, area denial
Pros: Ability to support teammates by repairing and resupplying them. Able to deploy mines and turrets at chokepoints to counter vehicles and infantry.
Cons: Vulnerable when providing support

Heavy Assault
Role: Effective Anti-infantry, Anti-vehicular, Anti-aircraft soldier
Pros: Ability to combat a wide variety of different targets at medium to long ranges. Somewhat durable.
Cons: Reliant upon support classes

MAX
Role: Specialized weapons platform.
Pros: Good survivability. Can fit 2 weapons simultaneously that independently can be very effective versus infantry, vehicles, or aircraft.
Cons: Weak against targets that it is not equipped to combat. Limited ability to use vehicles, reliant upon infantry support.

Gandhi

2012-06-09, 01:29 PM

This. Any class can hog the ammo with the same ease: drop + pick it up is something anyone can do.
Yes, but an engineer or medic is going to have a lot less incentive to hoard ammo than an offensive class. They're already playing a support role, if they didn't want to support they'd have picked an offensive class instead.

I just don't understand what's so hard about this concept. Am I missing something obvious? Honest question.

NMnine

2012-06-09, 01:34 PM

Do I need to state the obvious here? Just give it to both Assault classes and double the cooldown. Bam.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 01:37 PM

Yes, but an engineer or medic is going to have a lot less incentive to hoard ammo than an offensive class. They're already playing a support role, if they didn't want to support they'd have picked an offensive class instead.

I just don't understand what's so hard about this concept. Am I missing something obvious? Honest question.

You seem to be missing the argument some people have already made over and over: engis already have a lot going on for them.

As for medic, i agree it'd be a good option. I just feel weird having a medic carry extra ammo around (i realize that's not an argument to exclude them as an option though). Doesn't it seem strange to anyone else?

However, i keep defending the LAs as ammo carriers because i feel they have what it takes (mobility) and they seem kind of limited role-wise and their role is pretty similar to the infiltrator's (pretty much guerrila hit'n run).
All i want is the alternative role to run around behind the lines resuplying while as an added funcion helping defend engis from infiltrators.

moosepoop

2012-06-09, 01:40 PM

ammo packs give engineers some use in infantry combat, especially indoors.

SUBARU

2012-06-09, 01:40 PM

You seem to be missing the argument some people have already made over and over: engis already have a lot going on for them.

As for medic, i agree it'd be a good option. I just feel weird having a medic carry extra ammo around (i realize that's not an argument to exclude them as an option though). Doesn't it seem strange to anyone else?

However, i keep defending the LAs as ammo carriers because i feel they have what it takes (mobility) and they seem kind of limited role-wise and their role is pretty similar to the infiltrator's (pretty much guerrila hit'n run).
All i want is the alternative role to run around behind the lines resuplying while as an added funcion helping defend engis from infiltrators.

Most of what an Engineer does happens before and after a fight ( in a base fight)

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 01:42 PM

You are also neglecting this: what do you do when the ammo drop is spent? You run back.
As a HA, it will take you longer than as a LA. Not to mention you would be leaving your post on the front lines, where as a support LA you'd be doing exactly what your role is supposed to.

This is actually a con for LAs since I think we don't want ammo absolutely being a non-issue when fighting (if that kind of level of coop could even be achieved). Also there will be supply terminals in bases as well as those set up by engies so HA wouldn't need to leave the front line they would need to share with other HAs until they reach a supply terminal. But really I honestly doubt that many LAs (if any) will be playing the errand boys for HAs as you described here, that's just way too unrealistic, they'll want to fight primarily too. Meanwhile if LA spend all his ammo he just needs to trail the nearest heavy until he drops. This kind of unintentional cooperation in ammo distribution is much more likely.

This. Any class can hog the ammo with the same ease: ignoring your teammates' requests for ammo & drop + pick it up yourself is something anyone can do.

Not quite true. LAs can hog the ammo for themselves only the easiest by far since no other class can follow them. Other classes are around the same ground however since HA is the slowest it will be the slightly harder for them.

GTGD

2012-06-09, 01:48 PM

Infiltrator makes absolutely no sense, and nobody has voted for it so no need to explain this.

MAXs are designed to be helpless in all aspects that don't involve merciless killing.

Medics are around to heal soldiers, giving them ammo resupply would make them a one-stop infantry support unit.

Heavy Assault is designed to be more mobile and versatile, but also squishier than MAX units. Their main role is to fight and destroy, like MAXs, but they can also capture things, gun vehicles, etc and won't have a timer. Giving them ammo is ridiculous, the entire point is that they are the best infantry class in combat terms but must rely on others to support them, whether that is healing or giving them more ammo (so they don't have 50 rockets each).

Engineer is a more defensive class to begin with, so they probably won't be right on the front lines. Add to that they exclusively repair vehicles and have many deployables, the engineer class might be pretty OP already. Why the hell would they need ANOTHER advantage in ammo resupply?

Light Assault is the only logical choice. Yes the jetpacks and mobility looks kind of overpowered for now. However that is adjustable. They have the lowest armor besides infiltrators, can't use any really big guns, can't heal or repair anything. They are good in aircraft because of the jump jets, good at flanking and fighting outside where mobility is key, can get around to give ammo fast. But the biggest thing is that they will be perfect vehicle operators. Driving/flying while resupplying your gunner will be wonderful, and then when you take damage your engineer gunner can hop out to repair while you replenish his ammo supply. When fighting on foot, they need to have some sort of role or else why would anyone ever bring a LA inside smaller areas?

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 01:50 PM

Most of what an Engineer does happens before and after a fight ( in a base fight)

^ This.

Before a fight, you're laying mines and deployables. During a fight you're repairing armor and... what? You're in the thick of MAX and HA that are going to need ammo. Where are the LA? Up on the walltop fighting with the defenders or skirmishing with other infantry by jumping all over the place.

Engineer is a more defensive class to begin with, so they probably won't be right on the front lines. Add to that they exclusively repair vehicles and have many deployables, the engineer class might be pretty OP already. Why the hell would they need ANOTHER advantage in ammo resupply?

Engineers tend to hang out around friendly MAX, HA, and vehicles to provide repair. Those units tend to be at the front lines AND need ammo.

This whole thing is a pretty moot point anyhow as Engineers already have a deployable supply terminal. Lets drop the concept of ammo boxes all together and use the supply terminal!

http://www.hamma.ws/ntemp/Infantry/Engineer/EnginACE.jpg

Dagron

2012-06-09, 01:51 PM

This is actually a con for LAs since I think we don't want ammo absolutely being a non-issue when fighting.

I don't think it would make it a non issue, it'd make it less of an issue... of course i could be wrong though.

Honestly I doubt that many LAs (if any) will be playing the errand boys for HAs as you described here, that's just way too unrealistic, they'll want to fight too.

I suppose so, if everyone is just zerging around. In an organized team however, someone should take the role of patroling behind the front lines for infiltrators, so why not have the guy who's already going to be running all over the place carry the extra ammo?

Meanwhile if LA spend all his ammo he just needs to trail the nearest heavy until he drops. This kind of unintentional cooperating in ammo distribution is much more likely.

Alright, i agree with that.

Not quite true. LAs can hog the ammo for themselves only the easiest by far since no other class can follow them. Other classes are around the same ground however since HA is the slowest it will be the slightly harder for them.

You think having someone nearby will make any difference whatsoever when dropping ammo for yourself?

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 01:55 PM

^This.

If you give Engys the job of ammo too, we'd be OP. Engys would just fly around in squads with CE and Ammo. Like lords of the sky, any spot we land we will be able to surround it with CE and farm for hella long time.

If you guys want to give me that gift, OK! :)

THEY ALREADY HAVE IT MAKING THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT TOTALLY STUPID.

I bring your attention to the Mobile Armament Supply Terminal.

http://www.hamma.ws/ntemp/Infantry/Engineer/EnginACE.jpg

Gandhi

2012-06-09, 01:55 PM

You seem to be missing the argument some people have already made over and over: engis already have a lot going on for them.

Well ok, I get that. But I also agree with Subaru, the engineer has nothing to support HA and LA guys with directly, apparently he's just there to repair MAXs and provide defensive deployables like turrets and shields. He's a combat engineer, and while defensive stuff is an important part of his role he should also be effective helping his team on the front lines with the assault classes.

Zhane

2012-06-09, 01:56 PM

Engineer gets my vote

Dagron

2012-06-09, 01:57 PM

[quote = "Most of what an Engineer does happens before and after a fight ( in a base fight)"]

^ This.

Before a fight, you're laying mines and deployables. During a fight you're repairing armor and... what? You're in the thick of MAX and HA that are going to need ammo. Where are the LA? Up on the walltop fighting with the defenders or skirmishing with other infantry by jumping all over the place.

I guess so... i really can't say much about that without knowing the mechanics of the class.
However I assume he's more active during the fight than you expect, re-building/moving and guarding their nest, dropping shields, etc... be it behind the offensive line or in front of the defensive line.

ThermalReaper

2012-06-09, 02:00 PM

As long as someone resupplies me, I don't care if it's the enemy. Changed my mind to engie, but I'm still not fully convinced until beta.

NMnine

2012-06-09, 02:04 PM

What does an engy do during a firefight? Nothing. Give them something to do by dropping ammo promotes the use of the role no?

How do you figure? They have the same gun selection as LA and Medic.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 02:06 PM

Divide his time? choose between deploying whatever that is and supplying the team with ammo? Makes for an interesting role if you ask me. OP, hell no. just make him think what is most important.

OOPs Misquote but you get what I mean.

Yes, that would make the role more interesting, but he already have an interesting role... I remember seeing a poll not too long ago where the class most voted as "what would you play" was the engi.
The LA though, while he's a front liner and have a super fun jump pack, seems to have only one role unlike most classes.

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 02:08 PM

Yes, that would make the role more interesting, but he already have an interesting role... I remember seeing a poll not too long ago where the class most voted as "what would you play" was the engi.
The LA though, while he's a front liner and have a super fun jump pack, seems to have only one role unlike most classes.

It's a useful role, so what's the problem?

Dagron

2012-06-09, 02:10 PM

It's a useful role, so what's the problem?

Diversity of roles... i'd like to have a "quick on their feet" support behind the lines.

Maybe because they didn't have engy so focused on support at the time? You give him responsibility of providing ammo and there will be much less pew pew. That poll might change.

So your argument is "do it so engis will be less interesting"? O.o

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 02:10 PM

You think having someone nearby will make any difference whatsoever when dropping ammo for yourself?

Actually this depends on how Ammo pack drops work and how much ammo they contain (for 1 person fully resupplying only or more), and now I'm not quite sure now that you mentioned it. :confused: Could someone find a Ammo drop scene in recent TB's game footage please?

If it works that everyone within a radius is resupplied with certain amount of ammo for a period of time that should work fine but if you pick everything up by simply walking over it then it actually wouldn't matter at all as you said. I (unintentionally) presumed the former and if it isn't so then many of the point in favor of HA being the supplier in my recent posts aren't true.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 02:13 PM

Actually this depends on how Ammo pack drops work, and now I'm not quite sure. :confused: Could someone find a Ammo drop scene in recent TB's game footage please?

If it works that everyone within a radius is resupplied with certain amount of ammo for a period of time that should work fine but if you pick everything up by simply walking over it then it actually wouldn't matter at all as you said. I (unintentionally) presumed the former and if it isn't so then many of the point in favor of HA being the supplier in my recent posts aren't true.

Mmm i presumed the later, because i mostly saw LAs drop and walk over it... but since they didn't look back, i can't be sure it just disappears. :p

Saintlycow

2012-06-09, 02:15 PM

Another ***** unable and/or impolite enough to read an OP prior to posting, please both reading and manners are taught in elementary school so do it before posting nonsense and making yourself look ridiculous next time. Sorry but that really ticks me off and it happens a lot here.

That was quite rude. Maybe YOU should learn some manners.

Although i'll admit that I scanned the OP

Neurotoxin

2012-06-09, 02:21 PM

Ammo station could be an ACE variant.

Maybe the Flash could serve as an ammo depot on wheels.

Maybe everyone can select "Nanite Ammo Constructor" as an optional item, like grenades and medkits, so everyone can reload but it costs a lil Auraxium or alloy.

Maybe a Utility MAX has resupply properties.

Maybe Infils, or even just Squad Leaders, can use a command tool to acquisition ammo and have ships in orbit send it down with a drop pod.

Maybe drop pods come loaded with extra ammo, that lingers on the battlefield.

Personally I like Light Assault having it. LA otherwise would be just a jetpack. Mobility is nice, but I feel like the rapid response to resupply others means LA can provide quick response time for both combat and support.

Baneblade

2012-06-09, 02:26 PM

I don't see why the Engineer shouldn't be doing it, they of all the classes, have the least to do in an actual fight. They aren't healing anyone, they only have a rifle, and most of their fun stuff are general use deployables that they aren't necessarily using directly. I see no reason they can't also have an unlocked or even default ability to deploy an ammo station... sort of like the Aegis Shield of PS1... without the bubble.

NMnine

2012-06-09, 02:29 PM

Actually this depends on how Ammo pack drops work and how much ammo they contain (for 1 person fully resupplying only or more), and now I'm not quite sure now that you mentioned it. :confused: Could someone find a Ammo drop scene in recent TB's game footage please?

If it works that everyone within a radius is resupplied with certain amount of ammo for a period of time that should work fine but if you pick everything up by simply walking over it then it actually wouldn't matter at all as you said. I (unintentionally) presumed the former and if it isn't so then many of the point in favor of HA being the supplier in my recent posts aren't true.

Look here Planetside 2 E3 Stream - Day 3 - (feat. Totalbiscuit and Margaret Krohn) - YouTube at 1:37:30

The ammo pack just lies there slowly ticking his ammo up. Not instant.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 02:33 PM

Look here Planetside 2 E3 Stream - Day 3 - (feat. Totalbiscuit and Margaret Krohn) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xcmHYuUbn0) at 1:37:30

The ammo pack just lies there slowly ticking his ammo up. Not instant.

Mmm interesting, i'll have to give it more thought then.

Visperas

2012-06-09, 02:34 PM

I believe this is a matter of balance more than lore or in which class fits better. I'd choose LA because, besides the jumpjets, they have nothing else and thus, fewer gameplay options. HA already have a rifle and AV weapon plus the shield. Any class with resuply is going to hoard ammo but that's up to each player. If an LA wants to be a supply runner he can do it. If you take that away, they can only be weak but fast scouts. I think LA is the option to go even if SOE has stated they are thinking about it.

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 02:40 PM

Ammo station could be an ACE variant.

Isn't that what the Mobile Armament Supply Terminal is?

From your own thread: http://www.hamma.ws/ntemp/Infantry/Engineer/EnginACE.jpg

Dagron

2012-06-09, 02:40 PM

I believe this is a matter of balance more than lore or in which class fits better. I'd choose LA because, besides the jumpjets, they have nothing else and thus, fewer gameplay options.

...

Any class with resuply is going to hoard ammo but that's up to each player. If an LA wants to be a supply runner he can do it. If you take that away, they can only be weak but fast scouts. I think LA is the option to go even if SOE has stated they are thinking about it.

I would like something given back to LA. Taking their ammo job and give it to another class is a nerf of LA. It should be an exchange, replacing one job with another. Maybe give LAs C4. LAs would be very effective planting boomers.

I think LAs already have C4, but i still feel it needs something more. It seems such a simple class to me... as i said numerous times, leet jump packs don't make them as uber cool as everyone seems to think.

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 02:40 PM

LA got no C4?

They get C4 grenades...

http://www.hamma.ws/ntemp/Infantry/LightAssault/LightExplosives.jpg

Hypevosa

2012-06-09, 02:41 PM

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 02:42 PM

That was quite rude. Maybe YOU should learn some manners.

Although i'll admit that I scanned the OP

Yeah I know, I'm aware of my shortcomings :D (intolerance to lack of respect and attention is one of them). That's why I apologized in advance and I will do it again. I'm sorry. :tear:

In my defense though I'm quite aware it not good enough: You were the third guy mentioning the same "problem" in a very "vocal" manner which was already covered in OP prior to any of you posting it, and was I sick of having to explain to every single one of you guys personally and all because none of you bothered to read OP (or as we hear so often "I scanned/skimmed it" excuse) yet all of you want to participate in discussion. It's the minimum sign of respect to look the OP for things you want to comment on.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 02:44 PM

LA because when ammo needs to get somewhere, it needs to get somewhere 5 minutes ago usually - you want ammo associated with a COMMON and FAST MOVING class so that ammo can actually get to where it needs to be. LA is that class.

It's also better since LA characters, by nature, have light arms rather than heavy arms. Every other class seems to have some kind of power weapon that giving them the ability to ammo spawn would leave broken.

^This.

However, in case there's really no way to keep ammo drop with the LA, i guess engis could be a good choice to have it. Though only if it's a loadout choice between deploying a dispenser or droping ammo. :p

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 02:45 PM

Look here Planetside 2 E3 Stream - Day 3 - (feat. Totalbiscuit and Margaret Krohn) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xcmHYuUbn0) at 1:37:30

The ammo pack just lies there slowly ticking his ammo up. Not instant.

Many thanks m8 for finding this, I thought it was that way, then my previous points are not invalid after all.

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 02:49 PM

Only thing I have as reference is Higby using LA. He must be providing some insight into it's playability with this decision to move ammo drops to another class. I remember him saying how easy it easy it was to kite a max down and we all thought LA couldn't do it. We just have to trust in them to do the right thing minus our presence in game for the moment.

LA shouldn't be (by definition) a heavy determination on the battlefield. We'll see what happens but for now I support engy getting that ability.

Light assault should be a harassment skill. Not much more IMO. But to kill a MAX. well they must see something we don't.

Maybe Higby just has mad skillz. :D

Rexdezi

2012-06-09, 02:50 PM

I think with the Engineer having the Resupply point... I'd be in favour of getting rid of ammo drops altogether... maybe running over the dead body of someone with the same weapon as you could resupply, but a MAX couldn't run over the body of an Infiltrator to get ammo

Dagron

2012-06-09, 02:51 PM

I remember him saying how easy it easy it was to kite a max down and we all thought LA couldn't do it.
...
LA shouldn't be (by definition) a heavy determination on the battlefield.

Being good at what they do doesn't make it ok to only do one thing... If they're too good at kiting MAXes, maybe giving them another role would divide the number of players into those roles. That would mean less of them kiting MAXes and so making their over the top heavy determination on the battlefield less of an issue. :p

Saintlycow

2012-06-09, 02:51 PM

Yeah I know, I'm aware of my shortcomings :D (intolerance to lack of respect and attention is one of them). That's why I apologized in advance and I will do it again. I'm sorry. :tear:

In my defense though I'm quite aware it not good enough: You were the third guy mentioning the same "problem" in a very "vocal" manner which was already covered in OP prior to any of you posting it, and was I sick of having to explain to every single one of you guys personally and all because none of you bothered to read OP (or as we hear so often "I scanned/skimmed it" excuse) yet all of you want to participate in discussion. It's the minimum sign of respect to look the OP for things you want to comment on.

Yeah your right. Sorry for getting my figurative panties in a bunch :lol:

After actually reading the OP ( which actually makes sense ), I do agree with your idea.

Although I am now going to make a different suggestion. How about having two different types of ammo boxes? One that could be used for heavier ammo, Like MAX ammo and rockets, which you give to the light assault. This way all he can really end up doing is throwing useless boxes to himself.

On the contrary, give a light ammo box to the HA. He can only resupply bullets. No infinite rockets unless he works with the LA

atone

2012-06-09, 02:52 PM

Dagron

2012-06-09, 02:59 PM

what bothers me about giving ammo to the LA is that it seems counter productive to its normal function. LA's job is to be forward, flanking, hit and run, take advantage of weakness in an enemy defense quickly then bug out. his focus is going to be that. Do you really want to keep calling him back for more ammo? Its just illogical to give that guy all the ammo.

How about giving him the option to drop ammo or drop C4? It would give them a choice to either be in the front line or behind it as support. That's what i've been saying all along.

Also being a free to play there are going to be a lot of randoms just out for themselves. i foresee a lot of ammo crates on ledges and rooftops, and that just sounds really annoying.

Also something i said before: if one side is full of selfish zerglins who don't share ammo and stay on roof tops getting bombed by aircrafts and bitchslaped by snipers, their team should lose (that's punishing bad behaviour).

If on the other hand a squad has a designated man behind the lines on defense/resuply duty, they should get enough ammo and security to stay on top (that's rewarding team play, which is what PS2 is all about i think).

If you make him trade off his jet-pack for an ammo crate you change his role. that becomes the units sole purpose cause he has nothing else, that is going to far i think.

Trading the jump pack for the ammo is not just a bad idea... it's insane! It would remove the whole purpose why it was a good idea for him to have the ammo in the first place.

That's why I am for giving the ammo to the HA. its more inline with its class role. they are the backbone of a major assault. giving them the ammo benefits the whole team. whether that was the intention or not. team play!

Again: giving the ammo to whoever is going to really need it defeats the ability's purpose. Just increase their ammo reserves instead and end what could be an interesting utility skill, that'd be the same thing.

MAX units although heavily armored perform more like a battering ram. giving them more ammunition is OP.
Engineers already do have access to a lot (and i suspect, and hope that there is more to come).
Giving it to the medics just seems odd. i don't know why really.
And infiltrator well nuff sed bout that...

I don't like the idea of MAXes carrying the squishie's ammo (you're already pretty much a light vehicle with monster firepower), i'm starting to think engis would actually be an ok alternative to LAs carrying ammo (see my previous posts), i agree with the medic part (although thinking it's weird is not a very strong argument) and infiltrators... yeah, nuff said.

PS: sry for the constant edits, i'm a little compulsive. :p

Hypevosa

2012-06-09, 03:11 PM

Resolve

2012-06-09, 03:14 PM

How about giving him the option to drop ammo or drop C4? It would give them a choice to either be in the front line or behind it as support. That's what i've been saying all along.

This is a good thing. Give us the option.

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 03:16 PM

Yeah your right. Sorry for getting my figurative panties in a bunch :lol:

No prob, we're good now. :)

Although I am now going to make a different suggestion. How about having two different types of ammo boxes? One that could be used for heavier ammo, Like MAX ammo and rockets, which you give to the light assault. This way all he can really end up doing is throwing useless boxes to himself.

On the contrary, give a light ammo box to the HA. He can only resupply bullets. No infinite rockets unless he works with the LA

Sounds like a good way to force coop and class interdependence, however I fear this is where it main flaw lies since could disrupt game play too much if many player choose disregard these rules and choose to solo. On the other side even if HA decides to solo he would still unintentionally most efficiently provide ammo for other too as I explained before (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=722505&postcount=78.).

I believe that those Supply Terminals Engies will be able to deploy will fulfill the role of resupplying the ammo for all which means heavy weapons too what should be enough. This would still leave much of HAs functionality dependent on work of Engies (provided that HA heavy weapons ammo pool is quite limited, i.e. 2-5 AA rocket per launcher).

Dagron

2012-06-09, 03:20 PM

How about having two different types of ammo boxes? One that could be used for heavier ammo, Like MAX ammo and rockets, which you give to the light assault. This way all he can really end up doing is throwing useless boxes to himself.

On the contrary, give a light ammo box to the HA. He can only resupply bullets. No infinite rockets unless he works with the LA

Sounds like a good way to force coop and class interdependence, however I fear this is where it main flaw lies since could disrupt game play too much if many player choose disregard these rules and choose to solo.

I too like this suggestion and not only for the merits you pointed out... i love it in part because i also like punishing the side with the most players who disregard team play (see my previous posts).

atone

2012-06-09, 03:24 PM

So far C4 has been accessible to most/all classes with resource cost(i think). I think changing that would affect a bunch of other systems.

You can't make everyone play the way you think they should. there are going to be those players that don't care to play well with others, and they will die more for it but your also penalizing everyone who may actually be trying but just happen to be in their squad or just in the area. and again it can be easily fixed. if an random HA needs more ammo he can just drop it. and because of way his class is designed that ammo will be accessible to everyone. The only draw back i see with it is that it enables him to rocket spam more easily. Could be that resuppling rockets "burn" the ammo crate quicker.

Edit: screwed up something.

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 03:26 PM

Fellas

Ever heard of paralysis by analysis?

Yup, however I really have nothing better to do. Germany still hasn't scored and isn't trying hard so the match is getting pretty boring. This debate serves nothing more then to keep ourselves entertained tbh ;) There's nothing wrong with that.

Devs have probably already or will consider all the things we mentioned here and much more. So I trust they will make the best decision and we be able to witness that when the beta starts.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 03:27 PM

True, we have been going in circles for a while, but it is kind of entertaining... xD

BigBossMonkey

2012-06-09, 03:28 PM

Ammo should only be available in field from a few sources:

Certain bases/outposts should have ammo dispensing stations outside, available to those who own the facility. These stations would only refill ammo and have a limited amount available, which would decrease as its being used. Show it as some sort of light, or bar, or whatever. These should be able to be hacked by attacking forces to rearm and deprive the defenders of it. These could be refilled by engineers reparing it.

Classes that provide ammo should be reduced to ONLY the Engineer (and perhaps MAX, I will explain shortly). The problem with ammo boxes as they are right now, there is no way to stop a force from rearming, which takes out valid tactics for the other teams. To bypass this I suggest having Engineers place down a portable short duration supply terminal (would have 30-50 uses). This could be used to customize your current class, and resupply. You can not use it to get more grenades or other consumables that cost resources (allowing a force to stay somewhere indefinitely), just ammo and change out weapons.

The goal of these two ideas would be to allow for players to be able to deprive the enemy of resupply if used incorrectly.

As for the idea with MAXes, it would be one of their special abilities and allow a MAX to open up slots on his armor and allow nearby friendlies to grab additional ammo from him. This ammo supply would require an engineer to regenerate over time (blah blah blah, nanites). The MAX himself would not be able to get ammo from it, that way a single MAX wouldnt' effectively have double or triple his normal ammo supply. While in ADM (ammo dispenser mode) the MAX would move 30% slower.

My two cents on the matter.

atone

2012-06-09, 03:36 PM

It's better than him having to always keep running back to get ammo for just himself?

Think of it this way - he can play delivery boy and forward assault for anyone on the front lines and keep his own rather pissy guns constantly stocked, rather than having to be STATIONARY as he waits for someone to spawn ammo so he can get it, run out, waste it, and come back for more.

This is the only class that makes alot of sense to have the ammo dispensing, because it's the one whose gameplay allows them to not always be hovering around their own squad. As the unit that serves best when it abuses its mobility, it is the one that needs ammo and is also the best ammo dispenser.

Yeah, he needs to wait for an ammo drop but with either method somebody is going to have to wait. With HA method, the LA has the freedom to choose when to resupply, not be "forced" to relocate.
guess its more of pros vs cons. Yes he's gonna need ammo eventually, we all do. but HA supplying it just benefits more people.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 03:38 PM

So far C4 has been accessible to most/all classes

Sry, i wasn't aware of that... then i guess that suggestion in specific is no good, but i think giving LAs a choice between front line harassment or behind the line support is still a good option, we just need to find something for them to have to choose between that or ammo drop (not the jump pack!).

Yeah, he needs to wait for an ammo drop but with either method somebody is going to have to wait. With HA method, the LA has the freedom to choose when to resupply, not be "forced" to relocate.
guess its more of pros vs cons. Yes he's gonna need ammo eventually, we all do. but HA supplying it just benefits more people.

To me HA is still the worst choice, having them resupply themselves is really making ammo drops moot... it's like having infinite ammo (or just a larger reserve).

atone

2012-06-09, 03:39 PM

Only wish there was a hurricane passing by while I was outside taking a piss. It would befitting of this thread.

hey, I'm entertained ;)

Sifer2

2012-06-09, 03:48 PM

Poll is missing the everyone option lol. It should be something you can choose to carry instead of grenades,medkits, etc.

atone

2012-06-09, 03:48 PM

To me HA is still the worst choice, having them resupply themselves is really making ammo drops moot... it's like having infinite ammo (or just a larger reserve).

other than it also benefits everyone around them, i can see your point.

Rexdezi

2012-06-09, 03:51 PM

To me HA is still the worst choice, having them resupply themselves is really making ammo drops moot... it's like having infinite ammo (or just a larger reserve).

not if you make the ammo drops like grenades... you have to pay resources for them and you can only take either 1 or 2 with you.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 03:52 PM

Poll is missing the everyone option lol. It should be something you can choose to carry instead of grenades,medkits, etc.

Mmm, that's intriguing... Making it an option between that or grenade will make not many people pick ammo, so it would get chosen mostly by those of us who want to stay in some type of support role.
Sounds like a reasonable compromise.

other than it also benefits everyone around them, i can see your point.

Yeah, but everyone around them will be mostly other HAs, so it's even worse.

not if you make the ammo drops like grenades... you have to pay resources for them and you can only take either 1 or 2 with you.

In that case it would be the same as just a larger ammo reserve.
(It's there in my post, i just didn't think about making it cost anything, but that doesn't change the point.)

atone

2012-06-09, 03:57 PM

:rolleyes:did i miss the point where a dev chimes in and laughs at us cause they been through all this before?

Dagron

2012-06-09, 03:58 PM

:rolleyes:did i miss the point where a dev chimes in and laughs at us cause they been through all this before?

:lol: I bet they're just lurking and loling, no reason to stop us from entertaining them. :lol:

atone

2012-06-09, 04:01 PM

:lol: I bet they're just lurking and loling, no reason to stop us from entertaining them. :lol:

:p Ok, what about a leadership cert that drops an ammo crate FROM ORBIT son!

Grognard

2012-06-09, 04:36 PM

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 04:38 PM

Personally, when it comes to ammo, a large segment of the population will be... how shall I say... selfish.

In order to "cause" (ie force) the concept ammo dispensing to be anything but a subject of contention, it should be on a class that has, generally, less a reliance on ammo as its class' theme. It should go to a class, that ussually attracts a type of player, or someone in the mindframe to... be a support class. This way, the ammo will actually be "supplied", instead of greedily keep to themselves.

This leaves out:
MAX - class focus is ammo dependant.
HA - class focus is ammo dependant.
LA - class focus is ammo dependant.

So, candidates are:
INF - class focus is arguably non-ammo dependant, but the focus is often tactically lonewolf, so not a good choice.
MED - class focus is non-ammo dependant, but obviously as healers, they are already a huge target for focus fire. Giving them ammo resupply capability seems over the top, not to mention antithetical. Again, not a good choice.

This leaves my pick: Engineer.

1. Class focus is non-ammo dependant.
2. Support minded players are attracted to this class.
3. Resupply, and repair are not antithetical, rather complimentary.
4. They repair more than just vehicles, so should be interfaced with infantry also.
5. Nanites are already part of their tools, and are easily converted to ammo, too.

We can argue whether to have, or not have, player dispensed ammo at all, in another thread. However, for this thread, given that the mechanism is actually already in the game, and that the developers themselves already said they will likely move it to another class... That is the paradigm I am operating under here.

Someone else actually employing logic here... thank you sir!

The majority of the arguments to have it on LA are because they apparently don't have a well defined role (aside from exterior combat). I think the counter-argument for this would be to better define the role of LA with other skills and abilities.

The majority of the arguments to have it on HA are because HA need a lot of ammo, which makes little sense as was pointed out; it'll only encourage hoarding.

The majority of the arguments to have it on MED is because the other options weren't well-liked and the fact that MED is routinely in the thick of the battle where ammunition is being expended.

It seems pretty obvious that these are not great arguments, at least to me. The only argument against ENG having it seem to be that ENG have enough to do... but the reality is that most deployables are placed before, after, or during a lull in battle. During battle, like MED, Eng are fighting and working to support those that need assistance. The screenshots Neurotoxin have shown us show that ENG have an unlockable deployable armament supply terminal which likely will dispense ammunition.

Thus my argument is to do away with ammo boxes entirely. ENG already has a solution that doesn't require people to be throwing crates of ammo everywhere, and should encourage ammo conservation when one of those terminals isn't nearby.

IMMentat

2012-06-09, 04:57 PM

Ok so lets start with the assumption that the engineer station will act like a mobile resupply terminal (ammo and deployables yes, class change no).

Lets pretend that the LA keep the ammo pack. But limit it to 1-2 uses only before needing resupply. It is easy enough to tweak light assault spare ammo capacity to negate so called "unlimited ammo" fears.
Let them restock ammo packs only at an engy/equipment teminal, so encourage them to stay near to faction friends.

How does that sound?

IMO a restricted use ammo packs could be one of several viable utility options for LA.
Maybe provide a targeting beam/waypoint/beacon to maintain a spot for platoon member/aircraft (show the outline of a single target for as long as the LA has them under the non damaging #beam#). It would help friendly ambushes and alert the driver but make the LA an obvious target.
A single use jump-pad/rope-ladder/zipline/teleport to allow one (non-max) friendly to get onto a low wall/roof is another option (maybe 1/3 the height of the basic jump-jet) sort of a breaching tactic. Think about it before flaming, properly balanced (3-5 seconds deploy time, single use) it could work.

LA have fantastic manueverability, but so far, I have seen little to let them use that in a supportive way for their faction/team (OFC spotting could be a huge advantage but we are yet to see it in a natural PS2 environment).

Rexdezi

2012-06-09, 04:57 PM

maybe one way to stop hoarding is to make it so that you cannot pick up your own ammo, you can only give it to others. Slightly unrealistic maybe, but so is a flying tank...

At the worst, it would make lone wolves into bi wolves... or dual wolves... idk... where 2 players work together, supplying one another. which is no bad thing right? its not ideal, but not as bad as lone wolf

oh and if you give it to the infiltrator he WILL use it on himself. Sniping, run out of ammo, drop some more, yay more ammo.

oh and I still support having only 1 or 2 ammo drops and they cost resources like grenades

Grognard

2012-06-09, 04:58 PM

Someone else actually employing logic here... thank you sir!

The majority of the arguments to have it on LA are because they apparently don't have a well defined role (aside from exterior combat). I think the counter-argument for this would be to better define the role of LA with other skills and abilities.

The majority of the arguments to have it on HA are because HA need a lot of ammo, which makes little sense as was pointed out; it'll only encourage hoarding.

The majority of the arguments to have it on MED is because the other options weren't well-liked and the fact that MED is routinely in the thick of the battle where ammunition is being expended.

It seems pretty obvious that these are not great arguments, at least to me. The only argument against ENG having it seem to be that ENG have enough to do... but the reality is that most deployables are placed before, after, or during a lull in battle. During battle, like MED, Eng are fighting and working to support those that need assistance. The screenshots Neurotoxin have shown us show that ENG have an unlockable deployable armament supply terminal which likely will dispense ammunition.

Thus my argument is to do away with ammo boxes entirely. ENG already has a solution that doesn't require people to be throwing crates of ammo everywhere, and should encourage ammo conservation when one of those terminals isn't nearby.

Agreed.

One caveat, if you will allow me.

The one, or two box, dispensable, would be the base "ammo supply" ability. The dispenser deployable would be the advanced extension of that precedent. Therefore, there is no overlap of an ability already existent to the class, just an unlocked evolution, just like all the other classes.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 05:01 PM

Personally, when it comes to ammo, a large segment of the population will be... how shall I say... selfish.

In order to "cause" (ie force) the concept ammo dispensing to be anything but a subject of contention, it should be on a class that has, generally, less a reliance on ammo as its class' theme. It should go to a class, that ussually attracts a type of player, or someone in the mindframe to... be a support class. This way, the ammo will actually be "supplied", instead of greedily keep to themselves.

This leaves out:
MAX - class focus is ammo dependant.
HA - class focus is ammo dependant.
LA - class focus is ammo dependant.

So, candidates are:
INF - class focus is arguably non-ammo dependant, but the focus is often tactically lonewolf, so not a good choice.
MED - class focus is non-ammo dependant, but obviously as healers, they are already a huge target for focus fire. Giving them ammo resupply capability seems over the top, not to mention antithetical. Again, not a good choice.

This leaves my pick: Engineer.

1. Class focus is non-ammo dependant.
2. Support minded players are attracted to this class.
3. Resupply, and repair are not antithetical, rather complimentary.
4. They repair more than just vehicles, so should be interfaced with infantry also.
5. Nanites are already part of their tools, and are easily converted to ammo, too.

We can argue whether to have, or not have, player dispensed ammo at all, in another thread. However, for this thread, given that the mechanism is actually already in the game, and that the developers themselves already said they will likely move it to another class... That is the paradigm I am operating under here.

I agree with everything you said.

I just feel they're taking utility from a class (LAs) that would make sense to have that utility, without giving anything back (that we know of, so far).

I also feel engis already have a lot going on (i'm not even biased against them, i plan to play engi the most), but i do agree they're the ones that make the most sense dispensing ammo.

The majority of the arguments to have it on LA are because they apparently don't have a well defined role (aside from exterior combat). I think the counter-argument for this would be to better define the role of LA with other skills and abilities.

Agreed, and not a bad idea about finding something else for LAs btw.

The majority of the arguments to have it on HA are because HA need a lot of ammo, which makes little sense as was pointed out; it'll only encourage hoarding.

The majority of the arguments to have it on MED is because the other options weren't well-liked and the fact that MED is routinely in the thick of the battle where ammunition is being expended.

It seems pretty obvious that these are not great arguments, at least to me. The only argument against ENG having it seem to be that ENG have enough to do... but the reality is that most deployables are placed before, after, or during a lull in battle. During battle, like MED, Eng are fighting and working to support those that need assistance. The screenshots Neurotoxin have shown us show that ENG have an unlockable deployable armament supply terminal which likely will dispense ammunition.

Agreed.

Thus my argument is to do away with ammo boxes entirely. ENG already has a solution that doesn't require people to be throwing crates of ammo everywhere, and should encourage ammo conservation when one of those terminals isn't nearby.

I'd still like to have a mobile ammo dispenser, so front liners can stay up there pushing... Maybe having a sidegrade to the dispenser, making it an engi dispenser backpack that has a bigger cooldown than the static dispenser?
I dunno, just spitballin now. :p

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 05:06 PM

I agree with everything you said.

I just feel they're taking utility from a class (LAs) that would make sense to have that utility, without giving anything back (that we know of, so far).

I also feel engis already have a lot going on (i'm not even biased against them, i plan to play engi the most), but i do agree they're the ones that make the most sense dispensing ammo.

Agreed, and not a bad idea about finding something else for LAs btw.

Agreed.

I'd still like to have a mobile ammo dispenser, so front liners can keep up there pushing... Maybe having a sidegrade to the dispenser, making it an engi dispenser backpack that has a bigger cooldown than the static dispenser? I dunno, just spitballin now. :p

I can't argue with any of that. Perhaps an engie can deconstruct the old terminal remotely and put up a new one without wasting an ACE? Or an option like you described; I don't see why there should be a separate mechanic from the terminal (which is described as a mobile terminal afterall) if the terminal mechanic can be well-designed or sidegradeable.

EDIT - Someone else on another thread mentioning moving some of the scout abilities from Infil to LA, which I wouldn't argue with. Though I'd rather see LA be an anti-Engie, jumping over deployables and countering them with jammers. If Engie is the area-denial class with deployables, LA is the perfect counter. I'd say give them EMP grenades like the Infil and let them clear minefields and the like, though their C4 grenade may be sufficient.

Another alternative is to give them something small that could be used against aircraft and vehicles. Flak Rocklet Rifle anyone? They're designed for exterior combat so making them light AA / AV would be a good bet.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 05:09 PM

Yes, a transplantable dispenser (like they made later on in TF2) sounds good too.

Atheosim

2012-06-09, 05:09 PM

So engineers have to deploy base defenses, repair vehicles and MAXs, AND keep people resupplied? No thanks. Keep it with either LA or HA.

Nasher

2012-06-09, 05:13 PM

I dont really thing ANY class should be able to drop it. It should be air dropped from e.g. a liberator or galaxy, or called in with a drop pod using an ability.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 05:17 PM

So engineers have to (...) keep people resupplied?

I plan on being mostly an engi and i aprove of this... It's hardly any work at all.

What's wrong with having a little something else to do other than just hammer away at my machines once they're complete?

Grognard

2012-06-09, 05:20 PM

@thread in general.

The problem I have with the LA doing the ammo dispensation, above and beyond the fact that they will use for themselves, is due to the functionality of the class... It is so mobile that they will outrun the other friendly infantry as a matter of course, and be in places that make it difficult to present oneself for resupply. Most LA will severely degrade ammo resupply priority when they are trying not to die, or get a capture point, or "get kills"... and rightly so.

I just dont think it will pan out in the heat of battle. A front line class, that needs to reposition themselves into locations non-maneourerable heavy armored classes will be, to resupply them, will be a dangerous, tedious task, "overlooked". Ammo supply locks the LA class into non-mobile class locals, thereby inhibiting their own mobility in the process, and unduely exposing them. To me it is antithetical for LA to do this. So, what makes the most sense for them to do with the ammo? Use it...

atone

2012-06-09, 05:21 PM

I gotta new class for the game. its called THE PACK MULE, formally known as the engineer.

but seriously, you bring up some good points but lets look at what the engineer is going to be doing during a battle:
set turrets
set traps
set up defensive walls
repair vehicles
repair MAX units
and a whole list of other fun stuff that they haven't announced yet.

my point being that the main reason for not giving the ammo to the engineer is possible overloading.

i got it.

MAX CRASH 2.0 : engineer finds a couple of max units and just runs over everything in our path. repairing and resupplying the whole way.

ThermalReaper

2012-06-09, 05:21 PM

I still agree with engie being ammo resupplier, considering I'm going to play LA(I'll resupply if the class still have the ability) But I guess you'd have to ask a player who is going to play engineer

Dagron

2012-06-09, 05:38 PM

MAX CRASH 2.0 : engineer finds a couple of max units and just runs over everything in our path. repairing and resupplying the whole way.

Now this could be problematic, but a dispenser that took time to redeploy when transported would somewhat mitigate that problem.

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 05:41 PM

This leaves my pick: Engineer.

1. Class focus is non-ammo dependant.
2. Support minded players are attracted to this class.
3. Resupply, and repair are not antithetical, rather complimentary.
4. They repair more than just vehicles, so should be interfaced with infantry also.
5. Nanites are already part of their tools, and are easily converted to ammo, too.

All the classes can hoard if the player wishes so. I already explained why hoarding wouldn't be beneficial even for so called "ammo-dependent" classes. They will have more chances to survive and capture a base and gain access to supply terminal even if they

Engy is good pick however not necessarily the only one suitable.

1. Don't see hard reason why ammo-dependence should be absolute counter-indication. Since HA most prominent feature distinguishing that class is being able to to engage vehicles I don't think that giving them only anti-infantry ammo packs to carry them makes them OP.

Due to mechanics how the ammo pack currently work they would provide ammo accessible to other even when hoarding - that is my main problem with LA (LA will jump on the roof or somewhere else out-of-reach to other to resupply while HAs can't do that thus ammo pack they drop won't be unavailable to other classes).

2. True but they have plenty of support roles to do, giving some limited support function (like carrying 1-2 ammo packs) to other classes wouldn't end the world. Engies with their Supply Terminals would still be the "numero uno" in resupplying.

3. Only that Engies don't only repair everything, they set up mines, covers, supply terminals, turrets etc... I really think they have more than enough support to do.

4. They are already interfaced with infantry since they do task described in point 3. If they are given the role of only Ammo supplier that means they will have to operate more on the front lines to resupply classes like HA and not in the background providing support. I believe that most Engy choose that roles since they don't want to be directly in the heavy firefights and as a class are least prepared for such tasks (even Medics will be able to heal themselves and thus increase their survival in those kind of situations). Engies are not a front line class and that and having most abilities anyway makes me think they shouldn't be given this role. Even Medics could actually be better the more I think about it.

5. Converting Nanites to Ammo would mean having unlimited supply of Ammo if nanite count isn't limited, otherwise it would be stupid to limit ammo packs to 1 or 2 at the time (per spawn/resupply). On the other side if you limit the nanite count and make it resupplyable on terminals I doubt that that many Engies would bother to resupply others since they would need their Nanites for more important tasks like repairs and making turrets and other stuff.

Someone else actually employing logic here... thank you sir!

Other words for "thank you employing logic I like".... :rofl: Give me one serious reason why HA shouldn't have few Ammo packs under conditions I stated in OP. I will accept if you make me see a major flaw in this concept.

The majority of the arguments to have it on HA are because HA need a lot of ammo, which makes little sense as was pointed out; it'll only encourage hoarding.

This is serious oversimplification just go through my posts and you will see that that isn't only nor main argument or simply choose to ignore them like you did with this statement. Saying that it will encourage hoarding make no sense too since they should have limited number of Ammo packs. They could hog (we were using the wrong word here, me too) it for themselves (refuse to share) however in a way it currently works (everyone in vicinity is resupplied) it wouldn't be completely possible nor it would be beneficial in long runs since having two firing guns (player) instead of one increases your survival rate far more than hogging the ammo for yourself.

Inverness

2012-06-09, 05:42 PM

Exactly! Why would someone in a dedicated assault role want to break off his attack to run to you for ammo. No you would have to run to him and then hope he isnt too engaged to give you some. It's a support role for ammo supply. Let someone in that role run around to whoever needs it and give them what they need. How hard can this be?
Then make HAs act as mobile dispensers. They'll have a little ammo icon above their head and you can walk up to them and get ammo automatically just by pressing G or whatever. It would also work like a vehicle lock where you let anybody get ammo, or just people in your squad.

Khrusky

2012-06-09, 05:43 PM

I think that the medic should have the ammo resupply ability, and not the engineer, because the engineer class should be staying with the vehicles (and deployed vehicles, i.e. forward bases) rather than being with the infantry squads, which is the domain of the medic.

Grognard

2012-06-09, 05:46 PM

I gotta new class for the game. its called THE PACK MULE, formally known as the engineer.

my point being that the main reason for not giving the ammo to the engineer is possible overloading.

...and if I was playing an engineer, I would be happy to bear the moniker, because I know what I do, and "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet".

Engineers are problem solvers. Combat engineers solve combat problems, proactively, or reactively.

Base undefended? Fix wall turrets - problem solved!
Vehicles cant take another hit? Glue gun 'em - problem solved!
3 MAXs just ran out of ammo in a contested control point? Ammo resupply - problem solved (as I cackle in a corner, mindlessly over the carnage, knowing those were my f'ng bullets).

Point is, engineers fix problems with an assortment of gadgets/tools, but nothing in the engineers book demands that they must do them all concurently, rather situationally... I suspect most engineers, as support-minded as they ussually are, will love another tool in the box.

"Engys need lotsa tools in the box, to fix the tools that cant think outa th'box..." - author unknown.

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 05:51 PM

Hmr85

2012-06-09, 05:54 PM

...and if I was playing an engineer, I would be happy to bear the moniker, because I know what I do, and "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet".

Engineers are problem solvers. Combat engineers solve combat problems, proactively, or reactively.

Base undefended? Fix wall turrets - problem solved!
Vehicles cant take another hit? Glue gun 'em - problem solved!
3 MAXs just ran out of ammo in a contested control point? Ammo resupply - problem solved (as I cackle in a corner, mindlessly over the carnage, knowing those were my f'ng bullets).

Point is, engineers fix problems with an assortment of gadgets/tools, but nothing in the engineers book demands that they must do them all concurently, rather situationally... I suspect most engineers, as support-minded as they ussually are, will love another tool in the box.

"Engys need lotsa tools in the box, to fix the tools that cant think outa th'box..." - author unknown.

QFT

I say give it to Engineers imo.

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 05:54 PM

Exactly! Why would someone in a dedicated assault role want to break off his attack to run to you for ammo. No you would have to run to him and then hope he isnt too engaged to give you some. It's a support role for ammo supply. Let someone in that role run around to whoever needs it and give them what they need. How hard can this be?

Sweet, :D you actually believe that weak armored supporter like Engy will actually run to into crossfire to reach you when you cry MOAR AMMO!

I don't, but that perhaps because I'm a realist. HAs won't need to run to you, they be there in first rows, you'll run to them if you run out when they drop ammo to resupply themselves so you can grab some of the ammo they dropped.

Also that point of Engy-MAX combo being OP someone mentioned is also to be taken seriously into account if Engyies could both fix and supply them.

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 05:56 PM

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 06:15 PM

I remember Engies being in the thick of the battle in PS repairing armor without getting mowed down. In fact, in PS2 they can deploy shields and the like, so they're hardly defenseless.

And Engie-MAX is called teamwork. The solution is to kill the Engie, then the MAX. :doh: Plenty of ways to do this with 2 players on the opposing side.

Perhaps because they were hiding behind the armor (tank or MAX or whatever)? I doubt that will be the same in pure infantry skirmishes, and if they are made so they could last long even then what would seriously be their weak spot? None? :rolleyes:

Yeah right teamwork, however it's just the case that no other "teamwork" combination could possibly have this amount of power that this combo will have. HA-medic combo would be nowhere near that even if the Medic could actually resupply the HA with ammo. Most of the times you would have to go through MAX to reach the Engy and that would be tough and even when you kill one MAX could quite easily last until another one arrives or the same one respawns via drop-pod or in nearby Gal.

Get some perspective man... we all see that you like Engies very much but try to think about the game balance. What would be Engy weak spot if they could do that many things (almost everything)? Only possible solution I see is taking them away all the big guns and leaving them with basic pistols only. :lol:

Also Engies are prime choice for vehicle drivers/gunner and that is the role they are superior to any of other classes. Why should they need to have such a vital role in infantry game play anyway considering that?

Nasher

2012-06-09, 06:15 PM

...
MAX CRASH 2.0 : engineer finds a couple of max units and just runs over everything in our path. repairing and resupplying the whole way.

Actually, I'm thinking this is the reason why they didn't give ammo drops to engi. 2 MAXes means a weapon to kill anything after customization, with unlimited ammo and repairs :o

"Just kill the engi" is easier said than done when the MAXes are blocking the way :P

Zolan

2012-06-09, 06:21 PM

What class should carry ammo packs?

None of them. :cool:

ArmedZealot

2012-06-09, 06:22 PM

What class should carry ammo packs?

None of them. :cool:

So brave.

Hmr85

2012-06-09, 06:25 PM

Actually, I'm thinking this is the reason why they didn't give ammo drops to engi. 2 MAXes means a weapon to kill anything after customization, with unlimited ammo and repairs :o

"Just kill the engi" is easier said than done when the MAXes are blocking the way :P

HA with rockets. Focus fire down a target. Hit the engys with grenades. Its not that hard. That's why I don't really buy that argument. Your typical zerg player is gonna be like its not fair. Your typical team mentality player in a outfit will only see a way to counter it.

Zolan

2012-06-09, 06:32 PM

If anyone gets ammo packs it should be the light assault, plain and simple.

Infiltrator? - Infinite camper - Nope

Medic? - They already have a job. - Nope

Engineer? - They already have enough jobs. - Nope

Heavy Assault? - Infinite Rocket/Nade/Chaingun/etc. Spam - Nope

MAX? - No... Just no.

With that in mind, the real question should be...

Should the Light Assault (or anyone for that matter) carry ammo? y/n

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 06:49 PM

Zolan

2012-06-09, 06:58 PM

Heavy Assaults have rockets too. If you gave them ammo packs (infinite rockets) vehicles would be a joke.

The best solution is to just get rid of the ammo packs altogether.

Maybe give each of the classes some +ammo certs to help with longevity instead.

The good ole "One Extra" cert.
+1 rocket/+1 clip/+1 etc.

KTNApollo

2012-06-09, 07:00 PM

If LA doesn't get the ammo, they'll bring nothing to the table other than mobility.

HA already has the jack of all trades status for AA/AI/AV so they can't have it.

Engineers also have too many things...Turrets/Repairs, if an Engineer could give out ammo they could run around with a MAX and endlessly keep it full on ammo and health. Doesn't this seem OP to anyone else?

Infiltrator already has cloak and long range potential, give them ammo dispensing and they'll never have to leave the enemy territory/sniping position.

Medic can revive and heal people. If they can give out ammo they can keep people alive and full on ammo just like the Engi/MAX, except Medics heal all 5 of the other classes. OP.

MAX can't have it for obvious reasons.

Think before you vote for Engineer. It would be incredibly OP. LA is the correct choice.

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 07:01 PM

If you gave them ammo packs (infinite rockets) vehicles would be a joke.

Another specialist. :rolleyes: Read the OP and my actual suggestion before making an uninformed judgement.

If LA doesn't get the ammo, they'll bring nothing to the table other than mobility.

Mobility an positional advantage what is a huge thing. They get the best overview of the battle ground most rapidly, their role in informing the other what's happening via the VOIP should be great. Also they should give them spotting ability possibly the OS ability too.

HAs should have low AA/AV ammo count and those should be only obtainable via terminals... that is the premise I operate under when suggesting them to carry Ammo packs. Also the hogging the ammo danger is much smaller with them if done correctly (see my previous posts :D) since they can't jump to roof and other inaccessible safe spots to resupply like LAs will be doing.

Grognard

2012-06-09, 07:05 PM

Sweet, :D you actually believe that weak armored supporter like Engy will actually run to into crossfire to reach you when you cry MOAR AMMO!

I don't, but that perhaps because I'm a realist. HAs won't need to run to you, they be there in first rows, you'll run to them if you run out when they drop ammo to resupply themselves so you can grab some of the ammo they dropped.

Also that point of Engy-MAX combo being OP someone mentioned is also to be taken seriously into account if Engyies could both fix and supply them.

I'll address your point directly.

As I understand it, the unwavering premise, given what I have read, seems to be... Heavy Assault should have resupply capability. You do seem to be focusing more on this, than on who should have it, and of course the two are different in intent.

You have stated... "Give me one serious reason why HA shouldn't have few Ammo packs under conditions I stated in OP. I will accept if you make me see a major flaw in this concept.

So, I will try. I'm not trying to throw statistics I dont have at you, or present anything here as fact, when it is just my opinion. Take it as such.

There are two ways I can see this implemented:
1. HA+ AmmoResupply they can use.
2. HA+ AmmoResupply they can not use.

Point 1:
The serious reason why HA should not have resupply capability, if they can use it, is because they will. Its no longer resupply capability, it becomes "higher ammo capacity", which they can build into the class itself. The focus of this class, and this class in particular is "rounds down range". More rounds = better performance as a player. Just a tedious drop of a box, is a better performance button, and that is precisely what they will do.

Point 2:
The serious reason why HA should not have resupply capability, if they can not use it, is because being addressed for ammo, as support role is a major distraction to your focus, even if you are out of ammo for them. They will be saddled with "cmon man, need sum ammo dude", constantly. The last thing an HA guy needs to to be unduely focus on by the enemy, because he is unduely focus on by his own guys "bitching for bullets", making them a nice big clusterfuck of grenadebait. On top of that... it would likely be the same, as point 1., only in HA pairs now. Two HA will simply marry each other and "Ill do you, if you do me, until death do us part"... until the inevitable divorce at the end of the firefight.

The focus of the class is rounds down range, dish it, and take it. I would not want an HA to be expected to take his/her attention off of that job, even for a second to type "sorry out" if youre nice, or "fuck off" if your irritated after the 5th time, given my reasons above, as I too, am a realist. I suspect many HA will not want to be a "support guy" too, when they are directly in the thick of it, and can barely stay alive as it is.

Zolan

2012-06-09, 07:06 PM

Another specialist. :rolleyes: Read the OP and my actual suggestion before making an uninformed judgement.

I make informed judgements based upon what IS in the game. :cool:

Dagron

2012-06-09, 07:07 PM

Ok, the main resentment behind HA having Ammo packs is them having too much of it, right? Or?

So let's say that currently HA has assault rifle (Cycler i.e.) pool of 250 bullets, that's about the standard for heavy automatic rifles in some games. If they cut that pool to 100 and supplied the rest via 1 Ammo packs of 200 (2 perhaps if they sacrificed their shield ability or something as crucial as that). Would that be acceptable? HA couldn't thus hog all the Ammo only for themselves since they couldn't take instantly or within a short time period all the ammo they would drop in Ammo pack. This wouldn't effectively increase their Ammo count at all yet it would it would give them a role of provider (support) too.

This is an only an example since I don't know the exact ammo count figures.

p.s. preparing for some HA rage coming my way right now.... :p

Well, i would be fine with anything as long as LAs got something in return (as was suggested earlier) and now that i think about it, they likely will.

However, you keep hitting the HA key like it's someone's hot sister... Some pretty compeling arguments have been made for other classes (also for no/all classes) so far, specially engi, and you gave no indication you even considered anything being said: you want it to be HA and that's that, end of story. You're coming on a little strong.

I guess my point now is we all have to just agree to disagree and wait for more information/beta to be released.

Take no offense, i just think you're a little obcessed. :p

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 07:25 PM

I'll address your point directly.

As I understand it, the unwavering premise, given what I have read, seems to be... Heavy Assault should have resupply capability. You do seem to be focusing more on this, than on who should have it, and of course the two are different in intent.

You have stated... "Give me one serious reason why HA shouldn't have few Ammo packs under conditions I stated in OP. I will accept if you make me see a major flaw in this concept.

So, I will try. I'm not trying to throw statistics I dont have at you, or present anything here as fact, when it is just my opinion. Take it as such.

There are two ways I can see this implemented:
1. HA+ AmmoResupply they can use.
2. HA+ AmmoResupply they can not use.

Point 1:
The serious reason why HA should not have resupply capability, if they can use it, is because they will. Its no longer resupply capability, it becomes "higher ammo capacity", which they can build into the class itself. The focus of this class, and this class in particular is "rounds down range". More rounds = better performance as a player. Just a tedious drop of a box, is a better performance button, and that is precisely what they will do.

Point 2:
The serious reason why HA should not have resupply capability, if they can not use it, is because being addressed for ammo, as support role is a major distraction to your focus, even if you are out of ammo for them. They will be saddled with "cmon man, need sum ammo dude", constantly. The last thing an HA guy needs to to be unduely focus on by the enemy, because he is unduely focus on by his own guys "bitching for bullets", making them a nice big clusterfuck of grenadebait. On top of that... it would likely be the same, as point 1., only in HA pairs now. Two HA will simply marry each other and "Ill do you, if you do me, until death do us part"... until the inevitable divorce at the end of the firefight.

The focus of the class is rounds down range, dish it, and take it. I would not want an HA to be expected to take his/her attention off of that job, even for a second to type "sorry out" if youre nice, or "fuck off" if your irritated after the 5th time, given my reasons above, as I too, am a realist. I suspect many HA will not want to be a "support guy" too, when they are directly in the thick of it, and can barely stay alive as it is.

Read my second post here.

1. Giving them APs shouldn't necessarily mean they would get more ammo overall.

2. They could just drop the ammo for themselves not other necessarily, and other lighter (faster) classes would easily pick up the leftovers, so it shouldn't take much of their focus (I don't think HAs should be going around asking people if they have enough ammo).

Yes, I have concentrated on that class (perhaps too much as you say) since I think all other leading classes (both LAs and Engies) would be worse choices than HA. Medic is however increasingly becoming a good choice in my eyes right now.

However, you keep hitting the HA key like it's someone's hot sister... Some pretty compeling arguments have been made for other classes (also for no/all classes) so far, specially engi, and you gave no indication you even considered anything being said: you want it to be HA and that's that, end of story. You're coming on a little strong. You missed some of my posts then I commented on Engy quite a lot and am currently very sceptical toward that idea.

Take no offense, i just think you're a little obcessed. :p

It's obsessed, and none taken. :D

Zolan

2012-06-09, 07:27 PM

Some pretty compeling arguments have been made for other classes (also for no/all classes) so far, specially engi...

Maybe engineer wouldn't be a bad choice now that I think about it.

I initially felt like they already had enough to do, but then again, they are a support class. There isn't really any way they could exploit the unlimited ammo. Their main weapon isn't that considerable in comparison to the LA or HA. I'm not sure whether the turrets already have infinite ammo or not, so I can't make a judgement there, but it doesn't seem like that would be a problem either.

Giving them an ammo pack would just make them more useful as a "defense" focused support. Set up a turret near a corner, throw down an ammo pack, and vuala you have a defensible hard point/staging area. Someone can man your turret, you can toss down an ammo pack or two, and then repair any MAX units that wander by.

Then again, I still think they should just get rid of the packs altogether to encourage everyone to conserve ammunition and aim more carefully.

Grognard

2012-06-09, 07:31 PM

Read my second post here.

1. Giving them APs shouldn't necessarily mean they would get more ammo overall.

2. They could just drop the ammo for themselves not other necessarily, and other lighter (faster) classes would easily pick up the leftovers, so it shouldn't take much of their focus (I don't think HAs should be going around asking people if they have enough ammo).

Yes, I have concentrated on that class (perhaps too much as you say) since I think all other leading classes (both LAs and Engies) would be worse choices than HA. Medic is however increasingly becoming a good choice in my eyes right now.

Very well then, Ive done my best, I just leave you primary HA guys out there with this warning...

The ADDs, and non-tacticals will swarm you bitching for bullets. You will have an angry entourage, waiting for you to be their milk-sucking mother. As fate would have it these are precisely the folks you dont want highlighting you in the middle of a fight...

Be careful what you ask for, because, as classes go... "if you build it, they will come..."

Dagron

2012-06-09, 07:31 PM

It's obsessed, and none taken. :D

Ooooo... look at the obsessed grammar nazi being all fancy!
Sry, i had to do that. :lol:

The ADDs, and non-tacticals will swarm you bitching for bullets. You will have an angry entourage, waiting for you to be their milk-sucking mother. As fate would have it these are precisely the folks you dont want highlighting you in the middle of a fight...

No, don't tell them that! They'll want to have a swarm of easy target noobs around them to soak up all the fire that should be flying in their direction! :D

Immigrant

2012-06-09, 07:35 PM

Ooooo... look at the obsessed grammar nazi being all fancy! :D
Sry, i had to do that. :rofl:

:nazi: ;) No prob, it's time to call it a night. See you l8er fellaz.

atone

2012-06-09, 07:44 PM

I commend everyone's dedication to this thread. ;)

sylphaen

2012-06-09, 07:52 PM

Well, it would be a better thread with an "other" option and less bias in the OP but it's still a decent thread with good input. I'm pretty sure "other" would have won over the proposed options, though; so the actual poll stats are not really representative.

DerFurst

2012-06-09, 07:53 PM

Classes in a nutshell:
LA: Guerilla/blitzkrieg infantry combat.
HA: Frontline infantry and armor combat.
Engineer: Handyman with all the nuts n' bolts you need.
Medic: An engineer that works on people.
MAX: KILL EVERYTHING.
Infiltrator: Shh, I'm being sneaky,

Out of all the classes, it just makes sense for the engineer to have the ammo.

Hypevosa

2012-06-09, 08:31 PM

Yeah, he needs to wait for an ammo drop but with either method somebody is going to have to wait. With HA method, the LA has the freedom to choose when to resupply, not be "forced" to relocate.
guess its more of pros vs cons. Yes he's gonna need ammo eventually, we all do. but HA supplying it just benefits more people.

HA doesn't have the mobility to get ammo where it's needed though, and has weapons that kill faster.

There's less harm in giving the worst armed and most easily killed class the ammo, than letting the heavier armed and armored classes sit and camp with it.

MyMeatStick

2012-06-09, 08:52 PM

I don't like the idea of the engi having the ammo box and either having unlimited C4/Mines/Deployables or having to exchange something to put ammo in its place. I don't see engineers even taking ammo boxes if they have to exchange something good for it, therefore players on the field wouldn't get any.

Personally I see giving the LA ammo as the best idea gameplay wize, its quick, agile and can get to groups of people in need of ammo with the jetpack alot faster than anyone else. Plus with the added points, hud elements and voice chat in the gameplay I think people will be willing to drop it whenever someone asks with either voip, in-game chat and the logos above peoples heads.

There are plenty of ways to get people to work together already implimented into the game which is what BF3 did wrong, there was no way to ask for this stuff in game besides jumping around infront of them and shouting at your monitor to drop ammo.

But alas my opinion will go unseen as it looks like people have already voted for the engi, I see that as a mistake.

Knightwyvern

2012-06-09, 09:01 PM

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 09:04 PM

Engineer already seems to have the MAST: Mobile Armaments Supply Terminal. What if an Engi plops this down as a limited use destructible object, and then all classes (other than MAX?) can pick up a SINGLE USE, limited supply ammo box from it.

This way we get the best of both worlds. A form of self-sustainability for front line troops, but one that requires teamwork and logistics to use. Win Win.

And best idea in thread goes to my brother. :)

I don't like the idea of the engi having the ammo box and either having unlimited C4/Mines/Deployables or having to exchange something to put ammo in its place. I don't see engineers even taking ammo boxes if they have to exchange something good for it, therefore players on the field wouldn't get any.

ACE != Ammo

Also understand that an engi carries nanites, which create items for him. He's not physically carrying around mana turrets, you know.

MyMeatStick

2012-06-09, 09:13 PM

ACE != Ammo

Also understand that an engi carries nanites, which create items for him. He's not physically carrying around mana turrets, you know.

I'm talking from a gameplay point of view and not the lore.

I don't see a reason to play light assault if it doesn't have the ability to drop ammo.

Knightwyvern

2012-06-09, 09:22 PM

I'm talking from a gameplay point of view and not the lore.

I don't see a reason to play light assault if it doesn't have the ability to drop ammo.

Because it has a Jump pack? Smoke/flash grenades? Their role is to jump over walls, shoot things and cause mayhem. If anything they are the anti-engineer, sort of along with infiltrators.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 09:23 PM

I don't see a reason to play light assault if it doesn't have the ability to drop ammo.

That has already been discussed all over this thread.

Because it has a Jump pack? Smoke/flash grenades? Their role is to jump over walls, shoot things and cause mayhem. If anything they are the anti-engineer, sort of along with infiltrators.

And this is NOT the reason i was convienced to let go of ammo drops for them... -_-

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 09:27 PM

I'm talking from a gameplay point of view and not the lore.

I don't see a reason to play light assault if it doesn't have the ability to drop ammo.

Because when we watched the E3 stream, all those LAs were doing was dropping ammo, right? :rolleyes:

MyMeatStick

2012-06-09, 09:31 PM

Because when we watched the E3 stream, all those LAs were doing was dropping ammo, right? :rolleyes:

That was E3, a large portion of those people we saw playing were completely new and didn't know what they were doing and didn't have any teamwork within outfits and squads.

If you were light assault in a squad or outfit and people were screaming for ammo, wouldn't you go deliver that ammo?

Dagron

2012-06-09, 09:34 PM

To me, as long as LAs get class specific abilities to chose from that gave them the option between what they do now and a support role, i'd be fine with the ammo drop being removed.

Also, no i do NOT think "zomg jetpacks are kewl and that's all they should get"...
Everyone else keeps making that argument and to me it holds as much water as a paper bag. >.<

The reason i no longer think they're the best choice is because of these arguments:

- Engineers have a more support-like mentality, they are more likely to drop ammo to people who need it and less likely to hog it.

- While engis are not as mobile, they're already both near the front and the defense lines anyway, repairing their nest and/or MAXes, so they're a good choice to hold the ammo. They're also usually free to move around a little when they're done building their gizmos.

- I'm aware that engis already have a lot on their plate, but since they already have a dispenser type of construction, why not make as a sidegrade to that dispenser a movable kind of ammo distribution unit? Ammo drops are right up the engineers support role ally anyway, so it makes perfect sense.

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 09:46 PM

That was E3, a large portion of those people we saw playing were completely new and didn't know what they were doing and didn't have any teamwork within outfits and squads.

If you were light assault in a squad or outfit and people were screaming for ammo, wouldn't you go deliver that ammo?

No, because I'd be busy doing what my class is designed to do, which is circumventing base defenses and the area denial laid by engineers to soften up the enemy in advance of our troops.

I agree they should have a secondary function, but dropping ammo boxes is a poor solution because it doesn't really have any synergy with the primary role.

Knightwyvern

2012-06-09, 09:47 PM

Dagron

2012-06-09, 09:52 PM

I agree that LA should get some other ability that will allow them to change up their play style. Honestly I'm still trying to think of what a good alternative might be :P

I'm also having a hard time thinking of something, but this made me realize that some other option besides the ammo drop might solve the LAs lack of role verstility problem.

That allowed me to let go of my bias and see that engis are a more adequate option to ammo resupply troops they're already hovering around anyway.

Knightwyvern

2012-06-09, 09:57 PM

I'm also having a hard time thinking of something, but this made me realize that some other option besides the ammo drop might solve the LAs lack of role verstility problem.

That allowed me to let go of my bias and see that engis are a more adequate option to ammo resupply troops they're already hovering around anyway.

I'm glad to hear it. However, every time I think up something that the LA could do as a alternate, I.E. removing their jet pack for another pack type or something.. I always come up with things that are already covered by the other classes such as minefield sweeping (Infil) etc. It's a toughy.

Stew

2012-06-09, 10:02 PM

Fenrys

2012-06-09, 10:03 PM

All of the above, in place of something else like grenades, for a resource cost.

Electrofreak

2012-06-09, 10:06 PM

ENG already have repair tool turret deployement etc..

having AMO they will simply be overpower been able to repair a MAX been able to revive a MAX been able to have infinite amo and been able to deploy turrets sound really overpower to me

I do not why why people keep voting for ENG !

An Engie cannot revive a MAX. Don't post if you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Engineers can deploy turrets, repair vehicles and armor, provide resupply. In return, they sacrifice armor without having the mobility of light assault or the stealth of an infiltrator.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 10:07 PM

Knightwyvern

2012-06-09, 10:08 PM

An Engie cannot revive a MAX. Don't post if you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Engineers can deploy turrets, repair vehicles and armor, provide resupply. In return, they sacrifice armor without having the mobility of light assault or the stealth of an infiltrator.

Or the raw mobile firepower of a Heavy Assault or MAX.

Engineers are supposed to be the support role, along with Medics. Medics with ammo packs makes no sense; therefor, Engineers are the logical choice.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 10:13 PM

I do not why why people keep voting for ENG !

You may have arguments against the engis, but if you don't see the arguments people are making for them then you've not been reading anything in this thread so far.

Anyway, imo if engis are building + repairing their gizmos + repairing MAXes + resupplying at the same time and they're kicking ass, then they should be winning... they can't possibly do everything at the same time. If they do it all, they're half-assing most of it for sure.

Grognard

2012-06-09, 10:17 PM

I'm glad to hear it. However, every time I think up something that the LA could do as a alternate, I.E. removing their jet pack for another pack type or something.. I always come up with things that are already covered by the other classes such as minefield sweeping (Infil) etc. It's a toughy.

Well, I can think of one idea. Though, I am worried about offending too many sensibilities...

That said... If we are looking for synergy, we could make a few more grenade types available to the LA, perhaps even switching one or two from the Engineer, specifically the sticky bomb... Jump in, stick, jump out... Talk about synergy.

The concern for engineer is that he has too much on his plate, but I think they should have a lot of tools, as long as those tools are sensible for the class. I am, however, considering the Light Assault vs the Engineer as far as the secondary roll of "grenadier", which we do not have yet. Perhaps that is a role, that can be rolled, over to the LA?

Every class seems to have explosives, but what about the LA class having the established secondary roll of "grenadier"? It is certainly synergistic with the class' primary function... The LA / stickybomb combo is almost scary, but balance is doable. This can also take the pressure off the Engineer, and cement him/her into the other roles. The engineer has 5 types of explosives, every other class has 3. Why not switch this out to LA with 5, and Engineer with the most synergistic 3?

Im not pushing this, just Primary LA / Secondary Grenadier makes sense to me.

Edit: Changed "grenades" to "explosives" to make more sense.

Dagron

2012-06-09, 10:21 PM

Well, I can think of one idea. Though, I am worried about offending too many sensibilities...

That said... If we are looking for synergy, we could make a few more grenade types available to the LA, perhaps even switching one or two from the Engineer, specifically the sticky bomb... Jump in, stick, jump out... Talk about synergy.

The concern for engineer is that he has too much on his plate, but I think they should have a lot of tools, as long as those tools are sensible for the class. I am, however, considering the Light Assault vs the Engineer as far as the secondary roll of "grenadier", which we do not have yet. Perhaps that is a role, that can be rolled, over to the LA?

Every class seems to have explosives, but what about the LA class having the established secondary roll of "grenadier"? It is certainly synergistic with the class' primary function... The LA stickybomb combo is almost scary, but balance is doable. This can also take the pressure off the Engineer, and cement him/her into the other roles. The engineer has 5 types of grenades, every other class has 3. Why not switch this out to LA with 5, and Engineer with the most synergistic 3?

Im not pushing this, just Primary LA / Secondary Grenadier makes sense to me.

What you call sticky bombs is the C4? Because earlier i was thinking it was LA's only, but turns out it's an option to any class.

Anyway, i like the idea. Trading with engis the "grenadier" role for the "resupplier" role. Maybe even switching mine deployment of hands too. :p

Hmr85

2012-06-09, 10:22 PM

Knightwyvern

2012-06-09, 10:28 PM

Well, I can think of one idea. Though, I am worried about offending too many sensibilities...

That said... If we are looking for synergy, we could make a few more grenade types available to the LA, perhaps even switching one or two from the Engineer, specifically the sticky bomb... Jump in, stick, jump out... Talk about synergy.

The concern for engineer is that he has too much on his plate, but I think they should have a lot of tools, as long as those tools are sensible for the class. I am, however, considering the Light Assault vs the Engineer as far as the secondary roll of "grenadier", which we do not have yet. Perhaps that is a role, that can be rolled, over to the LA?

Every class seems to have explosives, but what about the LA class having the established secondary roll of "grenadier"? It is certainly synergistic with the class' primary function... The LA stickybomb combo is almost scary, but balance is doable. This can also take the pressure off the Engineer, and cement him/her into the other roles. The engineer has 5 types of grenades, every other class has 3. Why not switch this out to LA with 5, and Engineer with the most synergistic 3?

Im not pushing this, just Primary LA / Secondary Grenadier makes sense to me.

Sounds quite sensible, I'd be ok with this.

One thing that I just thought of.. we know grenades cost resources. Will this mean that playing as a LA as a grenadier will be much more resource intensive then other classes? Does this apply to ACE as well, and therefor making engineers a "costly" class to play as well in that role?

And on top of that, seeing as how consumables will cost resources, should they or should they not be replenished along with other weapon ammo? (mostly talking about grenades here, I don't think having ACE as a replenish-able item would be a very good thing.)

As far as mines go, I'm quite content with them being solidly in the Engineer camp. Mines are more of a defensive measure which I believe fits in with the Engineer much better than any other class.

Grognard

2012-06-09, 10:28 PM

What you call sticky bombs is the C4? Because earlier i was thinking it was LA's only, but turns out it's an option to any class.

Anyway, i like the idea. Trading with engis the "grenadier" role for the "resupplier" role. Maybe even switching mine deployment of hands too. :p

Nope, go here:
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=42395

C4 and Stickybombs(grenades) appear to be different things on the ENG list. ENG could keep the C4, and Stickies could switch to LA. Stickies seem more useful in a mobility mindset, since vehicles can get around so fast, and engineers may not have that luxury, due to supporting in place, ussually.

fod

2012-06-09, 10:38 PM

i voted engineer but after realizing he has the ammo deployable i just dont think we need droppable ammo packs at all
if you run out of ammo just go and find an engineers ammo deployable

Grognard

2012-06-09, 10:47 PM

i voted engineer but after realizing he has the ammo deployable i just dont think we need droppable ammo packs at all
if you run out of ammo just go and find an engineers ammo deployable

Well, I thought of the dropable version as the base class utility, that you get right out of the box. The ACE ammo dispenser is the cert tree evolution, of the same ability, so there is already class precedent for this to be the case. The ACE cert evolution pretty much makes it all moot once it arrives, however, only for that particular engineer. Unless/until all engineers get it.

Edit: After most/all engineers eventually got the ACE ammo dispenser variant in time, the "no one should have droppable boxes" sect would be satisfied too. It would be far less ubiquitous.

Grognard

2012-06-09, 10:52 PM

Sounds quite sensible, I'd be ok with this.

As far as mines go, I'm quite content with them being solidly in the Engineer camp. Mines are more of a defensive measure which I believe fits in with the Engineer much better than any other class.

100% agree, and Claymores scream engineer to me as well, its a mine too, albeit anti personnel. I wish I knew what a charger grenade was... if it was a mobility mindset item, we would have a likely, and final candidate to balance the books on a grenadier secondary role, for the LA class.

Knightwyvern

2012-06-09, 10:53 PM

100% agree, and Claymores scream engineer to me as well, its a mine too, albeit anti personnel. I wish I knew what a charger grenade was... if it was a mobility mindset item, we would have a likely, and final candidate to balance the books on a grenadier secondary role, for the LA class.

Think, Tesla grenade ;) http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=42502

Dagron

2012-06-09, 10:59 PM

Sounds quite sensible, I'd be ok with this.

One thing that I just thought of.. we know grenades cost resources. Will this mean that playing as a LA as a grenadier will be much more resource intensive then other classes? Does this apply to ACE as well, and therefor making engineers a "costly" class to play as well in that role?

And on top of that, seeing as how consumables will cost resources, should they or should they not be replenished along with other weapon ammo? (mostly talking about grenades here, I don't think having ACE as a replenish-able item would be a very good thing.)

As far as mines go, I'm quite content with them being solidly in the Engineer camp. Mines are more of a defensive measure which I believe fits in with the Engineer much better than any other class.

Fair enough. Though now that there is another thread discussing the LAs role, i guess we better leave this one just for ammo arguments. :p

i voted engineer but after realizing he has the ammo deployable i just dont think we need droppable ammo packs at all
if you run out of ammo just go and find an engineers ammo deployable

Well, I thought of the dropable version as the base class utility, that you get right out of the box. The ACE ammo dispenser is the cert tree evolution, of the same ability, so there is already class precedent for this to be the case. The ACE cert evolution pretty much makes it all moot once it arrives, however, only for that particular engineer. Unless/until all engineers get it.

Edit: After most/all engineers eventually got the ACE ammo dispenser variant in time, the "no one should have droppable boxes" sect would be satisfied too. It would be far less ubiquitous.

There's no reason the dispenser and a more mobile form of ammo drop couldn't be sidegrades to eachother, right?
Maybe the mobile one could have a larger cooldown on dispensing stuff.

Grognard

2012-06-09, 11:01 PM

Think, Tesla grenade ;) http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=42502

Oh ok, so its a jammer from PS1? Thats the impression Im getting. The INF has the EMP grenade, so Im still lost on the difference.

Knightwyvern

2012-06-09, 11:05 PM

Oh ok, so its a jammer from PS1? Thats the impression Im getting. The INF has the EMP grenade, so Im still lost on the difference.

Nope, it basically arcs out extremely strong electrical current into nearby enemies and fries them. :) Maybe it will have an EMP effect as well, or do more damage to shields than armor, etc

Grognard

2012-06-09, 11:14 PM

Nope, it basically arcs out extremely strong electrical current into nearby enemies and fries them. :) Maybe it will have an EMP effect as well, or do more damage to shields than armor, etc

Well damn, thats pretty badass.

fod

2012-06-09, 11:26 PM

There's no reason the dispenser and a more mobile form of ammo drop couldn't be sidegrades to eachother, right?
Maybe the mobile one could have a larger cooldown on dispensing stuff.

this is true :)
there could be a few "upgrades" for the ammo drop line if they wanted - like an ammo "aura" that refills nearby friends for a few seconds or the ability to order resupply drops from the air to locations on the map (kind of like in bf2)

Dagron

2012-06-09, 11:32 PM

there could be a few "upgrades" for the ammo drop line if they wanted - like an ammo "aura" that refills nearby friends for a few seconds or the ability to order resupply drops from the air to locations on the map (kind of like in bf2)

Mmm, the resupply aura might work.

One thing though: i'm not averse to supply drops, as long as the responsability doesn't fall on the leader cert tree... Leaders already have a lot of toys, not to mention they should worry about more important stuff (troop movements, air/orbital strikes, etc).

fod

2012-06-09, 11:44 PM

Mmm, the resupply aura might work.

One thing though: i'm not averse to supply drops, as long as the responsability doesn't fall on the leader cert tree... Leaders already have a lot of toys, not to mention they should worry about more important stuff (troop movements, air/orbital strikes, etc).

i was thinking of just having the supply drop as part of a cert tree or something like
ammo pack>ammo station>ammo aura?>supply drop?

either way i wasnt really serious about any of the suggestions i was just thinking out aloud (or more correctly thinking in words) that having a cert tree or sidegrades for the ammo could actually work quite well

Dagron

2012-06-09, 11:51 PM

I'm aware a lot of the stuff posted on forums is most of the time just people spitballing, i was just "voicing" a concern.
I didn't specifically say that was what you were suggesting, i just wanted to point out something that came to mind. :p

Vexus

2012-06-10, 12:43 AM

captainkapautz

2012-06-10, 12:49 AM

First post so please be gentle.

How effective would it be to grant xp for dropping ammo picked up by others in need, but zero xp for ammo that you picked up yourself?

I realize that 2 people could cross-supply one another to avoid that, but still they would at least be working as a 2 person team? Ideal? No. An improvement? Possibly I'd think.

What are your thoughts?

I sure as hell hope there is an xp-reward for dropping ammo, I mean there is for repairing/healing.

I also dislike the notion of giving the engineer the ammodrop, seeing as he already has shitloads of tools, i.e. explosives, mines, turrets, ammodispenser and, as I heard in the stream, droppable shieldbarriers as well.

Still voting for HA to get ammodrop.

Pyreal

2012-06-10, 12:54 AM

captainkapautz

2012-06-10, 01:04 AM

SoNaR

2012-06-10, 01:08 AM

Knightwyvern

2012-06-10, 01:11 AM

I sure as hell hope there is an xp-reward for dropping ammo, I mean there is for repairing/healing.

I also dislike the notion of giving the engineer the ammodrop, seeing as he already has shitloads of tools, i.e. explosives, mines, turrets, ammodispenser and, as I heard in the stream, droppable shieldbarriers as well.

Still voting for HA to get ammodrop.

I believe the point was that the Engineer already has ammo dispensing capability, so why give more to another class?

So I will get a class that will allow me to heal myself AND resupply myself?

Sign me up, need to push my KDR.

His considerable worth and weight being AV and AI?

Like the engineer, with his myriads of mines and AV/AI-turrets?
Or the MAX, with his HUGE FUCKIN GUNS?

I agree about the medic thing, not a good idea.

As for the second bit, I believe it's been said before; it's a bit of a fallacy from a team oriented perspective to give all the ammo to the guys who will need all the ammo.

Malorn

2012-06-10, 01:20 AM

I was one of the minority that voted for MAX to have the ammo. I think they fit best, and here's why.

1) The MAX is already a teamwork-dependent class, as they need engineers for heals, they are slow, and they can't capture anything without help. So giving the MAX ammo won't fundamentally unbalance them. They'll still need other players.

2) The MAX is a class that I don't think gets all that unbalanced by having more ammo. They aren't going to suddenly be lone wolves or have too much power.

3) They're kinda big, and I can imagine that bulky exosuit reasonably being used to carry extra supplies. Sorta like a big mule. Why would a soldier bear that weight when the MAX can bear it so much easier? So it makes reasonable sense to me.

4) It gives other classes a reason to want a max, moreso than just their ability to kill. A Heavy Assault can kill vehicles and infantry. And if MAX had ammo, a heavy assault would want a MAX and want to support a MAX because they got the precious ammo that the HA needs. Same with Engineers. If the engineer needs more mines or other deployables, makes sense to go to a MAX, who might need heals from the Engineer. There's good teamwork synergy there.

Engineers are already overloaded with support, same with Medics. Infiltrators are sort of in the same boat as Light Assault. So that really leaves MAX and HA. I think HA becomes less teamwork dependent if you give them Ammo. They become the jack-of-all-trades class, able to kill just about anything and have endless ammo for missile spam and suppressive fire. While they are also the LMG class so it kind of makes sense, I'd prefer the Ammo go to a different class because I think the HA should be dependent on the squad for Ammo and not be the new lone-wolf do-anything class.

So that leaves the MAX, and I think it fits.

captainkapautz

2012-06-10, 01:24 AM

As for the second bit, I believe it's been said before; it's a bit of a fallacy from a team oriented perspective to give all the ammo to the guys who will need all the ammo.

EVERYONE needs ammo, why this strange notion that HA needs ammo more then others?

Seeing as HA actually have the biggest mags from the get go, because drums, they themselves actually need it less then say a sniping infiltrator or an engineer.

Pepsi

2012-06-10, 01:32 AM

Just a question: is there a problem with removing the ammo kit and making people rely on the engineer and his ammo dispenser? Does the ammo dispenser have some kind of long cooldown or build time that makes it not viable as a mobile drop?

Malorn

2012-06-10, 01:35 AM

Nothing is wrong with an ammo dispenser, the question is whether it overloads the engineer with support functions or whether such a role might be more advantageous in another class.

I think both to be true, thus my vote for the MAX (post above has more details on that decision).

Vetto

2012-06-10, 02:34 AM

Knightwyvern

2012-06-10, 04:16 AM

EVERYONE needs ammo, why this strange notion that HA needs ammo more then others?

Seeing as HA actually have the biggest mags from the get go, because drums, they themselves actually need it less then say a sniping infiltrator or an engineer.

Firstly, people that have more ammo, tend to use more ammo.

Secondly, you're also forgetting the fact that LMG are only one of 3 weapons that the HA class uses; the other two being the actual Heavy Assault weapons (which will most likely have pretty small magazines) and AV/AA weapons. We all know how fast those tend to run out.

GhettoPrince

2012-06-10, 04:22 AM

I wish I could change my vote, you totally convinced me Medic needs this.

Engineer already has the vehicle repairs/MAX repairs ,(and may be able to Rez MAX players) plus all the base defense toys. Why does a guy who can drop automated turrets, manned turrets, shields and mines need to carry rifle clips? If he's using a rifle than something has gone terribly wrong.

Medic is the infantry support class and I think infantry resupply is part of their niche.

Immigrant

2012-06-10, 06:45 AM

Medic.

Why?

To make a true Support class by combining Medic and Resupply.

The Medic's MAIN focus on the battlefield is supporting their team.
The HA's MAIN focus is Assault.
The Engineer's MAIN focus is vehicle care and/or Defense.

A Medic is already playing with a goal of supporting his teammates, while the HA's goal is not.
A Medic is also on the front lines with the troopers, where Ammo and Health are needed the most.
An Engineer (in a support capacity) is more likely to be in a rear position with the vehicles (in a offensive situation). Most Engineers will be drivers/pilots and not serving in a support role.

Benefit to Support Players:

Dedicated Support classes are generally the least played classes. Most people don't want to help their teammates from a background position, they want to 'blow stuff up'.

This creates a class for those players who gravitate towards a support role, but may find themselves torn between Resupply and Medic. Combining these features will give this new Support class real worth on the battlefield

So I will get a class that will allow me to heal myself AND resupply myself?

Sign me up, need to push my KDR.

This (Kapautz quote) was the main concern that I had why I didn't support Medic for this role more seriously at the start and concentrated on HA tbh. Since the start of the thread I also realized that Engineer would be a bad choice even though I was pro them at the start. If you consider that healing is not that much important since there is "auto-heal" right now only although great feat Medics have in their pack is reviving players.

If we go by the notion that support class should have AP then it's definitely the Medic. Only other support class Engineer has a bunch more of stuff to do. They repair vehicles what is equal to healing, have turrets, mines, covers and who know what more in their bags. Adding ammo packs on top of all that would be too much imo.

Also if you consider that Engineer is the most suitable class for battle vehicles (most are two-seaters) they will make most of the population there (at least one guy 50%, and many dedicated single seaters will be Engies as well if the wish to repair their vehicle on their own), but if they are need on front lines that means that any good squad would need at least 2 Engies with them for Ammo supply thus making that class having to be the most abundant on the field at any given moment (2/10 or 20% what is more than 1/6 or 18%, And I think Engies should make less than 10% population on the direct front lines).

My final judgement - no to Super-Engies! MOAR power to the MEDIKZ! :rofl:

As for the combat classes if any of them should have AP I still support HAs for that role.

Xyntech

2012-06-10, 06:50 AM

NewSith

2012-06-10, 07:13 AM

I quote myself from the other thread.

I would actually love to see Ammo Packs for *tudum* MEDICS! I mean with all the info we have (as in "medics only own close range weaponry") it really seems as if medic is about to become 90% support class. So why not give medics an ability to give people some candy after healing them?

PS: Bear in mind that I was too lazy to read through any post other than OP, even the one above mine, so sorry if I missed anything.

No, what I mean is Ammo Boxes exclusively to a medic, along with his healgun. Why? Because in theory medics are the last line in the class offense line.

Here's the elaboration top = front:

MAX, Heavy Assault - hard hitting tough vanguard. Giving them ammo is not exactly a wise idea, because they're not designed for support, though they can drop ammo, because they'll be the first to enter fights, people will pick their ammo after them. Problem is - they'll be only throwing ammo for themselves, not the team.
Engineer - balanced offensive and defensive capabilities, alongside with being a pilot class basically.
Medic - Healer class, no matter how you look at it. If the CQB info about them is still correct, of course. If not, they go in line with Engies.
Infiltrator, Light Assault - two standalone classes, that are VERY bad choice for an ammo pack, because they will always be anywhere, BUT in the mob.

As you can see - the best choice for an ammo pack is either a medic or an engie. Assault can have it, but people playing HA are rarely people realising that they also have to support their teammates. Same thing you can see with support class in BF3, that has default LMG being more effective than assault rifles even at long range. The worst choice is obviously infil and LA, and I said why above.

Immigrant

2012-06-10, 07:23 AM

Well I had voted for engineer, and I still don't think that's a bad place to have it, but I like what Malorn said about MAXes. I don't think it would have been such a horrible thing if those MAXes who ran out of ammo in the E3 footage had been able to place some ammo and start shooting again. As long as the ammo drops are a resource that can be depleted, I think it would be balanced just fine.

It would be a slight nod back to PS1 as well, with MAXes carrying extra supplies such as medic and engi tool refills.

I must say I don't see the reasoning behind the MAX doing this role especially when you compare it to HA class - MAX probably has much more firepower, quite bigger ammo pool, significantly more HP and is less mobile. All the problems that are mentioned for HA being the AP carrier are multiplied in case of MAX unit. Honestly why on Earth would someone want a MAX to do this role?

GuyFawkes

2012-06-10, 07:51 AM

In end decided to go with engineer but I'd be happy with 'all' or 'none' to be added to the list .
Engineer just seems to fit . He/she's the one most likely to be there repairing Maxes and HA in the thick of . It's a balancing factor against just solo steamrolling maxes or HA and needing that squishy support with you for another reason. Light assault can always ping pong around to find an engineer , but not the other way around.
Maybe they let medics drop med packs around too .

IMMentat

2012-06-10, 08:51 AM

Why in god's name do half the people in this thread think that Assault classes should be used in a support role?!
:huh:

There are defined support classes, they are the ones that should be providing support. Other classes, particularly the Assault classes, should be reliant upon them. This fosters good teamplay.

Personally i think that way exactly because of the backwards thinking you followed the question with.

If half the classes are dedicated non-support then loads of players will shrug off support as "not my job" screwing over anyone thats willing to help but doesn't want to permenantly wipe the arse of some ungrateful SoB running and gunning and moaning about the lack of "support" as he runs face on into more enemies (Tribes Ascend - Technician players, my heart goes out to you).
Give everyone a small ability to help out their team/faction and they are better prepared to help out in more meaningful ways later. Like swapping class for a few minutes when in a pinch.

To the general population.
OTOH a lot of people seem hung up on the "infinite ammo" theory.
Who said anything about packs being unlimited?
For all we know that are 3 uses per spawn and the LA could have a fairly small ammo pool, 3 selfish ammo packs could only mean double what a HA would usually carry(for a bigegr gun), not that big a deal.

Also remember that the ENGINEERS will carry LIMITED number of ACE BLUEPRINTS and they will (probably) have access to A DISPENSER, not ammo-packs, so we may as well stop the drop-pack consideration for them (and modify the OP for anyone new to the argument), I don't see them getting a second function that replicates what they already have.
As for the "too much to do" argument I simply stare blankly and wonder what you are smoking, mines are not used once the enemy can shoot you while laying them, turrets take 1-2 seconds to drop, shields we have not seen yet, repairs shouldn't be a 24/7 occupation (only 1 class of 6 will be in need of these services). That leaves what? supressive fire and protecting the medics/deployables.

MEDICS could have 1-2 packs AS WELL as the LA keeping them (though what they would replace them with I do not know), probably hit warfront ammo saturation at this point.

Just because players have the tools it doesn't mean they can use all the tools all the time. We know this to be the case.

Electrofreak

2012-06-10, 09:04 AM

Personally i think that way exactly because of the backwards thinking you followed the question with.

If half the classes are dedicated non-support then loads of players will shrug off support as "not my job" screwing over anyone thats willing to help but doesn't want to permenantly wipe the arse of some ungrateful SoB running and gunning and moaning about the lack of "support" as he runs face on into more enemies (Tribes Ascend - Technician players, my heart goes out to you).
Give everyone a small ability to help out their team/faction and they are better prepared to help out in more meaningful ways later. Like swapping class for a few minutes when in a pinch.

OTOH a lot of people seem hung up on the "infinite ammo" theory.
Who said anything about packs being unlimited?
For all we know that are 3 uses per spawn and the LA could have a fairly small ammo pool, 3 selfish ammo packs could only mean double what a HA would usually carry(for a bigegr gun), not that big a deal.

Also remember that the ENGINEERS will carry LIMITED number of ACE BLUEPRINTS and they will (probably) have access to A DISPENSER, not ammo-packs, so we may as well stop the drop-pack consideration for them (and modify the OP for anyone new to the argument), I don't see them getting a second function that replicates what they already have.
As for the "too much to do" argument I simply stare blankly and wonder what you are smoking, mines are not used once the enemy can shoot you while laying them, turrets take 1-2 seconds to drop, shields we have not seen yet, repairs shouldn't be a 24/7 occupation (only 1 class of 6 will be in need of these services). That leaves what? supressive fire and protecting the medics/deployables.

MEDICS could have 1-2 packs AS WELL as the LA keeping them (though what they would replace them with I do not know), probably hit warfront ammo saturation at this point.

Just because players have the tools it doesn't mean they can use all the tools all the time. We know this to be the case.

It's hardly backwards thinking, it's about the role they are designed to play.

LA are virtually worthless indoors; they need room for maneuverability in combat. That's what they're designed for and that's what they excel at. If you make them ammo resuppliers, the role does not synergize with their outdoor shock trooper role. They are going to be up on the walltop fighting defenders or jumping onto rooftops to try to get a better vantage point, not following the heavy ammo-use classes like HA and MAX into the base to resupply them.

Suddenly LA has to choose between the role they were designed for and a secondary role that forces them to be less effective.

Do you think the majority of players are going to play LA because they can jetpack around the battlefield, or because they can lay ammo crates? And when those two roles conflict with one another, which role are they going to pick? I think we both know the answer to that.

For the record, I NEVER said Engineers have too much to do. It makes perfect sense for them to provide ammo resupply in some form.

Satexios

2012-06-10, 09:17 AM

Remove ammo packs, replace with engineer supply terminal cert = win.

At least in my humble opinion.

captainkapautz

2012-06-10, 10:39 AM

Firstly, people that have more ammo, tend to use more ammo.

Of course they are gonna use more ammo, BECAUSE they have more from the start.

Secondly, you're also forgetting the fact that LMG are only one of 3 weapons that the HA class uses; the other two being the actual Heavy Assault weapons (which will most likely have pretty small magazines) and AV/AA weapons.

It's either LMG+AV or HA, so I'd recon pretty even amounts of ammo for both.

And I highly doubt the MCG having a small magazine.

We all know how fast those tend to run out.

Uh, no, actually I don't know, enlighten me please.

What I do know from watching the stream is that, compared to the HA, LAs and Engineers ran out of ammo more frequently, because there was a distinct difference in ammo when one has 20-40 rounds per mag and the other has 75-100.

IMMentat

2012-06-10, 09:18 PM

What I do know from watching the stream is that, compared to the HA, LAs and Engineers ran out of ammo more frequently, because there was a distinct difference in ammo when one has 20-40 rounds per mag and the other has 75-100.

It is all down to spare ammo capacity rate of fire and who will be the meatshield. HA will have more AI ammo in-gun, maybe even more ammo spare.
But once the team-play starts they will also be the players at the frontline laying down the most bullets due to seeing more targets more often.

MAX suits will be behind or ahead of the HA depending on the nature of the fight, up front if needed to breach an area, supressive fire and flank control if in a more open area (due to the slower walk speed and more specialised weapon choices).
LA will be somewhere on a perch looking for weak/vunerable/support targets and supressing over aggressive enemies.
INFILTRATORS will be wherever they can get the range to aim (thatever weapon they have equipped) effectively.
MEDIC/ENGY players will be on the second line of assault, patching folks up, covering the flanks and keeping the team on its feet. So mixing up gunplay with support abilities.

I still consider MAX, Medic and LA to have valid reasons to carry limited supply ammo drops, but i can only think of a tweaked LA as having valid cause to have the ability. Engineer already getting the dispenser to drop-packs are a moot point there.

The MAX probably has the least cause for an ammo pack due to being a specialist target shredder, a boosted ammo pool on a max would have the most dangerous impace, even with only 1 ammo pack available between visits to a terminal.
The Medic would have a tough time choosing between ammo packs and one of the medic only ability (such as heal aura/grenades/med-app???)
With LA. You could drop their total spare ammo ammount, limit the number of packs available and then either LA need to stay within retreat/resupply distance of a friendly terminal/engineer to refresh packs or will have only a limited free-play time while acting independantly (win win IMO).

Inf shouldn't be calling attention to themselves.
HA have massive combat flexibility and sizable ammo pools (cept on the AV weapons), portable ammo packs would just let them find a quiet spot and farm till they are spent out (of ammo) 1-3 times over.

Khellendros

2012-06-11, 12:48 AM

My choice doesn't exist on that poll: none.

Engys have dispensers or w/e they're called. That ought to be enough.

Malorn

2012-06-11, 01:18 AM

My choice doesn't exist on that poll: none.

Engys have dispensers or w/e they're called. That ought to be enough.

There's no engi dispensers. Not yet anyway.

Ratstomper

2012-06-11, 01:26 AM

There's no engi dispensers. Not yet anyway.

http://tf2wiki.net/w/images/thumb/a/a6/Engiwithdispenser.png/250px-Engiwithdispenser.png

That Khellendros is a spah!

super pretendo

2012-06-11, 01:29 AM

Heavy Assault or engineer.

Nolerhn

2012-06-11, 01:46 AM

I haven't read through most of this thread. But I would like to add that I plan on playing both LA and engy's. In my humble opinion, I feel the ammo crate should stick with LA, since they're the most mobile class.

The way I personally envision playing the LA class, is to jump on top of structures and attack from strange angles that the enemy has a difficult time dealing with, but, when my squad calls for ammo, I'm not too far away and can jump back to where they are and resupply them.

It's difficult to explain to be honest. I'm a very support oriented person, if I were playing LA, I wouldn't want to be too far from my squad. Say they were trying to breach into the front entrance of a base, I may jump near to the rooftops/scaffolding/etc VERY near the front entrance and attack from the high ground there. BUT, when my squad needs ammo, I'm there, not very far away, to provide them with the support necessary to continue to fight.

I understand people's worries about lone wolves camping. But in all honesty, in a game where a battle could very literally be comprised of hundreds of players, just how survivable could one lone wolf be on the top of a structure resupplying himself?

As for myself wanting to play the engineer class, I can honestly say (the way I envision playing) if I'm not fortifying a position, then I'm in a vehicle. I don't see myself as an engy on the front lines dropping an ammo crate when I have all sorts of other ACE blueprints to play with.

exLupo

2012-06-11, 01:51 AM

I went with LA due to elimination. Here's my line of logic.

Who needs ammo? Anyone running out of ammo.

Whose ammo has the biggest bang/buck? MAX.
Self sustain on the strongest shooter is out.

Who already has a type of sustain? Medic.
Multiple sustain types synergize too well. See PS1. Medic is out.

Who of there remaining four play with others? Engi, LA and HA.
Infil is out. While sniping needs sustain, everyone does. Better to be with the group relevant classes.

Who are mobile and operate away from resources? LA and HA.
Engi would be more likely to be less mobile or tied to resources. The point of ammo packs is to resupply in the field. Engi making ammo is ok but that's not the point of ammo packs, separate issue.

That leaves LA and HA. To me, LA edges HA out because of the weakness of its armor and weapon. In a shooting brawl, HA will be the more potent unit both from output and survival standpoints. The concern that dropping ammo packs will lead players to solo is legitimate. However, if someone is going to be doing it, I'd rather it be the weaker unit. From the streams, LA seems to be limited less by its ammo and more by its lifespan. Increased ammo capacity would be helpful but camping with MA didn't look too impressive and there's no place one LA can get that another cannot follow.

To me, LA is the least worst option. 2142 has made me loathe unlimited ammo packs but if LA are limited to one or two, their loadouts can be lightly tuned to consider people using ammo for themselves only.

If I were to pick, I'd order it like this:
1) LA with 1 or 2 packs.
2) No packs.
Everything else.

Dagron

2012-06-11, 03:22 AM

This thread keeps going in circles because people get tired of arguing and leave, while new ones come along and start the lines of thought all over again.

sylphaen

2012-06-11, 04:34 AM

This thread keeps going in circles because people get tired of arguing and leave, while new ones come along and start the lines of thought all over again.

Welcome to PSU !

Not to mention all these threads will pop back up as new threads by new people after they'll have died down for a week or two.

If we did not keep talking like senile old men, the amount of threads would be quite lower.
:)

Edit: This thread still has a terrible poll setup for the lack of a "other" option, btw.

Kran De Loy

2012-06-11, 05:18 AM

This thread keeps going in circles because people get tired of arguing and leave, while new ones come along and start the lines of thought all over again.

Hahaha. :lol:

Yes. :sick:

Dagron

2012-06-11, 07:53 AM

Welcome to PSU !

Perhaps you should have said "welcome to any internet forums". :lol:

But i just pointed it out because it was making me sick to see people say over and over that engineers already do too much, LAs are losing something and getting nothing, engineers already have a dispenser, HAs would be the ones who needed ammo so giving it to them is the same as increasing their ammo, any assault class will hog it, support classes will be more inclined to hand them out, engineers already do too much, LAs are losing something and getting nothing, engineers already have a dispenser, HAs would be the ones who needed ammo so giving it to them is the same as increasing their ammo, any assault class will hog it, maybe we should give them to medics for no reason at all, support classes will be more inclined to hand them out, engineers already do too much, LAs are losing something and getting nothing, engineers already have a dispenser, HAs would be the ones who needed ammo so giving it to them is the same as increasing their ammo, any assault class will hog it, support classes will be more inclined to hand them out, blah blah dee blablablah...

I know it's no one's fault: who will read every argument in a 19 pages thread and keep their sanity? So everyone just skims at most and jumps to the last page to post their suggestions.

But it's still maddening to watch this kind of loop. :doh:

Gandhi

2012-06-11, 07:55 AM

I know it's no one's fault: who will read every argument in a 19 pages thread and keep their sanity? So everyone just skims at most and jump to the last page to post their suggestions.

But it's still maddening to watch this kind of loop. :doh:
And through it all there's only been one unwavering truth. THE POLL HAS SPOKEN :D

Mechzz

2012-06-11, 08:33 AM

And through it all there's only been one unwavering truth. THE POLL HAS SPOKEN :D

The poll is badly thought out and doesn't cover all the options.

For example, there is no option that says "any footsoldier can drop ammo only NOT for their own class"

And that option resolves all the issues imo. The poor old engy doesn't get the whole load of resupply to carry on his lonesome, the LA doesn't get to jetpack his ammo onto a roof and everyone gets to do a bit of support if they feel like it.

Dagron

2012-06-11, 08:42 AM

The poll is badly thought out and doesn't cover all the options.

For example, there is no option that says "any footsoldier can drop ammo only NOT for their own class"

And that option resolves all the issues imo. The poor old engy doesn't get the whole load of resupply to carry on his lonesome, the LA doesn't get to jetpack his ammo onto a roof and everyone gets to do a bit of support if they feel like it.

:lol: I even forgot about that one! It's been suggested before too... but i'm glad you brought it up again, as it was pretty much ignored last time. It shouldn't have been, as it does have it's merits.

Socks

2012-06-11, 08:45 AM

Nor really fond of the ammopack.
why not use (certain?) capturepoints for ammo inside the base and the sunderer/galaxy for ammo outside the base? Not sure if feasible though.

IMO LA isnt really the class for it, but it is the least worst. Its more of an engineer thing, but he has enough to do already with repairing/deploying stuff.

GhettoPrince

2012-06-11, 09:01 AM

Light Assault is mobile, they have the jetpack, their whole niche is that they can get above you / around you , fast. Not a support class

Engineer is more of a pilot class, they repair vehicles, drop base defense toys and shields and are the cool dudes of planetside.

Combat Medic heals and revives people.

CM can spec the heal gun to do slow damage over time to enemies, but every cert of that is a cert that isn't going into heals. Certs that could have gone into powerful vehicle and heavy weapons upgrades, and they have to have that heal tool out, a CM with a rifle is just a gimped LA

Seriously, medic is the infantry support class, not only should they have spare ammo, but I can totally see them speccing into a deployable supply thing.

These front line guys?
http://i.imgur.com/pnbBq.jpg

Shouldn't resupply themselves, if they are cut off from their squad than they should be in trouble!