How do you feel about the current TTK?

[cryosin]

TTK stands for Time to Kill. Basically, its how long the average gun is going to take to kill someone.

I'm mainly discussing Infantry TTK here, since i feel vehicles are still being worked on.

The question i have is this... do you like the current TTK and if not how should it feel?

I'll compile a list of games and my feelings of TTK:
5 Planetside
4 Halo
3 Planetside 2
2 Battlefield
1 Call of Duty

Planetside is obviously the longest TTK, with Halo following closely. It takes focus firing and some great nade timings to kill someone quickly in Halo.
Battlefield is pretty fast, but the guns have a lot of recoil and the battlefield is large.
Call of duty is quite clearly the fastest TTK, which in my opinion makes for terrible gameplay. It's just who sees who first.

I put planetside 2 below Halo because it feels like you die somewhat quickly. Although right now it may look like players aren't dying that fast, once people get a feel for recoil and leading in the kills are going to be much faster. In the scale i saw at the E3 demo, the TTK felt reasonable, but there is a reason Planetside 1 had such a long TTK:
So many people shooting.

I am scared that large scale battles won't allow you to even peep your head out of a window. I would like to be able to retreat and peek my head out to kill someone every once in a while.

What do you guys think about the current TTK?

[ArmedZealot]

Oh god.

[Stardouser]

low for LA vs LA, and vehicles.

Others may be ok.

[Greeniegriz]

Ttk appeared to be quick however, I think its best to wait until closed beta.

Doesn't mean we can't discuss it though.

Cheers,

GG

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Espion]

It'll probably be lengthened in beta when groups of skilled players are too dominant together.

The TTK in a PS1 lag-free environment was fine, but people mostly only remember what it became after lag dominated the game. A 1s TTK with HA vs rexo is not a long TTK at all, and shouldn't have been shorted as much as it is atm. I really don't even think a TTK this short will even work gameplay-wise with the amount of people that are going to be in the fight.

[cryosin]

Ttk appeared to be quick however, I think its best to wait until closed beta.

Doesn't mean we can't discuss it though.

Cheers,

GG

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

I originally wasn't going to make a thread until beta, but I felt it was an okay question to ask. Specifically, how the community felt.

I think TTK is actually one of the key balancing acts in a game. If the TTK is too long, players get frustrated because its too hard to kill.

If TTK is too short, you die alot. Respawning over and over is not very exciting.

I feel games like Counter-Strike had such a great lifespan because they really got the TTK right. With that said, its different for every game. A counter-strike TTK would not work in planetside.

So i think its a valid point to discuss with the community. In particular, what scale of TTK they would want.

[PsychoXR-20]

Maybe it was just a result of the stream, but it felt way way way way too fast. Vehicles were getting two shot, infantry were dying before they had a chance to react.

They said they wanted a pace between PS1 and Battlefield (which Battlefield by the way? Some of them are way faster than others) but the streams seemed like it was faster than even CoD. Now I know balancing isnt a concern until beta, but the devs must have a general idea of how fast they want the game, and currently its just overkill.

Combine the TTK right now times 1,000 people, nothing will ever get done. You'll spawn, walk outside and die. Rinse, repeat ad infinitum. That's not fun gameplay.

Because of the scale of PlanetSide it REQUIRES a slower paced game with a longer TTK.

[Rumblepit]

im a fan of fast ttk but i will have to see its effects on a large scale before i can judge anything

[captainkapautz]

Looks fine.

Will judge more in beta.

[Greeniegriz]

So i think its a valid point to discuss with the community. In particular, what scale of TTK they would want.

I totally agree its worth discussing.

It certainly needs to be balanced correctly, which I know it will be.

So, basing off the e3 and other streams, I'd say it appears quicker than it should be.

Cheers,

GG


Sent from here using Tapatalk 2

[ikon]

i really like where they are at.

but id love to see them lengthened a bit in beta to see how it works out.

[Rexdezi]

as long as a sniper can one shot a HA if he gets him in the head im ok with how it looked in beta

[Stardouser]

I totally agree its worth discussing.

It certainly needs to be balanced correctly, which I know it will be.

So, basing off the e3 and other streams, I'd say it appears quicker than it should be.

Cheers,

GG


Sent from here using Tapatalk 2

It depends heavily on who gets into the early sections of beta, and how early they start looking heavily at other-than-bug feedback. It would be quite easy for the first wave of 200 to all be a combination of low TTK lovers, "the devs know what they are doing" people, and various others that would rubber-stamp what we've got right now.

[Greeniegriz]

It depends heavily on who gets into the early sections of beta, and how early they start looking heavily at other-than-bug feedback. It would be quite easy for the first wave of 200 to all be a combination of low TTK lovers, "the devs know what they are doing" people, and various others that would rubber-stamp what we've got right now.

To right. So much depends on so many things.

Safe to say the ttk will never be right for everyone.

Cheers.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Saintlycow]

needs to be slighty higher for infantry combat, and vehicles should take longer to kill

[Knightwyvern]

To right. So much depends on so many things.

Safe to say the ttk will never be right for everyone.

Cheers.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

Very true.

However I personally would enjoy a slightly higher TTK, maybe 10-15%?

Then again, a Gauss Rifle in PS2 seems to fire (on average) about twice as fast as it did in PS1. The GR looks to me to be very close to the Cycler in terms of ROF; previously, a gauss would be obviously much slower firing with much more damage; the differences seemed to be more pronounced in PS1. Might this have something to do with the current TTK?

[Greeniegriz]

Very true.

However I personally would enjoy a slightly higher TTK, maybe 10-15%?

Then again, a Gauss Rifle in PS2 seems to fire (on average) about twice as fast as it did in PS1. The GR looks to me to be very close to the Cycler in terms of ROF; previously, a gauss would be obviously much slower firing with much more damage; the differences seemed to be more pronounced in PS1. Might this have something to do with the current TTK?

Oh sure, that is certainly effecting ttk. Theyll need to adjust one or all: ROF, damage per shot, player health/shield and mitigation.

Gauss definitely needs lower ROF.

Cheers.


Sent from Auraxis using Tapatalk 2

[Bags]

Soldier and vehicle TTK is too fast for the size of the fights. Hopefully 4 shotting vehicles was only for GDC.

[Biohazard]

I think the TTK was so high in Planetside one because of networking issues. I think the recent decrease in TTK of modern games is due the maturation of the internet. The gaming community exploring how fast is fast enough, now that we have the speed and bandwidth to support fast pace combat.
That being said, I believe the TTK in planetside 2 is a little bit too long but still sits at the edge of my TTK 'butter-zone'

[Hmr85]

I feel the TTK on infantry and vehicles is to fast. They need to bump it up a tad more. You shouldn't be able to destroy a Vanguard in 2 hits..

[Knightwyvern]

Oh sure, that is certainly effecting ttk. Theyll need to adjust one or all: ROF, damage per shot, player health/shield and mitigation.

Gauss definitely needs lower ROF.

Cheers.


Sent from Auraxis using Tapatalk 2

I really hope they do. I want my Gauss rifle to feel more like a Bolter from WH40k than a slightly beefier cycler. I mean, the design of the PS2 GR was (IMO) influenced heavily by Bolters, just look at the SMG variations. This is a good thing! I just wish the actual feel of them was as close to a bolter as the aesthetic is.

I believe it's true that part of the high TTK is PS was the network issues, but just because we CAN have a much lower TTK now, doesn't necessarily mean we SHOULD.

[RNFB]

It's certainly going to be much too fast. Getting shot at by one guy brings you down fast... I would hate to see how fast you would go down getting shot at by 2 or more.

[NCLynx]

I wish the TTK were a little higher but at the same time with how much the guns may change in beta I might be asking for a lower TTK by the time it's all done.

[Chinchy]

It's certainly going to be much too fast. Getting shot at by one guy brings you down fast... I would hate to see how fast you would go down getting shot at by 2 or more.

You need to remember we haven't seen all the add ons and MAX abilities yet. For all we know maxes could be able to Cert into line breaking giving them almost an invincible armour plate on the front not to mention HA might be able to Cert into having a shield that protects against more oncoming damage. I personally like Medium TTKs and would prefer for them to stay where they are.

[Revanmug]

If we only talk about infantry vs infantry...

It seems fine to me. Never been the greatest fan for very very long ttk when you have this style of fps. If I place my aim on your head or upper torso and control my weapon, I expect the person to go down quickly. Giving 30 ammo in a magasine but needing 20 hits to kill someone is kind of stupid nor make sense in my head. It just become a game of who who got the largest magasine.
I love Tribe and UT and these kind of game but these are a very different aka faster movement and no ADS and usually, way WAY closer fights.

Thing to remember about PS2 right now : Soldier got a combo of shield that regen "fast" and a possibility of also health regen. That also can make quite a difference if people aren't just charging around to death and an actual front is there on the battlefield. Medic health "grenade" could also make quite a difference.

If I was in beta though, I would be certain if I stand by ok, shorter or longer ttk but it ain't the case : /

Tank well, I really didn't see much in the stream to make a conclusion. Remember that tank are alot weaker in the back than up front. How much well, I can't tell.

Same with aircraft but I wouldn't be too fond of solid aircraft. Reaver and the like should be about avoiding damage and not taking it and so in the end, I rather have them quite weak health wise. Gal and liberator are different mather

Again... beta

[Goku]

TTK is the one thing I'm waiting for on beta. We can play the numbers game now, but until I experience it I'm not going to sway either way.

[fod]

i would definitely prefer a longer ttk compared to what we saw in TB's videos
imo since games started going with shorter TTK's lately they have started to suck

[Dairian]

It seems the length of the TTK can change the game play in a larger way than most people conceive. A short TTK feels justifying for the person that gets the jump on someone or has the best ping. They see you first you die first.

There is awful player camping in a corner of a room around a terminal. Here you are a 4 year vet going from room to room scanning for the enemy. But the camped player has his ridicule set on the corner of the door before you walk in. He puts 2 rounds in your chest before you can even scan the room. You drop dead!

But a longer TTK tells a different story. The same awful player is camping in the same place. You walk though the door. He puts 2 rounds in you. You run for cover as he unloads the rest of his mag. Bullet holes fill the wall behind you. But you survive and take cover. You survey the room within seconds. Flanking him using objects in the room as cover. This time you get the jump on him. You fire keeping your crosshair dead center of his mass, as the both of you ADAD trying to confuse the other. To bad he didn't have the skill to do the same.

I guess it just matters if you like skill based shooters for snap based. I lean towards the skill based like PS1 myself. But everyone has there skills.

[Revanmug]

It seems the length of the TTK can change the game play in a larger way than most people conceive. A short TTK feels justifying for the person that gets the jump on someone or has the best ping. They see you first you die first.

There is awful player camping in a corner of a room around a terminal. Here you are a 4 year vet going from room to room scanning for the enemy. But the camped player has his ridicule set on the corner of the door before you walk in. He puts 2 rounds in your chest before you can even scan the room. You drop dead!

But a longer TTK tells a different story. The same awful player is camping in the same place. You walk though the door. He puts 2 rounds in you. You run for cover as he unloads the rest of his mag. Bullet holes fill the wall behind you. But you survive and take cover. You survey the room within seconds. Flanking him using objects in the room as cover. This time you get the jump on him. You fire keeping your crosshair dead center of his mass, as the both of you ADAD trying to confuse the other. To bad he didn't have the skill to do the same.

I guess it just matters if you like skill based shooters for snap based. I lean towards the skill based like PS1 myself. But everyone has there skills.

From the Stream, it took more than 2 bullet to kill someone. Your skill veteran stood in the doorway long enough your "noob", that found a good spot to defend his terminal, to kill him. In the end, you skill veteran was quite blind for never seeing your noob in a close quarter area and/or the noob found the greatest defence point. Not sure your veteran is "that" skill now...

You would have a point if you had Arma/bf3 HC kind of damage but it wasn't the case in the stream. The ttk was low but not that low. Also, let's not forget there is a difference between light, medium, heavy armor and well... max unit. Light armor will have a disavantage in a close area no mather what.

And yes, ping does make a difference and I don't plan on playing if the server are set up too far away (over 100 ping). But in reality, if you fight another player of same lvl skill and using your exemple, he is still going to win if his latency is alot lower. OR if the game is using a bad client side netcode, Higher ping could give you the advantage! Anyway, higher ttk isn't going to change the result.

[Dairian]

From the Stream, it took more than 2 bullet to kill someone. Your skill veteran stood in the doorway long enough your "noob", that found a good spot to defend his terminal, to kill him. In the end, you skill veteran was quite blind for never seeing your noob in a close quarter area and/or the noob found the greatest defence point. Not sure your veteran is "that" skill now...

You would have a point if you had Arma/bf3 HC kind of damage but it wasn't the case in the stream. The ttk was low but not that low. Also, let's not forget there is a difference between light, medium, heavy armor and well... max unit. Light armor will have a disavantage in a close area no mather what.

And yes, ping does make a difference and I don't plan on playing if the server are set up too far away (over 100 ping). But in reality, if you fight another player of same lvl skill and using your exemple, he is still going to win if his latency is alot lower. OR if the game is using a bad client side netcode, Higher ping could give you the advantage! Anyway, higher ttk isn't going to change the result.


I am sure I was making a generalization of short and long TTK. I didn't say anything about the stream.

Longer TTK gives anyone skilled or not the ability to use more than a snapshot. And actually hold a bead to kill someone.

[Stew]

the ttk seams effcient and rewarding i think i will not like to see it change thats much depending on weapon and cert BETA will told us thats but so far the TTK seams ok to me

[Stew]

to long TTK also lead to the numbers = wins and i think we must avoid this as most as possible in a game where you can be only 30 people defending agains 100 with a high ttk you have no chance even if your a really high skills player !

i think thats ttk and headshot bonus must split awesome player from garbage in huge outfit players count unfair battle with low ttk you vae a chance to push back those noobs zerg ! High ttk = hopeless in this situation and will ruins the game

numbers dont have to be everything and in a game with planetside2 scales the ttk have to be low not to low but low and the headshot multiplier have to make the psplit beeetween awesome and crappy players !

Also having to reload 3 time to kill one guys simply isnt satisfaying its stupid and creat the worst gameplay experience ever !

[Revelator]

I scrapped this whole big thing that compared a good area of damage between BF3(relatively low TTK) and Planetside 1(much higher TTK) but then I thought, hmm, well this is a new game, there are also so many things to take into account such as: Armor, Shields, Classes, Weapons, etc, and etc. Too much to take into account with actually seeing what I have before me, so all I will say is: This game takes place story-wise in the future, that means Armor, and shield will be designed to stop bullets, but also that bullets will be designed to penetrate armor and shield(quality vs lack of quality bullets is another thing to take into effect, not to mention how the VS uses energy weapons) I think its just gonna have to be one of those things where they go in an look at each and every thing(esp with hit-boxes.) Needless to say I think it should be a lower TTK, enough that it feels more real, than arcade.

[xcel]

From what I saw at E3, it seemed like the TTK was a little low for my taste. I would prefer a halo ttk, or at least something slightly higher.

I honestly despise the *whoever sees who first generally gets the kill* style gameplay. This is mainly why I find cod so frustrating. Give the players a chance to retaliate!

[Knightwyvern]

From what I saw at E3, it seemed like the TTK was a little low for my taste. I would prefer a halo ttk, or at least something slightly higher.

I honestly despise the *whoever sees who first generally gets the kill* style gameplay. This is mainly why I find cod so frustrating. Give the players a chance to retaliate!

I agree. It's balanced by the fact that if you do let that sniper line up a headshot or let that cloaker sneak up behind you with a shotgun, it's your fault. :P

[Bags]

Infantry TTK didn't look as awful as I was expecting, knowing they're deliberately making the game more Battlefield-like. Except for the light assault maybe, but that's hard to judge before having seen it in the hands of a good player. I'm not ok with insta-kill headshots, I just know people are going to be jackasses with it indoors.

The main thing you want to avoid is "whoever see the other guy first wins", not because I think there's no skill in that kind of gameplay, but because I find it ridiculously boring. I tried Battlefield 3 the other day, and it boggles my mind that people can enjoy that shit.

Vehicle TTK, especially tanks, is pathetically low. If that doesn't get sorted out I'll probably be done with the game really fast.

I saw heavy assaults being killed before they (or anyone in their shoes) could react.

No bueno.

[Revanmug]

I am sure I was making a generalization of short and long TTK. I didn't say anything about the stream.

Longer TTK gives anyone skilled or not the ability to use more than a snapshot. And actually hold a bead to kill someone.

Very true but it doesn't change his fate. The first player that start is going to win if both of them be on the same lvl skill wise. It is nothing more but a "at least I whack him down a bit". Escaping is not an option as the ttk right now is high enough to permit it (for your door exemple). A too high ttk would permit error like going in area without cover before checking for enemy since the player could just run all the way back and wait, surviving his mistake. That sound quite like lowering the skill floor! In other words, both opposite are bad.

Does no one remember the UT instagib? That was always quite popular and the most skilled player was assure to be at the top even though is was the lowest ttk possible. Then again, it was a railgun and movement were faster making hits a little harder.

I still think ttk doesn't affect "too much" skill base game. In the stream, it wasn't soo short that you couldn't answer back (except if you are in the middle of nowhere). The mechanic involved in this game is what might change the skill floor.

EDIT:
I saw heavy assaults being killed before they (or anyone in their shoes) could react.

No bueno.

Care to say when? I would be curious to see. Way too many hour of stream to recheck.

[TheInferno]

I have no clue, since I never played Planetside.

Elfailio brings up a point, though... not only were these guys relatively new gameplay wise, they weren't using their abilities well. I never saw any use of a MAX ability period, and the Heavy Assault shield wasn't used much.

The shield, from what I gathered from the stream, really lets you take one heck of a pounding, even from a tank, to allow you to get those crucial shots off. Until we see how abilities like that affect the game balance, we can't make more than a relative guess at how things should be.

Then again, the only thing people have been doing is making relative guesses, so *shrug*

[LPRaver]

Id like to play the beta before I make a judgement on the TTK on Planetside 2 but I hope they do not make it as long as Planetside. I was a casual player back when the game came out do to having a crappy computer that could barely play it.

However much I love the game and cant wait for the second I always had a really hard time killing anyone in Planetside. I am pretty good at shooters and I found it so frustrating that it was so hard to kill people. I always had a blast when playing but always had very low kills and sometimes after hours of playing never had one kill to show for it.

For that reason I think id like to see it around the E3 footage level. Some minor tweaking is always important but I hope it does not go back to the level that the original Planetside had.

[Vexus]

As a long time FPS player but new to Planetside, I think that a longer TTK number is better.

The trend has been to shorten the TTK from the early days of DooM/Quake etc. No doubt quick kills happened and were fun, but to me the most enjoyable combat was the longer combat that allowed for movement, LOS and and positioning to have a greater part in the outcome of the fight.

With the truly massive nature of Planetside 2, damage will be coming from a myriad of directions and sources. So, I would even be happier with a longer TTK if the new FPS converts would accept it. Given that the current PS2 TTK is the longest, I'm happy where it's at. But, if given my preference, I would even extend it a bit more.

[Malorn]

Seems too fast to me. Maybe about 30% slower would be about right, which could be achieved by a damage reduction across the board.

[Verruna]

It doesn't change his fate? No, not when you're talking about bots that always hit the same amount of bullets. But we aren't averages. The whole point is to differentiate good from bad players, and one way to do so is by aim. When you die before you can fight back, that element is removed. What remains is making sure you see the other guy first, which tends to boil down to camping chokepoints and popular routes to objectives.

I mostly agree with this. In PS1, consistent aiming felt more skill based than twitch shots like in some other fps.

My general feeling is TTK is a bit low in the e3 footage, but not by TOO much. Its a completely different game than PS1 on many levels and might be balanced out considering all the different classes and abilities. Hell, it may even become more tactical in the basic how a squad approaches a position.

[raidyr]

TTK seems a bit too low from the E3 footage but I'd have to play it to give real feedback.

If it does end up being too low, globally reducing damage shouldn't be too difficult; BF3 did it between alpha and beta.

[Zhane]

It depends heavily on who gets into the early sections of beta, and how early they start looking heavily at other-than-bug feedback. It would be quite easy for the first wave of 200 to all be a combination of low TTK lovers, "the devs know what they are doing" people, and various others that would rubber-stamp what we've got right now.

Uh. Of course the devs know what they're doing - that's why they are professional game developers and not armchair forum jockeys. Whether everyone agrees with what they do is another matter, but to question whether they know "what they are doing" lacks tact and common sense.

[wraithverge]

Things to note about planetside, this is not CoD, this is not BF3, you are assaulting specific points and knowing where someone is going to be coming from should give you a huge advantage, likewise, knowing where defenders camp should do the same, send in one scout to spot them all and you can see them through walls.

This is not a roving kill game, this is a strategic tactical game. I think the TTK is a fraction of a second too high, but the players I were watching were not amazing. I believe we will have to wait for beta before even speculating as we have no idea how organized groups will play, the people in the beta were disorganized at best, they didn't send in LA to scout and spot, they didn't follow up with a wave of HA/MAX and medics/engies backing them, nor did they stay long enough for a medic to revive after the room was swept. After a couple weeks when people start using the involved and heavy tactics, then this can be re-evaluated, until then I think it's as close to perfect as it's going to get.

[The Kush]

Planetside or Halo if not even slower

[Verruna]

@Elf, forgive me if i'm just derping as its late - but your general mindset is around not diminishing the importance of aiming and the ability to have a chance to fight back even if an enemy spots you first no? (among some other things) I don't see anything in your posts i don't generally agree with.

A slightly lower TTK (slightly more durable soldier) would only serve to expand more skilled players that can consistently lead and aim in infantry combat while not diminishing other mindsets or play styles. Making aiming more important in short, and twitch reaction headshots less dominating.

[Ironside]

From what i've seen so far it needs tweaking, beta will tell us more

[Revanmug]

This is wrong on so many levels.

It doesn't change his fate? No, not when you're talking about bots that always hit the same amount of bullets. But we aren't averages. The whole point is to differentiate good from bad players, and one way to do so is by aim. When you die before you can fight back, that element is removed. What remains is making sure you see the other guy first, which tends to boil down to camping chokepoints and popular routes to objectives.

I get that really. I don't think close to instant death ttk would be fine but I have no problem a game where having skill is a mix of aiming and vision aka awereness. Obliviously, the latter must be harder to master since every game need an directional indicator to realise where the shots came from, 2d and now 3d spotting.

Second, it wouldn't "permit" that at all. It is always permitted. Whether it is always wise, is something players have to decide for themselves by trying to predict the movement of enemy players. Permission of errors is not a gamedesign flaw - it's a necessity for competition. If it was impossible to commits errors, everyone would be equally strong.

Didn't you just said that all that mather was aim? Except of course if you admit above average have a close to the same aim, few would be as equally strong.

Awereness, ever heard of that? I hope so because most fps require some of it though it seems you disagree. Permitting mistake just mean you lower the skill floor not the opposite. Competition is about making the least mistake that would put you in disavantage and exploit evey possible advantage and not: "Hey guys, didn't saw that grenade but no worry, it barely touch my health". It is pretty much the same as running in the middle of no-where, being hit by someone in a better position, run all the way back while being shot and tell yourself :"alright, as soon as my health is back, I'll shoot that player back if is retard enough to stick in 1 place". Add 100+ player to this, mechanics to help you find your enemy ala 2d/3d spotting because seeing people is soo hard and battles are going to be sooo amusing...

UT instagib had the best players at the top. So does Battlefield. So does call of Duty. Of course they're going to end up on top...they're the best players. Good players tend to be good in all games they play if they manage to get into the flow.

In other words, since we are all above average player, we will be able to adapt and be top of our team whatever we have low or high ttk. Thanks for proving my point.


Hitting people with the shock rifle beam was ridiculously easy compared to some of the other weapons that game had; it was hitscan, there was no firing delay, and the ROF was quite ridiculous.

The reason instagib was popular was because it was low-entry. Everyone could be a star, nobody would feel as completely humiliated as they would have had they played a much better player in an actual duel, involving pick-up timing, weapon switching, map knowledge, and all the other elements that instagib didn't have. A bad player could still get kills in instagib. In a real game, they'd be completely slaughtered. Every twitch FPS with instagib has shown this.

mmm, maybe. Low entry? Quite logic really. Get kill a few time by pug luck? Surely but why would I care as long as I'm close to the top and so, win? To be fair, the idea for instant gib was just to prove that as long as your are better, you will be on the top and you did agree with this.

[Virulence]

It's a matter of perception. Bad play is bad play regardless of TTK. The difference is that a higher TTK lets you feel more like you're doing something if you're playing badly compared to a low TTK, where you just get shot and immediately die.

Regardless of TTK, if you get outflanked and shot in the back, you're going to be at an enormous disadvantage that's extremely difficult if not impossible to surmount. Positioning yourself well, knowing the terrain, and being aware of your surrounding area is what's going to define a good player in Planetside 2.

[OutlawDr]

Seemed about right honestly. I wanted something a bit faster than PS, but its still noticeably slower than CoD/BF.

[Bags]

Seemed about right honestly. I wanted something a bit faster than PS, but its still noticeably slower than CoD/BF.

No, it's a lot faster than BF3. In BF3 I almost always have time to react, I rarely saw that at E3. Even heavy assault dropped like a rock to small arms fire.

[qbert2]

For me it depends on the netcode. Higher quality netcode allows for a bit faster TTK. However, I would prefer that it lean towards having a higher TTK than BF3. BF3 TTK is a bit quick and its poor netcode doesn't do it many favors.

[goneglockin]

to long TTK also lead to the numbers = wins and i think we must avoid this as most as possible


This is true.

Besides, it looks like the average times are slow enough that you will have a chance to react after being pinged a few times at a distance.

In close quarters, with your back turned, you really don't deserve a chance to recover. This should also keep the choke points from building up like they used to and the boring spam fights that ensued.

[deltase]

For me it seems it's too fast. Imagine if there were 300+ players on that base. You would have died in the second, when not behind cover.

[Bags]

For me it seems it's too fast. Imagine if there were 300+ players on that base. You would have died in the second, when not behind cover.

People did die in under a second with light arms fire...

[goneglockin]

People did die in under a second with light arms fire...

Probably the ones who were already damaged, sitting around at the e3 booth scratching their ass waiting for health to regen. *shrugs* Should've moved. I saw more than a handful of instances where people got pinged a bit and kept on going. If it's not a guaranteed insta-gib at greater than 20 feet, good enough for me.

[ThermalReaper]

It's fine. Not so fast to the point that you can spend a buttload of minutes getting somewhere and then get killed by 3 or 5 boolets or tank everyone like you are under soft rain.

[Bags]

Probably the ones who were already damaged, sitting around at the e3 booth scratching their ass waiting for health to regen. *shrugs* Should've moved. I saw more than a handful of instances where people got pinged a bit and kept on going. If it's not a guaranteed insta-gib at greater than 20 feet, good enough for me.

But this was with a smallscale fight, with people who can't aim due to being new, or because of the unfamiliar PC setup. Heavy assaults were dropping in under a second to light assault fire; in situations that NO ONE would have the reaction time to respond in.

Imagine when people get their hands on it and become more experienced and have a familiar setup, and with 3x the players. TTK will be insanely low.

It's fine. Not so fast to the point that you can spend a buttload of minutes getting somewhere and then get killed by 3 or 5 boolets or tank everyone like you are under soft rain.

Except people were dying in 3 - 5 bullets.

[ThermalReaper]

Are you sure bags? Prime example of this was the Vanu engineer who deployed a turret in a TR base with two MAXs. Someone took 8 or more turret shots to die.
Guess I'll have to retwatch it. But yeah, as Green said, we will have to wait for the beta to be 100% sure.

[Bags]

Are you sure bags? Prime example of this was the Vanu engineer who deployed a turret in a TR base with two MAXs. Someone took 8 or more turret shots to die.
Guess I'll have to retwatch it. But yeah, as Green said, we will have to wait for the beta to be 100% sure.

Planetside 2 E3 Stream - Day 1 - Part 1 (feat. Totalbiscuit and Margaret Krohn) - YouTube

at 37:52 - 38:00 watch the heavy assault, he is 2 shotted by a medic. Total time to kill is about a second.

[goneglockin]

But this was with a smallscale fight, with people who can't aim due to being new, or because of the unfamiliar PC setup. Heavy assaults were dropping in under a second to light assault fire; in situations that NO ONE would have the reaction time to respond in.


But what do you really know about what you saw? I saw plenty of people who did not die in less than a second, and that means the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[ThermalReaper]

Do'h. Maybe he got Headshotted?
But I could have sworn other medics and engineers took longer to kill people in day 3.

[Bags]

Do'h. Maybe he got Headshotted?
But I could have sworn other medics and engineers took longer to kill people in day 3.

Two headshots are not hard to get in slow paced games like BF3 and PS2. If you can two shot people like that then the TTK will be much too fast.

[Bags]

But what do you really know about what you saw? I saw plenty of people who did not die in less than a second, and that means the truth is somewhere in the middle.

No, that just means people can't aim. 90% of the people can't aim who were playing, even if to no fault of their own (hell, hard to play standing up on my home pc!). And yet people dropped in half a second a lot. Imagine it with halfway decent play.

[ThermalReaper]

You have a point there. It's good that you noted it so they would have time to fix in beta. But other than that I don't remember people dying that fast on full health. Unless there were some in Day 2, I missed that. :(

[goneglockin]

at 37:52 - 38:00 watch the heavy assault, he is 2 shotted by a medic. Total time to kill is about a second.

That's a light assault getting shot in the head.

[Bags]

That's a light assault getting shot in the head.

How does a light assault have the LMG pulsar with a 75 shot clip? :confused: Along with no jump jet, and the HA shield power.

[goneglockin]

How does a light assault have the LMG pulsar with a 75 shot clip? :confused: Along with no jump jet, and the HA shield power.

It says light assault right before he spawns. He uses the jump jets like a minute later on next spawn, same gear.

PS:

His health bar is at a sliver and says "warning." It must be a cut in the video. Anyway, this is what I'm saying. If you didn't play it, you don't know. Truth is in the middle.

[Bags]

It says light assault right before he spawns. He uses the jump jets like a minute later on next spawn, same gear.

But he has a HA only weapon and a HA special ability. They switched POVs. Look in the right hand corner of the guy dying.

10 seconds later he switches to light assault from HA!

http://i.imgur.com/Icdp1.png

[Gandhi]

I wouldn't mind some more restrictions on what can headshot. I saw some AA MAXs getting headshots... that's ridiculous, and like Bags says getting headshots in a game with longer TTK like this one isn't very hard. I think we'll all experience the consequences of this in the beta, and they won't be pretty. But if you all really want to keep it I won't complain, the TR's high ROF weapons will be perfect for spamming headshots all day.

The TTK for vehicles looked way too short, but this was harder to tell on the stream so I'll shut up about it until I give it a shot in the beta.

[goneglockin]

But he has a HA only weapon and a HA special ability. They switched POVs. Look in the right hand corner of the guy dying.

10 seconds later he switches to light assault from HA!

http://i.imgur.com/Icdp1.png

Still have no idea what you're talking about.

One thing you can see plain as day is that on the next death he is gnawed on by 3 different people as light assault before being killed. So either it was heavy assault and they have a paper asshole, or the video is cut in a way that makes it look ridiculous.

[Bags]

Still have no idea what you're talking about.

One thing you can see plain as day is that on the next death he is gnawed on by 3 different people as light assault before being killed. So either it was heavy assault and they have a paper asshole, or the video is cut in a way that makes it look ridiculous.

Okay, let me break it down for you:

37:49 - guy is dicking around in the deploy menu, never hits deploy
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg15/scaled.php?server=15&filename=picture1uke.png&res=landing
37:51 - Camera cuts to a heavy assault running at the TR spawn. Note the LMG pulsar (75 shot clip 300 cap) and HA shield ability in the bottom right.
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg594/scaled.php?server=594&filename=picture2td.png&res=landing
37:57 - first shot hits, armor gone
http://i.imgur.com/bH0nw.png
37:58 - second shot hits, dead
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg252/scaled.php?server=252&filename=picture4dead.png&res=landing
38:05 - deploy screen, heavy assault is already selected
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg151/scaled.php?server=151&filename=picture5sl.png&res=landing

Summary: heavy assault trooper got two shotted by a medic using a Cycler carbine.

[Malorn]

I think the presence of headshots makes the TTK vary widely. Could take several body shots or a quick burst to the head. I expect most will be a combination of head shots and body shots but it still seems to me like the game is about who sees who first, which is unfortunate.

[Chrispin]

I hope this low TTK gets fixed. Maybe it was just for show at E3, but headshots do too much damage. It might look way better in long-range fights, but that TTK is still pretty short for close-range.

[Shogun]

i am a fan of longer ttk.

but in the latest build (e3) we saw, infantry ttk looked worth of a beta-try!

but those vehicle props made of paper have to be replaced by real vehicles.
and vehicles should be less affected by simple bullets.
AV weapons should be the only thing that really hurts them, like it was in ps1.

neurotoxin said that the normal bullets were far more effective to use against aircrafts than the AA-weaponsystems. so there is something horribly wrong and has to be adressed during beta-balancing.

but overall from the gdc footage to now the game has improved a lot, and it looked as if the ttk for soldiers was almost fixed. vehicles next, please!
i am still concerned how it will play out with 50 times more players on the map, all spraying bullets, rockets and lasers around. but without a massive betatestsession nobody can tell how it´s gonna be.
can´t wait to see for myself.

[Xyntech]

I'm okay with ordinary bullets being effective against the ES fighters and ATV's, but I'd like to see them be extremely ineffective against tanks, Liberators, etc.

[GuyFawkes]

Have to wait until beta to see how they tweak it .

We've only seen the e3 footage . Expecting the numbers thats possible at launch could be very interesting. I see the typical average base/outpost fight being similar in numbers to the e3 demo, with some almighty battles going on in places like the central amp station they were using.

With the current ttk as it is, in those almighty battles I get the feeling it will be like day 1 of when they brought out bfr's > spawn> look outside >dead . Thats to be expected with everyone on launch, I'd just hate it to be the norm if you go near a large battle constantly .

Some tweaking and it should get a nice balance

[deltase]

The faster you can kill someone, the faster this game will become in shoot them up bullcrap! What will be the point of doing team work if you get one shoot killed? Everyone will chose snipers or something that doesnt fight directly into the frontlines and that's GG. I'd like to see bigger TTK, i want to see how you need 3 clips to kill a Max, cause Max is a Max and not a paper suit. Tanks in this build are made of paper too and how a paper tank can fight when there will be battles with 40+ tanks? Camping? Oh yeah that was the word to describe tactical crap made from campers who cant fight when on the move.

Tanks need a lot more armor and health, infantry need more health and more survivability. I hope in Beta the devs will make the right choice.

[Sturmhardt]

I would like a slow TTK like back in PS1, I really liked that SKILL determined who gets the kill, not who sees the enemy first.

[Nasher]

Hard to tell from the E3 gameplay. But I don't think infantry should ever be able to kill other infantry less than 2 or 3 hits with any weapon, even with headshots. Or there should be a perk to nullify headshot damage at the cost of movement speed or something.

OFC vehicles are a completely different matter.

[Deadeye]

I would like a slow TTK like back in PS1, I really liked that SKILL determined who gets the kill, not who sees the enemy first.

Except it's not skill that determined who won. I know that as a fact because I am currently playing Planetside 1 and the TTK in it is horrendous.

The TTK in PS2 needs to be much, much better. I like the battlefield idea of TTK and I'll tell you why with a Battlefield example: In the Battlefield games, whether you used an M4 (Assault Rifle) or an M249 SAW (an LMG) you had a good chance of killing eachother. One was not inheritently better than the other. In fact, Battlefield got it so right that in 2142 and in BF3 I can kill someone just as easily with an SMG as I can with an Assault rifle or LMG. In fact, in 2142, as an engineer, I could even hold an entire missile site by myself because the Engi SMG was actually decent. The balance and skill came in other aspects like using controlled bursts, effective range, and whether one was crouching or using the sites on the gun.

In Planetside 1, which I do currently play (chose to play it to see what it was all about after years of hearing about it), the Gauss rifle, the NC's Medium Assault weapon, which is akin to the M4 or M16, I'm just free points to a guy with a Heavy Assault weapon like the stupidly OP Terran Mini-chaingun (which is akin to an LMG but feels like the Team Fortress 2's Heavy's Minigun). Unless I take the guy completely by suprise, my gun is just plain worse than his is. And, usually, even if I got the drop on him, his TTK is like half of mine, so it ends up being pointless.

Bottom line, the TTK needs to be tighter and no gun should feel useless. If that means going the Battlefield/Call of Duty way, then so be it. Planetside 1's TTK is just stupid. Fact.

[Daffan]

Played some Planetside 1 today ( still got 2 accounts with 45 days un-used!!! Found both of em 1 is 5 yrs old other 6!)

the TTK in the streams looks wayyy less than PS1
Everything seems much faster in PS2 too.

^just repeating some infos :)

[Revanmug]

Okay, let me break it down for you:

Summary: heavy assault trooper got two shotted by a medic using a Cycler carbine.

Didn't saw that. 2 HS? in a row? Even though, not sure I like that since he is HA and the shooter was just a medic.

Lag could be involved. If they have a bad client side compensation ala BF3, that will happen frequently.

[OutlawDr]

at 37:52 - 38:00 watch the heavy assault, he is 2 shotted by a medic. Total time to kill is about a second.

Had to be two sequential head shots...fire seemed to come from top too.
In that same video it took a VS MAX with a quasar 4 shots to kill a LA. Thats a dedicated anti-infantry heavy weapon against a class with second lowest armor value. at 53:21. He had more than enough time to duck, but he just stood there reloading and eating laser.

[Dloan]

Where PS1 seriously sucked in the TTK stakes was medium range combat. I haven't really seen much of that. The combination of damage degradation, bloom and COF together with medpacks, shields and armour forced short range combat to dominate.

[HenchAnt]

TTK looks about right for my taste:
- NC with Gauss Rifle shooting up Vanu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=98bGepZsKc4#t=670s)
- TR with Repeater Pistol ambushing Vanu from top in one clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=98bGepZsKc4#t=1602s)
- TR chaingun MAX hunting Vanu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=98bGepZsKc4#t=1657s)
- TR soldier headshotting other TR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0xcmHYuUbn0#t=2440s)

While many modern tactial shooters I like take about 2-4 shots (or one headshot), here it appears to be 6-8 hits and more (and/or 2 hits to the head). Feels appropriate to me.

Not sure how the already mentioned "more players = more shots" factor will scale against smarter use of shields, terrain and medics. Guess we'll have to see that in Beta.

[Smokingrabbit]

infantry vs infantry looked perfect to me. Vehicles though seemed to die very fast considering you are spending recources on em. I do accept that vehicles are a much more situational weapon and take alot more time to get good at. Back in the original beta my first kill in a reaver was one lone infantry man running across open ground and it took ALL of my rockets lol.

[Bags]

TTK looks about right for my taste:
- NC with Gauss Rifle shooting up Vanu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=98bGepZsKc4#t=670s)
- TR with Repeater Pistol ambushing Vanu from top in one clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=98bGepZsKc4#t=1602s)
- TR soldier headshotting other TR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0xcmHYuUbn0#t=2440s)



Just sayin, but the first two guys missed 90% of their bullets, and 2 hs for a kill is ridiculous TTK.

[Pillar of Armor]

I'm on the fence about this one. PS1 TTK definitely sucked. The TTK in the E3 demo looked good, but there were a lot of inexperienced players and there were way less people than normal. Throw in 2-4 times the grenade, rocket, and shell spam, some experienced players, and the situation will be way different. The TTK will feel a lot lower because most players won't have full health when they get to a fight. It probably will need to be bumped by a little bit, but I guess we will find out during the beta.

[OutlawDr]

If it was a two hit headshot kill on HA with a cycler then the headshot multiplier is set too high.

However I've watched some LA gameplay video, and its taking 4-6 hits to kill light assault at close range. I imagine its more for most other classes and also at longer ranges.

In MW/BF its about 3 at close range and 5 at long range for most weapons.
PS1 was about 7-8 on agile armor with medium assault weapons.
So at 4-6 for LA in PS2, its in the middle, and I'm fine with that.

Since its alpha there might be some value discrepancies for certain weapons. Add in some alpha lag, and it could account for why it seemed like some players dropped too quickly.

[indirect]

I haven't had a chance to play yet (have my beta key on my account just waiting now,) but I'm really hoping for a Medium TTK. PS1 was good but I feel could have always been sped up a bit. I'm hoping for a little quicker than PS1 but not quite as quick as BF3.

[mirwalk]

I personally feel it could be upped a tad. From what I saw I think it was pretty good, though some of the kills with the auto pistol I thought were a bit too fast.
though as people pointed out, this was about half what should have been in the fray, so it may need to be compensated for.

[Maltodextrin]

The faster you can kill someone, the faster this game will become in shoot them up bullcrap! What will be the point of doing team work if you get one shoot killed? Everyone will chose snipers or something that doesnt fight directly into the frontlines and that's GG. I'd like to see bigger TTK, i want to see how you need 3 clips to kill a Max, cause Max is a Max and not a paper suit. Tanks in this build are made of paper too and how a paper tank can fight when there will be battles with 40+ tanks? Camping? Oh yeah that was the word to describe tactical crap made from campers who cant fight when on the move.

Tanks need a lot more armor and health, infantry need more health and more survivability. I hope in Beta the devs will make the right choice.

You never played Rainbow 6, or Ghost Recon, did you? (The original ones, not the more recent versions.) One-shot-one-kill was the name of the game, and yes, it required a shit-ton of skill. Why? Because you always had to be cautious. You always had to have situational awareness. You always had to be aware of your surroundings. You couldn't afford to get sloppy, because getting sloppy meant getting pegged by the noob who got lucky.

You know what really went a long way towards survival? Teamwork. A man can't watch all areas of threat and respond to them on his own, but a team can. A buddy can watch your back, two more can watch your sides.

The shorter TTK, combined with the squad experience, should go a long way to encouraging teamwork organically. A tight, well coordinated squad should be able to face down a much larger force, and should, hopefully, go a long way to breaking up the zerg.

[GTGD]

From the looks of it, pretty damn good so far. But that was on a smaller scale. It might be different when there are more people in each fight so that you'd need to worry about getting shot up by more people. All the more reason to make sure we extensively test the beta ;)

[Pillar of Armor]

You never played Rainbow 6, or Ghost Recon, did you? (The original ones, not the more recent versions.) One-shot-one-kill was the name of the game, and yes, it required a shit-ton of skill. Why? Because you always had to be cautious. You always had to have situational awareness. You always had to be aware of your surroundings. You couldn't afford to get sloppy, because getting sloppy meant getting pegged by the noob who got lucky.


Skill doesn't always count in war. The sheer scale of the fight changes the situation quite a lot. Stray mortars, rockets, bullets, grenades will put a damper on your skill and strategy pretty quickly. It's not all about what is right in front of you. Sure you can be good at small skirmishes, but you have to remember that there are hundreds of players or vehicles firing haphazardly at anything they see. Stray munitions will take down your health and suddenly a small TTK will become a one-shot-one kill with thousands of rounds and explosives being fired around you every second. With a low TTK and hundreds of players, you will be staring at the spawn screen more than you will be playing.

[Vexus]

i am a fan of longer ttk.
<snip>
but those vehicle props made of paper have to be replaced by real vehicles.
and vehicles should be less affected by simple bullets.
AV weapons should be the only thing that really hurts them, like it was in ps1.

neurotoxin said that the normal bullets were far more effective to use against aircrafts than the AA-weaponsystems. so there is something horribly wrong and has to be adressed during beta-balancing.
<snip>

I edited down this quote because I wanted to to agree with the vehicle aspect in the quote above. IMHO, small arms fire shouldn't be penetrating armor of tanks and aircraft. Cannons should, but to lesser effect. I would prefer to see the anti-vehicle/anti-aircraft guns be what takes out vehicles. Other vehicles/aircraft, mines, mortars (haven't seen any in the game actually), and grenades should be the way to take out a MBT, not machine guns and a cactus.

Aircraft kills should require AA guns, turrets, vehicles, rocket launchers, and/or most importantly, other aircraft. IMHO, this would make for more robust and rewarding gameplay. Aircraft and tanks used as disposable transports for 3 or less infantry seems to trivialize one of the coolest aspects PS2 gameplay for me. Sure, they need to land to repair, refuel and reload, but let's not make them piniata death-traps from which people bail at the first sign of conflict.

[MacXXcaM]

Having just started playing PS1 again I must say the TTK there was awesome and I think PS2 is taking the wrong direction copying TTK rates from other shooters.

Personally for me, it's too fast right now...
In PS1 you could shoot at each other for quite a while and did seldomly die because someone ambushed you from somewhere far away.

I want PS2 to preserve this feeling to kill someone because of superior firepower and not just luck by being the first one to hit the other.

[Ant001]

I don't see how anyone can even guess at the ttk for the streams we saw. So much depends on "upgrades".
How much damage does a shield take at level 1 upgrade compared to level 3?
Do any of the upgrades negate a personal shield?
If there is an upgrade to increase projectile damage but lower fire rate can you one shot targets?
At what distance do vanu weapon damage degrade so much as to make a headshot useless?

Beta will let us get a better feel for it, and only then after a few weeks of play.

[maddoggg]

I vote for higher TTK with two hands.
I know SOE have to make the game a bit more accesible to casual gamers and one of the ways to do it is to lower the TTK(and there for the skills required to play)but current TTK seems a bit too low.

After analizing some footage frame by frame,i think that most assalt rifles kill with 7-8 bullets.
Which is dangerously close to battlefield 3's 5-6 bullets.
I think they should make it so that it takes atleast 10-12 bullets.

And like OP said,the people at E3 were playing for first time and their aim and recoil controll was pretty terrabad.Imagine how quickly you'll drop when a skilled player(or even a couple of them)open fire on you.

Low TTK would only encourage people to be too scared to PTFO(playing the f*** objective)and they would only resort to cheap tactics and camping to boost their K/D ratio and get easy kills they dont deserve,and they wont give a sh** about the team play.

[HenchAnt]

I know SOE have to make the game a bit more accesible to casual gamers and one of the ways to do it is to lower the TTK(and there for the skills required to play)but current TTK seems a bit too low.


Isn't it the other way around? Larger TTK is more forgiving, and thus more accesible to casual gamers?

I don't think low TTK has anything to do with pampering casual gamers. It simply supports a more "realistic" feel (weapons feeling like weapons, and and not like torchlights ;) ).

Gamewise, it comes down to two things:

Firefights with rifles

I like my infantry fights to be firefights dominated by assault rifle style weapons, where people advance from cover to cover and provide covering fire to each other.

To have that, assault rifles have to hurt somewhat. If they don't hurt, then they won't stop players from just charging in through the open and taking people out with grenade spam and melee weapons. Tribes Ascend is a nice example for this (which is actually fun, but feels more like an arena than a war).


Terrain matters

And - in my opinion - lower TTK also rewards players being able to use terrain and tactics.

A low hitpoint player should still be able to win against a high hitpoint enemy by using superior gameplay. For example getting behind him unnoticed and taking him out - that's rewarding. Having him simply turn around and shoot me down because of more HP would be frustrating.

If an assault rifle doesn't hurt, then it will be harder to pin people down behind cover to make them vulnerable to flanking teammates.


Summary

If a player can evade almost any trap by surviving a 30m or 50m sprint through the open, then this devalues assault rifles and discourages coordinated teamplay and use of terrain somewhat. Instead, the game starts to reward players that have perfected aiming while circle strafing and/or droping grenades while jumpjetting.

So personally, as I said, I think that the "about 8 hits from an assault rifle take you out" is an a nice compromise to reconcile "terrain huging modern assault rifle players" and the "jetpacking circle-strafing thumper fans". (There might be a bias here. :D)

[Kalbuth]

Isn't it the other way around? Larger TTK is more forgiving, and thus more accesible to casual gamers?

I don't think low TTK has anything to do with pampering casual gamers. It simply supports a more "realistic" feel (weapons feeling like weapons, and and not like torchlights ;) ).

Gamewise, it comes down to two things:

Firefights with rifles

I like my infantry fights to be firefights dominated by assault rifle style weapons, where people advance from cover to cover and provide covering fire to each other.

To have that, assault rifles have to hurt somewhat. If they don't hurt, then they won't stop players from just charging in through the open and taking people out with grenade spam and melee weapons. Tribes Ascend is a nice example for this (which is actually fun, but feels more like an arena than a war).


Terrain matters

And - in my opinion - lower TTK also rewards players being able to use terrain and tactics.

A low hitpoint player should still be able to win against a high hitpoint enemy by using superior gameplay. For example getting behind him unnoticed and taking him out - that's rewarding. Having him simply turn around and shoot me down because of more HP would be frustrating.

If an assault rifle doesn't hurt, then it will be harder to pin people down behind cover to make them vulnerable to flanking teammates.


Summary

If a player can evade almost any trap by surviving a 30m or 50m sprint through the open, then this devalues assault rifles and discourages coordinated teamplay and use of terrain somewhat. Instead, the game starts to reward players that have perfected aiming while circle strafing and/or droping grenades while jumpjetting.

So personally, as I said, I think that the "about 8 hits from an assault rifle take you out" is an a nice compromise to reconcile "terrain huging modern assault rifle players" and the "jetpacking circle-strafing thumper fans". (There might be a bias here. :D)

In terms of fighting and shooting efficiency, lower TTK make things easier to casual. Aim in the general direction, click a bit, or spam mouse button, and get the kill.
When you have to concentrate on your target, which has the time to react, and evade away, this makes killing him more difficult.
There is more to skill and strategy than just planning your route to the next cover.
It's a delicate balance between twitch skill and "tactical" skill.
In fact, I would oppose to the notion that more twitch skill required, and longer TTK, are killing the teamplay and tactical positioning.
Crossfire and cover fire with 1 squad member on the move is equally efficient in high TTK environment.

With equal twitch skill, the team with better positioning and crossfire is going to win. The fact that a single guy could evade a team shooting at him shows more the lack of precision of the team. They need to work more on their aim, which is not a bad thing. While still working on their positioning and crossfire techniques

Also, the fact you can evade on the move is important, because it means that you can move without fearing immediate punishment. This makes the fight more dynamic, without people staying back in fear of being dead as soon as they move.

BF/CoD like TTK rewards the guy waiting in shadows and waiting for the opponent. They add to this a whole lot of effects around making things less visible, hampering your situational awareness artificially.
This did strike me in the face recently when I tried Tribes:Ascend, which is the complete opposite : the environment is completely clear, the objective lies there before you, the ennemy is visible, the difficulty lies in getting things actually done, making yourself move correctly and land the shots correctly. "I have an incoming flag capper 200kph, how will we stop him? My job is to chase him, how will I gain speed along the same vector as his own, and deliver the final blow after my fellow defense-mates have worn him down?"

On the other hand, PS1 TTK were horribly high making things exactly like you describe, ie so long to take someone out that in fact, evading skill was not even really needed, bare at close range, and everyon had time to run straight into cover, rince and repeat.
So it's a delicate balance to achieve.

But going low TTK is not going to enhance teamplay once you reach TTK low enough.

[Meriv]

I like the current ttk, and I think they will hardly change it, as I wrote in an another post, if ps1 was blietzgrieg with fast veicle transport, infantry fighting indoors and the distances from outpost to outpost weren't realy walkeable, with longer ttk.

Ps2 will be a position war just like ww1, they want us to form a massive front line and trowing ourself to each other like lemmings (the spawn time and ttk less time), soo to encourage this what they did? They first put the time per cap rule that means it will be realy haaaaard to cap behind line outpost and being capable of defending it. They put a cost to veicles soo you won't be able to spam them to reach the far away position. They made a lot more outpost and at short distances,soo you will not transport urself to the next outpost you will have to fight each of the meter you are walking on. Second they made home terrain realy easy defendible by the home faction, canyons for tr spray weapons soo there is a wall of fire, a lot of obstacles in Nc for hiding while reloading, emptyness in Vanu zone where magrider will rule and no bullet drop will let you snipe km away from you.All this to push you to the battle at the mid of the T

if we make the ttk longer all this concept will go down, you will see more little actions everywhere but less of the massive combat they want (and that personaly like)soo expect something more E3 than ps1

[Sledgecrushr]

I dont think the ttk we saw in any of the footage properly takes the advanced body armor that everyone is wearing into consideration. TTK should be greatly extended barring well placed shots in unarmored areas.

[maddoggg]

Isn't it the other way around? Larger TTK is more forgiving, and thus more accesible to casual gamers?

I don't think low TTK has anything to do with pampering casual gamers. It simply supports a more "realistic" feel (weapons feeling like weapons, and and not like torchlights ;) ).

Gamewise, it comes down to two things:

Firefights with rifles

I like my infantry fights to be firefights dominated by assault rifle style weapons, where people advance from cover to cover and provide covering fire to each other.

To have that, assault rifles have to hurt somewhat. If they don't hurt, then they won't stop players from just charging in through the open and taking people out with grenade spam and melee weapons. Tribes Ascend is a nice example for this (which is actually fun, but feels more like an arena than a war).


Terrain matters

And - in my opinion - lower TTK also rewards players being able to use terrain and tactics.

A low hitpoint player should still be able to win against a high hitpoint enemy by using superior gameplay. For example getting behind him unnoticed and taking him out - that's rewarding. Having him simply turn around and shoot me down because of more HP would be frustrating.

If an assault rifle doesn't hurt, then it will be harder to pin people down behind cover to make them vulnerable to flanking teammates.


Summary

If a player can evade almost any trap by surviving a 30m or 50m sprint through the open, then this devalues assault rifles and discourages coordinated teamplay and use of terrain somewhat. Instead, the game starts to reward players that have perfected aiming while circle strafing and/or droping grenades while jumpjetting.

So personally, as I said, I think that the "about 8 hits from an assault rifle take you out" is an a nice compromise to reconcile "terrain huging modern assault rifle players" and the "jetpacking circle-strafing thumper fans". (There might be a bias here. :D)

Nope i am pretty sure low TTK=casual game and not the other way around.
Why?
Which is the most casual and n00b friendly FPS game in the world?
COD-typical example of low TTK.
Bf3 comes right after it with low TTK aswell as dumbing down the game to the point where it feels more like COD than battlefield.
Medal of honor is another low TTK game which have close to no learning curve.

Now let's take a look at high TTK games:
Tribes-probably one of the most skillbased games in the world.

Section 8(my favorite franchise)-Battlefield meets skill based combat of a game like quake.
The result:A game that is ALL about skill and luck wont help you there.
When you win a fire fight it's because you are the better player.
Team work is MUUUUUUUUCH more important than the average shooter made for 14 year old kids,simply because combining loadouts and focus firing on the enemies gives you a huge advantage.

Team work there is not about pressing 3 to throw medpack or q to spot,it's about actuall coordination,moving in formation,focus firing,advanced positioning,having a chain of command and following it.

Quake 3-A very old school game and even though it's not much tactical and team oriented,that game is all about skill.

So people get the EXTREMELY rong idea that when you have a low TTK that makes the game more tactical.
That is complete and utter bullsh**.
Positioning,atacking first,using the terrain,covering different areas,those are things that nearly every FPS game have.
Those things are just as important in a game like COD/bf3 as they are in section 8 for example.

But games like COD have ONLY that element.
It's about knowing the map and the camp spots.
The team work even in the highest competitive matches is only limited to who camps which spot.
And that's ALL there is to it.
I have played a little bit of COD and i have played a lot of bf3(competitivly).
Those games just lack tactical dept and the only people who dont see it are the ones who havent played a really tactical game,which just forces you to do team work unless you like getting pwned.

But in high TTK skill based games,except the elements you have those casual games,you also have the factor of aiming skills,the factor of dogging skills.
There is MUCH more tactic invloved since the battle doesnt end up in 0.1s.

If you shoot at someone or someone shoots at you,you need to start planing how to continue fighting.
How to abuse the terran to your advantage.
What weapon do you have,what weapon does he have?
Should i keep him close to me or away from me?
Should i use a lot of cover an make quick shots with a slow ROF(rate of fire)weapon or should i go directly at high because i have a weapon with a better DPS(dmg per second).

Team work there takes much more time to master,but also rewards you much more.
In section 8 for example the only way a n00b player can take out a good player is by using team work and having a m8 to help him focus fire on a target.

The beaty of the game was that single good player can take out 40 n00b players if they just run around rambo style,however even the best player in the game can be taken out by just 2 average players moving together and using team work.

Covering different areas when moving together there,was just as important as in other games,however you also had to be able to focus fire(for example you run into 5 enemies and you need to all focus your fire into one enemy at a time),you also needed to move at proper formation to maximazime the dmg you do and minimaze the dmg from spalsh weapons that you can take.


High TTK games are not only more skill based,they are also much more team based and requite you to PTFO(play the f*** objective)and move with your squad A LOT more.

Ofcourse when a game requires you to both have good aiming/dogging skills and have a good tactical sense,than that game just becomes way to overwhelming for the average gamer,which is used to get online,get a ton of kills in his first minutes of play and have the game throw medals and rewards at him every 5 seconds.

I dont expect ps2 to have the TTK of a game like section 8 or tribes,simply because it would become too hard and people wont bother to learn how to play it.
However i really dont think they need to dumb it down to the point where it feels like COD/bf3.

[HenchAnt]

Right aways, Kalbuth: I think you are making a few good points.

In terms of fighting and shooting efficiency, lower TTK make things easier to casual. Aim in the general direction, click a bit, or spam mouse button, and get the kill.
When you have to concentrate on your target, which has the time to react, and evade away, this makes killing him more difficult.


With most modern "Americas Armies style" tactical shooters, "Aim in the general direction, click a bit, or spam mouse button, and get the kill." won't cut it. You actually have to concentrate on target, you have to get into position, and you have to react to the enemy knowing your position.

But yeah, a tactical shooter probably makes it easier for unexperienced players to get a kill, while a movement shooter makes it easier for unexperienced players to evade being killed.

In the end, it would be silly to claim that one takes more skill than the other. In both cases, there's no luck involved, just player performance. Yet the skill set required to win is quite different. I guess we agree on this. ;)


Also, the fact you can evade on the move is important, because it means that you can move without fearing immediate punishment. This makes the fight more dynamic, without people staying back in fear of being dead as soon as they move.


Yes, that's actually a very valid point.

But you already mentioned Tribes:Ascend, which actually takes things in the opposite direction: Movement is everything, terrain doesn't matter in the conventional sense. (It matters in the context of kiting, but it's nothing that's fought over or held.)

Tribes is decided by better shooting-while-moving skills, and teamplay matters more on a ... "statistical" basis. It's not "action" based, where people do something and see how it leads to success. Like "person A provides covering fire, Person B pops the smoke to advance on the left while person C uses the distractions to come from behind". Instead tribes feels like people zigzagging around, and local outnumbering dwindling down hitpoints. To me, it feels ... more statistical and anonymous.

And Tribes actually demonstrates quite nicely what choice of weapons to expect in this case: The unexperienced sticking to splash damage weapons like grenade launchers, while trigger savy players use sniper weapons on the move. The assault rifle is just a "finisher" to take out almost-dead players in a spray-and-pray manner.

To make it clear: Tribes is a very skillfull game. I just don't think that these mechanics would give Planetside 2 that "enormous combined arms warfare" atmosphere I'm hoping for.

So, as you said, a balance is required to keep things between a camp fest and a kite fest.

Personally, I see this one at about 8 hits. That should be enough to be able to keep smart enemies in a "normal" battle at a distance of 30+ meters: There they can still dive for cover, have their wounds healed by team mates, can profit from shield replenishing over time and profit from teammates discouraging enemies from just rushing in and finishing the wounded player of.
That's the battles I want to see. ;)

But if somebody decides to solo into dangerous terrain, without thinking about cover, retreat lanes or backup by buddies, then I would expect him to go down fast once somebody gets the better on him. And that's actually what we were seeing in the E3 footage.

(Actually, I think that "shield replenishing over time" is a big deal: It rewards players that actually get the advantage on a player and manage to drive home a series of shots in short time. Yet when playing carefully or against an uncommited opponent, this allows for staying alive quite a while. In the E3 footage, most people were soloing close quarter battles: Shield replenishing hardly ever mattered. I guess that once players get more experienced/organized, shield replenishing will increase soldier lifespan quite a bit.)

[james]

Its to large to have a Halo ttk, the most you could get away with is a BC2 ttk, but i would expect something along the lines of BF3

[Exmortius]

initial thoughts watching e3 video since i haven't played beta is that ttk seems about dead on to me but will have to see how i feel as i go against various loadouts and vehicles. vehicles should be uber fast ttk, generally with max and snipers 2nd, heavy assault, light assault. this is pretty much how ps1 was. but overall i liked what i saw in the videos.

[Deadeye]

What concerns me the most is not overall ttk but how big the ttk spectrum is across all weapons and especially the assault rifles. I want to avoid a situation like in PS1 where if you weren't packing a heavy assault weapon you were just free points for one.

If they can guarantee me that HA will not be just plain better than the other classes, then I'll live with whatever the overall ttk is.

[Grapes]

I think the TTK is fine where it's at. Planetside was waay too long, but I also think that some other games are too fast. You're going to die a lot as they say, and in the meanwhile you might want to pick up some kills too, so the TTK is fine.

[Dairian]

If the max unit are able to take headshots I hope they don't plan on the TR getting the lockdown mode they had in PS1. TR maxes will get owned! While the NC and VS will be able to walk around and use there ability avoiding them. Unless they made them immune to headshots while locked down.

[Kalbuth]

What concerns me the most is not overall ttk but how big the ttk spectrum is across all weapons and especially the assault rifles. I want to avoid a situation like in PS1 where if you weren't packing a heavy assault weapon you were just free points for one.

If they can guarantee me that HA will not be just plain better than the other classes, then I'll live with whatever the overall ttk is.

^ This!

[Stew]

The current time to kill is perfect to me it seams satifaying and good

Higher team to kill lead to anoying combat and Zerg win over skills !

A single skilled player should be able to take out 3 guys by himself if not the ttk will lead to battle like Dust514 and it could be the worst thing ever

TTK should work like this HITBOX is everything

Headshot VEry high damage

Central mass chest shot = High damage

Hip shot = medium damage

legs shot = very low damage

This is the way to balanced thing not increase the overall health of the players and also vehicules with to much health lead to some anoying BF/ like situation In Bfbc 2 for a exemple the tanks was amasingly powerfull like they are in BF3 but a single ENG with great acuracy was able to take one out in 1 or 2 shot

NOW in BF3 its a compleat crap tanks are almost always OP in 99 % of the situation and the entire (( vehicules disable instead of blowing up )) ad some cherry on the top of that shitty sunday !

More massive the game is more Pack of players you will enconter and If the TTK is to high or even higher than it is at the moments 1 vs 2 figth will be imposible to win so ZERG and MAX will always win over skills players and its a BAD very BAD thing !


their will be tons of 2 vs 4 5 vs 12 and so on in planetside 2 so the TTK as to be Low or medium low


IF they boost up the TTK they will have to put up a way more bullets in the magazine if not this game will not be called planetside 2 anymore

It will be called RELOADside 2 and JUMPAROUNDside 2

So yeah this game have a fine TTK and vehicules is fine maybe glaxy need a little more health but the reaver etc.. are ok as they are Vehicules as to be High risk high reward they are vulnerable but they are damned good killing machine

Skills win over Numbre

Medium TTK FTW !

[Stew]

The faster you can kill someone, the faster this game will become in shoot them up bullcrap! What will be the point of doing team work if you get one shoot killed? Everyone will chose snipers or something that doesnt fight directly into the frontlines and that's GG. I'd like to see bigger TTK, i want to see how you need 3 clips to kill a Max, cause Max is a Max and not a paper suit. Tanks in this build are made of paper too and how a paper tank can fight when there will be battles with 40+ tanks? Camping? Oh yeah that was the word to describe tactical crap made from campers who cant fight when on the move.

Tanks need a lot more armor and health, infantry need more health and more survivability. I hope in Beta the devs will make the right choice.

You should go play dust514 then it will be the perfect game for you

the TTK is discustingly High and an AR worth nothing also the combat is more like a dance than a combat and you can reload like 3 time to kill someones so yeah !

I do not want planetside 2 to be like this dust pile of crap High TTK

Planetside 2 is just fine at it is rigth now other than thats the balenced will be on the weapons the actual health and shield is perfect at it is !

PS : when you see 40 tanks running at you no matter whats is your armor you will die RUN or die ! Also we cant balanced a game around bee shot by 40 tanks and survive lol

The game as to be balance in the way were 1 players with skills can take out 3 others whiout having to reload 10 times and also higher is the TTK the more chance you have to die

since 3 guys shooting at one youll make 33 % and they will make 100 % you dead and you dont even take out one with you

High ttk lead to unfairness and crap

Also all your reply is base around BEEN SHOT and (( survive )) All my reply is about Been able to Kill quickly in order to survive wich one is better for skills player ? HIGH TTK is just good for ZERGING around

[DarkChiron]

If the max unit are able to take headshots I hope they don't plan on the TR getting the lockdown mode they had in PS1. TR maxes will get owned! While the NC and VS will be able to walk around and use there ability avoiding them. Unless they made them immune to headshots while locked down.

MAX units take additional damage from headshots, but it is on a lower damage multiplier than everyone else. The way they talked, it was not a great deal more damage, but it's there.

[fod]

The current time to kill is perfect to me it seams satifaying and good

Higher team to kill lead to anoying combat and Zerg win over skills !

A single skilled player should be able to take out 3 guys by himself if not the ttk will lead to battle like Dust514 and it could be the worst thing ever

TTK should work like this HITBOX is everything

Headshot VEry high damage

Central mass chest shot = High damage

Hip shot = medium damage

legs shot = very low damage

This is the way to balanced thing not increase the overall health of the players and also vehicules with to much health lead to some anoying BF/ like situation In Bfbc 2 for a exemple the tanks was amasingly powerfull like they are in BF3 but a single ENG with great acuracy was able to take one out in 1 or 2 shot

NOW in BF3 its a compleat crap tanks are almost always OP in 99 % of the situation and the entire (( vehicules disable instead of blowing up )) ad some cherry on the top of that shitty sunday !

More massive the game is more Pack of players you will enconter and If the TTK is to high or even higher than it is at the moments 1 vs 2 figth will be imposible to win so ZERG and MAX will always win over skills players and its a BAD very BAD thing !


their will be tons of 2 vs 4 5 vs 12 and so on in planetside 2 so the TTK as to be Low or medium low


IF they boost up the TTK they will have to put up a way more bullets in the magazine if not this game will not be called planetside 2 anymore

It will be called RELOADside 2 and JUMPAROUNDside 2

So yeah this game have a fine TTK and vehicules is fine maybe glaxy need a little more health but the reaver etc.. are ok as they are Vehicules as to be High risk high reward they are vulnerable but they are damned good killing machine

Skills win over Numbre

Medium TTK FTW !

i disagree with almost every point you made

"Higher team to kill lead to anoying combat and Zerg win over skills "

no it takes less skill to hit someone with 3 bullets than it does 5 bullets so there is more skill in higher TTK
also a higher TTK encourages teamwork and for players to stick together and concentrate their fire on a single target instead of going lone wolf because he can "take out 3 people alone" ("A single skilled player should be able to take out 3 guys by himself")

"1 vs 2 figth will be imposible to win so ZERG and MAX will always win"

this is the way it should be - teamwork and numbers should allways win over a few lone wolfs

"Skills win over Numbre"
i say

"teamwork over lone wolfs"

[Stew]

i disagree with almost every point you made

"Higher team to kill lead to anoying combat and Zerg win over skills "

no it takes less skill to hit someone with 3 bullets than it does 5 bullets so there is more skill in higher TTK
also a higher TTK encourages teamwork and for players to stick together and concentrate their fire on a single target instead of going lone wolf because he can "take out 3 people alone" ("A single skilled player should be able to take out 3 guys by himself")

"1 vs 2 figth will be imposible to win so ZERG and MAX will always win"

this is the way it should be - teamwork and numbers should allways win over a few lone wolfs

"Skills win over Numbre"
i say

"teamwork over lone wolfs"

It take more skills to have quick reflex high accuracy and great sens of situational awareness !

High ttk = someones shoot you in the back you can slowly turn yourself start shooting at him call for help and finish him with a friend before he can finish you is this take skills ? is this proove anything ?

You talk like it will always be 1 vs 1 if it was a game 1 vs 1 i will say your rigth High TTK could proove who as the better aiming ( lock ))

But this isnt a 1 vs 1 game

High ttk lead to tons of reloads durring thats time the others shoot at you and you werent able to even finish up one lol This is ridiculous ! Numbers will always win over skills since their will be mostlikely rarely 1 vs 1 figth

High TTK lead to dancing instead of figthing , lead to people running around like crazy because they know they will not die so easyly

Low or Medium low ttk must be balance this way BY HITBOX this will take apart the skills and the noobs

Headshot = High damage
chest centrale mass = medium high damage
Hip shot = medium low damage
Legs = very low damage
feets = extremely low damage

This way skills players will be with their AIM Speed and situational awarness take themself apart of all the noobs

and will conter the Zerg tactics wich with a high TTK will be impossible to stop

Planetside 2 will feature tons of 10 vs 5 ... 15 vs 3 .... 50 vs 25

If the TTK is really high BIG outfit will simply zerg their way to the victory even with a low ttk they could

You must understand that iam not all for getting shot at me and hoppiong to suvive this way until i founf out whats happen and then react

Iam all for atacking with a great efficiency Not having a big life bonus thats allow me to run around while getting shot like crazy

And this have nothing to do with lone wolfing this is the reality of large scales game slike this u cant be sure the numbers will be equal no matter whats you say about team work you cant choose whos gonna be in your empire / servers and also whos gonna atack where and with whats numbers Low medium TTK allow you to make quick and efficent attack or conter atack and the skills win over number and this is the way it should be

Ill say this for the final

IF YOU WANT HIGH TTK TAKE A MAX HIGH HEALT LOW mobility the way it should be

[maddoggg]

I am sorry stew but you are just FULL of rong.

First of,a single player cant take out several weak players if TTK is high?
Really?
Funny,because in section 8 prejudice(one of the highest TTK games out there)i was tacking out 7-8 n00bs at a time,sometimes using knife only.
Because they didnt have Low TTK to help them get an easy kill,they actually had to aim and since they sucked at it they got humiliated bad...

However there is a big difference between making a 10 killsteak in a low TTK game and a 10 killstreak in a high TTK game(and yes i know since i have made a lot of high killstreaks in games like bf3 and even COD4 and i gotta say it's neither chalenging or much fun):
Low TTK game:Get lucky,camp a spot,spray in their general direction,get easy kills without trying.
High TTK:Move a lot,use terrain to your advantage,pick them off 1 at a time,be the better shoter,be more maneuverable.

Low TTK takes more skill :rofl: .
That's like saying hardcore takes more skill(it's funny how all the hardcore clans get pwned by softcore clans even in hardcore mode).

So most skilled and complicated game in the world must be COD than?
TTK is so low you can play with your eyes closed and still get kills.
I bet all those 14 y old console kids are full of skill and that's why they can ONLY play on low TTK games.

I have already said it,but i ll say it again:
Low TTK games:COD,BF3,medal of honor.
High TTK games:Tribes,section 8,quake 3.

High TTK is also MUCH more important for team work.

I really dont understand why people demand low TTK of every single game.
You cant shoot and want to camp for K/D?
Fine,if it makes you happy,95% of the FPS games give you just that.
Why would you ask the only decent sci fi game to have the simplistic shooter mehanics of a game like COD.

In a FPS market overcrowded with simplistic COD like games,why cant we have a single high TTK game that requires skill AND tactic?

[Stew]

I am sorry stew but you are just FULL of rong.

First of,a single player cant take out several weak players if TTK is high?
Really?
Funny in section 8 prejudice(one of the highest TTK games out there)i was tacking out 7-8 n00bs at a time,sometimes using knife only.
Because they didnt have Low TTK to help them get an easy kill,they actually had to aim and since they sucked at it they got humiliated bad...

.

BAD exemple Section 8 have lock on mechanics and everyones as a jetpack and very high mobility two compleat opposite game and the lock on mechanics makes everything irrevelant also the jetpack aspect of it

Would you like to come with me in BF3 ? i will play with you a record our game

[Stew]

I am sorry stew but you are just FULL of rong.

.

Your answer

Planetside 2 TTK ( Time To Kill ) why its better medium Low than High - YouTube

[indirect]

I can't understand this last page at all.

Google translator, where are you?

[dyslecix]

I think the current ttk is too low for my tastes, but that's just my opinion. I don't think they will make it higher, though.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[greenberetdelta]

TTK stands for Time to Kill. Basically, its how long the average gun is going to take to kill someone.

I'm mainly discussing Infantry TTK here, since i feel vehicles are still being worked on.

The question i have is this... do you like the current TTK and if not how should it feel?

I'll compile a list of games and my feelings of TTK:
5 Planetside
4 Halo
3 Planetside 2
2 Battlefield
1 Call of Duty

Planetside is obviously the longest TTK, with Halo following closely. It takes focus firing and some great nade timings to kill someone quickly in Halo.
Battlefield is pretty fast, but the guns have a lot of recoil and the battlefield is large.
Call of duty is quite clearly the fastest TTK, which in my opinion makes for terrible gameplay. It's just who sees who first.

I put planetside 2 below Halo because it feels like you die somewhat quickly. Although right now it may look like players aren't dying that fast, once people get a feel for recoil and leading in the kills are going to be much faster. In the scale i saw at the E3 demo, the TTK felt reasonable, but there is a reason Planetside 1 had such a long TTK:
So many people shooting.

I am scared that large scale battles won't allow you to even peep your head out of a window. I would like to be able to retreat and peek my head out to kill someone every once in a while.

What do you guys think about the current TTK?

what battlefield are you referring to because IMO bad company 2 takes more bullets than battlefield 3

[Stew]

what battlefield are you referring to because IMO bad company 2 takes more bullets than battlefield 3

battlefield bc 2 has a better balistics overall and also a better hitbox in my opinion your rigth on that BF3 is all random bullets badly made recoils mechanics but its a fun game but frustrating planetside look a way more like bfbc2 to me wich is fine and also all the balanced must be on the hibox level not on the lame BOOST up of the overall health !

Those who want to take more punishement have to play max thats all

[WNxThentar]

The TTKs in the all the videos I've seen have been ok. The balance needs to come in making sure that no empire is unfairly disadvantaged compared to the others.

[maddoggg]

BAD exemple Section 8 have lock on mechanics and everyones as a jetpack and very high mobility two compleat opposite game and the lock on mechanics makes everything irrevelant also the jetpack aspect of it

Would you like to come with me in BF3 ? i will play with you a record our game

If you played section 8 for more than 2 hours and you werent horrible in it(because thinking lock on can help you means you are horrible in it)you would know lock on is useless since it can be COMPLETELY countered by a jammer beacon.
I am no fan of it beeing put into the game,but since the game really rewards shooting skill and the shooting is difficult,the developers decided to put it in for the console n00bs to have a chance to kill someone in mid air.

I havent played bf3 in a while but sure we can have a few rounds(i am Dellta_34).
I was actually a competitive player in this game and i am part of the bulgarian national team.
I have also played a lot of ESL versus with probably the best croation clan in the game (PiS).
The only reason why i even bought that crap is because of the competitive play.
But thanks to DICE that's a joke.

But i ll make you a deal.
I ll come to bf3 if you come to section 8 prejudice and take up to 4 people with you and play against just me.
And we ll see if high TTK means you cant take a group of clueless n00bies down on your own :)

As for the video i dont know what to say really.
Posting a video where you force your opinion and the only comments on it,that are not your own,all disagree with you,hardly helps to prove your point pall :lol:

[Stew]

If you played section 8 for more than 2 hours and you werent horrible in it(because thinking lock on can help you means you are horrible in it)you would know lock on is useless since it can be COMPLETELY countered by a jammer beacon.
I am no fan of it beeing put into the game,but since the game really rewards shooting skill and the shooting is difficult,the developers decided to put it in for the console n00bs to have a chance to kill someone in mid air.

I havent played bf3 in a while but sure we can have a few rounds(i am Dellta_34).
I was actually a competitive player in this game and i am part of the bulgarian national team.
I have also played a lot of ESL versus with probably the best croation clan in the game (PiS).
The only reason why i even bought that crap is because of the competitive play.
But thanks to DICE that's a joke.

But i ll make you a deal.
I ll come to bf3 if you come to section 8 prejudice and take up to 4 people with you and play against just me.
And we ll see if high TTK means you cant take a group of clueless n00bies down on your own :)

As for the video i dont know what to say really.
Posting a video where you force your opinion and the only comments on it,that are not your own,all disagree with you,hardly helps to prove your point pall :lol:

Youll take 4 bots with ease their is only bots in servers now in sections 8 and More LAG is involve more problems will come up

Already in BF3 i have hundreads of footage on my comp thats proove this entire magazine to kill someone and BF3 have a very low time to kills

High time to kills in one vs 1 is fine High time to kill in a game like planetside 2 will ruins it

Big outfit will Zerg the game and the game will loose $ and the game will have no more suport

if we want this game to suceed it must be well balanced around the scales of it

higher time to kills way more chance to be kill in outnumber senarios because they will make 10 % damage each they are 10 the time they shot at you you will not even able to make 20 % on one of them

wanting high time to kills is a defensive way to think having a medium low time to kill is a agressive way of thinking Quick fast pace way of thinking i will kill them before they kill me !

Having high time to kill is i gonna get shot then notice out whats happen try to flee and come back after !

The hitbox is the way to take apart Skills and acurate player from noob making lower part of the body High ttk and higher part of the body Low TTK balanced thing out and proove who as the better aiming and the most skills

FPS is all about aming and reflexs

[indirect]

I think the current ttk is too low for my tastes, but that's just my opinion. I don't think they will make it higher, though.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

That's what beta is for my friend.

[maddoggg]

Youll take 4 bots with ease their is only bots in servers now in sections 8 and More LAG is involve more problems will come up

Already in BF3 i have hundreads of footage on my comp thats proove this entire magazine to kill someone and BF3 have a very low time to kills

High time to kills in one vs 1 is fine High time to kill in a game like planetside 2 will ruins it

Big outfit will Zerg the game and the game will loose $ and the game will have no more suport

if we want this game to suceed it must be well balanced around the scales of it

higher time to kills way more chance to be kill in outnumber senarios because they will make 10 % damage each they are 10 the time they shot at you you will not even able to make 20 % on one of them

wanting high time to kills is a defensive way to think having a medium low time to kill is a agressive way of thinking Quick fast pace way of thinking i will kill them before they kill me !

Having high time to kill is i gonna get shot then notice out whats happen try to flee and come back after !

The hitbox is the way to take apart Skills and acurate player from noob making lower part of the body High ttk and higher part of the body Low TTK balanced thing out and proove who as the better aiming and the most skills

FPS is all about aming and reflexs

The game is dead now and i havent played for months,but if you actually wanna know i use to play when the server were full of people.
I was able to join the loosing team,turn the game around,join the team that is now loosing and turn it around again(on a 32 player server).
I am still ranked in top 5 players in the world,so please feel free to come and test me :).

In prejudice a single extremely good player can really turn the outcome of a battle.
This is a game in which if you use skills and team work a small number of people can dominate the zerg.

Dont think high TTK means zerg wins just because of YOUR inability to adapt.
I am sorry friend,but in high TTK games if you want to stop the zerg,camping a corner and hoping they pass you by so you can get easy kills from behind,isnt going to cut it...

[Methonius]

Honestly, I liked planetside 1's TTK but I think maybe a bit lower would be perfect. Definitely agree it shouldn't be anywhere near CODs or BF3s TTK but maybe close to Bad Company 2s. I thought Bad Company 2s TTK was right on for some reason it felt just right. I also think the Vehicles definitely need a TTK boost i don't think tanks should die from 2 shots from another tank in a massive battle tanks will all be dead in a matter of seconds if that's the case. It's e3 footage though so they might of did that on purpose to get people to try out all the vehicles quicker.

[frigamache]

The high time to kill of PS1 was a major turn-off for most fps fans, in addition to the subscription fee of course.

A lota A-D strafe dancing nonsense.

Tanks were impossible to kill, AV infantry weapons became Anti-Max exclusively. The loan exception was the NC weapon, which was due to lame Ihidebehindrockandlolflybywire missiles. The old TTK made infantry combat retarded anywhere you could bring a vehicle.

I see the: "imagine what its like when there's 9,000 people shooting at you with this current TTk!" argument plenty.

Needs more: "well I'll also have 8,999 people on my side shooting back" in response.

Bottom line - what was shown at e3 looked great

[Gandhi]

Tanks were impossible to kill, AV infantry weapons became Anti-Max exclusively. The loan exception was the NC weapon, which was due to lame Ihidebehindrockandlolflybywire missiles. The old TTK made infantry combat retarded anywhere you could bring a vehicle.

So you'd be happy with tanks losing 1 on 1 against infantry? Kind of defeats the purpose of pulling a tank don't you think?

As infantry you needed to work together to bring down a tank. One AV weapon alone was almost useless, 3 or 4 working together was enough to bring down any vehicle. Teamwork man. Besides everyone knows the Lancer was the best of the bunch.

[Sledgecrushr]

Yeah I think the ttk is a tad too quick.

[goneglockin]

BFBC2 only seems to take more shots to kill than in BF3 because you routinely saw 1 out of every 3 or 4 just flat out be a dud. I've spent a lot of time on that game as xdarc and it was not uncommon to see blood gushing out of an enemies head without doing any damage to them. Horrible game. Surprised I could stand it as long as I did.

[Aurmanite]

Tanks were impossible to kill, AV infantry weapons became Anti-Max exclusively. The loan exception was the NC weapon, which was due to lame Ihidebehindrockandlolflybywire missiles.

This is so very very wrong.
Ever play with a friend or two?
Ever use a jammer?

[Bags]

This is so very very wrong.
Ever play with a friend or two?
Ever use a jammer?

This, seriously. Maybe TTK could be brought down a little, but I will be very sad if paper tanks see launch.

[Mr DeCastellac]

Don't want to read through 10 pages of people's testimonies, so I'll just toss in my two cents.

I think the TTK is a bit low as of E3. Hopefully it was just because there were only a couple hundred people playing, and I really hope they lengthen the TTK for huge battles.

PS1 definitely did the TTK just right. I think that's one of the main reasons I don't play Counter Strike, Call of Duty, or Battlefield; they all have really fast TTKs. TF2 also did it just right.

I don't know, I guess I just like medium-long fights, where you don't get shot and killed by the time you can see the enemy and react. Plus, respawning every two minutes (or less, depending on the game) gets really dull and pulls away from the immersion.

[ParisTeta]

When they announced PS2 there were to things, two pieces information, i wanted to know before bieng excited, first, how to get a player base? (aka F2P, first time i cheer to that choice) the other ist, will it take forever to kill someone like in PS1? Well i dosn`t and that is great.

Yes it takes skill to constant aim in a higher TTK scenario.
Ambush your enemy, or a group, does also.

The right TTK is middle of that, i great ambush should reduce the chance to win in even vs even alot, but if you do it in underdog position, you have big chance to fail.

The TTK now, as it seems, it quite right.

[Bogarty]

I personally thought the TTK in PS1 needed work. In some cases, it was too high and in others, too low.

E3 looked good to me. I'd say make the infantry TTK just a HAIR longer, and I literally mean a hair. Tanks should have a 1/4 increase in TTK.

[Aurmanite]

I think that the TTK looked spot on in the E3 build.

Everyone could absorb a decent amount of damage below the neck. Headshots had the right lethality.

We saw a lot of people dying because they had no idea what they were doing. Watch day 3 footage of Montez going wild as a light assault. He took a lickin and kept on kickin...ass.

[Bags]

I think that the TTK looked spot on in the E3 build.

Everyone could absorb a decent amount of damage below the neck. Headshots had the right lethality.

We saw a lot of people dying because they had no idea what they were doing. Watch day 3 footage of Montez going wild as a light assault. He took a lickin and kept on kickin...ass.

You could absorb like 3 bullets below the neck as HA. lol

Everyone is just gonna whore lmg and spray everywhere and get massive kills.

[Shotokanguy]

It looks...

fast.

I can see instances where it is clearly slower than the average FPS of today...but this is PlanetSide we're talking about.

Seeing how quickly players are going down right now makes me nervous. There are going to be a LOT of potential threats to kill you in this game. It's not going to be fun if you can react to threats the same way you could in PS1.

It's completely impossible to determine how the game will work right now, so I will happily wait to judge until the beta...but I can at least say right now that it looks awful fast.

[Ohanka]

Too fast in my opinion

Battlefield 2 or 2142 and Planetside 1 had good Time to Kill

[JHendy]

Too fast in my opinion

Battlefield 2 or 2142 and Planetside 1 had good Time to Kill

There's a big difference between BF2/2142's TTK and PS1's.

I think BF2's TTK worked out very nicely.

[Exidius]

Don t we overlook that killing the threat takes less time too. Because of that, player skill has a greater Impact (Taking advantage of the situation killing a few enemys fast, before they get to cover and even out the playing field). Or tactical advantages (ambushes for example), which are in my opinion something that ps2 should reward more then just "It s a minor advantage". Otherwise how should an outnumbered squad win? Head on they`d loose and that s ok but if they outplay their enemy, even if outnumbered they should win.Wich is imo the right way. War might be about numbers but also about tactical and strategical thoughts.
Edit: Btw first post, nice to be here and sry for the typos allready late here in germany

[BattsTR]

Normally im all for fast ttks. In games like BF, Ghost, MW it fits cause those are round based games. In a game like Planetside I'm for slower ttk's. That goes for infantry and vehicles. I think in order to truly push the teamwork angle you gotta have to have some incentive to team up. Especially when killing a vehicle. It should take alot of infantry/teamwork to kill a tank, or a vehicle designed to kill one. That was a cool aspect of PS1. Infantry ruled indoors, vehicles ruled outdoors, and the ones who didn't pull vehicles at huge fights and tried to run to the base got farmed.

[Stew]

Don t we overlook that killing the threat takes less time too. Because of that, player skill has a greater Impact (Taking advantage of the situation killing a few enemys fast, before they get to cover and even out the playing field). Or tactical advantages (ambushes for example), which are in my opinion something that ps2 should reward more then just "It s a minor advantage". Otherwise how should an outnumbered squad win? Head on they`d loose and that s ok but if they outplay their enemy, even if outnumbered they should win.Wich is imo the right way. War might be about numbers but also about tactical and strategical thoughts.
Edit: Btw first post, nice to be here and sry for the typos allready late here in germany

Higher is the TTK mostlikely the Outnumbers and Zerg tactics will work and be unbeatable !

Low or Medium Low TTK will allow better players to defeat outnumbers Zerg

The solution as i said multiple time to set apart good from bad players and outnumbers vs skills IS ALL IN A PROPER HITBOX

Head shot = Very high damage
chest vital shot = high damage
Hip shot = Medium low damage
legs shot = Low damage
Feets = Very low damage

This way you set a part the good players with great acuracy vs noobs

Yes some will say noobs can have lucky headshot yes its true but most of the time 90 % of the time as least they will not get lucky lol

And mostlikely the skills players will get proper chest shot and headshot at least 50 to 90 % of the time

[Stew]

Normally im all for fast ttks. In games like BF, Ghost, MW it fits cause those are round based games. In a game like Planetside I'm for slower ttk's. That goes for infantry and vehicles. I think in order to truly push the teamwork angle you gotta have to have some incentive to team up. Especially when killing a vehicle. It should take alot of infantry/teamwork to kill a tank, or a vehicle designed to kill one. That was a cool aspect of PS1. Infantry ruled indoors, vehicles ruled outdoors, and the ones who didn't pull vehicles at huge fights and tried to run to the base got farmed.

vehicules in planetside if equiped with anti vehicules do not make thats much damage agains infantry only the Anti infantry weapons on vehicules are doing huge damage on infantry

All the vehicules balanced work thats way and also MAX weapons if a MAx ran into infantry with Anti vehicules dual weapons he will not make thats much damage to the infantry

this is the way they have balanced thing so

the TTK like it is is perfect its all based on the equipement and weapons and conter equipement and weapons not on a single and unic parametres planetside 2 is more complex than thats

[OutlawDr]

I posted this in that other TTK thread.

If 10+ people are shooting at you, it doesn't matter if it takes 3 shots or 10 shots. Your are going down before you even know what happened. In fact, all these examples I keep reading of the poor lone player stepping outside and getting instantly killed by 500+ players doesn't make a case for high TTK. It makes a case to not cluelessly step out into a 500+ base battle without a clear plan. In light of such a cluster f*ck going on, I think the player's efforts could probably be spent better elsewhere away from the meat grinder. Maybe with a squad taking on a more manageable and profitable objective.

The pros of high TTK is that it promotes strafing gunnery skills and long circle strafing duels. Not exactly my cup of tea, but I can understand why people like it. It gives players more time to react to a situation, and gives them time to respond if someone gets a bead on them first. But if hes getting shot at by more then one person, this becomes marginal. However, the main con for high ttk imo, is that it can give players too much time to react if set too high. Players are punished less for bad positioning and getting flanked.

Pros for low TTK are that it promotes positioning and flanking. It rewards players for good positioning and getting the jump on someone. This is a pro or con depending on your preference, or latency too. A player can not just haphazardly walk into the unknown area and still expect to to react properly to someone that pops out from better position. Like some here have said, it allows for smaller groups to take on larger groups with use of smarter positioning and flanking. A large, unorganized blob of players needs more time to react, and giving them that time gives their numbers too much of the advantage imo. Con is that you don't see those long strafing duels.

Like I've said in this thread, I don't mind something in the "middle", but a bit more towards the faster side. We saw in the videos multiple times an LA taking up to 6 shots before going down, which would translate roughly to 3-4 hits the head before dying (assuming a 1.5 multiplier). This is very close to the "middle". There are some oddities like a HA seemingly only taking 2 hits from a carbine cycler (can only assume it was close range hits to the head), but this might just be an alpha value artifact.

[burnoutbob]

i prefer higher TTK than in Totalbiscuits videos because it encourages more teamplay and not lone wolf tactics (groups stick together to take out targets more easily/lone wolfs should not be able to take out 2/3/4 people at once)
the ttk seemed fairly low in the videos i have seen, maybe it shouldnt be as high as ps1 (even though it was awesome) it shouldnt be as low as it is right now
around 10% more bullets/time to kill would be perfect imo

[Stew]

I posted this in that other TTK thread.



Pros for low TTK are that are that it promotes positioning and flanking. It rewards players for good positioning and getting the jump on someone. This is a pro or con depending on your preference, or latency too. A player can not just haphazardly walk into the unknown area and still expect to to react properly to someone that pops out from better position. Like some here have said, it allows for smaller groups to take on larger groups with use of smarter positioning and flanking. A large, unorganized blob of players needs more time to react, and giving them that time gives their numbers too much of the advantage imo. Con is that you don't see those long strafing duels.

.

This is perfectly true and reflect the reality of huge scales battles and thats why i think High ttk will give to much advantage to Zerg tactics and will also ruins any atempts for infiltration operations etc..

But i could ad not just jump and suprise people but also have better reflexs and aiming will grant you to wins over overnumbers noobs

[GreatMazinkaise]

This is perfectly true and reflect the reality of huge scales battles and thats why i think High ttk will give to much advantage to Zerg tactics and will also ruins any atempts for infiltration operations etc..

Y'know, you mention the Zerg an awful lot for someone who from all evidence certainly was one of the Zerglings (and as we all know, Zerglings are two for one)...

[Stew]

i prefer higher TTK than in Totalbiscuits videos because it encourages more teamplay and not lone wolf tactics (groups stick together to take out targets more easily/lone wolfs should not be able to take out 2/3/4 people at once)
the ttk seemed fairly low in the videos i have seen, maybe it shouldnt be as high as ps1 (even though it was awesome) it shouldnt be as low as it is right now
around 10% more bullets/time to kill would be perfect imo

It will not encourage teamplay it will force ZERG tactics it will force people to run in a massive group of people in order to survive and if your outnumbers wich will happen frequently since ps2 is a MMO sandbox so you cant be always in a fair numbers

Huge outfit will ruins the game making everyones who just join the game to have a nice fps experience will find the game disapointing and will quit

Forcing team work at the point thats u cant win a 2 vs 1 figth due to the high ttk is a bad idea and a bad designed choice !

Low ttk allow better players to win over aweful players this is the way skills based shooter work

Also higby as state at E3 the most important game show out there thats they encorage team work with all the options comunications , class systhem , but they do not force the team work

and its the best way to suceed in this type of game if someones want to just run around and rak up some kills its is rigth to do it because this guys will ad the players based will suport the game with $$ and will ensure the game will be alive and will have a great suport from SOE for the upcoming years !

[Vetto]

It determines for me, I guess as long as it not PS1 Slow I am ok with it, cause good god some time people would not FREAKING DROP!

[SKYeXile]

you can argue that low ttk or high ttk is better or worse allday, while you argue low ttk is better for higher skilled players because they can kill more people at once, i agree, to an extent, but ther eis a point where to low and you favour the players with bad aim again and spraying and preying, if all they need to do is land 2 shots they can just spray away and get kills.

[SKYeXile]

It determines for me, I guess as long as it not PS1 Slow I am ok with it, cause good god some time people would not FREAKING DROP!

that's planetside for ya, iv emptied like 55 rounds point blank into people sometimes before they have dropped.

[Stew]

you can argue that low ttk or high ttk is better or worse allday, while you argue low ttk is better for higher skilled players because they can kill more people at once, i agree, to an extent, but ther eis a point where to low and you favour the players with bad aim again and spraying and preying, if all they need to do is land 2 shots they can just spray away and get kills.



Low ttk have to be balanced around the HITBOX this way you ensure better aim = WIN

Head shot = Very high damage
chest vital shot = high damage
Hip shot = Medium low damage
legs shot = Low damage
Feets = Very low damage

so better aim = win better speed acrurracy + skills = win over outnumber

[maddoggg]

Stew,since you wanna keep forcing your opinion that high TTK would mean insta win for the zerg,than i ll just tell again that's just YOUR opinion because of YOUR inability to do so in a high TTK games.

If your understanding of skills in a game is to camp behind a corner and atack people from behind for easy kills,than i understand why it would be so hard for you to imagine how a skilled player in high TTK games can take out a lot of the zerg.

I guess you never saw what a good player can do in games like quake 3,tribes or section 8.
I wont use section 8 for example,because of your misplaced hate for it caused by YOUR inability to comprihend anything about it(you spamed me with 6 replies on youtube in under 30 seconds lol? ^^),so i ll just give quake 3 for example.
I am personaly not a very skilled quake 3 player,but i have seen really skilled players joining a full server and just dominating everyone.
However this is not COD,it takes skill to do so,not everyone can do it.

[Gandhi]

Generally the lower the TTK the less skill the game takes, because it becomes more about who sees the other person first rather than who can land shots more consistently. Same goes for headshots, the lower the TTK the less important they become.

[MacXXcaM]

(you spamed me with 6 replies on youtube in under 30 seconds lol? ^^)

Lol, same about me... I think Stew needs a girlfriend ;P

[Praetor]

Head shot = Very high damage
chest vital shot = high damage
Hip shot = Medium low damage
legs shot = Low damage
Feets = Very low damage


Like the sound of that!

[Trafalgar]

In non-MMO FPSes, I tend to prefer Halo's longer TTK and regenerating shields over CoD and the like with their fast TTK.

For PS2, I would be concerned that if defenders can respawn in the location they are defending with no delay, and immediately run back to rejoin their comrades who are still defending, the higher the TTK the greater the advantage to whoever has the shortest distance to travel, which would likely be the defense unless the attackers can park a gal right next to the base and respawn there repeatedly as they push back the defenders.

Is there some way to suppress respawning without having to take out every defender repeatedly to get to the cloning/resurrection tubes or the like? (Perhaps using infiltrators or an EMP?)

(Of course, it should be balanced, not weighted in favor of either side, assuming equal skill and amount of players (which is unlikely, but useful for balancing...))

[GuyShep]

Like the sound of that!

All you really need is headshot damage and bodyshot damage. Also, anyone who treats getting shot in the foot or shin more lightly than getting shot in any other non-vital organ needs to get shot.


In non-MMO FPSes, I tend to prefer Halo's longer TTK and regenerating shields over CoD and the like with their fast TTK.

For PS2, I would be concerned that if defenders can respawn in the location they are defending with no delay, and immediately run back to rejoin their comrades who are still defending, the higher the TTK the greater the advantage to whoever has the shortest distance to travel, which would likely be the defense unless the attackers can park a gal right next to the base and respawn there repeatedly as they push back the defenders.

Is there some way to suppress respawning without having to take out every defender repeatedly to get to the cloning/resurrection tubes or the like? (Perhaps using infiltrators or an EMP?)

(Of course, it should be balanced, not weighted in favor of either side, assuming equal skill and amount of players (which is unlikely, but useful for balancing...))

Halo's TTK worked well because of a mix of spawn times, map size, and movement speed. If a game like PS2 had high TTK, it would be extremely difficult to capture an enemy base, while the gap between good and bad players would be much larger.

[Trafalgar]

Halo's TTK worked well because of a mix of spawn times, map size, and movement speed. If a game like PS2 had high TTK, it would be extremely difficult to capture an enemy base, while the gap between good and bad players would be much larger.

Which is exactly my concern with raising it.

[Ratstomper]

Halo's TTK worked well because of a mix of spawn times, map size, and movement speed. If a game like PS2 had high TTK, it would be extremely difficult to capture an enemy base, while the gap between good and bad players would be much larger.

So, why can't we just find a happy medium TTK? Why does it have to be "high" or "low"? This is something that can (and should and probably will) be tweaked to a level that works for the game.

[Forsaken One]

How about this.

TTK without shield up=3 body shots to die. give or take one for empire weapon damage difference. NC 2, VS 3, TR 4.

TTK on the shield itself. (NOT counting the non shield part.)= 3 shots no matter what.

Total thats 6 shots needed give or take one for empire wise weapons.

Lets face it, if you get hit by 3 stray bullets before your shield starts to regenerate someones gunning for you.

[Stew]

Like the sound of that!

glad you like it skills » numbers it it always be the way to balanced and set apart great fps players with reflexs and aiming skills and noobs

HItbox is the way to balance thing not buffing the life like crazy if you boost the life youll also have to boost up the magazine etc.. and the game will become less like planetside 2 and more like dust514 WICH IS REALLY BAD FEEL BAD AND ANOYING

Head shot = Very high damage
chest vital shot = high damage
Hip shot = Medium low damage
legs shot = Low damage
Feets = Very low damage

[Stew]

Low TTK only works in COD style games because the maps are small and enclosed. In PS2 it would be a complete travesty. Hence why Battlefield 3 is the worst FPS ever made. Large, open, outdoors maps with lots of bushes + low TTK = epic gameplay fiasco.

MAG a game with 256 players have a medium low ttk thats mean legs shot do little damage chestshot do medium low and medium high damage and headshot do High very high damage !

MAG - [)B(] in Domination - YouTube

Head shot = Very high damage
chest vital shot = high damage
Hip shot = Medium low damage
legs shot = Low damage
Feets = Very low damage

[Surgio]

Most of my favorite shooters have longer than average TTK. Planetside, C&C Renegade, and Bad Company 2 (normal mode) were all extremely fun games because they gave ambushed soldiers at least the opportunity to react before being killed. This doesn't mean that there was enough time in these games to spin around, counterattack, and kill the ambusher, but this mechanic did allow the defender to at the very least turn a corner to drop LOS.

The short TTK in BF3 was my biggest problem with it. Whoever saw the other person first won...9 times out of 10. I didn't find much fun in that. I'm glad to see that PS2 is going for a slightly longer TTK than most games, but still keeping a fast pace to the game. We'll see how this pans out in beta.

[Stew]

Most of my favorite shooters have longer than average TTK. Planetside, C&C Renegade, and Bad Company 2 (normal mode) were all extremely fun games because they gave ambushed soldiers at least the opportunity to react before being killed. This doesn't mean that there was enough time in these games to spin around, counterattack, and kill the ambusher, but this mechanic did allow the defender to at the very least turn a corner to drop LOS.

The short TTK in BF3 was my biggest problem with it. Whoever saw the other person first won...9 times out of 10. I didn't find much fun in that. I'm glad to see that PS2 is going for a slightly longer TTK than most games, but still keeping a fast pace to the game. We'll see how this pans out in beta.

No ones here ask for a 3 bullet in legs COD LAME stupid crap

We ask to keep the TTK as it is and its pretty much on the level you talk about BFBC 2 or MAG

Its a medium high damage ! or Medium low TTK if you prefer ! DUST514 have a high ttk and look at most video the combat are a joke and simply make the game slugish and unresponsive and bad to play

[GreatMazinkaise]

No ones here ask for a 3 bullet in legs COD LAME stupid crap

We ask to keep the TTK as it is and its pretty much on the level you talk about BFBC 2 or MAG

Its a medium high damage ! or Medium low TTK if you prefer ! DUST514 have a high ttk and look at most video the combat are a joke and simply make the game slugish and unresponsive and bad to play

Bad Company 2 is sluggish and unresponsive to play... it feels like I'm walking in chewing gum.

Low TTK + slow movement is apparently the recipe for gaming success!

[Stew]

Bad Company 2 is sluggish and unresponsive to play... it feels like I'm walking in chewing gum.

Low TTK + slow movement is apparently the recipe for gaming success!

So dude keep play planetside 1 youll hate planetside 2 because the ttk isnt going to change and the moovement caracter in MAG are far to be sluggish and have a medium low ttk Not a COD low ttk

you probably dont even know whats your talking about

the last game you have play is ps1 and conterstike 1.6 ?

[Stew]

Bad Company 2 is sluggish and unresponsive to play... it feels like I'm walking in chewing gum.

Low TTK + slow movement is apparently the recipe for gaming success!

Also you know why people as been blow away by planetside 2 and ad a blast playing it at e3 ?

because the controle feel responsive the caracter moovements were great and the ttk was satisfaying Why would they change a winner recipe ? Fo me the game look almost perfect as it is yes some improovement need to be made here and their but not changing the entire pace and combat feel of the game HELL NO

[Stew]

Stew,since you wanna keep forcing your opinion that high TTK would mean insta win for the zerg,than i ll just tell again that's just YOUR opinion because of YOUR inability to do so in a high TTK games.

If your understanding of skills in a game is to camp behind a corner and atack people from behind for easy kills,than i understand why it would be so hard for you to imagine how a skilled player in high TTK games can take out a lot of the zerg.

I guess you never saw what a good player can do in games like quake 3,tribes or section 8.
.

ive play tribe quake and also section 8 and i do not hate it i just find the comparaison irrevelant theyre is No Zerging and the game and the pace of the game caracter moovement is totally different


When i state high ttk = zerg win its factual not base on a opinion ... an opinion its saying like i think it can be better to do this or that thats a opinions

But saying if high ttk = Zerg will always win its a matter of NUMBERS calculation its a matter of possibility calculation

if you make 5dps ( if we considers you dont have to reload ) and you shot someones whith 200 % health it will take 40 sec to kill one guys

If they are 10 agains you even if you have better aim it will take 40 seconde to kill just one of them and they will have a total of 5 x 10 dps 50 dps it will take around 4 secondes to kill you

in a low ttk senarios you make like 20 dps and the guy have 100% life youll be able to kill one in 5 second with half of a magazine So even if they finally killyou at least youll be able to take out few of them before they others got you

instead in a High ttk you will not be able to kill one of them and all the others will be able to regroup and jump on you and thats suck and this is factual not a opinion


ive take some exagerated exemple to make you see clearly the picture

Hope you understand now

My opinion is this Medium low ttk is better and more fun in a game designed like planetside 2 than a high ttk emo like Dust514

[GreatMazinkaise]

So dude keep play planetside 1 youll hate planetside 2 because the ttk isnt going to change and the moovement caracter in MAG are far to be sluggish and have a medium low ttk Not a COD low ttk

you probably dont even know whats your talking about

the last game you have play is ps1 and conterstike 1.6 ?

MAG is an aim-assisted console shooter... where the hell is the comparison?

I don't want to play Planetside (I probably un-subbed before you even started playing from the sound of it), I want to play Planetside 2. It's got bigger environments (not the 16x16 kilometers that it should've been), more stuff to fight over, weapon variety, customizations, more players per side, a resource system, and lots of other great stuff that would've made the first game better.

Very few people want the original's extremely high TTK, but the current incarnation is way too fast. MAX units are probably the only "infantry" that have a properly balanced TTK, and that's a cause for genuine concern. Ambushes should grant an edge, but not win fights in of themselves. As has been said repeatedly, anyone with functioning fingers and eyes can get a kill if it only requires a few shots (which is why generic modern shooters have low ttks), but aiming consistently at a moving target actually requires skill.

Of course, you're the board's biggest troll, so you are utterly incapable of understanding any of this.

[Stew]

MAG is an aim-assisted console shooter... where the hell is the comparison?

I don't want to play Planetside (I probably un-subbed before you even started playing from the sound of it), I want to play Planetside 2. It's got bigger environments (not the 16x16 kilometers that it should've been), more stuff to fight over, weapon variety, customizations, more players per side, a resource system, and lots of other great stuff that would've made the first game better.

Very few people want the original's extremely high TTK, but the current incarnation is way too fast. MAX units are probably the only "infantry" that have a properly balanced TTK, and that's a cause for genuine concern. Ambushes should grant an edge, but not win fights in of themselves. As has been said repeatedly, anyone with functioning fingers and eyes can get a kill if it only requires a few shots (which is why generic modern shooters have low ttks), but aiming consistently at a moving target actually requires skill.

Of course, you're the board's biggest troll, so you are utterly incapable of understanding any of this.

agains ignorance MAG as no aim assist this isnt COD !

bfbc 2 on console and also MAG as no online aim assist so at this point you proove thats you know nothing about the game so ill pass

[GuyShep]

Head shot = Very high damage
chest vital shot = high damage
Hip shot = Medium low damage
legs shot = Low damage
Feets = Very low damage

You don't need to have things set up to that degree. All you need is headshot damage and bodyshot damage. Also, I don't think the threshold of pain is higher the farther the injury occurs from the brain.

[Stew]

anyone with functioning fingers and eyes can get a kill if it only requires a few shots (which is why generic modern shooters have low ttks), but aiming consistently at a moving target actually requires skill.

.

thats Why (( instagib )) is consider one the the most HARDCORE PRO MODE and its a one hit kill weapon in quake and unreal ???

Reflexs and quick response is a huge skills also the proper HITBOX aiming skills

it required more skills to shoot in the head instead of shooting in the legs

So yeah i dont ask and ive never ask for a very low TTK COD IMO !

Ive ask for a medium low ttk like it is rigth now like mag is While shooting in the head its quick dead while shooting in the legs is slow dead while shooting in the chest is medium dead

thats it

HITBOX = Skills = WIN = balanced = set aprart acurate players

aim tracking isnt skills that much

Quake Live Amazing Come back!! IEM5 ZeRo4 vs dkt - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m2A0ArlLDQ)

is this seams like a high ttk to you ? Is this take more time than ps2 e3 footage to kill ? even with extra health ?

Ill say no due to the weapons damage and dps

[GreatMazinkaise]

Quake Live Amazing Come back!! IEM5 ZeRo4 vs dkt - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m2A0ArlLDQ)

is this seams like a high ttk to you ? Is this take more time than ps2 e3 footage to kill ? even with extra health ?

Ill say no due to the weapons damage and dps

The TTK in that game is too low, but the movement is much better than at least BC2. Obviously the weapons are not even remotely similar to Planetside in how they function, so it's not a fair comparison.

There is no existing game that incorporates headshots, bullets, and movement in a pleasing manner. Your choices are fast fragging, move through molasses while dying to headshots, and Tribes:Ascend which has perfect accuracy SMGs and jetpacks. None of which work for Planetside, which itself had too high TTKs.

Give me a game where I can move, leading my shots matters, TTKs are short enough that most kills aren't killsteals but long enough that getting ambushed isn't insta-dead, and at least vaguely interesting bullet mechanics, and I'm on board.

Generic modern shooters don't have it and arena shooters don't have it... PS2 is perfectly capable of having it.

[Trafalgar]

AvP: Gold (The first AvP game, not the more recent one) was pretty fun multiplayer, either 3 humans and an alien (especially on the nostromo level (http://weyland-ycorporation.wikia.com/wiki/Nostromo_AvP) (not to be confused with the AvP2 nostromo level (http://weyland-ycorporation.wikia.com/wiki/Nostromo_AvP2), which was set inside the Nostromo), possibly scaling up the numbers if you had more people), or at least one player on all three sides (predators being overpowered if they were facing only humans or only aliens, but more balanced if they had to fight both aliens and humans (and/or also had to fight other predators)).

When playing an alien you generally used stealth, for example: dropping from a pitch-black cavern ceiling to land behind the last marine in a group of marines, stabbing him in the head with your tail (which you have to hold down the button to 'charge up' before stabbing with) or biting his head off before leaping back into the darkness.

It was a nice change from "run around at top speed and shoot anyone you see while hopping up and down" gameplay, and I really enjoyed it, personally. I'd personally be quite happy if infiltrators could trade their sniper rifles for wall walking.

[maddoggg]

ive play tribe quake and also section 8 and i do not hate it i just find the comparaison irrevelant theyre is No Zerging and the game and the pace of the game caracter moovement is totally different


When i state high ttk = zerg win its factual not base on a opinion ... an opinion its saying like i think it can be better to do this or that thats a opinions

But saying if high ttk = Zerg will always win its a matter of NUMBERS calculation its a matter of possibility calculation

if you make 5dps ( if we considers you dont have to reload ) and you shot someones whith 200 % health it will take 40 sec to kill one guys

If they are 10 agains you even if you have better aim it will take 40 seconde to kill just one of them and they will have a total of 5 x 10 dps 50 dps it will take around 4 secondes to kill you

in a low ttk senarios you make like 20 dps and the guy have 100% life youll be able to kill one in 5 second with half of a magazine So even if they finally killyou at least youll be able to take out few of them before they others got you

instead in a High ttk you will not be able to kill one of them and all the others will be able to regroup and jump on you and thats suck and this is factual not a opinion


ive take some exagerated exemple to make you see clearly the picture

Hope you understand now

My opinion is this Medium low ttk is better and more fun in a game designed like planetside 2 than a high ttk emo like Dust514

The reason you are rong is the following(i be using a very high TTK game for example:s8 prejudice):
In a high TTK game like this,a good player needs 2 seconds to kill you.
If you use slow rate of fire weapon that are hard to hit with,you need just 2-3 shots and if you use an assault rifle and you have like a 50-60%+ accuracy you can also drop people in just 2 seconds.

A bad player needs 40+ seconds to kill you.
In prejudice for example,it takes about 20 bullets from an assalt rifle to kill you.That's just under 2 seconds.
The reason people think it takes 30 seconds and 100+ bullets to kill someone is because they miss a lot.


That video you gave of quake 3 is A PERFECT example of that.
The guy killed the other guy in 2 seconds.
But did you notice how he did it?
He put 4 rockets into him.
Rockets have slow rate of fire,travel slow and are generaly hard to hit with.
He put all of his shots dead on target.

However in quake 3 it takes like 20-30 bullets from machine gun to kill someone(assuming you dont miss a single one,but just like i prejudice people miss a lot).
So a n00b player in quake 3 using an easy and spamable hitscan weapon like the machine gun may need 30+ seconds to kill you.

And this is actually why with high TTK a skilled player can stop several n00bs.
You pick a good angle from which no more than 1-2 of them can shoot at you at the same time,you make a kill and quickly retreat and change your spot,than you go at them again to pick another kill or two and repeat.
Ofcourse you are gonna get pwned if you stay in the midle of the firefight tacking the dmg to the face and trying to out gun 10 people.

Also i hope you make a difference between zerg and organized team work.
By zerg i understand random people gathering together like sheep and atacking a base without much coordinated team work.
You can easily take out those people if you are really good at the game.

But if a squad is working together,communicating,moving as one unit,non stop covering each other and using focus fire and drawing the fire in order to save a wounded team m8 and give him a chance to heal,than ofcourse that you are gonna get pwned by a squad like this if you play solo.
And that's the way it should be.

I am not suggesting that ps2 should have TTK times of games like tribes or prejudice,where it takes 20+ bullets to kill someone.
However if they change it from 7-8 to 10,12 or 15 tops,that would be a really nice change in my opinion.

[Stew]

The reason you are rong is the following(i be using a very high TTK game for example:s8 prejudice):
In a high TTK game like this,a good player needs 2 seconds to kill you.
If you use slow rate of fire weapon that are hard to hit with,you need just 2-3 shots and if you use an assault rifle and you have like a 50-60%+ accuracy you can also drop people in just 2 seconds.

A bad player needs 40+ seconds to kill you.
In prejudice for example,it takes about 20 bullets from an assalt rifle to kill you.That's just under 2 seconds.
The reason people think it takes 30 seconds and 100+ bullets to kill someone is because they miss a lot.


That video you gave of quake 3 is A PERFECT example of that.
The guy killed the other guy in 2 seconds.
But did you notice how he did it?
He put 4 rockets into him.
Rockets have slow rate of fire,travel slow and are generaly hard to hit with.
He put all of his shots dead on target.

However in quake 3 it takes like 20-30 bullets from machine gun to kill someone(assuming you dont miss a single one,but just like i prejudice people miss a lot).
So a n00b player in quake 3 using an easy and spamable hitscan weapon like the machine gun may need 30+ seconds to kill you.

And this is actually why with high TTK a skilled player can stop several n00bs.
You pick a good angle from which no more than 1-2 of them can shoot at you at the same time,you make a kill and quickly retreat and change your spot,than you go at them again to pick another kill or two and repeat.
Ofcourse you are gonna get pwned if you stay in the midle of the firefight tacking the dmg to the face and trying to out gun 10 people.

Also i hope you make a difference between zerg and organized team work.
By zerg i understand random people gathering together like sheep and atacking a base without much coordinated team work.
You can easily take out those people if you are really good at the game.

But if a squad is working together,communicating,moving as one unit,non stop covering each other and using focus fire and drawing the fire in order to save a wounded team m8 and give him a chance to heal,than ofcourse that you are gonna get pwned by a squad like this if you play solo.
And that's the way it should be.

I am not suggesting that ps2 should have TTK times of games like tribes or prejudice,where it takes 20+ bullets to kill someone.
However if they change it from 7-8 to 10,12 or 15 tops,that would be a really nice change in my opinion.

section 8 prejudice ... section 8 prejudice

Ok dude section 8 prejudice as nothing to do with planetside to

their is no bullet drop in section 8 their is no recoils their is NO balistics

its just an average (( global agenda )) in first person

the comparaison cant be made

Planetside 2 can be compare with MAG with BFbc 2 but certainly not with your Section 8 based on your experience with bots yeah ive seen your chanel and all the combat with lock on and bots

but this isnt representative of anything near planetside gameplay caracter moovement and overall designed choice

so everything thats come up is irrevelant

And also with your Senario in planetside Only the ligth assault will be overpower due to his huge mobility and jetpack all the others class exept the MAx and HA whith shield will get own all the time

[captainkapautz]

I don't know how you guys do it, but I'm getting headaches trying to read and understand most of Stews posts.

[Stew]

The TTK in that game is too low, but the movement is much better than at least BC2. Obviously the weapons are not even remotely similar to Planetside in how they function, so it's not a fair comparison.

There is no existing game that incorporates headshots, bullets, and movement in a pleasing manner. Your choices are fast fragging, move through molasses while dying to headshots, and Tribes:Ascend which has perfect accuracy SMGs and jetpacks. None of which work for Planetside, which itself had too high TTKs.

Give me a game where I can move, leading my shots matters, TTKs are short enough that most kills aren't killsteals but long enough that getting ambushed isn't insta-dead, and at least vaguely interesting bullet mechanics, and I'm on board.

Generic modern shooters don't have it and arena shooters don't have it... PS2 is perfectly capable of having it.

you realize its 1 vs 1 rigth ?

High ttk in 1 vs 1 can work well

high ttk with 2000 possible players on the maps will be a compleate failure and

Anyway we are arguing almost for no reason since the game as been designed from the ground up to have a BFbc 2 ttk or MAG ttk and cannot be change thats much because it will break all the concept and game designed

Also the people at e3 as enjoy planetside as it was yeah their will be weapon balanced need some few tweak here and teir but do not expect to see any major change in the health and ttk the game as been designed around that since the start of the dev to be more fast pace more skills based with realistic balisitic with bullet drop damage degrade over time etc...

you simply cant change it thats much so yeah

its rock solid as it is just need few tweaks glitch fix and few weapons balanced cert balanced etc..

[Trafalgar]

Protip: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Protip #2: You realize people are just skipping your posts, right, Stew?

[maddoggg]

section 8 prejudice ... section 8 prejudice

Ok dude section 8 prejudice as nothing to do with planetside to

their is no bullet drop in section 8 their is no recoils their is NO balistics

its just an average (( global agenda )) in first person

the comparaison cant be made

Planetside 2 can be compare with MAG with BFbc 2 but certainly not with your Section 8 based on your experience with bots yeah ive seen your chanel and all the combat with lock on and bots

but this isnt representative of anything near planetside gameplay caracter moovement and overall designed choice

so everything thats come up is irrevelant

And also with your Senario in planetside Only the ligth assault will be overpower due to his huge mobility and jetpack all the others class exept the MAx and HA whith shield will get own all the time

1)I was giving an example of high TTK game.
Section 8 is both high TTK and somewhat slow paced(tribes is very TTK but the moving mechanics are VERY different from ps2).
In prejudice jetpacks recharge slowly and you can get EMPed(which would drain your jetpack).
Most of the time you are forced to move around just on foot.
So if you had any real expirience in it you would know the moving mechanics aint that different from ps2 at all.

If you are looking for game that is awfully similar to ps2,than sorry m8 there isnt one(except maybe ps1?).
This game have persistent battleless,2000 people online and the war is between 3 sides(in most games it's just 2 sides).
Bf is as much arena shooter as section 8 prejudice is.
Bc2 and bf3 are basicly COD with tanks and the ability to revive.

As for MAG the only similarities ends with the fact both have more than 64 players.
MAG:Modernish scenario games with gameplay closer to COD's run and gun and it's made for console players.
PS2:All out warfare game with a rediculos amount of team work elements,sci fi gear much more similar to what you have in section 8 than what you have in MAG and also made for PC players.

2)S8p beeing global agenda in first person and lock on(aimbot)beeing a serious issue.
From just that i understood 2 things:
-you are HORRIBLE at the game
-you played it for just a few hours.
How i knew that?
-If you played for more than 10-20 hours you would know the game have noting to do with global agenda :lol:
-Any half decent player knows that jammer beacon completely neutralizes lock on.So lock on is noting more than an occasional anoyance.
You can only use it against bots and players weaker than bots.

3)My expirience against only bots :lol:
Do you think the game was dead on release?
You say you are a gamer for over 10 years and you yet seem unfamiliar with the concept of games loosing population over time and dieing?

It had 200+ people in the server playing and that's when i mostly use to play.
The only reason why i puted some footage of it is because a few friends asked me to,and at the time the game was already dead.


And yet i beg you please point out to me where do you see bots in this video
Section 8 Prejudice multiplayer gameplay part1 by Tha Soldier - YouTube
Please go ahead and name the bots :lol:

[captainkapautz]

Protip: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Protip #2: You realize people are just skipping your posts, right, Stew?

Well, on a serious note, a few of his points have merit, but the way he posts just completely negates any of his arguements.

[GuyShep]

Well, on a serious note, a few of his points have merit, but the way he posts just completely negates any of his arguements.

And being kinda right for the wrong reasons.

[fod]

High ttk in 1 vs 1 can work well

high ttk with 2000 possible players on the maps will be a complete failure

wait a minute - ps1 had a high TTK with lots of players and it wasnt a complete failure, me and many others are still playing it so it cant be all bad

imo the TTK needs to be inbetween what it is now (its too low now) and ps1 (ps1 was a little high)

[MrMorton]

section 8 prejudice ... section 8 prejudice

Ok dude section 8 prejudice as nothing to do with planetside to

their is no bullet drop in section 8 their is no recoils their is NO balistics

its just an average (( global agenda )) in first person

the comparaison cant be made

Planetside 2 can be compare with MAG with BFbc 2 but certainly not with your Section 8 based on your experience with bots yeah ive seen your chanel and all the combat with lock on and bots

but this isnt representative of anything near planetside gameplay caracter moovement and overall designed choice

so everything thats come up is irrevelant

And also with your Senario in planetside Only the ligth assault will be overpower due to his huge mobility and jetpack all the others class exept the MAx and HA whith shield will get own all the time


telling people repeatedly that their argument is invalid, then taking apart the argument and calling each part invalid, and then not giving any actual reasons why you think this, on top of insulting the person, does not make for a constructive discussion.


Personally as far as TTK goes, It all depends on the bullet spread, because a higher TTK means that there is more time for the bullet spread to take effect, which then further increases the actual TTK.

So, if you have a high spread recoil model, you want a low TTK, like in more "realistic" shooters like red orchestra 2, because with high spread and high ttk, the player is quickly frustrated trying to land shots

if you have a medium spread recoil model, you want a medium TTK, like in counter strike, where it takes 5-6 shots to the center mass to kill someone with body armor. This is what the bullet spread in ps2 looks the most similar to, so I would suspect the TTK with work best at a similar level (perhaps without instant kill headshots like in cs)

if we have a low spread recoil model, you NEED a high ttk, like in tribes ascend, where it takes a full clip to kill someone, but there is NO bullet spread. This is the least likely scenario imo, because it usually does not work in large scale battles. Rather it is seen in smaller 14-32 player battles.



because when it comes down to it, the zerg is just as effective with any ttk, as no matter if it takes 1 second, 5 seconds, or 10 seconds to bring someone down, 2 players will still be able to kill people twice as fast, that force multiplier doesn't change with TTK.

An low TTK will promote more "tactical" gameplay, but that is often misunderstood. The reason is that it forces you to think about your actions if you don't want to die, because walking into a room with a corner camper WILL leave you dead.

That means that you will have to say, 'this room is unsafe, therefore I cannot enter it without a large chance of me dying' and then staying outside of the room.

Well then what do you do, you sit outside the doorway, thus camping the doorway that is being camped by the other player. This slows down infantry combat IMMENSELY, which isn't really a good thing.

The other huge issue is the losing player's perspective of the engagement.

With an extremely low TTK, the player will often get killed before they can react, which leaves them frustrated that they died and had no control over whether they lived or not (This is BAD).

The worst offender of this is bf3, in bf3 bad map design means that there is no "front line", so you end up with an enemy behind you a lot of the time. Bfbc2 had this same problem, but it had a much higher TTK, so the bad map design was not noticed as much from a twitch fps point of view, ie not as frustrating (still sucked gameplay wise). However in bf3 the TTK is very low, so very often all of your deaths are deaths that you could not have prevented, which is EXTREMELY frustrating.

so, overall, I think a medium TTK will be the best solution with around 7 shots from a TR gun, 6 shots from a VS gun, and 5 shots from a NC gun to kill a light assault class will be good (those numbers are completely pulled out of my ass, but you get the idea)

[Trafalgar]

MW3 was so bad at the "no front line" thing that there were times that I literally spawned 3 feet behind an enemy player. (And the same thing happened to me as well)

[Tarconus]

I now know my personal hell, it's going to be reading stews posts for eternity.

On the note of ttk one thing that will help tanks and landing aircraft is to take out damage from the environment if you are not going above a certain speed.

[xnorb]

Anyway we are arguing almost for no reason since the game as been designed from the ground up to have a BFbc 2 ttk or MAG ttk and cannot be change thats much because it will break all the concept and game designed

Soooo .... what are we talking about now ?

BFBC2:
M416: 700 RoF, 16.7 damage/bullet (close range)

BF3:
M416: 750 RoF, 25 damage/bullet (close range)


BFBC2's gun handling + bullet damage is spot on perfect.

If PS2's is close to BC2's TTK, then there's enough room to be aggressive
but you still die rather fast when facing someone who knows how to shoot.

I don't see PS2 working with Quake's TTK.
Which would be way too high thinking of the open space and larger distances.
(Not even calculating the arsenal of weapons available in Quake)

BF3's TTK would be ultimate frustration.
It's already frustrating in BF3, but would be horrible in PS2.
And - i feel dirty as hell spraying everybody and their grandma ... and succedding ...

[xnorb]

An low TTK will promote more "tactical" gameplay, but that is often misunderstood. The reason is that it forces you to think about your actions if you don't want to die, because walking into a room with a corner camper WILL leave you dead.

I love those "i play tactical" guys hugging bushes and rooftops the whole
time without even looking at objectives ...

Everything in the game should encourage objective play, TTK is one thing
that needs to get people doing their job.

[SKYeXile]

dont forget that the heavy assault shield can eat 200-300 damage or something like that.

[xnorb]

dont forget that the heavy assault shield can eat 200-300 damage or something like that.

And your point is ?

[MrKWalmsley]

In my opinion, based on what I've seen it seems a tad slow for my taste. Particularly with high power weapons like sniper rifles. I'm more used to battlefield/CoD TTK, but CoD does seem a bit fast.

[xnorb]

In my opinion, based on what I've seen it seems a tad slow for my taste. Particularly with high power weapons like sniper rifles. I'm more used to battlefield/CoD TTK, but CoD does seem a bit fast.

Sniper rifles are often causing lots of rage.
What then gets nerfed is usually the damage, although that's plain stupid.

Remove the ability to hit reliably while moving, remove the quickscope ability
and what you get is a weapon that's deadly over any distance but requires
more time than any other weapon and gives you insane disadvantages
when being on the move (only noscopes possible and those are very inaccurate)

[MrKWalmsley]

Sniper rifles are often causing lots of rage.
What then gets nerfed is usually the damage, although that's plain stupid.

Remove the ability to hit reliably while moving, remove the quickscope ability
and what you get is a weapon that's deadly over any distance but requires
more time than any other weapon and gives you insane disadvantages
when being on the move (only noscopes possible and those are very inaccurate)

I'm all for making it harder for me to hit my target, makes my job more challenging and therefore more fun! But once I hit the target I expect it to hurt!

[Kalbuth]

Tool low TTK (and I'm afraid even BFBC2 TTKs are too low) will only stop movement for fear of being instagibbed out of any cover, by group aiming in your general direction (ie, not actually aiming your head). We need to keep movement viable.
Imho, slightly higher than BC2 is still needed. Something like Ennemy Territory:Quake Wars did, with locational damage rewarding headshots.
http://etqw.geezergaming.com/newbies/weapons_detailed.php
Avg-low player acc in QW was 20-25%, HS acc 3-5% , good players were going up to 35-40% acc, HS acc 10+%
Given table above, we were around 2.5 secs per kill for very average player, getting his 1 headshot during the fight, on a game with movements faster than PS2.

As headshot needs to be prevalent, the last thing needed also is ultra wide CoF or kickback. Weapons need a minimal level of precision to reward skill

[plompkin]

Tool low TTK (and I'm afraid even BFBC2 TTKs are too low) will only stop movement for fear of being instagibbed out of any cover, by group aiming in your general direction (ie, not actually aiming your head). We need to keep movement viable.

As headshot needs to be prevalent, the last thing needed also is ultra wide CoF or kickback. Weapons need a minimal level of precision to reward skill

I agree on point #2.

On "keeping movement viable", I'm afraid I don't think that's a valid point. Positional advantage is always going to be something organized and tactical players should be striving for. Low TTK does not 'nerf' movement, it means that when you do move, you need to have a plan and be intelligent about it. You can't, for example, run across several buildings, from one side of a base to another, nor should you. In a war scenario, you would move cover to cover, keeping your eyes and ears open and using all your resources to keep safe. From my experiences at E3, heavies can take quite a beating and still keep moving, and if things get hairy can deploy their shields while dashing to cover. You can't simply turn around and fire back, though.

When you're working as part of a unit, supplemented with spotting, aerial coverage, a plan, and a thorough understanding of how to execute it, low TTK stops becoming an issue. It definitely raises the skill ceiling for what a well oiled machine of a squad is able to carry out.

[Kalbuth]

I agree on point #2.

On "keeping movement viable", I'm afraid I don't think that's a valid point. Positional advantage is always going to be something organized and tactical players should be striving for. Low TTK does not 'nerf' movement, it means that when you do move, you need to have a plan and be intelligent about it. You can't, for example, run across several buildings, from one side of a base to another, nor should you. In a war scenario, you would move cover to cover, keeping your eyes and ears open and using all your resources to keep safe. From my experiences at E3, heavies can take quite a beating and still keep moving, and if things get hairy can deploy their shields while dashing to cover. You can't simply turn around and fire back, though.

When you're working as part of a unit, supplemented with spotting, aerial coverage, a plan, and a thorough understanding of how to execute it, low TTK stops becoming an issue. It definitely raises the skill ceiling for what a well oiled machine of a squad is able to carry out.

Well, combat stale is something I observed in every low TTK FPS. I'm not asking for ability to run in the open for 40+ seconds, but not being instagibbed the second you get out. One should be able to get out of cover, otherwise the primary tactic will be spam to avoid being spammed (ie, "suppressed"), whatever mean used to spam (air support, vehicle support, AoE weapons, etc...).
If you put precise and skill rewarding weapons, and on the other hand force the permanent use of cover, remove the usage of said weapon, you're doing it wrong.
As we'll have much more fire volume in PS2, TTK need to be scaled up accordingly, ie, BFBC2 TTK are still a bit too low.

EDIT : plz, also, gameplay > realism, at least in a futuristic game where primary goal is NOT realism, but scale. Real life references are not going to help gameplay.

[shadar]

I think the TTK was so high in Planetside one because of networking issues. I think the recent decrease in TTK of modern games is due the maturation of the internet. The gaming community exploring how fast is fast enough, now that we have the speed and bandwidth to support fast pace combat.
That being said, I believe the TTK in planetside 2 is a little bit too long but still sits at the edge of my TTK 'butter-zone'

Modern FPS suport faster dieing with MUCH slower over all gameplay. Fast gameplay is UT, Quake stlye or if you really want fast try Tribes. A lot of modern FPS you get 3 shooted in unlike older games or if you would get killed by a few hits it was hard to hit someone like in tribes. As to what the TTK should be in planetside its not going to be 80 poeple like what we have been seeing it could be you and 200 friendly run into 300 enemys. Low TTK for that would make it so you could easly die to somone who isnt even aiming at you.

[EisenKreutzer]

I'm a fan of longer TTK, both because of the skill requirements and what it does for the overall tempo of the game.
I was a huge fan of Section 8: Prejudice, in no small part because of its TTK, and I would not mind it if Planetside 2's TTK was increased. That said, I am fine with the way it seems now from the videos. beta will reveal all, of course, and the TTK is very much subject to change. They will adjust it based on both player feedback and the metrics they gather from the game.

If TTK goes down too low, you end up in situations where you get killed and have no way of knowing what you did wrong or how you could improve in the future; these two things are absolutely vital for a good prolonged experience in the game.

Call of Duty-games' TTK is too low for me, and the tempo in that game is also too high IMO. Battlefield 3 is a bit better, and I do enjoy that game.

Another game worth comparing with is Blacklight retribution, a game which I atleast find has a balanced TTK. Some times you die quickly, but more often than not you have a good idea of where you fucked up when you get killed in BLR.

Thats the important thing about TTK for me. It needs to be just right, or I just end up having a terrible time because I get shot by people I had no way of knowing were there with absolutely 0 chance of defending myself or improving in the future.

[GuyFawkes]

Going off gameplay Ive seen so far I think they are pretty close.

In the walk through by hamma on the beta server he posted there was a point where he hacked a terminal for the mighty TR, and 3 nc came up to stop him. From his position I hoped that he would have been able to take 2 of them out before they got up the stairs, leaving a 1v 1 fight (That didn't happen, but I put that down to him just being in a good mood and demonstrating the game for us here on psu, or taking pity on the poor nc wretches :lol:). The combined arms of the 3 was almost instagib, but you expect that.

[Landtank]

Going off gameplay Ive seen so far I think they are pretty close.

In the walk through by hamma on the beta server he posted there was a point where he hacked a terminal for the mighty TR, and 3 nc came up to stop him. From his position I hoped that he would have been able to take 2 of them out before they got up the stairs, leaving a 1v 1 fight (That didn't happen, but I put that down to him just being in a good mood and demonstrating the game for us here on psu, or taking pity on the poor nc wretches :lol:). The combined arms of the 3 was almost instagib, but you expect that.

Hmm I thought the same thing, I figured he would atleast kill one, I mean come on Hamma, I know the TR weapons are a joke but seriously :lol:

I like it so far, though it could definitely use some fine tuning during beta, especially vehicle combat imo.

[OutlawDr]

What I really don't want is TTK at long range to be a joke like it was in PS1. Of course infantry combat in PS1 was a joke all together.

Now it looks like they might have upped the TTK from what we've seen in the latest videos. In the E3 videos it took about 6 shots to kill LA infantry at close range. I saw multiple times LA taking 8 shots in the new videos. This is starting to get too long imo..especially as you extrapolate that to long range.

[GreatMazinkaise]

What I really don't want is TTK at long range to be a joke like it was in PS1. Of course infantry combat in PS1 was a joke all together.

Now it looks like they might have upped the TTK from what we've seen in the latest videos. In the E3 videos it took about 6 shots to kill LA infantry at close range. I saw multiple times LA taking 8 shots in the new videos. This is starting to get too long imo..especially as you extrapolate that to long range.

There's still headshots... if you want quick kills at any range, aim for the head. Higher body TTK isn't really a bad thing if better aiming at range is rewarded.

[OutlawDr]

Depends on the multiplier, but I don't think long range combat should be headshot only or don't bother. Also you really don't want to have big headshot multipliers coupled with relatively long body TTK, since it then compromises close range combat. It promotes players to spray and pray in order to land lucky headshots.

[Graywolves]

I think the TTK is pretty close to where it should be. Judging from recent videos.

It needs to be long enough to reward skill but short enough so that you get the satisfaction of the kill and move on to continue playing the game. Too low of a TTK makes it spray and pray and when you don't reward proper skill and fundamentals then the game becomes shallow and boring.

[Accuser]

In the walk through by hamma on the beta server he posted there was a point where he hacked a terminal for the mighty TR, and 3 nc came up to stop him. From his position I hoped that he would have been able to take 2 of them out before they got up the stairs, leaving a 1v 1 fight

And that's why the TTK should be a bit lower than it is now. The skill of out-smarting, out-maneuvering, and out-playing your opponents should allow you to ambush 2-3 opponents and have a decent shot of coming out alive. Current TTK just rewards having more warm bodies in the same place.

As it stands, Hamma -might- have been able to drop one enemy before the other two turned and smoked him, but he had no prayer of dropping all 3.

[YaJackWagon]

I think they would do well to copy 2142's (extra armor equip) TTK. Use that for killing an engineer or medic (whichever is the "less" moderately armored personnel). Then reference that for the other classes.
Slightly shorter for the LA and again for the infil... Longer for the HA.


Of course... shields may throw a monkey wrench into all that.

[GuyFawkes]

And that's why the TTK should be a bit lower than it is now. The skill of out-smarting, out-maneuvering, and out-playing your opponents should allow you to ambush 2-3 opponents and have a decent shot of coming out alive. Current TTK just rewards having more warm bodies in the same place.

As it stands, Hamma -might- have been able to drop one enemy before the other two turned and smoked him, but he had no prayer of dropping all 3.

I digress, even with the higher ttk of old ps1, the scenario I highlighted was entirely possible ( just look at any old ps1 player made video) and repeated multiple times. With ps2 from what we have seen the ttk is already lower.

Hamma was just demonstrating the game, at one point he said his mouse was sticking. The different shooting mechanics ,recoil, aiming, bullet spread,and player movement all factor into the equation as to why it didnt happen this time.

[SFJake]

And that's why the TTK should be a bit lower than it is now. The skill of out-smarting, out-maneuvering, and out-playing your opponents should allow you to ambush 2-3 opponents and have a decent shot of coming out alive. Current TTK just rewards having more warm bodies in the same place.

As it stands, Hamma -might- have been able to drop one enemy before the other two turned and smoked him, but he had no prayer of dropping all 3.
Which is my biggest problem.

The combat actually felt skill-less, but then I'm not one to play "modern" shooters to begin with.

If this game is about dying to 2 people, always, then I know I'm not going to be playing long.

[GreatMazinkaise]

And that's why the TTK should be a bit lower than it is now. The skill of out-smarting, out-maneuvering, and out-playing your opponents should allow you to ambush 2-3 opponents and have a decent shot of coming out alive. Current TTK just rewards having more warm bodies in the same place.

As it stands, Hamma -might- have been able to drop one enemy before the other two turned and smoked him, but he had no prayer of dropping all 3.

Now that simply isn't true, even with the old TTK there were plenty of players that could drop a squad-held CC by themselves as long as they had HA.

[Trip]

from what ive seen i think it pretty good.

[Kran De Loy]

There is a lot of information here and I've been gone a while and I'm too lazy to go through the whole thread. (read the first 2 and the last page only.)

That said from my personal experience...

Infiltrator was just right.
LA was a little low. (I would guess by about 0.2 seconds.)
Medic and Engineer I didn't get enough experence as to gauge.
HA was about right with the personal shield, but a little low without. (between 0.1 and 0.2 seconds.)
MAX was low as well.

Personally I felt that small arms should still be able to kill a MAX, but it should take a lot of f'ing bullets. I would say say that a MAX suit should be twice or near to twice as resilient to small arms as they were at the Community Event on Friday. As it was when I ran into a MAX suit in a 1v1 as an HA or a Infil I just gunned it down instead of fleeing in absolute terror looking for back up like it should be.

Edit: If I used an example it would actually be the Blacklight Retribution Hardsuits. Those things are beasts, they take loads of small arms to bring down, but it is possible. Also everyone got access to Anti-Armor rocket launchers and those were very effective anti-armor rockets indeed.

As for vehicles (I know this is more about Infantry and vehicles were mostly not quite finished) I would put them honestly like to see all of their TTK's double compared to what they were on Friday.

[Phizuol]

I didn't read past the first few pages, so just to throw in my two cents:

TTK in Planetside was too high. When you are measuring some weapons on how many reloads per kill rather than shots per kill you know something is a little funny.

TTK in PS2 seems pretty low from the videos in some cases. I think the big difference is that we have head shots now, which gives a lot more variability in TTK. I am anxious to try it though. I wasn't very good at infantry combat in PS1 so the worst that can happen is that I suck in PS2 as well. I am hoping that since my situational awareness is pretty good I might actually do better this time around.

So my view is "wait and see" because it looks fast but might be fun.

[Sephirex]

I'm more worried about the TTB or "Time to Beta". So far it's been much slower then I'd prefer, and is really dragging the whole experience down. Once that gets remedied, I think I'll be ready to focus on TTK.

[Deadeye]

Now that simply isn't true, even with the old TTK there were plenty of players that could drop a squad-held CC by themselves as long as they had HA.

That's because HA in PS1 is just plain better than other weapons, especially the MCG. As an NC player, I can tell you it was at least twice as hard to take a TR base as a VS base because one guy with an MCG (which ALL the TR pack) was worth at least 2 guys with Medium Assault rifles like the Punisher or Gauss, couple that with the insane fire rate and ammo clip and it just was not and is not fun.

If they do nothing else about the TTK, at least make the spectrum as tight as possible. Assault rifles shouldn't hit like wet noodles against Heavy Assault LMGs (if they get LMGs).

[GreatMazinkaise]

That's because HA in PS1 is just plain better than other weapons, especially the MCG. As an NC player, I can tell you it was at least twice as hard to take a TR base as a VS base because one guy with an MCG (which ALL the TR pack) was worth at least 2 guys with Medium Assault rifles like the Punisher or Gauss, couple that with the insane fire rate and ammo clip and it just was not and is not fun.

If they do nothing else about the TTK, at least make the spectrum as tight as possible. Assault rifles shouldn't hit like wet noodles against Heavy Assault LMGs (if they get LMGs).

I think the real problem was R-EXO. After the buff nothing but HA was particularly effective against it.

I don't expect the spectrum to be tight all that tight once Heavy Assault is added to the equation, though it would seem that you have to give up your AV to get that kind of anti-infantry capability.