Defining the role of Light Assault

[Electrofreak]

So, a few threads recently have highlighted some confusion over the role of the Light Assault. Specifically this came about due to the ammo supply role that development is currently reconsidering.

I'd like to see a discussion as to what precisely LA should be. I see LA as a shock trooper, jumping over walls or other forms of cover to soften up facility defenders. At their prime outside, but hindered indoors. Experts at bypassing the area-denial weapons deployed by engineers and an effective counter when outside to units like the MAX that have limited mobility.

But should LA be something else? Should their abilities be geared towards providing intel? Dropping ammo? Or perhaps they should be a light counter to aircraft, vehicles and infantry (just as the Heavy Assault are heavy counters to the same) due to their exceptional mobility on the battlefield, allowing them to avoid being run down by tanks or strafed by aircraft. Or should they be specialized further to counter engineers using EMP to disable deployables and mines? Or do they have enough as is?

Call me crazy, but I'd like to see a return of the Rocklet Rifle, exclusively for LA in addition to their current armament. For those that didn't play the original, it was a 6-shot dumbfire rocket revolver that did average damage versus vehicles or infantry and could be loaded with flak rounds to harass aircraft. This would allow LA to assault a base, clear deployables and skirmish with light vehicles and aircraft, softening the defenses of a facility so that combined arms can break through.

I'd like to see what everyone else's thoughts are on Light Assault and exactly what their role should be on the battlefield.
What will their abilities be? What could they be putting their cert points into aside from their jetpack?

[Bags]

I like your paragraph. They're good for assaulting via jumping on the walls, or buildings, death from above. Weak indoors when their maneuverability is hindered.

[Hmr85]

LA should be a shock trooper first and foremost. Its primary role is bypass enemy defenses and cause havoc behind enemy lines. I see them as more in line with guerrilla warfare type tactics.

I agree with Grognard on a previous thread. They should be Grenadiers also with a whole arsenal of explosives to help them reek bloody havoc behind the lines. At least that is how I see them.

Edit 1: The Rocklet Rifle as mentioned above would be a nice addition to the class also.

[Knightwyvern]

So a few threads recently have highlighted some confusion over the role of the Light Assault. Specifically this came about due to the ammo supply role that development is currently reconsidering.

I'd like to see a discussion as to what precisely LA should be. I see LA as a shock trooper, jumping over walls or other forms of cover to soften up facility defenders. At their prime outside, but hindered indoors. Experts at bypassing the area-denial weapons deployed by engineers and an effective counter when outside to units like the MAX that have limited mobility.

But should LA be something else? Should their abilities be geared towards providing intel? Dropping ammo? Or perhaps they should be a light counter to AA or AV (just as the Heavy Assault are heavy counters to the same) due to their exceptional mobility on the battlefield, allowing them to avoid being run down by tanks or strafed by aircraft. Or should they be specialized further to counter engineers using EMP to disable deployables and mines? Or do they have enough as is?

Call me crazy, but I'd like to see a return of the Rocklet Rifle, exclusively for LA. This would allow them to clear deployables and skirmish with light vehicles and aircraft, softening the defenses of a facility so that combined arms can break through.

I'd like to see what everyone else's thoughts are on Light Assault and their role on the battlefield.

Over in the "ammo" thread we've started to discuss the possibility of the LA being the "grenadier" class, along with being the "blitzkrieg" class. Fits in quite well, and with an appropriate selection of grenades and utilities, would give the LA more flexibility in-role. Possibly even moving some of the grenade abilities over from the Engineering class, seeing as the consensus seems to be moving towards the Engineer as the ammo support class.

[Dagron]

LA should be a shock trooper first and foremost. Its primary role is bypass enemy defenses and cause havoc behind enemy lines. I see them as more in line with guerrilla warfare type tactics.

I agree with Grognard on a previous thread. They should be Grenadiers also with a whole arsenal of explosives to help them reek bloody havoc behind the lines. At least that is how I see them.

I completely agree with the guerrilla part and that they should definitely get another role to choose, like many classes have. As of right now, the one clear role they have seems very limiting (playstyle-wise).

As for that secondary role being granedier, i'm not sure but it sounds good... i also want to see other suggestions before i can form a better opinion.

[Electrofreak]

Aerial grenadier isn't a bad idea at all. I was hoping to see them enter more of an AV/AA role as well but perhaps there's enough of that already through HA and MAX.

EDIT - And I just want to see the Rocklet back again. :D

[Resolve]

They should be a shock trooper with some sort of rocket rifle specialty.

[Dagron]

Call me crazy, but I'd like to see a return of the Rocklet Rifle, exclusively for LA in addition to their current armament. For those that didn't play the original, it was a 6-shot dumbfire rocket revolver that did average damage versus vehicles or infantry and could be loaded with flak rounds to harass aircraft. This would allow LA to assault a base, clear deployables and skirmish with light vehicles and aircraft, softening the defenses of a facility so that combined arms can break through.

The Rocklet Rifle as mentioned above would be a nice addition to the class also.

And I just want to see the Rocklet back again. :D

They should be a shock trooper with some sort of rocket rifle specialty.

Haha, sounds interesting, do say more. :D

[Knightwyvern]

Rocklet Rifle would fit in quite nicely with a grenadier spec'd LA :) I'd love to have my boom stick back.

The 900 pound bear might be the resemblance to Tribes; I say, cool :) It's fun shooting people in mid air.

[TheInferno]

I see the Light Assault, from the information we have, as a first-in, very fast attack unit. It has the ability to strike from different directions and flank very well, and take paths that no other unit can due to it's jump pack, be it using the regular, Icarus, or even Drifter jump pack. It'd be interesting to see a platoon of these guys jump off a mountain and glide into a base.

In heavy combat they need to either use extremely good tactics or be backed up by heavy assault troopers and other units like medics and engineers. Still, one on one they can be effective combatants against other LAs, Medics, Infiltrators, and Engineers. Going up against a Heavy Assault and especially a MAX will require skill, but is not impossible, based on skill and probably a bit of luck.

This is based on my knowledge of other shooters, as I never actually played Planetside. Still, I hope this makes some sense.

Also, I spent so long writing this two pages have probably passed since I started writing it <_<

[Electrofreak]

Rocklet Rifle would fit in quite nicely with a grenadier spec'd LA :) I'd love to have my boom stick back.

The 900 pound bear might be the resemblance to Tribes; I say, cool :) It's fun shooting people in mid air.

True, it's just a suggestion though. I'm hoping to see some other ideas from people. Then maybe Higby's eyes on this thread. :D

[Knightwyvern]

I see the Light Assault, from the information we have, as a first-in, very fast attack unit. It has the ability to strike from different directions and flank very well, and take paths that no other unit can due to it's jump pack, be it using the regular, Icarus, or even Drifter jump pack. It'd be interesting to see a platoon of these guys jump off a mountain and glide into a base.

In heavy combat they need to either use extremely good tactics or be backed up by heavy assault troopers and other units like medics and engineers. Still, one on one they can be effective combatants against other LAs, Medics, Infiltrators, and Engineers. Going up against a Heavy Assault and especially a MAX will require skill, but is not impossible, based on skill and probably a bit of luck.

This is based on my knowledge of other shooters, as I never actually played Planetside. Still, I hope this makes some sense.

Also, I spent so long writing this two pages have probably passed since I started writing it <_<

A very good summary of what I think is intended as the LA's main role; however, the problem most people have I think is that it seems to be a very specialized role with little room for flexibility. That is what the real issue is; trying to figure out what to give them to make them fun in different and secondary ways. I.E. the grenadier suggestion which I still think is the best idea so far.

[Dagron]

I.E. the grenadier suggestion which I still think is the best idea so far.

It does sound fitting and fun, so i really like it...
But it's not the best idea we have so far: it's the only idea so far. :lol:
I wish i could put another one on the table, but i'm having trouble coming up with anything.

[Electrofreak]

I see the Light Assault, from the information we have, as a first-in, very fast attack unit. It has the ability to strike from different directions and flank very well, and take paths that no other unit can due to it's jump pack, be it using the regular, Icarus, or even Drifter jump pack. It'd be interesting to see a platoon of these guys jump off a mountain and glide into a base.

In heavy combat they need to either use extremely good tactics or be backed up by heavy assault troopers and other units like medics and engineers. Still, one on one they can be effective combatants against other LAs, Medics, Infiltrators, and Engineers. Going up against a Heavy Assault and especially a MAX will require skill, but is not impossible, based on skill and probably a bit of luck.

This is based on my knowledge of other shooters, as I never actually played Planetside. Still, I hope this makes some sense.

Also, I spent so long writing this two pages have probably passed since I started writing it <_<

Well, Light Assault didn't really exist in the original PlanetSide. There were Medium Assault weapons you could certify in, but they were essentially just carbines and shotguns. There were no jet packs in PS, except on the Vanu Sovereignty MAX units. This caused a lot of controversy because it meant that they could be used in a guerilla role that other MAXes could not participate in, and allowed the VS MAX to get into positions that other infantry could not.

As can be imagined, there were many tears over it and it's why PS2 is introducing a new infantry role based upon the ability to jump-jet.

[Grognard]

So, a few threads recently have highlighted some confusion over the role of the Light Assault. Specifically this came about due to the ammo supply role that development is currently reconsidering.

I'd like to see a discussion as to what precisely LA should be. I see LA as a shock trooper, jumping over walls or other forms of cover to soften up facility defenders. At their prime outside, but hindered indoors. Experts at bypassing the area-denial weapons deployed by engineers and an effective counter when outside to units like the MAX that have limited mobility.

But should LA be something else? Should their abilities be geared towards providing intel? Dropping ammo? Or perhaps they should be a light counter to aircraft, vehicles and infantry (just as the Heavy Assault are heavy counters to the same) due to their exceptional mobility on the battlefield, allowing them to avoid being run down by tanks or strafed by aircraft. Or should they be specialized further to counter engineers using EMP to disable deployables and mines? Or do they have enough as is?

Call me crazy, but I'd like to see a return of the Rocklet Rifle, exclusively for LA in addition to their current armament. For those that didn't play the original, it was a 6-shot dumbfire rocket revolver that did average damage versus vehicles or infantry and could be loaded with flak rounds to harass aircraft. This would allow LA to assault a base, clear deployables and skirmish with light vehicles and aircraft, softening the defenses of a facility so that combined arms can break through.

I'd like to see what everyone else's thoughts are on Light Assault and their role on the battlefield.

I will just stick with my suggestion in the other thread, since its more applicable here, copy/paste to follow:

Well, I can think of one idea. Though, I am worried about offending too many sensibilities...

That said... If we are looking for synergy, we could make a few more grenade types available to the LA, perhaps even switching one or two from the Engineer, specifically the sticky bomb... Jump in, stick, jump out... Talk about synergy.

The concern for engineer is that he has too much on his plate, but I think they should have a lot of tools, as long as those tools are sensible for the class. I am, however, considering the Light Assault vs the Engineer as far as the secondary roll of "grenadier", which we do not have yet. Perhaps that is a role, that can be rolled, over to the LA?

Every class seems to have explosives, but what about the LA class having the established secondary roll of "grenadier"? It is certainly synergistic with the class' primary function... The LA stickybomb combo is almost scary, but balance is doable. This can also take the pressure off the Engineer, and cement him/her into the other roles. The engineer has 5 types of grenades, every other class has 3. Why not switch this out to LA with 5, and Engineer with the most synergistic 3?

Im not pushing this, just Primary LA / Secondary Grenadier makes sense to me.

So, thats my take on it.

[Knightwyvern]

It does sound fitting and fun, so i really like it...
But it's not the best idea we have so far: it's the only idea so far. :lol:
I wish i could put another one on the table, but i'm having trouble coming up with anything.

They're not mutually exclusive ;) But this does seem to be a good time to port over the possible downsides I posted in the ammo thread for the sake of discussion here:

We know grenades cost resources. Will this mean that playing as a LA as a grenadier will be much more resource intensive then other classes? Does this apply to ACE as well, and therefor making engineers a "costly" class to play as well in that role?

And on top of that, seeing as how consumables will cost resources, should they or should they not be replenished along with other weapon ammo? (mostly talking about grenades here, I don't think having ACE as a replenish-able item would be a very good thing.)

The second bit isn't quite as applicable, but included it for the sake of completeness.

[TheInferno]

Hmm, I can see that. Maybe I'm just too used to Battlefield 2142 and the like (oh god a Battlefield player shoot him now :D) but when I played Assault (specifically BF2142), the main thing I did was, in essence, move forward and attack, primarily using my rifle, flanking and taking points. Of course, 2142 Assault also had medical abilities which I did use when someone needed a revive or our entire squad had low health, so...

I can see a grenadier being a cool thing, but my only point is this: does it necessarily need another role other than high-mobility attack class? That alone, while narrow at first glance, could possibly be used in tons of different ways. That tower we saw? I could see normal troops surging from the bottom while a squad of Light Assault units use jump jets and attacks from the middle or top, thereby forcing the enemies between a rock and a hard place. I could see them moving quickly to help units in need of supporting fire. I could see them as the mortar that holds the bricks of a heavy assault squad together.

I mean, the big point of the Heavy Assault is the fact that it can do a lot of damage and take down vehicles, right? You could basically describe that as a different version of the light assault, one that has traded mobility for firepower and staying power.

I don't know if this is making any sense, and I would not object at all to giving the Light Assault some more stuff, I just don't really see the urgent need for it. I'll have to see how it plays in beta, of course. I do want it to be an awesome and fun class to play, since it's tied with medic for the class I want to play the most.

EDIT: Also, do we know if the underslung grenade launcher uses grenades as PS1 did (or so I hear) or does it have it's own ammo pool? If it's the latter, do you need to buy those too, or are they like rifle ammo?

[Dagron]

Hmm, I can see that. Maybe I'm just too used to Battlefield 2142 and the like (oh god a Battlefield player shoot him now :D) but when I played Assault (specifically BF2142), the main thing I did was, in essence, move forward and attack, primarily using my rifle, flanking and taking points. Of course, 2142 Assault also had medical abilities which I did use when someone needed a revive or our entire squad had low health, so...

I can see a grenadier being a cool thing, but my only point is this: does it necessarily need another role other than high-mobility attack class? That alone, while narrow at first glance, could possibly be used in tons of different ways. That tower we saw? I could see normal troops surging from the bottom while a squad of Light Assault units use jump jets and attacks from the middle or top, thereby forcing the enemies between a rock and a hard place. I could see them moving quickly to help units in need of supporting fire. I could see them as the mortar that holds the bricks of a heavy assault squad together.

I mean, the big point of the Heavy Assault is the fact that it can do a lot of damage and take down vehicles, right? You could basically describe that as a different version of the light assault, one that has traded mobility for firepower and staying power.

I don't know if this is making any sense, and I would not object at all to giving the Light Assault some more stuff, I just don't really see the urgent need for it. I'll have to see how it plays in beta, of course. I do want it to be an awesome and fun class to play, since it's tied with medic for the class I want to play the most.

EDIT: Also, do we know if the underslung grenade launcher uses grenades as PS1 did (or so I hear) or does it have it's own ammo pool? If it's the latter, do you need to buy those too, or are they like rifle ammo?

I think what we are worried about is that by losing the ammo drop, LAs are losing the potential to be entertaining in a different way, as a behind the lines support unit for example.

Personally i feel that a different role for such a mobile class is a way to make it interesting to people who might not like their current one role so much.

[Dagron]

Just treat LAs as Marines that establish a foothold for an advancing HA Army.

Then what would likely work is a simple job exchange between Engy and LA class. LA new job portable manned turret. Engy new job is ammo. That way we are not nerfing LA, or overburdening Engy with too many jobs.

LAs can jump on high places drop a turret and hold that ground for the advancing Army. And I can see LAs on top of the CC with turrets ready to rip a gal drop of enemy soldiers a new one.

Mmm, people already had trouble with the suggestion of LAs taking mines from engis, imagine the fit they'll throw when they see you suggesting taking the turret away. :lol:

[Knightwyvern]

Just treat LAs as Marines that establish a foothold for an advancing HA Army.

Then what would likely work is a simple job exchange between Engy and LA class. LA new job portable manned turret. Engy new job is ammo. That way we are not nerfing LA, or overburdening Engy with too many jobs.

LAs can jump on high places drop a turret and hold that ground for the advancing Army. And I can see LAs on top of the CC with turrets ready to rip a gal drop of enemy soldiers a new one.

I agree with swapping abilities between Engie and light assault as far as ammo replenishment and grenades go.. but removing the turret from engineers is like removing the cloak from infiltrators. It's a defining characteristic, and a huge part of what makes them excellent in area denial and defense rolls.

Edit: Looks like you've got my number, Dagron. :D

[TheInferno]

Yeah, turrets should definitely stay with the engineers, IMO.

I just don't know. I mean, all Heavy Assault does is gun people down and blow up vehicles, and I don't see any more depth in that then I do with Light Assault, but people don't have a problem with that. Maybe I'm just not seeing it, and that's probably the case.

Ah well, like I said, I don't have a reason to not want more stuff to play with, and I'm definitely not the only one who will play Light Assault.

...though, wait, don't we already have things like Smoke Grenades and Flashbang Grenades, as well as some others? I don't know if that affects anything, but it's something to keep in mind. A wider variety or perhaps a greater amount of grenades carried would be nice, to be honest.

EDIT: And when did this thing that any word that is the title of a wiki page turns into a hyperlink? Just seems to have happened within the last week or so.

[IMMentat]

I agree with the OP. Especially on the rocklet idea (no need for exclusivity the positional advantage should be enough to encourage mostly LA to use it).

I disagree all the BS that engineers have "to much on their plate", most of what the engy does is out-of combat or deploy and move on actions (mines, turrets, repairs and barriers less-so, should the devs turn engineer and medic into full-on pocket-healers I am going to have a fit!).
In troop vs troop combat engineers can babysit/repair whatever max or MANA turret is around or look for something to shoot/grenade thats not body blocked by front line troopers. Outside of the babysitting., thats not much to do.

I think that a few alternate options for LA other than ammo packs will only be a good thing but i have no problem with them keeping ammo packs (a few suggestions in my earlier posts)

I disagree with LA getting the engy grenade options, even with a resource cost many LA would pop-out, sticky grenade/claymore, pop back for (far too) easy kills.
LA need more utility/support not more ambush tactic death-blows.

[Knightwyvern]

A quick thought.. is AA flak effective vs an airborne jet pack LA? :D

Should it be?

[Dagron]

I dunno, i think since HAs can switch their main weapons to perform different roles (AA, AV, AI), i don't see so much problem with them. Plus everyone loves rocket launchers and miniguns... what's there not to love? :D

[Hmr85]

A quick thought.. is AA flak effective vs an airborne jet pack LA? :D

Should it be?

I think it should be. I would even go a step further and say if your airborne while jet packing and I manage to lock onto you with my Rocket launcher then your fair game. Remember that jet pack puts off heat. So those heat seeking missiles would love to pay them a visit.

[TheInferno]

Oh god, Saber Launchers...

I don't really think so. It's not like they're jet packs ala Tribes where you're in the air a lot. Besides, considering the lock on time I'd be on the ground before you got a lock and you'd probably do better to pull out the LMG and just shoot me in mid-air. Besides, a rocket launcher is meant to be anti-vehicle. You don't need to make it a perfect tool for swiping light infantry too.

[Hmr85]

Oh god, Saber Launchers...

I don't really think so. It's not like they're jet packs ala Tribes where you're in the air a lot. Besides, considering the lock on time I'd be on the ground before you got a lock and you'd probably do better to pull out the LMG and just shoot me in mid-air.

Lots of guys where bailing out of Aircraft and jet packing down. That is more than enough time to get 1 shot off if I catch you.

[Grognard]

Just treat LAs as Marines that establish a foothold for an advancing HA Army.

Then what would likely work is a simple job exchange between Engy and LA class. LA new job portable manned turret. Engy new job is ammo. That way we are not nerfing LA, or overburdening Engy with too many jobs.

LAs can jump on high places drop a turret and hold that ground for the advancing Army. And I can see LAs on top of the CC with turrets ready to rip a gal drop of enemy soldiers a new one.

However, speaking as a prior marine, and a future LA, I think giving the turret to the LA is not so synergistic as the grenadier aspect. Turrets are, in fact, stationary, and they are devices that smack of engineer. Light Assault screams grenadier to me, cause grenades are far less "heavy gear" than, say... heavy AV/AA rocket launchers for the HA class.

Taking 2 grenade types from the Engineer, and adding them to the Light Assault class, establishes (for lack of a better term) it as the "grenadier" secondary role. The engineer isnt as well suited to being a mobile grenadier, as its function seems more support / defensive, to me. I think as an engineer I would probably want to fix, turret up, mine, and claymore, in otherwords fortify my position, than try to run out and hunt vehicles with stickies, etc.

So moving that (grenadier) role to the Light Assault class, assures the light assault of a good secondary synergistic role to supplant the ammo utility that befits the engineer better, and relieves the engineer of a role they are less apt to use, given what they already need to do.

[Dagron]

I think it should be. I would even go a step further and say if your airborne while jet packing and I manage to lock onto you with my Rocket launcher then your fair game. Remember that jet pack puts off heat. So those heat seeking missiles would love to pay them a visit.

LOL, i plan on playing LAs mostly when i'm not an engi... and i say HELL YEAH!
That has the potential to make up some hilarious stories! :lol:

[OutlawDr]

I see clear problems with LA grenadier. So far I have liked the LA gameplay in the videos. Jump jetting and still hitting your target looks very hard to pull off requiring a good deal of skill, but with high rewards. I fear if grenades are emphasized, LA will turn into a wanna be tribes class spamming gernades and rockets from the air. This is ok in tribes since everyone has jets and is insanely mobile. In PS2, with slower pacing, they'll just have to aim in the general direction to hit their slower opponents, all the while flying like a mad monkey to avoid getting shot back.

[Grognard]

...though, wait, don't we already have things like Smoke Grenades and Flashbang Grenades, as well as some others? I don't know if that affects anything, but it's something to keep in mind. A wider variety or perhaps a greater amount of grenades carried would be nice, to be honest.


Precisely the precedent I extrapolated the LA being a "grenadier" from :)

[Knightwyvern]

Errr no. Removing our ability to fix shit, is like removing cloak from infil.

As a Br30 Cr5 Engy (how to put this nicely) I don't give a fuck about that portable turret. We place mines, we place spits, we ride in armor and air, and we may even fucking shit out ammo too. We good. Please LA take the fucking mobile turret.

To me it's a simple job exchange, that doesn't nerf either class.

Well considering there is no AI controlled spitfire turret AFAIK, a man-able, powerful fixed turret seems like a good option. They look pretty damn effective in the streams.

[Dagron]

However, speaking as a prior marine, and a future LA, I think giving the turret to the LA is not so synergistic as the grenadier aspect. Turrets are, in fact, stationary, and they are devices that smack of engineer. Light Assault screams grenadier to me, cause grenades are far less "heavy gear" than, say... heavy AV/AA rocket launchers for the HA class.

Taking 2 grenade types from the Engineer, and adding them to the Light Assault class, establishes (for lack of a better term) it as the "grenadier" secondary role. The engineer isnt as well suited to being a mobile grenadier, as its function seems more support / defensive, to me. I think as an engineer I would probably want to fix, turret up, mine, and claymore, in otherwords fortify my position, than try to run out and hunt vehicles with stickies, etc.

So moving that (grenadier) role to the Light Assault class, assures the light assault of a good secondary synergistic role to supplant the ammo utility that befits the engineer better, and relieves the engineer of a role they are less apt to use, given what they already need to do.

Sounds right to me.



I see clear problems with LA grenadier. So far I have liked the LA gameplay in the videos. Jump jetting and still hitting your target looks very hard to pull off requiring a good deal of skill, but with high rewards. I fear if grenades are emphasized, LA will turn into a wanna be tribes class spamming gernades and rockets from the air. This is ok in tribes since everyone has jets and is insanely mobile. In PS2, with slower pacing, they'll just have to aim in the general direction to hit their slower opponents, all the while flying like a mad monkey to avoid getting shot back.

Since grenades cost resources, they might not be so inclined to spam them. I could be wrong though.

[TheInferno]

Ah. Fair enough!

I still don't exactly like the idea of using a rocket launcher against light infantry, but whatever. I'll just wait until I'm closer to the ground to hit my booster so the lock-on can't get me.

[Electrofreak]

I see clear problems with LA grenadier. So far I have liked the LA gameplay in the videos. Jump jetting and still hitting your target looks very hard to pull off requiring a good deal of skill, but with high rewards. I fear if grenades are emphasized, LA will turn into a wanna be tribes class spamming gernades and rockets from the air. This is ok in tribes since everyone has jets and is insanely mobile. In PS2, with slower pacing, they'll just have to aim in the general direction to hit their slower opponents, all the while flying like a mad monkey to avoid getting shot back.

This is a valid concern... nobody wants to see LA turn into the lame "AoE spammer" class. If LA was to become a sturmgrenadier sub-class, grenade use would have to be limited.

[OutlawDr]

Since grenades cost resources, they might not be so inclined to spam them. I could be wrong though.
Spamming wouldn't mean using them ineffectively. More like throwing them frequently with less need for accuracy. If its effective, cost be damn. You can look over the bill once you've won the firefights and taken over the base.

[Xyntech]

I think I would be okay with LA having AOE weapons as long as the ammo cost resources and they could only fire them while their feet were on the ground. Some people may not like that kind of arbitrary limit of not allowing those weapons to be fired while airborne, but I think it would be tolerable as well as go a long way towards balancing the class.

[Knightwyvern]

However, speaking as a prior marine, and a future LA, I think giving the turret to the LA is not so synergistic as the grenadier aspect. Turrets are, in fact, stationary, and they are devices that smack of engineer. Light Assault screams grenadier to me, cause grenades are far less "heavy gear" than, say... heavy AV/AA rocket launchers for the HA class.

Taking 2 grenade types from the Engineer, and adding them to the Light Assault class, establishes (for lack of a better term) it as the "grenadier" secondary role. The engineer isnt as well suited to being a mobile grenadier, as its function seems more support / defensive, to me. I think as an engineer I would probably want to fix, turret up, mine, and claymore, in otherwords fortify my position, than try to run out and hunt vehicles with stickies, etc.

So moving that (grenadier) role to the Light Assault class, assures the light assault of a good secondary synergistic role to supplant the ammo utility that befits the engineer better, and relieves the engineer of a role they are less apt to use, given what they already need to do.

Bam. Well put, agreed completely.

Of course this is all dependent on whether or not the resource cost of grenades will be balanced just right, so they will be usable but not overly spammable.

[Synapse]

So many good ideas!

This thread is bursting with them! Let's make it happen!

[Dagron]

Spamming wouldn't mean using them ineffectively. More like throwing them frequently with less need for accuracy. If its effective, cost be damn. You can look over the bill once you've won the firefights and taken over the base.

I suppose. Then perhaps giving them more utility grenades instead of more destructive grenades could work?

They already have flashbang and smoke grenades, so maybe slow grenades (sticky goo) or concussive grenades (low dmg, high knockback)... That kind of stuff.

[Electrofreak]

I'm impressed with the amount of thought going into the posts in this thread so far. There's gotta be more ideas out there, let's keep 'em comin' in for sure.

I suppose. Then perhaps giving them more utility grenades instead of more destructive grenades could work?

They already have flashbang and smoke grenades, so maybe slow grenades (sticky goo) or concussive grenades (low dmg, high knockback)... That kind of stuff.

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing them have share the EMP grenade with infil. That said, I don't want to overextend LA by stealing TOO much from other classes.

[Electrofreak]

herp derp double post

[TheInferno]

Hmm. I still like it as is out of all the ideas considering the other points raised. AoE spam wouldn't be that fun.

Can the deployable turrets actually pan down at all? Seems like they can only look side to side and up. Pretty worthless to give to the Light Assault in that case.

Besides, it's just... turrets, fortifications, all that stuff does seem to belong with the Engineer. I'd rather see them overloaded than give the Light Assault the turret.

[Grognard]

I see clear problems with LA grenadier. So far I have liked the LA gameplay in the videos. Jump jetting and still hitting your target looks very hard to pull off requiring a good deal of skill, but with high rewards. I fear if grenades are emphasized, LA will turn into a wanna be tribes class spamming gernades and rockets from the air. This is ok in tribes since everyone has jets and is insanely mobile. In PS2, with slower pacing, they'll just have to aim in the general direction to hit their slower opponents, all the while flying like a mad monkey to avoid getting shot back.

I thought about this too, and I agree you are correct. To be clear, and fairly address your concern, I think jumping and chucking could be too much tribes BS, TBH. However, I still think LA / grenadier is sound. There are ways to kill the spam, by simply putting JJs and nades on the same cool down. Or, perhaps grenades are already on a timer, and it might be moot, or need an adjustment.

My grenadier suggestion is based around the idea that a LA can get into position better, not be a hopping fool who just chucks AOE. I dont want that either.

Point taken, and agreed.

[Dagron]

With the turret the LA has to be in harm's way to make kills. Even if he has the high ground, the grunt has some sense of (false) hope he can shoot LA dead.

Now an LA jumping on top of something to spam lethal nads while being inaccessible to that grunt's rifle, is just never going to fucking happen. It breaks the gaming mechanics. So no way will they ever get lethal nads.

I still don't see turrets leaving the hands of engis, no matter what one of them says (however important/competent he was), the majority of them won't want to hear it.

I agree that grenades could cause too much havoc, which is why i suggested utility grenades instead of dmg ones.

[Knightwyvern]

I still don't see turrets leaving the hands of engis, no matter what one of them says (however important/competent he was), the majority of them won't want to hear it.

I agree that grenades could cause too much havoc, which is why i suggested utility grenades instead of dmg ones.

Agreed on both counts. More utility, less boom boom.

Turrets are innately defensive weapons; LA are an innately offensive class. Not a good mix.

[OutlawDr]

I suppose. Then perhaps giving them more utility grenades instead of more destructive grenades could work?

They already have flashbang and smoke grenades, so maybe slow grenades (sticky goo) or concussive grenades (low dmg, high knockback)... That kind of stuff.

I defiantly like them being more of a utility grenade class, since utility is what they are lacking.

[Sledgecrushr]

Im pretty good with how LA works right now. Im sure that the different jet pack variants will allow the LA to be played in many entertaining ways. I also dont really care for the la to be some kind of grenadier, either you will have a flying grenade spammer or it will cost too much to be of any real effect. What I would like to see is the LA be able to spec in dual wield and be able to carry a smg and a pistol, or two pistols at the same time.

[Grognard]

With the turret the LA has to be in harm's way to make kills. Even if he has the high ground, the grunt has some sense of (false) hope he can shoot LA dead.

Now an LA jumping on top of something to spam lethal nads while being inaccessible to that grunt's rifle, is just never going to fucking happen. It breaks the gaming mechanics. So no way will they ever get lethal nads.

I cant think when I am rolling on the ground laughing... yer killing me... doesnt there need to be an "E" in there...? :rofl:

Seriously, though with much difficulty, I see what you mean, but Im after class synergy, a turret demobilizes the mobility class... In the footage, I saw an engineer fortifying a control point with a turret facing up a flight of stairs, and that was pure engineer tactics, to me...

I'm still dying of laughter here damnit...

[Dagron]

Im pretty good with how LA works right now. Im sure that the different jet pack variants will allow the LA to be played in many entertaining ways.

I suppose we can wait and see, since appearently beta is not too far in the horizon.

Anyway, i guess i better go to bed: i'm probably starting to get on people's nerves *cough*four hours ago*cough* with my constant posting and editing... But mostly because i'm getting sleepy. :p

[Electrofreak]

Remember, we've other roles that they could fill too. Spotting targets makes sense, and perhaps EMP bursts or other disruptive measures to cause a window of opportunity for their companions during an assault.

[Knightwyvern]

Remember, we've other roles that they could fill too. Spotting targets makes sense, and perhaps EMP bursts or other disruptive measures to cause a window of opportunity for their companions during an assault.

I might agree, however both of those roles are already taken by the infiltrator and I think they work pretty well in this role. Makes for some better combined arms/class diversity IMO.

Other than the grenadier thing though I can't really think of other good secondary roles for the LA.. working on it.

[TheInferno]

Actually, EMP grenades that do something like that would be awesome. It would fit right in with the flashbangs and smoke grenades they already have.

Bah, I'm probably just repeating myself. Sorry about that.

[Sledgecrushr]

I suppose we can wait and see, since appearently beta is not too far in the horizon.

Anyway, i guess i better go to bed: i'm probably starting to get on people's nerves *cough*four hours ago*cough* with my constant posting and editing... But mostly because i'm getting sleepy. :p

Good night brother.

[Grognard]

Remember, we've other roles that they could fill too. Spotting targets makes sense, and perhaps EMP bursts or other disruptive measures to cause a window of opportunity for their companions during an assault.

Spotting sure does, and has just as much synergy as a grenadier variant. Infiltrator ability for now, not sure about my opinion yet. Someone, not me, did suggest this, a few days ago... EMP is back to grenadier, though.

[Electrofreak]

Actually, EMP grenades that do something like that would be awesome. It would fit right in with the flashbangs and smoke grenades they already have.

Well, Knightwyvern is right, EMP grenades already belong to Infils which will likely need them. As is spotting for that matter.

In my eagerness I may be adding too much opportunity for roles to overlap with my suggestions.

I still think LA would be useful for harassing enemy vehicles and aircraft though, given the fact that they're going to be outside most of the time and would be able to skirmish with them without too much trouble.

What we don't want to see too much of however, is LA becoming so effective outdoors that everyone uses LA when assaulting a base and then switches to something else once the fight moves inside.

[Grognard]

Well, Knightwyvern is right, EMP grenades already belong to Infils which will likely need them.

There is no reason to take them from Infiltrators to flesh out, and complete a "grenadier secondary" for LA. There are a few explosives that belong to more than one class. I wouldnt want to cross-class too much, so maybe the charger grenade might be better, perhaps not.

[Electrofreak]

I wouldnt mind all classes having EMP grenades cause PS2 is going to be BALLSDEEP in mines and spits. We Engys are evil motherfuckers.

I LOLed!

[Malorn]

Jetpack and rocklet - no thanks. The jump pads and jetpack alone are enough Quake for PS2, don't need to be adding in rocket arena along with that.

This is a good thread topic, however. LA is a class that didn't exist in PS2 and it's hard to nail down. The game has a lot more vertical gameplay and so a class exists to utilize that vertical gameplay makes sense, at least on the surface.

Here's how I see light assault - they're a skirmisher/flanker. That's pretty much it. Their purpose is to out-maneuver, harass, and get behind the enemy to help the main squad. At least in theory.

The challenge with LA is making them fit well into a squad. Infiltrator is another one that's difficult to pin down - both classes seem to be designed to be loners. However, the Infiltrator does offer some valuable benefits to a squad, namely the spotting and hacking contributions. They can also flank to a certain extent but don't pack the same hardware that the LA class does. If infils had shotguns and carbines then I think they would overlap heavily with the LA benefits. Only Infils can't easily get into places where a medic can't revive them. A LA that dies on top of a roof is SOL and his only hope is a squad spawn. And squad spawns have long timers, so that really doesn't scale well.

As a strong contributor of a large heavy-infantry based outfit, we have a hard time working LA into our plans. MAX, Medics, Engineers, and Heavy Assault are clearly valuable players for a squad. Infiltrators have a place in small numbers (like 1 in 10). Light assault are hard to fit in. Here are some key questions that I hope developers ask when understanding light assault:

1) Why would a squad want to take a light assault instead of another MAX, medic, engineer, or heavy assault?

2) Why would you take someone that by their very design won't stay with the squad?

3) Why take someone who's class design is to run off, go someplace that the rest of the squad can't follow, and then die off by himself out of revive range by a medic?

These questions illustrate why Light Assault is hard to fit into a squad. Their nature is to specifically not be among the rest of the squad, and if they aren't near their squad they may not be able to support their squad, and more importantly their squad cannot support them.

So in a heavy infantry squad, a light assault is difficult to justify. Previously we had planned to have roughly 1 light assault per squad simply due to ammo benefits, and perhaps they could man an engineer's turret when we needed to hold down a point while the engineer keeps the MAXes topped off. If ammo is moved off of Light Assault and not replaced with anything that provides clear squad benefit, that spot in the squad will immediately get moved to another MAX, Medic, Engineer, or Heavy Assault.

If Light Assault had unique grenades that brought situational and tactical value, such as smoke grenades, EMP grenades, flares, and other utility items then perhaps their mobility might justify bringing them. I know they have talked about smoke grenades and flash bangs and such being given to light assault, but essentially Light Assault just feels like a solo killwhore class to me. They don't really bring any clear benefits to a squad and are more of a liability than anything else. I'm also not convinced that tactical grenades will be enough.

Spotting is also something that I could see naturally valuable to a LA. They can get up high, get good views on surrounding areas. And if they're flanking the enemy that means they can spot the enemy and relay their position to the squad. That would be a valuable addition. But we need to be careful about giving them too many benefits that could be also used to make them a better solo class. Preferably they should be given abilities that only really benefit the squad and not themselves.

When I see LA mostly I just see a little bitch class that I know is going to annoy many players with their hit-and-run tactics. They'll be the guerrilla class that might pick off stragglers and be an annoyance but they wont often be the class that makes a difference at an objective. I'm not really looking forward to the class being in the game quite honestly.

Planetside is about a massive scale where teamwork is what prevails. LA is a class that has no real value for teamwork and so I basically see it as a poor addition to the game. I'm sure it's a fun class, of that I have no doubt. But I'm not sure it's good for the game. Unless they can give it something to help make them easier to res by a medic if they die in a bad spot and unless they give them something desirable to a squad I don't see it as something good for the game.

At this time I can't really think of anything good to give them. The ammo bit seemed good but had clear problems in making them even more of a solo class with no need for a supporting squad. Not having ammo means they are at least dependent on a squad for resupply (either the new ammo-giver or the infil to hack a console). At this point it seems like they'd just be shoehorning something in to make them useful to justify the "they're cool" aspect to the game. I know they're cool, I know they're fun, and to some perhaps that's a good enough reason. But BFRs were also cool. They were also fun. So simply cool and fun isn't a good enough reason for me.

Edit: The other problem I have with Light Assault is that it is clearly the class for the pilots, who can use the jetpack to bypass the need for a bail upgrade. Seems cheesy to me and defeats the purpose of the bail upgrade's tradeoff.

[Arcticus]

One concept for LA secondary function would be to drop ropes for Engi, med and HA to SLOWLY climb the side of a building.

I don't know if this is already in game, but LA should have the second fastest point capture rate (I imagine Inf should be fastest) if it's desired for them to have some function inside buildings.

[TheInferno]

1) Why would a squad want to take a light assault instead of another MAX, medic, engineer, or heavy assault?

2) Why would you take someone that by their very design won't stay with the squad?

3) Why take someone who's class design is to run off, go someplace that the rest of the squad can't follow, and then die off by himself out of revive range by a medic?

I'm going to try to take a shot at defending the Light Assault as is, so at least there's a sounding board.

1) While extra firepower is good, having someone in the right position can make all the difference. By flanking from the side or even above, you can deal with an enemy easier. Tactics like this will help a good squad engage and eliminate the enemy easier.

2) Why wouldn't they? Just because they are more mobile than any other unit doesn't mean they can't stay with the squad and spread out to engage the enemy. Even in cases where the squad is storming a building, I could see a pair of lights breaking off and going in the top way, throwing in some smoke and flashbangs to cause some chaos as the rest of the squad pushes in. This does of course pull them away from the medics, but it's not like they're half a base away, either.

3) This seems like a rehash of number two with a bit more dislike for Light Assault, honestly. :p

I think you addressed that, though. Honestly, as much as the forum hates hearing it (and I think I've already said it so I'll sound like a broken record) we'll need to play with the class before we can say it's useless or not. Theoryside is all well and good, and you're probably better at it than I ever could be, but even so, things need to hit the proving ground. If that makes any sense.

[Knightwyvern]

Wall of well reasoned argument

Very nice post. A few things I'd like to address; last time I knew, Infils did indeed have the ability to use SMG's and perhaps even shotguns. I'm ok with that, but as you said it does devalue the LA. This may have changed when I wasn't looking, I'm not sure.

In the E3 demo, LA did indeed have smoke and flash grenades along with C4 grenades, which kind of spawned the original idea of a grenadier class I think; I can of course see your concerns for a grenadier LA, though I think it would be hard to tell if it would be a good implementation without testing it first. Like everything else, basically :P

Yes, PS2 is heavy on teamwork, and I'm all for that; read almost any of my posts. However, I think that you're confusing the fact that a LA is a "loner" class with it not being valuable in a team setting even without any secondary roles besides the jump pack. After all, sometimes that Heavy Infantry squad just can't bust the shell on that base. Proper use of harassment using the verticality of the game could be just the ticket in a lot of situations IMO.

EDIT: TheInferno said that same thing better above. :P

Also, as you and Electrofreak have said, I'd be all for sharing some of the advanced spotting features with the Infiltrator. LA would make for great target designators for OS when an infil can't get the job done.

It is tough though. It seems to me that at the end of the day what the LA has going for it is jet pack, jet pack, jet pack. Very useful, but we may just have to live with the fact that the class has a more narrow window of usefulness than some of the other classes. At least, more highly specialized.

[Malorn]

1) While extra firepower is good, having someone in the right position can make all the difference. By flanking from the side or even above, you can deal with an enemy easier. Tactics like this will help a good squad engage and eliminate the enemy easier.

Yes, that is a valuable thing, which an infiltrator can also provide with cloaking - and the infil has spotting bonuses to boot. AND the infil can provide hacking services. Sure, he can't hop on a building, but cloaking is another form of mobility and flanking and can be used to effectively fill the same role with additional benefits to the squad (which the LA cannot provide). And the infiltrator is much less likely to die in a place where he cannot receive a res.

But the point of my question is whether another medic, another vehicle/max busting Heavy, another MAX, or an engineer couldn't fill most of that role and much more. I have a hard time say "hey medic, please switch to light assault" - and I can't picture myself saying that and, more importantly, I can't picture myself saying with a straight face that my squad got stronger by making that switch.

2) Why wouldn't they? Just because they are more mobile than any other unit doesn't mean they can't stay with the squad and spread out to engage the enemy. Even in cases where the squad is storming a building, I could see a pair of lights breaking off and going in the top way, throwing in some smoke and flashbangs to cause some chaos as the rest of the squad pushes in. This does of course pull them away from the medics, but it's not like they're half a base away, either.

3) This seems like a rehash of number two with a bit more dislike for Light Assault, honestly. :p


I think you're missing the point that manpower is limited, as an officer in an organized outfit my goal is to have an optimal and efficient squad. While I get the point that yes, a well trained Light Assault will know his limits, but if he's on top of a building and dies there's no way he's getting a res. Then we're down a man and possibly separated if the squad spawn timer is down. Effecitvely squad spawn would become the "light assault and infiltrator" spawn for when they over-reach or fail in their flanking attempt and die in a bad spot. Given the long timer on a squad spawn we will naturally want to keep the number of such players to a minimum in the squad. Training and skill can help overcome that, but it still takes us back to the desire to have a class that will be a guaranteed asset to the squad and not one that is potentially a liability.

I want consistent success, and I don't see LA as a class that brings the squad closer to that. At best, there would be 1 in 10 as a light assault. At best. That assumes 2 max, 2 engis, 2 medics, 2 HA's, and an infiltrator. But looking at that breakdown I still have a hard time thinking the LA is a better choice than another HA, MAX, or Medic.

[OutlawDr]

To start of with, lets give LA flash-bang, smoke and other utility grenades. Give them an upgraded spotting ability, but make it mechanically different than the infiltrators somehow.

I'm not worried about the LA's combat effectiveness within a squad. We saw in the videos several LAs flanking and killing enemies that were distracted by squad members. Im more concerned that they lack utility and that they seem very one dimensional.

Its true that with LAs there is a much higher probability that they will be killed outside of revive range. An idea I believe a dev brought up is that the medic can have a "revive grenade" or something like that. My knee-jerk reaction was that is sounded lame. But I've been warming it up to it, and it could also act as a good solution to the LA out of revive range problem. If there is a dead LA on top of the building, throw a revive grenade up there. Tradeoff is that it takes the grenade slot of the medic, cost resources to buy just like grenades, and are limited. It wouldn't be your go-to revive skill, but something for special emergencies...like an out of reach LA or Inf.

[kaffis]

Ugh. I don't think the rocklet rifle is a good match for LA.

Basically, I don't think you can give LA anything even half-decent against vehicles, or else they'll be the only thing you need outdoors. Remember, LA is the class best able to jump over a vehicle to gain a big fat view of the tanks squishy rear end. Giving them explosives to shoot at that rear end risks completely trivializing conventional AV weaponry from a MAX or HA with even the slightest balance slip-up.

Better to just not walk that line.

LA's anti-infantry weaponry appears to be reasonably effective against MAXes already when used with good LA movement tactics. That's as far as I'd want it to go.

[Malorn]

Its true that with LAs there is a much higher probability that they will be killed outside of revive range. An idea I believe a dev brought up is that the medic can have a "revive grenade" or something like that. My knee-jerk reaction was that is sounded lame. But I've been warming it up to it, and it could also act as a good solution to the LA out of revive range problem. If there is a dead LA on top of the building, throw a revive grenade up there. Tradeoff is that it takes the grenade slot of the medic, cost resources to buy just like grenades, and are limited. It wouldn't be your go-to revive skill, but something for special emergencies...like an out of reach LA or Inf.

I hadn't thought of revive grenades with that purpose before, but that is a good idea. If a LA dies on top of a building and the medic has a good idea where he is and they cert for such grenades to aid the squad, then it could indeed be a good way of getting them back in the fight without using squad spawn or getting separated. I have a feeling though that those situations where a LA is in throwing range but not reviving range might be quite limited. But revive grenades have other applications than just LA/Inf, so it seems like a good approach for that.

I've seen the ideas of a medic "drag" ability as well. Perhaps they can make up some nanite magic and give Medics a device (perhaps a type of res upgrade) that either allows a ranged res or the ability to teleport the body to the medic (on a reasonable cooldown and range of course). Could be one of many medic tool options. The tradeoff would be longer time between res's and perhaps another downside, but for medics working a lot with LA/Infs, it might be a good tool and more reliable than the grenades. Something like that wouldn't be usable across the map but I would think if a medic could get within 25 or so meters of a body that he could teleport it and then revive.


I agree with the rest of the post too about them being too one-dimensional. That's what I'm referring to when I say they don't bring enough value to the squad.

[Grognard]

In the E3 demo, LA did indeed have smoke and flash grenades along with C4 grenades, which kind of spawned the original idea of a grenadier class I think; I can of course see your concerns for a grenadier LA, though I think it would be hard to tell if it would be a good implementation without testing it first. Like everything else, basically :P


Actually, the process in my brain, that caused me to suggest a utilitarian grenadier function for this class, was this...

There was a debate about who should carry ammo packs, not if, rather who. So, since I will play LA, I responded that I felt the engineer synergizes best in that role.
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=722918&postcount=161

Thereafter, Dagron, and Knightwyvern expressed a concern, just as Malorn is, that the LA class is limited in scope. Its a very valid concern due to this being a team-based game. So, this got me thinking about what is not represented in the game yet, and synergizes well with a class that is definable by its mobility, yet lacking in utility.

After some time, I realized something was added to the Engineer, so, was there something that does not synergize as well, or better with the LA class in comparison, to transfer some of the pressure off the engineer class, something non-iconic. A role of some kind, not thought of yet. Since, spotter was taken, and wasnt part of the engineer class, I tried to be somewhat original, and think out of the current box.

It was then I saw the 5 explosives for engineer, and 3 for everyone else, specifically the sticky grenade... In my mind I had an image of myself, as an LA jumping at a tank (oddly enough, a MagRider... and I'm Vanu), hitting the ground at the right time, being close enough to stick a moving vehicle, and jumping away, blowing a chunk of armor off, unharmed. A highly mobile, highly useful "explosives based" function, that can help a squad deal with all kinds of threats, flashbangs, smoke, C4, etc. Now, coupled with stickies, a lesser form of AV. Also, with perhaps charger grenades, an ECM-type utility as well. So, with all the mobility based utility grenades, the "grenadier" name was a no brainer, and lead to the suggestion.
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=723416&postcount=225

I still maintain that it would be fun, useful, and in keeping with the primary class focus. Very little needs to be done from a developer stand point, as everything is in the game already, and they were going to remove the ammo dispensation ability from this class anyway. LA would definately not be anything close to a one trick pony, with a grenadier secondary, as I envision the implementation. Any imbalances, such as creating a "bouncing AOE spammer" is as easily fixed as any other class, once its used in action.

[bpostal]

The LAs mobility makes them perfect for recon and flanking. As it stands the Ammo resupply should be an Engy thing and it shouldn't be spammable. Gaining the high ground is going to be a big deal in PS2 and without air support the LA seems to be tailor made for this kind of game play.
Adv spotting certs could bring some extra usefulness. Perhaps some kind of NV/Thermal vision ability?
Grenades cost resources so I don't expect them to be spammed but it would be fun to have a viable Grenadier hit and run build.
I would hope after a short 'learning' period most LA players would realize that playing smart, staying alive and most importantly staying within support range of your squad is more important than getting killed trying to kill whore atop a tree or wall.

[OutlawDr]

I hadn't thought of revive grenades with that purpose before, but that is a good idea. If a LA dies on top of a building and the medic has a good idea where he is and they cert for such grenades to aid the squad, then it could indeed be a good way of getting them back in the fight without using squad spawn or getting separated. I have a feeling though that those situations where a LA is in throwing range but not reviving range might be quite limited. But revive grenades have other applications than just LA/Inf, so it seems like a good approach for that.

I've seen the ideas of a medic "drag" ability as well. Perhaps they can make up some nanite magic and give Medics a device (perhaps a type of res upgrade) that either allows a ranged res or the ability to teleport the body to the medic (on a reasonable cooldown and range of course). Could be one of many medic tool options. The tradeoff would be longer time between res's and perhaps another downside, but for medics working a lot with LA/Infs, it might be a good tool and more reliable than the grenades. Something like that wouldn't be usable across the map but I would think if a medic could get within 25 or so meters of a body that he could teleport it and then revive.


I agree with the rest of the post too about them being too one-dimensional. That's what I'm referring to when I say they don't bring enough value to the squad.
A ranged revive ability coupled with revive grenades I think would cover most situations without needing to resort to teleports. A good LA that supports his squad shouldn't get that separated that a medic can neither see him nor get him with a grenade. That ranged revive ability could be an alt attack of a specialized revive tool. It shoots a dart with nanite healing goodness. Drawback is that its normal revives (plus the ranged) are slower than normal...something like that.

[GuyFawkes]

I see LA as a role within itself , and needing little else . A team can all be LA , fly into enemy territory (need no galaxy either) , quickly get to their target . Hack and then deploy out to their respective roles (max,ha , eng, medic etc etc)within their group to defend their objective .
Or be like a spearhead to get in fast , signal to the heavy squad to come in while they give light cover , and move on to the next or just act as recon .

[Xyntech]

I certainly believe that between the versatile angles an LA trooper can assist their squad from, along with thing like medics revive grenades to keep them in the fight, LA will be able to be worked into many mixed unit squads, but I also think it will shine the brightest when working as a tactical response unit alongside an entire squad of other LA (perhaps some Infiltrators and maybe a medic as well. Maybe even an engi depending on the operation).

Agiles were never about strong combined arm pushes in the first game. Back in the days of Surgile, they were elite duelists who could break through defensive lines or ambush small groups of enemies. Even after Surgile was removed and Rexo was buffed and became the all pervasive armor type, Agile was still the tactical response armor, because it was the only armor that could pilot a rapid response aircraft.

We don't currently know if HA will be able to fly ES fighters (the devs probably don't even know yet), but I think it's partially irrelevant to this particular topic. No longer will rapid responders wear Agile just because it's the most powerful armor they can fit into their aircraft with, they will use it because it is a more tactically diverse armor in and of itself.

A squad of 10 Scythe pilots rapidly responding to a back hack, bailing out, and kiting/grenading and just generally hitting the enemy from every angle they don't expect is going to be a powerful tactic.

So I'm not to worried about LA. I wouldn't mind seeing their role(s) solidified further into something distinctly LA, but I think they already have a clear place in the game. It may not be a place that is always the best for squads who wish to keep a tight formation, but you'd have to be pretty myopic to think those kinds of squads or the only type that needs to be supported.

Also, a little more Quake never hurt anybody. Keep the slower paced MAXes and HA intact and balanced/useful, but let LA be LA. The game could use a little twitch. Surgile had to nixed in the first game, but that was because the game was broken and Surgile played into that problem. The fast paced shooter mechanic itself would have been fine aside from that. The game shouldn't try to be everything to everyone, but there's no reason it can't have a large range of play styles and still be balanced.

[Electrofreak]

I see LA as a role within itself , and needing little else . A team can all be LA , fly into enemy territory (need no galaxy either) , quickly get to their target . Hack and then deploy out to their respective roles (max,ha , eng, medic etc etc)within their group to defend their objective .
Or be like a spearhead to get in fast , signal to the heavy squad to come in while they give light cover , and move on to the next or just act as recon .

While this may be true, they still need skills and abilities to certify in. The question is ultimately what that will be... right now it's ammo resupply which the developers clearly are not comfortable with, and I agree with them. Players have suggested LA be grenadiers, or special-ops using placed explosives (which makes me think of sappers) to take out defenses in advance of an assault.

Other options are scouts, anti-area-denial, or light AI/AV/AA as I suggested.

While we may say "LA fit their role just fine", we still need to define what their abilities may be.

[ThermalReaper]

My guess they are the supporting flankers to the MAXs and HAs on the front lines. I'm not sure If I should speak about this till beta but we can still debate about it.

[ParisTeta]

Some interessting ideas and valid concerns, but i think most are to focused to give it a secondary role in primary strength, but there are many ways to fine tune that. But first:

Primary Advantage is mobility, even indoors (get up catwalks etc.) which makes them flanker and first line attacker or very mobile defensive. But with just the carabine(?) they just effective for Infantry. They need to be more effective against everything else, making the difference...in squad/platoon play, not in solo play.

Grenadier/Rocklet is the best idea so far, but need some fine tuning, so here are some suggestion:

a) PS1 Punisher Style, you have a underslung greande launcher on your weapon with limited ammunition 1-2 Shots max which can loaded with grenade and rocklets of different typ. EMP to disable turrets (even manable) weaken MAXes and Vehicle (reduced ROF,Speed, dsibale special ability for a short amount of time). Then some area denial weapon against Infantry, a plasma patch on the ground something like that though not stackbale or only limited.

This would allow them for better squad use, can weaken MAXes, but not just solo them) and make some area denial against infantry. Still looking at this class and think "How does it fit in my squad" is wrong, the question is "How does that fit into my plattoon?" is the right one, a small squad of LA can do the difference!.

b) Super speciality, Rocklet or Thumber like weapon, but no carabine, and should be alot weaker against infantry, so no carabine anymore.

c) Underslugged Shotgun with 2-4 Shots for extra close range punch inside a base.

[Knightwyvern]

Some interessting ideas and valid concerns, but i think most are to focused to give it a secondary role in primary strength, but there are many ways to fine tune that. But first:

Primary Advantage is mobility, even indoors (get up catwalks etc.) which makes them flanker and first line attacker or very mobile defensive. But with just the carabine(?) they just effective for Infantry. They need to be more effective against everything else, making the difference...in squad/platoon play, not in solo play.

Grenadier/Rocklet is the best idea so far, but need some fine tuning, so here are some suggestion:

a) PS1 Punisher Style, you have a underslung greande launcher on your weapon with limited ammunition 1-2 Shots max which can loaded with grenade and rocklets of different typ. EMP to disable turrets (even manable) weaken MAXes and Vehicle (reduced ROF,Speed, dsibale special ability for a short amount of time). Then some area denial weapon against Infantry, a plasma patch on the ground something like that though not stackbale or only limited.

This would allow them for better squad use, can weaken MAXes, but not just solo them) and make some area denial against infantry. Still looking at this class and think "How does it fit in my squad" is wrong, the question is "How does that fit into my plattoon?" is the right one, a small squad of LA can do the difference!.

b) Super speciality, Rocklet or Thumber like weapon, but no carabine, and should be alot weaker against infantry, so no carabine anymore.

c) Underslugged Shotgun with 2-4 Shots for extra close range punch inside a base.

I believe that there is already a underslung grenade launcher and shotgun customization option, so that is already covered.

As far as effectiveness vs MAX and armor, I believe (this is just my opinion) that the C4 grenade's purpose is to give LA that basic level of anti-armor effectiveness. Hard to say without knowing the actual mechanics of it.

[Muncher]

I liked it as it was in the streams, a lighter more mobile variation of the regular assault. I don't really like the idea of making it an explosive class, it doesn't fit well with it's mobility.

To embellish on this, I would much prefer them to be skirmishers, popping in and out and harrying larger groups of players. An explosive class just wouldn't use the vertical well, and doesn't seem to fit with the light assault at all.
I see clear problems with LA grenadier. So far I have liked the LA gameplay in the videos. Jump jetting and still hitting your target looks very hard to pull off requiring a good deal of skill, but with high rewards. I fear if grenades are emphasized, LA will turn into a wanna be tribes class spamming gernades and rockets from the air. This is ok in tribes since everyone has jets and is insanely mobile. In PS2, with slower pacing, they'll just have to aim in the general direction to hit their slower opponents, all the while flying like a mad monkey to avoid getting shot back.

Basically this. I really liked the LA in the streams, and I would really hate to see my hopefully main class become a boring AOE spam class.

[Sledgecrushr]

Wherever we go with this I think it would be cool if they could dual wield light weaponry. They would look bad assed swooping in for thue kill with two pistols blazing.

[Dagron]

I liked it as it was in the streams, a lighter more mobile variation of the regular assault.

To embellish on this, I would much prefer them to be skirmishers, popping in and out and harrying larger groups of players.

Yes, that's what they are and what everyone seems to like about them. We're not proposing changing that, we just want more gameplay style options.


I don't really like the idea of making it an explosive class, it doesn't fit well with it's mobility.

An explosive class just wouldn't use the vertical well, and doesn't seem to fit with the light assault at all.

I really liked the LA in the streams, and I would really hate to see my hopefully main class become a boring AOE spam class.

Yep, we've all come to agree it shouldn't become an AoE spammer over the last few pages but we did suggest a few times that they should be more of a utility type grenadier than the explosive type. What i'd like to see are thoughts, suggestions or alternatives to that.


Wherever we go with this I think it would be cool if they could dual wield light weaponry. They would look bad assed swooping in for thue kill with two pistols blazing.

You're a fan of the fett man, right? :lol:

[GuyFawkes]

While this may be true, they still need skills and abilities to certify in. The question is ultimately what that will be... right now it's ammo resupply which the developers clearly are not comfortable with, and I agree with them. Players have suggested LA be grenadiers, or special-ops using placed explosives (which makes me think of sappers) to take out defenses in advance of an assault.

Other options are scouts, anti-area-denial, or light AI/AV/AA as I suggested.

While we may say "LA fit their role just fine", we still need to define what their abilities may be.

I think their skills and abilities will focus around what they are, will the jump jets be everlasting like in e3 demo, or will it have some sort of limitation like the vs maxes had in ps1? How long can they jump, can they increase/decrease speed at expense of accuracy etc , just a few. Maybe dropping flares or smoke bombs for following teams or just to make a quick exit unseen .

[Dagron]

I think their skills and abilities will focus around what they are, will the jump jets be everlasting like in e3 demo, or will it have some sort of limitation like the vs maxes had in ps1? How long can they jump, can they increase/decrease speed at expense of accuracy etc , just a few. Maybe dropping flares or smoke bombs for following teams or just to make a quick exit unseen .

I don't know what the PS1 limitations were, but the E3 ones didn't seem everlasting: the jump seemed to only barely make it to the inside of the outer walls.

Besides, you could tell the forward momentum dropped very quickly so it's utility is pretty limited to vertical movement.

[TheInferno]

Don't suppose anyone can do some good ol' fashioned science and see how long of a jump burst the Light Assault had by looking at the fuel bar in the bottom right (normal) or on the left side of the reticule (centered)?

[OutlawDr]

I've been wanting to give LA an advanced spotting ability thats different from the Inf's, doesn't promote more lone wolf behavior, and has synergy with squad members and even the Inf own spotting ability.

Heres an idea. A LA players spots and broadcasts like normal, however as long as he stays within 25-30m (or whatever range is deemed balanced) the target will remain spotted for all squad members see. It doesn't just work with targets that the LA spotted but with any target spotted by a squad member. So if a Inf spots a target it will remain spotted if an LA in his squad remains within range of it.

[Muncher]

I think binoculars that would let them spot farther away players would help them as scouts.

[Kriegson]

Ultimately, I think this is something we're going to need hands on experience to determine. The role in and of itself should be complementary to both squad and total force (infantry, Air, Armor) tactics.

The basis of the idea is mobility, with the additions of grenades that can function on a tactical level, or are forced to in order to make the most of them. You can toss a frag into a room and wound a few soldiers (in PS), but with a flashbang and a few voice commands, you can clear it.

Smoke is most useful in certain context. If your force is advancing, throw smoke in front of the enemy to conceal them. If your enemies are bunkered down, use smoke to make their position useless and to conceal some frags throw in afterwards.

The assault is the spearhead of a more subtle variety. Mobility over raw force, concealing yourself from the enemy or outright blinding them rather than "hiding" as an infiltrator will need to do. Taking perches to fire down on engagements rather than wading into them.

[Noivad]

For those interested FM 3-21.8 describes a US Military Rifle Platoon and Squad. Google it.


The following for those of you trying to mix classes or roles of Infanty Type Warriors.

PS1 had Light Assult - It used a weapon called the supressor and was very effective with it. Over distance a supressor would cut through Rexo armor, even Max Armor in seconds, especially if it was being used with concertrated fire from more then one warrior. Hint: Team Play Insert Here.

There was also medium, heavy, and special assult. they had their own role.

Real World Infantry Squads.

Light Assult is Airborne Special Forces - Airborne, and Air Assult Troops. They jump out of aircraft, or get flown in by helicopter.

They move fast, are air mobile, Rapid deployment type troops. The 124th Infantry, 101st Airbourne, 10 Mountain come to mind. That means no big weapons. You can carry only so much on your back.

They work behind and flank enemy positions taking out Command and Control,
Air defense, Communication, artillary type units.

Medium Assult Troops deployed are grunts - Straight Leggers who hump on two leggs. They get a ride whenever they can by anyone. They are the main stay of any Army. The Pure {Grunt} Infantry.

Heavy Assult - Are Mechanized Infantry types, with all the Specialized Infantry equipment. Anti Armor ect. They get driven into battle areas. So is their equipment.

Maxes would be like support units - Air Defense Artillary, Artillary, TOE Squads, ect.

The Basic Infanty Squad is comprosed of:
NOTE: Not A heavy weapons Squad.

Squad Leader
The squad leader holds a rank of Staff Sergeant. Staff Sergeants are armed with either an M16A2, or M4A1. They are equipped with binoculars as well as an assortment of grenades. Grenade load outs will vary based on mission requirements, and rules of engagement. As a squad leader they direct fire team movements, therefore must know where their team leaders are located at all times.

Fire Team Leader
The fire team leader holds a rank of Sergeant. Sergeants command one of the 4-man fire teams in each squad. A team leader is armed with either an M16A2 or M4A1. They are provided binoculars

Private
Other members of the squad have a starting rank of private. They can be riflemen, automatic riflemen or grenadiers.

Automatic Rifleman
The automatic rifleman (AR) is wields the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW). This Soldier provides high volumes of fire due, however at the cost of weight. An AR can play a support role by deploying the bipod on the SAW to improve the weapon’s accuracy.

Grenadier
The grenadier is a basic rifleman with the added ability to launch grenades. A grenadier is armed with the M203, which is an M16A2 with a mounted M203 grenade launcher. The M203 can fire 40mm high explosive projectiles, which have an effective kill radius of about 5-meters.

Rifleman
The rifleman is the basic component of an infantry squad. They are armed with either an M16A2 or M4A1. They tend to be equipped with more grenades (e.g.: fragmentation, smoke, stun) compared to their counterparts since they carry less equipment than their counterparts.

Advanced Marksman
The Advanced Marksman is issued a highly accurate rifle. They are the squad’s designated marksman (sniper) and therefore are used to provide accurate long-range rifle fire with either the M24 SWS or M82A1 rifles. Due to the nature of their mission, they have also been issued the M9 Beretta Pistol.

Hope this enlightens some of you. :evil:

[RageMasterUK]

I actually think the ammo drop feature for LA might not be that bad when the servers fill up for real. Everyone who is not LA is really going to have love for them. Ammo runs for your squad in heavy combat could be an epic premise, win loss class dependent team based moments. It folds LA into a squad logic quite well IMO.

My true opinion is that Light Assault looks balanced and has its place already with the JetPack feature, but I have this radical idea, so I'll fire from the hip, just for kicks.

I got an idea that assists the LA in the skirmisher role. Some sort of short duration phaseshifting combat teleport feature thingy.


FLASHBACK TELEPORTER
When a light assault triggers the special, their position is remembered, they get to move and shoot for 1-2 seconds (or whatever a balanced duration is) before they flash-warp back to where they activated the special. Then their cooldown starts. There would be appropriate visual effects so people know whats happening. Would provide a deception and scouting element to Light Assault combat.


Could be used in many ways. You could use it in direct combat to flash back so you appear behind an opponent foolishly chasing you around a corner. You could break cover to draw fire from snipers only to snap back in cover. You could scout around corners for your friendlies, draw fire and flash back to your squads medic before the grenades blow up.

Open fire from one side of a corridor, then from another. Draw an impending Mag-mower roadkiller to one side of the road, and snap back to the other side before impact. Strafeshoot twice through a narrow window at the enemy while travelling in the same direction both passes.

It could allow you to get in close to place C4 and get outside the blast radius easier. Drop down from upon high for a kill, and regain your height advantage instantly w/o using jetfuel.

Obv to say it would need an apt enough cooldown to be an ace-in-the-hole, keep it till you really need it kinda feature. It would bend players heads :D Yes the light assault class should be the head-bending class.

I dont know how serious I am about the idea but I thought I'd pitch it anyway!

-RageMasterUK

[TheInferno]

:huh:

So it's basically like Mark & Recall from Morrowind except the Recall automatically occurs a certain period of time after the Mark?

Seems interesting, but I'd prefer the Light Assault kept the jetpack on it's own, honestly.

[diLLa]

That ability just doesn't fit in a competitive shooter.

[Sledgecrushr]

Since the LA class is going to be operating pretty much independently from the bulk of your forces perhaps the LA should be able to spec in a simple way into the other classes. Maybe we should have kind of a light medic with a jump pack, light engineer, etc..

[TheInferno]

I'd rather not have Light Assault become Light Everything, honestly.

[Grognard]

I've been wanting to give LA an advanced spotting ability thats different from the Inf's, doesn't promote more lone wolf behavior, and has synergy with squad members and even the Inf own spotting ability.


Why not a spotting grenade? That has precedent in all kinds of SciFi... It retains the grenadier aspect secondary, adds the elusive 5th grenade type, is not an explosive, and gives difinitive squad utility. Good/bad?

[Knightwyvern]

Since the LA class is going to be operating pretty much independently from the bulk of your forces perhaps the LA should be able to spec in a simple way into the other classes. Maybe we should have kind of a light medic with a jump pack, light engineer, etc..

Hmm. Novel idea. I'm not sure how well it would work or how balanced it would be, but it's the only idea I've heard other than the utility grenadier idea that I actually like.

Why not a spotting grenade? That has precedent in all kinds of SciFi... It retains the grenadier aspect secondary, adds the elusive 5th grenade type, is not an explosive, and gives difinitive squad utility. Good/bad?

Currently the Infiltrator has an IFF device that shows enemies on the map; perhaps the LA could share this utility?

[Grognard]

Currently the Infiltrator has an IFF device that shows enemies on the map; perhaps the LA could share this utility?


Interesting, I knew they had IFF, I didnt remember it being a throwable device.