Empire-hopping restrictions in CBT.

[NewSith]

This crossed my mind when I was looking at that loyalty thread around here. Point is - there're (will be) lots of people wishing to try out all empires, but it is highly possible that CBT at first will be restricted to 1-2 servers. That means that the rule of "1 Empire per Server" will not work as intended, for people who'll want to try out all empires (and actually give corresponding feedback accordingly) will not be able to do that.

My thought is all in the name of the thread, now what's your take on this?

[Immigrant]

This crossed my mind when I was looking at that loyalty thread around here. Point is - there're (will be) lots of people wishing to try out all empires, but it is highly possible that CBT at first will be restricted to 1-2 servers. That means that the rule of "1 Empire per Server" will not work as intended, for people who'll want to try out all empires (and actually give corresponding feedback accordingly) will not be able to do that.

My thought is all in the name of the thread, now what's your take on this?

Sorry I don't game enough to know what CBT means? I tried to google it but some weird stuff came up. :rofl:

Empire defection (change) should be allowed on the same server but only for costly real money fee (station cash), as for completely new players I dunno maybe it should be free up until battle rank 5 or in first week or two.

[NewSith]

Sorry I don't game enough to know what CBT means? I tried to google it but some weird stuff came up. :rofl:

If that was serious - it's Closed Beta Test.

[Daffan]

A beta is for testing. (CBT = Closed Beta )

it's good to go around.

[Baneblade]

Closed Beta Test

[Immigrant]

If that was serious - it's Closed Beta Test.

Yes, it was serious thanks. Since there's going to be a full reset before opening I don't see why not, they should allow it.

[Pyreal]

Who says 'CBT'? 'Beta' and 'Alpha' are the abbreviated terms. 'CB', 'OB', and 'IB' are the acronyms for Beta as far as I've ever seen.

If you look up CBT you get something rather... horrifying.


On Topic: It's likely that the '1 player' restriction will be lifted for Beta. At any rate I'm sure the Devs will set a system for the testing of all Factions and mechanics, as is the sole purpose of Beta.

[Duddy]

During the CBT I can see the use in keeping it open to facilitate testing, but I do think they need to be able to test with it in place. Possibly something to be done in OBT.

[mirwalk]

I say no for two reasons. First is that it will better allow every faction to be tested. Second it will highlight if one faction has better stuff as usually people will jump to that faction.

[bigcracker]

Everything needs to be tested,So if i have to wear the icky red or blue i just gotta suck it up.

[Hmr85]

In beta NO. Come live yes.

[infinite loop]

Yes, it was serious thanks. Since there's going to be a full reset before opening I don't see why not, they should allow it.

Actually there may not be a full reset. Per Higby on reddit:


Good question. We've talked about that a bit internally. Really the answer comes down to how right we get it when we start the beta, if there are massive resource / xp exploits that we have going on in the beta, we'll probably end up flushing characters. If it's stable and life is good then we may not have to. My expectation is there will be at least some character resets throughout the beta.

[TheInferno]

Deleted

[bpostal]

I can't imagine they wouldn't do a full character reset once the servers go live.
With that said, Empire restrictions during beta would only hamper testing so, no.

[Knightwyvern]

In beta NO. Come live yes.

Hm. This makes almost no sense to me whatsoever. Could you elaborate on your thought process a little bit?

IMO, it makes sense that beta testers should run the full gamut and cover as much as possible. At least, if we want to really test the game well and make it better.

[NEWSKIS]

For the sake of testing the most number of things it shouldnt be restricted.

On a side note, with this game being free to play, you can't stop that from happening since people with just make another account and switch empires. So there's no point in trying to restrict it.

[TurelSun]

For the sake of testing the most number of things it shouldnt be restricted.

On a side note, with this game being free to play, you can't stop that from happening since people with just make another account and switch empires. So there's no point in trying to restrict it.

I think the point is to restrict people from taking their experienced characters to other factions, not really to keep them from starting new characters.


Yes, we've seen that they already allow more options than will be available at launch(like MAX units using vehicles), so this makes sense. Perhaps halfway through Beta or into Open Beta they'll begin restricting it to test out player populations.

[The Kush]

I don't think there will be restrictions in closed beta. They want people to find glitches everywhere in the game.

[AvacadoEight]

GAAAH! MY EYES AND MY SEARCH HISTORY D: :cry:

[NEWSKIS]

I think the point is to restrict people from taking their experienced characters to other factions, not really to keep them from starting new characters.


Yes, we've seen that they already allow more options than will be available at launch(like MAX units using vehicles), so this makes sense. Perhaps halfway through Beta or into Open Beta they'll begin restricting it to test out player populations.

I was thinking more along the lines of population balance for both beta and afterwards. So more of a people jumping to the winning empire.

[CutterJohn]

It should never be restricted, period. Players can already switch whenever they wish by making a new account. Restricting peoples 'main' accounts and/or characters from jumping to another empire just means you've lost all of your control over them. You can no longer use incentives to keep them where they are or prevent them from switching.


Lets look at two scenarios. In the first, players are able to switch empires and servers with their main character.

- Players will abide by restrictions on transfers, such as for population imbalances. They cannot switch now, but they know that they will be able to switch later when the populations are under control.

- Players can be incentivized to switch to an underdog empire with temporary bonuses, and will be far more likely to go since it benefits their main character.

- Players can will be able to play with friends on other empires/servers without having to roll a new character and give up all of their advancement.

- Players can keep their character intact, along with their friends lists and whatnot, maintaining constistancy in their online presence.



Now, in a system where players cannot switch.

- Players will switch whenever they feel like it, simply using a new account. Since they are already prepared to sacrifice their advancement in another character, there is zero motivation against this behavior.

- Players will have zero incentive to make a new character on an underdog empire. They've already given up their advancement by switching, so obviously this is not their primary consideration.

- Players will be extremely hesitant to play with friends on different empires/servers, since they will be required to abandon their current main. Whoa, You play PS2 as well? What server? Oh. Well, nevermind then.

- Players will be in new accounts/characters on the new servers, meaning they will lose contact with their friends, hurting their, and their friends, sense of community. Where's Joe? No idea, must not be playing tonight. Except he is, on his other account, and now you can't ask him to come back to help you out.



By prohibiting this behavior, you lose the ability to regulate it in any fashion.

[TurelSun]

I was thinking more along the lines of population balance for both beta and afterwards. So more of a people jumping to the winning empire.

Right, but then there is a point to restricting it after launch(or in open Beta). I think it works well. As a new player, you haven't invested much in your character or your faction, so creating new characters is easy, allowing you to find the faction and playstyle your prefer. Once you get into it though, and have invested more, it will be less appealing to just jump ship when your Empire isn't doing as well.

People will still do it, I see gamers up and quit at the smallest signs of defeat, but they'll probably be willing to endure a lot more before doing so if they can't just take their main character. That'll maybe give players time develop some faction loyalties and get people who will stick it out no matter what, which are really the kind of players you want in a game like this.

[KTNApollo]

No restriction at all would be the best way they can go about it. If people really want to spy, they'll just make extra accounts, so why doesn't SOE just allow multiple empires on one server? I have friends who want to play other factions than I do, but it would be nice to be able to compete against them and maybe join up with them on the same server.

[TheInferno]

I would be surprised if you couldn't buy an extra character slot and the right to join any empire with that.

Might happen, might not.

[TurelSun]

It should never be restricted, period. Players can already switch whenever they wish by making a new account. Restricting peoples 'main' accounts and/or characters from jumping to another empire just means you've lost all of your control over them. You can no longer use incentives to keep them where they are or prevent them from switching.


Lets look at two scenarios. In the first, players are able to switch empires and servers with their main character.

- Players will abide by restrictions on transfers, such as for population imbalances. They cannot switch now, but they know that they will be able to switch later when the populations are under control.

- Players can be incentivized to switch to an underdog empire with temporary bonuses, and will be far more likely to go since it benefits their main character.

- Players can will be able to play with friends on other empires/servers without having to roll a new character and give up all of their advancement.

- Players can keep their character intact, along with their friends lists and whatnot, maintaining constistancy in their online presence.



Now, in a system where players cannot switch.

- Players will switch whenever they feel like it, simply using a new account. Since they are already prepared to sacrifice their advancement in another character, there is zero motivation against this behavior.

- Players will have zero incentive to make a new character on an underdog empire. They've already given up their advancement by switching, so obviously this is not their primary consideration.

- Players will be extremely hesitant to play with friends on different empires/servers, since they will be required to abandon their current main. Whoa, You play PS2 as well? What server? Oh. Well, nevermind then.

- Players will be in new accounts/characters on the new servers, meaning they will lose contact with their friends, hurting their, and their friends, sense of community. Where's Joe? No idea, must not be playing tonight. Except he is, on his other account, and now you can't ask him to come back to help you out.



By prohibiting this behavior, you lose the ability to regulate it in any fashion.

Very good points, I think you changed my mind a bit on it, but I still feel like you're going to see more people leaving factions/servers that are not doing well than you will have people people transferring in for temporary benefits.

I do agree, people should be able to switch to play with friends, and maybe for a change of pace, but those need limitations IMO. I'm not in favor of totally prohibiting transfers... but time-limits and situations need to be in place. If people switch factions and servers for any reasons I believe it will be harmful to factional loyalties.


No restriction at all would be the best way they can go about it. If people really want to spy, they'll just make extra accounts, so why doesn't SOE just allow multiple empires on one server? I have friends who want to play other factions than I do, but it would be nice to be able to compete against them and maybe join up with them on the same server.

I don't think the main issue is spies here, its more gamers jumping ship at the first sign of trouble. Its kind of like having all your men abandon the base just because another faction made a successful galaxy drop. Doesn't help anything, and FPSers and gamers in general(those outside of outfits) are use to doing that.

[GuyFawkes]

I really dont care either way for beta but a definite no come live.

If they want to switch, fine , make another account . soe will benefit from you forking out to buy stuff for your alt.

[SztEltviz]

No restriction in beta TEST, thats the whole concept to test it...

When it goes live, maybe allow multiple characters with different empire, BUT then you CAN NOT choose your character to play, you have to play with that character that in the lowest pop empire.

If thats not ok for you, than choose one side and stick with it.

[Vanu Techpriest]

I could be wrong but I think one of the developers mentioned this during the E3 livestream. He said there will be no faction restrictions and you can create multiple characters per account which can be any faction.

Since the game will be free to play. I see no reason to restrict an account to one faction since they can just make another free account.

[GuyFawkes]

I could be wrong but I think one of the developers mentioned this during the E3 livestream. He said there will be no faction restrictions and you can create multiple characters per account which can be any faction.

Since the game will be free to play. I see no reason to restrict an account to one faction since they can just make another free account.

Bags had a faq with this on, and its listed 1 empire per server. Listening to last nights AGN , seems theyve gone further and maybe 1 character per account now . All good news if thats true.

[Noivad]

I have no interest in empire hopping in beta or real game. 1 account - 1 Character - TR for Life. :evil:

[Red Beard]

I have no interest in empire hopping in beta or real game. 1 account - 1 Character - TR for Life. :evil:

"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it!" ;)

[CutterJohn]

harmful to factional loyalties.

Are they loyalties if they are forced? Not everyone cares for the 'rah rah red rules, blue/purple sucks!' stuff.


And if you really do feel that loyalty, being able to switch won't matter, because you won't do it.


Very good points, I think you changed my mind a bit on it, but I still feel like you're going to see more people leaving factions/servers that are not doing well than you will have people people transferring in for temporary benefits.

Thing is, if you teach people that the method to get what they want is to break the rules, they'll now be used to breaking the rules all the time, even if what they wanted initially was innocuous and benign.

People that want to switch from a losing fight are going to switch from a losing fight. Be it by leaving the continent, or by leaving the server, or worst, leaving the game entirely. Theres nothing that can be done about this. Since there is in fact nothing that can be done about this, it can be discarded as a reason for having these rules.

Now we have to ask, ok, we're going to let people switch, since we cannot stop it anyway. How do we do it in a fashion that offers the least restrictions, while at the same time, has the least detrimental impact?

You might say, no, don't worry about the restrictions, but again, if its too restricted, people will just stop caring about the intentions and switch anyway. Unreasonable/punitive restrictions will be met with defiance.



Perhaps, lets start with who wants to switch.

- The Buddy. People who want to play with people they've met, either online, or offline. These people will abide by restrictions.. Their friends will be their tomorrow to play with as well. These guys will wait to switch, no hurry, but they'll want to switch back when their friend leaves. They're their for the friend, not the empire/server.

- The Indecisive. Some people have no clue what they want to do, all they know is that right now, they want to do something else. These guys want a change of pace, and they want it right now, but they won't be very particular about their destination.

- The Tourists. Sort of like the indecisive, but these are friends that want to have a group night on another empire to raise some havoc and give their friends a headache. These guys are particular. They have a goal in mind, they want to do X, maybe Y. These guys have a home, and they'll be back once their fun has been had. They will be willing to wait to switch until conditions are right, but they too will want to come back when the fun has been had/people start leaving.

- The Relocator. This guy is hunting for a new home, a new group of people to play with. He is willing to wait to switch, and may switch several times, but the swaps will be infrequent.

- The White Knight. One of the rarer breeds, this one will switch too a downtrodden empire in order to help it out/have a challenge/get increased rewards. They are very particular, want to switch right now, and go to a specific place.

- The Winner. This player has to win. If he's not winning, he's not having fun. He is also very particular.. He wants to switch right now, and switch to something thats doing good.



There may be others, but I think this covers a broad portion of people. Of them, I think we can cross the Buddies, the Tourists, and the Relocators off the list as minor issues. They'll all be more willing to abide by the spirit of the game, and don't switch in sufficient quantities to be particularly worrisome. There is little need to base gameplay rules around them. The indecisive, are a bit more thorny, since they will also cross over with the Winners.. Hey, I'm switching, so.. may as well switch to the 'good' side.

The white knights, you want to switch. Rather than being a detriment, these guys are a stabilizing force in the game, keeping things level. You can even have incentives to gather more of them.

Everyones favorite, the Winners, are an interesting beast. They are quite likely the most numerous, but worse, they are simultaneously the ones you have the most, and least, control over. It would be incredibly easy to prevent swaps from an underpopulated empire to an overpopulated empire. FPS games have been doing this forever. However, you have absolutely no control over them swapping to a different account, or quitting the game entirely and going to another game for the night.


So, we've got a few of the switchers and their relative risks identified, lets look at solutions.

- Nothing locked down. Everyone is happy, until the winners start abusing the hell out of the system, then everyone is sad. Except the Winners. Pretty sure everyone agrees this is a Bad Idea.

- Lock. Down. Everything. The other extreme. Everyone who wants to switch will dislike this. Buddies have to make new characters to play with friends. Tourists can't use their leveled up characters to use the stuff they wanted to use. Relocators and Indecisives can't do new stuff without giving up their character advancement. White Knights can't help out the other team to the best of their ability. Winners, being unable to switch, will just make a new account or bail.

- Paid transfers. Same, pretty much, except now the Relocaters are a bit happier.

- Switch time limits, ala PS1. This is workable for many, but annoying. Buddies wanted to play with their friends for a couple hours. They didn't want to swap empires. Same with the Tourists. The indecisive and relocators are fine with this.. Gets them someplace new for the night. The winners will abuse it if its a reswitching cooldown.

- Population switching limits. Can't switch from an underpopulated empire to an overpopulated empire. Most switchers are content with this. It may be annoying that night, but they can wait. Winners still hate this, same as everything else, and will still bypass it with new accounts and logging off.

- Population incentives. Not a direct control, but White Knights will love these, and will happily take the extra incentives to help out the underdogs for the night. Reverse incentives, i.e. things like -20% whatever for X hours when switching, will be a disincentive to people switching for advantage.

So, there you have it, in my opinion at least. The Winners are the only really dangerous and numerous population, but they are also the ones that can't be dealt with effectively. Prohibitions meant to stop them just end up hurting other people that want to switch for innocent reasons, all while not being any more effective against the Winners.

For everyone else, all a prohibition does is get them into the mindset that making a new account is how you bypass it, so I'll just make a new account whenever, populations be damned. Sure, you'll prevent some from switching entirely, but enough to worry about? I think not.

[Rexdezi]

Firstly, what does CBT mean?
Also, while I won't be swapping once I have settled, I don't see much of a problem for those that want to, granted that it be only 1 choice per server. (to stop people sabotaging from within by logging on as another Empire)

[CutterJohn]

Firstly, what does CBT mean?
Also, while I won't be swapping once I have settled, I don't see much of a problem for those that want to, granted that it be only 1 choice per server. (to stop people sabotaging from within by logging on as another Empire)

Your prohibition is pointless since we'll be able to make infinite accounts. Everyone will easily be able to have a spy/saboteur account on the other empires. And will be more beneficial to do so, since they can have both logged in at once.

Switching with the main = its still your main, and you'll get a bad name for yourself by being a spy/saboteur. Making an alt is untraceable, and you can be as big of a dick as you please. Plus its a new character, with no investment, so no worries if you get banned. Not only would you not stop the behavior, by prohibiting it, you've increased the likelihood of it occurring.

[Rexdezi]

Id like it if SOE make it 3 free accounts, and you'd have to pay for any more than that. Or something... idk...

[Warborn]

There's no reason at all for them to restrict empire access in the beta. I don't even understand why they'd bother doing that for release. The empires have a cap on how many people they can have per continent, and it isn't like you can lock continents anymore. So who cares? If one side gets stacked people will have to queue to play it and elect to play their VS or NC or whatever character instead of stacking TR further. And if the people on a continent are outnumbered by a stacked empire, well, so what? Even if they take every base and tower and outpost, it doesn't change anything.

So, as far as I'm concerned, there shouldn't be any empire-hopping restrictions at all. When there is zero consequence at all for winning or losing, who even cares if one empire outnumbers the others?

[raidyr]

Sorry I don't game enough to know what CBT means? I tried to google it but some weird stuff came up.


ahahahaha

[TurelSun]

Are they loyalties if they are forced? Not everyone cares for the 'rah rah red rules, blue/purple sucks!' stuff.


And if you really do feel that loyalty, being able to switch won't matter, because you won't do it.



I wasn't really referring to forcing loyalties on anyone(or any of this "not red, dead" or whatever stuff), just giving them enough time in a faction to have a chance for them to form those bond of camaraderie and community. If from day one you switch factions and servers as you please an always, you never really give yourself a chance to get to know anyone.

I'm not even just referring to faction loyalties, but community development too. In many MMOs you can begin to form respect for opponents you have to fight on a regular basis, learn their play styles and they learn yours. To me thats a huge part of playing MMOs that doesn't really get a chance with no restrictions on server transfers.



- Switch time limits, ala PS1. This is workable for many, but annoying. Buddies wanted to play with their friends for a couple hours. They didn't want to swap empires. Same with the Tourists. The indecisive and relocators are fine with this.. Gets them someplace new for the night. The winners will abuse it if its a reswitching cooldown.

- Population switching limits. Can't switch from an underpopulated empire to an overpopulated empire. Most switchers are content with this. It may be annoying that night, but they can wait. Winners still hate this, same as everything else, and will still bypass it with new accounts and logging off.

- Population incentives. Not a direct control, but White Knights will love these, and will happily take the extra incentives to help out the underdogs for the night. Reverse incentives, i.e. things like -20% whatever for X hours when switching, will be a disincentive to people switching for advantage.

Last three are pretty much what I was suggesting except fleshed out more. Incentives, with restrictions but still allowing people who want to switch for reasons other than "winning" still be able to somehow.

Right, you can't stop the Winner from switching accounts, but you can keep him from taking his experienced character each time he does, and possibly you make it enough of an effort that he'll play out a losing side a little longer than he might before.

In a way, if a Winner wants to maintain 3 different accounts and rank them all up... well then he just wins. I can let him/her have that.

[LightningDriver]

There should never be any restrictions on empire hopping, because this is a free to play game. Because of that, there will be a certain percentage of people who will have three accounts and switch to the "winning team". This is unavoidable.

What needs to be properly tested in the beta, is incentives for players to stay where they are and fight, even in a losing battle.

Just my opinion anyways, and I am a loyal TR, I won't switch sides, ever, for any reason.