The flamethrower: Considerations

[Kriegson]

It's a bit strange it only occurs to me now, but there hasn't really been much of any discussion at all regarding flamethrowers, a pretty interesting addition to PS2.

In E3 it was seen on MAX's, but is that the only unit that will be able to equip them?

Will they cause damage over time? Health damage ignoring shields? Or just normal damage?

What kind of effect might they have on vehicles? If not much damage, obscuring vision perhaps?

With all the defensive and offensive possibilities of flamethrowers ,not to mention how similar they are in a sense to the traditional Jackhammer (Close range death and denial) It's something of a wonder that there's been no discussion as of yet.

[Sledgecrushr]

What I would like to see is some work on the actual modeling of the flame coming out of the flamethrower. To me it doesnt look really good the way it is now. The flame should be a bit tighter and travel further before it fizzles out. I e seen some great vintage youtube footage of flamethrowers and this is what the devs need to look at.

[Smokingrabbit]

Same thoughts here. I had expected them to be more akin to the plasma gernades in the original ps. Wish I had seen more in the e3 demo. I was struck with the same compaison to the jackhammer.

[Duddy]

It's a bit strange it only occurs to me now, but there hasn't really been much of any discussion at all regarding flamethrowers, a pretty interesting addition to PS2.

In E3 it was seen on MAX's, but is that the only unit that will be able to equip them?

Will they cause damage over time? Health damage ignoring shields? Or just normal damage?

What kind of effect might they have on vehicles? If not much damage, obscuring vision perhaps?

With all the defensive and offensive possibilities of flamethrowers ,not to mention how similar they are in a sense to the traditional Jackhammer (Close range death and denial) It's something of a wonder that there's been no discussion as of yet.

I think it just isn't in t he forefront of discussion as people appear to have other topics on their mind, however to try and answer those:

- So far we only know MAXes have it as confirmed, we've seen concept art for an infantry weapon (or was it weapon add-on?) but that doesn't confirm anything naturally.

- No idea, I'd imagine it'd have to do damage over time to things caught in the flame. E3 is the first we saw and no other details are available.

- I'd imagine they'd have little to no effect on vehicles, they appear to have been designed as a close range AI weapon so it wouldn't make sense for them to have any meaningful effect on vehicles

As for that last point, it's hard to discuss it in the relation to the Jackhammer because we know little to nothing about either of them. More importantly we don't know if the JH is even returning in a similar fashion, we know it exists but it might be an entirely different weapon this time round.

[Kriegson]

@Slege
Yeah, it does look a bit crappy at the moment, but I don't imagine it's anywhere near done. Only being on MAX's, and the MAX's themselves being just recently implemented, there's a lot of work to go around on both I imagine.

[Malorn]

What I would like to see is some work on the actual modeling of the flame coming out of the flamethrower. To me it doesnt look really good the way it is now. The flame should be a bit tighter and travel further before it fizzles out. I e seen some great vintage youtube footage of flamethrowers and this is what the devs need to look at.

The animation from the user's perspective is also quite poor. The flamethrower looks like it's Shooting at the top of the screen and not the center. Team Fortress 2 did flamethrower quite well, hope they use that as inspiration for flamethrower changes.

[Smokingrabbit]

What I would like to see is some work on the actual modeling of the flame coming out of the flamethrower. To me it doesnt look really good the way it is now. The flame should be a bit tighter and travel further before it fizzles out. I e seen some great vintage youtube footage of flamethrowers and this is what the devs need to look at.

YES the old ww2 footage. Seeing a flamethrower burn out a bunker or set a hill on fire! Or just a larger flame that more or less blinds everyone involved or set the geound aflame would be my pref.

definatly could feel more epic in scale.

[DayOne]

The main problem to me is that it just doesn't look like it's going as far as it is. Flame definitely needs to be re-done.

[Bags]

They seemed terrible at E3, so I think that's a fine implementation.

[Death2All]

They seemed terrible at E3, so I think that's a fine implementation.

I feel that flamethrower implementation can only go two ways.

Either it's insanely over powered or it's garbage. Personally, I prefer the latter.

[Retaliation]

I feel that flamethrower implementation can only go two ways.

Either it's insanely over powered or it's garbage. Personally, I prefer the latter.

Care to elaborate?

[Bags]

I feel that flamethrower implementation can only go two ways.

Either it's insanely over powered or it's garbage. Personally, I prefer the latter.

I agree. If it's anything like PS1, I may not play since everyone can have them. They are bullshit weapons.

[captainkapautz]

They are bullshit weapons.

Same can be said for automatic shotguns, yet I don't see much complaining.

[Roy Awesome]

Same can be said for automatic shotguns, yet I don't see much complaining.

Er, you apparently never heard anyone whine about the jackhammer

[Landtank]

I agree. If it's anything like PS1, I may not play since everyone can have them. They are bullshit weapons.

Eh its not a bullshit weapon, but I'd like it if they implemented some sort of way that the flame thrower could explode if shot or something, you know, make it powerful but have an obvious weakness: the tanks holding the propellant/burny stuff.

But don't make it stupid so that someone spraying and praying hits it ever time herp derp

[captainkapautz]

Er, you apparently never heard anyone whine about the jackhammer

Not in conjunction with PS2, I haven't.

[TheInferno]

Not in conjunction with PS2, I haven't.

Heh, just wait until we actually see the things. There'll be at least one thread, I bet you. Possibly ones for the MCG and Lasher as well.

I actually liked how they were at E3, mechanics wise. Animations need tweaking but the flamethrowers were extremely powerful close in while not completely ridiculous. See day 3 footage where the MAX and the Engineer (though it looks like a Medic to me) hold that one point for a long while.

It also has the advantage of turning the screen into a giant haze of fire. Very fun little toy, I'll probably play with it a bit.

[bpostal]

How about a flamethrower that is MAX only, is OP but adds a explodable tank to your back. More risk, more reward.
EDIT: Maybe make the tank immune to friendly fire as I will be rolling TR.

[TheInferno]

The flamethrower is MAX only...

[Turdicus]

The MAX AI weapons all seem to be relatively close range as is (the dual cycler and quasar both seemed to suck past mid range) so I would imagine the plan for the flamethrower is to make it something like an area denial/suppression weapon. It is capable of firing for much longer periods than the AI weapons and it causes mayhem on the screen, which makes it very difficult to see and fight back when being burned. A Max with two of those blasting a doorway would be extremely effective at breaking offensive and defensive attempts, even if it doesn't kill anybody as quickly as dual AI weapons would.

Maybe even have a sidegrade that allows a napalm effect, setting walls and the ground on fire. That'll wreak havoc eh?

[mirwalk]

yeah the guy with two flamethrows as going through troops like charcoal. But he had like 0 range. GREAT for keeping a location locked done. Easy to be shot to the ground by an enemy through a doorway. He had some backup so it was good.

[Sledgecrushr]

http://www.capitalstool.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=131463

I love the smell of napalm in the morning

[Red Beard]

I liked them just how they were.

Obviously, they were intentionally designed to have short range, as it allows a skill-based counter to high damage flames ("don't run into the fire, dumbass").

[Brusi]

If it's anything like PS1, I may not play since everyone can have them.

Sure, Bags...

[Hobitt]

Something like this would be great
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thaP_5d8ZpQ

[Nasher]

One thing I noiced about most MAXes is they have the weapons pointing to high in 1st person. So it looks like your always shooting in to the air slightly, it made it really obvious with the flamer as it looked like it's shooting over the target's head. They made this mistake on the TR MAXes in the original planetside as well :/

BTW that video is a napalm flamer I think, which is quite different. This is a WW2 one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE9XEXClDGo

[Gandhi]

I don't really like that it fans out so much, it doesn't look as convincing and it makes it really hard to see what's going on. As long as it's got really short range it's ok with me.

If it gets too powerful or spammy in beta they could always make some minor adjustments, like adding a heat gauge a la Mechwarrior 2. So in addition to "ammo" you'd also have to let the thing cool down a bit between uses or risk damaging yourself.

[Cuross]

I rather like flamethrowers in games, but I'm looking for around five meters worth of range and keep the power, but make the weapons themselves weak points. I don't like the idea of the weapons exploding, though, but rather just when you shoot it it deals ammo damage. I like that idea much better :)

[Lithious]

What I would like to see is some work on the actual modeling of the flame coming out of the flamethrower. To me it doesnt look really good the way it is now. The flame should be a bit tighter and travel further before it fizzles out. I e seen some great vintage youtube footage of flamethrowers and this is what the devs need to look at.

Agree with you. Also i've noticed that people who gets hit by one doesnt seem too catch fire which would be nice to see:)

[GhettoPrince]

you're bitching about the animations in a studio alpha build :rolleyes:

[WaryWizard]

the flame throwers were your standard cliche flamethrower. It's going to be OP if you're 1ft away, and laughably terribible when you're 5ft away. Real flame throwers shoot out flaming liquid materials that have an effective range of over 200ft, but run out of fuel very quickly. If they were to make it like a real flamethrower it would be super OP, so I see why they did it the other way.

I see it as a light show and nothing more. Keep your distance, and they'll die quickly and harmlessly.

[Socks]

I think it's interesting because it can also blind/disorient enemy players. So 1 hand has flamethrower to blind and do medium damage, other arm has AI -weapon :)

ofcourse upgradable to plasmathrower :P

[bigcracker]

If you run up to a max and he has a flame thrower you should die a quick and painful death and maybe next time you will learn to stay at a distance and not charge a max head on.

[Kriegson]

Don't forget that the user of the flamethrower is fairly blinded by it as well as any targets. A good fear, suppression, and denial weapon but probably not the most effective overall in regards to killing potential.

[Sledgecrushr]

The flame i saw in the videos was only about ten feet long but it was doing damage to about 25 feet out. Im sure the devs will fix the flamer gfx so the flames go as far as the actual damage potential.

[waldizzo]

I think this flame thrower will quickly lead to whatever punishment the new grief system brings.

[MercDT]

I agree pretty much with the points being made in this thread.

Like someone else said in this thread, a "heat gauge" should balance out the damage and range of the flamethrower if it's going to the me made like the real life ones...because really I don't think anyone here wants the flamethrower to be a puny flame puffing machine, but rather actual flamethrower that fires fairly straight jets of flames.

Speaking of flamethrowers, I think I have yet to see a game do it right.

[QuantumMechanic]

I'm curious as to which targets are vulnerable to the flamethrower and which ones are resilliant to it.

It makes sense to me that the light armored infantry classes would burn up the quickest, and MAXes and vehicles would be able to take the most damage from a flamethrower.

But from the E3 footage, we saw that dual flamethrowers did a pretty good job of taking a MAX down. Maybe it does equal damage across the board?

[Geist]

Something like this would be great
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thaP_5d8ZpQ

This. Seriously, is this considered too much range for the Flamethrower?

Would also be nice if the Flamethrower actually followed the laws of gravity. I assume their using some kind of napalm equivalent, and not propane?

Anyone else think it should stick to surfaces as well? You shoot the ground in front of a doorway before some enemies storm and it does a little damage over time while they come through. Nothing excessive, but would be awesome as a fear tactic. :D

[IMMentat]

MAX units still seem so fresh into development that its a dev-miracle they were as good looking as they were in that E3 demo.

In terms of the flamethrower I'd like to see a more gel-fluid style of flamethrower (fast moving fluid projectile stream covered in fire), but even a Wolfenstein style air-hose flame would be ok.
As long as it does not look like rapidly moving pixel art flames i will be content.

Mechanics wise I think flames should provide rapid shield destruction over a thin angle/zone of effect (maybe 10-20 degrees per flame, 30 degrees with 2 equipped) no damage bleed-through.
Only when the meat and gear below the shield is contacted by flames should it start to (rapidly) BBQ people.
Allow the flame pass beyond a target but loose 30%? of its remaining range for each target hit with a minimum range of 1? meters, maximum 4?.

At the edge of the flames range shields should last 2-3 times as long.

Keep spare ammo capacity fairly low to encourage shorter bursts of use rather than mobile firewalls (4-8 seconds fuel in one reload, 3-4 reloads available).

Please gods(devs) fix the Hud position of the flames and weapons shooting them, we will be bathing our enemies in cleansing fire, not setting off sparklers on fireworks night.