Knife = One hit kill? [Archive] - PlanetSide Universe

therandomone

2012-06-12, 07:04 AM

I posted this in the quick knife discussion because a few people mentioned that a knife shouldnt be a 1-hit kill, but I feel it deserves its on thread:

Personally, I'm against the rifle bash because I love the feeling of successfully bringing a knife to a gun fight. Sure it is slightly animalistic, but I feel like a goddamn champ when I can pull it off. Also, I think it'd be incredibly stupid to have it not 1-hit kill your opponent because why the hell would you use a knife to begin with then? I seem to be one against the world with having it be a 1-hit kill but again logistically it is easily feasible to kill someone with one hit from a knife and anyone who says otherwise clearly has little to no experience with knives (except for maybe cutting their food). I'll give three simple scenarios to explain why:

Scenario 1: If I'm behind you with a knife.
In this scenario I would knife upwards around the neck towards the skull, in doing so I sever the brain stem. By severing the brain stem you cut off motor function and basic functions like breathing. Outcome: You die.

Scenario 2: If I'm in front of you with a knife.
In this scenario I would thrust my knife through the spaces in your rib cage stabbing the heart (for added fun I give it a little twist and turn). Statistics say IF you receive immediate care (say, from a hospital) you have about a 33% chance of survival,we're on a battlefield and something tells me there are no hospital facilities on Auraxis that you can be carted of to. Outcome: You die.

Universal scenario: I'm in front or behind you with a knife.
There is also a stab that can work from either direction. Simply take the knife and thrust it downward into the soft part of the flesh in between the collar bone on the left side in close proximity of the neck toward the heart (once again, for added fun I can give it a little twist and turn). Once again, it ends up with a knife in your heart. Of course if you wanted to be tricky you could do it from the right side and angle it (though that of course takes a slightly longer blade). Outcome: You die. (Fun fact: this was a favorite of the Romans for execution because when done right you're dead before you hit the ground).

Needless to say, to not have people who are supposed to be soldiers unable to kill someone with a knife in 1 hit is absolutely preposterous. I will say I do support you having to switch to your knife though. If they unfortunately decided to keep the "quick knife", I still suggest they keep the 1-hit kill because it is easily possible and like I explained most plausible to kill someone that way.

Given all that my question becomes why shouldnt a knife be a 1-hit kill? Or if you think it should as well, why?

Sledgecrushr

2012-06-12, 07:08 AM

captainkapautz

2012-06-12, 07:08 AM

No 1-hit kill quickknife, because balance.

Equipable knife that 1-hit kills when you sneak up behind someone and perform a killanimation ala BF3 would be pretty nice, though.

Traenor

2012-06-12, 07:10 AM

I think that if you sneak up behind people it should be a one-hit kill, but frontal knifing shouldnt be as effective. If it is frontal, you can see it coming and therefore wont be able to make a lethal stab. Many people are against this because of they think it is CoD and BF influence, and while i agree, i dont think it is bad.

Anywho, knifing will be pretty bad for non-infil classes in PS2 because there will be too many people watching each others backs. Infils might make it work with their cloaking however.

Knifing is an okay addition, but not that relevant for most classes. It should however be one-hit if you can sneak up behind an enemy.

Gogita

2012-06-12, 07:12 AM

The main reason I do not want to have one-hit knife kills is because you will have many occasions where people purposely run into their opponents to knife them, because shooting takes longer to kill.

The knife should never be favorable over a gun in a normal fight. Knifes should imo only be used when:
-Out of ammo
-Stealthy kill
-You happen to be close to an enemy by chance

XLynxX

2012-06-12, 07:16 AM

I think many people understand the logistics as to why one hit kill knife works in real life, but the developers have to balance realistic gameplay and game balance. Technically, if we are going solely realistic bullets should be near 1 shot kill aswell.

I'm personally not completely against 1 hit knife kills, but it needs to be like a BF3 version where you have to stand right next to someone and it isn't instant like COD; where you can knife from a metre away and within a split second you have your gun ready again.

therandomone

2012-06-12, 07:18 AM

Unless its a sneaky back stab I dont really see using a knife as a one shot kill. Now if your knife happens to be three feet long then I would say yes getting hit by that thing would certainly ruin your day.
You're telling me a simple 8in bowie knife (which is exactly the one I personally have) wouldn't rain on your parade? I'm going to take a stab in the dark (couldnt resist) and say youre wrong.

I think that if you sneak up behind people it should be a one-hit kill, but frontal knifing shouldnt be as effective. If it is frontal, you can see it coming and therefore wont be able to make a lethal stab. Many people are against this because of they think it is CoD and BF influence, and while i agree, i dont think it is bad.

Anywho, knifing will be pretty bad for non-infil classes in PS2 because there will be too many people watching each others backs. Infils might make it work with their cloaking however.

Knifing is an okay addition, but not that relevant for most classes. It should however be one-hit if you can sneak up behind an enemy.

I agree it is mostly relevant only to infils. Though if I can get into melee distance (of course that would be fairly close range) why wouldnt it be lethal? If I get that close to you that just means you get to watch me plunge a knife into your heart.

On a side note: I completely agree with the fact there SHOULD NOT be quick knifing. You should have to equip it.

I think many people understand the logistics as to why one hit kill knife works in real life, but the developers have to balance realistic gameplay and game balance. Technically, if we are going solely realistic bullets should be near 1 shot kill aswell.

I'm personally not completely against 1 hit knife kills, but it needs to be like a BF3 version where you have to stand right next to someone and it isn't instant like COD; where you can knife from a metre away and within a split second you have your gun ready again.

I agree with the game balance which is why I think it should generally favor the guy with a gun, though again, if you're close enough ( and I mean real people close, not COD "close") it should favor the knife.

Dart

2012-06-12, 07:19 AM

Traenor

2012-06-12, 07:23 AM

If you get close to me with a knife and i am seeing it, i will brace myself. I wont stand still and wait for the knife to plunge into me. Therefore i can dodge/block, and wont be instakilled. Ofcourse, you cant make this into a knifefighting game, so i just feels that frontal knifing only should deal medium damage, therandomone.

Ductape

2012-06-12, 07:25 AM

Im not a huge fan of knives in shooters in general, I personally prefer a rifle butt to the face with a strong "crunch" sound. I like one hit melee kills from behind with a narrow hit zone though, anywhere else i think that it should be 2-3 hits. I see melee as a finisher, something for when you run out of ammo in the clip, or are close enough to get in the last 33-50% health without wasting more bullets so that you can continue to rush forward.

therandomone

2012-06-12, 07:28 AM

Sorry but this is a ridiculous idea. You never played the original PS and it shows.... You talk about 'feeling like a champ' but you're advocating one of the least skilful moves in modern gaming. The fact that it takes several hits to kill with the knife is where the achievement lies! The knife is the ultimate weapon when you really want to own someone. If you made it 1 hit kill cloakers would be the most over powered class in PS2 and we might as well rename the game to KnifingSide!
So...solely because it wasnt in the first one it shouldnt be in the second? By that logic we shouldnt have anything new. The Vanu max should be the only thing with a jet pack and we should just get rid of the light assault jet packs.
And least skillful? So getting a knife kill when people have an easy opportunity to shoot you means its not skillful? Furthermore taking multiple hits with the knife to kill someone with it is like making someone your vice president, they both become useless.

See how none of that makes any sense?

If you get close to me with a knife and i am seeing it, i will brace myself. I wont stand still and wait for the knife to plunge into me. Therefore i can dodge/block, and wont be instakilled. Ofcourse, you cant make this into a knifefighting game, so i just feels that frontal knifing only should deal medium damage, therandomone.
Much to my dismay, you bring up a completely legitimate point ( though nobody likes being proven wrong). Logically speaking you are right, and for that I must stand corrected on the legitimacy on the frontal knife attack. You have won that one my friend.

Gandhi

2012-06-12, 07:35 AM

No instant kill with knives. I don't care about what's realistic, sneaking up on someone in a hectic 1000+ man battle is not a big accomplishment, the element of surprise you win from it should be "reward" enough.

Dart

2012-06-12, 07:36 AM

So...solely because it wasnt in the first one it shouldnt be in the second? By that logic we shouldnt have anything new. The Vanu max should be the only thing with a jet pack and we should just get rid of the light assault jet packs.
And least skillful? So getting a knife kill when people have an easy opportunity to shoot you means its not skillful? Furthermore taking multiple hits with the knife to kill someone with it is like making someone your vice president, they both become useless.

See how none of that makes any sense?

See this is the kind of post you come up with when you only read the first line of a post. Since you apparently missed it the first time ONE HIT KNIFE KILLS WOULD BE HORRIBLY OVERPOWERED AND BREAK THE INFILTRATOR CLASS! Don't believe me? You should, I've got more experience of this than you. I remember when you could surge while placing boomers and how that unbalanced cloakers (and how everyone exploited it).

I'm looking forward to all the new blood this game will attract but tbh you sound like the typical COD type 'gamer' that we were all concerned about. There is a BIG difference between difficult and useless and difficult, in the modern FPS climate is no bad thing. Sadly guys like you just don't want to try.

XLynxX

2012-06-12, 07:37 AM

Sledgecrushr

2012-06-12, 07:40 AM

WNxThentar

2012-06-12, 07:41 AM

The problem is players are armored. One would think that advanced futuristic armor would provide some level of protection in areas where a single knife hit might be deadly. Even then a single bullet to the same area should be more deadly.

Maybe I'll go into the reality of close combat.

First thing is precisely controlling a knife is not as easy as many people think it is in close combat. It isn't like you'll be able to hit a area such as the neck reliably if your swing has any force behind it. So finding "weak spots" in body armour is only practical if you have the subject already motionless. The armour in PS2 would be at least equivalent to modern body armour which provides great impact protection even from the best combat knives made.

Second even if you land a blow where the armour is weakest you still need to be swinging with a good amount of force which means, unless you are specifically trained in this combat technique, you'll probably be significantly off balance and realistically easily countered.

It is also very common for people that use knives against others to cut themselves while fighting.

Close combat training in the Marines 24 years ago included learning how to deal with an opponent with a knife.

We where always trained that close hand to hand combat was a last resort.

Dart

2012-06-12, 07:42 AM

Unfortunately, you either didn't read or misunderstood his first post. "It wasn't in PS1" isn't the reason he doesn't want it in PS2, it is because in PS1 a quick knife would have made cloakers overpowered and the same could easily happen in PS2.

Ding ding ding ding we have a winner! Grabbing the wrong end of the stick and beating yourself over the head with it is a difficult way to introduce a new/bad concept.

Rexdezi

2012-06-12, 07:48 AM

If its from behind, then 1 hit kill... from the front then maybe 2 hits?

WNxThentar

2012-06-12, 07:53 AM

You're telling me a simple 8in bowie knife (which is exactly the one I personally have) wouldn't rain on your parade? I'm going to take a stab in the dark (couldnt resist) and say youre wrong.

I'm telling you if you come at me with a 8in bowie knife and I'm in body armour that protects me from bullets that I'm not going to be that threatened. My K-Bar has a 7" blade and is a proven combat knife and against unarmoured opponents it is better then no weapon but it is FAR from a 1 hit kill.

I agree it is mostly relevant only to infils. Though if I can get into melee distance (of course that would be fairly close range) why wouldnt it be lethal? If I get that close to you that just means you get to watch me plunge a knife into your heart.

Yea if they where unarmoured and didn't have a knife themselves.

On a side note: I completely agree with the fact there SHOULD NOT be quick knifing. You should have to equip it.

I agree with the game balance which is why I think it should generally favor the guy with a gun, though again, if you're close enough ( and I mean real people close, not COD "close") it should favor the knife.

And here is the devs problem and why no game to date messes with the mechanic and makes it realistic and leaves it over powered.

The only way you should be able to get a 1 shot kill with a knife is if the following conditions are met

1) The target doesn't hear or see you coming
2) The target isn't moving
3) The target isn't significantly armoured.

The devs would have to keep track of what each player sees and hears. Factor in "is the target moving" and where exactly did the knife attack hit.

Its funny because no one really complains if they miss a shot with a gun because the other player moved. But they'd freak out if they didn't get an automatic hit with a knife on a moving target simply because they are "close" I can tell you even from 5 feet away you can miss with a pistol if the target is moving.

AssassinGT

2012-06-12, 07:56 AM

eh.. TF2 had a good backstab system. I like the idea of it but.. lets keep it real. No stabbing heavy assaults/maxes. Hell even with all the armor, backstabbing a light assault seems crazy. It better be some sort of fusion cutting knife that turns steel to butter or something.. otherwise.. have fun scratching.

therandomone

2012-06-12, 07:58 AM

See this is the kind of post you come up with when you only read the first line of a post. Since you apparently missed it the first time ONE HIT KNIFE KILLS WOULD BE HORRIBLY OVERPOWERED AND BREAK THE INFILTRATOR CLASS! Don't believe me? You should, I've got more experience of this than you. I remember when you could surge while placing boomers and how that unbalanced cloakers (and how everyone exploited it).

I'm looking forward to all the new blood this game will attract but tbh you sound like the typical COD type 'gamer' that we were all concerned about. There is a BIG difference between difficult and useless and difficult, in the modern FPS climate is no bad thing. Sadly guys like you just don't want to try.

I wish there was a way for me to dictate emotion through a wall of text, because I honestly don't want to come across as rude or sarcastic. With that in mind, you do realize the irony of your post? Claiming I only read the first sentence of your post when I cite other claims made in your post...which you would have seen had you read more than just the first sentence of my post. Furthermore, I did end up agreeing with Traenor when he provided a legitimate reason against a frontal attack being lethal. With that concession in mind I think it would be much more difficult to argue that infils would be overpowered/broken. Interesting how I bring that up in the same post, yet you still managed to miss that.

And now before I go making wild assumptions about you, I've got to ask where seemed like a good idea for you to do the same to me? I'm not sure what makes you think I'm the "typical COD gamer" because that generally entails yelling "YOUR A NOOBZOR!" and other childish things when I've merely tried to engage in a logical debate. Also, a fun fact: I'm much more of an MMORPGer than anything though I do consider myself seasoned in FPS games as well.

LillRutger

2012-06-12, 07:58 AM

Dart

2012-06-12, 08:07 AM

I wish there was a way for me to dictate emotion through a wall of text, because I honestly don't want to come across as rude or sarcastic. With that in mind, you do realize the irony of your post? Claiming I only read the first sentence of your post when I cite other claims made in your post...which you would have seen had you read more than just the first sentence of my post. Furthermore, I did end up agreeing with Traenor when he provided a legitimate reason against a frontal attack being lethal. With that concession in mind I think it would be much more difficult to argue that infils would be overpowered/broken. Interesting how I bring that up in the same post, yet you still managed to miss that.

And now before I go making wild assumptions about you, I've got to ask where seemed like a good idea for you to do the same to me? I'm not sure what makes you think I'm the "typical COD gamer" because that generally entails yelling "YOUR A NOOBZOR!" and other childish things when I've merely tried to engage in a logical debate. Also, a fun fact: I'm much more of an MMORPGer than anything though I do consider myself seasoned in FPS games as well.

The fact that you like role playing is completely plausible... You seem tied to this idea of realism in FPS games. Disabuse yourself of it, it will hold you back.

If you honestly think that simply making it two hit kills from the front would balance cloakers in this scenario, you're wrong. You've still not countered my only objection to this idea; it will break the game and knife kills would account for way more kills than they ought to. Not to mention, everyone would be a cloaker! If you're trying to invent a new genre FPK, you're on the right track. Otherwise, please let this idea go.

therandomone

2012-06-12, 08:11 AM

Love how you come up with all these reasons as to why a knife should be OHK but have no explanation how the knife is supposed to go through their armor. "stab between the ribs in the heart" as if there is nothing stopping the knife on the way. And in all the cases you bring up a bullet would be equally if not mroe effective and I don't think you would like every weapon in the game to be OHK if you shoot them in the chest?

See below:

I'm telling you if you come at me with a 8in bowie knife and I'm in body armour that protects me from bullets that I'm not going to be that threatened. My K-Bar has a 7" blade and is a proven combat knife and against unarmoured opponents it is better then no weapon but it is FAR from a 1 hit kill.

I definitely see the legitimacy of some of your points (hence why I didnt think it was necessary to have them just to say, yes I agree) Though you do realize a ballistic vest designed to protect you from bullets might stop a slash (which generally isn't as lethal to begin with) but wont actually do much to stop a thrust or stab. They have specific vests to protect you from knives, which unfortunately in turn, then don't do much to protect you from bullets....its a bit of a trade off. They have began making vests with a combination of both materials to try and lessen the trade off but it become much like the saying goes "a jack of all trades is a master of none"

WNxThentar

2012-06-12, 08:14 AM

Modern shooters suck for realism. They play out like everyone is running around without bodyarmor on. Its like you guys want a sci fi game where everyone is still armored like it was ww2. I can already see from todays military that armor is beating bullets. The Taliban has a terrible time managing any kills of our brave soldiers in the field because there bullets bounce off of our guys(barring a lucky shot in an unarmored area). This is the perception of war from fighting third world militias for the last ten years and its just not correct. I want more melee options.

That they do. I find it crazy how many time someone 10 feet away from me shot me with a 40mm grenade launcher and I was blown apart and they didn't receive any damage. First off 40mm grenades take at least 3 times that distance to arm and often 5 or 6 times. It is a safety built into the grenade that I'm thankful for because my unit was coaching a battalion while they fam-fired various weapons like the M203. I was 2 shooters down from a Marine who rested the barrel of the M16 on a log of a barricade before pulling the M203 grenade launcher trigger. For those that don't know the M203 is a grenade launcher that replaces the lower hand guard around the barrel of the M16. This means the barrel of the grenade launcher is below the barrel of the rifle. Needless to say the grenade hit the log and bounced back into the firing positions. Courageous as that Marine was he yelled something as he jumped out of the pit because he thought the grenade was going to kill about a half dozen other Marines and I that where in the normal lethal radius of the grenade. All I had to to is signal the range officer who cleared the line and because of S.O.P. Explosive Ordnance Disposal was called out to remove the round though there was about as much chance of it going off as a round that wasn't even fired.

Traenor

2012-06-12, 08:15 AM

Purple

2012-06-12, 08:15 AM

If i have an assault rifle in my hands why wouldent i just shoot you in the face with it? it doesent seem like a smart choice to put down my gun and reach for my knife if my gun is already in your face.

Dart

2012-06-12, 08:16 AM

I'm not entirely against realism. And i like some of the touches they've added. But on this topic it is irrelevant. This would break the game, so it really doesn't matter how realistic it is!

Dart

2012-06-12, 08:20 AM

Why would knife kills be overpowered? I havent played PS1, but i just would like to know why. This is not like it is CoD where everybody is doing their own thing, but a game wherein a frontline and supportive gameplay is encouraged. That will make melee a lot weaker. Also, i dont know if infils could cloak perfectly in PS1, but doing that in PS2 will have a lot of tradeoffs.

As you said, you don't know so trust me on this. In an mmofps one hit knife kills would be insanely overpowered!

therandomone

2012-06-12, 08:26 AM

The fact that you like role playing is completely plausible... You seem tied to this idea of realism in FPS games. Disabuse yourself of it, it will hold you back.

If you honestly think that simply making it two hit kills from the front would balance cloakers in this scenario, you're wrong. You've still not countered my only objection to this idea; it will break the game and knife kills would account for way more kills than they ought to. Not to mention, everyone would be a cloaker! If you're trying to invent a new genre FPK, you're on the right track. Otherwise, please let this idea go.

I mean, I did. You just didn't like it, there's a difference. Also, I think it would keep people on their toes a bit more and I don't see much wrong with that. Cloakers are not completely invisible as we've seen in the game play footage, so it would just mean you would need to pay closer attention. And we all like a sense of realism, I think we can at least agree to that, it is just too varying degrees. For instance, the idea of friendly fire is in itself a degree of realism (unless you personally dont like it, in which case you like very little realism). Though if you dont like realism (not saying thats the case,but IF) then why isn't someone like you a fan of COD since it specializes in disregarding realism. I guess some people just dance a little farther on that line then others. I still think a back knife attack has legitimacy for being a 1 hit kill (except on MAXes, of course).

WNxThentar

2012-06-12, 08:32 AM

See below:

I definitely see the legitimacy of some of your points (hence why I didnt think it was necessary to have them just to say, yes I agree) Though you do realize a ballistic vest designed to protect you from bullets might stop a slash (which generally isn't as lethal to begin with) but wont actually do much to stop a thrust or stab. They have specific vests to protect you from knives, which unfortunately in turn, then don't do much to protect you from bullets....its a bit of a trade off. They have began making vests with a combination of both materials to try and lessen the trade off but it become much like the saying goes "a jack of all trades is a master of none"

Umm I was in the Marines from 88-94. The vest I wore wasn't standard issue but even then the standard kevlar flak jacket provided very good knife protection. Combination armour has been around since the early 90s and while a purely bullet proof vest is manufactured to prevent punctures from a different profile then knives it isn't like it doesn't provide any protection. Good quality body armour today provide very good protection from both ballistic and stabbing. Many people think OHK with a knife is easy. Yet you'd be surprised to see how many people live after being stabbed a few dozen times.

WNxThentar

2012-06-12, 08:35 AM

Why would knife kills be overpowered? I havent played PS1, but i just would like to know why. This is not like it is CoD where everybody is doing their own thing, but a game wherein a frontline and supportive gameplay is encouraged. That will make melee a lot weaker. Also, i dont know if infils could cloak perfectly in PS1, but doing that in PS2 will have a lot of tradeoffs.

1 hit kills is overpowered. Both in PS1 and PS2 cloakers are more visible if they move fast. Even in PS1 you needed a few hits of a powered knife to kill an armoured opponent.

Sledgecrushr

2012-06-12, 08:37 AM

TOCS

2012-06-12, 08:38 AM

Sledgecrushr

2012-06-12, 08:40 AM

Please make a poll on this.

Anyway, unless it's a backstab it should be 2 hits. I don't like the whole knife lunge thing, but since unequipable knifes are the future of FPS, it needs to be controlled to some degree.

Unequippable knives are current fad in fps games, please brother can we look past this to the future.

Dart

2012-06-12, 08:47 AM

I mean, I did. You just didn't like it, there's a difference. Also, I think it would keep people on their toes a bit more and I don't see much wrong with that. Cloakers are not completely invisible as we've seen in the game play footage, so it would just mean you would need to pay closer attention. And we all like a sense of realism, I think we can at least agree to that, it is just too varying degrees. For instance, the idea of friendly fire is in itself a degree of realism (unless you personally dont like it, in which case you like very little realism). Though if you dont like realism (not saying thats the case,but IF) then why isn't someone like you a fan of COD since it specializes in disregarding realism. I guess some people just dance a little farther on that line then others. I still think a back knife attack has legitimacy for being a 1 hit kill (except on MAXes, of course).

I know you do. And i know gaming forums well enough to know there is nothing i can tell you that will change your mind. You're obviously not stupid and you've thought a lot about this and with every ever post you become more entrenched in your position. HOWEVER i have 9 years experience within the MMOFPS genre. The cloaking mechanism appears to be very similar to the original, the mlle you move the more visible you become and there were similar instagib features (like surge & boomers) in the original.

It is with this knowledge that i assure you, 1 hit knife kills would not be "keeping people on their toes". It'd be overpowered. It is a simple as that and has absolutely nothing to do with realism.

Dart

2012-06-12, 08:51 AM

therandomone

2012-06-12, 08:59 AM

Umm I was in the Marines from 88-94. The vest I wore wasn't standard issue but even then the standard kevlar flak jacket provided very good knife protection. Combination armour has been around since the early 90s and while a purely bullet proof vest is manufactured to prevent punctures from a different profile then knives it isn't like it doesn't provide any protection. Good quality body armour today provide very good protection from both ballistic and stabbing. Many people think OHK with a knife is easy. Yet you'd be surprised to see how many people live after being stabbed a few dozen times.

I'm not saying purely bullet proof vests are like paper. I'm sorry if I gave that impression, as thats not what I was intending, because don't get me wrong they're better than nothing. Those purely designed for bullets help still, they just arent designed to handle a stab/thrust as well. Kevlar is just more meant for bullets aka something blunt, where a knife can split/slip through the fibers hence, as you know, the combination armor has the hardplates to help protect from knife attacks. But in including that it means theres less kevlar woven in because the plates are there and as I would imagine arent trying to weigh you down too hard with that and the other gear you must carry.

I will admit my knowledge of this stuff comes second hand just from my buddies in the military, so I will admit I don't have near the experience you do.

In regards to the knife attacks, that I also understand, which is why I'll admit I was a bit over-zealous with the knife especially with the front. (Is there a "knife-happy" version of "trigger-happy"?). I do think theres still a case for the rear knife attack though, as it is generally unexpected and looking at most of the armor that we can see with the footage most leave the back of the neck unprotected except for certain instances like with the Maxes. The Vanu infiltrators seem like theyre one of the few but even then much of it looks like "soft vest" armor around the back of the neck area with a few small hard plates.

Traenor

2012-06-12, 09:04 AM

On a side note, i really wish guys who'd never played the original PS would trust the veterans around here when it comes to game mechanics. We've been playing PS1 for the best party of a decade now and been pouring over every scrap of information about the sequel for at least two years. Trust us! We've been there and earned the battle scars.

Fine, i am going to trust you and agree that 1-hit kills are overpowered for the sake of discussion. Higby has said that infils will have other gameplay than as snipers, in the assassin area, as backstabbers. How do you think that can be made balanced and strong enough without 1-hit kills? (I am not trying to sound aggresive, just curious)

therandomone

2012-06-12, 09:08 AM

I know you do. And i know gaming forums well enough to know there is nothing i can tell you that will change your mind. You're obviously not stupid and you've thought a lot about this and with every ever post you become more entrenched in your position. HOWEVER i have 9 years experience within the MMOFPS genre. The cloaking mechanism appears to be very similar to the original, the mlle you move the more visible you become and there were similar instagib features (like surge & boomers) in the original.

It is with this knowledge that i assure you, 1 hit knife kills would not be "keeping people on their toes". It'd be overpowered. It is a simple as that and has absolutely nothing to do with realism.
Fair enough, and hell I'll admit you might be right. And if something like this is implemented and it turns out you were right I will personally hunt you down...and eat my words, though I can imagine if that is the case they will not taste good. And I will understand that at that point you have free range to tell me I told you so, and at that point theres nothing much I can do. While I hope it doesn't come to that, if it does you have my word I will take back my remarks/comments.
I guess I feel since you do become more visible as you move with the cloaking mechanism and I was under the pretense it only lasts for a certain short period of time (though I'm guessing it can be certed to last longer) that those mechanisms would help keep it slightly more balanced.

So at this point, can we agree to disagree and that while frustrating at times, it was generally a solid debate?

Canaris

2012-06-12, 09:11 AM

the only thing I'd accpet a 1 hit melee kill from is a max unit to an infantry,

Max vs Max - should be a couple of hits
Max vs Inf - should be 1 hit
Inf vs Inf - should be a couple of hits
Inf vs Max - should make the Max giggle

my 3 fiddy

sylphaen

2012-06-12, 09:15 AM

Some thoughts:
- If knife hits are OSOK right off the bat, no room is left to customize your character to be an assassin.
- I think only cloakers should have OSOK knife customizations: the other classes do not need it.
- I think OSOK knife should be limited: in PS1, it required equipping the knife (sitching weapons took 1 second) and required implant(melee booster)/stamina. In PS2, an energy system could be made required to activate melee booster and simulate cooldowns, i.e. forcing "assassin" roles and preventing "wild rampage".

To force even further choices, self-heal and self-ammoresupply should be tied to that energy system. Further customization options would be linked to that energy mechanic which would define the infiltrator class just like jumpjets define Light Assault, revives define combat medic, armor/firepower define MAX, deployables define engineers and all-around-versatility define HA.

Edit: just to clarify, yes, I am saying that only infils should have powerful melee.

Dart

2012-06-12, 09:28 AM

Fair enough, and hell I'll admit you might be right. And if something like this is implemented and it turns out you were right I will personally hunt you down...and eat my words, though I can imagine if that is the case they will not taste good. And I will understand that at that point you have free range to tell me I told you so, and at that point theres nothing much I can do. While I hope it doesn't come to that, if it does you have my word I will take back my remarks/comments.
I guess I feel since you do become more visible as you move with the cloaking mechanism and I was under the pretense it only lasts for a certain short period of time (though I'm guessing it can be certed to last longer) that those mechanisms would help keep it slightly more balanced.

So at this point, can we agree to disagree and that while frustrating at times, it was generally a solid debate?

I'm not really one for "i told you so". Like almost everyone here i really just want to see PS2 become fun and successful. This is a good community you're joining. By and large it's a mature and knowledgeable one.

And yeah, I'm always up for a good debate.

Kilmoran

2012-06-12, 10:12 AM

Melee Booster Cert. Depending on how that works.. i'd say that seems to be where "1 hit kills" would reside. In PS 1, it was the ability to 2 or 3 hit kill, depending on your mode (and possibly mods or bonuses) Other wise it was 3 to 5 hits without melee booster.

Kalbuth

2012-06-12, 10:21 AM

To the people new to Planetside world, brace yourself for what you may well see. We called it "the Zerg".
It's 2 main forces clashing together in 1 area.

It's overcrowded in many parts of the area.
Like, the spawns, or the vehicle bay. People collide together trying to reach a terminal, are in queue, must wait a bit to pass a door, and there rush to the frontline. There is a hell lot of noise, everything moves around you.

In PS1, we had originally an implant that allowed to go faster (called "Surge") and a deployable which was basically a C4, called "Boomer". An invisible infiltrator would surge into ennemy spawn room, plant a boomer while passing, and detonate when outside, killing some players in spawn. He then was taking a route around, to come back, rince and repeat.
You only heard the "woosh woosh" of the active surge, the "tick" of the deploying boomer, and boom. There was too much movement around you to spot someone barely visible. Too much noise around too, until you got killd 4 times and learn it.

I can easily foresee an infiltrator lining up on vehicle bays, invisible, rushing aligned people getting their vehicles, and doing 2 or 3 1shot knife kills in a row, then evading somewhere, replenish energy, rince, repeat. When it's going to be seen as efficient, it's going to be abused. Because it's a 2000 players MMO. This is not really the stealthy assassin gameplay I'd like to see, tbh

Exmortius

2012-06-12, 10:22 AM

i might be for this if it's an infiltrator cloaked getting a knife kill. then 1 hit knife might be reasonable...but honestly it's gonna be tough to get that close with all the firepower that ps has. 2 -3 swings of a knife would be probably more realistic and better. even if you are a cloaked infiltrator you should be able to do that if you are that close before a heavy or light assault sees where you are. i think 2 swing knife kill would be the ideal gives a friendly in the area enough time to react and waste em.

Stew

2012-06-12, 10:27 AM

Unless its a sneaky back stab I dont really see using a knife as a one shot kill. Now if your knife happens to be three feet long then I would say yes getting hit by that thing would certainly ruin your day.

if their is any oneshot kill it must be like BF3 or killzone 3 a animation and if the guy get kill before the excution animation is done he dont get the kill and the (( victime is safe ))

Dart

2012-06-12, 10:30 AM

Stew

2012-06-12, 10:33 AM

Immigrant

2012-06-12, 10:39 AM

No in general, only in case "melee cert maxed out" + "backstab" = instant kill.

Exmortius

2012-06-12, 10:40 AM

sounds like being in a car crash there. ouchy.

Daffan

2012-06-12, 10:53 AM

What about my armor suit? : (

DayOne

2012-06-12, 10:55 AM

No 1-hit kill quickknife, because balance.

Equipable knife that 1-hit kills when you sneak up behind someone and perform a killanimation ala BF3 would be pretty nice, though.

^This. Hell, having cert into into a 1 hit kill with a backstab is even better!

Kriegson

2012-06-12, 11:08 AM

No in general, only in case "melee cert maxed out" + "backstab" = instant kill.
^ this

If you want to one hit stab people, go infil and spec out for melee damage. Imo knives should be relatively useless without shields unless they are "Activated", like in PS1.
For those not in the know, all the knives in PS1 (as I recall) had to be "activated" to do their maximum damage, but upon activation they emitted a noise based on what type they were (Chainblade had chain whirring, Magcutter hummed, Vanu blade whined IIRC).

This would mean quick knife would be low (on shields) or moderate (on armor) damage without activation, while someone who purposely pulls out their blade and activates it could do a lot of damage.
Though anyone nearby who knows of the sound will be warned.

-----------------------------------------

So ultimately, the ideal situation (imo) is an infil or solider pulling out their knife, sneaking up to a target, activating it, stabbing, and then deactivating and running before anyone notices.

Kilmoran

2012-06-12, 11:16 AM

^ this

If you want to one hit stab people, go infil and spec out for melee damage. Imo knives should be relatively useless without shields unless they are "Activated", like in PS1.
For those not in the know, all the knives in PS1 (as I recall) had to be "activated" to do their maximum damage, but upon activation they emitted a noise based on what type they were (Chainblade had chain whirring, Magcutter hummed, Vanu blade whined IIRC).

This would mean quick knife would be low (on shields) or moderate (on armor) damage without activation, while someone who purposely pulls out their blade and activates it could do a lot of damage.
Though anyone nearby who knows of the sound will be warned.

-----------------------------------------

So ultimately, the ideal situation (imo) is an infil or solider pulling out their knife, sneaking up to a target, activating it, stabbing, and then deactivating and running before anyone notices.

Shields sometimes only work against objects that move fast enough for them to react to. This is assuming the shield isn't activated 100% of the time, and is more "reactive" in bursts to what is going on. Thus, bullets are defended against, but a punch to the fast wouldn't be. In PS 1, knives all but ignored armor.

Sledgecrushr

2012-06-12, 11:18 AM

I dont mind knife fighting if my knife is bigger than yours. We could use more melee options.

Kriegson

2012-06-12, 11:23 AM

Shields sometimes only work against objects that move fast enough for them to react to. This is assuming the shield isn't activated 100% of the time, and is more "reactive" in bursts to what is going on. Thus, bullets are defended against, but a punch to the fast wouldn't be. In PS 1, knives all but ignored armor.

The alternative could be true though, considering the shielding system that heavy assaults use (Which slows projectiles to limit the amount of damage they do) would slow a stab to barely a poke with a knife.
Or depending on the shielding system, the knife bay simply slide off if the system is designed around deflection or disintegration than brute force (Re-direct force rather than attempt to stop it outright, or simply incinerate/deconstruct projectiles.)

So really it could go either way, considering we don't know how the shields work. But that said, I would think the blade itself would do good against armor, but unless it is activated, it won't do much against shields.
This would give stabby infils a good role in battle of finishing off foes who are wounded and retreat to regain shields.

waldizzo

2012-06-12, 11:33 AM

The knife should be one of two things.

1. Primary weapon of a cloaker that is heavily certified into stealth
2. Last resort (out of ammo)

I had an entire angry post here but I erased it.

Kilmoran

2012-06-12, 11:35 AM

The alternative could be true though, considering the shielding system that heavy assaults use (Which slows projectiles to limit the amount of damage they do) would slow a stab to barely a poke with a knife.
Or depending on the shielding system, the knife bay simply slide off if the system is designed around deflection or disintegration than brute force (Re-direct force rather than attempt to stop it outright, or simply incinerate/deconstruct projectiles.)

So really it could go either way, considering we don't know how the shields work. But that said, I would think the blade itself would do good against armor, but unless it is activated, it won't do much against shields.
This would give stabby infils a good role in battle of finishing off foes who are wounded and retreat to regain shields.

I'm more suggesting there is a reason for an activated, fully certed knife to be able to cause infantry damage. I'm not at all trying to say there aren't reasons for a knife "not" to do damage. There are far more reasons for it not to than for it to after all. All that is needed for a knife to do no damage, is for them to say "Space Armor... done" and.. that's the end of knifing.

Kilmoran

2012-06-12, 11:39 AM

The knife should be one of two things.

1. Primary weapon of a cloaker that is heavily certified into stealth
2. Last resort (out of ammo)

I had an entire angry post here but I erased it.

150% Agree... yeah... 1 and a half people worth of agreement.

Zekeen

2012-06-12, 11:47 AM

Just no to 1 hit kills, anyone who says otherwise is wanting an FPS, not Planetside, which is way more than that. 1 hit kill for heavy certed, heavily armed knife back stab, equipped, NOT quick-knifed.

NoKitty

2012-06-13, 05:56 AM

I am planning of rolling infil for the most part. I don't really want to see OHK, even when specced out for it. I would like to see knives able to cause a fair amount of damage though, when specced for it. If the sidearm is as powerful as it was during the E3 streams, it should be more than enough to finish off a wounded victim. I would also assume that the sidearms will be silence-able, which will help the assassin type infil maintain his cover. Even when he gets kill like this though, he still has to deal with that person's now-on-high-alert teammates.

A few random thoughts:

it would be interesting to see hitboxing with the knife beyond front/back. things like headshots and other soft spots

i would like to see deep specializations into melee, like giving up the primary slot (shotgun presumably) and being limited to only knife and sidearm, while being given very high melee damage

also realize that if there are OHKs from backstabbing, it probably took that infil a lot of time and patience to get that kill, and seems like a fair payoff, but remember that the time it took to kill that victim is likely greater than the time it will take for them to respawn and get back in the action, based on the respawn times we have seen.

one last thought: for those of you arguing about the realism of knives, please remember that this is a video game. if the knife is made out of the same or similar material as the armor that is worn, there is no reason to think that the knife would do ANY damage to ANY of the classes, barring infils and aiming for exposed areas. along that logic, the knife would not do any damage at all to HAs and MAXs. it is the future, and for all we know, knives could have some kind of energy discharge on use, like some kind of weak light-saber.

Zenben

2012-06-13, 06:21 AM

No 1-hit kill quickknife, because balance.

Equipable knife that 1-hit kills when you sneak up behind someone and perform a killanimation ala BF3 would be pretty nice, though.

Skyrim sneak attack animations muuuuuuuuch cooler than BF3's :cool:

OT: I'm against 1 hit kill quick knife, but for an equippable knife from behind, I'm OK with it.

Mastachief

2012-06-13, 06:26 AM

Zenben

2012-06-13, 06:38 AM

What a completely retarded idea.

SHIELDS

This is the future, armour tech will stop any pointy object let alone the fact there are energy shields covering your entire body.

Kindly fuck off with you shitty BF3/COD Knife kills.

Every time a see a crappy thread like this I fear for Planetside just incase the developers ever take one for them seriously.

No 1 hit knife kills
No knife cutscene animations
No Quick knife

You sound pleasant. Anyhow, as far as the shields argument, I've always thought of shields as behaving much like oobleck, which is a mixture of cornstarch and water that creates a non-newtonian fluid.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/f2XQ97XHjVw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

When a bullet hits a shield, it hits with huge force, so the shield reacts and deflects the bullet. If you "sneak" a knife inside the shield, it won't react at all and you can stab someone in the back. Think about it, if shields came from your armor and absolutely nothing could get through it, how would you hold your gun?

Xyntech

2012-06-13, 06:47 AM

What a completely retarded idea.

SHIELDS

This is the future, armour tech will stop any pointy object let alone the fact there are energy shields covering your entire body.

Clearly you aren't a fan of Dune.

Dart

2012-06-13, 06:51 AM

Zenben

2012-06-13, 06:55 AM

Are you guys STILL talking about this?

No. Just no. It would unbalance the game. 2 hit kills, if you're a cloaker and you're fully specd should be the maximum. By that i mean it should do about 70% health damage, so would probably kill a wounded player.

Disagree. A fully knife-spec'd cloaker, assuming equippable knife, should be able to OSK anyone (save MAX) from behind. If they manage to sneak up to melee range behind you, considering cloak is no longer unlimited, they deserve it.

Dart

2012-06-13, 06:59 AM

Disagree. A fully knife-spec'd cloaker, assuming equippable knife, should be able to OSK anyone (save MAX) from behind. If they manage to sneak up to melee range behind you, considering cloak is no longer unlimited, they deserve it.

You seem to have forgotten this is PLANETSIDE! There would be cloakers waiting as people ran out of spawn rooms, or slaughtering groups of people waiting at vehicle pads. These is no skill on that and it would get exploited to death. For the last time just no.

Zenben

2012-06-13, 07:02 AM

You seem to have forgotten this is PLANETSIDE! There would be cloakers waiting as people ran out of spawn rooms, or slaughtering groups of people waiting at vehicle pads. These is no skill on that and it would get exploited to death. For the last time just no.

It's called situational awareness. Cloakers will probably have next to no armor. They're going to be glass cannons, and easily taken out if you're paying attention.

Nasher

2012-06-13, 07:04 AM

I'm assuming knives still do no damage to MAXes? :)

EVILoHOMER

2012-06-13, 07:06 AM

Dart

2012-06-13, 07:10 AM

It's called situational awareness. Cloakers will probably have next to no armor. They're going to be glass cannons, and easily taken out if you're paying attention.

Lol i know ALL about situational awareness. I'm a 9 year vet. I also know how divided that focus becomes in an MMOFPS where bombs are going off, nades are being thrown, you're checking 3 maps at once, looking at your K/D and talking to your Outfit on Mumble. I realise i won't change your mind, the more i try to reason with you the more cemented your opinion becomes, but if you are advocating this you either a) are a cloaker looking to break this shooter by stabbing people or b) never played the original and have no idea of the impact thus would have when applied to an MMO.

The core issue here seems to me to be a misunderstanding. Cloakers are not mass killers. You want to top the kill boards? Play Heavy Assault. The fact that you used the word cloaker and cannon in the same sentence suggests you're trying to make them something they're not.

Biscuit

2012-06-13, 07:12 AM

Why do we even have knives? Never seen people in the Army going around knifing the enemy and besides they wouldn't even break the armour of the soldiers in Planetside 2 so it makes no sense.

Now Knives are going to be in there cause people want them for lols but they should be selectable and no quick knife. Counter Strike got the balance perfectly to where they're the last resort once you're out of ammo or for making someone look stupid by sneaking up on them.

Quick Knives in COD just means run round with a knife in close quarters because it's more effective.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x241/AKURTZ42793/1285814193827.gif

LMAO...

i vote no, and even if it some how made it into the game, it should be met with extreme requirements.

1. maxed out in melee
2. behind the back
3. attacking the head
4. have a equipped knife only, no quick knife

anything less will not do. i dont want to see no B.S. 1 hit kills because i cut your big toe crap. and esspecially that flying quick knife from the video above.

Zenben

2012-06-13, 07:18 AM

Lol i know ALL about situational awareness. I'm a 9 year vet. I also know how dividef that focus becomes in an MMOFPS where bombs see going off, nades are being thrown, you're checking 3 maps at once, looking at your K/D and talking to your Outfit on Mumble. I realise i won't change your mind, the more i try to reason with you the more cemented your opinion becomes, but if you are advocating this you either a) are a cloaker looking to break this shooter by stabbing people or b) never played the original and have no idea of the impact thus would have when applied to an MMO.

The core issue here seems to me to be a misunderstanding. Cloakers are not mass killers. You want to top the kill boards? Play Heavy Assault. The fact that you used the word cloaker and cannon in the same sentence suggests you're trying to make then something they're not.

Neither of your points are accurate. I a) was primarily a pilot, and b) played the game since the day after it was released in 2003. You are, however, correct in your deduction that you probably won't change my opinion. I like to think of a cloaker (in terms of PS2, not the original) as able to be spec'd to be a gadgetier, sniper, or assassin. I think all 3 would be fun, and I don't think any of them would be as game-breaking as you seem to think they would, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Also, to your last sentence, the term "glass cannon" does not necessarily mean something that blows shit up, though I do expect a cloaker to be able to do so with explosives. In this instance, glass cannon just refers to something that does a lot of damage but is extremely fragile.

Dart

2012-06-13, 07:30 AM

Also, to your last sentence, the term "glass cannon" does not necessarily mean something that blows shit up, though I do expect a cloaker to be able to do so with explosives. In this instance, glass cannon just refers to something that does a lot of damage but is extremely fragile.

Wow... Way to miss the point! A cannon is artillery. Artillery is not stealthy. Artillery is not precise. An assassin is NEVER a cannon. You are trying to make a cloaker something it should not be. But as you have admitted, no amount of logic will change your perception. Hopefully others will read this exchange and think "do we really want invisible 'cannons' running around the battlefield 1-hit killing anything that isn't looking for them with darklight (or whatever it's equivalent will be)?"

Zenben

2012-06-13, 07:33 AM

Wow... Way to miss the point! A cannon is artillery. Artillery is not stealthy. Artillery is not precise. An assassin is NEVER a cannon. You are trying to make a cloaker something it should not be. But as you have admitted, no amount of logic will change your perception. Hopefully others will read this exchange and think "do we really want invisible 'cannons' running around the battlefield 1-hit killing anything that isn't looking for them with darklight (or whatever it's equivalent will be)?"

Clearly the term glass cannon is not a phrase you have encountered before. As I said, it does not literally mean a piece of artillery, it's a figure of speech. Who the fuck would make a cannon out of glass? By the way, are you aware they've made infiltrators into snipers in PS2? One might think of a sniper as a type of artillery, how do you feel about that?

Mastachief

2012-06-13, 07:47 AM

Theres another free to play fps on the market that can serve to further hammer home the NO to one hit kill knives........

Team fortress 2

go watch the spy back stabs, now imagine instead of 2 or 3 spys there are literally 100's of them all going "LOLZ look at me imma invisible 1 shot killing machine"

The situation awareness crap is just that crap, you can be one of the best fps players in the world regarding situational awareness and you would still die to this faggotry. This is an MMO the variables to track are infinitely more numerous than your average FPSflavour52.

I can only assume these VETs advocating these concepts are the same losers we were fighting last night who despite outnumbering us 10 to 1 still couldn't take a biolab even sending a 20 man MAX crash and numerous gal drops.

Cloakers (now infiltrators) should be weak oh so very weak and not one man killing machines. You have a cloak and can run fast it would be really easy to backstab 5 people before you die. You already have the sniper rifle now shutup and be happy stop try to unbalance what will already be a balance nightmare with your lame mechanics that have no place in the planetside world.

Zenben

2012-06-13, 07:53 AM

Mastachief

2012-06-13, 07:57 AM

At least the other guy was able to debate reasonably without sounding like a douche. As soon as I see something like "faggotry" you lose me, so I guess you win. Grats?

I accept your lack of considered response as realisation of the stupidity of you posts.

Thanks :D

By the way my level douchery is proportionate to the stupidity of the threads I respond to.

Zenben

2012-06-13, 08:02 AM

I accept your lack of considered response as realisation of the stupidity of you posts.

Thanks :D

By the way my level douchery is proportionate to the stupidity of the threads I respond to.

So because my opinion is different from yours, it's stupid? Got it, you're definitely worth talking to :rolleyes: OH LOOK an ignore button!

Dart

2012-06-13, 08:05 AM

Clearly the term glass cannon is not a phrase you have encountered before. As I said, it does not literally mean a piece of artillery, it's a figure of speech. Who the fuck would make a cannon out of glass? By the way, are you aware they've made infiltrators into snipers in PS2? One might think of a sniper as a type of artillery, how do you feel about that?

The issue is not my understanding of the term "glass cannon" Zenben, but your use of it. As it happens I am perfectly familiar with the term and I use it (correctly) when it is appropriate. My point, which you apparently missed, is that the term itself - which is intended to imply a particularly powerful, fragile weapon - is an inappropriate description for a cloaker. Cloaking is about stealth, subtlety and subterfuge. As I have said, there is very little stealthy about running up to a group of players waiting to pull vehicles and hacking them all to death with a 1 hit kill weapon.

Moreover your figure of speech, in my opinion, belies your misconception of this issue. That is why I drew your attention to it. Your interpretation of the class is, in my opinion, wholly unsuitable and you would do well to ask a REAL cloaker - someone like Figgy or Malign about the nuances of the class because I assure you, it is not about killing OR cannons (glass or otherwise).

Regarding Snipers - I am glad they are part of the Infiltrator class - and if an Infil is keen to kill people, I would imagine that is the best route for them to go.

Zenben

2012-06-13, 08:12 AM

The issue is not my understanding of the term "glass cannon" Zenben, but your use of it. As it happens I am perfectly familiar with the term and I use it (correctly) when it is appropriate. My point, which you apparently missed, is that the term itself - which is intended to imply a particularly powerful, fragile weapon - is an inappropriate description for a cloaker. Cloaking is about stealth, subtlety and subterfuge. As I have said, there is very little stealthy about running up to a group of players waiting to pull vehicles and hacking them all to death with a 1 hit kill weapon.

Moreover your figure of speech, in my opinion, belies your misconception of this issue. That is why I drew your attention to it. Your interpretation of the class is, in my opinion, wholly unsuitable and you would do well to ask a REAL cloaker - someone like Figgy or Malign about the nuances of the class because I assure you, it is not about killing OR cannons (glass or otherwise).

Regarding Snipers - I am glad they are part of the Infiltrator class - and if an Infil is keen to kill people, I would imagine that is the best route for them to go.

Admittedly, I'm not a very experienced cloaker. Maybe I'm just too hung up on the idea of a badass ninja type bringing a knife to a gun fight. I suppose as long as explosives are still an option, I'll be content with a weaker knife, though I will always oppose a quick knife.

Dart

2012-06-13, 08:22 AM

I will always oppose a quick knife.

Something we firmly agree on.

And cloakers using explosives is cool too (so long as they are primarily tactical, rather than intended for killing).

My point here is simple - why is a knife attack which does say 70% damage by a class which is NOT designed for killing insufficient? Or put another way, why should a support/tactical class (ie. non-combat specific class) have the most powerful weapon in the game? I'd compare the 1 knife hit kill Cloakers to a Medic asking for a 1 hit kill med app or the Engy asking for a 1 hit kill wrench! It simply doesn't make sense...

If you want to be rambo, go Heavy Assault or MAX. If you want to heal people, go Medic. If you want to surgically kill things, go Sniper. If you want to be tactically sneaky (delivering a sting occasionally in the process of completing a mission) that is what cloaking is for. We don't want to see Cloakers running around spec'd for "max damage" thinking they're playing COD! The more individual we keep the classes - ie. the less homogenization among them - the more playstyles we will encourage and the more enjoyment will be had by all! In an MMO diversity is always a good thing.

Zenben

2012-06-13, 08:25 AM

If you want to be rambo, go Heavy Assault or MAX. If you want to heal people, go Medic. If you want to surgically kill things, go Sniper. If you want to be tactically sneaky (delivering a sting occasionally in the process of completing a mission) that is what cloaking is for.

And if you want to hack a Gal (AMS) or strategically placed Sunderer (presumably Lodestar), play a clo... oh wait, no hacking vehicles :( Seems like cloakers were robbed of something that was so much fun when they announced the removal of vehicle hacking.

Dart

2012-06-13, 08:30 AM

And if you want to hack a Gal (AMS) or strategically placed Sunderer (presumably Lodestar), play a clo... oh wait, no hacking vehicles :( Seems like cloakers were robbed of something that was so much fun when they announced the removal of vehicle hacking.

Again, I agree with that and during beta I certainly hope we will discover more roles for a Cloaker to perform... And if we don't I hope there is a lot of community pressure for the Devs to introduce some. Some of the most impressive Cloakers I ever saw could infiltrate a base, on their own, and flip the hack without killing a single person. From the stream at E3, that would not seem possible any longer (although obviously I'm hoping there is a lot more we don't know, so I'm not jumping to any conclusions).

Btw I added a little to my previous post - have a read of it. Hopefully it'll better illustrate my feelings on class diversity.

Sledgecrushr

2012-06-13, 08:43 AM

Monkey

2012-06-13, 08:47 AM

Just no... I hate the whole sprinting and instant knife kill thing in CoD, so lame. Just have the knife as equipable, but make it faster to draw out than PS1, it took an age in that game...

Dart

2012-06-13, 09:06 AM

The issue I have with the knife is that I dont think it should do diddly squat against anyone with any kind of armor no matter how specced you are. Just look at the HA and tell me youre going to do serious damage to that guy with a knife. This whole conversation is taking the knife into fantasyland. You just cant get the leverage to push the knife through shields and advanced plate armor.

Realism... Computer games... Realism... Computer games... Realism... Computer games....

Nope, sorry. I just don't see the connection here. Remember you're playing a game where when you die, you don't. You run around carrying all sorts of weapons you can't see on your body and you can create vehicles/equipment out of thin air. Please suspend your disbelief at the door!

PredatorFour

2012-06-13, 09:14 AM

I loved the knife in PS i got upto titanium with my infil. Id like to see the knife dynamics remain the same on a whole. However id like to be able to spec more into my knife so it could make it a one hit kill. Before some of you elitests fall off your high horse and try and slag me off for saying that here`s some points.

- In a game where we already have OSK (headshots) it aint that bad
- If i certed a knife buff it would sacrifice other areas as we all know
- The overall pops are larger than PS so could be more difficult to sneak around a populated base /Darklight
-TTK is considerably faster in PS 2, if you see me i`ll be dead in milliseconds.
- The new PS is only planetside in name, you cant compare your PS 1 experiences with the new game as it is nearly a different game altogether.

So basically im in favour of keeping knife the same as it was in PS 1 for everyone. But you can spec up to be a badass with the knife and slaughter people with bigger guns/armour than you.

Mastachief

2012-06-13, 09:25 AM

NoKitty

2012-06-13, 01:05 PM

Guys, we can be a better community than this, we don't have to devolve the discussion to poo-flinging and bitterness against eachother.

that said, i will be playing a lot of non-sniping infil, i dont expect to rack up a lot of kills, but i would like to help my team out by occasionally making very important and impactful kills on high priority targets. i dont feel the need to have an invisible class that can go on killing sprees.

Ratstomper

2012-06-13, 01:30 PM

I don't have any issue with 1-hit kill backstabs. Snipers can spec to kill in one shot from a mile away. In my mind, considering how much faster gameplay is going to be in PS2, if an infiltrator is able to get up behind you, he deserves the kill.

As with anything, it would require a keen eye and a steady hand for tweaking it to fit in with everything else.

Wahooo

2012-06-13, 02:00 PM

Quick knifing is part of what turned me off in MW/COD type crap.

Here is a video showing better representation of using a tactical combat knife and IMO an appropriate to PS2 TTK of a melee weapon:

Saving Private Ryan (6/7) Movie CLIP - Upham Fails Mellish (1998) HD - YouTube

Here is an example of a typical "Realistic Modern Shooter" oh look unaware target a bit away... best way to kill? Don't shoot, run up and OHK knife... of course that is quicker and more skill-full:

CoD MW2 Knife Multi-kill Montage | BreeZeRSouL - YouTube

Sirisian

2012-06-13, 02:29 PM

We had a thread on knives already. (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?p=647402#post647402)

The general consensus was a 4 hit quick button knife with post-swipe holstering delay with a 4 hit equipped knife with a 3 hit secondary stab. This was reasonably believed to balance cloaker gameplay while allowing it to be upgraded via certs and to be a reasonable finishing move in CQC.

You'll also see everyone's opinion in that thread about how knifing has been implemented in all other FPS games and some problems and shortfalls of their systems and games that implemented it well. People also brought up the concept of realism versus gameplay so you don't have to reiterate over it again. Brings up the pros and cons of such decisions to the core gameplay. At the end of the thread is a short summary of everyone's ideas. Also it includes the realism aspect that a few people have been asking for that is missing in most knife games. That is quick time event "struggles" via a simple parrying system with simultaneous knifing attacks by players.

Dart

2012-06-13, 02:33 PM

Mr DeCastellac

2012-06-13, 02:37 PM

Ah, I see you're a Call of Duty player.

Sirisian

2012-06-13, 02:42 PM

Erm... Wrong. The general (and overwhelming) consensus in that thread is NO quick button knife. Look at the poll....
The biased one that asked if people wanted a one-hit quick knife? Most people don't want a one-hit quick knife. Read the actual discussion and you'll see that most people want a quick button knife that is balanced. This is the general problem with polls on this forum. People can't read the results since they fail to read the threads.

Zolan

2012-06-13, 02:43 PM

>one hit kill knife
>Planetside

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQQIBT8EqVrjFiT25iKravwLNq0ZrXw3 vnz-SJSkj_teHQmAd5wqOjI9NPT6g

super pretendo

2012-06-13, 02:43 PM

Why the hell would you you feel a sense of achievement if knives are auto 1 hit kills? That makes no sense. If it was a knife like in counterstrike, maybe.

Sifer2

2012-06-13, 03:22 PM

One hit kill quick knife is basically just asking for an "easy button" in close range combat. It doesn't belong in any shooter IMO. And makes close range specialization weapons like a Shotgun almost entirely pointless. I remember often trying to use a Shotgun in Battlefield only to have some idiot come sprinting around the corner with his knife. I shoot him in the chest but it doesn't quite kill him. He slashes me once, and I die. It was ****ing ridiculous, and this hard on modern FPS devs have for knives makes me face palm.

An assassination with the knife from behind that takes several seconds I can deal with. Provided there is a delay before it activates to prevent laggy instant kill facestabes like TF2.

Dart

2012-06-13, 03:32 PM

The biased one that asked if people wanted a one-hit quick knife? Most people don't want a one-hit quick knife. Read the actual discussion and you'll see that most people want a quick button knife that is balanced. This is the general problem with polls on this forum. People can't read the results since they fail to read the threads.

Read the first few pages then come back to me. I do not want to see quick knives under any circumstances (ie. one hit kill or 12 hit kill) and I think a lot of people agree with me. I'd far rather see (just) the equip knife which allows you to specialize and customize it. Quick knives are a lazy concession to COD/MW players which does not fit in PlanetSide in my (and a lot of other people's) opinion.

Sledgecrushr

2012-06-13, 03:38 PM

Kilmoran

2012-06-13, 03:40 PM

By counter then i want to be able to cert a Back plate of armour that nullify s your one hit kill knife.

As long as you sacrifice what ever else can be equipped, certainly.

Sledgecrushr

2012-06-13, 03:47 PM

Quick knives are dumb, it was a bad idea to begin with. I hope the devs can come up with something else rather than blindly following bad gameplay decisions.

Trolltaxi

2012-06-13, 03:54 PM

Is it possible to add a code to PSU that redirects everyone into an existing quick-knife thread if they start a new topic and "knife" and "quick" is in the first 3 lines? Would be a great addition.

Banning them would probably be too harsh...

Ratstomper

2012-06-13, 03:56 PM

I wouldn't mind seeing the quick knife go as well. Make it a cert line and an equippable weapon.

I STILL wouldn't mind seeing one-hit knife kills under the assumption that that is something that has to be certed and used in the correct circumstance (backstab, not a quick knife, etc.), and simply acting as a moderate form of damage in other circumstances.

therandomone

2012-06-13, 04:36 PM

Alright, so I'm gone for a little bit and this is what happens. I guess it is time to jump back into the fray. Here seem to be a couple of the common arguments:

Argument 1: The SHIELDS/Space Armor/Combination of both
I understand where people are coming from on this. They follow what they believe to be a logical progression in their reasoning which is this: We have armor now that helps defend against knife attacks so therefore I imagine you believe in the future it would just be stronger/more effective. Honestly I cant fault you for that,like I said its a logical progression of reasoning, except for one key component: you arent looking at the bigger picture. The bigger picture being that if we have technologically advanced armor, why wouldnt the knives be more technologically advanced as well? Its only logical that if the armor has advanced the knives have as well. I love this argument because people try and say "sci-fi....done" but see that works for both sides. So, when you try and play that "what-if" card for why it doesnt w[ork, the other side can then play the "what-if" card and explain why it does. Therefore, this arguments holds as much water as strainer.

Argument 2: This doesn't fit planetside. If you want to play like that then play [insert game they dont like here]
This argument, at first glance, seems to hold more water. I mean, who are some of us to argue with these PS vets (Please dont misread this, the fact that you played the first one both makes me jealous and makes me have respect for you for helping keep that game alive and consequently giving developers the drive to create a second one), they played the first one and we didnt, which is why they and others feel it has strength. Unfortunately, it really doesnt. Why? Simple answer: Things change. Like how theres now the LA class with jet-packs and Maxes have become more equivalent to each other between factions. Those are just two noticeable changes,but people aren't up in arms about that. That leads me to conclude its not that it doesn't fit planetside, but that it doesnt fit you. Now of course I know someone will come back and say "Im part of the community, and its developers should listen to the community" Which I agree with, but I, like others, are also part of the community, which means they should listen to us as well.

In conclusion I feel some people have proposed a solid compromise. The compromise being that A) No quick knife, it must be equipable only and B) that it can be certed up to a one hit kill from behind.

Wahooo

2012-06-13, 04:38 PM

This is the general problem with polls on this forum. People can't read the results since they fail to read the threads.

LOL... it isn't an issue with the Poll system, it is the things you like are bad ideas. Reading more support for a bad idea won't make it a good idea.

Quick knives = bad
OHK quick knives = MOAR bad

The poll says most PS supporters agree with the above statement.
See the poll works.

Sirisian

2012-06-13, 04:38 PM

Read the first few pages then come back to me. I do not want to see quick knives under any circumstances (ie. one hit kill or 12 hit kill) and I think a lot of people agree with me. I'd far rather see (just) the equip knife which allows you to specialize and customize it. Quick knives are a lazy concession to COD/MW players which does not fit in PlanetSide in my (and a lot of other people's) opinion.
If you had read the thread you would have gotten this breakdown which is posted at the end of the thread. When taking an objective viewpoint in a debate try not to read only the posts that agree with your viewpoint. I know it's easy to do, but it makes you sound ignorant. Especially if you go "oh the first posts agree with me" and fail to realize that after that point a discussion begins where people start talking more in depth.

No quick knife (21), said "No", but did not explain if they wanted equipped knife only or just didn't want a one-hit knife button
Equipped knife only (37) Explicitly said they wanted equipped knife only. (PS1 style normally).
No one-hit quick knife (47) Explicitly said they wanted a knife button as long as it didn't one-hit
Other (16) Either didn't specify or went on a tangent about backstabs and other mechanisms related to knifing

Quick knives = bad
OHK quick knives = MOAR bad

The poll says most PS supporters agree with the above statement.
The poll lacks those options. I think you're reading into it with a bias. Realize that most players don't want a modern implementation of the quick knife, myself included, so they voted no to having a quick knife with a poor implementation.

Dart

2012-06-13, 04:42 PM

When taking an objective viewpoint in a debate try not to read only the posts that agree with your viewpoint. I know it's easy to do, but it makes you sound ignorant..

:lol: Irony....

Traak

2012-06-13, 04:47 PM

therandomone

2012-06-13, 04:53 PM

:lol: Irony....

I understand where you're going with this,but in calling him out you are calling myself, yourself, and everyone else out in an argument as well. Objectivity is generally saved for those without a viewpoint in any given argument, which as you can imagine is a very small window of people. We all have our sides, but only some can just be backed by logic and therefore the correct one. So before you call him out for that, take a look at your own arguments and try and claim objectivity. Now that would be ironic.

Dart

2012-06-13, 05:16 PM

I understand where you're going with this,but in calling him out you are calling myself, yourself, and everyone else out in an argument as well. Objectivity is generally saved for those without a viewpoint in any given argument, which as you can imagine is a very small window of people. We all have our sides, but only some can just be backed by logic and therefore the correct one. So before you call him out for that, take a look at your own arguments and try and claim objectivity. Now that would be ironic.

For the record, his condescending post was the first to "call someone out". And i don't need to justify my objectivity. From the majority of every thread I've seen, i represent the popular opinion. Anyone who disagrees with that has not only lost any objectivity but also their reading comprehension.

The community is so united in rejecting this mechanism that the defenders of quick knives are looking increasingly out of touch.

Verruna

2012-06-13, 05:19 PM

Ratstomper

2012-06-13, 05:23 PM

Personally i thought PS1's knife kills were balanced - with a melee implant it took two stabs to kill a rexo, which gave the rexo a second or less in which to turn around and shoot the cloaker, while attempting to move hoping to get out of range of the second stab.

I'm thinking one hit knife kills can't really be balanced, even with tradeoffs tbh. On the other hand insta kill stabbing people as a cloaker would be loads of fun - but would feel kinda gimmicky given the ease of doing it. Granted i don't know all the infil cloak fit options though..

The issue I see with it is that infiltrators could cloak indefinately in PS1 and moving undetected was a lot easier. With the shorter TTKs and more frantic action in PS2, it will be a lot harder to get close to someone. In my mind, if a cloaked (or even non-infiltrator) has spent some of his hard earned cert points in it and can sneak up behind you, he deserves the kill.

I think it would have to be non-quickknife for it to work well, though.

IceJudge

2012-06-13, 05:29 PM

I think battlefield 3 did a great job with the knife, but its still unreliable in the sense you kind of roll the dice at times just hoping it'll even function correctly. However at the same time I personally wouldn't mind a Call of duty system since planetside 2 is going to be faster paced than PS1.

Zolan

2012-06-13, 05:34 PM

Why don't you guys just wrap up all of these knife threads into one single thread with a poll asking to pick one of the following:

Quick-knife or Equip-knife.

therandomone

2012-06-13, 05:36 PM

For the record, his condescending post was the first to "call someone out". And i don't need to justify my objectivity. From the majority of every thread I've seen, i represent the popular opinion. Anyone who disagrees with that has not only lost any objectivity but also their reading comprehension.

The community is so united in rejecting this mechanism that the defenders of quick knives are looking increasingly out of touch.

No offense but you claim to have read the thread yet you are trying to straw man an argument that doesn't exist. The only part of that last sentence thats right is that the community doesnt like the quick knifing mechanism. Thats why were arent arguing for or against that. If you ACTUALLY (key word) read the thread you'd realize its about the lethality of the knife. So, please re-read the thread and then try and post something relevant to the thread.

For shits and giggles heres more food for thought: popular doesnt always equal right. In this specific case though we, like everyone else agree quick knifing shouldnt happen so I guess we luck out.

Also, as soon as you say you don't need any objectivity you lose any credibility in a logical argument. Though since you dont like logic I can use internet speak and break it down simply with the phrase "FAIL!" (Wow, typing that hurts my soul a bit)

Dart

2012-06-13, 05:53 PM

I've already responded to the 1 hit kill proposal. I don't have time to repeat myself, so feel free to go back and read my posts. Apparently I'd be wasting my time if i were to elaborate on why 1 hit kills would be so damaging to PS2 so I'll leave you to your puerile memes.

Sirisian

2012-06-13, 06:09 PM

Why don't you guys just wrap up all of these knife threads into one single thread with a poll asking to pick one of the following:

Quick-knife or Equip-knife.
Because some of us want both (this was discussed in detail in the other threads). It's why polls like this fail so hard. They fixate on an implementation that one person wants treating either implementation as exclusive. To make a poll on this subject that includes all the possible implementations people want would be extremely complex.

Personally if I'm shooting someone in a hallway and they're less than 30% health I like the idea of a finishing swipe with my knife via a quick button. If I'm sneaking up behind someone sniping I'd rather equip it and turn on stab mode and go for a 3 hit kill. (Assuming I don't have a cert).

Folly

2012-06-13, 06:21 PM

I want to see charged 1-hit kills. Sneak up behind someone, hold the knife button down for 2 seconds while your avatar draws his knife back and lines it up to strike the vital organs, then let go of the button and take down your opponent.
Attacking without charging first does less damage, attacking while moving also reduces damage.

Hitbox effects could also be really fun with knives. Slash the eyes to impair an opponents vision, the throat to cause bleeding damage over time, the hand to impair accuracy, stab a foot to slow them down...

Wahooo

2012-06-13, 06:21 PM

It's why polls like this fail so hard. They fixate on an implementation that one person wants treating either implementation as exclusive. To make a poll on this subject that includes all the possible implementations people want would be extremely complex.

Or you can accept that a poll that said,
Quick hit button yes/no?

answer? = no

And be done.

And even before you start, I have a whole bag of Shhh with your name on it.

shhh (austin powers) - YouTube

Sirisian

2012-06-13, 06:53 PM

Or you can accept that a poll that said,
Quick hit button yes/no?

answer? = no

And be done.
What does quick hit button mean to you? Chances are to a Halo player it means you want a quick weapon melee. To a COD or BF3 player it means you want a quick knife. To Planetside veterans they might read that as "he wants to get rid of an equippable knife and replace the system I want". To all the groups they have their own damage in mind for such a system and are afraid to say yes in case you're not thinking what they are thinking. Does that make sense?

So really the only way to handle this is with a discussion. Unless someone takes the time to categorize every possible implementation and to allow it to be polled.

Notice Folly's post about an implementation. It really shows how complex a possible system can be.
I want to see charged 1-hit kills. Sneak up behind someone, hold the knife button down for 2 seconds while your avatar draws his knife back and lines it up to strike the vital organs, then let go of the button and take down your opponent.
Attacking without charging first does less damage, attacking while moving also reduces damage.

Hitbox effects could also be really fun with knives. Slash the eyes to impair an opponents vision, the throat to cause bleeding damage over time, the hand to impair accuracy, stab a foot to slow them down...
I'd enjoy that probably for the equipped knife. For quick knife I'd still prefer holding the button transition to a throwing knife after a second at in this implementation at the bottom (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=647402&postcount=245). :)

captainkapautz

2012-06-13, 06:58 PM

As posted in another thread:

Just steal BF3s knife, that works pretty damn good.

GreatMazinkaise

2012-06-13, 07:01 PM

Quick one hit kill knives? Once again SOE dissapoints trying to cater to the BF/COD kiddies while ignoring their veterans. *sigh*

We actually don't know how much damage those quick knives do... there were no melee kills in the E3 footage, just a bunch of guys accidentally swinging them instead of doing something else.

Since Melee Booster is a cloaker certification I would assume that the damage can be increased or something similar.

I do agree that the old style of knives is preferable.

Wahooo

2012-06-13, 07:02 PM

To me a quick knife/melee button means, that while having a weapon equipped hitting a specific melee button quickly performs a melee action.

I vote no.

but...

NO

what if...

NO

How about...

NO

In some cases...

NO

But it would be cool if...

NO

Something I don't like in real life is the inability to answer a yes/no question with either a yes or no. Then go on to blame the question.

Sirisian

2012-06-13, 08:06 PM

To me a quick knife/melee button means, that while having a weapon equipped hitting a specific melee button quickly performs a melee action.

I vote no.
Thanks for proving my point. You have a specific idea of what a quick button means to you and have read and thought about the gameplay repercussions in even the best implementation and decided it would not be a useful feature to have a quick button melee. There are people however that don't do that and when forced to explain themselves will simply say "well I just got done playing BF3 and I didn't like how I got one-hit with them". It's why I usually focus on creating discussions on complex decisions like this.

(I like how you didn't include any complaints. Would have preferred if you actually listed out all the reasons you've read and the problems you foresaw in them that would make you say "no").

captainkapautz

2012-06-13, 08:11 PM

"well I just got done playing CoD and I didn't like how I got one-hit with them"

FTFY

Sirisian

2012-06-13, 08:24 PM

FTFY
Umm, unless they changed it you could just run around in beta and knife people. I did it a few times:
Battlefield 3 Knife Montage - YouTube
Same thing in BFBC2. Honestly they're good examples of why people don't want one-hit knives.

captainkapautz

2012-06-13, 08:35 PM

Umm, unless they changed it you could just run around in beta and knife people. I did it a few times:
Battlefield 3 Knife Montage - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb8ghy5lnIs)
Same thing in BFBC2. Honestly they're good examples of why people don't want one-hit knives.

Are you intentionally not mentioning that you have to equip the knife for the killmove?

You video also shows why it works, because when he doesn't get the killmove it takes at least 2-3 swipes to kill someone.

P.S.: BF3 and BFBC2 are way different since BFBC2 HAS a 1hit-kill knife.

Werefox

2012-06-13, 09:02 PM

Zolan

2012-06-13, 09:07 PM

Because some of us want both (this was discussed in detail in the other threads). It's why polls like this fail so hard. They fixate on an implementation that one person wants treating either implementation as exclusive. To make a poll on this subject that includes all the possible implementations people want would be extremely complex.

Personally if I'm shooting someone in a hallway and they're less than 30% health I like the idea of a finishing swipe with my knife via a quick button. If I'm sneaking up behind someone sniping I'd rather equip it and turn on stab mode and go for a 3 hit kill. (Assuming I don't have a cert).

What's the point of having an equip-able knife when you have a quick-knife?

I think it's pretty self-explanatory why no one would put that option in a poll...

Ratstomper

2012-06-13, 09:56 PM

I'm personally against any man portable weapons in FPS's being 1 hit kills - mainly because these weapons disproportionately reward skill versus other weapons. For instance, a weapon that takes 2 shots to kill someone requires the same accuracy that a 1 shot weapon does, but you need to get it twice. And while 1 shot is fun for the attacker, it can be rage inducing for the recipient, and I would much rather everyone have fun.

I would be happy with a melee attack (pistol whip, rifle butt hit, whatever) as a "quick attack" that does a short 1 - 2 second stun/disorient (rather than damage) to give the attacker time to either rip out their knife/pistol or to reload. Knives should do similar damage to a pistol shot, in my opinion.

You aren't taking into consideration that most weapons that can;t do 1-hit kills have much faster rate of fire and/or have much easier time hitting people (shotguns, for example).

Also 1-2 seconds is FOREVER when you're in the middle of a fight. considering we've already seen the TTK times pretty short, I don't see how adding the ability for 1-hit kill knives will make much difference anyway.

And, as always, if someone gets behind you and manages to knife you, you should be dead. This is because it's going to be a lot harder to close distances in PS2 than you guys are thinking it will. With more emphasis on teamplay, you're likely going to have squads, not so much individual players, taking points. If an infiltrator wants to knife someone, he needs not only to go unnoticed by you, but also your whole squad. Even if you don't see him, chances are your buddy will...unless he's a particularly good infiltrator/guerrilla fighter, in which case, he deserves the kill. Once you spot him, at ANY distance, he's toast.

I retain my opinion that A) knives should be equipable and useable like any weapon (no quick-knife) and B) If someone has certified for it, a backstab with knives is a 1-hit kill

Sirisian

2012-06-13, 09:56 PM

What's the point of having an equip-able knife when you have a quick-knife?
Two different uses. I'll assume you already read the other thread and skip the in depth explanation. Say both quick knife and equipped knife are 4 hits to kill their target dealling 30% damage each time. Now quick knife requires your soldier to rapidly holster their weapon and swipe their knife out then go back to the holstering animation to pull their weapon up again. This post-swipe delay causes a final strike type mentality. You're shooting someone and you're close enough so if you want you can hit them for 30% health nearly instantly at the cost of a delay afterwards. If you're following an enemy and just wish to knife them from full health you could simply equip your knife to do rapid slashes. (4 to kill in this scenario). Or you can change modes and stab three times assuming no certifications. Something you can't do with a quick knife button.

I already linked my favorite design a few times which balances multiple ways of using the knife. Personally my favorite is still allowing quick knife but holding the quick knife button to throw it to do the same 30% damage, but only once. If you just ran out of ammo for instance and saw a player's health bar was less than 30% health it would be so much cool to hold the the quick knife button for a second and watch an animation of your player flipping the knife onto the blade and allowing you to release it toward your target. Get it to stick in also. I digress. I'm big into giving players random choices even if they'd rarely be used.

berzerkerking

2012-06-13, 09:57 PM

Sneak attack should remain a one hit kill. But i'm all for bayonets as an optional frontal kill.
People freak out with knife but in real life how often have you been able to dodge it> I take classes where I actually do a drill to practice dodging blunted knives. Unless you constantly practice your reaction time is not godlike on its own, so you will get stuck in the neck. I can see countering becoming an optional cert, and equip time being slower, but not everyone will survive a frontal assault. Stabbing speed, and dodging speed would both be skill points to be enhanced. A soldier experienced in countering at the highest level completely dodge the attack and stab his opponent in a slow motion sequence if it was frontal. Sneak attacks are fatal period.

xcel

2012-06-13, 10:01 PM

This thread is disturbingly detailed. Are you sure you're not a serial killer?

Ratstomper

2012-06-13, 10:08 PM

Two different uses. I'll assume you already read the other thread and skip the in depth explanation. Say both quick knife and equipped knife are 4 hits to kill their target dealling 30% damage each time. Now quick knife requires your soldier to rapidly holster their weapon and swipe their knife out then go back to the holstering animation to pull their weapon up again. This post-swipe delay causes a final strike type mentality. You're shooting someone and you're close enough so if you want you can hit them for 30% health nearly instantly at the cost of a delay afterwards. If you're following an enemy and just wish to knife them from full health you could simply equip your knife to do rapid slashes. (4 to kill in this scenario). Or you can change modes and stab three times assuming no certifications. Something you can't do with a quick knife button.

I would actually be ok with this implementation. So long as quick-knifing has a certain scenario it's meant for (moderate damage for finishing off injured enemies, not just running around one-shotting people form full health) and people who want to cert have the ability to use it as an assassination tool can use it in that manner. Just to clarify, you're saying all soldiers have the knife as both a single-hit quick knife button for moderate damage from very short range (right next to the guy) and an equippable version for continuous attacking/backstabs (also, right next to the guy)? I could get behind that.

I don't know about the throwing thing...lets not put the cart in front of the horse, huh? :D

EDIT: Also, the "stabbing mode" in PS1 involved using additional functions of the knife (TR's chain blade was like a mini chainsaw which made noise when turned on, similar to NC's mag-cutter, and VS had a knife that glowed brightly when activated).

Sirisian

2012-06-13, 10:15 PM

Sneak attack should remain a one hit kill.
I really don't think people have thought sneak attacks out well. Even if it's an equipped knife the ability to one-hit someone in a game with so many people standing at vehicle terms and such it just feels cheap. In Planetside 1 we tested this once. The developers patched the game with 1 hit knives. It was ridiculous for cloakers (and regular users). It would need to be on the secondary mode and be audible and only work on stationary targets. Even then it would need to be beta tested. (I personally don't like being one hit by other players).

I can see countering becoming an optional cert, and equip time being slower, but not everyone will survive a frontal assault.
Actually in the other knife thread it came up multiple times that people wanted a way to parry quick knives and normal equip knife attacks. A novel idea which is presented in the implementation I put forth was that any two players that knifed each other at the same time would parry the attack and do no damage. This allows players that are skilled to block such an attack in CQC (even if it only does 30% damage it could still be life saving).

Just to clarify, you're saying all soldiers have the knife as both a single-hit quick knife button for moderate damage from very short range (right next to the guy) and an equippable version for continuous attacking/backstabs (also, right next to the guy)? I could get behind that.
Yeah it's what I've been suggesting the whole time in multiple threads. :lol:

It's all from this thread (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?p=647402#post647402). On the last page is the summary with multiple people's ideas after revision. The justification is in the thread though on the last page and a few other pages.

Version 4: Balanced Knife Design:

Quick-button knife with post use delay equal to the unholstering delay of pulling out the weapon again. (Missing with a quick knife leaves you at a huge disadvantage time wise essentially).

Tapping the quick knife key swipes for 30% damage
Holding the quick knife key transitions to throwing knife after 1 second. 10 m range medium COF. 30% damage
Holding over 1.5 seconds has 25 m with small COF. 35% damage

3-mode equipped knife:

swipe, 30% damage. It's faster for continuous swipes than quick knifing since it lacks the transition back to a weapon)
stab, 35% damage, Audible noise like in PS1.
throw, single use 30% damage (better for multiple knives since there's no holstering delay)

Has pre (1 second to 1.5s when holding down the fire button) and post throw delay (longer animation).
If you don't hold the fire button for 1 second the throw is cancelled.

Throwing knifes has Slow spinning projectile. So if you get hit the person that threw it might be behind cover.
When equipped secondary stab mode does 75% damage when backstabbing stationary targets.
Maxes takes 0% damage from knife attacks.
Damage is uniform across all classes with no class (other than max) having advantages or disadvantages.
If two people knife at the same general time the attacks are parried doing no damage allowing friendlies to kill the attacker. Rare, but this was brought up and is really necessary to help those at low health to protect themselves from a finishing strike. This increases tactics and fulfills the concept of a quick time event for protecting oneself from knife attacks that a few people want.

I don't know about the throwing thing...lets not put the cart in front of the horse, huh? :D
Soon. Actually I should say if no one reads the other thread that a thrown knife has travel time unlike a silenced pistol. So it's possible for a cloaker than has multiple of them to hit players and hide even if they turn on a dark light vision system to attempt to find the cloaker.

Knuckle

2012-06-13, 10:22 PM

I won't say I'm neccessarily against quick knifing. I'd prefer not having it, but I won't stop playing if it is in. So long as it's not one hit kill on ANYTHING. Think about it. In a game like CoD, everyone is the -same-. In Planetside, you have one guy that is x, one is y, and another z. Maybe a one hit knife on infiltrators, two on agile exosuits, three on Rexo, and not being able to knife a MAX at all? No MAX knifing makes sense unless the magcutter is on, as it's like trying to cut into a tank, basically.

Werefox

2012-06-13, 10:26 PM

You aren't taking into consideration that most weapons that can't do 1-hit kills have much faster rate of fire and/or have much easier time hitting people (shotguns, for example).

Altering rates of fire, clip sizes, spreads, and ranges are how different damage types are attempted to be balanced by the developers. And you are right, if somewhat extreme example (relatively), shotguns would require less aim skill than say a bolt action rifle. Conversely, if I hit someone at long range with an assault rifle using 1 round bursts, shouldn't I be rewarded at least as well as the target using a bolt action?

Also 1-2 seconds is FOREVER when you're in the middle of a fight. considering we've already seen the TTK times pretty short, I don't see how adding the ability for 1-hit kill knives will make much difference anyway.

Yes, it is, and it was really just a throw away thought. I just like the idea of hitting someone with my medic's gauss rifle :P

And, as always, if someone gets behind you and manages to knife you, you should be dead. This is because it's going to be a lot harder to close distances in PS2 than you guys are thinking it will. With more emphasis on teamplay, you're likely going to have squads, not so much individual players, taking points. If an infiltrator wants to knife someone, he needs not only to go unnoticed by you, but also your whole squad. Even if you don't see him, chances are your buddy will...unless he's a particularly good infiltrator/guerrilla fighter, in which case, he deserves the kill. Once you spot him, at ANY distance, he's toast.

If someone does manage to get behind me, without me noticing, then well done that (wo)man, have your kill. However, I've been killed a number of times by a spy's knife in TF2, but only a small percentage of those have been because I didn't know they were there. More often, its with the spy running around like a loon swinging like a madman, hoping to get a hit in that is reasonably close to being behind you.

If that scenario was in PS2, your squad isn't going to be all that much use as they are just as likely to kill you as they are the infiltrator. Which you could argue is a skill in itself, but the point is he's been seen and at that point why should they be rewarded for being stealthy, when they haven't?

I retain my opinion that A) knives should be equipable and useable like any weapon (no quick-knife) and B) If someone has certified for it, a backstab with knives is a 1-hit kill

Would you be happy with MAX's having a one hit kill on non-MAXs from their melee attack? In theory they have certified for it by choosing the MAX suit, and given their relative lack of mobility it would take more skill to get into hand to hand than an infiltrator.

Werefox

2012-06-13, 10:32 PM

Would you be happy with MAX's having a one hit kill on non-MAXs from their melee attack? In theory they have certified for it by choosing the MAX suit, and given their relative lack of mobility it would take more skill to get into hand to hand than an infiltrator.

Hehe, I've given myself visions of MAX suited players having slapping competitions in the middle of battlefields :D

... I think i need to lay off the sugar.

qbert2

2012-06-13, 10:39 PM

I'm only ok with it only if: one, it's an inf only weapon. Two, they can't have the knife and the sniper rifle at the same time. Three, they have to be cloaked and have a cert for a one hit kill to get a one hit kill. Otherwise I'd just rather they remove knives and melee attacks from everyone. The other classes shouldn't be the ones attempting to sneak around and knife someone from behind.

Also, any attempts to argue for it for the sake of 'realism' is pointless because if I had an automatic weapon and was behind an enemy I'd be shooting them in the head not unfastening my velcro knife holster, pulling out my knife, slinging my weapon on to my shoulder, grabbing him, turning him around, and then stabbing him in the neck.

The noob

2012-06-13, 10:48 PM

I'm only ok with it only if: one, it's an inf only weapon. Two, they can't have the knife and the sniper rifle at the same time.

By design, I'm betting that's what they are encouraging. The cloak they have using a sniper rifle lasts only for a few seconds, and is very visible, it serves more as an all around ghillie suit than a full cloak. If he sacrifices his primary weapon (aka no shotguns or smgs either), than he gains a much longer and less visible cloak. So if an infil is running around backstabbing people, he probably won't have a primary weapon.

I'll say this, no to one shot quick knives, however, I'll be fine if its an equipable knife, and that it can only be done in backstabs. An equipable knife leaves you much more vulnerable than a simple quick knife does when you kill someone, since you will have to manually switch over to your gun rather than automatically equipping it. It also is more punishing if you get caught trying to knife someone, since you can't knife him, and automatically switch to your gun and start gunning his team mates down as well. Also, the backstab should have to be certified, if you want to be a melee assassin, then you'll have to specialize in it at the expense of other things.

Ratstomper

2012-06-13, 10:51 PM

Altering rates of fire, clip sizes, spreads, and ranges are how different damage types are attempted to be balanced by the developers. And you are right, if somewhat extreme example (relatively), shotguns would require less aim skill than say a bolt action rifle. Conversely, if I hit someone at long range with an assault rifle using 1 round bursts, shouldn't I be rewarded at least as well as the target using a bolt action?

I wouldn't say so, simply because that's not what the weapon is designed to do. If that is how you're playing, then you may want to switch to the weapon that is better suited for that role. Certifications will come into this as well; someone who has spent their hard earned certs on sniping (a somewhat niche ability), then they should have some payoff for that; one-hit kills (assuming they can properly adjust for bullet dropoff and lead appropriately).

It's a bit like saying you cut down a tree with a butterknife instead of a chainsaw; it's not just a bout how much effort you put into it, it's how effective you are in the process that matters.

Yes, it is, and it was really just a throw away thought. I just like the idea of hitting someone with my medic's gauss rifle :P

That's understandable, but we have to take into consideration that everyone has a different playstyle and trying to put what everyone wants in the game is unfeasible. I want a more complex and tactical spotting system, but I doubt it will make it in...

If someone does manage to get behind me, without me noticing, then well done that (wo)man, have your kill. However, I've been killed a number of times by a spy's knife in TF2, but only a small percentage of those have been because I didn't know they were there. More often, its with the spy running around like a loon swinging like a madman, hoping to get a hit in that is reasonably close to being behind you.

That's why it will have to be implemented correctly, not by shirking the idea, but my ensuring that ranges and numbers are made to such a degree that assassinations are working as intended.

If that scenario was in PS2, your squad isn't going to be all that much use as they are just as likely to kill you as they are the infiltrator. Which you could argue is a skill in itself, but the point is he's been seen and at that point why should they be rewarded for being stealthy, when they haven't?

I don't understand this point. If someone (not just an infil) has gotten behind you and gets close enough to kill you without you or your squad noticing, then he should have the kill. Again, it comes down to the details of trying to get the idea to work with all the server technical stuff to ensure it's working correctly in the first place.

Would you be happy with MAX's having a one hit kill on non-MAXs from their melee attack? In theory they have certified for it by choosing the MAX suit, and given their relative lack of mobility it would take more skill to get into hand to hand than an infiltrator.

It's my belief that the ONLY time a 1-hit knife kill can happen is if A) It's been specifically certed for and B) it's an attack from behind. That cert is another very niche ability. Should MAXes be able to one-shot people with melee? No, because they've got two perfectly good guns that they've been mowing people down with the whole time. That's not really what MAX units are designed for. Assassination, however, is right up an infiltrators, or even regular footsoldiers alley; certing to take someone out quietly and efficiently IF the situation is right.

Werefox

2012-06-13, 11:00 PM

I don't understand this point. If someone (not just an infil) has gotten behind you and gets close enough to kill you without you or your squad noticing, then he should have the kill. Again, it comes down to the details of trying to get the idea to work with all the server technical stuff to ensure it's working correctly in the first place.

Apologies, I didn't write that as clear as I should have. It was for the case where the infiltrator has gotten close to a target, has been spotted and is currently running around erratically with a knife attempting to get a back stab. At this point, everyone in the room knows he's there, but the crossfire is more likely to kill friendlies. As soon as the guy has been spotted, he should no longer be able to get 1 shot kills with a knife in my opinion. Knife still does damage, yes, but not 1 shot 'backstabs' no matter how certified you are.

Werefox

2012-06-13, 11:17 PM

I wouldn't say so, simply because that's not what the weapon is designed to do. If that is how you're playing, then you may want to switch to the weapon that is better suited for that role. Certifications will come into this as well; someone who has spent their hard earned certs on sniping (a somewhat niche ability), then they should have some payoff for that; one-hit kills (assuming they can properly adjust for bullet dropoff and lead appropriately).

A rifle is a rifle: a long range hit would still require properly adjusting for bullet drop off and leading appropriately. So at this point the only real difference between the two scenarios is that one individual has spent certificate points one particular way, and is using a weapon better suited for the role they currently find themselves in. From a twitch point of view, they are less skillful than the other player at that point in time.

However, from an overall point of view, yes I think that they should have a benefit from their certification spending - I just don't think that any 1 shot certification, no matter how specialised it is, should exist.

Zolan

2012-06-13, 11:34 PM

Two different uses. I'll assume you already read the other thread and skip the in depth explanation. Say both quick knife and equipped knife are 4 hits to kill their target dealling 30% damage each time. Now quick knife requires your soldier to rapidly holster their weapon and swipe their knife out then go back to the holstering animation to pull their weapon up again. This post-swipe delay causes a final strike type mentality. You're shooting someone and you're close enough so if you want you can hit them for 30% health nearly instantly at the cost of a delay afterwards. If you're following an enemy and just wish to knife them from full health you could simply equip your knife to do rapid slashes. (4 to kill in this scenario). Or you can change modes and stab three times assuming no certifications. Something you can't do with a quick knife button.

I already linked my favorite design a few times which balances multiple ways of using the knife. Personally my favorite is still allowing quick knife but holding the quick knife button to throw it to do the same 30% damage, but only once. If you just ran out of ammo for instance and saw a player's health bar was less than 30% health it would be so much cool to hold the the quick knife button for a second and watch an animation of your player flipping the knife onto the blade and allowing you to release it toward your target. Get it to stick in also. I digress. I'm big into giving players random choices even if they'd rarely be used.

You guys are taking this way too far.

This is Planetside, not Space Ninja Online.

Soldiers in heavy armor shooting laser rifles, firing rocket launchers, and throwing plasma grenades.

A knife should only be used in moments of desperation (no ammo), not as an equivalent (or more powerful) weapon option.

In these "no ammo" cases a player won't even need a quick-knife as they won't have a rifle equipped.

The only players who should even think about using a knife as a primary weapon are infiltrators, but they've actually been hindered by this new attempt to copy "popular" shooters. You can't use a chain-blade alternate setting on a quick-knife.

The knives from the original PS are all PS2 needs. When a player starts considering whether or not to unload a clip from a heavy machine gun, or stab someone with a knife, something is wrong.

It's a first person shooter first, not a first person stabber.

Less of this...

http://i.imgur.com/bsah0.gif

More of this...

http://www.yourprops.com/movieprops/original/yp4f3f5837073689.69556561/Klingon-D-k-Tahg-Dagger.jpg

Ratstomper

2012-06-13, 11:36 PM

Apologies, I didn't write that as clear as I should have. It was for the case where the infiltrator has gotten close to a target, has been spotted and is currently running around erratically with a knife attempting to get a back stab. At this point, everyone in the room knows he's there, but the crossfire is more likely to kill friendlies. As soon as the guy has been spotted, he should no longer be able to get 1 shot kills with a knife in my opinion. Knife still does damage, yes, but not 1 shot 'backstabs' no matter how certified you are.

Yes, but the understanding is that once a squad has seen the attacking soldier, they aren't going to have their backs to him and they aren't going to be standing still. Obviously, it should be impossible to "facestab". I'm totally with you on that and I think it could be implemented well enough that there shouldnt be any issues with people running amok and backstabbing guys in the middle of firefights (unless they sneak up behind someone during a firefight).

A rifle is a rifle: a long range hit would still require properly adjusting for bullet drop off and leading appropriately. So at this point the only real difference between the two scenarios is that one individual has spent certificate points one particular way, and is using a weapon better suited for the role they currently find themselves in. From a twitch point of view, they are less skillful than the other player at that point in time.

However, from an overall point of view, yes I think that they should have a benefit from their certification spending - I just don't think that any 1 shot certification, no matter how specialised it is, should exist.

I'm not sure I understand how anyone would be "less skilled" than another. The fact is that an assault rifle isn't the same as a sniper rifle. The tradeoff is that a sniper rifle is a lot less useful in close/medium engagements. In exchange for that, snipers get scopes and one-hit kills at long range (assuming the can hit with it). Vice Versa, the assault rifle is easily used in close quarters and medium engagements, but lacks the caliber and attachments to do what the sniper rifle does.

Its the same reason why military snipers use M24s instead of M16's. It's a different weapon with different training for a different purpose and the two can hardly be compared.

Ratstomper

2012-06-13, 11:39 PM

You guys are taking this way too far.

Yeah yeah, ok. When you're done riding on your high horse, listen to what we're saying. Noone wants 1-hit facestab kills and noone thinks a knife should be able to outshoot a gun. Obviously.

Zolan

2012-06-13, 11:42 PM

Yeah yeah, ok. When you're done riding on your high horse, listen to what we're saying. Noone wants 1-hit facestab kills and noone thinks a knife should be able to outshoot a gun. Obviously.

I didn't say anything about 1 shot kills, and you can't shoot a knife.

rekefant

2012-06-13, 11:54 PM

Scenario 1: If I'm behind you with a knife.
In this scenario I would knife upwards around the neck towards the skull, in doing so I sever the brain stem. By severing the brain stem you cut off motor function and basic functions like breathing. Outcome: You die.

Scenario 2: If I'm in front of you with a knife.
In this scenario I would thrust my knife through the spaces in your rib cage stabbing the heart (for added fun I give it a little twist and turn). Statistics say IF you receive immediate care (say, from a hospital) you have about a 33% chance of survival,we're on a battlefield and something tells me there are no hospital facilities on Auraxis that you can be carted of to. Outcome: You die.

Universal scenario: I'm in front or behind you with a knife.
There is also a stab that can work from either direction. Simply take the knife and thrust it downward into the soft part of the flesh in between the collar bone on the left side in close proximity of the neck toward the heart (once again, for added fun I can give it a little twist and turn). Once again, it ends up with a knife in your heart. Of course if you wanted to be tricky you could do it from the right side and angle it (though that of course takes a slightly longer blade). Outcome: You die. (Fun fact: this was a favorite of the Romans for execution because when done right you're dead before you hit the ground).

Scenario one, yepp. If you get behind someone you should be able to one hit them with a short animation, but not instantly as these things take time.

Scenarion two, dont think so. Notice that people in PS wear armor? armor that is capable of stoping atleast a few bullets, I dont think you can knife anyone to the chest with enough force to overcome that, not to mention the ribs of the guy would most likely stp the blade before it dealt fatal damage(death within 30 sec). It would deal damage, but not kill instantly(or with animation)

Universal Scenarion, not a chance. Even if you remove the armor, combat movements and the fact that the target is figthing back this is a long shot. To pull this of properly you need to be standing right in front or behind the target(bodies touching) and preferably half a meter higher, in that situation aiming such a thrust would take atleast a few seconds, in PS conditions its downright imposible.

Sirisian

2012-06-13, 11:55 PM

I didn't say anything about 1 shot kills, and you can't shoot a knife.
You linked a pointless image even after everyone basically agreed we were passed arguing about knife lunges and one-hit attacks. Then you linked a picture of a Klingon. You seriously sound like a troll at this point with your complaints about turning the game into "Space Ninja Online". Put up some legitimate argument or drop it.

A knife should only be used in moments of desperation (no ammo), not as an equivalent (or more powerful) weapon option.

In these "no ammo" cases a player won't even need a quick-knife as they won't have a rifle equipped.
Why won't they have a rifle equipped? They'd presumably being shooting someone close range with other people presumably. They can draw a pistol to slowly kill the other player. Or as suggested they could deal a finishing blow using a quick knife if the enemy is at low health. Just giving players choices with which to deal with situations at close range.

The only players who should even think about using a knife as a primary weapon are infiltrators, but they've actually been hindered by this new attempt to copy "popular" shooters. You can't use a chain-blade alternate setting on a quick-knife.
You're trying to think of the game too simply. That is giving player exactly one way to handle every situation. Even for regular players if I see someone standing on a ledge in a base and I sneak up behind them I'm gonna knife them. I don't have to be an infiltrator to make a sweet kill. (Even if it takes a few hits). I'm not going to use a quick knife for that. Ideally a quick knife is a finishing weapon. I'm gonna use the equip mode and maybe switch over to secondary.

The knives from the original PS are all PS2 needs. When a player starts considering whether or not to unload a clip from a heavy machine gun, or stab someone with a knife, something is wrong.
No one is saying it's an effective choice all the time. It is a choice. If someone is staring at you with a rifle you're screwed. In any suggested implementation of the knife you would want to use a gun.

However... if I'm a light assault and I can quickly jet over the top of a heavy assault and mercy kill them with a knife at close range I deserve to do that. Is it stupidly silly to hack at someone 4 times (in regular mode) or 3 times (with stab mode)? Sure. But it's awesome and the game needs that level of skill.

Sledgecrushr

2012-06-14, 12:02 AM

If you equip a knife will you have a pistol in your other hand? This seems kinda cool to me and I was wondering if you all would like that as well.

Zolan

2012-06-14, 12:32 AM

I can't believe I'm replying to this.

You linked a pointless image even after everyone basically agreed we were passed arguing about knife lunges and one-hit attacks. Then you linked a picture of a Klingon. You seriously sound like a troll at this point with your complaints about turning the game into "Space Ninja Online". Put up some legitimate argument or drop it.

The point I was making with the images is that knives should only be used in situations in which there are no other options available. That is of course why soldiers carry knives, as a last resort in close quarters combat. Hence the picture of Klingon's fighting with knives rather than attacking someone with a knife while you had a gun.

The "Space Ninja Online" comment was a reference to your lack of a realistic approach to something that will probably make up less than 5% of game-play.

Everyone keeps talking about "Hey lets throw the knives" or "Hey lets make them back-stab" or "Hey I can lunge in and finish them off" etc. etc.

As if shooting them again or using a pistol wouldn't work in place of an unrealistic lunge stab and "in your face" stabbing maneuver akin to BF3?

...which, in reality, is a bad idea when other people are probably shooting at you as you stab their friend.

Why won't they have a rifle equipped? They'd presumably being shooting someone close range with other people presumably. They can draw a pistol to slowly kill the other player. Or as suggested they could deal a finishing blow using a quick knife if the enemy is at low health. Just giving players choices with which to deal with situations at close range.

If you don't have any ammo, you wouldn't be using a pistol or a rifle.

I think that's pretty self-explanatory.

You're trying to think of the game too simply. That is giving player exactly one way to handle every situation. Even for regular players if I see someone standing on a ledge in a base and I sneak up behind them I'm gonna knife them. I don't have to be an infiltrator to make a sweet kill. (Even if it takes a few hits). I'm not going to use a quick knife for that. Ideally a quick knife is a finishing weapon. I'm gonna use the equip mode and maybe switch over to secondary.

In my experience, FPS gaming is inherently simple.

An equip-able knife can be used however a player wants to use it. If someone wants to whip out a knife and run at an enemy, all the power to them. I won't vouch for their success, but whatever they want to do.

As you said, you don't need a quick-knife to stab someone on a ledge. Switch to your knife, turn on the chain-blade setting, then stab them a few times.

No one is saying it's an effective choice all the time. It is a choice. If someone is staring at you with a rifle you're screwed. In any suggested implementation of the knife you would want to use a gun.

Once again, my point exactly. The only time you would use a knife is when you can't use a gun, aka. out of ammo.

My argument is simple.

The only situations in which you need a knife, you won't be using your gun or will be out of ammo.

Thus, a quick-knife supplement is pointless.

Ratstomper

2012-06-14, 12:35 AM

Occasionally, I find myself arguing about a topic that, in the end, probably won't matter much. I think this may be one of those topics...

Sirisian

2012-06-14, 12:36 AM

If you equip a knife will you have a pistol in your other hand? This seems kinda cool to me and I was wondering if you all would like that as well.
oh man that discussion is a whole different can of worms. Also one that the community has problems discussing. I'd leave it at that. I won't link to any threads, but you can search for "dual wielding" or "akimbo" on the forums for all the cool suggestions that dual wielding utility items and weapons allows. Also the fun COD references from people make for hours of fun reading. :doh:

Everyone keeps talking about "Hey lets throw the knives" or "Hey lets make them back-stab" or "Hey I can lunge in and finish them off" etc. etc.
I'm actually semi-against backstab bonuses and such. I've read every argument for and against them. Ones that want damage bonuses and mobility penalties and such. It's a very complicated subject. One I would really need to see beta tested first.

Once again, my point exactly. The only time you would use a knife is when you can't use a gun, aka. out of ammo.
Note how I've been talking about finishing moves. What if you want to keep your ammo in your gun? Using a quick knife instead of using bullets is a tactical decision especially if I need those bullets to take on another guy. As much as people ignore it, reloading actually takes time in Planetside and is a tactical decision. Using your ammo wisely is something that could come down to life and death in the game. (We saw in the E3 demo players running out of ammo right as they were about to make a kill).

Zolan

2012-06-14, 12:49 AM

Note how I've been talking about finishing moves. What if you want to keep your ammo in your gun? Using a quick knife instead of using bullets is a tactical decision especially if I need those bullets to take on another guy. As much as people ignore it, reloading actually takes time in Planetside and is a tactical decision. Using your ammo wisely is something that could come down to life and death in the game. (We saw in the E3 demo players running out of ammo right as they were about to make and a kill).

If someone is in a situation where they can't manage to finish someone off by unloading their main weapon, then switching to a pistol and unloading that, they probably deserve to get shot.

"Finishing moves" are a cheap attempt at securing kills due to a failure on the part of the player to kill the enemy with his or her guns in the first place.

Sirisian

2012-06-14, 01:08 AM

If someone is in a situation where they can't manage to finish someone off by unloading their main weapon, then switching to a pistol and unloading that, they probably deserve to get shot.
Switching to a pistol takes time in Planetside 2. I think we have a quick draw implant in the game to negate the holstering delay for that reason. If you're at range then using the pistol is your tactical choice. Close range it will almost always be nicer to use a quick-knife to take away their remaining health.

This suggested implementation isn't supposed to override pistols at all. We saw in E3 that pistols are effective medium range weapons. Most of the time players weren't standing next to one another trading shots. Quick knife just gives players that added choice.

I'm not sure why you're against such a simple mechanic. It still allows equipped knife and is only effective in very rare circumstances really. What is the real reason you're against them? Because they're essentially humiliation kills? Someone mentioned that before. That they feel like they're just added to make players feel like they suck. I personally enjoy that.

qbert2

2012-06-14, 01:20 AM

Quick knifes to finish people off is just cheese. If you're shooting at someone with a gun and you cannot finish them off then you shouldn't be allowed to quickly swipe at them and kill them. They were beating you, it shouldn't be a race to see who can get in range and be the first to hit that quick knife button.

What's next, backflips so you can dart in get your swipe and jump out? How about a backflip plus a smoke bomb.

Zolan

2012-06-14, 01:21 AM

I'm not sure why you're against such a simple mechanic. It still allows equipped knife and is only effective in very rare circumstances really. What is the real reason you're against them? Because they're essentially humiliation kills? Someone mentioned that before. That they feel like they're just added to make players feel like they suck. I personally enjoy that.

1. They are unrealistic.
- pull knife out of sheathe + lunge + stab + pullout + place back in sheathe (All in one second with only one hand)

2. They make up for a failure to aim.

3. Everything they can do, an equip-able knife can do better.

4. They aren't "honorable" kills.
- When you use an equip-knife, you commit that you are going to stab them and that you can best them in hand-to-hand combat.

5. Only ponzi little milk-drinkers use them.

Sirisian

2012-06-14, 01:51 AM

Quick knifes to finish people off is just cheese.
What definition of "cheese" are you using? Overpowered or unsportsman-like? (I don't play SC2, so I had to look up the word :lol: ) What implementation are you talking about? What if you're not running out of ammo? You just don't want to waste ammo and just choose to knife their last health and move onto the next guy?

Also don't use a slippery slope logical fallacy. Most people online are aware of them and will call you out on them. It makes you seem like a child (ad-hominem ftw).

it shouldn't be a race to see who can get in range and be the first to hit that quick knife button.
Why would it be a race? Players aren't going to be trying to get close to one another. They are going for the capturable. The enemy is essentially camping the location. If they want the kill they'll use their rifle most of the time at range.

Ignoring the realism claim and fluff "ponzi" (as in ponzi scheme?) ad-hominem which has been discussed to death in other threads.
2. They make up for a failure to aim.
You're close range. You still need to point and "click". There's no difference in skill between knifing at that range and using any other weapon. Unless you're assuming a lock-on knife? I hate those also.

3. Everything they can do, an equip-able knife can do better.
You can still equip with the implementation we described. It just requires a holster delay to switch to. Thus allowing equipped knife is for fast slashes and quick knife is for performing 1 knife slash and going back to a rifle or pistol quickly as a trade-off.

4. They aren't "honorable" kills.
- When you use an equip-knife, you commit that you are going to stab them and that you can best them in hand-to-hand combat.
In the implementation I described this was brought up which is why players wanted a parry. If two people quick knife at the same time the knife damage is negated such that quick knifing isn't necessarily an "i win" button even for players below 30% health. It allows friendlies to then kill the player or for a player to retreat as both player reholster their weapons. (Especially for light assault).

I view it as an extremely honorable kill. It takes a decision of when to use it at close range over sitting back and just picking off your target with a rifle or using a gun at close range. Especially in a cramped capture pointer where players are running in one after another for the cap. When you use a quick knife in the implementation I described you commit to it. There is a post-swipe holstering delay back to your weapon which means if you miss or use it wrong you'll pay for it. (Especially if the enemy lives).

Regarding realism the knives are supposedly pretty sharp (nanite edges). At 30% health the player supposedly has no shield at that point. They could for all I care make the animation stabbing swipe. Imagine reaching with your hand to the opposite side of your belt to grab a knife then flipping the knife so it's facing toward the player and stabbing straight into the enemy. Kind of an aesthetic. I'm mostly focusing on gameplay, but I could see how the animation would be bothersome if it didn't look like a finishing move.

Werefox

2012-06-14, 02:02 AM

1. They are unrealistic.

Got to be careful with 'x is unrealistic' arguments in a video game set on a far distant planet, using futuristic materials and where death is but a minor inconvenience :P

qbert2

2012-06-14, 02:13 AM

You can make an argument for realism in regards to quick knifing. I can't imagine a universe where you'd rather run towards someone to knife them while you both have guns.

Malorn

2012-06-14, 02:25 AM

There's another thread on quick knife, but yeah, realism is something to factor in on that one. A pistol-whip or rifle butt-strike would be better than producing a knife out of thin air. It can even have the same mechanical effect.

From a gameplay perspective, I'd like to see bayonette attachments to allow a "quick knife" like Day of Defeat had long ago. In DoD having a bayonette or doing a butt-strike as a rifelman was a perk of the class, as every other class had to equip their melee. That's how they balanced semi-auto and bolt-action rifles against SMGs and light machineguns.

PS2 could do the same thing with an attachment (instead of suppressor, foregrip, w/e) that gives you a deadly quick melee attack. I'd be fine with that being a 1-hit kill too, as you pay a tradeoff for that benefit.

To me there's really only 3 reasons to use a knife.

1) Stealth - you want a quiet kill. If you are sneaking up on an opponent you have plenty of time to equip the knife and quick knife doesn't really matter unless you expect to shoot someone immediately after (see bayonette above)

2) Last Resort - you emptied your rifle mag, emptied your pistol mag, the opponent is nearby and bringing out the knife would be faster and likely more successful than reloading the pistol or rifle. In this situation a quick knife is obviously preferred since it saves more time over reloading - but again, another benefit of a bayonette. Pistols usually reload quickly, and I prefer they are used over knives unless you are very close, which usually doesn't happen often. So really the pistol is your fallback weapon most of the time, not the knife. The knife is dire situations.

3) Humiliation. This is actually the reason the knife is used most in gaming because it's a humiliation kill and an e-peen thing. If you knife you got leet skillz, or so people like to think. To me this is even more reason to not have a quick knife because it cheapens the kill. When quick knife is easy then knifing someone isn't nearly the humiliation or accomplishment that it could be. Like dying to a beamer - if the beamer was good it wouldnt' have been quite as disasterous to die to one. You want to be leet? Good knifer? Then equip knife should be the only acceptable option. Keeps posers away.

I'm ok with melee strikes and such but the equip knife should always be stronger than anything quick, unless it's a bayonette which you intentionally took over some other advantage. In that case you made a tradeoff decision and you should have a worthwhile benefit for making it. Quick melee kill is a reasonable benefit for that tradeoff IMO.

Werefox

2012-06-14, 02:34 AM

You can make an argument for realism in regards to quick knifing. I can't imagine a universe where you'd rather run towards someone to knife them while you both have guns.

Star Gate SG1 where one of the combatants is wearing a goa'uld shield that only allows slow moving projectiles through (stops bullets/lazers cold).

As long as there is a weapon of last resort, I'm happy to hold judgment until I can see it for myself. I am against certification points that turns a weapon into a one hit kill against its intended target, but that's really an a side to the conversation.

Sirisian

2012-06-14, 03:11 AM

You can make an argument for realism in regards to quick knifing. I can't imagine a universe where you'd rather run towards someone to knife them while you both have guns.
You're assuming it would already be more effective in the implementation to use a knife? Walking up to the side of an engineer on a turret and shooting them then knifing them comes to mind. With a proper implementation you can't just walk up and one hit them with a knife. If you hit them and it only did 30% damage and you sat there pulling out your weapon you'd be like "oh can't use a quick knife like that".

2) Last Resort - you emptied your rifle mag, emptied your pistol mag, the opponent is nearby and bringing out the knife would be faster and likely more successful than reloading the pistol or rifle. In this situation a quick knife is obviously preferred since it saves more time over reloading - but again, another benefit of a bayonette. Pistols usually reload quickly, and I prefer they are used over knives unless you are very close, which usually doesn't happen often. So really the pistol is your fallback weapon most of the time, not the knife. The knife is dire situations.
I really think taking out the pistol takes time. If people are at a range of say a few meters it makes sense to use your pistol especially if you have the quick draw implant. Quick knife for a player with say less than 30% health is only applicable at close range. Ideally it wouldn't happen often. Personally I don't want to hurt the use of the pistol in anyway, but if the player is a few meters away and at less than 30% health I really want to throw my knife by holding the quick knife button. That kind of kill is memorable and extremely rewarding.

Are you serious about the bayonet? I've been imagining every animation and implementation for that and it just hits me as extremely awkward. Also I find it odd how people are saying a pistol whip to kill an enemy is a more realistic kill than a nanite sharp knife basically designed to pierce armor at close range.

3) Humiliation. This is actually the reason the knife is used most in gaming because it's a humiliation kill and an e-peen thing. If you knife you got leet skillz, or so people like to think. To me this is even more reason to not have a quick knife because it cheapens the kill. When quick knife is easy then knifing someone isn't nearly the humiliation or accomplishment that it could be. Like dying to a beamer - if the beamer was good it wouldnt' have been quite as disasterous to die to one. You want to be leet? Good knifer? Then equip knife should be the only acceptable option. Keeps posers away.

I agree it is more humuliating to die to a 100% knife kill. I believe it shows what you died by on the kill menu. If it said 27% damage via a player's knife for a quick knife and 100% knife kill there is an obvious difference between a full knife kill and a quick knife kill. If we had acheivements the system could differentiate between the two easily. Quick knife could be labeled "Finisher" and 100% knife would be a true Humuliation kill.

The humiliation also has two sides. For the person on the other side knifing someone at close range is very rewarding. You tried to talk it down, but it is very rewarding gameplay mechanic that players usually enjoy a lot. The thing I look for with something like a quick knife is if the person that died to it felt like they earned it. If I'm getting shot and someone knifes me or if a light assault flies over me while shooting and lands next to me and does a quick knife for only 30% health I'm gonna know he earned the kill whatever way he got it.

The problem with unbalanced knifing in some games is you get killed and it does feel like the system overrode the gun mechanic in the game, but a proper implementation won't have that feeling. (Which is why I want to beta test it and play around with it first).

I'm ok with melee strikes and such but the equip knife should always be stronger than anything quick, unless it's a bayonette which you intentionally took over some other advantage. In that case you made a tradeoff decision and you should have a worthwhile benefit for making it. Quick melee kill is a reasonable benefit for that tradeoff IMO.
This is the idea I keep bringing up. Quick knife's use is purely for a finishing move if it's post-use delay is significant enough. That is equipping the knife and holstering the knife will be preferable for actual stealth and really humiliating kills. That and you'd need to equip it to use the secondary mode ideally.

Sledgecrushr

2012-06-14, 08:30 AM

I absolutely just love the bayonet idea. It really harkens back to ww1 and earlier. It would be something that you add to your rifle instead of range, damage, accuracy or whatnot. This could truly be a one shot melee weapon and not be rediculous. And I just love the look of the long bayonet attached to a rifle. I think this could be pretty iconic within a sci fi setting.

Zolan

2012-06-14, 06:19 PM

Got to be careful with 'x is unrealistic' arguments in a video game set on a far distant planet, using futuristic materials and where death is but a minor inconvenience :P

I wasn't referring to it's killing power.

I was referring to it's use and animation.

If anyone can post a video of themselves unsheathing a knife (from a belt I would assume), lunging forward, stabbing something, pulling the knife out, and putting it back in the sheathe, all with one hand and in no more than 1-2 seconds, I will change my mind.

You have to at least take basic "realism" into account when making games, no matter whether it occurs in the future or not.

Fanglord

2012-06-14, 06:33 PM

I want a hammer.

Werefox

2012-06-14, 07:34 PM

I wasn't referring to it's killing power.

I was referring to it's use and animation.

If anyone can post a video of themselves unsheathing a knife (from a belt I would assume), lunging forward, stabbing something, pulling the knife out, and putting it back in the sheathe, all with one hand and in no more than 1-2 seconds, I will change my mind.

You have to at least take basic "realism" into account when making games, no matter whether it occurs in the future or not.

I fully agree that a game should be internally consistent, but that is not the same as realism, which was the point I was making.

People can react quicker under duress than in practice. For instance, I did hear of an american police officer who was forced to let go of his night stick, draw his side arm, and put two shots down range - all before the night stick hit the ground.

I actually think that you could perform the action you describe in the time period - 1 to 2 seconds is a surprisingly along time when adrenaline is up, just need to chat to pretty much any professional drag car driver. I'd try it myself but I lack a knife and sheaf, so you could be right and it is impossible for all I know; but I also doubt you've tried it either *shrug*.

As an aside I was thinking some more (and chatting to my flatmate) about 1 hit back stab knife kills via a certifications last night. We came to the conclusion if that was entered there would need to be some sort of certification counter to it (reinforced neck guard armor or something) which doesn't necessarily remove all damage, but prevents the 1 hit kill - at which point I'd be more happy to include the back stab.

Jaenus

2012-06-14, 07:38 PM

Wasnt in PS1

Methonius

2012-06-14, 08:28 PM

Hey guys why don't they just allow us to throw the knives lol....Then they are just like bullets rofl...before you flame I'm joking if you can't tell. We could have headshot knife kills also lol.

Exidius

2012-06-14, 08:42 PM

Modern shooters suck for realism. They play out like everyone is running around without bodyarmor on. Its like you guys want a sci fi game where everyone is still armored like it was ww2. I can already see from todays military that armor is beating bullets. The Taliban has a terrible time managing any kills of our brave soldiers in the field because there bullets bounce off of our guys(barring a lucky shot in an unarmored area). This is the perception of war from fighting third world militias for the last ten years and its just not correct. I want more melee options.
You re right modern shooters suck in points of Realism, but on the other hand they have to. A game in which you have 2 teams one greatly underpowered with no body armor and old guns (well actually now that i think of it that sounds interesting if you juggle the team numbers a bit...)
But back to Topic, if armor evovles so do the weapons, sometimes the weapons are ahead a bit (crossbows, WW2 infantry) sometimes the armor (todays body armor, early armored Babylonian Lancers), but a knife ALWAYS wins (by bypassing the armor) IF there is no fighting back (Exept we talk about full body armor, which as the name says covers all Areas --> MAX)
But this doesn t mean that if you swing your knife at somebody it should be a kill. I d prefer a time costly one-hit backstab (BF3 like which left you very vulnerable) and an equipable fast shlashing medicore dmg blade. (If you re out of ammo and nowhere is new ammo to be found)

Sledgecrushr

2012-06-14, 09:31 PM

You re right modern shooters suck in points of Realism, but on the other hand they have to. A game in which you have 2 teams one greatly underpowered with no body armor and old guns (well actually now that i think of it that sounds interesting if you juggle the team numbers a bit...)
But back to Topic, if armor evovles so do the weapons, sometimes the weapons are ahead a bit (crossbows, WW2 infantry) sometimes the armor (todays body armor, early armored Babylonian Lancers), but a knife ALWAYS wins (by bypassing the armor) IF there is no fighting back (Exept we talk about full body armor, which as the name says covers all Areas --> MAX)
But this doesn t mean that if you swing your knife at somebody it should be a kill. I d prefer a time costly one-hit backstab (BF3 like which left you very vulnerable) and an equipable fast shlashing medicore dmg blade. (If you re out of ammo and nowhere is new ammo to be found)

I absolutely agree that if you spec high enough you should be allowed to assassinate certain lightly armored classes. I also think the HA should probably get seriously wounded with an assassination move. But I also thing a super bowie knife should not do any damage at all to maxes. Just way too much armor for the little bit of force generated by a fist swinging a knife. This is why I love the bayonet because you put that super bowie on the end of a three foot long five pound spear you should be able to kill a max with a good well aimed shot.

Sirisian

2012-06-14, 09:49 PM

But I also thing a super bowie knife should not do any damage at all to maxes. Just way too much armor for the little bit of force generated by a fist swinging a knife.
In the previous knife threads this was the general opinion. No one even suggested a percentage of damage. Just no damage, which for the class I 100% agree. Actually technically for damaging MAX infantry the developers are allowing us to place C4 onto them which is the proper way to assassinate them rather than a knife.

Ratstomper

2012-06-15, 02:38 PM

I just posted this in another thread, even though it should have gone here, probably...anyways, I've been thinking about this quick-knife vs equippable knife thing and here's my idea...

1) Essentially have a quick switch button specifically for your knife. Map it to an easy to reach key so that it quickly draws your knife and lets you use it as a standard equippable weapon. Press the key again and it switches back to your previous weapon. This makes it so that the knife is quickly accessible to someone who may want to finish off a wounded opponent who they've rushed or have gotten close to for some reason.

2) Adjust delays so that unsheathing is fairly quick, but resheathing takes a bit longer (if you've ever quickly pulled a knife out of a sheath and then put it back, you'll understand that this makes a lot of sense). You've whipped out your knife and finished someone off, but you've got some time before you can switch back to your previous weapon (1 or 2 seconds, which we've seen is pretty long with the current TTK) and if he's got buddies who've probably noticed you knifed their friend, you may very well be hosed.

3) Adjust damage values to reasonable levels. Allow knives to do moderate damage (30% sounds good to me, but may need tweaking) on all infantry (no MAX units/vehicles) from all sides. This means that if someone wants to run in rambo style with a knife, they will probably die. You'll have to be smart about when you use a knife, because you'll die before they will if you charge someone straight on with it.

4) (most on-topic) Allow all infantry to cert into a knife tree that will allow one-hit assassinations if attacking from behind and using the knife's secondary mode. This will most likely be for infiltrators, but can logically be used by regular infantry (no MAX units) in guerrilla fighting and ambushes. Make it so the "kill area" is relatively small so you don't run into "Facestabbing" issues. Along with the sheathing delay, this adds additional commitment to someone who wants to assassinate someone with a knife and gives any nearby enemies at least some chance to respond to whats going on.

5) Make the secondary modes subtley give position away. In PS1, using secondary knife modes meant the knife made noise or glowed. I think for PS2, all knives should give off a faint sound when turned on. This acts as an audible cue to be on your guard and gives someone a bit of a fair chance before getting one-shotted.

6) (goes without saying) Adjust all values to a balanced state: Damage (standard and secondary modes), delay (sheathing and unsheathing), swing time, secondary-mode sound level and range. Test and balance. Test and balance.

- TL : DR -

1) Give knives a quick-switch button instead of a quick-knife button.
2) Make it so that putting the knife away takes longer than pulling it out.
3) Allow knives to do moderate damage with standard attacks (no 1-hit kills)
4)Allow a certification that allows assassinations from behind while using the secondary mode on knives.
5)Make secondary modes for knives give off a faint sound to give somewarning to potential assassination targets.
6)Test and balance to make sure all values produce a desired and fun knife mechanism.

Lemme know what you guys think.

Sirisian

2012-06-15, 03:19 PM

1) Essentially have a quick switch button specifically for your knife. Map it to an easy to reach key so that it quickly draws your knife and lets you use it as a standard equippable weapon. Press the key again and it switches back to your previous weapon. This makes it so that the knife is quickly accessible to someone who may want to finish off a wounded opponent who they've rushed or have gotten close to for some reason.
This is essentially the same system people described that wanted an equipped knife also. You press 5 or whatever and it switches to it. The whole idea with a quick knife is it's a macro specialized option that switches to the knife, attacks, and switches back to your gun (post-swipe delay). If we have both a quick knife and equipped knife (which I and a few others have been wanting) then it allows the best of both worlds.

You might like this implementation at the bottom (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=647402&postcount=245) which implements both a non-one-hit quick knife and a non-one-hit equipped knife using the concept of delays to balance their use rather than different damage.

Ratstomper

2012-06-15, 03:26 PM

This is essentially the same system people described that wanted an equipped knife also. You press 5 or whatever and it switches to it. The whole idea with a quick knife is it's a macro specialized option that switches to the knife attacks and switches back to your gun (post-swipe delay). If we have both a quick knife and equipped knife (which I and a few others have been wanting) then it allows the best of both worlds.

You might like this implementation at the bottom (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=647402&postcount=245) which implements both a non-one-hit quick knife and a non-one-hit equipped knife using the concept of delays to balance their use rather than different damage.

No, it's really not. That's the PS1 system where you reach up and hit 5 and then have to press another button to switch back to the weapon you were using previously. People want easy access to their knives, but it has to be done in a way that isn't quick-knife. I know what quick knife is and I know what the old style is; this is a compromise between the two.

What they SHOULDN'T do is make this system more convoluted or complex than it needs to be. People won't like it and people are what fuels the game.