How to pay for large units?

[Mechzz]

This came up in the outfit thread, but I think it applies generally.

When someone pulls a passenger vehicle like a Galaxy or Sunderer, how should it be payed for?

Should the driver pay the whole cost?
Or should his outfit be allowed to chip in towards the cost?
Or should the BASIC vehicle be the same cost as quad bike and each passenger pays for a seat when they get in? (Purchaser pays for upgrades)

I'm not a huge fan of an outfit taxing me for my resources, although I do see the logic of it. So I tend to prefer the option where each passenger pays a bit when they jump in.

Thoughts?

[ZeroOneZero]

What if some players are broke, you're going to abandon them? :( I think it's going to be faction based resources.

[ringring]

I replied in the oterh thread but I aqgree the topic deserves a thread of it's own......

Conductors on galaxies ... "I would have liked a ride but I can't afford the fare"

Being serious .... new players, if you have any in your outfit you probably want to put them in the galaxy to make sure they turn up at the right place at the right time. It maybe they are the very ones who are resource poor.

On the other hand the galaxies may be the type of craft that get shot out of the sky often.

Maybe the best solution is to manipulate the price downwards and balance with survivability (and don't have a new player flying your gal).

[Traenor]

I think that you should pay it all as the driver. There is a couple of reasons for this:
1: With tax, you are encouraged to not enter vehicles if you do not know the person, decreasing teamwork between strangers.
2: With tax, you cant resupply your transport with people without making it overcosted.
3: You own the vehicle, you should pay for it.

[Ceska]

Maybe you earn extra ressource for transporting people. Galaxy and Sundi Driver will get rich !

[Meriv]

For that reason the outfit should chip (with the tax) the galaxy soo strong players will be able to help not strong ones but withouth just a strong player carring all the cost of the action

[Meriv]

I think that you should pay it all as the driver. There is a couple of reasons for this:
1: With tax, you are encouraged to not enter vehicles if you do not know the person, decreasing teamwork between strangers.
2: With tax, you cant resupply your transport with people without making it overcosted.
3: You own the vehicle, you should pay for it.

Ok this originated from the outfit treadh soo manly it shouldnt apply into entering a stranger galaxy

[Turdicus]

The driver should pay the entire cost. It is the same across the board for all support roles because they get potential xp for performing those roles (if they have implemented support xp like they should). When an engineer puts down a rearm station he pays a resource cost to do it, but presumably gets xp based on the people that use it. Similarly a galaxy pilot pays resources to spawn the gal, but gets xp for transporting those players and for other things as well.

It's like throwing a grenade: you pay 10 resources to toss it, but you get potential xp if it does its job.

[HellsPanda]

As a future transport driver/pilot. I would like to pay for it myself, just so I don't have to listen to people who feel entitled on what I should be doing

[Meriv]

As a future transport driver/pilot. I would like to pay for it myself, just so I don't have to listen to people who feel entitled on what I should be doing

ok you didnt read the post that brought to this point, ok ur point is correct, but now take this in consideration, u are in a outfit carrying orders soo who pays?

[SideOfBeef]

It doesn't make sense to add a bunch of confusing economic systems because a vehicle in a game we haven't played might be too expensive. It can be rebalanced, and one could argue that the Galaxy should be difficult to spam over and over.

To your specific proposal: How does the price change for a Galaxy Gunship? Presumably there are less passengers, so the overall price goes down? That just isn't fair.

[Stardouser]

I think there should definitely be a cost sharing system, since there is not a resource trading system. It should be limited to Galaxy TRANSPORTS and Sunderers.

[CutterJohn]

They aren't that pricey, at least according to E3. I didn't see what the gal cost, but the sunderer cost 150 of the lowest end resource that was only shared by ATVs and Grenades. I'm betting Gals come from this pool as well.

Presumably, the XP rewards from using them will make it worth your while.

[diLLa]

ok you didnt read the post that brought to this point, ok ur point is correct, but now take this in consideration, u are in a outfit carrying orders soo who pays?

Still you, as you contribute to your outfit, the outfit shouldn't contribute to you.

[Meriv]

I think there should definitely be a cost sharing system, since there is not a resource trading system. It should be limited to Galaxy TRANSPORTS and Sunderers.

For this reason i advice all to read the last post of the treadh of "what outfits needs" because we were proposing a tax sistem to outfit players to chip for the galaxy soo strong players can help for example to trasport not soo strong ones that cannot afford a galaxy (or dont ahve enought time to play) but withouth making all pay the pilot.

[Baneblade]

The cost of the vehicles go up the more customization you add.

[Azren]

The sunderer will probably cost around the same as the tanks. If you get resources for support duty (repair), it's cost will come back fast.

The gal is a mobile spawn point and should be priced higher for this option. Resource gain for support duty will be huge from this one.

This is of course if we do get resources for support, but if we don't, well, let's just say there will be a few threads about it.

All in all, the driver should pay the full value of the vehicle as he will recieve the full support exp and resources in return.

[Meriv]

They aren't that pricey, at least according to E3. I didn't see what the gal cost, but the sunderer cost 150 of the lowest end resource.

Presumably, the XP rewards from using them will make it worth your while.

On the E3 the players had full resources (5000 cap) soo they could spam what'ever they wanted. We still are figuring how many resources you will be making , and the maths werent the nicest ones, but think if u need 3-4 hours to be able to spam a galaxy what would u do when u are flaked down?

[Mechzz]

yeah, I agree we don't want/need to fantasise on all sorts of complicated payment mechanisms before we know more about the details. But I also hadn'tr seen this point discussed and wanted to see what peeps think.

I also had forgotten that as a Gal pilot I would get xp for kills made from my plane. Does that count for hot drops as well as spawns?

[ringring]

I also had forgotten that as a Gal pilot I would get xp for kills made from my plane. Does that count for hot drops as well as spawns?

Unsure although Higby did say that you would get xp for all the thing you would expect to get xp for, so going by that I'd say yes.

One thing to remember is in planetside gal dropping onto a hot base is a good way to get all your squad killed quickly. So maybe in ps2 with higher populations xp from gal drops may not be an xp fountain.

[Stardouser]

For this reason i advice all to read the last post of the treadh of "what outfits needs" because we were proposing a tax sistem to outfit players to chip for the galaxy soo strong players can help for example to trasport not soo strong ones that cannot afford a galaxy (or dont ahve enought time to play) but withouth making all pay the pilot.

That only helps outfits though, the resource sharing system I am thinking of simply splits the cost of a vehicle across squad members. SOE wants to encourage outfits, but surely not require them, that's why I am thinking of a squad sharing system. This would allow people who squad up independent of an outfit to share the Galaxy/Sunderer cost. And the reason why this would be for transport vehicles only is to prevent it from being used on individual vehicles like tanks and reavers.

As for outfits, and an outfit tax, that's good too. But when would the withdrawal from members occur? I see two possibilities:

1. At the point of purchase, the purchased Galaxy would deduct a portion of the cost from all members
2. Outfit members would pay resources into a common Outfit pool(since individual players have maximum resources).

Either way, outfits could assign "Resource Pool" purchasing rights to whomever they see fit, and these players could be authorized to purchase Galaxies/Sunderers with guild resources. Option 2 is the only one that makes real sense, and, they have done it before with Everquest, in the form of Tribute. Tribute was used to provide certain guild-wide beneficial magical effects and in the Guild roster, you could see who had contributed what.

By the way, we may as well support a tax system now, it's going to be needed if we ever have outfit airships.

[The Kush]

Driver should pay for it

[Bazilx]

I think they should add large mechanized units to the official store that you can only buy with real money, they should be driven by 1 person and walk like large mech-units with weapons, maybe they could have like a 2-minute timer so you can't spam them though and they should have a shield that regenerates, just my 2 cents.

Edit:

oh and you could name them Big Fighting Robots.

[Turdicus]

I also had forgotten that as a Gal pilot I would get xp for kills made from my plane. Does that count for hot drops as well as spawns?

In PS1 if you dropped people out of your galaxy a timer started for those individual passengers. If they got kills or otherwise earned xp within that timer the pilot of the gal earned xp for it. It worked that way for other support roles as well. It was a good system, and it will probably be brought back in a similar way to PS2.

I don't know about earning resources for support roles, I mean I don't think I'm AGAINST it, but it doesn't really change the argument too much in my book. If a support role earns you xp then the driver should pay for the support item. You spend resources to earn XP, just like everything else.

[Sirisian]

Refer to the last section in this thread titled "Vehicle Terminal Negotiation System" which solves this problem. (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=39652) This is not the first thread this has been discussed in. :)

[Malorn]

I have thoughts in the outfit thread about an outfit bank based around the ideas of MMORPG banks where people pay for repairs from the guild bank. I won't repeat here, but for this discussion I wanted to throw out some thoughts about special vehicles like the gal and sunderer.


Galaxies and Sunderers are support vehicles. There is no great glory to the pilot. No kill spam. No awesome K/D ratio. If anything such vehicles are a liability to one's stats. But they are important for success in PS2, and important for the empire.

They're also the most expensive vehicles from what we saw in E3.

I don't think it's a good idea to do anything that would discourage someone from playing support, because the game already discourages it by promoting kills, K/D, kills-per-minute, etc. It's already killwhore focused, so finding people willing to invest their cert points into something that will not make them "better" in the eyes of a lot of the population is hard from the start. Then you want to make those people pay for the costs of the vehicles they're using to support their outfit and bring their outfit and their empire success.

Remember the AMS driver from PS1? yeah that was a shitty job bringing up the AMS. No glory in it. Now in PS2 they're further glorifying killwhoring and now the AMS driver pay out of pocket for supporting the team. WTF? Do they want nobody to fly a gal in as a spawn point?

Same for the sunderer, and to a lesser extent the lib pilot that provides all the kills for the gunner.

At the least, there should be some way that the gal pilot doesn't have to make all the sacrifices. People who play support should be heroes and we should love them. Giving them some means to help pay for the services they provide is something an outfit or at least the people being provided said services should do.

[ThermalReaper]

I meant to make a thread about this but I got lazy. :(
My guess you can make it an option if you want to be kind and share the cost of resources it'll be good.

[Trafalgar]

Having not played PlanetSide 1, I started by pondering the system used in Allegiance (everyone donates paychecks to commander, commander authorizes (or denies) purchases), but concluded that it would probably not work well for PlanetSide 2, regardless of who the paychecks were donated to. People would either disable the feature if possible, or simply not group if that was necessary to avoid it, as the hassle from requiring authorization for the huge number of necessary purchases would be too great.

Edit: Five new posts while I typed, erased, and rewrote mine? And no warning from the forums before posting?

[Mechzz]

Refer to the last section in this thread titled "Vehicle Terminal Negotiation System" which solves this problem. (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=39652) This is not the first thread this has been discussed in. :)

Thanks Sirisian, I read most posts most days, but I guess I can't remember them all :)

The ideas in the linked thread are fairly complicated, but would seem to achieve the goal of spreading the cost in a fair way.

Something I'm concerned about that prompted this thread is the thought of outfit taxation. If I join an outfit and it turns out they were "not the ones for me" I don't want to have already given 10% or whatever of my resources to them with no refunds allowed.

So I'm glad the thread you linked to showed me Malorn's mention of "free tax" which would be a more painless way to pay for outfit membership, assuming the idea of outfits buying vehicles or anything else ever gets into the game. If outifts do get funds though, there had better be damned good financial protection and management tools or the Auraxians will form the 4th empire after outfit leaders go megalomaniac on us - Occupy!

[ringring]

To be honest I am not in favour of outfit taxation and if a tax is necessary then to my mind there is something wrong.

[SirDart]

Here is an interesting proposal for how to spread the resource 'cost' for vehicles between the players and outfit. Integrate it into the Mission system...

If we make missions that can be created BY the outfit FOR the outfit, they should be able to set a level of 'subsidy' to have their own players spawn that vehicle. The player who volunteers/enlisted and accepts the mission can spawn the vehicle and pay less or nothing for the vehicle, and the outfit will pay the subsidy.

I know it sounds complicated, but if the mission system is in place, there is no reason that the subsidy cannot be set to a default level, so an outfit commander merely needs to create the mission to give a 'perk' to purchase a vehicle, and really won't be interfering with game play.

Besides, even people outside the game (PS2 App) could generate the missions within the outfit while not having to be "in-game".

[Pepsi]

Just make the pilot pay for it. If you spread the cost among multiple players, then it is likely the cost will be too expensive for one person to pay even with max resources. If you dump the responsibility entirely on the pilot then the devs are obligated to reduce the costs so one person can reasonably afford the large craft.

[Baneblade]

Jebus Vanu Kriest people!

It doesn't need to be a tax, we already have the perfect system in PS1. A percentage of each member's resource gains (BEP/CEP) is duplicated and placed into the Outfit Bank (outfit points). No tax, just bonus earns for the outfit.

[Zekeen]

Make the pilot pay all, make it cost a bunch, give us pilots a reason to be respected, we'll fork over the fee, don't you worry.

[Pepsi]

Make the pilot pay all, make it cost a bunch, give us pilots a reason to be respected, we'll fork over the fee, don't you worry.Yeah, we already sacrifice our K/D and the glory of the battle. This doesn't really matter much.

Protip: If you're worrying about people not wanting to be a Gal pilot because the costs might turn them away, they aren't the kind of support pilot you want to trust your virtual life with. :D

[Unforgiven]

if vehicle cost is this big of a deal for you, than take good care of your vehicle, obviously you want it to more than pay for itself.

luckily there is a simple fix for this....DONT BE STUPID! use your vehicle wisely and dont be careless, it will do just fine, i promise.

[Mechzz]

if vehicle cost is this big of a deal for you, than take good care of your vehicle, obviously you want it to more than pay for itself.

luckily there is a simple fix for this....DONT BE STUPID! use your vehicle wisely and dont be careless, it will do just fine, i promise.

Hmm. Sounds like there may be an opening for an insurance salesman on Auraxis.

*I'll cover your Gal for accidental loss within 40 seconds of spawning for, oh, 5 auraxium*

Who would get the concession? Geiko? Confused.com?

Oh, back on topic, I forgot that as an outfit member a % of my XP went to them. Agree there's no need for any tax if we keep that system, phew!

[Landtank]

There should be absolutely NO cost sharing, and no outfit bank, and no getting resources for playing support.

If you choose to be a Gal pilot, you get experience from using it effectively. Same as every other vehicle. If you don't use it correctly, you lose resources. It keeps the game from having extremely strong vehicles spammed for one, and ensures that only people who know what they are doing use them.

I'm a Galaxy pilot, and not for the glory, that's for sure. I do it for the results.

[Sifer2]

My first instinct is to just let the driver pay the full cost. But make the role rewarding enough that people still want to do it. Like xp every time someone resupplies their ammo from it in the field. Sounds easily exploitable though even as I type that.

If its a tax it should probably be done through the terminal itself. So the squad just communicates an all pitches in to spawn it. That way you don't need to make the broke newbie pay anything.

[Hmr85]

I am of the opinion that if you want the unit you pay for it. If you don't like that then don't worry. There will be plenty of people out there who will be willing pull things such as Galaxy's and so on. Until we know the exact amount the units are going to cost and the rate at which we accumulate resources this topic is mute imo.

[Sirisian]

There should be absolutely NO cost sharing, and no outfit bank, and no getting resources for playing support.

If you choose to be a Gal pilot, you get experience from using it effectively. Same as every other vehicle. If you don't use it correctly, you lose resources. It keeps the game from having extremely strong vehicles spammed for one, and ensures that only people who know what they are doing use them.

I'm a Galaxy pilot, and not for the glory, that's for sure. I do it for the results.
Did you read my idea linked on the previous page? Reiterated it allows a player to walk up to a terminal and choose to customize a vehicle for their squad or another player. After they hit purchase they are put into a queue. When the other player walks up to the terminal they will be presented with the same screen but on the right side they can choose to chip in on the vehicle of the other player and will spawn with the other player. This can be locked to outfit, squad, friends, or open to the public. A player cannot be kicked from the vehicle and if they get out, they have the ability to kick anyone out of the vehicle because they are a part owner.

So if a stock vehicle is 200 resources and someone upgrades their galaxy with 3 awesome AA guns and extra flares for 300 resources extra the pilot might not be anywhere close to that resource. So they can choose to use the Vehicle Terminal Negotiation System (VTNS) to quickly apply funds for each seat in the vehicle if a player want to use that seat. (These can be saved if a squad has a favorite loadout).

This is the most effective way possible to manage cost systems and to get rid of freeloaders. If someone wants to gun my liberator they can chip in for that awesome cannon I upgraded and select their seat and pay the cost. A big part of this is community and trust and outfits. You can probably trust someone not to crash if they payed 200 resources for a vehicle and you only chipped in 100 probably. :lol:

[NCLynx]

Have it so outfit members can donate their resources to the outfit and an outfit can hold X amount of each resource. Anyone above Y rank can choose to use outfit resources to pull a vehicle instead of their own resources.

[Troscus]

I think you should just be able to trade resources. Between friends:

Gal driver: "Oh, man I don't have enough of blehbleblah to pay for the galaxy."

LA friend: "It's cool, I got a ton I'm not using, have some."

GD: "Sweet, I'll pay you back later."

Not friends, stranger:

Gal Driver : (Same as above)

Stranger: "Whatever, have some and get me there."

It works out fine.

[Turdicus]

Complicated stuff

There isn't a need to water down the value of an expensive item or vehicle by introducing unnecessary mechanics that would only serve to confuse and slow down gameplay. Galaxies and Sunderers will (very likely) give xp for every person it transports, for everyone who gets a kill with the turrets, and, for the galaxy, for everyone who spawns on it and resupplies with it. That is plenty of incentive to spawn a transport.

No matter whats on your galaxy the real determination of whether that vehicle lives or dies lies in the pilots decisions. If you have a sundy or a gal setup to be a combat oriented vehicle, then its most likely you will have trusted friends or outfit members gun that vehicle for you anyway, and they won't be the feared freeloader type. If your vehicle is a transport, the guns on the side might keep you alive for a teensy bit longer, but really its the driving that will bring the vehicle to safety. XP is gained for resources spent, and it is up to the driver to make the best use of those resources. Therefore the driver should be the one paying. Nothing complicated about it :rolleyes:

[Sirisian]

There isn't a need to water down the value of an expensive item or vehicle by introducing unnecessary mechanics that would only serve to confuse and slow down gameplay.
It's actually a rather trivial UI system, so if it seems complex it might be because of how I'm explaining it. You could still purchase the vehicle yourself, but it allows vehicles to be better equipped with multiple players. For instance, with tanks. (It really does help if it includes my other idea. Allowing a vehicle to go beyond 20% power threshold with upgrades or the costs doesn't make sense if you can pull another vehicle for the same benefit).
(Right click -> view image) Basic concept I just created. I find it intuitive, but I'm sure it can be made even more obvious with pictures of the type of resource next to the cost. I just didn't copy and past the icon. The person purchasing the vehicle just increments the other spots if they want to and hits queue. (Like I said they could save it with a loadout if they wanted to or have it remember). To join a vehicle (pretend your squadmate just put one up) you just hit join. Simple. I think.
http://i.imgur.com/AiZsR.jpg