Higby/Devs: PS2 Linux + Steam Q's

[Trevellian]

This is more of a curious question than anything else, hoping that Higby or any of the other Dev's are able to answer this question and aren't barred from stating a yes or no.

Question1: With all of SOE's other games that are F2P being released on Steam in the past few years, i.e. DC Online, EQ1 and EQ2 among others. What are the chances of there being a Planetside 2 steam client?

Question 2: With the news from valve that there will be a Linux Steam client coming out by the end of the year (or in Valve time, by the end of 2013). Will you be considering a Linux client? I feel like Valve creating the Steam client for Linux brings PC gaming one step closer to being able to ditch Windows OS at some point. I would love to see a Linux Planetside 2 Client to go along with the Steam Linux Client. Please, help to bring about the end of Microsofts monopoly on the PC community.

[Zulthus]

No news on Steam really except I think they said they'd like to see it on there at some point.

So few people use Linux compared to Windows/Mac I wouldn't really see the point... besides, it has terrible support for many programs/games and usually needs an emulator... to fix this problem, install Windows 7 or Mac to play PS2 (assuming they make a mac client, a reasonable assumption)

-Also, Windows will never be ditched; it is by far the most user friendly and compatible OS for anything and everything. Linux is really just for programmers and servers.

[Goyo]

This is more of a curious question than anything else, hoping that Higby or any of the other Dev's are able to answer this question and aren't barred from stating a yes or no.

Question1: With all of SOE's other games that are F2P being released on Steam in the past few years, i.e. DC Online, EQ1 and EQ2 among others. What are the chances of there being a Planetside 2 steam client?

Question 2: With the news from valve that there will be a Linux Steam client coming out by the end of the year (or in Valve time, by the end of 2013). Will you be considering a Linux client? I feel like Valve creating the Steam client for Linux brings PC gaming one step closer to being able to ditch Windows OS at some point. I would love to see a Linux Planetside 2 Client to go along with the Steam Linux Client. Please, help to bring about the end of Microsofts monopoly on the PC community.

Develop a direct X api substitute for linux and I am sure most PC developers would gladly make a linux client.

Sadly, until then, linux and gaming will not be friends.

[Rbstr]

#1 you seem to have answered for yourself. They've been putting them on Steam, they seem to have success with it. Why wouldn't they put PS2 on it?

#2 Mac seems far and away the more likely port.

[zomg]

I recall seeing someone say that the Planetside 2 engine uses DirectX, which pretty much means that Linux and OS X users are screwed.

The devs would need to implement a rendering engine on top of OpenGL in order to support this, which could be a very major revamp.

Develop a direct X api substitute for linux and I am sure most PC developers would gladly make a linux client.

It's called OpenGL ;) Now, I'm not a game graphics expert, so I can't really say why more devs aren't using OpenGL rather than DirectX.

[Goyo]

I recall seeing someone say that the Planetside 2 engine uses DirectX, which pretty much means that Linux and OS X users are screwed.

The devs would need to implement a rendering engine on top of OpenGL in order to support this, which could be a very major revamp.



It's called OpenGL ;) Now, I'm not a game graphics expert, so I can't really say why more devs aren't using OpenGL rather than DirectX.

id software were the only major dev team pushing it and that was a long time ago. I am sure there are reasons they gave up on it.

[GreatMazinkaise]

It's called OpenGL ;) Now, I'm not a game graphics expert, so I can't really say why more devs aren't using OpenGL rather than DirectX.

Follow the Microsoft money trail and you shall find your answer.

[Trevellian]

No news on Steam really except I think they said they'd like to see it on there at some point.

So few people use Linux compared to Windows/Mac I wouldn't really see the point... besides, it has terrible support for many programs/games and usually needs an emulator... to fix this problem, install Windows 7 or Mac to play PS2 (assuming they make a mac client, a reasonable assumption)

-Also, Windows will never be ditched; it is by far the most user friendly and compatible OS for anything and everything. Linux is really just for programmers and servers.


I run Windows 7 64bit. However I also have Linux on the system to dual boot and fix problems. I'd just like to see more developers support Linux in the future so that PC users can move away from Microsoft, especially with Valve supporting Linux which seems like a very good first step in that direction. I do not support what Microsoft is doing with Win8 and Metro.

[zomg]

id software were the only major dev team pushing it and that was a long time ago. I am sure there are reasons they gave up on it.

Follow the Microsoft money trail and you shall find your answer.

Now that you mention id software... although I cannot remember the exact sources, I do recall John Carmack saying that Microsoft is actually the one innovating when it comes to graphics rendering technologies, and that OpenGL is simply coming afterwards implementing what MS did first. That would mean that by using DirectX, devs would have better options in utilizing the latest rendering tech.

[CutterJohn]

Now that you mention id software... although I cannot remember the exact sources, I do recall John Carmack saying that Microsoft is actually the one innovating when it comes to graphics rendering technologies, and that OpenGL is simply coming afterwards implementing what MS did first. That would mean that by using DirectX, devs would have better options in utilizing the latest rendering tech.

Which is sensible, considering all the business it brings them. The very last thing they want is a viable competitor to directx.

Otoh, considering their inability to make GFWL anything less than a turd calls that statement into question...

[Bags]

Higby is all for it, but T-ray was really hoping they'd have their own version of steam, and after seeing origin flop I hope that doesn't happen.

[Zulthus]

I run Windows 7 64bit. However I also have Linux on the system to dual boot and fix problems. I'd just like to see more developers support Linux in the future so that PC users can move away from Microsoft, especially with Valve supporting Linux which seems like a very good first step in that direction. I do not support what Microsoft is doing with Win8 and Metro.

Agreeable that Microsoft are failures for targeting the tablet audience with windows 8, but still, Windows 7 is pretty much perfect right now. Personally I don't see the point of moving away from it, at least at the current time.

[Goyo]

Higby is all for it, but T-ray was really hoping they'd have their own version of steam, and after seeing origin flop I hope that doesn't happen.

I do not see why each developer/distributor cannot emulate steam. Why can't each developer/distributor offer thier own Direct download store attached to their product main site that has a database of which users have purchased which products and allow the user to re-download the game/software that has already been purchased? I see no reason they need to try to replace steam. Just make the purchase/install/reinsall as painless as possible.

Edit: that point is moot for PS2 as it is free to play.

[zomg]

I do not see why each developer/distributor cannot emulate steam. Why can't each developer/distributor offer thier own Direct download store attached to their product main site that has a database of which users have purchased which products and allow the user to re-download the game/software that has already been purchased? I see no reason they need to try to replace steam. Just make the purchase/install/reinsall as painless as possible.

Edit: that point is moot for PS2 as it is free to play.

The logistics involved in creating something like that which is reliable is kind of tricky :) Easier to just piggyback off someone else who has already done the work for you.

[Furber]

I like the idea of it being advertised on Steam just because Steam is so popular. They've actually done a better job advertising the game so far than I thought they would have, Steam would push it even further into the public spotlight.

[Inverness]

I like the idea of it being advertised on Steam just because Steam is so popular. They've actually done a better job advertising the game so far than I thought they would have, Steam would push it even further into the public spotlight.
I agree with this. PlanetSide suffered from a great lack of advertisement, PlanetSide 2 should not. Steam will help it reach a large audience.

[Envenom]

Linux? Lol. It will be on Mac 10 million times faster than Linux.

[super pretendo]

If developing for linux takes any serious resources I can't see a point, since anyone can just have a dual boot of linux and windows.

[CuddlyChud]

I dunno much about steams business policies, but I think its probably up in the air right now whether or not PS2 will be on steam. I've been reading that a couple f2p games aren't going to be on Steam anytime soon because of something to do with their business policies (GW2 and Firefall).

Also, SOE already has Station Launcher, which is kind of like Steam for station games. And since its f2p and download, really Steam would just be for advertising, in which case maybe the money SOE would have to pay to steam would be better spent with just direct advertisement.

[cybercrafted]

Higby is all for it, but T-ray was really hoping they'd have their own version of steam, and after seeing origin flop I hope that doesn't happen.

“We’ve got 12 million downloads of the application. We have 50 partners: independent game developers and publishers who are publishing on the platform. We’ve generated over $150 million in revenue, which represents huge growth on a percentage basis versus the previous year. In every numerical dimension it was a huge success!” -Origin’s Senior Vice President of E-Commerce, David DeMartini

[Novacane]

I too like the idea of having it on Steam, would probably encourage people that wouldn't normally see it to be exposed to it.

As far as linux or mac. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it would violate legal agreements that SOE might have, to develop on Windows, to release on a freeware OS. Mac OS is just a pretty GUI on top of a linux kernel that you have to pay for. If you can run it on windows and don't use windows specific APIs or libraries (DirectX, anything in the Windows SDK, etc..) you can port it to what ever platform you want. However, I do remember somewhere during E3 it was mentioned that they would be using DirectX so, it's highly unlikely that you will see it on anything other than Windows without using 3rd party software like Wine.

[indirect]

I dunno much about steams business policies, but I think its probably up in the air right now whether or not PS2 will be on steam. I've been reading that a couple f2p games aren't going to be on Steam anytime soon because of something to do with their business policies (GW2 and Firefall).

Also, SOE already has Station Launcher, which is kind of like Steam for station games. And since its f2p and download, really Steam would just be for advertising, in which case maybe the money SOE would have to pay to steam would be better spent with just direct advertisement.

You need to take into account EQ2 and DCUO are already on Steam, as well as Battleforge and Magic: Tactics (SOE run)

[DoomBlackDragon]

I think they will put PS2 on steam at one point. Still I would use the one on their website. Nothing worse then having steam running in the back ground of an mmo.

With Linux getting more and more support and people cracking games to run on linux. I would be more then happy to switch over to Linux. Windows is for fools. Linux is better then windows on every level. It just lacks the support needed for me to switch over.

[zomg]

As far as linux or mac. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it would violate legal agreements that SOE might have, to develop on Windows, to release on a freeware OS. Mac OS is just a pretty GUI on top of a linux kernel that you have to pay for. If you can run it on windows and don't use windows specific APIs or libraries (DirectX, anything in the Windows SDK, etc..) you can port it to what ever platform you want. However, I do remember somewhere during E3 it was mentioned that they would be using DirectX so, it's highly unlikely that you will see it on anything other than Windows without using 3rd party software like Wine.

OS X is actually based on BSD, which is in turn based on UNIX. Linux is essentially a "UNIX-compatible" OS. Otherwise you are quite correct :)


Windows is for fools. Linux is better then windows on every level. It just lacks the support needed for me to switch over.

Said like a true believer of lord Linus the Christ of computing :lol: If it is lacking the support needed, then I would say that is a level where it is not better than Windows. Of course you have the right to your opinion of it :)

[kaffis]

I do not see why each developer/distributor cannot emulate steam. Why can't each developer/distributor offer thier own Direct download store attached to their product main site that has a database of which users have purchased which products and allow the user to re-download the game/software that has already been purchased? I see no reason they need to try to replace steam. Just make the purchase/install/reinsall as painless as possible.

Edit: that point is moot for PS2 as it is free to play.
There's no reason why each developer/distributor *cannot* emulate Steam.

There are several reasons why doing so would not be likely to garner them success.

A few of the shortest, punchiest, and most memorable ones, in no particular order, are:
1. People like having their games in one place, rather than spread across fifty accounts.
2. Many people are (rightfully) wary of creating new accounts with various services, particularly when there's a transfer of money involved. The prevalence of data breaching activities and the increased media profile of such events over the last few years has lead to people being more information/identity/security conscious.
3. Making a quality digital distribution platform is hard. Anybody can set up an FTP site. Making a client and service that offer value to the customer is much more involved, and everybody's playing catchup to Valve in that department.
4. Lots of people have very warm, gushy feelings about Valve as a company. Many game distributors do not. Few game developers have the resources to cut out the distributor and develop their own complex platform (see #3 above)


In any event, on the subject of Linux/OSX support for Planetside 2 -- consider that it's essentially re-writing 50% of the engine code from scratch, at the very least. The migration from DirectX to OpenGL is anything but trivial. The very thing that makes these APIs useful is how deeply integrated they become with your code, making it faster and leaner. In order to write API-agnostic code, you'd essentially be adding an entirely new abstraction layer into your code, slowing it down and crippling it enormously.

[Bags]

“We’ve got 12 million downloads of the application. We have 50 partners: independent game developers and publishers who are publishing on the platform. We’ve generated over $150 million in revenue, which represents huge growth on a percentage basis versus the previous year. In every numerical dimension it was a huge success!” -Origin’s Senior Vice President of E-Commerce, David DeMartini

Everyone on the internet hates it. I wouldn't have gotten BF3 through origin if it was on steam.

[CuddlyChud]

You need to take into account EQ2 and DCUO are already on Steam, as well as Battleforge and Magic: Tactics (SOE run)

And Guild Wars 1 is on Steam but apparently Guild Wars 2 won't be. All I'm saying is that Planetside 2 being on Steam isn't a sure thing and there may or may not be good reasons for it not being on Steam.

[zomg]

Everyone on the internet hates it. I wouldn't have gotten BF3 through origin if it was on steam.

Mostly for no reason though. It has crummy UI, but when you don't even need to touch it to play BF3... People just cry because they want to cry about something.

Steam was pretty awful when it was as new as Origin is. Much worse than Origin is now ;)

For the record, I would have gotten BF3 via Steam as well.

[Bags]

Mostly for no reason though. It has crummy UI, but when you don't even need to touch it to play BF3... People just cry because they want to cry about something.

Steam was pretty awful when it was as new as Origin is. Much worse than Origin is now ;)

Was steam's TOS/EULA as controversial as Origin's?

[zomg]

Was steam's TOS/EULA as controversial as Origin's?

No idea. Back then nobody was paying as much attention on things like that as people are now :D Probably not though.

Still, I feel it was blown completely out of proportion by a few loudmouths. And internet loves a good lynching.

[Novacane]

Said like a true believer of lord Linus the Christ of computing :lol: If it is lacking the support needed, then I would say that is a level where it is not better than Windows. Of course you have the right to your opinion of it :)

HAHA

I was a die-hard Windows fanboi until I tried out Ubuntu recently. Now it's on all the machines in my house other than my gaming rig. Seamless compatibility between the two OSs and just as capable for everything except running games but, it boots faster and is far easier to get it to do what you want, if you know how to do it. For just using the internet and word processing, like what most people use their computer for, it's no different, as far as ease of use goes, than windows.

It isn't that *nix systems are lacking support, it's that developers find it easier (because that is what most of them are taught to use) to use windows libraries rather than finding open source or cross-platform propriety ones that do the same job and can be compiled against more than one OS.

However, Direct3D is miles ahead of OpenGL as far as bells an whistles go. And everyone knows eye-candy is very important to the modern AAA title.

[Trafalgar]

There's also that ATI and Intel don't seem to much like OpenGL, and ATI doesn't even seem to care how well OpenGL works with its cards. Either that or it must have almost no resources devoted to it.

[Novacane]

There's also that ATI and Intel don't seem to much like OpenGL, and ATI doesn't even seem to care how well OpenGL works with its cards. Either that or it must have almost no resources devoted to it.

I don't know about ATI but NVIDIA works with developers to find out what rendering processes they use most and optimizes their drivers to do those tasks faster (and probably vise verse too)

When I used ATI, I always used 3rd party drivers but, that was back in 2004 so I don't know if any still exist since they were acquired by AMD. The 3rd party drivers were always more stable and almost always faster than the stock ones you got from the ATI site. I've been using NVIDIA ever since which is why I can't really say anything about it other than that.

If it doesn't run on windows and it has video hardware acceleration, it probably uses OpenGL so I'd say that if they don't have resources for optimizing it, they are going to fall behind.

[Dagron]

Being at the mercy of one company is never a good thing, be it MS or Valve.

For instance: MS can do whatever it wants and people are forced to swallow it. I'm not saying linux is the answer to all our problems, but if there was another decent gaming friendly OS out there (mac may be slowly getting there), us users would see more love because the companies would forever be trying to win us over as opposed to what happens today when they basically just say "release the new OS with whatever crap we want, it's not like those suckers have much choice... and while we're at it, also charge whatever we want, mwahahahaha".

That said, i do support the idea of a person "storing" every game they own into one place like Steam, and i'd hate to have 50 steam-like platforms in my PC, but you have to agree that some competition would make things a litte better for the consumers.
However i have to point out that so far i still haven't had any reasons to complain about Steam in that regard... their frequent offering of deals (probably because while Steam is owned by one company, it's theoretically open to all others) makes me feel more cherished as a loyal customer than any other company has made me feel so far.



... since its f2p and download, really Steam would just be for advertising, in which case maybe the money SOE would have to pay to steam would be better spent with just direct advertisement.

Would it be better? We don't know how much more or less expensive would using Steam for advertisement be, compared to how much direct advertisement would cost to reach as many people. You have to take into account that steam is very popular.

And Guild Wars 1 is on Steam but apparently Guild Wars 2 won't be. All I'm saying is that Planetside 2 being on Steam isn't a sure thing and there may or may not be good reasons for it not being on Steam.

Just because someone else is doing it, it doesn't necessarily means it's a good idea for them.
But true, there may or may not be good reasons, we don't know what they might be. :p



Also, QFT:
There's no reason why each developer/distributor *cannot* emulate Steam.

There are several reasons why doing so would not be likely to garner them success.

A few of the shortest, punchiest, and most memorable ones, in no particular order, are:
1. People like having their games in one place, rather than spread across fifty accounts.
2. Many people are (rightfully) wary of creating new accounts with various services, particularly when there's a transfer of money involved. The prevalence of data breaching activities and the increased media profile of such events over the last few years has lead to people being more information/identity/security conscious.
3. Making a quality digital distribution platform is hard. Anybody can set up an FTP site. Making a client and service that offer value to the customer is much more involved, and everybody's playing catchup to Valve in that department.
4. Lots of people have very warm, gushy feelings about Valve as a company. Many game distributors do not. Few game developers have the resources to cut out the distributor and develop their own complex platform (see #3 above)

I like the idea of it being advertised on Steam just because Steam is so popular. They've actually done a better job advertising the game so far than I thought they would have, Steam would push it even further into the public spotlight.

Everyone on the internet hates [Origin]. I wouldn't have gotten BF3 through origin if it was on steam.

[Sensator]

Competition is good for consumers like us, so be glad Origin succeeded--it means that Valve will have to keep up their game.

As for PS2 on Steam? I'd say it's very likely.

[Pella]

Microsoft and steam make things convenient for online gamers.

Unless someone else comes along with a better idea. Developers and gamers will ride the wave.

[indirect]

And Guild Wars 1 is on Steam but apparently Guild Wars 2 won't be. All I'm saying is that Planetside 2 being on Steam isn't a sure thing and there may or may not be good reasons for it not being on Steam.

Guild Wars 2 has NEVER been noted to not be coming to Steam.

[Sabot]

As long as they _NEVER_ make some deal with EA regarding distrubution I'll be happy tbh. But I don't think EA will want to touch a F2P game with 10 foot pliers. Greedy sob's *mumble mumble*...

And yes, as someone pointed out... remember Steam when it first launched? It was waaay worse than Origin. You regularly wanted to stab whoever came up with it.... But now it's absolutely great and I think it'd be very good PR to have the game on steam.

[Nemises]

apparently Steams policy on after market sales / micro transactions is a bit grabby.

Why should SOE share the profits just to use Steam anyway?

look at Tribes:ascend...has it's own integrated client / logon / management / auto patcher and shop...and that way they arent restricted by Steams grabby grabbyness and patch deployment shenanigans..

Steams alleged grabbyness / policies are just my interpretation of other conversations I've seen on various game forums, and are not based on any hard research on my part so..feel free to dis if incorrect..

[ChipMHazard]

Still, I feel it was blown completely out of proportion by a few loudmouths. And internet loves a good lynching.

Indeed it was, especially considering that no EULA/TOS can supersede actual laws and regulations.
Personally I would much rather have all DLC/social game services be completely optional requirements, but them's the breaks as it were.

I have no idea how Steam handle their cuts with F2P games. I don't see Valve taking a cut out of ingame items bought via stationcash, so I would guess Sony will simply be paying Valve to allow PS2 to be distributed through Steam.

[TerranTitan]

I'd like it to be on Steam, I'd love it if the game used VAC Anti Cheat. PS1 suffered from a lack of advertising, yes, but it was also 2003. Most people didn't have computers then, and the internet especially. Now every tom, dick, and harry has a PC and internet.

PS2 will be alot more popular. If it got on Steam, the growth would be 5x higher than if it were stand alone. That's just my .02 cents.

[Stew]

I hope the game will be fully integrated with steam with will make the game more popular because as we can see many people dont even know planetside 2 even existe i always have to do some marketing stuff to let people know the game is actually awesome and will be out soon !

Almost every body i play whith exept my few ps1 vets friends dont even know the game exist at all !

So having steam to make it even more popular is the best moove they can make !

[Stew]

I'd like it to be on Steam, I'd love it if the game used VAC Anti Cheat. PS1 suffered from a lack of advertising, yes, but it was also 2003. Most people didn't have computers then, and the internet especially. Now every tom, dick, and harry has a PC and internet.

PS2 will be alot more popular. If it got on Steam, the growth would be 5x higher than if it were stand alone. That's just my .02 cents.

Agree VAC»punk buster

[ChipMHazard]

Agree VAC»punk buster

Good thing that PS2 will be using neither.

[Rexdezi]

I'd like it to be on Steam, I'd love it if the game used VAC Anti Cheat. PS1 suffered from a lack of advertising, yes, but it was also 2003. Most people didn't have computers then, and the internet especially. Now every tom, dick, and harry has a PC and internet.

PS2 will be alot more popular. If it got on Steam, the growth would be 5x higher than if it were stand alone. That's just my .02 cents.

thats your 5000th of a cent? I thought it was 2 cents personally but if you want to be stingy and have only .02 of a cent then sure if you like....

[Chefkoch]

I agree with this. PlanetSide suffered from a great lack of advertisement, PlanetSide 2 should not. Steam will help it reach a large audience.

This..Steam is gods end for F2P Games ! Cant hurt the game can it ?

[Dagron]

I thought it was 2 cents personally but if you want to be stingy and have only .02 of a cent then sure if you like....

Smartass! :lol:

[Nemises]

This..Steam is gods end for F2P Games ! Cant hurt the game can it ?

It will definately reach a larger audience, but at what expence?

SOE would have to hand over much of the control (when to patch for eg), and much of the transactional profit of micro-transactions to a 3rd party.

Alse, I understand steam have a restrictive policy on after market / in game "shops" , which is pretty core to PS2 / F2P in general.

..so the ONLY real benefit is one of marketing to a larger audience..

..based on the E3 success though, it seems like it might just be OK from a marketing perspective ;)

[Dagron]

SOE would have to hand over much of the control (when to patch for eg), and much of the transactional profit of micro-transactions to a 3rd party.

I'm not sure what are Steam's policies on those issues, but they'd be fools to make all sort of restrictions that discouraged people from hosting their games in there.

Think about it, what would be better for Steam: to gain a little less money for hosting and advertising a game without getting a share of every transaction, or gaining nothing because their restrictions made it a bad deal for the game's developers?

Personally i'd go with the first option. Not only the developer's "hosting subscription" money is better than nothing, but it's also more people getting their pop-up advertisements (when the game's client closes).
Before the people who haven't seen it start to complain: i'm usually against pop-ups, but those don't bother me at all because you only get them once in a while (maybe 1/week i think), and only when you're done playing anyway.

[Malorn]

I would love to see a Linux Planetside 2 Client to go along with the Steam Linux Client. Please, help to bring about the end of Microsofts monopoly on the PC community.

I LOL'd.

SOE is a business, and selling operating systems isn't what they do. They have no interest in changing the PC ecosystem. They have a difficult enough time dealing with compatibility of all the different types of PC hardware, so doubling their test matrix and dealing with the same hardware on two different operating systems doesn't seem like a smart move. If there were fewer PCs running Windows that would hurt their business because they would have to maintain multiple operating systems on top of all the different hardware configurations they have today. For them, the more people running Windows the larger their customer base and the easier it is for them to deliver a high quality product.

Next is the gain they'd get from supporting Linux - more potential customers. In order for this to work out they would have to have enough new customers and revenue from them to significantly offset the above testing and support costs they incur with the new operating system. The only people running Linux are some datacenters and rebellious CS students. The population is very low so there isn't much money there. I went through the Anti-Microsoft phase too. You'll get over it when you realize that app compatibility and simplicity is a good thing, and when you start making real software products you'll really appreciate the large target ecosystem.

If they were going to support a new operating system, it wouldn't be Linux, it would be Mac OS. Mac is your best hope hurting the Evil Empire, though you may find the cure is worse than the disease on that when you pay twice as much for the same hardware. With Microsoft the OEMs compete with each other to drive PC prices down. That's a good thing for us. Apple doesn't do that, which his why they have such huge profit margins - they shaft their customers.

In time I think you'll find that the Evil Empire isn't so evil. At least not compared to a few other empires...

[Dagron]

Don't get me wrong, i'm not defending linux specifically, i just wish i wasn't forced to use windows to play games today instead of two years from their release (i'm looking at you Mac).


I went through the Anti-Microsoft phase too. You'll get over it when you realize that app compatibility and simplicity is a good thing, and when you start making real software products you'll really appreciate the large target ecosystem.

In time I think you'll find that the Evil Empire isn't so evil. At least not compared to a few other empires...

It's a good thing for software developers, but not for the consumers. It's like you said:

With Microsoft the OEMs compete with each other to drive PC prices down. That's a good thing for us.

It would be a better thing for us if they also had some real competition of their own, so their OS and it's basic stuff wouldn't be so damn overpriced.
Of course that would require this competition not to mess up the app compatibility and simplicity issue, and i know that's not going to happen... but we can dream, can't we?

In the end i agree with you: a company doesn't have any incentive to meddle in that affair, specially if it's going to be extra work for no benefit. But if we (the consumers) don't whine about it, who will? Hey, maybe some day in a million years it might get us somewhere. :p

[Malorn]

It's a good thing for software developers, but not for the consumers.

It is good for consumers because the quality of the product can be higher, and it will take less time to develop.


It would be a better thing for us if they also had some real competition of their own, so their OS and it's basic stuff wouldn't be so damn overpriced.
The OS really isn't over-priced, but if you go to a software store and try to buy it off the shelf you aren't getting the volume discounts that OEMs get. If you buy a PC from a manufacturer Windows costs quite a bit less. If you try to make your own PC and buy Windows separately then you're going to pay more. It has to be that way to add value to volume purchasing. Very few of the sales come from individuals buying Windows all by itself. The bulk comes from manufacturers and businesses buying it in large volumes, but at a much lower price per copy.

Also keep in mind that we PC gamers are not typical consumers and the PC industry isn't catering to us. We're a drop in the bucket to them not worth a high investment. We're niche consumers who want high end hardware for an expensive entertainment hobby. There are cheaper alternatives for us, but we dont' like them because that means lower gaming performance. We could get decent performance for a reasonable price - but we don't want decent. We want awesome. At some point we simply have to accept that our hobby isn't cheap.

[Oryon22]

Having this game on Steam would pay dividends for SOE.

[Dagron]

If you buy a PC from a manufacturer Windows costs quite a bit less. If you try to make your own PC and buy Windows separately then you're going to pay more.

True, i always try to make my own PC, because frankly the premades suck. I guess that proves your point:

We could get decent performance for a reasonable price - but we don't want decent. We want awesome. At some point we simply have to accept that our hobby isn't cheap.

:lol:

Also keep in mind that we PC gamers are not typical consumers and the PC industry isn't catering to us. We're a drop in the bucket to them not worth a high investment.

I suppose the bucket is mostly composed by companies that need workstations and the like... it's just hard to admit that the final destination of the majority of PCs are the desks of people who mostly just check their e-mails for lolcats and stare at facebook all day pretending to work. :p

[Malorn]

Heh yep, you get what you pay for.

I'm at the point where I don't much care to build my own and would rather contract someone to do it or buy a gaming PC. Quite a bit more expensive but not having to deal with broken parts dealing with shipping and hardware compatibility. Paying for convenience but I've reached the point in life where paying for convenience isn't a bad thing to me as long as it's reasonable and I'm not getting completely shafted.

[wasdie]

If Planetside 2 is an OpenGL game then we may see a Linux or Mac version, but if it's a DirectX game (which it most likely is), we'll never see a Linux or Mac version.

Some people here want to see an end to Microsoft's domination of the PC market for gamers, but you all ignore that Microsoft is one of the biggest contributes to PC gaming. Without DirectX there wouldn't be PC gaming to the levels we have it today. OpenGL is a poor alternative as it's not nearly as supported as DirectX. DirectX is constantly updated and highly supported by Microsoft. On the OpenGL front, Nvidia and AMD don't have the greatest support and engines rarely adapt OpenGL because there is no real source to go for direct support for the code, which is a huge deal for software development, especially if you're dropping 10 million into developing a new graphics engine.

ID pushes the OpenGL front but they are about it, and their engines aren't even open to the public. As graphics become more and more complex, the reliance by full 3rd party game engines is going to keep increasing as development costs go up. This means less in-house developed engines. Since most game engines use DirectX as their primary renderer, don't expect OpenGL to take any more of the environment.

[Hyperz]

If Planetside 2 is an OpenGL game then we may see a Linux or Mac version, but if it's a DirectX game (which it most likely is), we'll never see a Linux or Mac version.

Some people here want to see an end to Microsoft's domination of the PC market for gamers, but you all ignore that Microsoft is one of the biggest contributes to PC gaming. Without DirectX there wouldn't be PC gaming to the levels we have it today. OpenGL is a poor alternative as it's not nearly as supported as DirectX. DirectX is constantly updated and highly supported by Microsoft. On the OpenGL front, Nvidia and AMD don't have the greatest support and engines rarely adapt OpenGL because there is no real source to go for direct support for the code, which is a huge deal for software development, especially if you're dropping 10 million into developing a new graphics engine.

ID pushes the OpenGL front but they are about it, and their engines aren't even open to the public. As graphics become more and more complex, the reliance by full 3rd party game engines is going to keep increasing as development costs go up. This means less in-house developed engines. Since most game engines use DirectX as their primary renderer, don't expect OpenGL to take any more of the environment.

Whether or not the game uses OpenGL or not is irrelevant for a potential *nix port. What's far more important is whether or not the engine was build with graphics API abstraction in mind. If it was then adding OpenGL/Direct3D support is a just a matter of adding a "bit" of code. If not then it would mean half of the engine would have to be modified. How else do you think multi-platform titles go about using all the different API's of consoles, mobile devices and OS's? If the engine was build with multi-platform in mind then it's not such a big deal. And porting from Windows to *nix is a way smaller step than going from PC -> console (or the other way around).

As for OpenGL vs DirectX (although you should really compare OGL vs D3D), that's pretty much a non-issue today, especially after OGL 3.x. DirectX being responsible for how PC gaming turned out is also not true. If anything, OGL holds that title because the first 3D games were all using OGL or GLide (based on OGL). Also MS has done nothing but DAMAGE PC gaming since they brought along XBox. AMD/NV's OGL drivers not being on to par is just a side effect of MS's monopolie.

[kaffis]

Competition is good for consumers like us, so be glad Origin succeeded--it means that Valve will have to keep up their game.

As for PS2 on Steam? I'd say it's very likely.
The problem with citing Origin as "competition" for Steam is that the competition only works when you're not talking exclusives for one or the other.

EA is a huge distributor, in control of a vast catalog of games and developers. Since releasing Origin, none of those games have shown up on competing digital distribution services, or, if they have, they require the installation of Origin anyways for the microtransaction/matchmaking integration.

Thus, Origin doesn't compete on price/services, since those games are only available at one outlet, or completely disconnect themselves from the services of competitors in order to just fire up the Origin services instead.

Now, that's not to say that Valve is innocent of the same charges. But their stable of games is vastly smaller -- when you complain about Valve exclusives, you're talking maybe a dozen titles, most of which start with "Half-Life" or "Portal." And, despite not having to compete on price, those still see regular sales and price cuts. Not so with EA's catalog of Origin exclusives.

As for Steam and F2P microtransactions/DLC and their cut... It's my understanding that Valve's cut is pretty reasonable; enough so that many independent developers have stated the magnitude of their preference for Steam distribution over traditional distributors/publishers. That includes some Free to Play games. It is also my understanding that Valve has a requirement that any DLC/microtransactions offered for a game must be offered as well through their own payment system. This is likely why EA pulled their content from Steam -- they've been moving towards DLC in the first place to cut out the retail/Valve middleman and their cut of the profits, so allowing Valve to have a piece of the DLC pie goes against their business strategy that drove them to DLC in the first place. Fair enough, even though I think it's a shitty result for the customer.

SOE, however, appears to be satisfied with its arrangements with Valve in such respects, as the presence of other F2P SOE games suggests. If I'm able to buy Station Cash through Steam, I'm more likely to do so, since it will be more convenient. Why will it be more convenient? Because Steam is one of the web sites I've entrusted in the past with payment information, and feel comfortable doing so again. I haven't given my current credit card info to SOE, and would be disinclined to do so (in the near future, at least), so if I can't get Station Cash through Steam, I have to remember to do so when I visit a retail establishment that sells Station Cash Cards or whatever they're called. Either way, I'm opting to go a route that I consider more private, but which involves a third party in the transaction. It's unfortunate (from SOE's perspective) that this incurs a margin for that third party, but considering that it results in my increased comfort and security in purchasing Station Cash... it probably ends up a net win for them anyways.



Finally, one thing I forgot to point out with #2 in my earlier post -- the point about security and giving out identifying information to make accounts and whatnot. MMOs are an edge-case in this discussion, since they require account information *anyways.* It's worth mentioning, and I forgot to include it.

[Rbstr]

Also keep in mind that we PC gamers are not typical consumers and the PC industry isn't catering to us. We're a drop in the bucket to them not worth a high investment. We're niche consumers who want high end hardware for an expensive entertainment hobby. There are cheaper alternatives for us, but we dont' like them because that means lower gaming performance. We could get decent performance for a reasonable price - but we don't want decent. We want awesome. At some point we simply have to accept that our hobby isn't cheap.

This is a common problem with Car people too. Everybody seems to think that car companies are doing it wrong because they don't make cars enthusiasts want.

That actuality is that normal people don't want what enthusiasts want. That's why the iPod and Corolla are so popular.

[SpLiTNuTz]

Would some one please ask higby if you can buy removable of class helmets in the cash shop?

Obviously not for infiltrators or maxes but for LA MA HA classes.

[Malorn]

Would some one please ask higby if you can buy for removable of class helmets in the cash shop?

You buy Higby Hair, or a Tramell Hat.

[kaffis]

You buy Higby Hair, or a Tramell Hat.
Is the Higby Hair pre- or post-beta?

[Oryon22]

Would some one please ask higby if you can buy removable of class helmets in the cash shop?

Obviously not for infiltrators or maxes but for LA MA HA classes.

Imma call him up brb

[dyslecix]

Develop a direct X api substitute for linux and I am sure most PC developers would gladly make a linux client.

Sadly, until then, linux and gaming will not be friends.

Screw direct X, opengl is wayyyy better.

[Falcbe]

This is more of a curious question than anything else, hoping that Higby or any of the other Dev's are able to answer this question and aren't barred from stating a yes or no.

Question1: With all of SOE's other games that are F2P being released on Steam in the past few years, i.e. DC Online, EQ1 and EQ2 among others. What are the chances of there being a Planetside 2 steam client?

Question 2: With the news from valve that there will be a Linux Steam client coming out by the end of the year (or in Valve time, by the end of 2013). Will you be considering a Linux client? I feel like Valve creating the Steam client for Linux brings PC gaming one step closer to being able to ditch Windows OS at some point. I would love to see a Linux Planetside 2 Client to go along with the Steam Linux Client. Please, help to bring about the end of Microsofts monopoly on the PC community.

still after everything, linux is not user friendly, and you do NOT want apple to be producing the primary os for PC. they plan to close up mac os completly like the ipad and iphone are. with as little flexibility and freedom to developers and end users as possible. and they want gaming to move to the ipad and away from the desktop

[SergeantNubins]

As this is a pc game, they would be pretty foolish to ignore steam, I think it is the largest single distributor of games, the most well established digital platform and best of all, it actually works. I dont think they should be tied to steam, but they should have the game listed on there as one of their market options.

[Trevellian]

still after everything, linux is not user friendly, and you do NOT want apple to be producing the primary os for PC. they plan to close up mac os completly like the ipad and iphone are. with as little flexibility and freedom to developers and end users as possible. and they want gaming to move to the ipad and away from the desktop

Not User Friendly? Have you ever played with Ubuntu? It's an amazingly clean and optimized interface. I'd far prefer to use it over Windows except for the small fact I can't play games without using a Windows emulator/shell program.

I am fully aware that Linux is not a viable OS for Gaming "currently". That is why with the revelation that Valve will be releasing a Steam Linux client, I was wondering if anyone was going to be utilizing it besides indie developers. And as SOE releases games on Steam, just made sense to me to ask the logical question of if they planned on doing either A. A Steam Client at All, or B. Not only on the Steam Client, but Linux to utilize the new Client.

Just thought it would be interesting.

[zomg]

I'm all for having games released on all platforms. However, something to consider is that it will increase the time-to-market if it needs to be developed with multiple platforms in mind.

Not User Friendly? Have you ever played with Ubuntu? It's an amazingly clean and optimized interface. I'd far prefer to use it over Windows except for the small fact I can't play games without using a Windows emulator/shell program.

Even though it is the same to anyone who is decent with computers, take a non-techy person who is used to Windows and put them in front of Ubuntu (or OS X, which is widely considered user friendly)... Even though they will still have the menus and all, they will be completely lost.

There is some science behind the reasons for this and it will cause people to perceive things as not being user friendly even though it might be.

I could go into a lot of details regarding this but it's probably a bit off topic for this thread :lol:

[Malorn]

Not User Friendly? Have you ever played with Ubuntu? It's an amazingly clean and optimized interface. I'd far prefer to use it over Windows except for the small fact I can't play games without using a Windows emulator/shell program.

I am fully aware that Linux is not a viable OS for Gaming "currently".

Ever wonder why Linux never took the world by storm? Because it isn't made for normal people. In the consumer space it is a computer nerd's toy - that's it. Most of the world is normal people which have little knowledge of how computers work or how to manage software packages with ubuntu. You are not a normal person. Computing products are not made for you. Linux is not made for normal people. Its interface is terrible not because it isn't efficient; it is terrible because normal people can't use it, it has terrible support, and it offers nothing to them that the things they are familiar with don't already have.

My wife could not use Linux, nor could my mother, grandfather, brother, or anyone else in my family. But they can all use Windows and/or Macs.

And it will never be viable for gaming. You can keep on wishing though. You'd be better off wishing or searching for UI makeovers for Windows. It won't happen on Mac, because Jobs knows what's best and if you disagree you're doing it wrong.

[zomg]

Ever wonder why Linux never took the world by storm? Because it isn't made for normal people. In the consumer space it is a computer nerd's toy - that's it. Most of the world is normal people which have little knowledge of how computers work or how to manage software packages with ubuntu. You are not a normal person. Computing products are not made for you. Linux is not made for normal people. Its interface is terrible not because it isn't efficient; it is terrible because normal people can't use it, it has terrible support, and it offers nothing to them that the things they are familiar with don't already have.

My wife could not use Linux, nor could my mother, grandfather, brother, or anyone else in my family. But they can all use Windows and/or Macs.

And it will never be viable for gaming. You can keep on wishing though. You'd be better off wishing or searching for UI makeovers for Windows. It won't happen on Mac, because Jobs knows what's best and if you disagree you're doing it wrong.

This may have been true some years ago but today's Linux is quite fine on desktop even for "normal people". It's just a matter of them getting used to it.

The reason your mom or bro has problems with it is because they have always used Windows and Linux is different from what they are used to - Not necessarily an indication of it being bad. Assuming they had always used Linux (let's pretend it was user friendly back in the day) they would not have problems with it :)

For the record, my mom was completely lost in OS X (which again is often thought as a user-friendly OS) although she can use Windows XP and Windows 7 just fine. I'm sure she could have handled it after getting used to it first though.

Also, I don't think Steve Jobs is disagreeing with anyone much lately ;)

(Of course there are those Linux distros which are for nerds and not exactly the prime example of user friendliness, but not all of them are like that)

[RadarX]

The current plan is to release PlanetSide 2 as a PC client. There are no plans for Linux at this time.

Steam? You never know. However right now our plans are to release through our own launcher.

This doesn't mean either of these will never happen, just not right now.

[Thoreaux]

Also, I don't think Steve Jobs is disagreeing with anyone much lately ;)

They've got his brain on a robot body, a la Futurama's Robo-Nixon.

Seriously, if it were anybody, it'd be Jobs.

[Hyperz]

The current plan is to release PlanetSide 2 as a PC client. There are no plans for Linux at this time.

Steam? You never know. However right now our plans are to release through our own launcher.

This doesn't mean either of these will never happen, just not right now.

Linux and Mac are as "PC" as Windows you know :p.

Anyway, I do hope somewhere down the road we get Linux support. Linux needs to get out of the current chicken-or-the-egg situation when it comes to games. A F2P game as good as PS2 would go a long way. Also, while Linux is indeed a small market compared to Windows, something like PS2 would dwarf all current Linux games. In other words you would dominate that market completely, while in Windows you're always competing with 9001 other games. Lastly, it has been shown that on average Linux users are willing to spend way more money for the same software than Windows users.

[RNFB]

The current plan is to release PlanetSide 2 as a PC client. There are no plans for Linux at this time.

Steam? You never know. However right now our plans are to release through our own launcher.

This doesn't mean either of these will never happen, just not right now.

No Steam = enormous amount of potential players lost

[Goyo]

No Steam = enormous amount of potential players lost

PS2 is a free to play game. SOE would have to pay valve for PS2 to be on steam. Valve would make no money off of downloads because it is free to play therefore SOE would make no backend money off of points.

So, unless Valve is interested in a one time payment from SOE for Valve to use steam and its bandwidth to distribute PS2 it is not happening. At this point I do not think SOE needs steam. On the other hand more players in game potentially visiting the cash shop is advantageous to SOE.

I think I just had an anurism. =/

Would the money SOE pays Valve for PS2 to be on steam be less than or equal to the revenue generated from steam players buying station cash?

[Dagron]

So, unless Valve is interested in a one time payment from SOE for Valve to use steam and its bandwidth to distribute PS2 it is not happening.

You seriously haven't thought there could be some kind of subscription mode to host your games in Steam?


At this point I do not think SOE needs steam.

No one really needs extra advertisement, but everyone sure could use it. ;)

[Bags]

No Steam = enormous amount of potential players lost

And this is based on what...?

[Hamma]

I honestly don't think not being on steam will hurt a F2P game like PlanetSide 2.

[Exmortius]

honestly if ps2 runs on ubuntu i will never load up windows again. although i just loaded ubuntu 12 and my sound is f'd lol. i need to figure that out still but honestly the os front end looks much nicer than even 10.10 which i upgraded from recently. blows win8 away from what i've seen. hopefully i get my sound resolved though in ubuntu 12 this week, i've been lazy this last weekend and didn't get around to it. probably fool with it after i clean my saiga :P i went shooting this weekend and been slacking. my ubuntu 10.10 system wasn't too shabby but since i loaded win8 in dual boot figured i'd check out ubuntu 12 as well.

[Papagiorgio]

If the game is played through Steam, wouldn't SOE have to give Valve a kickback for all in-game purchases (cosmetic items, etc) a la the Apple App Store? I believe that was EA's driver for moving away from Steam to the awful Origin, so they wouldn't have to give Valve a cut of Battlefield 3 sales $$.

As for Linux, I once heard "Linux is free, but only if your time has no value." :) Having worked with Ubuntu, Backtrack and Fedora I tend to agree. It certainly has its uses, but is not generally intuitive and requires a lot of "how do I do X in Linux" Google searches, in my opinion.

[ChipMHazard]

If the game is played through Steam, wouldn't SOE have to give Valve a kickback for all in-game purchases (cosmetic items, etc) a la the Apple App Store? I believe that was EA's driver for moving away from Steam to the awful Origin, so they wouldn't have to give Valve a cut of Battlefield 3 sales $$.

If I remember correctly the problem EA and Valve had concerned DLC, not ingame items bought with real currency.
I don't think Valve would be able to get their royalty rate from ingame items.
Obivously they are getting some kind of income from the F2P games they distribute, so I might be wrong about Valve not getting a cut or it might just be a fee for allowing distribution.

[Falcbe]

i must say, after testing linux i must change my mind, its awesome :D

now that steam is also coming to linux, a linux client might not be a bad idea.

there are numerous f2p games on steam, from other developers than valve

[Dreamcast]

If the game is good, it wont need steam...League of Legends has already proven that.

[AThreatToYou]

SOE would have to pay Valve some really fat royalties in order to get their game on Steam. Tribes: Ascend needed Steam mostly because it was in the gutter and their user base was running thin. At the same time, Hi-Rez can afford to use Steam because they worked out a deal where Hi-Rez paid Valve a direct flat-cut rate and did all of the work integrating the game into Steam.

Other companies host on Steam because it's their only hope at getting players. I hope PS2 doesn't have a problem with that, plus Valve sometimes takes up to 12% of all Steam-related revenue, depending on the agreement.