How to Stop 4th Empire/Spying/Sabotage?

[Marsgrim]

I'm sure a number of people have thought of this, but it seems to me that there is a potential problem generated by the current F2P model.

Firstly, with a F2P model it is very easy for people to create multiple accounts allowing them to desert a faction when it is winning or losing.

Secondly, it can allow sabotage of an empire's actions by spying on primay targets and any form of command chat or priority mission.

Thirdly, it can allow sabotage of an empire's actions at a facility through deliberate greifing - e.g. a galaxy bomb or worse, deliberate misuse of empire resources through spuriously spawning vehicles and parking them in the middle of nowhere or using them to TK.

Does anyone know if the developers have given throught to preventative measures on this - beyond in game CSR which may not police the issue quickly enough if too busy with other calls.

The only preventative meausr eI can think of is through a punkbuster or anti-cheat which registers the computer id to prevent faction switching but that would not account for multiple computers or be fair to those sharing a PC but on different factions.

Anyone got any ideas?

[Sledgecrushr]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Q3RiGhxxf5M/TykDooE-enI/AAAAAAAAGBY/787EzUV2EhA/s1600/loose-lips-sink-ships.jpg


Always observe OPSEC

[MacXXcaM]

I wouldn't think this to be a problem. On a global level there are hardly sensitive information given out within the empire.

True tactics will be used by outfits/squads only, I think.

Afterall most of us are playing the game to have fun, not to win... So I wouldn't care too much about traitors in our midst.

[FuzzyandBlue]

Also vehicles are spawned from a private resource pool not a faction wide one. So said "spys" would need to spend time with their character to troll themselves. As far as the faction hoppers go with an acct for each, well they'll be terrible players most likely and help ensure the constant ebb and flow of the war.

For example, TR is winning, trashing the NC and VS, all the good TR players log off and are replaced by the dead weight in the other two factions. NC and VS, with their now superior players, regain lost ground and then some. I don't know how likely this is but I can see it happening.

[Nasher]

I'm betting they will use a system like in PS1. Where if you switch to a character on the same server in a different faction you have to wait about 8 hours to switch back :P

[megamold]

any mmo has spies. consider it part of the game, just another tactic that comes into play.

mum's the word, or was it opsec ?

I'm betting they will use a system like in PS1. Where if you switch to a character on the same server in a different faction you have to wait about 8 hours to switch back :P
even this will not deter a persitent spy.

edit : just something to think about:
in eve online people actually sub new accounts at 15€ a month just to spy on the enemy (or friendly) corporations.

[Hmr85]

Unfortunately there is no way to stop somebody from spying if they really wanted to. Empire chat was never the most secure thing. With that said though, it won't be hard to figure out where the zerg is. Most spy's will spend their time trying to get into the top outfits for that faction. That comes back to opsec and paying attention to who you let in.

[Nasher]

any mmo has spies. consider it part of the game, just another tactic that comes into play.

mum's the word, or was it opsec ?


even this will not deter a persitent spy.

edit : just something to think about:
in eve online people actually sub new accounts at 15€ a month just to spy on the enemy (or friendly) corporations.

Yea but Eve is all about griefing people. That seems to be the only aim of the game.

In planetside theres not a lot you can see from the enemy's perspective that you can't see from your own and 1 guy can't make any noticable difference when you have about 2000 running around doing their own thing.

It's not even like you have to hunt for cloaked AMSs any more since galaxies are now the mobile spawns and they don't exactly blend in.

[Rexdezi]

Afterall most of us are playing the game to have fun, not to win... So I wouldn't care too much about traitors in our midst.

What if winning is fun to someone?

[megamold]

i don't consider the presence of spies as unfortunate, i think it adds more of a "trust" mechanic to the game.
imho it adds an extra dimension to the tactical gameplay.

also consider that being a spy is not easy, it requires work and patience to infiltrate a large outfit, gain trust and get in to the "inner circle" when it comes to opsec.
information like where the zerg is heading is not usefull.

edit: if you think eve is only about griefing other people you dont understand what the game is about.
also, what consitutes as griefing? if subterfuge and treachery are built into the game, is it griefing? i dont think so.
people blurb on about "realism" here all the time, geuss what : spies are real, and spies in games to. especially if what they do is 100% emergent gameplay.

[ChipMHazard]

I actually consider proper spying as being a fun addition to any mmo with competing factions.
I absolutely love some of the stories of treachery and deceit I've heard from EVE players.:D

[Canaris]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Q3RiGhxxf5M/TykDooE-enI/AAAAAAAAGBY/787EzUV2EhA/s1600/loose-lips-sink-ships.jpg


Always observe OPSEC

I'd love to see these style faction posters up around bases, outposts and towers when you take them over add a sense of paranoia, like a proper war and just as cheesy I hope :D
It's little touchs like these that can make great additions to the game.

http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/pages/exhibits/ww2/images/protection/careless.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQc6fqGjSPXl8Icp21bRJFcrdb_E8T1i toiKALPUtkTLO7f4FMz

[Malorn]

Spies can only do damage if they can see things the enemy can't. Spying will happen, you can't stop it. But you can limit the damage it can do. Spies could follow the main zerg and fly around scoping out potentially vulnerable territories, but if that is information they could get as a hostile player with roughly the same amount of work then having a spy isn't really worth it.


1) Limit showing friendly positions on the map, especially anything that could show how troops are distributed across territories. Spies will use this information to figure out where to attack or send their outfit. So if I open up the minimap I shouldnt' be able to see the locations of every friendly on the continent. I should be able to see nearby friendlies on my minimap though. That makes it a lot more work to spy areas.

2) Don't give a way to show where a particular person is. No /who or crap like that. No outfit scanning. Might be able to identify if a particular person is online, but don't show their continent or location.


If it doesn't really pay off and is a lot of work to get the intel then the number of people doing it will be very low. In games like EVE online spying had a potentially astronomical payoff. In Planetside it wasn't really that big of a deal, but PS also had limited showing of friendlies to CUD abilities that were on a cooldown. So you could find where your empire was but the information was quickly stale. And they also gave reveal enemies to you also so you didn't really need to do that.

If they continue with that, even if people show up on the minimap I'm not terribly concerned. I think the /who stuff did more damage, and being able to find out where specific people were - they shouldn't do that. As others said, opsec. Don't tell people where you're going or what you're doing that you can't trust. If that's the case the only thing a spy could do is follow you. PS2 has friendly fire, which means if someone is following you and you don't like it, tell 'em to piss off and if they don't just kill them. You may also be able to identify spies by stats - few kills/captures, but a lot of playtime, especially as infiltrator or pilot. Might learn to recognize a few of them and if they trail your outfit, kill 'em.

[Canaris]

here's a great NC one

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT4QGkUiCC52Him4WUij6UBOKxqIZw6M FhRIZh3grNUpuLsFSyK

[megamold]

2) Don't give a way to show where a particular person is. No /who or crap like that. No outfit scanning. Might be able to identify if a particular person is online, but don't show their continent or location.
Spying will happen, you can't stop it. But you can limit the damage it can do. Spies could follow the main zerg and fly around scoping out potentially vulnerable territories, but if that is information they could get as a hostile player with roughly the same amount of work then having a spy isn't really worth it.



that would be the work of a scout :)

a spies job isnt really to find out where the enemy is right now, or in 5 minutes time.
his job is to find out where the enemy will try to be in an hour or 2.
or where that specials ops team is being sent before it gets sent out, and why they want them there.

infiltration, social engineering, abuse of trust
being a spy is awesome, to bad im not cut out to be one :(

[Jonny]

here's a great NC one

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT4QGkUiCC52Him4WUij6UBOKxqIZw6M FhRIZh3grNUpuLsFSyK

More like careless squark!



(sorry, ill leave now...)

[Hmr85]

Pretty much everything above. Just don't get caught though or you'll end up getting TK'd on site from a pissed off faction. Lol

[Malorn]

that would be the work of a scout :)

a spies job isnt really to find out where the enemy is right now, or in 5 minutes time.
his job is to find out where the enemy will try to be in an hour or 2.
or where that specials ops team is being sent before it gets sent out, and why they want them there.

infiltration, social engineering, abuse of trust
being a spy is awesome, to bad im not cut out to be one :(

In EVE that's certainly true. In PlanetSide I could look at the map and tell you where the enemy will be with a pretty good idea where they will go next. Didn't need a spy for that.

Outfit spies are the kind that could potentially do damage, but even then it's just one outfit, not all the others on the empire. The scope of the spy is very small. In a game where the spy could help bring down the outfit permanently it would be a different story. But things change so quickly in PlanetSide that the most warning you might get from a Spy is a few minutes, and even then only one outfit. Having a spy in CR5 chat might have been useful in PS1 if they were planning raids and what not, but that was easy enough to counter by having only a select few CR5's calling the target and not revealing that target until the last possible moment.

EVE and Planetside are very different, and I know spying is powerful and potentially extremely damaging in EVE, but it wasn't in Planetside. Scouting really is the most useful thing a spy can do, especially without a CR5 chat. Apart from that, infiltrating a large alliance of outfits might be profitable. But if that's the case there's nothing SOE can do about it because at that point it's a social engineering problem and an opsec problem.

I still think the pacing of PlanetSide is such that the value of spying is quite low. Low enough that it isn't worth the effort unless you want to see how well defended an area is or scope out a potential target without drawing suspicion. That's about it.

[megamold]

yeah, in eve the role of the spy is a very long one, but with potentially huge rewards and impact.
i'm geussing in ps2 the role of the spy will be a more short term one.
and its true that he doesnt have as much impact as a spy in eve,but i can see how having a good spy could still give you an edge in the war.
albeit a small edge :)

and just because the value is lower, doesnt mean there wont be spies. simple because some people just love to be spies :)

[Nasher]

Should be mentioned that you can't just TK people as you like in planetside. If they use the same system as the first game (which is likely) you will get weapon locks and won't be allowed to use vehicles. As it's F2P I expect it to be harsher :)

It doesn't take much either. One explosive in the wrong place, you kill a bunch of team-mates and your locked out of doing pretty much anything on all your characters. It includes friendly structures and deployables as well.

TBH they should have a way of tracking people over multiple accounts as well. Either with IP, some kind of client key, or payment information which you have to provide before hand.

[Malorn]

yeah, in eve the role of the spy is a very long one, but with potentially huge rewards and impact.
i'm geussing in ps2 the role of the spy will be a more short term one.
and its true that he doesnt have as much impact as a spy in eve,but i can see how having a good spy could still give you an edge in the war.
albeit a small edge :)

Unless it's a spy that's being dual-boxed for scouting I think the cost may be higher than the reward. If you have a spy that's a full time spy that's one less player you have in your squads contributing. If it's a dual-boxed alt then the spy probably isn't doing much other than scouting and keeping another pair of eyes on things.

And in PlanetSide having a spy is a bit more difficult since there are two opposing empires. You'd have to infiltrate significant organizations on both of them, and that's a lot of work and it may not pay off all that much between those organizations only being small pieces of the pie and the damage may be limiting. Having two scouting alts though, that's easy. But if scouting's all your doing it might be more beneficial to have a good infiltrator capable of doing that anytime against any target and not move alts around.

Manpower cost matters. More more rifle, one more tank, or one more aircraft is a clear advantage all the time. A chance at a small intel advantage...could just as easily have that man with you and do scouting and a lot more.

[Marsgrim]

Also vehicles are spawned from a private resource pool not a faction wide one. So said "spys" would need to spend time with their character to troll themselves. As far as the faction hoppers go with an acct for each, well they'll be terrible players most likely and help ensure the constant ebb and flow of the war.

For example, TR is winning, trashing the NC and VS, all the good TR players log off and are replaced by the dead weight in the other two factions. NC and VS, with their now superior players, regain lost ground and then some. I don't know how likely this is but I can see it happening.

I am sure vehicles are spawned from Empire resource pools as a way to balance the number of vehicles, hence the need to control resource generating facilities?

[megamold]

Unless it's a spy that's being dual-boxed for scouting I think the cost may be higher than the reward. If you have a spy that's a full time spy that's one less player you have in your squads contributing. If it's a dual-boxed alt then the spy probably isn't doing much other than scouting and keeping another pair of eyes on things.

And in PlanetSide having a spy is a bit more difficult since there are two opposing empires. You'd have to infiltrate significant organizations on both of them, and that's a lot of work and it may not pay off all that much between those organizations only being small pieces of the pie and the damage may be limiting. Having two scouting alts though, that's easy. But if scouting's all your doing it might be more beneficial to have a good infiltrator capable of doing that anytime against any target and not move alts around.

Manpower cost matters. More more rifle, one more tank, or one more aircraft is a clear advantage all the time. A chance at a small intel advantage...could just as easily have that man with you and do scouting and a lot more.

that is true, we will just have to see how it plays out.
i hope they can play some role to make it worth playing as one.

Should be mentioned that you can't just TK people as you like in planetside. If they use the same system as the first game (which is likely) you will get weapon locks and won't be allowed to use vehicles. As it's F2P I expect it to be harsher :)

It doesn't take much either. One explosive in the wrong place, you kill a bunch of team-mates and your locked out of doing pretty much anything on all your characters. It includes friendly structures and deployables as well.

TBH they should have a way of tracking people over multiple accounts as well. Either with IP, some kind of client key, or payment information which you have to provide before hand.

killing 1 guy isnt going to get you grief locked, cause then everyone would be grief locked all the time :)
i really watch out, trying not to hit friendly's. yet i still do.
like you said : it doesnt take much

edit : and i could be wrong but i think i heard higby talking about a player API like eve has.

[RoninAfro]

I'm not sure how the process actually works, but would it be possible to see the IP address that an account logged on from and if they try to log on to a separate account, the servers sees that IP address logged on to a different account and locks that IP address to the first account for 5 minutes? e.g., IP w.x.y.z is on their primary account, logs off to spy with a different account but the server sees that IP w.x.y.z logged on to their first account and keeps them from logging on to their second account until 5 minutes has passed from them logging out from their original account. That way it wouldn't prohibit people from legitimately server swapping, but would also keep any info they bring from being potentially useful.

[Ghoest9]

I dont really see this becoming a problem.

Most operational organization comes from with in companies(or sometimes 2 or 3 companies working together) rather than the whole server.

Companies can handle their own intel security and there is no security needed with the zerg.

[lolroflroflcake]

There is nothing wrong with spying in a game, if your whining about it you have only proven that you completely missed the point. Besides a spy cannot actively keep you from having fun or sabotage without being labelled as a griefer and being punished as such, they just help their team win through information and that is a legitimate tactic in Planetside.

The fourth empire is the only real problem, but if they want to make a totally different account for each empire on a server then that's up to them. Cause I am almost entirely certain that there will be measures in place to keep people on one empire per server for one given account.

[Zebasiz]

I also Don't see spying as being THAT big of a deal,
But if it is, why has no one brought up counterspys?
Someone in the enemy faction and organizations specifically trying to find out the info the enemy spy is handing over, then relaying that to your sides leaders quietly, so they can change plans at the last minute.

[Marsgrim]

I dont really see this becoming a problem.

Most operational organization comes from with in companies(or sometimes 2 or 3 companies working together) rather than the whole server.

Companies can handle their own intel security and there is no security needed with the zerg.

The problem is for the people working to take a base who then get their effort and fun ruined by someone dual boxing to grief the attempt and sabotage it.

Even with grief lock, it's still feasible for a friendly tank to ruin the attempts of a large number of players. With the F2P model, all you need to create an account is an email address at this stage, as far as we know, which makes it easier to abuse the system.

You may wish to say it won't make an impact on the overall fight although I disagree, but it certianly makes an impact on a local fight where hours of play could be sabotaged. It's fun to fight, it's not fun to be deliberately TK'd repeatedly to prevent you achieving what you want to.

[megamold]

I also Don't see spying as being THAT big of a deal,
But if it is, why has no one brought up counterspys?
Someone in the enemy faction and organizations specifically trying to find out the info the enemy spy is handing over, then relaying that to your sides leaders quietly, so they can change plans at the last minute.

now thats some advanced spying right there :D

[Nemises]

mmmmm....sweet sweet meta-game

[p0intman]

I'm sure a number of people have thought of this, but it seems to me that there is a potential problem generated by the current F2P model.

Firstly, with a F2P model it is very easy for people to create multiple accounts allowing them to desert a faction when it is winning or losing.

Secondly, it can allow sabotage of an empire's actions by spying on primay targets and any form of command chat or priority mission.

Thirdly, it can allow sabotage of an empire's actions at a facility through deliberate greifing - e.g. a galaxy bomb or worse, deliberate misuse of empire resources through spuriously spawning vehicles and parking them in the middle of nowhere or using them to TK.

Does anyone know if the developers have given throught to preventative measures on this - beyond in game CSR which may not police the issue quickly enough if too busy with other calls.

The only preventative meausr eI can think of is through a punkbuster or anti-cheat which registers the computer id to prevent faction switching but that would not account for multiple computers or be fair to those sharing a PC but on different factions.

Anyone got any ideas?
with it being completely free to play... you can't.

[Trafalgar]

People keep referring to the Fourth Empire. I'm sure these reports of Cacti spies are exaggerated. There's no way the Vanu could have possibly planted listening devices in all of them.

[Complicated scheme which is mainly checking IPs for duplicates and preventing simultaneous logins or re-logins within 5 minutes.

Yes, great idea, then people won't be able to play with their wives, brothers, imaginary siblings (okay, I had to toss one in for the people running two clients at once :p)...

You could block two clients on two accounts at once if on the same computer by creating a hardware ID (Perhaps punkbuster has a function for it, some other DRM systems do) for the system and comparing it.

I don't really know of any good way to block running separate clients on separate accounts on separate computers without also blocking people from playing with family from behind a router, which is the way you normally hook multiple machines to the internet anyways (e.g. there is no way to know if it is one person or separate people using multiple clients unless you were to add anti-afk code to aggressively log off anyone who isn't moving their mouse or typing frequently, and then it's going to be downright annoying).

If anyone else does have a magic bullet, please, describe it in detail. :p
And don't say "WWWEBCAMS."

[capiqu]

. Try that your empire has and uses the best spying network and techniques ?

[Trafalgar]

Sun Tzu points out a number of different types of spies, and advises employing all of them.

(Of course, he also has an entire section devoted to the use of fire in war)

[NewSith]

@OP: Trying to fight 4th empire (especially with your methods) is something like trying to pass a law prohibiting the use of hands, because you can strangle people with them.

[Trafalgar]

That was my point. You can't kill an idea computer game spah with bullets technological countermeasures.

[NewSith]

That was my point.

/Ninja'd

[OutlawDr]

Im not worried about spying. They can only hurt you if you are careless with sensitive info. Any info over all chat should just be general orders to wrangle the zerg to certain locations. Most likely obvious movements that the opposition will probably have already anticipated. Any important info will be over private chat, or put on all chat at the last second to not give your enemies enough time to react.

[Dairian]

Hardware ID or Credit card per account. Once you get caught Tk'ing they ban the ID or the credit card. Once you run out of credit cards you can no longer make new accounts. Problem solved.

Only problem with this is many people won't make an account if they have to give out a credit card.

[super pretendo]

Prevent the same IP from logging into another account for one hour. It won't be perfect, but it will be a huge help

[Sledgecrushr]

Spying is going to be fun, Im going to have twenty accounts in all of your outfits. I will be everywhere seeing everything.

[Dairian]

Spying is going to be fun, Im going to have twenty accounts in all of your outfits. I will be everywhere seeing everything.

True enough there will be people that just love to spy. Probably wont even play the game. Just will give out info to there preferred side.

Everyone has there niche. Hopefully this wont be a huge problem.

[Bazilx]

Spying in EvE was cool.

[super pretendo]

Spying in EvE was cool.

Yeah, but it took more than a cross-eyed mouthbreather switching accounts on a whim. It took months of planning and pretending, and alliances had levels of intelligence to prevent it.

[Warborn]

I don't see any reason to care about this sort of stuff. You're fighting over bases you're going to lose by the next day if not immediately after. Who cares if people spy, or sabotage, or switch empires? It's a game of zero consequence. Have fun shooting people with guns and forget about trying to get serious about it.

[Ghoest9]

The problem is for the people working to take a base who then get their effort and fun ruined by someone dual boxing to grief the attempt and sabotage it.

Even with grief lock, it's still feasible for a friendly tank to ruin the attempts of a large number of players. With the F2P model, all you need to create an account is an email address at this stage, as far as we know, which makes it easier to abuse the system.

You may wish to say it won't make an impact on the overall fight although I disagree, but it certianly makes an impact on a local fight where hours of play could be sabotaged. It's fun to fight, it's not fun to be deliberately TK'd repeatedly to prevent you achieving what you want to.

i suppose sabatoge could be an issue - but we will have to see the mechanics in action before we know if it matters.

[Nemises]

maybe just maybe something useful could be gleaned by checking the other empires Mission pool (assuming its available to view empire wide?)...but knowing this, the canny CR5 group aint going to broadcast the nights plan on it..

also,
I someone wants to get a spy alt up to CR5..then good on them, they deserve to get the inside scoop..that stuff takes a loooong time (or it did in PS1)

[Envenom]

I don't see any reason to care about this sort of stuff. You're fighting over bases you're going to lose by the next day if not immediately after. Who cares if people spy, or sabotage, or switch empires? It's a game of zero consequence. Have fun shooting people with guns and forget about trying to get serious about it.

Nailed it.

[OutlawDr]

maybe just maybe something useful could be gleaned by checking the other empires Mission pool (assuming its available to view empire wide?)...but knowing this, the canny CR5 group aint going to broadcast the nights plan on it..

also,
I someone wants to get a spy alt up to CR5..then good on them, they deserve to get the inside scoop..that stuff takes a loooong time (or it did in PS1)

Though hopefully its not just a matter of grinding to CR5 to get access to cont chat.