Should camo be obtainable without money?

[meiam]

I understand the idea that camo being only obtainable with money will finance part of the system, and that making it money only you'll supposedly get more money, but I've been thinking that maybe it's counterproductive. Two things:

1) Some people might want to play with camo, but don't want to be labelled as payer, so having some way to obtain camo without money would allow them to buy them will still leaving doubt in other people that maybe they just got theirs without paying.

2) They might actually give advantage, I'd rather have a desert camo than being bright blue/pink in a desert fight.

I think it would be good if some camo would be obtainable with just exp like the gear/cert and have some that would be brought only with money. Also maybe have some that you could get trough special achievement/event but also be brought with money.

[berzerkerking]

NO
To clarify the developers need the small cash boost they get from the camo sales to keep the servers running and support this massive community. Normally i'm a leech in these types of games but I am fully behind this game 100 percent and I would pay full price for it if I could.

[Gandhi]

but don't want to be labelled as payer
Why?

[Vetto]

It's not a bad idea, this is the route TF2 has taken were outside of some pre-order/event items, you can make/find any object they feature in the store, been working for them for some time now.

Then again TF2 started off that you had to pay for the game first then went F2P.

[Holmes]

I think its better not to, as it keeps more military styled uniformity between most soldiers.

[Bazilx]

Why?

Poor people get mad.

[BigBossMonkey]

No. If you want to have cool camo patterns, you have to pay.

[Reefpirate]

I dunno why there would be stigma attached to 'payers'. Are people so damn cheap these days? A game this hella good deserves people to pay money, and stigma be damned.

[Wahooo]

It is the current way to go in successful games. Free game = free to play and compete, pay money for crap that doesn't matter to actual game play.
It should be kept this way. If you think it is cool and want it? Pay for it. If it affects the ability to kill or stay alive earn it through game play.

No pay to win. Yes on pay to bling.

[Gandhi]

Poor people get mad.
Sounds like fun :)

[Landtank]

Uhh, no?

SOE needs to make money somehow.

[Sephirex]

Poor people get mad.

They should be thanking me for paying their subscription fees.

[Xyntech]

It's not a bad idea, this is the route TF2 has taken were outside of some pre-order/event items, you can make/find any object they feature in the store, been working for them for some time now.

Then again TF2 started off that you had to pay for the game first then went F2P.

That seems like it would be okay to me. As long as it was just a few cosmetics that you can gain through some other means in addition to purchasing. Most cosmetics would still be unobtainable without paying for them. I don't think they should all be grindable like in TF2, although considering how long that grind is I guess it wouldn't be as big a deal. My gut still says no, except for the occasional cross promotional item or whatever.

Haven't they already suggested that there will be some cosmetic changes to your armor as you level up like the first game had? That may be something along those lines.

[Mastachief]

No. I think that any form of cosmetic customisation should have to be paid for.

[BillyBob]

No, I don't thinks so.

SOE needs to somehow bring in cash from the game and I'd rather it's from purely cosmetic stuff like camos than anything else.

/BB

[meiam]

Nobody's actually reading >.>

I'm arguing that SOE would make MORE money if it was possible to get the camo trough game, not less.

The reason for stigma against paying player is pretty simple, "oh the guy who just killed me got a camo, he is therefore a paying gamer, if he's ready to buy camo he's ready to buy better gear, if he's ready to buy better gear, he beat me because he got better gear than I do"

[Canaris]

so getting everything in PS2 for free bar the wardrobe isn't enough for you.... lower your expectations back to earth

[Sephirex]

Nobody's actually reading >.>

I'm arguing that SOE would make MORE money if it was possible to get the camo trough game, not less.

The reason for stigma against paying player is pretty simple, "oh the guy who just killed me got a camo, he is therefore a paying gamer, if he's ready to buy camo he's ready to buy better gear, if he's ready to buy better gear, he beat me because he got better gear than I do"

I re-read your original post and I still don't see where you say how SOE will make more money from this.

[Mastachief]

The reason for stigma against paying player is pretty simple, "oh the guy who just killed me got a camo, he is therefore a paying gamer, if he's ready to buy camo he's ready to buy better gear, if he's ready to buy better gear, he beat me because he got better gear than I do"


There is no stigma. It's oh look that guy is actively supporting this game with his disposable income. The is not pay to win. Frankly i think people that will play this game and not contribute at all are scum.

[Xyntech]

There will always be players who cry "P2W!" no matter if it's true, partially true, or completely false. No need to worry about that, as long as the game isn't actually P2W.

But for the most part, 99% to 100% of the cosmetics should be real money only.

[meiam]

There is no stigma. It's oh look that guy is actively supporting this game with his disposable income. The is not pay to win. Frankly i think people that will play this game and not contribute at all are scum.

The vast majority of player won't pay and won't have that opinion. The only people who will have that opinion will be the other player who will themselves buy camo.

I'm not arguing the stigma make sense or is logical, I'm arguing it exist and some player who would buy camo are conscious of this.

[Sephirex]

The vast majority of player won't pay and won't have that opinion. The only people who will have that opinion will be the other player who will themselves buy camo.

I'm not arguing the stigma make sense or is logical, I'm arguing it exist and some player who would buy camo are conscious of this.

Can anyone else here back this claim? I personally will have no problem buying stuff.

[Winfernal]

Do you expect them to maintain this game using magic?

Also. "Payer/buyer". You can stop using those terms.

[Purple]

The vast majority of player won't pay and won't have that opinion. The only people who will have that opinion will be the other player who will themselves buy camo.

I'm not arguing the stigma make sense or is logical, I'm arguing it exist and some player who would buy camo are conscious of this.

this is not true but for a second lets say it is. if players can get camo another way then some people who would have paied for the camo wont and go about getting it another way.

I will have nothing but respect for whoever buys camo.

[MacXXcaM]

Buying stuff in the game should be the normal case... I don't think there will be many non-paying but much playing PS2 players.
I think outfits will encourage their members to buy stuff be it just to make themselves special in any way.

[BigBossMonkey]

Nobody's actually reading >.>

I'm arguing that SOE would make MORE money if it was possible to get the camo trough game, not less.

The reason for stigma against paying player is pretty simple, "oh the guy who just killed me got a camo, he is therefore a paying gamer, if he's ready to buy camo he's ready to buy better gear, if he's ready to buy better gear, he beat me because he got better gear than I do"

What the eff are you talking about?

[none]

I don't understand... What is this being labelled a "buyers"?? Since when is it bad to buy your video games? You just want everything for free? How do you expect them to pay for the development of the past few years? How do you expect them to pay for server costs?

It seems like some people have no sense of money and that nothing in life is free. Especially not a game that costs millions of dollars to make and run.

How about this threads just get deleted before he just get flamed.

[Mastachief]

The vast majority of player won't pay and won't have that opinion.

I can't tell if you are just trolling.

These people if they exist don't have opinions that matter as they are not contributing. Due to the existence of outfits and the fact you typically stick to playing with your outfit, peoples opinions outside the outfit generally don't matter at all.

IF you want skins you pay simple that the fricking point of a F2P game that's costing millions to make.

I find it very hard to believe that anyone will play for any meaningful amount of time will not spend even a little cash.

[Winfernal]

"oh the guy who just killed me got a camo, he is therefore a paying gamer, if he's ready to buy camo he's ready to buy better gear, if he's ready to buy better gear, he beat me because he got better gear than I do"

Woah, what?!

[Xyntech]

Can anyone else here back this claim? I personally will have no problem buying stuff.

I once bought a cosmetic pimp hat and I got a funny feeling in my pants.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4084/pimpin.png (http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4084/pimpin.png)

[Thorondor]

I'm not arguing the stigma make sense or is logical, I'm arguing it exist and some player who would buy camo are conscious of this.

It damn sure doesn't exist in Tribes Ascend.

[Sephirex]

I once bought a cosmetic pimp hat and I got a funny feeling in my pants.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4084/pimpin.png (http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4084/pimpin.png)

Okay, I WOULD be ashamed of that.

[Winfernal]

Can i use the term "leecher" for people not paying?

[Crator]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKyilDqgc-JeM7svWNnNInkCNKxTH9RTMWIhNuHeu-wROp9gtD

[Whiteknight]

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4084/pimpin.png (http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4084/pimpin.png)

I don't know who designed that abomination, but kill it! Kill it now!
Kill both the person wearing it, and the designer of it.

[meiam]

The kind of people who frequent PSU will only make a fraction of the player base. Most people are just going to see "Oh a nice looking MMOFPS F2P" supporting the game or anything like that will be pretty far from there mind. The vast majority of F2P game have most of there player not paying, I think paying for stuff is going to be the exception not the norms.

It's not like the camo would be handed for free, they could cost quite a lot of exp, even more than gun and such.

It might even encourage people to buy camo because more people have camo, if everyone has camo but you don't, you might want to quickly get one so you 're not labeled "noob" on sight, and maybe grinding for it and forgoing gun upgrade might be something you'd rather avoid, so you'll end up buying it instead.

[demonicale]

I think its better not to, as it keeps more military styled uniformity between most soldiers.

I agree with this, and the need for SOE to atleast make SOME money on they're brilliant investment.

[Shogun]

without the freeplayers, the paying customers will have nobody to shoot at!

there is no player versus environment at all, so every player is content! so the free players are not scum in this game at all.

they are allowed and encouraged to play the FULL game with all expansions and every piece of content totally for free! that´s something almost no other game can offer!
so the cosmetic stuff has to be cash only, because that´s the way to encourage the free players to donate a few bucks without forcing them to do so!
cosmetics is cool but doesn´t give you any power or advantage over the freeplayers.

you don´t want to give them any money, so play the game completely for free, but don´t expect to get some nifty cosmetical stuff.

you love the game and want to donate? fine, you still play the same game but get some nice cosmetical stuff to look cooler.

nothing wrong with this business model at all! if they stick with it, it´s the best businessmodel out there! asking to get EVERYTHING for free is cheap.

i say IF they would add the option to earn everything ingame, they would (and should) set up very high prices for the items that were meant as cash only.
like startrek online. you can get everything for free, but to obtain enough ingame ressources to buy a good ship without real cash, you need to grind for several weeks to months. in this case it´s bad because the ships are power, but the model would fit to cosmetics as well. so people would consider if it´s worth to sacrifice all ressources for weeks, or if spending a few bucks would be the faster and easier way.

[Lythca Frost]

The F2P model we have seen thus far is extremely generous to those players who decide not to play. Definitely should have to have real cash only sales of these 'game unchanging' items.

We'll see people spending a lot of money on this game because of a 'collectors' mentality rather than people seeking raw power, and that's just fine. During the E3 footage (or was it the Higby/TB steam), notice how they boost up the psychological desire to buy 'side-graded' weaponry, but giving them unique names? You were not just buying a Gauss rifle with 'x' instead of 'y'. You were buying a uniquely named weapon, yet, for all intents it was only a sidegrade of the standard rifle.

Brilliant!

[Xyntech]

i say IF they would add the option to earn everything ingame, they would (and should) set up very high prices for the items that were meant as cash only.
like startrek online. you can get everything for free, but to obtain enough ingame ressources to buy a good ship without real cash, you need to grind for several weeks to months. in this case it´s bad because the ships are power, but the model would fit to cosmetics as well. so people would consider if it´s worth to sacrifice all ressources for weeks, or if spending a few bucks would be the faster and easier way.

6 months of constant grinding for 1 silly camo skin sounds about right to me ;)

[Reizod]

There is no stigma. It's oh look that guy is actively supporting this game with his disposable income. The is not pay to win. Frankly i think people that will play this game and not contribute at all are scum.

This ^^^

I don't think the Devs should be in the business of worrying about "stigma" and player's perceptions. Especially when it could cost them money.

To me, buying any dress-up item would make me feel like I'm donating to the cause of potentially great game. They (SOE) show us love, we show them some love.

[Deezy]

The kind of people who frequent PSU will only make a fraction of the player base. Most people are just going to see "Oh a nice looking MMOFPS F2P" supporting the game or anything like that will be pretty far from there mind. The vast majority of F2P game have most of there player not paying, I think paying for stuff is going to be the exception not the norms.

It's not like the camo would be handed for free, they could cost quite a lot of exp, even more than gun and such.

It might even encourage people to buy camo because more people have camo, if everyone has camo but you don't, you might want to quickly get one so you 're not labeled "noob" on sight, and maybe grinding for it and forgoing gun upgrade might be something you'd rather avoid, so you'll end up buying it instead.

http://cdn.smosh.com/sites/default/files/bloguploads/tro-lo-trolololo.jpg

Hopefully everyone's out of kibble, so we can stop feeding him.

[Shaermon]

Okay, I WOULD be ashamed of that.

I don't really see the difference from the regular Vanu max...

[Dagron]

0/10

[aceshigh]

cosmetics is cool but doesn´t give you any power or advantage over the freeplayers.

Not quite true. The desert camo on desert maps like Indar and other camo's for other maps will help players blend into their environment and therefore will provide them with an advantage over freeplayers.

That said, I fully intend to by all of the realistic (power) camo's available. I'm willing to bet that after doing that I still will have come nowhere close to paying what I would for a non-f2p game.

[GuyFawkes]

I think most of the cosmetic stuff should be market only , but equally I also think quite a lot should be unlocked in game so you can access rarer cosmetic items from the cash shop.
Sure you can buy zebra camo , but i earned merit x so I can now acquire super-flame effect zebra camo etc.

[Bags]

Not quite true. The desert camo on desert maps like Indar and other camo's for other maps will help players blend into their environment and therefore will provide them with an advantage over freeplayers.


None of the camos we've seen blend terribly well, even the desert and jungle ones.

[Envenom]

I understand the idea that camo being only obtainable with money will finance part of the system, and that making it money only you'll supposedly get more money, but I've been thinking that maybe it's counterproductive. Two things:

1) Some people might want to play with camo, but don't want to be labelled as payer, so having some way to obtain camo without money would allow them to buy them will still leaving doubt in other people that maybe they just got theirs without paying.

2) They might actually give advantage, I'd rather have a desert camo than being bright blue/pink in a desert fight.

I think it would be good if some camo would be obtainable with just exp like the gear/cert and have some that would be brought only with money. Also maybe have some that you could get trough special achievement/event but also be brought with money.

After all the hard work the devs have put into this game and you want to undermine their primary source of income even further? You selfish...

[Conq]

No, all skins should be purchased. They have to make money somehow, besides the default skins aren't THAT visible, it's not like anyone will to be wearing bright purple.... right?

[Mechzz]

None of the camos we've seen blend terribly well, even the desert and jungle ones.

Either that or some camos are so good we literally didn't see them

Nah, they just don't blend well.

[super pretendo]

What I am curious is to how much of a gameplay advantage camo will bring, in my opinion the more effective camo is, the better. I love ghillie suits in all games, but it may look really out of place in a sci fi game

[Top Sgt]

people don't wanna be labeled as a pay player?

For PS2 a pay player is a good thing means your supporting the devs.

You can't buy power this is not Pay to win so everyone should want to be a pay player and support the game

IMO All camo and cosmetic changes should all be Pay only

[The Degenatron]

I think that SOE should offer 3 basic camo sets for free:

Desert
Arctic
Jungle

Giving free access to these dispells the whole "OMG he only killed me because I couldn't see him in his PURCHASED camo! P2W! P2W!" bullshit.

Fine, here's you basic 3 camos.

Beyond that, all other camos should be Purchased - including variants of the Jungle, Arctic, and Desert camos.

[NEWSKIS]

Other people wont care if you buy skins for characters or weapons. The term "wallet warrior" generally gets thrown on people who buy things that are better because they were bought with actual money.

Take World of Tanks for example. you can pay real money to permanently keep a tank camo pattern. Those people dont get labeled. The people that pay real money for tanks that make more in game currency or for shells with higher penetration values get labeled as "wallet warriors". Not everyone thinks that way however. Its really a minority that do that. So far from what I've seen PS2 shouldnt have that problem.

[aceshigh]

I think that SOE should offer 3 basic camo sets for free:

Desert
Arctic
Jungle

Giving free access to these dispells the whole "OMG he only killed me because I couldn't see him in his PURCHASED camo! P2W! P2W!" bullshit.

Fine, here's you basic 3 camos.

Beyond that, all other camos should be Purchased - including variants of the Jungle, Arctic, and Desert camos.



I disagree, I think that is the minimum everyone that cares enough should feel the need to pay for.

[meiam]

After all the hard work the devs have put into this game and you want to undermine their primary source of income even further? You selfish...

I really doubt camo will be there primary source of income, someone mentioned tribes, played 10-20 hour of it, never saw a single camo, so either tribes is not making any money, or most player are buying weapon with money. And I think one of the reason is that if someone shoot you with a better weapon (let's not kid ourselves, not all weapon will be equal) there's no way to know if that person got that weapon by grinding it or by buying, but a camo you know 100% the person brought it.

Now if you want to buy a camo that is only possible to be brought with money to broadcast that you support the game, those should exist, that was in my first post, heck they could even have a camo that says on the chest "I payed for this because I support PS2". But some people don't want the label and won't spend money because they'll want to avoid it, so not making money were you could have made some.

Also camo aren't supposed to make you invisible in knife fight, there supposed to make it harder to aim at long range and make it harder to spot you at very long range. If there's a green spot on a green background 5 km away, it's pretty hard to spot it, but if there's a bright purple, then it's much easier.

[Bags]

But some people don't want the label and won't spend money because they'll want to avoid it, so not making money were you could have made some.

But there is no label. :doh:

[ZeroArmada]

They should make a few basic camos obtainable in game. Give people something to at least try out, and if they desire more they can go ahead and pay for premium camos.

[Nemises]

??..but you cant buy weapons in PS2 with station cash...only "sidegrades" (cool new sites, modifiers etc)...so, your whole argument is moot.

..besides, who wouldn't pay $40 for fluro-pink magmower headlights...

[Wahooo]

"Should camo be obtainable without money?"

No.

/thread

[Kashis]

They should make a few basic camos obtainable in game. Give people something to at least try out, and if they desire more they can go ahead and pay for premium camos.

If you want to see how a camo looks before you buy it, just go to you tube and search the camo type. I BET YOU 1 WEEK INTO THE GAME YOU CAN FIND IT.

[none]

But some people don't want the label and won't spend money because they'll want to avoid it, so not making money were you could have made some.

THERE ARE NO LABELS!!

You're just pulling it all out of your ass and making stupid assumptions even though it's been confirms and reconfirmed multiple times that YOU CAN NOT BUY OP WEAPONS.

Omg you BOUGHT Battlefields 3? OMG you're a "buyer"! You should of just shop lifted it like the rest of us.

You're either brain dead and not listening to anyone that is responding to you, or(more than likely) you're trolling.

+1 for Lock!

[The Degenatron]

I disagree, I think that is the minimum everyone that cares enough should feel the need to pay for.

We learned what to do and what not to do. I feel pretty comfortable saying we don’t sell power. We don’t believe in that. We sell convenience and we sell cosmetic stuff. I think what we’ve learned is not to push the audience into a place they don’t want to be.

Whether you acknowledge it or not, selling a part of the game that makes you even a little harder to see, it tantamount to selling power.

And what you are doing is actively advocating that SOE push people into making that purchase. Something the director of SOE has stated emphaticly he does not want SOE doing.

Understand this: I'm already budgeted. I'm paying for everything I can get my greedy hands on. Free or not won't matter to me personally. The one thing I can't buy: People to shoot at. You may think it's a given, but I don't. I won't take that for granted.

I think that what I am advocating is a reasonable compromise. It's equal footing for free players - I've got no problem with that. Do you?

[meiam]

THERE ARE NO LABELS!!

You're just pulling it all out of your ass and making stupid assumptions even though it's been confirms and reconfirmed multiple times that YOU CAN NOT BUY OP WEAPONS.

Omg you BOUGHT Battlefields 3? OMG you're a "buyer"! You should of just shop lifted it like the rest of us.

You're either brain dead and not listening to anyone that is responding to you, or(more than likely) you're trolling.

+1 for Lock!

Why are you freaking out like that? Wether the label exist or not is not for me or you to decide it's for the random people who will play the game. Having played a couple of F2P game that says they don't sell power I can tell you that I saw many things being said that lead me to believe the label exist and it could lead people to avoid buying things that could only be brought with money. I perfectly fine with people disagreeing with me, but please use the precious screen place for argument based on logic, not on how big you're letters are.

Every little piece of game that can modify anything in the game could lead to advantage in certain situation, saying that the game doesn't sell power is only true if the game doesn't sell anything.

[Bags]

Why are you freaking out like that? Wether the label exist or not is not for me or you to decide it's for the random people who will play the game. Having played a couple of F2P game that says they don't sell power I can tell you that I saw many things being said that lead me to believe the label exist and it could lead people to avoid buying things that could only be brought with money.

League of Legends.

QED

[Wahooo]

Have you seen the "camo"... they are just aesthetic patterns, and I do recall in one of the E3 streams the answer that they want to keep whenever possible the ES color scheme. F2P gets the basic empire outfit. More costs $$ and based on the way other games have been doing it the actual cost is going to vary quite a bit from item to item.

This thread and these arguments are tired. A lot of this crap came up at the first mention of cash shops and I for one got REALLY scared. Games that IMO do it wrong are Combat Arms and World of Tanks. You really have to pay to stay competitive with the people who pay a lot. Games that do it right? T:A and LoL cosmetics and convenience and they are doing pretty well. You can never pay a dime and compete with ANYONE in those games, but chances are if you are at that level you will buy something you WANT as you are never forced to buy something you NEED.

From everything we know PS2 is going to be this way and to me it looks great. If you NEED it to compete you can obtain it through playing. If you WANT it because its cool/fun makes life convenient you pay.

[ZeroArmada]

If you want to see how a camo looks before you buy it, just go to you tube and search the camo type. I BET YOU 1 WEEK INTO THE GAME YOU CAN FIND IT.

Not talking about previews bro...
I was thinking more along the lines of providing players with two or three basic camos, then having the rest be purchasable with station cash. That way, at least everyone can utilize a camo, by paying or not. A lot of F2P FPS game follow a similiar models, most utilize weapons for this (hence P2W), but stuff such as camo and other asetheics also follow this mode and has done a reasonably well job.

[aceshigh]

Whether you acknowledge it or not, selling a part of the game that makes you even a little harder to see, it tantamount to selling power.

And what you are doing is actively advocating that SOE push people into making that purchase. Something the director of SOE has stated emphaticly he does not want SOE doing.

Understand this: I'm already budgeted. I'm paying for everything I can get my greedy hands on. Free or not won't matter to me personally. The one thing I can't buy: People to shoot at. You may think it's a given, but I don't. I won't take that for granted.

I think that what I am advocating is a reasonable compromise. It's equal footing for free players - I've got no problem with that. Do you?

What if that desert variant you suggested blends just a little better than the standard desert camo? Should it then be free too?

I do agree that it is buying an advantage, I stated it in a few posts above your own. Even if it doesn't blend that much, it still may be enough to make you hesitate and lose the jump. But if they just limited that to the camos, I would be ok with it. What are we talking, $3-$5?

[Xyntech]

League of Legends.

QED

Yep, this. LoL is a perfect example. You can't possibly unlock cosmetic items without real money in that game. Nobody cares, because everyone knows cosmetics are just for style and that they help pay for the otherwise free game.

No stigma.

[Kashis]

Not talking about previews bro...
I was thinking more along the lines of providing players with two or three basic camos, then having the rest be purchasable with station cash. That way, at least everyone can utilize a camo, by paying or not. A lot of F2P FPS game follow a similiar models, most utilize weapons for this (hence P2W), but stuff such as camo and other asetheics also follow this mode and has done a reasonably well job.

Oh okay my bad,

Here three camo just for you.
I have a purple and teal one, Looks like Barney.
A black and red one, kinda looks like an Elmo.
Ooh, a blue and yellow, looks like a smurf.

[Sledgecrushr]

After reading this thread for the last ten minutes I now would TK the cheap bastards that arent contributing money to the game.

[none]

please use the precious screen place for argument based on logic,

You're going to talk to me about logic? You're pulling all this out of your ass.

[meiam]

Yep, this. LoL is a perfect example. You can't possibly unlock cosmetic items without real money in that game. Nobody cares, because everyone knows cosmetics are just for style and that they help pay for the otherwise free game.

No stigma.

It's a good point, but:

In LoL you can only buy skin or champion (correct me if I'm wrong) but in PS2 you can buy actual upgrade (side grade if you prefer). Now skin offer no advantage since you're name is always very visible (which is not the case of PS2). And champion are on free rotation, so eventually you'll be able to use them for free. For LoL to be more like PS2 it would need to sell the rune with real money. I would also argue that LoL make more money from people buying boost and champion than skin, if you have any proof that can counter this, by all mean enlighten me.

So seeing someone with a skin can only tell you that this person is ready to use money to buy champion. But seeing someone with a camo in PS2 tell you that he's ready to buy upgrade for his gun, which could be the reason why you lost. Which could be something people would rather avoid (I'm not saying 100% of the the PS2 population, I'm saying a number large enough that it's worth thinking about), so say because camo are obtainable with exp, you have let say 10 000 person who don't buy camo which would have otherwise brought them (instead they decide to grind for it, possibly playing more, making the server livelier), but in exchange 50 000 person decide to buy camo because now they can avoid broadcasting to other player that they payed.

[ZeroArmada]

Oh okay my bad,

Here three camo just for you.
I have a purple and teal one, Looks like Barney.
A black and red one, kinda looks like an Elmo.
Ooh, a blue and yellow, looks like a smurf.

Why are you even replying if you have nothing to say? :|

After reading this thread for the last ten minutes I now would TK the cheap bastards that arent contributing money to the game.

People will pay for more if they have a little teaser of what's available IMO.

[Jinxsey]

After reading this thread for the last ten minutes I now would TK the cheap bastards that arent contributing money to the game.

+1

Seriously guys, "Oh my god you paid money", thats some seriously purile bullshit right there.

SOE has to make money, so they're selling camo. They could be selling 20mm high explosive armour pericing assault rifle ammo that costs $1 a bullet, but they arn't.

To suggest that camoflage patterns composed largely of bright primary colours is power, is a little above the bar for suspension of disbelief.

[Wahooo]

It's a good point, but:

In LoL you can only buy skin or champion (correct me if I'm wrong) but in PS2 you can buy actual upgrade (side grade if you prefer). Now skin offer no advantage since you're name is always very visible (which is not the case of PS2). And champion are on free rotation, so eventually you'll be able to use them for free. For LoL to be more like PS2 it would need to sell the rune with real money. I would also argue that LoL make more money from people buying boost and champion than skin, if you have any proof that can counter this, by all mean enlighten me.

So seeing someone with a skin can only tell you that this person is ready to use money to buy champion. But seeing someone with a camo in PS2 tell you that he's ready to buy upgrade for his gun, which could be the reason why you lost. Which could be something people would rather avoid (I'm not saying 100% of the the PS2 population, I'm saying a number large enough that it's worth thinking about), so say because camo are obtainable with exp, you have let say 10 000 person who don't buy camo which would have otherwise brought them (instead they decide to grind for it, possibly playing more, making the server livelier), but in exchange 50 000 person decide to buy camo because now they can avoid broadcasting to other player that they payed.

If these are the problems you foresee with the current cash shop model... um... giving free camo is not a solution.

[Kashis]

Whether you acknowledge it or not, selling a part of the game that makes you even a little harder to see, it tantamount to selling power.

And what you are doing is actively advocating that SOE push people into making that purchase. Something the director of SOE has stated emphaticly he does not want SOE doing.

Understand this: I'm already budgeted. I'm paying for everything I can get my greedy hands on. Free or not won't matter to me personally. The one thing I can't buy: People to shoot at. You may think it's a given, but I don't. I won't take that for granted.

I think that what I am advocating is a reasonable compromise. It's equal footing for free players - I've got no problem with that. Do you?
Yes, I have a problem with what you are advocating. League of Legends has a character named Teemo.. He has a camo skin which "allows him to blend in" and gives him a cute army hat!

You can only get it by paying real cash. No one has cried foul. Why, you might ask? Because everyone in that core of players has gotten used to buying skins and no one cares.

[Kashis]

[QUOTE=ZeroArmada;743812]Why are you even replying if you have nothing to say? :|

Because I can, Planetside Universe gives me the freedom to do so.

[Xyntech]

It's a good point, but:

In LoL you can only buy skin or champion (correct me if I'm wrong) but in PS2 you can buy actual upgrade (side grade if you prefer). Now skin offer no advantage since you're name is always very visible (which is not the case of PS2). And champion are on free rotation, so eventually you'll be able to use them for free. For LoL to be more like PS2 it would need to sell the rune with real money. I would also argue that LoL make more money from people buying boost and champion than skin, if you have any proof that can counter this, by all mean enlighten me.

So seeing someone with a skin can only tell you that this person is ready to use money to buy champion. But seeing someone with a camo in PS2 tell you that he's ready to buy upgrade for his gun, which could be the reason why you lost. Which could be something people would rather avoid (I'm not saying 100% of the the PS2 population, I'm saying a number large enough that it's worth thinking about), so say because camo are obtainable with exp, you have let say 10 000 person who don't buy camo which would have otherwise brought them (instead they decide to grind for it, possibly playing more, making the server livelier), but in exchange 50 000 person decide to buy camo because now they can avoid broadcasting to other player that they payed.

Free rotation doesn't really enter into it. In both games, you can get game changing items through the cash shop or by earning them for free.

If you see someone with a custom skin in LoL, and they are using a character that is not in the current free character rotation, you may have the same assumption; that they may have paid for that character with real money and not gotten it through grinding.

But people don't care about this in LoL. It's a non issue. You are arguing over an issue that you made up, where a real life example proves it's not a real problem.

Hell, there are actual P2W games where people bitch about the overpowered items, yet those people bitching still play. So I highly doubt it's going to be a noteworthy problem in a game like PS2 which is not P2W.

[meiam]

Yes, I have a problem with what you are advocating. League of Legends has a character named Teemo.. He has a camo skin which "allows him to blend in" and gives him a cute army hat!

You can only get it by paying real cash. No one has cried foul. Why, you might ask? Because everyone in that core of players has gotten used to buying skins and no one cares.

But what if that camo also reduce the size of the health box above his head to 10% it's original size. Or make it that you could only see him if one of you're ally was closer to him that he would need to be without that special camo? Wouldn't some people start thinking "oh he only beat me cause he had that special camo" wether true or not it's irrelevant, it existing could lead to some people not buying the camo even if they want it purely because they like how it look.

Also never advocated giving camo for free or having all camo available with exp.

[Whiteknight]

Yes, I have a problem with what you are advocating. League of Legends has a character named Teemo.. He has a camo skin which "allows him to blend in" and gives him a cute army hat!

You can only get it by paying real cash. No one has cried foul. Why, you might ask? Because everyone in that core of players has gotten used to buying skins and no one cares.

I think that's because everyone either loves Teemo, or loathes his very existence and actively hunts anyone who play him.....

But, we're going on a tangent here-- back on topic.

You want to look special in your nifty non-issue uniform? Pay up. Plain and simple. I agree with the idea that all cosmetic changes should be from cash only, because the Dev's need to eat too. Buy a skin, feed a Dev.

[aceshigh]

But what if that camo also reduce the size of the health box above his head to 10% it's original size. Or make it that you could only see him if one of you're ally was closer to him that he would need to be without that special camo? Wouldn't some people start thinking "oh he only beat me cause he had that special camo" wether true or not it's irrelevant, it existing could lead to some people not buying the camo even if they want it purely because they like how it look.

Also never advocated giving camo for free or having all camo available with exp.

What if they sold an "I win button"?

[Jinxsey]

"Buy a skin, feed a Dev."

That is going on a t-shirt right there. Higby and Co. made a great game, I will be showing my support by throwing money at them. I am pleased that I will be rewarded for doing so by being given some camo options, I will probably be wearing the money obnoxious one I can find.

What if they sold an "I win button"?

"If".

[The Degenatron]

What if that desert variant you suggested blends just a little better than the standard desert camo? Should it then be free too?

Perception is reality. The advantage between Bright Yellow & Blue vs a desert camo pattern is obvious. The advantage between two different desert camo patterns that use the exact same color pallet (natural vs digital camo, for example) is next to impossible to decern. "Why would someone buy it, then?" you might ask. Perhaps it looks like the camo they actually wore in the service. I can see that being a powerful motivator for someone to purchase a particular camo pattern.

I do agree that it is buying an advantage, I stated it in a few posts above your own. Even if it doesn't blend that much, it still may be enough to make you hesitate and lose the jump. But if they just limited that to the camos, I would be ok with it. What are we talking, $3-$5?

Keep in mind that ANY money may be too much money for some - I'm talking about the 12-18 age range here. While us adults may cringle at the idea of children on the vox, the reality of monotizing a f2p game is that the free playing children of today are the paying adults of tomorrow - if they stay that long. They have to love the game, and one real fast way to kill that love is to make it feel like they are being punished for not having a credit card. And no one, I mean NO ONE, has a more sensitive perception of injustice than adolecents. Don't ask me why, it's something to do with neurological development.

The object, the overriding goal for SOE, should always be to avoid any wiff of impropriety. Even the slightest perception of p2w will kill this game in a heart beat.

[meiam]

I think that's because everyone either loves Teemo, or loathes his very existence and actively hunts anyone who play him.....

But, we're going on a tangent here-- back on topic.

You want to look special in your nifty non-issue uniform? Pay up. Plain and simple. I agree with the idea that all cosmetic changes should be from cash only, because the Dev's need to eat too. Buy a skin, feed a Dev.

This is actually a tangent. What I'm saying is:

Someone want to look nifty in non-issue uniform, BUT don't want to tell other he's ready to use money? He doesn't pay up. Don't buy skin, dev starve.

[Wahooo]

[QUOTE=meiam;743828some people start thinking "oh he only beat me cause he had that special camo" wether true or not it's irrelevant,[/QUOTE]

???

Whether it is true or not is 100% relevant!!!!!
If it is true, they have a legitimate gripe and the system needs to be looked at.
If it is not true then those people are typical internet children and can be ignored.

Your whole argument has been to cater to a group that really should be ignored.

[Kashis]

But what if that camo also reduce the size of the health box above his head to 10% it's original size. Or make it that you could only see him if one of you're ally was closer to him that he would need to be without that special camo? Wouldn't some people start thinking "oh he only beat me cause he had that special camo" wether true or not it's irrelevant, it existing could lead to some people not buying the camo even if they want it purely because they like how it look.

Also never advocated giving camo for free or having all camo available with exp.

PlanetSide 2 sells skins that will make your health bar 10% smaller? I didn't realize they even showed the health bar...

[Gogita]

I did not read the replies of this topic, but I've got one thing to say:

The game is freaking completely free! You will be able to even download it for free! Don't be such a cheapskate!

[Haro]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/AWMBeLrZoyw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It's been, what, a few weeks since this video was posted (again and again and again?)

Plenty of free to play games offer ways to earn most of their items and cosmetics in game for free. However, often the systems are set up so that cosmetic items are often worth only a few dollars on the market but could take dozens of hours to farm or craft. Someone mentioned TF2 before, perfect example. A single hat can go for anywhere from .99 cents to a couple of dollars (though I did once get a $100 dollar hat, but that's a whole different story. Don't judge.) And yet, every had has a tremendous cost in resources: you need to smelt dozens of weapons in order to get the chance to make a hat, and even then, it's pretty RNG. But other items are far more reasonable to require, if it's all a little random. Tiering the system and making rewards difficult to obtain through normal means but easy to get via the store creates even more incentive for purchasing. If a player has progressed a long way and has all the weapons he needs, he can save up his points for expensive cosmetics rather than being forced to buy them or use his points for other things that he doesn't want as much.

Also, everyone saying their going to do *this* or *that* to people who don't pay at all need to grow up. Seriously.

[Xyntech]

I did not read the replies of this topic, but I've got one thing to say:

The game is freaking completely free! You will be able to even download it for free! Don't be such a cheapskate!

Aye. The number if people who won't play because they mistakenly think it's P2W will not be as large as the number of people who wouldn't play because it had a box price or, worse, a monthly subscription.

SOE's current plan pays for the game, and keeps populations high. Right now, since we can all get in the door for free, I'm more interested in them figuring out more ways to help the game generate even more money than I am worried about boosting populations. Populations aren't going to be a problem, at least not until the "wow" factor wears off.

Keeping players past the first 6 months to a year after launch and paying for the servers and new content is important. Keeping a few pissants happy who will probably think the game is P2W even if they can earn camo for free is not important.

Edit: Pissants referring to players who don't pay a cent and bitch about not being handed everything for free, not players who play for free and appreciate the amazing game they get to play without spending any money at all.

[Dagron]

Built yourself quite a bridge here, huh?

[The Degenatron]

Yes, I have a problem with what you are advocating. League of Legends has a character named Teemo.. He has a camo skin which "allows him to blend in" and gives him a cute army hat!

You can only get it by paying real cash. No one has cried foul. Why, you might ask? Because everyone in that core of players has gotten used to buying skins and no one cares.

Never played LoL. And now that I know that, I never will. Look at what you said: "everyone in that core of players". That's the problem right there.

You don't want a product that's just for "the core players". That makes it inaccessible.

The fact that you told me that totally turns me off of that game. Who knows what other exploits that game has that only "the core players" know about? And the fact that is for sale just goes to show how easy it is to cross the line from f2p to p2w.

[meiam]

Aye. The number if people who won't play because they mistakenly think it's P2W will not be as large as the number of people who wouldn't play because it had a box price or, worse, a monthly subscription.

SOE's current plan pays for the game, and keeps populations high. Right now, since we can all get in the door for free, I'm more interested in them figuring out more ways to help the game generate even more money than I am worried about boosting populations. Populations aren't going to be a problem, at least not until the "wow" factor wears off.

Keeping players past the first 6 months to a year after launch and paying for the servers and new content is important. Keeping a few pissants happy who will probably think the game is P2W even if they can earn camo for free is not important.

Which is where I'm coming from, I'm arguing that having some camo available in shop for a large amount of exp would keep people playing longer to grind the camo while also opening a new market, the player who are ready to buy stuff with money and wanna buy camo but don't want to let other people know it.

[Immigrant]

1) Some people might want to play with camo, but don't want to be labelled as payer, so having some way to obtain camo without money would allow them to buy them will still leaving doubt in other people that maybe they just got theirs without paying.

2) They might actually give advantage, I'd rather have a desert camo than being bright blue/pink in a desert fight.

First of all kid go and troll elsewhere...

1. What's wrong with paying and supporting a game you like? It's not like they will be selling power items. :rolleyes:

2. That's a not a power item no matter how you turn it and your faction color will still be distinguishable.

No, camo should not be obtainable by ingame currency ... if you want some camo which is tbh mostly cosmetical spit up some cash.

[aceshigh]

Which is where I'm coming from, I'm arguing that having some camo available in shop for a large amount of exp would keep people playing longer to grind the camo while also opening a new market, the player who are ready to buy stuff with money and wanna buy camo but don't want to let other people know it.

So basically you want the camos but don't want to pay for them. I hope this is the case, because that is the only way any of your arguments make any bit of sense.

[Kashis]

Never played LoL. And now that I know that, I never will. Look at what you said: "everyone in that core of players". That's the problem right there.

You don't want a product that's just for "the core players". That makes it inaccessible.

The fact that you told me that totally turns me off of that game. Who knows what other exploits that game has that only "the core players" know about? And the fact that is for sale just goes to show how easy it is to cross the line from f2p to p2w.

Quotations means SARCASM!

[meiam]

So basically you want the camos but don't want to pay for them. I hope this is the case, because that is the only way any of your arguments make any bit of sense.

Hum no I want this game to be successful and that involve getting the largest amount amount of money out of the player base.

[Wahooo]

Hum no I want this game to be successful and that involve getting the largest amount amount of money out of the player base.

By making it so you don't have to spend money.

FLAWLESS LOGIC!!

[Whiteknight]

Never played LoL. And now that I know that, I never will. Look at what you said: "everyone in that core of players". That's the problem right there.

You don't want a product that's just for "the core players". That makes it inaccessible.

The fact that you told me that totally turns me off of that game. Who knows what other exploits that game has that only "the core players" know about? And the fact that is for sale just goes to show how easy it is to cross the line from f2p to p2w.

As a LoL player, I feel the need to correct a little perceived issue here...
Teemo can go invisible, regardless of what skin you use. The cammo does not make him less visible on the map. The cammo does not change anything about the play. He has a passive ability that lets him turn invisible if he stands still for a few seconds, and can drop annoying invisible mushrooms all around the map. The skin is purely cosmetic, and shows that you supported the company that makes the game.

The closest you can get to 'pay2win' in that game are the boosts which give you a little bit more in-game currency per game, so you can fill out your rune pages faster. It doesn't add power, it just makes it quicker. So what's the primary difference between someone who pays for a boost and someone who doesn't? More experience & time spent playing -- typically translating into a better player -- for the person who doesn't pay for the boosts.

[The Degenatron]

To suggest that camoflage patterns composed largely of bright primary colours is power, is a little above the bar for suspension of disbelief.

That's not what I'm talking about:

http://www.planetside-universe.com/media/album/mp52rz6sp6/20120203_4f2cb47998f31.jpg

I'm talking about the nature colored camo patterns.

[Immigrant]

So basically you want the camos but don't want to pay for them.e.

Yup, that's gotta be it. I'm actually very glad camo are cash only shop items - if things were different we'd see a whole bunch of asshats in zebra and leopard camo running about. They are somewhat less annoying when you know they are paying asshats who actually support the game financially.

[meiam]

By making it so you don't have to spend money.

FLAWLESS LOGIC!!

By that logic company are actively losing money by distributing demo of game for free. Heck by that logic PS2 should be a subscription based game.

[Wahooo]

That's not what I'm talking about:

http://www.planetside-universe.com/media/album/mp52rz6sp6/20120203_4f2cb47998f31.jpg

I'm talking about the nature colored camo patterns.

OMG!!! you are so right!!! It took me about 30 seconds to find the mag-rider in that pic. Camo is OP and it does add obvious power and totally made me hesitate before shooting.

[The Degenatron]

Quotations means SARCASM!

I wasn't being sarcastic. I really meant the core players.

[Meriv]

Yes, I have a problem with what you are advocating. League of Legends has a character named Teemo.. He has a camo skin which "allows him to blend in" and gives him a cute army hat!

You can only get it by paying real cash. No one has cried foul. Why, you might ask? Because everyone in that core of players has gotten used to buying skins and no one cares.

Just in case are you sure you are not confusing with his passive 3 sec on hold and he gets invisible. Lol is the last game p2w since it just sells boost and estetics skins.......

If i am wrong correct me but just in case i think you got wrong information....

http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/champions/17/teemo_the_swift_scout
.

P.S. The only camo that looks usefull is the HA one, and to be honest after seing that many Tk in E3 with a small battle i don't even imagine what will be a 2000 players continent, i would prefer to make myself stand more in that caos(see for example ww1 methods to see where your unit was, they used some reflection material in their back so they wouldn't get friendly fire while advancing) .

[aceshigh]

OMG!!! you are so right!!! It took me about 30 seconds to find the mag-rider in that pic. Camo is OP and it does add obvious power and totally made me hesitate before shooting.

There was a video posted of a MAX running around that would have been harder to see. Also imagine if you were 200-300 meters away or above. It makes a difference.

[Dagron]

I weep for humanity.

Seriously, how can you guys not know he's trolling when he says stuff like "people are ashamed to admit they spent money"?

People who have the means and the money to spend on a game are mature enough to not be ashamed of it.

[Meriv]

There was a video posted of a MAX running around that would have been harder to see. Also imagine if you were 200-300 meters away or above. It makes a difference.

Can you link the video pls because for what i remember the desert camo at tr covered just few spots 302 Found as saw here, the black stays and the camo doesn't have enought space to "break shapes" (because that is what tricks the eye)

[The Degenatron]

OMG!!! you are so right!!! It took me about 30 seconds to find the mag-rider in that pic. Camo is OP and it does add obvious power and totally made me hesitate before shooting.

Actually, it it was off in the distance, or nestled into a rocky outcropping, in this picture:

http://www.planetside-universe.com/media/album/mp52rz6sp6/20120419_4f90b2a837ff5.jpg

...then it would indeed be harder to see. Especially in low-light conditions in a fast moving reaver. But if it's the default purple, it would stick out like a sore thumb.

Any camo effect breaks down when you get up close to an object because you mind can interprete the striaght lines and edges.

Again, I don't see how I'm being unreasonable here. While the OPs concerns about "stigmatizing payers" seems rediculous to me, the idea that people will interprete effective camo as an unfair paid advantage seems like an absolutely realistic concern.

And the fact that so many seem to be adament that this small compromise be withheld from free users makes me a little dubious about some of you and whether you really are against p2w models.

[Kashis]

Just in case are you sure you are not confusing with his passive 3 sec on hold and he gets invisible. Lol is the last game p2w since it just sells boost and estetics skins.......

If i am wrong correct me but just in case i think you got wrong information....

http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/champions/17/teemo_the_swift_scout
.

P.S. The only camo that looks usefull is the HA one, and to be honest after seing that many Tk in E3 with a small battle i don't even imagine what will be a 2000 players continent, i would prefer to make myself stand more in that caos(see for example ww1 methods to see where your unit was, they used some reflection material in their back so they wouldn't get friendly fire while advancing) .

In Iraq we used IR patches and "cat eyes" on the back of our helmets.

[Toppopia]

I can imagine the devs will let us get default camo for ingame cash, and then if we pay (real cash) we get better camo for those situations and unique camo, so say i am a non-payer (i most likely will be) and i unlock desert camo, this is the default camo so it will be useful, but not as useful as that payer over there who bought giraffe or better desert camo.

This lets people still have camo, and it gives us a reason to pay for camo, so we can hide better. Since if i can't have camo that lets me blend in easier, then whats the point? (Besides looking unique/cool).

[The Degenatron]

I can imagine the devs will let us get default camo for ingame cash, and then if we pay (real cash) we get better camo for those situations and unique camo, so say i am a non-payer (i most likely will be) and i unlock desert camo, this is the default camo so it will be useful, but not as useful as that payer over there who bought giraffe or better desert camo.

This lets people still have camo, and it gives us a reason to pay for camo, so we can hide better. Since if i can't have camo that lets me blend in easier, then whats the point? (Besides looking unique/cool).

To look unique and cool.

No, seriously. You should never be paying for things that give you an advantage in this game.

Period.

[Hmr85]

I am of the opinion that if you want anything outside of the default look of the class you should pay for it. Camo should not be free.

[The Degenatron]

As a LoL player, I feel the need to correct a little perceived issue here...
Teemo can go invisible, regardless of what skin you use. The cammo does not make him less visible on the map. The cammo does not change anything about the play. He has a passive ability that lets him turn invisible if he stands still for a few seconds, and can drop annoying invisible mushrooms all around the map. The skin is purely cosmetic, and shows that you supported the company that makes the game.

The closest you can get to 'pay2win' in that game are the boosts which give you a little bit more in-game currency per game, so you can fill out your rune pages faster. It doesn't add power, it just makes it quicker. So what's the primary difference between someone who pays for a boost and someone who doesn't? More experience & time spent playing -- typically translating into a better player -- for the person who doesn't pay for the boosts.

It definately sounds like you know more about it than the other guy. I guess he was just BSing.

And for the record, I have absolutely no problem with "boosting". I played Global Agenda for a little over a year and had no problem paying for boosters, and playing against people with boosters running. That has no effect on what you can do in-game.

[The Degenatron]

I am of the opinion that if you want anything outside of the default look of the class you should pay for it. Camo should not be free.

Then if that's the case, then there should be no "natural" or "effective" camo.

Period.

[erunion]

If there is a problem with their customization micro-transactions its that everything they have shown so far is goofy. I don't want to play a game where everyone is running around in animal print.

Can't we just buy sharks teeth for our reavers and various other cool stuff?

[Bags]

Never played LoL. And now that I know that, I never will. Look at what you said: "everyone in that core of players". That's the problem right there.

You don't want a product that's just for "the core players". That makes it inaccessible.

The fact that you told me that totally turns me off of that game. Who knows what other exploits that game has that only "the core players" know about? And the fact that is for sale just goes to show how easy it is to cross the line from f2p to p2w.

Yes, I have a problem with what you are advocating. League of Legends has a character named Teemo.. He has a camo skin which "allows him to blend in" and gives him a cute army hat!

You can only get it by paying real cash. No one has cried foul. Why, you might ask? Because everyone in that core of players has gotten used to buying skins and no one cares.

FYI, teemo's passive allows him to go invisible, it's not based on a skin.

League of Legends Recon Teemo Skin - YouTube

[The Degenatron]

If there is a problem with their customization micro-transactions its that everything they have shown so far is goofy. I don't want to play a game where everyone is running around in animal print.

Can't we just buy sharks teeth for our reavers and various other cool stuff?

I too would like shark teeth on my Reaver.

[Meriv]

I think best model is Wot one, you get for resources the 2 colors camo (you won't unlock forever them but will have them for tot time.) while for paying the 3 colors one (more effective). Even if in Wot it doesnt influence the gameplay since it has his own spot schematics.

[Wahooo]

Then if that's the case, then there should be no "natural" or "effective" camo.

Period.

From what i've seen so far, which will differ from playing i'm sure, none of the camo is really "effective" camo. That is pretty much my point.

[Rexdezi]

no. /thread

[Littleman]

I'd say most skins (not just camos, but also factional armor patterns and designs) and other wardrobe attachments (like a trench coat under the armor for arctic warfare or just for looking elite) should be RMTed from a cash shop.

However, I wouldn't put it past SOE to give everyone some freebies, akin to the color changes, helmet/beret and earpiece/sun glasses a player receives as they ranked up in Planetside 1. Letting people toy around with some customization should wet their appetite.

[Kashis]

FYI, teemo's passive allows him to go invisible, it's not based on a skin.

League of Legends Recon Teemo Skin - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=211tHCEjj3k)

ok poor choice of words on my part i didnt mean the camo skin gave him the cloaking ability... sorry.

[Duff]

FYI, teemo's passive allows him to go invisible, it's not based on a skin.

League of Legends Recon Teemo Skin - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=211tHCEjj3k)

http://i.imgur.com/o7CiK.png

[ChipMHazard]

I am of the opinion that if you want anything outside of the default look of the class you should pay for it. Camo should not be free.

I agree.
There's also the possibility that the easier it becomes to gain camo without paying for it the less likely players will be to stay with faction colours.
The majority of players probably won't be spending money and I really prefer it that way.

[Greeniegriz]

Camos for free or purchased with in-game resource? Maybe a few basic one.

Most should only be available to those who wish to support the game with their wallet.

Cheers,

GG

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Turdicus]

No, seriously. You should never be paying for things that give you an advantage in this game.

Period.

Is it REALLY that big of a deal for you? This is such a minor case of purchasable advantage. I mean realistically I feel as if the impact camo will have on the game is so slight nobody is gonna give a crap. Even with the desert camos the Vanu players are still purple in plenty of places, and it might break up a silhouette (barely) but if its a problem from the air in a reaver then you arent using your aoe rockets correctly. This is you: :cry:

[Kashis]

Did you guys see the Skull helmet camo on the TR max? That shit was bad ass. I hope he doesn't blend in with the dead people too much, so I know who to shoot.

Nonetheless it was a really cool helmet skin.

[Greeniegriz]

Did you guys see the Skull helmet camo on the TR max? That shit was bad ass. I hope he doesn't blend in with the dead people too much, so I know who to shoot.

Nonetheless it was a really cool helmet skin.

Oh yea, looked sick. Reminded me of one of the Halo Reach Spartans.

Cheers,

GG

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[The Degenatron]

From what i've seen so far, which will differ from playing i'm sure, none of the camo is really "effective" camo. That is pretty much my point.

Which is why I was talking about the conditions under which a camo type would be viewed here. (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=743919&postcount=109)

And why I was talking about how critical perception is for a f2p game here (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=743836&postcount=84).

Is it REALLY that big of a deal for you? This is such a minor case of purchasable advantage. I mean realistically I feel as if the impact camo will have on the game is so slight nobody is gonna give a crap. Even with the desert camos the Vanu players are still purple in plenty of places, and it might break up a silhouette (barely) but if its a problem from the air in a reaver then you arent using your aoe rockets correctly. This is you: :cry:

It is important to remember that niether you, I, nor anyone is the the final arbiter of what is fair for anyone else. You look at the desert camo and say "that's not effective", but you leave off the "to me." And that's a very important part. Because while it may be fine for you, it may not be fine for someone else. If it's close to the line, then it either needs to be removed or be free. And since I think the jungle and desert camos look pretty badass, I'd perfer they be free, even though I will abolutely buy every single camo that is offered for sale.

And in a business model where you make no money unless people feel you are being a 100% honest broker, then how can any of us say that it would be ok to allow something that could even possibly be construde as "unfair for sale"?

Frankly, I'm a little agast that so few expect SOE to hold a zero-tolerance rule towards anything that could be even remotely considered p2w. I honestly don't understand why any of you would say "this is where it's ok if I get a little edge."

[Sephirex]

I can't believe this thread has gone on this long.

[Neurotoxin]

Only a few basic camo patterns for each continent should be available for Auraxium.

There should be items that nobody can buy, like special anniversary gear, maybe dog tags for beta participants, etc.

Merits should be able to be displayed on the shoulder, chest, and possibly helmet.

But in terms of making all camo and aesthetics available for Auraxium, they'd have to put in a subscription to justify that. Aesthetics are one of the major selling points for this game. Suppose that 1 in every 100 (or less) will buy an aesthetic item when it comes out, that means every new aesthetic items generates sale price times 1% of the player population. With 20k players and $5 items, that's $1,000 for zebra stripes, $1,000 for chicken feathers, $1,000 for skulls on glass visors and cockpits, etc etc. And I'm sure those are nowhere near realistic numbers, just giving an example of how aesthetic items are meant to be big sellers.

[Crator]

I understand the concern here that certain camos MIGHT give tactical advantages but how's aboot we just wait and see if that truly is the case or not. If it is, and you really feel the same as you do now, then blow up the DEVS with valid argument points. And get some like-minded folks to support the cause. I don't see why people wouldn't stand behind you if you could prove it. But right now? We haven't even seen how the game plays out?

[The Degenatron]

Camos for free or purchased with in-game resource? Maybe a few basic one.

Most should only be available to those who wish to support the game with their wallet.

Cheers,

GG

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

Only a few basic camo patterns for each continent should be available for Auraxium.

There should be items that nobody can buy, like special anniversary gear, maybe dog tags for beta participants, etc.

Merits should be able to be displayed on the shoulder, chest, and possibly helmet.

But in terms of making all camo and aesthetics available for Auraxium, they'd have to put in a subscription to justify that. Aesthetics are one of the major selling points for this game. Suppose that 1 in every 100 (or less) will buy an aesthetic item when it comes out, that means every new aesthetic items generates sale price times 1% of the player population. With 20k players and $5 items, that's $1,000 for zebra stripes, $1,000 for chicken feathers, $1,000 for skulls on glass visors and cockpits, etc etc. And I'm sure those are nowhere near realistic numbers, just giving an example of how aesthetic items are meant to be big sellers.

These two comments give me hope that people can be reasonable.

"A few basics" is exactly what I'm talking about:

1 Jungle
1 Desert
1 Arctic

Everything else would absolutely be a cash-only item. I'm talking about a basic level of camo that is as effective as any other "natural" camo. That's it and nothing more. 3 additional camos are not going to break SOEs bank. It's only fair.

All of the cool stuff should most certainly be either cash-only, or special merit (as Nuerotoxin said).

I really feel that's not unreasonable at all, and really I don't understand the vehement opposition.

[Littleman]

Here's an idea: RMTed camo is permanent.

In-game purchased camo is essentially a temporary side grade, good only for that life, and expensive.

Through really, I'd prefer to tell the freebies to pay up or man up. People will cry foul over the tiniest things when they lose because they're the best the world has to offer in their minds, so it's not that they suck...

I'd prefer to see faction colors over camos on a majority of the soldiers in the field. I also expect most skins in the shop will be patterns in faction colors. Actually, I expect a lot more in the way of physical, attachable bits from a cosmetic shop than mere skins. Examples include helmets, armor pieces for arms, legs, chest, shoulders, faceplates, etc. Ye ol' cycler (both PS1's and the early PS2 cycler.) The cash shop won't sustain PS2 with a paltry selection of camo options even with a price as high as $10 a pop.

[erunion]

These two comments give me hope that people can be reasonable.

"A few basics" is exactly what I'm talking about:

1 Jungle
1 Desert
1 Arctic



No thanks. I want to keep empire colors, not have everyone in the same camo.

[jepaul]

but don't want to be labelled as payer,

Did he, what?

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk281/duhflushtech/GIF%20Files/2qjc8yx.gifhttp://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk281/duhflushtech/GIF%20Files/2qjc8yx.gifhttp://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk281/duhflushtech/GIF%20Files/2qjc8yx.gif

What does labelled as a payer mean?



If they offered a $500 camo I would buy it. Just to be made fun of and simply because I could. For no other reason. Absolutely they need to charge. I hope they charge for a lot more. This game needs cash to sustain itself and maintain everything. If you love this game so much spend $10 freaking dollars to support it. I bet you are between the ages of 16-27. Am I correct. I need to use this example of what is wrong with that generation for a lesson plan.

[The Degenatron]

Here's an idea: RMTed camo is permanent.

In-game purchased camo is essentially a temporary side grade, good only for that life, and expensive.

Through really, I'd prefer to tell the freebies to pay up or man up. People will cry foul over the tiniest things when they lose because they're the best the world has to offer in their minds, so it's not that they suck...

I'd prefer to see faction colors over camos on a majority of the soldiers in the field. I also expect most skins in the shop will be patterns in faction colors. Actually, I expect a lot more in the way of physical, attachable bits from a cosmetic shop than mere skins. Examples include helmets, armor pieces for arms, legs, chest, shoulders, faceplates, etc. Ye ol' cycler (both PS1's and the early PS2 cycler.) The cash shop won't sustain PS2 with a paltry selection of camo options even with a price as high as $10 a pop.

That's a pretty cool idea. Although, I'm with you: people SHOULD pay up to get the good stuff.

Maybe even split the difference: Only the 3 basic camo would be availible for the "one life purchase". As long as they are cheap enough (on par with grenades), then why not? That seems great.

But all the really cool stuff, you have to pay for.


No thanks. I want to keep empire colors, not have everyone in the same camo.

Well, it's too late for that. The camos are most certainly going to be in the game.

And really? You're against the idea of your platoon getting their arctic gear on for an assault on Ceryshen? That seems...odd.

[erunion]

And really? You're against the idea of your platoon getting their arctic gear on for an assault on Ceryshen? That seems...odd.

Its planetside2. What game play advantage does usable camouflage give that out weighs that big a deviation from planetside-ness?

If there is an unlockable skin that is an upgrade over default faction colors, faction colors would go extinct.

[AzK]

If the game is good i'll buy everything, not just camos but even those weapon and vehicle unlocks that will allow it, so i can spare more personal resource to spawn more vehicles use more medikits more grenades etc.

Will people get mad and start babbling about how i'm shit because i buy things etc when i'll kill them? Sure. Do i care? Nope. They always come up with something anyway. If you pay you're an ebayer, if you don't pay but still win you only play in unfair conditions, if you're not paying and also play with even odds you are probably straight up cheating.

That's a big if anyway, it will be a while before they convince me (if they convince me) that the bf3 gameplay and classes system aren't terrible compared to how the original game was. The idea that only 1 class can heal only 1 class can repair is beyond madness from my point of view, those are just the 2 main things, but it applies to everything really. The lack of inventory is also pretty sad, looting stuff the way you did in ps1 was cool not to mention weapon switching, nade switching etc etc. Game got simply dumbed down to appeal to cod/bf3 people, and i'm not sure i want to pay a single cent to a company that turned a great game into something that has anything to do with those 2 titles. If they prove me wrong, i'll pay.

[AzK]

And really? You're against the idea of your platoon getting their arctic gear on for an assault on Ceryshen? That seems...odd.

Well, i am too to be honest, camos only foster camping and detract greatly from the empire theme thingy, it's not that strange that some people are against it.

I absolutely HATED camos the very moment they were announced, i would have rather they sold different patterns/themes but ALWAYS with the empire colors say like br 7 14 25 differences, or visual stuff like the pads from command ranks in ps1. Visor colors, sunglasses, no helmet, berets, hats whatever, but not SHARED camos.

Having nc tr vs persons with the same camo looking exactly the same color wise, and differing only for their "silhouettes" like they called them at e3, is a pretty big deal. Hate that shit.

So to the OP question: no, i'd rather not have camos unlockable in other ways, for the same reason someone else mentioned, empire colors would go extinct.

[Flaropri]

I understand the idea that camo being only obtainable with money will finance part of the system, and that making it money only you'll supposedly get more money, but I've been thinking that maybe it's counterproductive. Two things:

1) Some people might want to play with camo, but don't want to be labelled as payer, so having some way to obtain camo without money would allow them to buy them will still leaving doubt in other people that maybe they just got theirs without paying.

2) They might actually give advantage, I'd rather have a desert camo than being bright blue/pink in a desert fight.

I think it would be good if some camo would be obtainable with just exp like the gear/cert and have some that would be brought only with money. Also maybe have some that you could get trough special achievement/event but also be brought with money.

1: That's a stupid argument. There's no shame in paying for something, especially not camo. As long as PS2 marketers stay true to not selling power, it's not a problem. Anyone that tries to insult people for paying for something is a tool, probably jealous, and on that topic at least should be ignored.

2. This I actually agree with, but only with specific camo. Obviously, Zebra, Giraffe, "Bacon MAX" and similar "camouflage" isn't actually that useful (unless we get a Zebra continent, even in the snow areas Zebra camo isn't going to be effective), but desert camo or jungle camo could be very easily useful... as long as your nameplate doesn't show up floating over your head all the time when otherwise visible (such as only when "spotted" or whatever).

That said, it is such a relatively small pool of camo that's actually useful, I think it's not a problem to pay for them even if you pay for nothing else, particularly since getting SC doesn't necessarily require a credit card in many regions.

It would be very neat if they figured they could afford to let those few useful camo be earned in game, but I can understand if they decide against it.


Side note: As I understand faction colors are woven into the camo sets, so they are still there, if not necessarily as prominent. I don't think that is too much of a concern.

[Purple]

I bet you are between the ages of 16-27. Am I correct. I need to use this example of what is wrong with that generation for a lesson plan.
dont put us all in the same boat. i already have $150 in SOE cash for this game.

[MrKWalmsley]

I really doubt camo will be there primary source of income, someone mentioned tribes, played 10-20 hour of it, never saw a single camo, so either tribes is not making any money, or most player are buying weapon with money.

Right, are you actually a troll? Because in order to make such a claim in comparison to planetside you have to either be a troll, or a dribbling idiot. The reason why the majority of tribes income comes from new weapons is because they are gameplay mechanics, and give you extra power.

HOWEVER! On every single occasion that they have had the chance, the devs have repeatedly said that they WILL NOT be selling in game items, or weapons for real cash. ONLY cosmetics, therefore, their primary source of income will be camo, since there will be nothing game-play wise to dominate the market!

So lets say tribes took all gameplay items off the market, what would happen? The primary source of income through that means would become camo and other cosmetics. You cannot be serious when you make this argument!

If you are serious then it's likely you have an ulterior motive, so stop beating around the bush and just come out with the true cruz of your argument (shown lurking in the passage I quoted) and just state outright that your true purpose for this thread is to promote a pay-to-win market. Because only then would it be likely that camo would step down from being a primary source of income, and only then would your idea be valid. Either that, or you did not know that PS2 will not have a P2W income model, in which case, do just the slightest bit of research next time before you start threads regarding your ideas to drastically change the way SOE intends to make money from this game.

[Exmortius]

nope. basic colors for people who don't pay. you can see right away who the premium supporters are then. you will be able to tell which guys are the true hardcore supporters. the ones who truly keep the servers up and the game alive. f2p is great for keeping the pops up and making it easy to get friends involved but you want the really show support visually make em bust out the wallet for camos, lights, logos, etc. just my opinion. i would like to know when i'm fighting a guy in camo i know who the die hard players are.

[Shlomoshun]

I think at some point, the argument gets down to one of splitting hairs and not worth really worrying about too much. While I get that from a purely logical perspective, there is no way that all equipment/skins/sidegrades can actually be totally equal, in terms of balance, they are so nearly equal that they basically round up to it.

Sure, cammo may offer a tiny advantage, but it's really not measurable in any particular matchup. Sure, over thousands of kills, and hundreds of hours of gameplay, it might amount to a 1% advantage, for a 50.5%/49.5% kill ratio, all other things being equal....

but on an instant by instant, 1v1, constantly changing battlefield, there is no measurable difference within the confines of a game where all things, in fact, are not equal.

That said, I actually do see where the OP is coming from. Some people aren't going to pay squat to play, it's that simple. But even if they don't, they are still integral to the success of the game, becasue they give the players with money someone to kill/team up with. SO you still need them to continue to play over a long period of time. How can you do that? By offering them some sort of carrot on a stick. A few minor things like basic cammos or some of the pretty standard sidegrades are a great carrot to keep them playing long enough to let your paying customers kill them several times with the variety of sidegrades they continue to purchase...

there are lots of financial models for MMO's, but the one thing that kills all of them regardless of the financial model is the lack of a player base.

[Meriv]

I think at some point, the argument gets down to one of splitting hairs and not worth really worrying about too much. While I get that from a purely logical perspective, there is no way that all equipment/skins/sidegrades can actually be totally equal, in terms of balance, they are so nearly equal that they basically round up to it.

Sure, cammo may offer a tiny advantage, but it's really not measurable in any particular matchup. Sure, over thousands of kills, and hundreds of hours of gameplay, it might amount to a 1% advantage, for a 50.5%/49.5% kill ratio, all other things being equal....

but on an instant by instant, 1v1, constantly changing battlefield, there is no measurable difference within the confines of a game where all things, in fact, are not equal.

That said, I actually do see where the OP is coming from. Some people aren't going to pay squat to play, it's that simple. But even if they don't, they are still integral to the success of the game, becasue they give the players with money someone to kill/team up with. SO you still need them to continue to play over a long period of time. How can you do that? By offering them some sort of carrot on a stick. A few minor things like basic cammos or some of the pretty standard sidegrades are a great carrot to keep them playing long enough to let your paying customers kill them several times with the variety of sidegrades they continue to purchase...

there are lots of financial models for MMO's, but the one thing that kills all of them regardless of the financial model is the lack of a player base.

I totaly agree just wanted to point out that 1% is quite a lot in a MMO, in Wot french tanks have been nerfed just because they had a 3-4% more average winning rate in average of all players.

Edit: the 1% note isn't to say that the advantage done by camos is too big but just the number would be lower

[Haro]

Given the direction this thread has taken, I feel like this image is totally appropriate.


<img src="http://ballsontheline.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/ali.jpg" width="513" height="342" >

[CorvicM]

Given the direction this thread has taken, I feel like this image is totally appropriate.


<img src="http://ballsontheline.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/ali.jpg" width="513" height="342" >


OMG i cant see the bush its wearing too good of camo :p

[jepaul]

dont put us all in the same boat. i already have $150 in SOE cash for this game.

Touche, I stand corrected and I should not stereotype. But on average, that age bracket has a sense of entitlement. You sir are the exception.

[Otleaz]

Sorry, but I don't play competitive games to win because of the items I buy. I don't want to win with my wallet... If it gives someone an edge, it doesn't belong on the cash shop.

Either remove effective camo, or make it so anyone can buy it.

[Envenom]

I really doubt camo will be there primary source of income, someone mentioned tribes, played 10-20 hour of it, never saw a single camo, so either tribes is not making any money, or most player are buying weapon with money. And I think one of the reason is that if someone shoot you with a better weapon (let's not kid ourselves, not all weapon will be equal) there's no way to know if that person got that weapon by grinding it or by buying, but a camo you know 100% the person brought it.

Now if you want to buy a camo that is only possible to be brought with money to broadcast that you support the game, those should exist, that was in my first post, heck they could even have a camo that says on the chest "I payed for this because I support PS2". But some people don't want the label and won't spend money because they'll want to avoid it, so not making money were you could have made some.

Also camo aren't supposed to make you invisible in knife fight, there supposed to make it harder to aim at long range and make it harder to spot you at very long range. If there's a green spot on a green background 5 km away, it's pretty hard to spot it, but if there's a bright purple, then it's much easier.

Why would you NOT want people to know you spent money and support the welfare of the game??? Your sense of logic is flawed to me.

[Stew]

Pay to bling for the win Gimme my shiny golden pistol :D ;)

[Striker KOJ]

I really doubt camo will be there primary source of income, someone mentioned tribes, played 10-20 hour of it, never saw a single camo, so either tribes is not making any money, or most player are buying weapon with money. And I think one of the reason is that if someone shoot you with a better weapon (let's not kid ourselves, not all weapon will be equal) there's no way to know if that person got that weapon by grinding it or by buying, but a camo you know 100% the person brought it.

Now if you want to buy a camo that is only possible to be brought with money to broadcast that you support the game, those should exist, that was in my first post, heck they could even have a camo that says on the chest "I payed for this because I support PS2". But some people don't want the label and won't spend money because they'll want to avoid it, so not making money were you could have made some.

Also camo aren't supposed to make you invisible in knife fight, there supposed to make it harder to aim at long range and make it harder to spot you at very long range. If there's a green spot on a green background 5 km away, it's pretty hard to spot it, but if there's a bright purple, then it's much easier.

I stopped reading around page 4 because this conversation was going no where.

Personally, I think that YOU, meiam, are the one harboring a stigma against "payers" and "buyers". I think YOU are the one who wants to buy whatever, but not get labeled a "buyer". I think YOU are the one who wants a cop out excuse that "it's available in game, so you don't know if I just play better than you".

Or

You just dont want to pay for shit, and you are trying to get things you are interested in put into the game attainable for free by some means so you can get what you want.

Either way, I think you're the problem.

PS. Forgive the hostility, but had a long day at work and reading this was trying my patience. Nobody gives a damn if somebody paid for something. Nobody should give a damn for being called a "payer".

PPS. Those terms are retarded.

[Shade Millith]

2) They might actually give advantage, I'd rather have a desert camo than being bright blue/pink in a desert fight.

The camo's in E3 weren't the final ones. The Dev's have already announced that they're all going to be tinted to your empires colours.

Even with a desert/zebra camo, you're still going to be bright purple/red/blue.

[Meriv]

Why would you NOT want people to know you spent money and support the welfare of the game??? Your sense of logic is flawed to me.

a bit out of topic

because some ppl hunt you down, idk what it is but some of my best Wot memories are me taking down premium tankers of higher tier, and it is the first thing it comes to my mind (pz4 taking down a lowe) and it is unconcius. It feels better taking them down, don't ask me why, while others me included go to them because premiun=exp boost=less experience = easier prey

pls don't flam me I am just being honest but won't pay a session with my psicologist to understand why I love obliterating Lowes and Kv5(premiun tanks)

[Ragefighter]

I would bet that there are some kind of rewards for obtaining a big achievement of some sort, like a camo maybe. would be neat if the hard to get achievements granted a unique looking appearance item.