Prone and lean

[Poser]

It is a simple question.

[Gogita]

These subjects already have topics, search them. Easy answer.

[Bags]

"Tactical mechanics" is an odd way of spelling camping mechanics.

[Poser]

These subjects already have topics, search them. Easy answer.

I did. There hasn't been a thread about this in months. Rules like that just alienate new users.

[Gandhi]

There was a 50 page behemoth of a thread about prone just last week, I think it ended up being 66% against.

[fishirboy]

i am sorry sir Beta must dissed over ALL!!!

[Razicator]

I'm confused about the poll, anybody else?

Doesn't the option for "Prone should be added" say the exact same thing as the option for "No, to lean?"

Even more confusing considering that you can only choose one option...

[PlaceboCyanide]

I knew that prone wasn't in, but I didn't even consider the lack of leaning. IMHO that is a must for all shooters nowadays.

[Bags]

I knew that prone wasn't in, but I didn't even consider the lack of leaning. IMHO that is a must for all shooters nowadays.

What modern multiplayer shooter has Lean? :rolleyes:

[bjorntju1]

There was a 50 page behemoth of a thread about prone just last week, I think it ended up being 66% against.

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=41865
66 pages even...

[Immigrant]

I did. There hasn't been a thread about this in months. Rules like that just alienate new users.

No you didn't, last one was closed a week ago... a community gave it's opinion about prone there. Lean wouldn't fare much better.

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=41865

Lean and prone add nothing to the game except more camping.

[Zar]

I did. There hasn't been a thread about this in months. Rules like that just alienate new users. well no to both and there have been many polls on prone and it was voted down by majority i will give you lean as a new one but nah dude this stuff won't fly here go back to cod or bf =x also props for making the no to both option sound like we don't want tactical mechanics >.< lean and prone are not *TACTICAL* in shooters their spawn and abuse mechanic planetside will be tactical far more then cod and bf could ever be xD. ps if you did get this in id just camp you in a air craft and bomb you till you raged quit would not help you =3

[zomg]

It's interesting that people seem to always be absolutely for or against prone and/or lean, as if it's a completely black or white type question with no shades of gray.

[Phellix]

There was a 50 page behemoth of a thread about prone just last week, I think it ended up being 66% against.

this. please close this before a war breaks out

[Poser]

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=41865
66 pages even...

lol didn't come up. I looked everything was from 2011. My bad I guess... :eek:

[ChargerCarl]

prone: maybe
lean: mostly useless

[Coreldan]

"Tactical mechanics" is an odd way of spelling camping mechanics.

Leaning is perhaps even more important for the attacker than it is for the defender. The lack of leaning will pretty much always give the advantage in the situation to the defender.

My personal vote was no to prone, yes to lean.

I don't mind prone in the usual shooters I play. In fact I sorta expect it in most games, but somehow I feel PS doesnt need it. Leaning I would like to have though. It's just stupid having to expose your whole body when carefully wanting to look around the corner.

[Landtank]

I'm not against lean, definitely no prone, but lean has always been a tactic. You only call it camping when you get owned by it and don't know how to counter it, IE: grenades.

[I SandRock]

Actually saying no to lean would make you a CoD or BF kinda player, those games favor running and gunning over tactical gameplay such as games like Rainbow Six or Ghost Recon, which as far as I know are the only games who have lean.

I like the idea of lean but I don't think it will work in Planetside, not enough walls for everyone to hide behind. And it will kind of look retarded to look out from the wall of your base and see 400 enemies all behind rocks/trees except for their faces sticking out of the sides haha.

[zomg]

You only call it camping when you get owned by it and don't know how to counter it, IE: grenades.

This.

[Toppopia]

No you didn't, last one was closed a week ago... a community gave it's opinion about prone there. Lean wouldn't fare much better.

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=41865

Lean and prone add nothing to the game except more camping.

But this game is about defending bases, so its not camping, its called defending a base/tower/whatever, kind of hate how most people say "You're sitting in one place killing me? You must be a camping noob."
But i guess it is a personal view, if you die to someone, probably everyone's first reaction will be "Camper!!". Which is understandable, but now that you know he is there, you can now proceed to kill him or think of a new tactic.

On topic.
I see camping as sitting in a corner near a doorway and killing people when they run through, mostly with a shotgun.
If i am behind cover shooting you, thats not camping, thats me using cover effectively like a boss.

Or if i am guarding an objective and killing you, thats not camping, thats me defending the objective.

I don't think we will see much camping, with all the bases and towers and such, everyone will be defending the objective or using cover, so this game will have less camping i think than most other games.


I'm not against lean, definitely no prone, but lean has always been a tactic. You only call it camping when you get owned by it and don't know how to counter it, IE: grenades.

This is so true. Basically my post can be summed up by this.

[Poser]

Anyways....

I voted for lean. It was one of the things removed from the game that killed CoD for me. It seems small on paper but it was a major gameplay element.

[PlaceboCyanide]

Leaning is perhaps even more important for the attacker than it is for the defender. The lack of leaning will pretty much always give the advantage in the situation to the defender.

My personal vote was no to prone, yes to lean.

I don't mind prone in the usual shooters I play. In fact I sorta expect it in most games, but somehow I feel PS doesnt need it. Leaning I would like to have though. It's just stupid having to expose your whole body when carefully wanting to look around the corner.

This. It is hard to have an anti-camp stance and say no to lean.

[Bags]

I'm not against lean, definitely no prone, but lean has always been a tactic. You only call it camping when you get owned by it and don't know how to counter it, IE: grenades.

Grenade spam in PS1 wasn't enough, let's put a shit ton of mechanics that require them in PS2, this can't end badly. :D

[I SandRock]

Leaning is perhaps even more important for the attacker than it is for the defender. The lack of leaning will pretty much always give the advantage in the situation to the defender.

Huh? How do you work that out? We both played APB and I'd say leaning gives the advantage to the defender... the attacker has to expose themselves and move towards the area that is being defended. The defender can 'pop out' with lean when he wants to and 'pop back' when its needed. Choosing the moments of engagement and surprising the attacker. The attacker can lean from behind a corner to survey the area but he's going to have to move and attack at some point..and expose his entire body.

[Coreldan]

Huh? How do you work that out? We both played APB and I'd say leaning gives the advantage to the defender... the attacker has to expose themselves and move towards the area that is being defended. The defender can 'pop out' with lean when he wants to and 'pop back' when its needed. Choosing the moments of engagement and surprising the attacker. The attacker can lean from behind a corner to survey the area but he's going to have to move and attack at some point..

There's a major difference of the third person mechanics though which makes a direct comparison somewhat invalid. In APB you dont use leaning to see whats behind the corner.

Leaning is naturally also a big thing for the defender in any game, but when I think about wanting leaning implemented in PS2, I mainly want it as the attacker. I can camp the corner pretty much all the same and still have the advantage every time as a defender, leaning or not. As the attacker I'd like the option to expose less of myself.

Overall it's sorta incredible how modern games strip down features down the road :D Sure, some are better for gameplay design and all that but still. I'm used to leaning all the way from the first Rainbow 6, for me it's a baseline of any shooter game o.o

Both gain, but in relation I think the attacker gains more.

That said, I come from a shooter background with fairly realistic damage models.. I've never complained about camping, cos at least for me in the games it was in a way a major part of the game. You died into single shots to almost anywhere, so you had to be careful and expect the worst around every corner. Most of my shooter experience is in games like these, and I've never found a camping as a problem myself, and no, I wasnt the person doing it most of the time :D If I died going around the corner recklessly, I blamed myself, not the enemy.

[Bags]

Huh? How do you work that out? We both played APB and I'd say leaning gives the advantage to the defender... the attacker has to expose themselves and move towards the area that is being defended. The defender can 'pop out' with lean when he wants to and 'pop back' when its needed. Choosing the moments of engagement and surprising the attacker. The attacker can lean from behind a corner to survey the area but he's going to have to move and attack at some point..and expose his entire body.

This too.

[DreadPirate]

There's no such thing as camping in this game. Grenades, planes, jump jets, and sheer numbers negate any real damage a camper can do. This is a different type of game than the "other" fps games most are used to. So the normal fps faux pas don't apply.
Just my 2 cents.

[Bags]

There's no such thing as camping in this game. Grenades, planes, jump jets, and sheer numbers negate any real damage a camper can do. This is a different type of game than the "other" fps games most are used to. So the normal fps faux pas don't apply.
Just my 2 cents.

Other FPS games have grenades. Just saying.

[I SandRock]

There's a major difference of the third person mechanics though which makes a direct comparison somewhat invalid. In APB you dont use leaning to see whats behind the corner.

It makes little difference to the situation. The defender still has the entrenched position, you will not catch him out in the open, at most you will catch him popping in and out of lean. Or being statically in lean to cover the entrance. The defender can sit and wait for as long as he wants making use of cover while the attacker has to move in and attack at some point. Planetside 2 also has wide open spaces and large outside areas for attackers to traverse. We have seen little actual indoor corridors. Which means attackers will be caught out in the open more often while defenders use lean to make a small target of themselves..

[GreatMazinkaise]

Silly OP, T-A-C-T-I-C-A-L isn't how you spell "camping"...

[Coreldan]

It makes little difference to the situation. The defender still has the entrenched position, you will not catch him out in the open, at most you will catch him popping in and out of lean. Or being statically in lean to cover the entrance. The defender can sit and wait for as long as he wants making use of cover while the attacker has to move in and attack at some point. Planetside 2 also has wide open spaces and large outside areas for attackers to traverse. We have seen little actual indoor corridors. Which means attackers will be caught out in the open more often while defenders use lean to make a small target of themselves..

And I don't baseline disagree. In my head though, having the option to leave increases the attacking sides survivability more than it increases the defending side ability to camp and that is why I want it implemented/I'm not against it.

In fact, I believe Planetside is the only online shooter I've ever played more than 2 hours that didn't have the option to lean. :D EDIT: No wait, BF3.

[Landtank]

Grenade spam in PS1 wasn't enough, let's put a shit ton of mechanics that require them in PS2, this can't end badly. :D

Hah maybe, but since grenades cost money it wouldn't in theory be too bad. Its a good point though, definitely could be abused.

Besides grenades are just one example, you can wait for the enemy to pop out, it limits the amount of people allowed to clog up a hallway, makes snipers way more noticeable outdoors I feel, idk just throwin around ideas.

Leaning allows you to check your corners more effectively, and I think it allows for better firefights, but I could be wrong. Its all based on opinion, but I just don't like the idea of having to throw my whole body into the line of fire to take a shot, or to stay behind a MAX suit just to take some pot shots.

[QuantumMechanic]

I think PS2 definately should have some mechanics that facilitate "camping".

Firstly as has been mentioned the fights usually will have an attacker / defender situation where one team is defending some type of building or feature. Do you expect the defenders to run around willy-nilly in the open instead of taking advantage of base defense features?

Secondly killing campers gives infiltrators something fun to do.

[Poser]

There's no such thing as camping in this game. Grenades, planes, jump jets, and sheer numbers negate any real damage a camper can do. This is a different type of game than the "other" fps games most are used to. So the normal fps faux pas don't apply.
Just my 2 cents.

This. Plus you forgot that you can "spot" guys on the map too, for your team.

[Landtank]

Secondly killing campers gives infiltrators something fun to do.

Exactly my thinking too.

[Bags]

Hah maybe, but since grenades cost money it wouldn't in theory be too bad. Its a good point though, definitely could be abused.

Besides grenades are just one example, you can wait for the enemy to pop out, it limits the amount of people allowed to clog up a hallway, makes snipers way more noticeable outdoors I feel, idk just throwin around ideas.

Leaning allows you to check your corners more effectively, and I think it allows for better firefights, but I could be wrong. Its all based on opinion, but I just don't like the idea of having to throw my whole body into the line of fire to take a shot, or to stay behind a MAX suit just to take some pot shots.

What incentive do defenders have to pop out when they can lean and wait for you to come to them?

I think PS2 definately should have some mechanics that facilitate "camping".

Firstly as has been mentioned the fights usually will have an attacker / defender situation where one team is defending some type of building or feature. Do you expect the defenders to run around willy-nilly in the open instead of taking advantage of base defense features?

Secondly killing campers gives infiltrators something fun to do.

Defenders already have the advantage. :confused:

and all you need is one defender to have a DL scope or an infared scope and the cloaker is useless.

[Coreldan]

What incentive do defenders have to pop out when they can lean and wait for you to come to them?

Defenders already have the advantage. :confused:

They already have no incentive to pop out even without lean.

Like BF3. I miss the option to lean in it, but never as the defender, but the attacker. If I want to camp as the defender, they will lose regardless if I have lean or not. As the attacker it gives me a tad better chance to do something about it. Yes, defender still has the advantage, but I'm a bit less at a disadvantage.

Think it like...... If you have 2 apples and get 2 apples more, you get a 100% increase. If you have 100 apples and you get 2 apples more, it's a 2% increase :D Point being, it's a far bigger boost to the attacker than it is to the defender. Not at such percentages as in the examples, but still :D

Now I'm off to sleep though, so I won't be replying in the next 8 hours, but I guess there's nothing more for me to reply, I said my opinion already :D

[Toppopia]

Hah maybe, but since grenades cost money it wouldn't in theory be too bad. Its a good point though, definitely could be abused.

Besides grenades are just one example, you can wait for the enemy to pop out, it limits the amount of people allowed to clog up a hallway, makes snipers way more noticeable outdoors I feel, idk just throwin around ideas.

Leaning allows you to check your corners more effectively, and I think it allows for better firefights, but I could be wrong. Its all based on opinion, but I just don't like the idea of having to throw my whole body into the line of fire to take a shot, or to stay behind a MAX suit just to take some pot shots.

Its weird having to expose my whole body just to shoot, thats one reason i love games with cover mechanics, it allows me to effectively fight from cover, and i always ADS round corners to give me a nice controlled pace i can look round corners, and since grenades cost resouces and hopefully can't be resupplied by ammo boxes, then grenade spam won't be too bad,

[Immigrant]

But this game is about defending bases, so its not camping, its called defending a base/tower/whatever, kind of hate how most people say "You're sitting in one place killing me? You must be a camping noob."


Toppopia I wasn't talking about that... base defense is not "camping". Even camping is a legit tactics sometimes imo i.e. when ambushing...

However there will be those guys (snipers mostly) who will go to your bases/towers, hide between 2 rocks and shoot at soldiers spawning nearby like that one guy in E3 footage. they will have stealth cloaks already but there's no need to make them OP by allowing them to have even less visibility by going prone or leaning behind the rock.

[maradine]

lol didn't come up. I looked everything was from 2011. My bad I guess... :eek:

Don't worry about it. I think all the principal constituents on both sides are argued the hell out anyway. :)

edit: oh christ, apparently not.

[Landtank]

They already have no incentive to pop out even without lean.

Like BF3. I miss the option to lean in it, but never as the defender, but the attacker. If I want to camp as the defender, they will lose regardless if I have lean or not. As the attacker it gives me a tad better chance to do something about it. Yes, defender still has the advantage, but I'm a bit less at a disadvantage.

Yeah the way I see it, the defender should almost always have the advantage over the attacker in a 1v1, that's the nature of the game, but leaning cuts down that advantage just enough that you have actually stand a good chance if you can get to cover.

[captainkapautz]

Gotta love people going all "DONT ADD THAT, IT HELPS CAMPERS!" when at the same time people want strategy and tactics.

Last time I checked there were more strategies and tactics than going "HARPDARP IMA RUSH IN THER".

Defenders SHOULD have the advantage, equal numbers on both the defending and attacking sides should atleast be stalemates or favor defenders, unless one side uses superior tactics.

This whole train of thought that prone would encourage camping has no basis whatsoever, when camping is a valid tactic in this kind of game.

[Toppopia]

Toppopia I wasn't talking about that... base defense is not "camping". Even camping is legit a legit tactics imo when i.e. when ambushing...

However there will be those guys (snipers mostly) who will go to your bases/towers, hide between 2 rocks and shoot at soldiers spawning nearby like that one guy in E3 footage. they will have stealth cloaks already but there's no need to make them OP by allowing them to have even less visibility by going prone or leaning behind the rock.

My apologies, normally when people talk about camping they talk about corner camping and such, but with the numbers of people spawning, then hopefully the case you said wouldn't be too bad, thats where someone spawns a aircraft or get people to lay down suppressing fire while someone flanks him. But snipers cloaks don't last forever and i presume they have a recharge time so that hopefully stops any of that being too powerful. And some people might argue that that is a valid tactic of slowing down an enemy advance, like in BF3 operation metro, me and my friends were defending and got pushed back, but we stayed outside and killed everyone that tried to run down the tunnel, ahh, good times, and only 1 person would ever try and kill me, which was a bad move on their part.

[Rumblepit]

prone would be nice, but it dosnt work for all games. lean i am all for it. adds so much more dimension to the combat.

[Canaris]

I do like lean in my FPS's ever since F.E.A.R. but for a mmofps like PS2 is it needs... meh I don't think so though I wouldn't be worried over it showing up unlike the other choice

as for prone never add to PS2 you hear me NEVER!!!!

[Gonefshn]

No prone. Just no.

But lean is always cool, not totally necessary but it's cool.

It gives you the ability to use cover the same way on the sides of objects as you can the top. Really adds a cool immersive feeling to games and it's not like you can't shoot someone when they lean out. Who cares if it "helps campers" ?? You can do the same thing. Throw a grenade his way, flank, wait for him to pop his head out. Seriously.

In a game where shooting is the primary mechanic cover should be a HUGE part of gameplay.

[erunion]

The prone hate is interesting.

Its probably not needed, considering how PS1 worked without.

But the idea that prone is facilitates "campers" is just silly. If anything has recently abused the idea of prone its MW where you can instantly prone during a fight, shooting all the while. But that has nothing to do with camping and everything to do with running and gunning.

Edit:The anti-prone arguments are so lame its making me want to see how prone would play out in PS2 beta.

[Sifer2]

Both of those mechanics are not necessarily camping mechanics. Both can be used to aid you in attacking. Since Prone generally means you can crawl. And crawling behind low cover is a good way to advance on a position. Leaning around a corner for a quick peek can also be a safer way of advancing. If you have ever played a real tactical shooter like Americas Army, Red Orchestra, Arma, and so forth you know this.

Anyway we discussed it for well over a year. I was always more of a wait an see type of view point. To me whether it should be in was mostly based on how accurate guns were this time around. And honestly the guns look really accurate an the health bars really low as of the E3 footage. So I am now of the opinion these features actually fit the game design. Since lets face it so much of this game is a rip off of Battlefield right now.

[Vancha]

My experience of lean is primarily from SoF2. Short of getting stuck moving from cover to cover, fights were mainly two people leaning out from opposite ends of a hallway. It's not campier, it's just different. It's a similar dynamic to crouch actually, in that you can enter and leave leaning/crouching instantly.

Prone on the other hand, is a commitment to being less mobile. As with the other thread, we have no way of knowing whether prone would be beneficial to Planetside's gameplay until we play it.

Edit:
Yes to Prone - 29.23%
No to Prone - 70.76%

Yes to Lean - 43.07%
No to Lean - 56.92%

[Crator]

These subjects already have topics, search them. Easy answer.

Not so easy when they close Poll threads. Newcomers cannot contribute to the poll/discussion when that happens. Side-effect: New Polls/Threads will emerge so those who didn't get to participate before can.... Simple fix, don't close hot topic threads.

Crap, I wanna re-vote, I clicked Lean Only but I wouldn't mind having Lean and Prone...

[Dairian]

Fail Pole. They both do not need to implemented into PS2.

[maradine]

Fail Pole. They both do not need to implemented into PS2.

Wouldn't that be the "No, tactical mechanics will slow down the game" option?

[Toppopia]

Fail Pole. They both do not need to implemented into PS2.

And could you explain why they shouldn't be added so we can read your comment and see if it is valid. Thank you.

[Otleaz]

I had a good laugh at all of the people chastising camping.

Lets remove Engineer turrets, base turrets, and the entirety of base defense while we are at it. They all encourage camping and slow gameplay, booo!

Who cares if gameplay slows down? You spend 5 minutes getting to a base, you should be able to utilize some mechanics to stay alive instead of running around like the headless chickens in MW and BF3.

[basti]

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=41865

This is the thread you are looking for. And it went downhill from page 1 onwards.

We are not having that again already. Sorry that you couldnt contribute to the old Discussion, but first you should read those 66 pages and then figure out if you can actually say something nobody else said already. Trust me, you wont find any point for or against prone or lean thats new.

Once your actually ready for a thread, feel free to open a new one. But make sure you get the poll correct, because right now "No, to Prone" and "Yes, to Lean" is exactly the same.