Zerging= Feeding= "Aggressive Play"

[fishirboy]

As I do my daily route of looking at comments I see many people saying that "death is a punishment in its self". They go on to say that the respawn is not that impotent and that shorter the respawn for much stuff the better. Now not all people say that but some do, also don't give me the "Wait until beta" crap :lol: I want to know what you guys think about having people just respawn repeatedly, I for one think that it's annoying, untatical, just feeds the guy xp and also it should not be a choice you want to choose, if i am trying to get into a bace and the respawn timer for defenders are 10 seconds it will be a pain to try and destroy the respawn generators and finally get to the capture room. Do you guys think that "aggressive play should be allowed? Why or why not? :huh: (no poll because just saying yes or no does not do justice.)

[OutlawDr]

"aggressive play should be allowed?

You mean.. should the respawn timer be 10 seconds.

You really could have just posted that here http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=43526

Anyway, hard to say. I think we need to wait until beta to really say for sure. But my gut tells me that there should slower respawns at bases that are being contested, in order to promote medic revives, squad spawns and galaxies.

[thegreekboy]

A short respawn timer is a good mechanism but yes, dying in the battle and needing to transport yourself all the way back is a punishment in and of itself. No punishments should be added further.

[Stardouser]

People want to force aggressive play with things like no prone, and resistance to everything else that "slows the game down". Yet you want to slow the game down with punishing respawn timers?

Also, you seem to be upset that defenders can respawn in 10 seconds, but most of the other people who want respawn timers to be longer seem to want the attackers to be the ones affected by longer respawn timers. You guys wanting longer respawn timers don't even have the same goals.

[Seagoon]

Feeding does not exist in PS1 or PS2, this is not LoL.

Faster respawns means that the advantage of fighting close to your spawn area is increased, this means the defenders get a big advantage. It also means that coordinated play is less effective when attacking specific objectives such as towers since the faster respawns means that each small victory over the defenders means less.

Faster respawns does however mean that there is less 'down time' for players which is a good thing.

As for spawning and just running out to be killed over and over... Well if thats how they want to play thats how they want to play, longer respawns wont stop that and no game mechanic is going to make these people suddenly realise how to play the game better, if they dont want to learn from their mistakes then there is nothing you can do.

[lolroflroflcake]

You stand to gain nothing by being unaggressive, you just give the enemy room to breath and fix up any holes in the defenses.

By being aggressive you are not only keeping the defenders constantly occupied but you are making it too dangerous to attempt re-fortify in addition to killing them as well.

[Eyeklops]

There has been nothing stated that a spawn timer penalty cannot, or will not, be instituted during beta for "feeding the meatgrinder." It was a PS1 mechanic, and I am sure the devs have looked over this situation and will use beta to determine if PS2 has a need for it as well.

Although I agree with some of the newer mechanics to increase the pace of the game, I personally would like to see a similar "multiple deaths in too short of a time" penalty in PS2. However, I don't think it should ever be as long as the 30 second timer in PS1.

[Sabot]

No longer than 10-15 seconds is needed as a fixed respawn timer. Any more and it'd hurt the pace of the game, and any less it'd be just that... a meatgrinder.

Buuuuut..
.
BETA!

[MCYRook]

Well.

This is actually a pretty important point that impacts the flow of battle in a very general way.

PS 1 imposed quite significant downtimes on a player that got himself killed, not just because of the respawn time (which would usually range between about 2-30 seconds, depending on where you spawned), but also because getting back to battle from your spawn point could take a long time.

This was especially the case if you had, say, been driving a tank, and wanted to get back to battle in a tank rather than footzerging. So you'd spawn at the base (rather than at the frontline AMS). Then get out the spawnroom, up the stairs, outside, across the courtyard to the vehicle pad. Maybe you'd have to wait in line for like a minute because so many other people were also spawning their vehicles there. And then get your new tank, and drive it back to the front. All that time, you were out of the battle.

It could very short as well, tho. Spawning at an AMS, for instance, usually took 15 seconds. And sometimes, that AMS could be almost right where the battle was. That's the main reason every big assault that started with lots of vehicles and aircraft eventually mutated into a footzerg attack, as people just didn't bring new vehicles when the first ones got destroyed - not because they couldn't, but because it took them too long. Lazyness and instant "back in battle" wins.

The same was true when fighting inside a base, as the enemy pushed ever closer towards the spawn room - downtime getting to the fight was minimal, and spawn timer could be as low as < 5 seconds (although usually was more like 10-25). That meant that a small, much better force could not bruteforce their way in against a much larger force, because the defenders would just "outspawn" them and they couldn't kill them fast enough.

One thing PS 1 did to alleviate this was a spawn timer penalty - if you died in rapid succession, your respawn timer would increase. That's a pretty harsh mechanic tho which I don't expect to see in PS 2.

As for the other stuff, it really is too hard to tell. PS 2 will strive to decrease downtime, which in and of itself is a good thing. So I do expect shortish spawn timers as well as more spawn points to shorten travel distance. That will impact the flow of battle, possibly in a bad way. But it's too early to tell before beta IMO.

[fishirboy]

People want to force aggressive play with things like no prone, and resistance to everything else that "slows the game down". Yet you want to slow the game down with punishing respawn timers?

Also, you seem to be upset that defenders can respawn in 10 seconds, but most of the other people who want respawn timers to be longer seem to want the attackers to be the ones affected by longer respawn timers. You guys wanting longer respawn timers don't even have the same goals.

Yes I want something more then another cod game were you just go guns a blazing and try and win. I want tactical gaming instead of all the games that have so fast pace it's not possible to cooperate, BF3 is the closest i can get to that, but this will be much bigger in scale.

[Stardouser]

Yes I want something more then another cod game were you just go guns a blazing and try and win. I want tactical gaming instead of all the games that have so fast pace it's not possible to cooperate, BF3 is the closest i can get to that, but this will be much bigger in scale.

There is no relationship between tactical play and the spawn timer. The tactics required are simply different.

In fact, if you need the enemy to respawn longer than 15 seconds, it's because YOU aren't playing aggressively. Kill the enemy, bust through their lines, and go to the capture point room. Use Galaxy drops to land right next to the capture point room. Don't ask for increased spawn timers just so you can be leisurely about it.

While you almost have a point, Planetside is a lot bigger than Battlefield. Battlefield has 2 tanks, 2-3 aircraft per side and when they die you wait on respawn. Not so in Planetside, you can pull 20 Galaxies for a galaxy drop. Planetside gives you the tactical freedom to do what you need to do to bust through and accomplish the objective without the need for crippling spawn timers.

[DreadPirate]

There is no relationship between tactical play and the spawn timer. The tactics required are simply different.

In fact, if you need the enemy to respawn longer than 15 seconds, it's because YOU aren't playing aggressively. Kill the enemy, bust through their lines, and go to the capture point room. Use Galaxy drops to land right next to the capture point room. Don't ask for increased spawn timers just so you can be leisurely about it.

While you almost have a point, Planetside is a lot bigger than Battlefield. Battlefield has 2 tanks, 2-3 aircraft per side and when they die you wait on respawn. Not so in Planetside, you can pull 20 Galaxies for a galaxy drop. Planetside gives you the tactical freedom to do what you need to do to bust through and accomplish the objective without the need for crippling spawn timers.

I'll have to respectfully disagree. I understand where you're coming from, but I think the idea is to add more of a penalty to death so that people play more tactically and with more teamwork involved. We want people to think, plan, and coordinate that breakthrough in the enemy lines instead of rambosuicidekamikazee because they'll just instantly respawn.
This is just my opinion, and in any case, the beta will ultimately give us the info we need to provide proper feedback on this issue.

[Graywolves]

I'm for having longer respawns due to frequency of deaths but at the same time I understand where they are going with shorter respawns.

To build on with that I also feel that the travel distance (although shorter than before) should be something to put in to account. Even if spawning was completely instantaneous at all times you're not going to be able to insta-spawn and run at someone and die repeatedly within a couple seconds.

[super pretendo]

There is no relationship between tactical play and the spawn timer. The tactics required are simply different.
Sorry, you're just wrong. A low respawn timer will limit the amount of viable tactics. A higher respawn timer will not. Aggressive play will ALWAYS be viable in a certain time and place with high respawn timers, because it focuses on overwhelming and quickly killing enemies. THIS ENABLES THIS PLAYSTYLE BY MAKING IT SO THE ENEMIES THAT YOU MADE DEAD STAY DEAD LONGER.

If you guys wan't a CoD respawn fest, this isn't the game for you. It's that simple.

[Stardouser]

Sorry, you're just wrong. A low respawn timer will limit the amount of viable tactics. A higher respawn timer will not. Aggressive play will ALWAYS be viable in a certain time and place with high respawn timers, because it focuses on overwhelming and quickly killing enemies. THIS ENABLES THIS PLAYSTYLE BY MAKING IT SO THE ENEMIES THAT YOU MADE DEAD STAY DEAD LONGER.

If you guys wan't a CoD respawn fest, this isn't the game for you. It's that simple.

You want to be able to play slower by having the enemy respawn slower. And if that's what you want, then all of the opposition to prone or any other thing that people claim will slow the game down, goes out the window.

And Clegg already said(unless he Clegged it up by saying something wrong or unauthorized) at E3 that they would NOT be punishing respawn timers.

EDIT: Here is the source from E3:
http://www.twitch.tv/totalbiscuit/b/320593185

What I have transcribed starts somewhere after the 1 hour 7 minute mark.

Transcript:

TB: Switching through views as our players are killed off, something you really need to learn about this game, is, you’re gonna die, and you’re gonna have to accept that. It will happen, it’s not a shameful thing, get back in the fight, get yourself a new vehicle, spawn on your squad, get right back into it.

Clegg: Luckily we don’t uh, we don’t really uh, I would say like handicap you for dying a lot. If you die a lot we’ll let you get back into the game really fast, we’re not trying to force you to stay on a death screen just because you died a bunch, the way we did our spawn mechanics we really made it so people can get back into the game really fast even if they just died.

[Sgt Shultz]

Yes I want something more then another cod game were you just go guns a blazing and try and win. I want tactical gaming instead of all the games that have so fast pace it's not possible to cooperate, BF3 is the closest i can get to that, but this will be much bigger in scale.

It already is a very tactical (and strategic) game. Start thinking in terms of resource control instead of attrition based play, and this will be readily appartant to you.

[super pretendo]

And Clegg already said(unless he Clegged it up by saying something wrong or unauthorized) at E3 that they would NOT be punishing respawn timers.



Looks like they are on the wrong path then, and it's up to the playerbase to correct them. I will wait until beta to see of course, but if anything is suboptimal I will let them know.

[Senyu]

I don't mind if someone wants to run into a spary of bullets every.dam.time they respawn. Hopefully when they get tired of that and see these awesome sqauds/outfits rolling with style and tactics they will want to join.

[Xyntech]

Looks like they are on the wrong path then, and it's up to the playerbase to correct them. I will wait until beta to see of course, but if anything is suboptimal I will let them know.

Having respawn timers get longer the more often you die in a span of time only starts heavily kicking in after you've died a ton of times in a row. If both sides are dying a lot then it's a moot point. If one side is dying a lot and the other side is not, then there is no reason to punish the dying side further, because they are already going to lose.

Having instant respawning or 5 second respawns is going too far and will result in a meat grinder, but having a well balanced fixed spawn time will work fine. The only tactics it will negate will be the ability to lay siege to an entrenched enemy as effectively, but considering how open the PS2 bases and towers are I don't think that siege warfare will be required to bring an end to a fight.

We'll all test it in beta and if it's seriously fucked up, I'm sure you'll get a lot of support, but if it ends up fine and the battles flow smoothly, I don't think it's going to get changed just because it negates a few tactical options.

[Toppopia]

You could make it so the further away from a battle you choose to spawn, the faster you respawn. So if i choose to spawn on a galaxy, it might take 20 seconds, if i choose to spawn at a tower that is 3km away, it will only be 5 seconds or something.

[Dougnifico]

You're still looking at 45 seconds vs 3 min. 10 seconds flat is fine. Only squad spawn puts you right back into battle and that has a cooldown.

[Russ]

You could make it so the further away from a battle you choose to spawn, the faster you respawn. So if i choose to spawn on a galaxy, it might take 20 seconds, if i choose to spawn at a tower that is 3km away, it will only be 5 seconds or something.

Incentive to fall back and regroup with that? Even if accidental i get a vibe from that, so i like it.

[Sifer2]

Well the good thing is once we are in Beta problems like the one you mentioned of it being almost impossible to make a proper assault when defenders are respawning too fast will be obvious. Even for the noobs demanding fast respawns. They wont want it anymore when they can never capture anything. Especially if taking over stuff earns you the most XP which it had damn well better.

[Symmenix]

You could make it so the further away from a battle you choose to spawn, the faster you respawn. So if i choose to spawn on a galaxy, it might take 20 seconds, if i choose to spawn at a tower that is 3km away, it will only be 5 seconds or something.

This needs to happen. +1 !

[Toppopia]

The numbers would defiantly have to be changed, but i think we can find a good balance between choosing close respawns and far away, because choosing far away allows you to grab vehicles. Regroup, plan a better assault, or just go somewhere else.

[Synapse]

Ugh, merge this with the respawn timer thread please. There is no reason to have 2 threads on the exact same topic other than this OP who can't even spell "base" wanting his 10 minutes of fame.

[Gonefshn]

I've said this in another thread of the countless about this topic. I don't think respawn time needs to be long if your taking the location of the spawn into account. Squad spawn, galaxy spawn, put some time on those but if people choose to spawn in the bowels of a base or at a tower further away why limit them with a long respawn when they are not going to be appearing on the front line anyway?

People should always have a fast spawn option available if they want to spawn out of the action and regroup why penalize them?

[Stardouser]

I've said this in another thread of the countless about this topic. I don't think respawn time needs to be long if your taking the location of the spawn into account. Squad spawn, galaxy spawn, put some time on those but if people choose to spawn in the bowels of a base or at a tower further away why limit them with a long respawn when they are not going to be appearing on the front line anyway?

People should always have a fast spawn option available if they want to spawn out of the action and regroup why penalize them?
It's not just about spawning out of the action. You need to be able to spawn near the action as well. Galaxy spawns should be nearly unpenalized, and squad spawn needs to be as fast as it possibly can be. A 30 second squad spawn timer is more than enough to give the other team a proper chance to wipe the squad out.

Also: bowels of a base is an advantage to defenders, since that will be nearby, attackers respawning at a base means far away.

[Crator]

You could make it so the further away from a battle you choose to spawn, the faster you respawn. So if i choose to spawn on a galaxy, it might take 20 seconds, if i choose to spawn at a tower that is 3km away, it will only be 5 seconds or something.

I was thinking same thing as I was going through page 1 of this thread. I was thinking more along the lines of spawn types rather then distance though. They could even let Galaxy drivers get certs to allow faster spawns but still not as fast as spawning at an owned base.

[Kevin D Lee]

Personally I feel the timer should START at 30 seconds and go UP from there if you die within a certain time. The timer should always be dynamic in regards to what has happened.

Commit suicide? 2 minutes

Base under control? 30 seconds

Base contested? 60 seconds

There are so many factors to consider that we really do need to wait for Beta to see how they are handling the spawn timers.

Keeping them longer will promote better teamwork and less "Rambo" types.

[Synapse]

Personally I feel the timer should START at 30 seconds and go UP from there if you die within a certain time. The timer should always be dynamic in regards to what has happened.

Commit suicide? 2 minutes

Base under control? 30 seconds

Base contested? 60 seconds

There are so many factors to consider that we really do need to wait for Beta to see how they are handling the spawn timers.

Keeping them longer will promote better teamwork and less "Rambo" types.

Right, because sitting there staring at a respawn screen for the next minute is "fun."

Its poor game design. Better to force someone to spawn farther away and spend a minute running than a minute literally doing nothing.

Better still to let people join combat right away and make their shield take a minute to recharge.


...and even better to just have a DIFFERENT DEATH PENALTY.

Seriously having waiting as your death penalty is shortsighted and poor game design imo.

If you want people to die less, give them a benefit for staying alive, not a punishment for dying. You'll get the same result only your players will be happier and stay to play your game instead of leaving for one where they can have fun instead of waiting.

[Shade Millith]

Anyway, hard to say. I think we need to wait until beta to really say for sure. But my gut tells me that there should slower respawns at bases that are being contested, in order to promote medic revives, squad spawns and galaxies.

Squad spawns should NEVER be a persons first choice. Or second or third. They need to be very heavily restricted, either by resource cost (1k resource sounds good), or by timer (5-10 minutes).

We don't want this game to turn into a BF3 'Hunt the guy that's hiding somewhere respawning everyone that you just killed every 10 seconds.'

[StumpyTheOzzie]

A short respawn timer is a good mechanism but yes, dying in the battle and needing to transport yourself all the way back is a punishment in and of itself. No punishments should be added further.

But if there's 600 people spawning in the spawn tubes - with a short timer - that's going to be a huge farmfest. It's bad enough with a 30 second timer. You're trying to shoot the tubes to break them but all this meat keeps getting in the way. Multiply that by like 30 times. (1/3 the spawn time, 10x the population)

short spawn timers favour defence. Defence shouldn't need MORE benefits.

[Brusi]

spawn tube overheat function.

[Stardouser]

But if there's 600 people spawning in the spawn tubes - with a short timer - that's going to be a huge farmfest. It's bad enough with a 30 second timer. You're trying to shoot the tubes to break them but all this meat keeps getting in the way. Multiply that by like 30 times. (1/3 the spawn time, 10x the population)

short spawn timers favour defence. Defence shouldn't need MORE benefits.

If there's 600 people on one side all spawning at the same base, then perhaps the game needs per base maximum spawn limits.

Squad spawns should NEVER be a persons first choice. Or second or third. They need to be very heavily restricted, either by resource cost (1k resource sounds good), or by timer (5-10 minutes).

We don't want this game to turn into a BF3 'Hunt the guy that's hiding somewhere respawning everyone that you just killed every 10 seconds.'

Have you played the PS2 beta and tested squad spawn as the primary respawn method? Normally I wouldn't mention Beta, but unlike TTK, squad spawn is something that simply hasn't existed in Planetside before and simply cannot be counted out without testing.

Everyone talks about speeding up the pace of the combat yet demonizes the one thing that could allow for properly tempered pace. It needs beta tested at varying levels, all there is to it.

[theBreadSultan]

I don't really get why people are associating long spawn times with not fun gameplay.

counter strike (peace be upon it) had the longest respawn time in any game - 4 minutes if you died fast enough and the last player was a camper.

No one can say that the action in Counter Strike was not fast paced.
Or that the game was not fun.

Part of the fun in it was knowing that when you killed someone you left them twiddling their thumbs. It makes for a satisfying kill.

I've seen from the footage that each spawn point seems to have it's own countdown clock.

This makes the most sense to me.
So you get killed -
Instant (or 10 sec = same) re spawn available in base.
But once you have used that re spawn point, you cannot use it for another 5 minutes.
so the more you die, the further out you start.

Planetside2 is supposed to be about tactics, but instant or near instant respawns negate that completely.

If you have ever played the likes of Unreal tournament or Quake you'll know that be it deathmatch, team deathmatch or CTF - your still gonna be running around like a mentalist killing everything you can - while occasionally screaming
"THIS IS MY HOUSE" at your monitor.

Not that this is not fun, just it's not tactical.

tldr; the longer the respawn, the greater the incentive to not die, the more meaning given to each kill, the greater the reward for teamwork and tactics. and visa versa

[xnorb]

Guys, you're pushing it way too far ...
If you're really standing up for thing like minutes long respawn times, then
you can tell SoE right away to stop development.

Punishment for dying / Incentive for not dying ...
Heck, that's something you can't really control.
This world isn't full of awesome high skilled players - many simply suck.
What you're asking for is to exclude every one of them, which then would
lead to the game dying as a F2P model needs a shitload of players.

Special sidenote on Squad Spawn:
What makes BF3 so fast-paced is not the squad spawning but the small
maps (clustered flags, nearly all maps flat as a pancake) and low TTK.
Sure, BF3 only got squads of 4, which makes it less of an issue.


Offer enough routes / objectives to go for so the population spreads out
a lot and keeps the battles in smaller scales and you will get a slower pace
if TTK doesn't get lower than BC2's TTK (without magnum ammo that is).


@Aggressive play:
Sure, BF gameplay might be different, but in BF it was all about how aggressive
you are. There were enough guys trying to defend their "tactical" gameplay
(=camping and rather getting overrun by enemies than taking objectives)
but always the team won that focused on objectives.

Not talking about zerging - as this isn't able in BF - but that isn't needed.
Go for objectives and don't camp like Susy Coward in bushes and on hills.
That's what i entitle aggressive.

[theBreadSultan]

Guys, you're pushing it way too far ...
If you're really standing up for thing like minutes long respawn times, then
you can tell SoE right away to stop development.



I don't think anyone is really saying the default spawn time should be 1 minute.

Just at 10 seconds / instant, consider the following.

I am defending a CP (control point)
I spawn very close to the CP, the enemy spawns further away.
A viable defence against even a better tactical team would be a suicide attack.

Example. They have 3 tanks. ok so with 30 seconds of dead time. + 30 seconds of action time. so 1 minute flat.
I can take out all 3 tanks simply by jet packing or running straight at them, planting C4 and detonating it.
and because i re spawn near instantly, This becomes a viable tactic.

or perhaps the enemy are in the base.
If it takes the enemy 1 minute to respawn and get back to the CP I can suicide kill 5/6 of them. on my own. before even 1 of them manages to get back into the fight.

Personally i think a 30 second respawn time is a good medium, with 5 minute countdown timers on each spawn point.

[xnorb]

Spawn in "base" should be near instant IMO.

If it takes me - let's say - 3 minutes to get to the battle, it makes no sense
keeping an artificial timer on that.

I'd rather prefer a spawn-queue for certain areas rather than a timer.
Let's say per hexagon it allows 20 players of each fraction. If there are
already 20 of your fraction, you can't spawn there, but you can of course
spawn somewhere else and go/drive/fly there.

Of course numbers would need tuning (just like for a timer) but i somehow
don't like watching at timers ... you know, spawning doesn't need to mean
that i'm right in the battle again - simply let us spawn somewhere away so
we don't turn the battle into a big meatgrind, but we don't have to stare
at a spawn screen for ages. (and 30 seconds do feel like ages when you
know that the objective is about to be taken ...)

[Cuross]

Hokay! So I didn't read through all the pages, but here's my opinions.

Firstly! On the topic of the original question at hand "Should aggressive play be allowed". See, what I don't understand is, what do you define as aggressive play? To me, aggressive play is the foundation of what PS2 is. You spawn, you have an objective, you do whatever you can to get that objective. Whether you respawn fifty times or you charge in and kill fifteen people and capture it on your first go doesn't matter. Whether you do it by yourself or if you collect your squad and clear waypoints on the way to the objective doesn't matter. The objective is capture the objective.

Secondly! On the topic of the respawn timers, is five seconds too long? Ten seconds? Fifteen? Are those too short? I don't even understand the original query regarding the whole "feeding" thing, because we already know there's going to be a respawn timer, but it's going to be just short enough to keep us interested and quickly getting back to the game, but just long enough that the fight could have noticeably shifted gears and tactics. And there is a tactical significance to throwing yourself into the grinder, it may not feel very team based, but every time you rush them you are playing their attrition. They shoot a few rounds, take a few hits, maybe die, but in the end you are still reducing the defenders overall effectiveness if even momentarily.

Just because "feeding" and "aggressive play" might not fit what you or many people might think is a tactically viable option, there are reasons for bucking up and blitzing again and again. What are you really trying to ask, fishirboy? Are you questioning the tactical significance of zerging, asking about respawn timers, or just saying you don't like fast respawns?

[lawnmower]

People want to force aggressive play with things like no prone, and resistance to everything else that "slows the game down". Yet you want to slow the game down with punishing respawn timers?

yep. or maybe they dont want them in because theyre trash mechanics and they like longer respawn timers


You want to be able to play slower by having the enemy respawn slower. And if that's what you want, then all of the opposition to prone or any other thing that people claim will slow the game down, goes out the window.

god

[lawnmower]

Right, because sitting there staring at a respawn screen for the next minute is "fun."

Its poor game design. Better to force someone to spawn farther away and spend a minute running than a minute literally doing nothing.

because pressing w for a minute is "fun". based on my experience with other games travel times, a big majority of the travel times has been basically braindead, close to a funfactor of doing nothing for me.
how is it poor gamedesign? for me having nonexistant spawning times makes reviving way less common than it optimally should be. that design seems poor to me

Squad spawns should NEVER be a persons first choice. Or second or third. They need to be very heavily restricted, either by resource cost (1k resource sounds good)
100 flash or 7 mbt sounds good?


No one can say that the action in Counter Strike was not fast paced.
Or that the game was not fun.
huh

If you have ever played the likes of Unreal tournament or Quake you'll know that be it deathmatch, team deathmatch or CTF - your still gonna be running around like a mentalist killing everything you can

thats not true

[Stardouser]

yep. or maybe they dont want them in because theyre trash mechanics and they like longer respawn timers



god

Speak for yourself. Trash mechanics is a subjective opinion and it only counts if the majority of people feel that way. Show us your unbiased poll of all the communities PS2 will draw players from, confirming that the majority of players think the same way you do?

[GreatMazinkaise]

Speak for yourself. Trash mechanics is a subjective opinion and it only counts if the majority of people feel that way. Show us your unbiased poll of all the communities PS2 will draw players from, confirming that the majority of players think the same way you do?

Having a majority doesn't make something right, incidentally. It just means that a majority thinks that something is right.

Which doesn't make him right either, but that's beside the point.