Should being revived count as a death?

[Eyeklops]

In Planetside 1, if you died, a death registered on the K/D counter even if you were revived. Some other shooters do not count it as a death if you are revived. What do you think? Should being revived count as a death?

I am not talking about removing anything from the killers stats or points, just the player who was killed.

[Exmortius]

i'd have to vote yes. a perk to having friends playing medics :) they should count revives for medics as well just like k/d. advanced medics were amazing back in ps1 days.

[xnorb]

One of the very few things i liked in BF3.

Having a rambo medic reviving you 10 times in a row in front of enemies ... grrrrrrr.

But in BF3 it doesn't matter.
a) The team regains the lost ticket
b) If i don't feel like i don't have to accept the revive

It's sort of a bonus for sticking around with your squad mates.


In the end - it doesn't matter.
I would remove KDR tracking completely anyways.

[Goku]

I always wished during the merit kill streaks you could be revived to avoid having to redo. If you are revived you it shouldn't count as one imo.

[GuyFawkes]

Very odd question

Maybe they should have a revive /death counter? as medic , you revive someone , if they die again, you get a negative ratio. Would this stop you reviving people you know would only die and give you a bad rep as a medic?

See how it works both ways ?

[Razicator]

Yes. The only time it makes sense to not count as a death would be in a ticket-based system like Battlefield's conquest mode. Otherwise hell, you'll get people who refuse to revive themselves to preserve their K/D ratio and wait for a medic for a long time, taking up server space.

[MacXXcaM]

Well technically, aren't we just unconscious or heavily wounded as long as we don't respawn? So if a medic "revives" me I wasn't really dead before.

People should be rewarded for holding out and waiting for a medic.

[zomg]

Yeah I think it's a good idea. I don't think anything bad ever came from BF3 not counting it as a death if you were revived for example.

[GuyFawkes]

Well technically, aren't we just unconscious or heavily wounded as long as we don't respawn? So if a medic "revives" me I wasn't really dead before.

People should be rewarded for holding out and waiting for a medic.

Give the medic xp for reviving you , give some xp back to you for waiting or some resource reducing bonus ,yes.

But penalising the guy that stopped you in your tracks and inhibited your team enough to make you stop what you were doing and have to revive you ? no

[ringring]

The death should be counted as a death because it is a death.

[Luieburger]

I say no death count until you re-spawn, but have a revive counter too so that people can see how many times you've been revived and do the math if they want to calculate the full number of deaths.

[Cuross]

I feel that it is a death before and after you are revived. You were brought down fair and square (even though it may not feel like it :P). Just because you were given a second chance at this particular respawn doesn't mean that you should have that statistic removed. Sure it feels horrible when you find out that you played a 16/39 k/d during this session because you were revived a bunch of times, but the fact is that you were killed (brought down to 0% HP) and the statistic should remain.

My personal opinion.

[Anderz]

No! Making it count as a death will give casual players -- i.e. COD/BF3 players who care about their KDR -- even less of an incentive to work as a team. However, making revives NOT count as a death will encourage them to stick closer to medics and their squad, as it will less likely damage their precious KDR if they go down. By showing these players the statistical benefits of playing as a team, they'll feel less inclined to go lone wolf.

In Bad Company 2, revives counted as a death and squad play was hampered as a result. Far fewer revives, and sometimes, you actually got abused by players for reviving them because it not only counted as a death, but put them back in the line of fire -- a situation they consider to be worse than respawning back at base.

I don't want to see teamwork similarly punished in PS2. So in short, DO NOT make revives count as deaths.

[Brusi]

I chose no, but i'm kinda thinking that it should still count as a death stat-wise if you ae not squadded with any medics...

either way, you get your gear back and save rsources. Anything that promotes squad coherency and discourages people respamming themselves at the enemy, rather than using teamwork.

[kaffis]

Hmm. That depends. What are we counting deaths for?

If we're talking about "should revives count against you when it comes to frequent deaths increasing your respawn timer?" I'd say no, only respawns should count against that metric. Should reviving me negate the enemy who killed me's kill? No, the guy who killed me should still be awarded a kill. Should reviving me leave the death in my K/D ratio? I don't give a shit about KDR. And so on.

[Canaris]

if you get to 0hp your dead regardless of being medically revived later, it also should count as a death in the K/D system

[Absentis]

No! Making it count as a death will give casual players -- i.e. COD/BF3 players who care about their KDR -- even less of an incentive to work as a team. However, making revives NOT count as a death will encourage them to stick closer to medics and their squad, as it will less likely damage their precious KDR if they go down. By showing these players the statistical benefits of playing as a team, they'll feel less inclined to go lone wolf.

I completely agree with this. Casual players, in the sense mentioned above, care more about statistics than they do about having fun with the game from what I've noticed. This is a deeper problem of gaming in general in an attempt to show who's the 'best,' but that's a topic for a different thread. Because casual players care about their statistics, the game kind of has to be forgiving in that aspect to prevent the loss of playerbase so we're not just running around on half-full continents.

[Masterr]

yes it should count. your heart stopped working. you officially died on the battlefield. its not fair to the player that shot holes into you either.

[Eyeklops]

its not fair to the player that shot holes into you either.

Please elaborate. How is it not fair to the killer?

[Absentis]

Please elaborate. How is it not fair to the killer?

I think he is thinking the killer gets the kill taken away. If that was how it worked, it wouldn't be fair, but since it gives the kill and just takes away the death from the revived player, it is fair.

[Mongo]

Yeah you shouldnt let it effect your KD ratio, if your getting revived your in a teamplay environment, which means you will be willing to follow orders because you know if you get splattered you have friends there to help you out. Suddenly if it messes with peoples ratios they will no longer follow orders incase they get killed and revived and hampered because they perceive ratios as important and dont want to risk messing them up.

[Solidblock]

In truth though, you do exp for a kill even if he is revived, 5,2 or half a second later. How is that not fair to the killer? Because he could get killed by the guy who just got revived? Then be smart and have a medic around.

[Cuross]

Please elaborate. How is it not fair to the killer?

While I don't care about the killer since I still say yes and that KD shouldn't matter so much, I feel that it could be unfair since you are taking away a statistic that he rightly gave you. Basically you lost, and turning that into a revive statistic takes away his mark on you and the only thing he has to show for it is just another kill.

And regarding all the casuals who care about their KD, I don't know, I just find it hard to believe that there is going to be a significant amount of these "CoD/BF" kiddies that will be berating their revivers for any reason. I figure there might be the occasional whiner who will, but I don't think we will see an annoying amount.

My opinions.

[NewSith]

Games like battlefield use revives as death denial not only because of the ticket reason. Such way of things makes the class "decent" amongst casual players (match-based "publics" or zerg is actually more precise), because people actually care about how many medics there are. It also promotes teamplay among such people. And more importantly - it temps up the pace.

[Evahn]

Well technically, aren't we just unconscious or heavily wounded as long as we don't respawn? So if a medic "revives" me I wasn't really dead before.

People should be rewarded for holding out and waiting for a medic.

Actually, according the PS1 lore, you're pretty much dead as a doornail at that point. The difference is that you have your mind/intelligence hooked up to a big computer system, and the medic powers are using alien nanite technology to rebuild your body. So, whether your body is rebuilt partially while still on the battlefield via some medic, or whether your body is completely remade via a spawn tube, either way you're just having your intelligence/memories/skills/whatever uploaded back into your new or repaired body. And, either way, you were quite dead, which makes alot more sense anyways than just being "unconcious" after taking that tank shell to the head.

As far as the K/D ratio, they could always just have two kinds of deaths in your records: ones you were revived from, and ones you respawned from. That way you can still see your records clearly. In all honesty though, until it affects something outside my K/D ratio, I don't even care. I was often more interested in my assists, and how fast I could rack them up. A lucky/well done placement of an AMS truck (mobile spawn point) could easily rack up hundreds of assists per hour, although in all honesty you didn't seem to get much BEP out of it (battle experience points). Still, it was fun.

[Gonefshn]

I think it's a reward for good team play and should not be counted as a death. If you can be revived your not dead yet. Ok, maybe in PS2 (NANITES!!!) it could make sense but still. I always looked at revives in other shooters as continuing on the same life, just liked it better that way.

[Immigrant]

Hmmm... at first I though yes, but since it's won't disturb the killers stats and is probably going to promote use of medic then I'll vote no.

[Fek]

revives removing death ------> average K/D being higher ------> more CoD kiddies being happy because they have achieved their holy grail of a positive K/D --------> more CoD kiddies going for the objective instead of worrying about stats

therefore I voted "no".

[Graywolves]

You still died, someone still killed you, you were just revived where you left off as opposed to a respawn point.

[Meriv]

IMO it depends how exp is rewarded, if by killing or by damaging (this one is the one that works at least from what i remember).

But i would prefer a ticket for almost everything, hacks done/revived done/vehicles destroyed/ammo supplied etc...etc...

If it is by killing then there must be a ticket for a revived teamate, if not then no need of ticket(since you are getting the exp from damage, i prefer this one since there won't be a problem of kill steal)

Another thing for the K/D ratio, stats exist for a reason because they represent the reality, i bet we are going to see a "healing done"/damage done and damage taken stats probably. This one will be quite important for the casual players like me(since I don't have time to have an outfit and soo know everybody statistics) soo knowing instantly how good is the player i am associating with for this battle is quite basic information.

[Gonefshn]

You still died, someone still killed you, you were just revived where you left off as opposed to a respawn point.

Truly, but I still see a revive as a product of teamwork. You get knocked down and your buddy helps you back up.

There is also one HUGE factor that makes a difference in this question.
How does a revive work?

If you can instantly revive players ala BF3 then you do NOT want it to count as a death because being revived in the middle of an intense shootout can result in you dying again the second you are revived. That would be very frustrating.

It should only still count as a death if revives are happening in relative safety when people are catching their breathe and not under fire.

[drennam]

yes it should, you went toe to toe with other players and lost, you died.

its wasn't till AFTER you died that a medic came along and repaired vital tissues and re jumped your heart. everything was death as normal until that medic came into question.

being revived is enough of a bonus as it is

[GuyFawkes]

You still died, someone still killed you, you were just revived where you left off as opposed to a respawn point.

Exactly .

Teamwork is a given , not counting revives as a death rewards negative teamwork. As opposed to positive teamwork and removing your enemy.

If you in a tight outfit squad or similar , its no biggie , I'd revive as a matter of course . But if its some random dude on the floor , and this was in game , I'd be thinking he can just run back and kudos to who just killed him . Maybe it might learn him to play better in the long run.

[Eyeklops]

I think he is thinking the killer gets the kill taken away.

That's what I thought too, another case of people not caring to truly read or understand the OP. I posed the question so that hopefully he would go back and re-read, or first read the OP.


I feel that it could be unfair since you are taking away a statistic that he rightly gave you. Basically you lost, and turning that into a revive statistic takes away his mark on you and the only thing he has to show for it is just another kill.

Don't take this personally, but I can't remember the last time I was more interested in damaging another persons stats over making mine better. That may be getting into the realm of personal revenge and not a normally healthy thought process. If the killer still gets a kill recorded in his/her stats, then I don't see how it's unfair to them. It just feels like a weak argument to me.


You still died, someone still killed you, you were just revived where you left off as opposed to a respawn point.

Is this a "yes" or a "no"? It sounds like a "no", but not sure.

IMO it depends how exp is rewarded, if by killing or by damaging (this one is the one that works at least from what i remember).

But i would prefer a ticket for almost everything, hacks done/revived done/vehicles destroyed/ammo supplied etc...etc...

If it is by killing then there must be a ticket for a revived teamate, if not then no need of ticket(since you are getting the exp from damage, i prefer this one since there won't be a problem of kill steal)

Another thing for the K/D ratio, stats exist for a reason because they represent the reality, i bet we are going to see a "healing done"/damage done and damage taken stats probably. This one will be quite important for the casual players like me(since I don't have time to have an outfit and soo know everybody statistics) soo knowing instantly how good is the player i am associating with for this battle is quite basic information.

I think you posted in the wrong thread man. Not sure what the hell your talking about TBH.

[Meriv]

I think you posted in the wrong thread man. Not sure what the hell your talking about TBH.

ok a smaller answer

Yes

P.S. i wrote more because considering the revived a death will influence the stats

[GuyShep]

Any smart person wouldn't care about Kill/Death ratios in a game that gives little to no advantage to killing a lot of players, besides the fact that your opponents are dead.

Anybody who does care about K/D is already on a thin line on whether or not PS2 is a game that they can enjoy, based on the fact that the premise is large scale combat with multiple players working together towards various goals, not a few select individuals tearing through an entire theater's worth of soldiers and shooting down some final boss. If K/D is important to you, then there are many other factors other than your death count rising despite being revived that would deter you from this game. With this in mind, why alter a little thing that would only affect this sort of crowd? Keep in mind that this is a small one in any team-based game. Very rarely do you ever meet people who argue that assists, revives, etc. are meaningless compared to things such as killstreaks.

[Eyeklops]

Any smart person wouldn't care about Kill/Death ratios in a game that gives little to no advantage to killing a lot of players, besides the fact that your opponents are dead.

Anybody who does care about K/D is already on a thin line on whether or not PS2 is a game that they can enjoy, based on the fact that the premise is large scale combat with multiple players working together towards various goals, not a few select individuals tearing through an entire theater's worth of soldiers and shooting down some final boss. If K/D is important to you, then there are many other factors other than your death count rising despite being revived that would deter you from this game. With this in mind, why alter a little thing that would only affect this sort of crowd? Keep in mind that this is a small one in any team-based game. Very rarely do you ever meet people who argue that assists, revives, etc. are meaningless compared to things such as killstreaks.

Are you trying to stereotype a group of people and then proclaim what they like/dislike? I suspect that caring, or not caring, about K/D will not be a major factor in how well a player will like PS2, regardless of how the game counts deaths.

[Meriv]

If it is for what wrote probably i didn't express myself well.

For me depends how the experience is rewarded, if you get your experience by only killing the enemy or by the damage done, i think it is this last option from the videos i remember, soo there is no need of a ticket for the revived since you will still get your exp for knocking him out.

In the second part of the post i just wanted to stress the importance of the stats (not only k/d but others done, like healing done, haks, repair, etc..etc..) since a lot of persons were talking about the K/D ratio.

[Hmr85]

I vote we execute a few TR and VS players just to see if them being revived counts as a death or not. Its the only way to be sure.

[Purple]

Very odd question

Maybe they should have a revive /death counter? as medic , you revive someone , if they die again, you get a negative ratio. Would this stop you reviving people you know would only die and give you a bad rep as a medic?

See how it works both ways ?

if they die again. if you revive someone and they never die again then that person stopped playing the game.

[GuyFawkes]

if they die again. if you revive someone and they never die again then that person stopped playing the game.

So the guy that did the killing in first place achieved their objective , ie eradicating nc/vs scum

[Knotz]

Maybe the downed player can sort of crawl around like in Gears of War 2, but not shoot. and a headshot to the downed player will give no chance to revive (also if he is downed by a headshot then he is killed too)

If a medic revives the downed player, the person who puts him down doesnt get another kill (still gets experience for downing) but he can also keep shooting at the downed player (who will maybe get a 50% health bar when downed?) to kill him outright.

Any suggestions for improvement on that?

[Vreki]

The way I see it:
IF you care about K/D
THEN you see it as a measure of skill
SO not having skill enough to stay alive should be punished with a lower K/D.

It doesn't matter if you were "Wounded", "Incapacitated", "Unconscious" or "Slimed". You lost.
If a medic saves you the walk back to the frontlines then be thankful that you are back in the action, and quit trying to find legal loopholes around your demise

[Knotz]

K/D ONLY counts when you're playing Team Deathmatch. That is the ONLY time.

If you have a minus K/D spread in TDM then you were a hindrance to your team, giving the enemy team more kills than deaths. Not good.

BUT! as we all know Planetside is NOT about how many kills your team gets. It's about capturing bases. In that situation, K/D spread means sweet FA

[Stardouser]

If you are revived, you did not die. Bottom line. Death is only finalized when you respawn. To do otherwise is artificial stat manipulation. Or it's blatant anti KDR playstyle, but remember, we need those guys to fund the game.

[Trignite]

I don't think I can really answer this with a yes or no, personally I think it should be somewhere in-between. Maybe it could not count as a death the first time you are revived or count as half a death. its a pretty hard topic to deal with. If it didn't count as a death at all i am sure we will see people boosting but it would help give more of an incentive to reviving.

I am not very concerned about my k/d as long as i help my team out and having fun i don't mind running into the crossfire if its for a good cause. I am not saying i will completely forget about it though.

[Envenom]

Very interesting to see how split the community is on this topic. 50/50 split on the polls. I myself prefer it not to count, though if it did it wouldn't be the end of the world for me.

[Eyeklops]

Very interesting to see how split the community is on this topic. 50/50 split on the polls.

I really am enjoying the feedback in this thread. It does seem to be a very polarizing issue.

[Vreki]

If you are revived, you did not die. Bottom line. Death is only finalized when you respawn. To do otherwise is artificial stat manipulation.

If being revived is not a death, then killing someone who is later revived is not a kill either.

In both cases you are being rewarded / punished for things outside of your control. And that is artificial stat manipulation.

You can argue the semantics of what a "kill" or a "death" really means, but if you want to use K/D as a measure of your personal skill then you cannot boost it with the actions of others.

It is meaningless anyway in a game where one player may spend his entire career reviving others or piloting transports, while another spends his career dropping cluster munitions on spawn points.

[Crator]

If being revived is not a death, then killing someone who is later revived is not a kill either.

As long as there is a stat that tracks revives I'm not certain I care. But you are correct in that statement.....

[Stardouser]

If being revived is not a death, then killing someone who is later revived is not a kill either.

In both cases you are being rewarded / punished for things outside of your control. And that is artificial stat manipulation.

You can argue the semantics of what a "kill" or a "death" really means, but if you want to use K/D as a measure of your personal skill then you cannot boost it with the actions of others.

It is meaningless anyway in a game where one player may spend his entire career reviving others or piloting transports, while another spends his career dropping cluster munitions on spawn points.

What we found, anecdotally at least, in Battlefield games, was that when revives did not return deaths, people would beg not to be revived(this was before BF3 gave you the option). Have you never heard of the group Don't Revive Me Bro? And so in a ticket based game people would not want to be revived to preserve their KDR. Now, Planetside is not ticket based, but people who shun revives devalue medics and hurt their team by spending more time dead than necessary.

And we can demonize KDR-centric players all day long, but we need them to help pay for the game.

One thing we suggested for BF3 was the creation of a "takedown" stat, which you would receive in lieu of a kill every time someone you killed got revived. And vice versa a taken down stat, which you get instead of a death whenever you get revived. Ultimately DICE chose to simply have revives return deaths in BF3 but; in Planetside, takedown/taken down would be a very useful statistic. You see, if you get more takedowns than kills, it means you are lone wolfing and going up against organized squads, getting a kill or two, but then getting killed yourself and the enemy simply revives and moves on with no real harm done to them. And vice versa, someone with no taken-downs is either lone wolfing, or is running with squads with no medics, because they are never getting revived.

[Conq]

FPS nerds and their K/D obsessions...

http://forums.murderherd.com/images/smilies/new/jack.gif

[asdar]

I wouldn't count the kill because I think the killer didn't finish the job. I would count the death because you went down and couldn't get up. I'd give a stat to the medic for reviving you, so in this situation the only stat that's positive would be to the medic.

[Crator]

One thing we suggested for BF3 was the creation of a "takedown" stat, which you would receive in lieu of a kill every time someone you killed got revived.

I like that idea!

[jollytraveller]

I voted yes. If you die, you die and the stats should reflect that. I also think not counting the death also encourages people to further "play" for their K/D, which is already prevelant in FPS games and also not really what Planetside is all about. Often it's about throwing yourself in regardless of the risks to your K/D.

I do however think that revives from Medics should revive players with their implants or perks intact and some stamina, unlike Planetside 1. There should be some bonus to getting revived as opposed to just respawning. Perhaps these abailites will be available in the Medic tree.

[Gandhi]

No! Making it count as a death will give casual players -- i.e. COD/BF3 players who care about their KDR -- even less of an incentive to work as a team. However, making revives NOT count as a death will encourage them to stick closer to medics and their squad, as it will less likely damage their precious KDR if they go down. By showing these players the statistical benefits of playing as a team, they'll feel less inclined to go lone wolf.
Or they'll just sit there and yell for a medic to save their precious K/D stats when they could be respawned and helping the team already. In other words, the only time they'll be concerned about working in a team is when they're "dead" and needing a revive. Everything up to that point will be the same lone wolf mentality they had before, with the added difference that now they get all upset when a medic doesn't want to risk his neck to save their killstreak or something.

[Malorn]

Deaths shouldn't even be counted.

Tracking deaths as a stat only discourages risk-taking. Take that stat away and people are a lot more willing to go after objectives and do support activities when they aren't "punished" with a death when taking that risk doesn't work out.

[Vreki]

One thing we suggested for BF3 was the creation of a "takedown" stat, which you would receive in lieu of a kill every time someone you killed got revived. And vice versa a taken down stat, which you get instead of a death whenever you get revived. Ultimately DICE chose to simply have revives return deaths in BF3 but; in Planetside, takedown/taken down would be a very useful statistic. You see, if you get more takedowns than kills, it means you are lone wolfing and going up against organized squads, getting a kill or two, but then getting killed yourself and the enemy simply revives and moves on with no real harm done to them. And vice versa, someone with no takedowns is either lone wolfing, or is running with squads with no medics, because they are never getting revived.

Yes, I am well aware of the discussion in BF, and for that matter every other game which tracks that kind of stuff.

If we want these stats then Kills/Deaths or Takedowns/Takendown both make some kind of sense. But what I see here is people wanting TakeDowns/Deaths as the primary skill indicator. And that is just kidding yourself, since a T/D ratio of 1.0 still would mean that you are doing poorly from a purely narcissistic FPS perspective.

[Stardouser]

Yes, I am well aware of the discussion in BF, and for that matter every other game which tracks that kind of stuff.

If we want these stats then Kills/Deaths or Takedowns/Takendown both make some kind of sense. But what I see here is people wanting TakeDowns/Deaths as the primary skill indicator. And that is just kidding yourself, since a K/T ratio of 1.0 still would mean that you are doing poorly from a purely narcissistic FPS perspective.

I hate KDR-centric players as much as anyone but I don't think we can just alienate them since we need them to fund the game(seriously, I suspect there won't be a PS3 if KDR players can't be successfully integrated), so we can't just eliminate KDR. But what we can do, is BURY KDR in a sea of other more important stats - capture point hacks, revives, kills you get when you are a MAX and you fall on an enemy infantry from a height(joke, but that would be funny, MAX Stomp we could call it), etc.

[Trignite]

I wouldn't count the kill because I think the killer didn't finish the job. I would count the death because you went down and couldn't get up. I'd give a stat to the medic for reviving you, so in this situation the only stat that's positive would be to the medic.

I kind of agree if you didn't wait for the guy to time out so he can't be revived (I have no idea if this is actually in PS2) then you didn't finish the job. Maybe you could have some sort of finishing mechanic where you could go to the enemy body and do something so they can't be revived but I don't really think that would work very well.

But really I am not concerned too much about this as its just for stats, either way works for me but as I said before I would prefer something in between the two. to help give more incentive to reviving and sticking close to your team mates while not making it so people can get insanely high k/d or boosting stats.

I don't want people to start basing peoples skill solely on k/d.

[WolfAlmighty]

Holy crap, Vreki's here!

Personally I don't care one way or the other as I'm not interested in personal statistics, but having a revive negate both a death and a kill makes the most logical sense. All I hope is that the developers don't do anything because of the 'CoD kiddies'. My lord how that ruined the BF franchise.

[ChipMHazard]

Deaths shouldn't even be counted.

Tracking deaths as a stat only discourages risk-taking. Take that stat away and people are a lot more willing to go after objectives and do support activities when they aren't "punished" with a death when taking that risk doesn't work out.

I agree.

The reason why reviving works the way it does in BF3 is because of the ticket system. There is no such need in PS2 so I don't see any reason why it wouldn't count, other than it being silly from a logical standpoint; if you got revived you never actually died.
However I still agree with Malorn.

[Gandhi]

I hate KDR-centric players as much as anyone but I don't think we can just alienate them since we need them to fund the game(seriously, I suspect there won't be a PS3 if KDR players can't be successfully integrated), so we can't just eliminate KDR. But what we can do, is BURY KDR in a sea of other more important stats - capture point hacks, revives, kills you get when you are a MAX and you fall on an enemy infantry from a height(joke, but that would be funny, MAX Stomp we could call it), etc.
I still like the idea of making a points system the primary statistic that's shown on screen, with everything else like K/D available to call up through your character sheet.

Tribes has a similar system. You're still given points for kills, but also for team actions like repairing defenses, defending the flag, capping a flag, returning a flag and so on. They go a step further and tie points into spawning vehicles and using special abilities, maybe in PS2 they could be tied into XP gain. Point is you try to maximize your points with each life, and the best way to do that is to help the team. This way you gently push new players into the teamwork actions while still keeping all the stats that everyone loves.

[Exidius]

Just make it count as a kill and not as a death. Meaning the killer gets +1 for their kill and the revived doesn`t get a death. Because being revived while under fire otherwise ends up being VERY unpopular. People don t want risky (statwise) rivives.

[Vreki]

I hate KDR-centric players as much as anyone but I don't think we can just alienate them since we need them to fund the game(seriously, I suspect there won't be a PS3 if KDR players can't be successfully integrated), so we can't just eliminate KDR. But what we can do, is BURY KDR in a sea of other more important stats - capture point hacks, revives, kills you get when you are a MAX and you fall on an enemy infantry from a height(joke, but that would be funny, MAX Stomp we could call it), etc.

I know, and PS2 should have plenty of room for all kinds af gamers.
But it always annoys me when we start seing the arguments about why they didnt really die despite the Vanguard trackmarks on their face, while the enemy walking around over there is obviously dead as a doornail.

I also hate when people call a K/D ratio between 0 and 1 for negative, but that seems to be a losing battle. :(

[Grognard]

Hmm. That depends. What are we counting deaths for?

If we're talking about "should revives count against you when it comes to frequent deaths increasing your respawn timer?" I'd say no, only respawns should count against that metric. Should reviving me negate the enemy who killed me's kill? No, the guy who killed me should still be awarded a kill. Should reviving me leave the death in my K/D ratio? I don't give a shit about KDR. And so on.

This is the correct answer, in my opinion.

We need to precisely define "kill". Before a respawn click, are you wounded to incapacitation, or dead? I googled the definition of revive and got this:

1. Restore to life or consciousness: "both men collapsed, but were revived".
2. Regain life, consciousness, or strength.

It can work both ways by simple definition, so we need context. Therefore, I agree with the contextual approach from Kaffis. I picked yes on the poll, but only to reward the soldier who did their job. Seems to me, there are other "jobs" to reward, specifically, and most importantly, the Medic.

Edit:
Looks like that realistically would leave us with a "K/R" ratio... Kill/Respawn count, Medics effecting the second stat. Although, nothing says they cant do a K/R/R, Kill/Respawn/Revive counter.

[Trignite]

I hate KDR-centric players as much as anyone but I don't think we can just alienate them since we need them to fund the game(seriously, I suspect there won't be a PS3 if KDR players can't be successfully integrated), so we can't just eliminate KDR. But what we can do, is BURY KDR in a sea of other more important stats - capture point hacks, revives, kills you get when you are a MAX and you fall on an enemy infantry from a height(joke, but that would be funny, MAX Stomp we could call it), etc.

I agree with burying K/D with a bunch of other team based stats, people should focus on those instead. Players who want to just look at k/d can still do that but it should be a small statistic one that isn't in massive bolded numbers taking up half of the profile page. like other games.

Just make it count as a kill and not as a death. Meaning the killer gets +1 for their kill and the revived doesn`t get a death. Because being revived while under fire otherwise ends up being VERY unpopular. People don t want risky (statwise) rivives.


Pretty sure that is what OP is talking about i doubt anyone wants a system that doesn't give a kill to someone just because they got revived.

[Wayside]

In Planetside 1, if you died, a death registered on the K/D counter even if you were revived. Some other shooters do not count it as a death if you are revived. What do you think? Should being revived not count as a death?

I am not talking about removing anything from the killers stats or points, just the player who was killed.

Yes.

Reviving a fellow player doesn't change the fact that they got their face blown off. It just provides a method of returning to action that is more convenient for them and their squad than running back from the nearest spawn, or blowing their squad spawn cooldown (which should be significant in my opinion).


Dead dude gets a D added to his K/D ratio.
Shooter gets credit for the KILL.
The medic steps in for the revive.

Step 3 should not go backwards in time and erase all record of the first two steps.

[Synapse]

Ps2 has no killstreak rewards. I dont want people hanging around waiting for medics to boost their K/D

Absolutely yes it must count.

[Eyeklops]

Dead dude gets a D added to his K/D ratio.

Corrected?

[NewSith]

Ps2 has no killstreak rewards. I dont want people hanging around waiting for medics to boost their K/D

Absolutely yes it must count.

Look at it the other way - you're running through heaviest enem fire to rez a dude and tht dude simply respawns because he already got extra D to his score, and he doesn't want to die again. That certain situation results in death of both, because upon arriving medic remains alone.

In PS1 the only real use for an ADV Medic outside teamplay was reviving maxes. That surely isn't a written truth, but generally it IS true.

[maddoggg]

One of the very few things i liked in BF3.

Having a rambo medic reviving you 10 times in a row in front of enemies ... grrrrrrr.

But in BF3 it doesn't matter.
a) The team regains the lost ticket
b) If i don't feel like i don't have to accept the revive

It's sort of a bonus for sticking around with your squad mates.


In the end - it doesn't matter.
I would remove KDR tracking completely anyways.

Completely agree.
If revives improve your K/D that would also draw K/D padders to play together in a squad.
But just like you said,i would prefer K/D to be removed completely.

[Crator]

I don't understand the "I don't want any K/D stats" camp. Who cares? Because someone will try to shove the stats in their face to tell them how better they are then you? If you don't care about that stat then tell them why and then show them the other stats that disprove the crap they are trying to shovel in your face.

[Xyntech]

Since kills don't count towards winning a base capture, getting revived could remove your death, but let the enemy keep their kill. Any abuse of this system could be tracked by the in game exploit software and CSR's.

Also, how many times you have been revived should also be tracked (as I'm sure it will be), so that if you added your number of deaths to your number of revives, you could see what your actual total number of times getting killed was.

Ps2 has no killstreak rewards. I dont want people hanging around waiting for medics to boost their K/D

I'm not in favor of encouraging people to play for K/D ratios, but waiting to get revived by a medic is generally good practice in a lot of situations. I don't care if they are waiting for a revive for the wrong reasons, it's a good thing if they are waiting for a revive.

Obviously if they are waiting for a revive in a situation where it is highly unlikely to happen and it would be better for the team if they just respawned, that would be bad, but no worse than those some K/D idiots camping and trying to play as safe as possible to avoid dying in the first place. At least with the medic thing, they may be more willing to take risks if a medic is around.

[kaffis]

Although, nothing says they cant do a K/R/R, Kill/Respawn/Revive counter.
Nice. That would be a fun counter. So who really plays with teammates who work together?

[Eyeklops]

Damn, the poll numbers are still really close.

[Synapse]

Other posters make a great point. How can you give the shooter a kill point if you dont count a death point? The stats should balance.

This makes me even more certain that it should count as a death.

[NewSith]

Damn, the poll numbers are still really close.

A poll like this caused the explosion of Discovery-7.

[Wings]

I voted no because I think it would incourage more people to revive people and work as a team.

Aslong as the enemy still gets the kill point there's no problem.

[Rumblepit]

OHHHHHHH NOOOOOOS MY POOOR KD????? really???? your dead, thats it!!!!!! buy a kd reset if your that worried about it. . they will be in the market place im sure.

[Xyntech]

Other posters make a great point. How can you give the shooter a kill point if you dont count a death point? The stats should balance.

This makes me even more certain that it should count as a death.

As long as there is a revive counter, it should be fine either way.

If getting revived removes the death count, then you could just add the revive count to the death count to see how many times you have been killed.

If getting revived doesn't affect death count, then you could just remove the number of revives from the number of deaths to see how many times you actually had to respawn.

That is assuming there isn't respawn counter in addition to a death counter, which wouldn't surprise me. Hell, we'll probably be able to track how many times we've respawned out of Player ABC321's Galaxy, or how many times we've spawned out of Spawn Tube #2 at Zurvan AMP Station.

Really, most of the importance of this discussion boils down to shitty K/D ratio whores and what would be the best way to make them less useless. I think that having them take more chances when medics are around would outweigh the downside of having them waiting forever for a revive that won't come. If they are just turtling to avoid being killed, they are just as useless as a dead player waiting for a revive, so why not encourage them to actually push at certain times, through the use of medics removing one of their deaths?

But K/D obsessed people will still be shitty players for the team, so I don't feel too strongly about it either way. I do think removing a death upon revive would still be slightly better over all though.

[Rumblepit]

As long as there is a revive counter, it should be fine either way.

If getting revived removes the death count, then you could just add the revive count to the death count to see how many times you have been killed.

If getting revived doesn't affect death count, then you could just remove the number of revives from the number of deaths to see how many times you actually had to respawn.

That is assuming there isn't respawn counter in addition to a death counter, which wouldn't surprise me. Hell, we'll probably be able to track how many times we've respawned out of Player ABC321's Galaxy, or how many times we've spawned out of Spawn Tube #2 at Zurvan AMP Station.

Really, most of the importance of this discussion boils down to shitty K/D ratio whores and what would be the best way to make them less useless. I think that having them take more chances when medics are around would outweigh the downside of having them waiting forever for a revive that won't come If they are just turtling to avoid being killed, they are just as useless as a dead player waiting for a revive, so why not encourage them to actually push at certain times, through the use of medics removing one of their deaths?

But K/D obsessed people will still be shitty players for the team, so I don't feel too strongly about it either way. I do think removing a death upon revive would still be slightly better over all though.


you got that right!!!!!!! i can see it now 35 noobs on the ground crying for a medic while the base is getting hacked, all because they want a good kd.

kd should reflect how good a player is.... not how long he is willing to wait for a medic.....

this will slow gameplay down quite a bit aswell. wont see it in ps2 im sure

[NewSith]

you got that right!!!!!!! i can see it now 35 noobs on the ground crying for a medic while the base is getting hacked, all because they want a good kd.

kd should reflect how good a player is.... not how long he is willing to wait for a medic.....

this will slow gameplay down quite a bit aswell. wont see it in ps2 im sure

I already see 65 more newbs lying on the ground waiting for a medic, because respawning will mean the loss of the CC. Add 35 K/D farmers to the crowd and that's pretty much decent defense force.

[Karmic Revenge]

Dead is dead. Every death should count. Medics should get a revived counter to track how many people they've saved in a session as well.

[Xyntech]

you got that right!!!!!!! i can see it now 35 noobs on the ground crying for a medic while the base is getting hacked, all because they want a good kd.

kd should reflect how good a player is.... not how long he is willing to wait for a medic.....

this will slow gameplay down quite a bit aswell. wont see it in ps2 im sure

Maybe you missed the part where I support revives removing a death?

Tl;dr, K/D ratio whores will damage the pace of the game no matter what. At least with a death removal, they will sometimes push when a medic is around.



Somehow I doubt that most K/D players are going to wait around for a revive for as long a time as they would wait around for a sniper shot or an ambush.

K/D doesn't reflect how good a player is anyways. That's K/D whore mentality right there, and it's blatantly wrong. So who gives a shit if there is a system in place that gives them a little assistance in padding their stats? As long as it gets them off their asses to push into dangerous situations occasionally, I call it progress.

Just so long as the game doesn't glorify K/D ratios. No need to encourage the mindset.

[Toppopia]

I say that being revived shouldn't count as a death, but then have another statistic that is "Times revived" then maybe another one that says "Deaths + Revives" Or just have them separate so people can combine them if they need to.

[Xyntech]

I say that being revived shouldn't count as a death, but then have another statistic that is "Times revived" then maybe another one that says "Deaths + Revives" Or just have them separate so people can combine them if they need to.

Yep. With all of the data streams we'll have available, I'm sure we'll be able to write our own stat trackers that will do all of the combining for us.

[Phellix]

The death should be counted as a death because it is a death.

This, just because you have someone to revive you doesn't mean you shouldn't take a death when you DIE. This poll seems silly and i'm shocked that it's a close vote.

[Rumblepit]

Maybe you missed the part where I support revives removing a death?

Tl;dr, K/D ratio whores will damage the pace of the game no matter what. At least with a death removal, they will sometimes push when a medic is around.



Somehow I doubt that most K/D players are going to wait around for a revive for as long a time as they would wait around for a sniper shot or an ambush.

K/D doesn't reflect how good a player is anyways. That's K/D whore mentality right there, and it's blatantly wrong. So who gives a shit if there is a system in place that gives them a little assistance in padding their stats? As long as it gets them off their asses to push into dangerous situations occasionally, I call it progress.

Just so long as the game doesn't glorify K/D ratios. No need to encourage the mindset.

no i didnt!!!!! me can read:) lol


thought it was clear what i was referring to . next time ill be more specific and just quote a paragraph :love:

[Anderz]

Somehow I doubt that most K/D players are going to wait around for a revive for as long a time as they would wait around for a sniper shot or an ambush.

K/D doesn't reflect how good a player is anyways. That's K/D whore mentality right there, and it's blatantly wrong. So who gives a shit if there is a system in place that gives them a little assistance in padding their stats? As long as it gets them off their asses to push into dangerous situations occasionally, I call it progress.

Just so long as the game doesn't glorify K/D ratios. No need to encourage the mindset.
This. If you don't care about KDR and similar statistics, then you shouldn't care that other players do.

What you should care about is that these other players are compelled to work more as a team if the game rewards their statistics for doing so.

Thus, any gameplay mechanic that indirectly rewards team play is a great addition to the game.

So give the killer their kill, the reviver their revive, and the revivee an uncounted death. Who cares how realistic this may or may not be; if you want better team work in the game, this is the only answer.

[Stardouser]

So give the killer their kill, the reviver their revive, and the revivee an uncounted death. Who cares how realistic this may or may not be; if you want better team work in the game, this is the only answer.

Realistic? Thanks for bringing realism up, because it allows the introduction of a sensational argument: So in real life, everyone who has to be resuscitated should be granted a death certificate and treated as a new person? Or does being revived mean you didn't die?

An extreme and sensational argument but that's where the realism argument goes.

[Anderz]

Realistic? Thanks for bringing realism up, because it allows the introduction of a sensational argument: So in real life, everyone who has to be resuscitated should be granted a death certificate and treated as a new person? Or does being revived mean you didn't die?

An extreme and sensational argument but that's where the realism argument goes.

The realism debate never ends well because it takes the focus away for what's important: gameplay, and what will better serve it.

[Xyntech]

The realism debate never ends well because it takes the focus away for what's important: gameplay, and what will better serve it.

Also, real or not, it doesn't matter what is "obvious" or "straightforward" either.

K/D whores are bad for the game, but they will also be present in the game. You could try to actively get rid of those players, but you would probably lose a lot of other players in the process. PS2 needs large numbers of players to function properly, so let's just assume that we will be playing alongside a few of these types of players.

To that end, I'd rather support a system that improves those players tendency to contribute to the fight, no matter how convoluted or realistic or weird it may be.

It's not like this is that important of a topic, but I just have to side with the one option being slightly better for gameplay than the other, and gameplay should always be the most important concern.

[Stardouser]

The realism debate never ends well because it takes the focus away for what's important: gameplay, and what will better serve it.

That's why I don't like to use realism as a marker for what game mechanics should or shouldn't be, but you mentioned it, so I took the opportunity :)

[Dairian]

I always wished during the merit kill streaks you could be revived to avoid having to redo. If you are revived you it shouldn't count as one imo.

When you die you die. And if you are revived you were still dead or you couldn't have be revived. And I believe it should count in your stats. If not people being followed by a medic could have crazy K/D.

So what your saying is if I kill an enemy and they are revived I shouldn't get the kill if they are revived by a medic?

Or are you just saying this for achievements?

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110609070853/dragonball/images/c/ca/Nar_dead_kid_goku.png

[Xyntech]

If not people being followed by a medic could have crazy K/D.

Problem?

K/D ratio is generally an irrelevant stat.

[Dairian]

Problem?

K/D ratio is generally an irrelevant stat.

That it is but it will be in the game because they are releasing all information. And if it is irrelevant why does it matter if it counts or not?

[Toppopia]

Would it be possible to show Kills/Deaths. Deaths/Revives. And show kill/deaths not counting revives, and kill/death that does count revives, then have total amount of times revived? Is that possible to account for all situations? So someone who cares about K/D can only look at the kill/death that does count reviving as not dying, and such?

[Xyntech]

That it is but it will be in the game because they are releasing all information. And if it is irrelevant why does it matter if it counts or not?

Because there are people who care about it. These people are idiots, but it's hard to change their minds. So it would be better to let them pad their stats through a mechanism that's better for team work than to just leave them alone to camp in a useless spot for hours.

Glorifying K/D front and center in kill screens and stat screens would be bad, because it would encourage obsessing over K/D ratio and make more players think it was an important stat. Encouraging players who already play this way to do things that are better for their empire won't encourage this style of gameplay though, it will only help team work.

It probably won't help it much though. Those players can be pretty stupid.

[DarkApothecary]

No that it just stupid, if people die even from getting revived I'm not goning to run over there and save them, it's stupid.

[Dairian]

Because there are people who care about it. These people are idiots, but it's hard to change their minds. So it would be better to let them pad their stats through a mechanism that's better for team work than to just leave them alone to camp in a useless spot for hours.

Glorifying K/D front and center in kill screens and stat screens would be bad, because it would encourage obsessing over K/D ratio and make more players think it was an important stat. Encouraging players who already play this way to do things that are better for their empire won't encourage this style of gameplay though, it will only help team work.

It probably won't help it much though. Those players can be pretty stupid.

Then lets not give them a mechanic that can let them pad there stats. Letting the stat not count when they get revived will just boost there ego.

[Crator]

Simple fix, glorify the team based stats and keep the non-team based stats in the background. But still, let those that wish to argue over K/D stats if they want to. They're going to anyways. And if you come across someone trying to argue with you about K/D just show them your team based stats. If their team based stats suck in comparison then just push that into their face and tell them they suck at the game b/c of it.... Problem solved... Think of it as a training tool for non-team based players....

[TeaLeaf]

No.

Mainly because it stops stupid players that care too much about KDR from refusing to revive near the action. It's more to stop hard working medics being let down by idiots than anything else.

[SKYeXile]

no point in even having a K/D ratio if the amount of kills dont equal the amount of (deaths-suicides) at that point you may aswell award everybody in your squad a kill when somebody in your squad gets a kill, you're making stats that meaningless.

[Stardouser]

no point in even having a K/D ratio if the amount of kills dont equal the amount of (deaths-suicides) at that point you may aswell award everybody in your squad a kill when somebody in your squad gets a kill, you're making stats that meaningless.

No, that's not true. Deaths that are revived aren't deaths, the real issue is whether or not kills should be split into kills and takedowns.

[Papscal]

Dead is dead, how the fuck can this even be a topic? Anyone who thinks ya cant count a death as a death is certainly swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool. But hey even tards are welcome in a free mmo/fps.

[Blackwolf]

Yes. The only time it makes sense to not count as a death would be in a ticket-based system like Battlefield's conquest mode. Otherwise hell, you'll get people who refuse to revive themselves to preserve their K/D ratio and wait for a medic for a long time, taking up server space.

This is the point that sold me. People are obsessive with their silly K/D ratio and will wait for minutes for a revive.

Revival should be a squad tactic. So maybe if you're in a squad and your squad medic revives you, then the death is subtracted from your score. That give you an incentive to group with medics and keep them alive.

[Vanu Techpriest]

I think it should count as a death but the second death (after you are revived) should not be counted especially if you are able to revive someone multiple times.

[Zulthus]

K/D as a stat in general is pointless and stupid, even more that people care about it so much IMO. We'd be much better of with SKYeXile's suggestion of score per minute, it is much more accurate and detailed of one's performance.


But, to answer the poll question, yes, it should. You were killed. The only difference being you don't have to run all the way back from a Galaxy.

[Papscal]

No, that's not true. Deaths that are revived aren't deaths, the real issue is whether or not kills should be split into kills and takedowns.

Wrong. Stop trying to rename what is a death. If you need a team member to get you back on your feet your fucking dead son. If i take a guy down and hes incapacitated hes dead. If hes not ill put one more in his head. I have no problem with finishing the deed.

[SKYeXile]

No, that's not true. Deaths that are revived aren't deaths, the real issue is whether or not kills should be split into kills and takedowns.

its not true in games like BF3, but in any other game with half decent stat tracking the amount of kills = deaths-suicides.

[Stew]

If you cant choose if you accept the revive NO if you cant Yes it all depend on thats so as it is now it seams you will be able to accept or not the revive so i think the dead should count ...

or another solution is implementing a bleedout timer and (( kill ) so when your on the ground if a ennemy finish you off the dead count or if the time of the bleed out timer run out the dead count But if you get revive before the bleed out time is finish and you did not get executed while on the ground the dead should not count ! ( also headshot and heavy explosive must be Dead 100 % dead !

[Phellix]

This thread is retarded

what the fuck games have you guys been playing that a death shouldn't count as a death? Seriously, i don't fucking get it. It's a shooter, kill people, die, respawn, kill people. Revive is for tactical use not killstreaks. Holy fuck.

[Stardouser]

its not true in games like BF3, but in any other game with half decent stat tracking the amount of kills = deaths-suicides.

You're simply not using logic. If the player is revived and does not respawn, then death is not final. Period.

As for decent stat tracking, THAT is a different issue, isn't it? It has ZERO bearing on the logic of whether a revived death should count. And it's already been covered. Create a takedown statistic.

In fact, having all revives count as deaths is equally poor for stat tracking. A player that runs with medics and organized squad play that often gets revived, will seem like he's dying a lot. Again, takedown/taken down stats.

This thread is retarded

what the fuck games have you guys been playing that a death shouldn't count as a death? Seriously, i don't fucking get it. It's a shooter, kill people, die, respawn, kill people. Revive is for tactical use not killstreaks. Holy fuck.

Killstreaks? You think people are saying this because of killstreaks? NOW I know where some of this is coming from. We shouldn't even have killstreaks. This isn't CoD.

But since the devs are going to put in killstreaks anyway, if you are revived, that should stop your killstreak.

[Stew]

its not true in games like BF3, but in any other game with half decent stat tracking the amount of kills = deaths-suicides.

They did thats in Bf3 because the (( accept )) or denied revive did not work well in the beta and also some people keep reviving you to get kill again and again is thats fair ? then they ad this No dead until you respawn their the kill count !

but for me its a + for a - because yes it prevent you to get kill over and over while a idiot revive you .

And in the other hand it just make people who play a lot whith good team mates have a very high kdr because most of their dead dosent count ! And and problem is IN BF3 their is no real bleedout mechanics or headshot punishsment to denied a revive

For me headshot = no revive at all its instant bleedout
Heavy explosive such as grenade = No revive
Claymore and c4 = revive since its very noob friendly and lame
Bodyshot legs shot = revive

bleedout timer after thats their is no revive possible
Ennemy can bleed you out if they shot at you while your on the ground and you body is still sligthly mooving laying on the ground

This is the only way to fix issue about this whole thing

[SKYeXile]

You're simply not using logic. If the player is revived and does not respawn, then death is not final. Period.

As for decent stat tracking, THAT is a different issue, isn't it? It has ZERO bearing on the logic of whether a revived death should count. And it's already been covered. Create a takedown statistic.



Killstreaks? You think people are saying this because of killstreaks? NOW I know where some of this is coming from. We shouldn't even have killstreaks. This isn't CoD.

I'm not using logic, your saying a player that is revived never died? how the fuck could they have been revived then? anyway, we could argue about logic or dictionary meanings ina video game, but thats deviating from the real issue of:

If a player got bested by another player, that should be tracked on the "killers" stats and the person who "died" stats. simple as that, if thats not done, you may aswell put a big fucking care bear on the stats page.

[FPClark]

Deaths shouldn't even be counted.

Tracking deaths as a stat only discourages risk-taking. Take that stat away and people are a lot more willing to go after objectives and do support activities when they aren't "punished" with a death when taking that risk doesn't work out.

Agreed 100% Remove the "deaths" stat from the game and you remove the problem...You can still have suicides and other random useless stats but you can *** the whole KDR fight (from boths sideds) in the bud if you dont give the death stat to begin with. :rofl:

[Wayside]

Corrected?

No one saw that.
>_>
<_<





x_x

[Stardouser]

I'm not using logic, your saying a player that is revived never died? how the fuck could they have been rived then, anyway, we could argue about logic or dictionary meanings ina video game, but thats deviating from the real issue of:

If a player got bested by another player, that should be tracked on the "killers" stats and the person who "died" stats. simple as that, if thats not done, you may aswell put a big fucking care bear on the stats page.

Even if they died, then the revive still takes it away.

If a lone wolf attacks a squad, kills one or 2 guys before dying himself, and the squad then revives the two and moves on, did the lone wolf really "best" anyone?

[SKYeXile]

K/D as a stat in general is pointless and stupid, even more that people care about it so much IMO. We'd be much better of with SKYeXile's suggestion of score per minute, it is much more accurate and detailed of one's performance.


But, to answer the poll question, yes, it should. You were killed. The only difference being you don't have to run all the way back from a Galaxy.

I agree with my opinion that the most weighted stat should be score/min, but if you're gonna track K/D, atleast do it right.

[SKYeXile]

Even if they died, then the revive still takes it away.

If a lone wolf attacks a squad, kills one or 2 guys before dying himself, and the squad then revives the two and moves on, did the lone wolf really "best" anyone?

LOL! yes...he killed 2 people that were grouped and who should have easily been able to kill him before he even did 30% damage to one person. their failure as players should be noted.

[Stardouser]

LOL! yes...he killed 2 people that were grouped and who should have easily been able to kill him before he even did 30% damage to one person. their failure as players should be noted.

Incorrect. While the PS2 TTK is yet to be finalized, in most games it's low enough to jump out of your hiding spot and get a kill or two. The lone wolf then dies without revive for running without a squad while the squad he attacked continues essentially unharmed after reviving.

You continue talk about good stat tracking, and you've been offered a stat tracking alternative(takedowns/taken down) and yet continue to support a system that gives people extra kills and extra deaths and thus can't be used to properly analyze a player.

[SKYeXile]

Incorrect. While the PS2 TTK is yet to be finalized, in most games it's low enough to jump out of your hiding spot and get a kill or two. The lone wolf then dies without revive for running without a squad while the squad he attacked continues essentially unharmed after reviving.

You continue talk about good stat tracking, and you've been offered a stat tracking alternative(takedowns/taken down) and yet continue to support a system that gives people extra kills and extra deaths and thus can't be used to properly analyze a player.

Planetside 1's system gives people extra kills and deaths? you sir have proved you're down their with people like Traak and thus are not worth having conversation with.

[GreatMazinkaise]

Not seeing what the issue is... you died. Your med buddy tossed you a Phoenix Down and you got back up; doesn't mean you didn't die.

I'm all for giving Medics a revive stat, but that's his deal, not yours. You died and somebody OTHER THAN YOU fixed it.

[Stew]

Planetside 1's system gives people extra kills and deaths? you sir have proved you're down their with people like Traak and thus are not worth having conversation with.

I think you can stop insulting people everytime you troll with them it could be nice from you ! cant wait to se what you actually worth in game

[GreatMazinkaise]

I think you can stop insulting people everytime you troll with them it could be nice from you ! cant wait to se what you actually worth in game

Says PSU's #1 Troll...

[SKYeXile]

I think you can stop insulting people everytime you troll with them it could be nice from you ! cant wait to se what you actually worth in game

History has a habit of repeating itself.

[Stardouser]

Planetside 1's system gives people extra kills and deaths? you sir have proved you're down their with people like Traak and thus are not worth having conversation with.

Are we talking about PS1? Did you really just try to imply that because PS1 doesn't return the death from a revive that that must therefore be the right way to do it?

No, we are talking about what PS2 should do for stats. A system that gives you kills for repeatedly killing someone that's being revived, and for being repeatedly killed while being revived, is indeed providing extra deaths and kills on both sides, watering down the stats. And don't bother with semantics on the word "give". You know exactly what is meant.

I can see you won't debate the issue and will rely on discrediting people for going against PS1.

[SKYeXile]

Are we talking about PS1? Did you really just try to imply that because PS1 doesn't return the death from a revive that that must therefore be the right way to do it?

No, we are talking about what PS2 should do for stats. A system that gives you kills for repeatedly killing someone that's being revived, and for being repeatedly killed while being revived, is indeed providing extra deaths and kills on both sides, watering down the stats.

I can see you won't debate the issue and will rely on discrediting people for going against PS1.

dont accept the revive if you're camped then, pretty simple.

[Stew]

dont accept the revive if you're camped then, pretty simple.

the accept denied revive mechanics did not work well in BF3 beta thats why they remoove it so we will see if it work better for Ps2 ;)

[SKYeXile]

the accept denied revive mechanics did not work well in BF3 beta thats why they remoove it so we will see if it work better for Ps2 ;)

Yes because DICE's renowned shitty coding has a bearing on SOE's coding :/ the accept revive already looks to already work fine.

[Hamma]

Dead is dead, how the fuck can this even be a topic? Anyone who thinks ya cant count a death as a death is certainly swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool. But hey even tards are welcome in a free mmo/fps.

Calm down killer.

[Sifer2]

Honestly they should not be counting deaths at all. We went over it in another thread way back some time ago. It encourages the K/D whore style of gameplay over teamwork. And makes you not want to play a support class that isn't good at getting kills as it just hurts your stupid ratio.

[Otleaz]

Remove every stat except facilities captured and facilities defended.

Even those two stats are pretty worthless, but they are better than the alternative. Score is meaningless in team games.

[Dougnifico]

No, but it should still count as a kill.

[Anderz]

Remove every stat except facilities captured and facilities defended.

Even those two stats are pretty worthless, but they are better than the alternative. Score is meaningless in team games.

Do that and you lose a huge percentage of the player base, killing PS2 before it even begins.

If you don't care about stats, don't look at them.

[Unforgiven]

if it doesnt count as a death then i think people will play medics more often. this is always a good thing

[Dairian]

Are we talking about PS1? Did you really just try to imply that because PS1 doesn't return the death from a revive that that must therefore be the right way to do it?

No, we are talking about what PS2 should do for stats. A system that gives you kills for repeatedly killing someone that's being revived, and for being repeatedly killed while being revived, is indeed providing extra deaths and kills on both sides, watering down the stats. And don't bother with semantics on the word "give". You know exactly what is meant.

I can see you won't debate the issue and will rely on discrediting people for going against PS1.

Revive timer fixes this problem. If you die you can be revived instantly but if you die again within a time limit then you will have a spawn timer. The more you die the longer your timer.

But a death is a death. Revive brings you back to life. Therefore you were dead.

[Drakkonan]

They should just not record deaths at all. For the most part, it's a useless stat.

[james]

No, if there is any type of quick rev in this game. If anyone played bc2, its was so annoying, you could be at 7 and 1 then 1 min later 7 and 5 because some idiot decides enemies shooting lets get you up

[SKYeXile]

I want to laugh at you too, sorry.

There need to be a player rating in planetside 2 :)

[Cuross]

Let's remove all the ego centers of everyone's brains and give them back when we achieve BR 10 :)

Quite honestly, my favorite compromise was the idea that there should be a k/d and k/d+r statistic. That way if some stat padder comes up to me showing off his "mad 1337 skillz" as an HA, and after I've finished laughing at the absurdity of his pride I can just ask him his k/d+r stat and continue laughing in his face :P

I still voted yes, but that would be my favorite compromise.

[Kitsune]

I think taking a bullet or two would count as being killed. It's not like we're throwing cheese.

[TAA]

I usually play medics. One thing I can do without is all the whining and begging for revives. If I choose to give you a revive you should be thankful. You still died. It was your fault. I am not going to rush out into the open to revive you so that you can keep your pristine K/D ratio. I will do it so that you can keep trying to crack that objective.

Let players opt out of being revived. Keep the death on their stats. I prefer to practice preventive medicine. Keeping all deaths recorded means people care more about their lives, and keeps the whining down.

[Notser]

Let me just say this, KDR is the worst stat ever for a game with respawns. It really means nothing, there isn't a correlation between one single player's kdr and the teams win/lose record. I enjoy the medic mechanic, Wolfenstein and BF worked well for the most part. Why not just continue a system roughly around reviving a player, if players feel they need to revive to avoid a death in a stat sheet then they need more help than a simple number value being there or not can fix.

[Stardouser]

Revive timer fixes this problem. If you die you can be revived instantly but if you die again within a time limit then you will have a spawn timer. The more you die the longer your timer.

But a death is a death. Revive brings you back to life. Therefore you were dead.

But you're not any longer, so continuing to pile on deaths is ridiculous. You played with your team, got revived, and didn't stay dead. The only non-ridiculous solution is the addition of the takedown statistic. There must be statistical differentiation between forcing the enemy to respawn or not.

[Daffan]

I believe that;

The killer should still get a KILL
The victim if revived should not get a DEATH

It seems silly in essence....... but it reminds me of being defibrillator on the battlefield, your same body is essentially alive again... if that makes any sense..

The votes are very close and .. I'm surprised that it wasn't more one way.

[noxious]

Did your health drop to zero? You died.

If it walks like a duck...

[Otleaz]

Your K/D(R) ratio should be the biggest thing on the stat screen, with your K/D ratio being either non existent or in very small text next to it.


Stat whores need to realize that as soon as they die, getting revived will not make their stats look any better. If they do, medics will get bitched at constantly and create unneeded conflict in what should be a social game.

[Grognard]

What do you think? Should being revived not count as a death?

@Eyeklops... props dude, I know this isnt a troll post, but you've earned some serious troll points w/out even trying... :rofl:

@TheRestOfTheCrowd... the reason you guys are having such a bitchfest... is because you are arguing from the wrong premise; "are ya dead"? The real question is... "what is the effect of a revive"?

After you get to that point, a simple google definition of the word revive reveals:
1. Restore to life or consciousness: "both men collapsed, but were revived".
2. Regain life, consciousness, or strength.

This neutral party definition itself, reflects back to the state that you can be in: "Regain life" (you are dead), or, "consciousness" (you are not dead), "strength" does not apply...

So, what can we glean from a corrected premise, a neutral party definition, and a little contextual logic? That, from the standpoint of a "revive", arguing "death", or, "no death", means that every swinging dick in here is correct... and you will argue forever! Keep in mind, the incapacitee, and the incapacitor can be the same guy (or a cactus...)... and can still be acted upon by the reviving party.

Therefore... :doh: "Irrespective of the catalyst, and with respect to the victim(?), how do we track the effect of a revive, statistically?" :doh:... is the only question left to be answered.

So, in my opinion, addressing only the above question, the best arguement I have heard yet, is from the folks concerned that there will be people just sitting at the respawn screen, refusing to do anything, until a medic revives them. This is a very strong argument, because it is counter-productive to the faction, the squad, and teamwork in general, not to mention the sanity of a medic doing his best... However, contrary to that, I have to ask myself, is it practical to expect the developers to get rid of the K/D ratio? I keep comming up with... "they wont". So, what is practical, given that some kind of kill ratio will be in existence... In my opinion, a K/D/R, coupled with pressure from the community that "revive screen lurking" is poor form, and will eventually, mark you a pariah, is the best solution.

Therefore:
Kill = I killed / incapacitated / destroyed - an enemy(s).
Death = I got killed / incapacitated / destroyed by something (even myself...) - and self-respawned.
Revive = I was down somehow, and revived - by a medic.

[Memeotis]

I voted no. How about having both a death count and an incapacitated count? That way, every time you go down you add to your incapacitated count (unless you are killed by an explosion - then you only get a death count), and only if you are finished off by an enemy player, blown up, or choose to respawn will your death count increase.

I think that doing it this way could actually have some merit. The K/Dr obsessed people will instead focus on K/Incapacitated ratio to prove to themselves they're amazing or what ever, whilst recruiters can look at the difference between deaths and incapacitations to determine whether this guy plays with teams (because there's medics around when he plays).

There should of course be a bleed-out timer, so that players can't wait indefinitely for a medic.

[NewSith]

I usually play medics. One thing I can do without is all the whining and begging for revives. If I choose to give you a revive you should be thankful. You still died. It was your fault. I am not going to rush out into the open to revive you so that you can keep your pristine K/D ratio. I will do it so that you can keep trying to crack that objective.

Let players opt out of being revived. Keep the death on their stats. I prefer to practice preventive medicine. Keeping all deaths recorded means people care more about their lives, and keeps the whining down.

Excuse me but that means you suck as a medic. Running and gunning while in medic skin doesn't count.

I play medics and, hell, I'm able. Definitely able to revive all who want to be revived.

Also for those who think death means death... - have anyone of you heard of clinical death? Where you die actually, but you can be saved, that's exactly what revives stand for and exactly why the revival tool in Battlefield is shock paddles (defibs)

[Otleaz]

A few people here think we are talking about the definition of death for some reason. That is so irrelevant it isn't even funny.

What needs to be considered is how players will act depending on how you implement this. If you do it improperly, you will have stat whores bringing the entire group down by sitting there dead, bitching about not getting revived.

For that to happen, getting killed after getting revived needs to look just as bad on your stat card as a regular death. I think that is the most important thing here.

[ENDO]

If revieves will count as deaths, I never want to be in a situation like this.

HERE

[Otleaz]

You can say no to being revived.

[Stardouser]

A few people here think we are talking about the definition of death for some reason. That is so irrelevant it isn't even funny.

What needs to be considered is how players will act depending on how you implement this. If you do it improperly, you will have stat whores bringing the entire group down by sitting there dead, bitching about not getting revived.

For that to happen, getting killed after getting revived needs to look just as bad on your stat card as a regular death. I think that is the most important thing here.

It's being considered from multiple angles. First, revived means no longer dead, so the literal definition is covered.

And since that's irrelevant as you say, secondly, a lot of you are doing this to blindly attack KDR players. KDR players are coming. You can't stop it and you shouldn't try, they are needed to fund the game. They will camp even more carefully to avoid dying in the first place, thus obviating the need for them to run with medics, and they will reject revives to avoid the possibility of being shot dead again and sustaining additional deaths beyond their control.

You are arguing for something that will make medics and teamplay even less desirable to KDR players. I've seen this before. Battlefield 2 returned the death, and then Bad Company 2 did not. It affected the way people played. And since revives could not be rejected, it even inspired the name of a BC2 kill montage group- Don't Revive Me Bro. That is not a joke.

Thirdly, the additional deaths and kills from a reviving situation is really the fault of the medic for Rambo Reviving, not the dead player's fault and certainly not the skill of the player getting the additional kills.

[Kilmoran]

It should count as a kill for the opponent, but it should not count as a death simply because of the unlikeliness of it happening all that often, and the fact that a medic doing the secondary part of their primary job shouldn't be at odds with what everyone else wants for their own record.


Edit: Hmm actually... i don't want kill streaks to be... abused either.

[Grognard]

Therefore:
Kill = I killed / incapacitated / destroyed - an enemy(s).
Death = I got killed / incapacitated / destroyed by something (even myself...) - and self-respawned.
Revive = I was down somehow, and revived - by a medic.

...as an addendum, I remembered, this morning, that in the E3 footage they were tracking "Assists", and "Vehicle destruction"...

If so, and to be more thorough, we would then have:

Kill = I killed / incapacitated / destroyed - an enemy(s).
Death = I got killed / incapacitated / destroyed by something (even myself...) - and self-respawned.
Assist = I helped to kill / incapacitate / destroy - an enemy(s).
Vehicle = I destroyed a vehicle - without a driver / pilot / occupant.
Revive = I was down somehow, and revived - by a medic.

Thusly, we would have a composite KDAVR (pronounced "cadaver").

Edit: For clarification, a "D" is transmuted to an "R" upon acceptance of a revive. There is no "double-hit" in the above system. Also, there is no revocation for a "K", in either event.

[Vanir]

If someone kills you and then you get revived, should that persons kill count be revoked? No. Because he shot you and you died.

[CutterJohn]

If you turn off the K/D meter, it becomes a moot question.

[Stardouser]

...as an addendum, I remembered, this morning, that in the E3 footage they were tracking "Assists", and "Vehicle destruction"...

If so, and to be more thorough, we would then have:

Kill = I killed / incapacitated / destroyed - an enemy(s).
Death = I got killed / incapacitated / destroyed by something (even myself...) - and self-respawned.
Assist = I helped to kill / incapacitate / destroy - an enemy(s).
Vehicle = I destroyed a vehicle - without a driver / pilot / occupant.
Revive = I was down somehow, and revived - by a medic.

Thusly, we would have a composite KDAVR (pronounced "cadaver").

Exactly. Death means you respawned. But under your list you count kills as both incapacitates and literal kills.

The answer is to make it so that the game does not grant an addition to your stats until one of the following occurs:
1. If the player you "killed" gets revived, a "takedown" or whatever you wish to call it, is granted to your stats.
2. If he respawns, you get a kill.

This system would also avoid the argument of "well, if the death is returned so should the kill be returned", because a kill would not even be granted until a kill actually takes place.

[Grognard]

Exactly. Death means you respawned. But under your list you count kills as both incapacitates and literal kills.

The answer is to make it so that the game does not grant an addition to your stats until one of the following occurs:
1. If the player you "killed" gets revived, a "takedown" or whatever you wish to call it, is granted to your stats.
2. If he respawns, you get a kill.

This system would also avoid the argument of "well, if the death is returned so should the kill be returned", because a kill would not even be granted until a kill actually takes place.

You'll need to read my full preceeding post to see why those are listed the way they are. I will not get into the definition of a "death". That arguement will last forever, for the reasons I previously stated. To me, they are one and the same, for all practical purposes.

[Stardouser]

You'll need to read my full preceeding post to see why those are listed the way they are. I will not get into the definition of a "death". That arguement will last forever, for the reasons I previously stated. To me, they are one and the same, for all practical purposes.

You seem to be implying that there are kill stats on the one hand, and death stats and revives on the other. If that is not your intent, then you must clarify.



1 Therefore... "Irrespective of the catalyst, and with respect to the victim(?), how do we track the effect of a revive, statistically?" ... is the only question left to be answered.

2 So, in my opinion, addressing only the above question, the best arguement I have heard yet, is from the folks concerned that there will be people just sitting at the respawn screen, refusing to do anything, until a medic revives them. This is a very strong argument, because it is counter-productive to the faction, the squad, and teamwork in general, not to mention the sanity of a medic doing his best... However, contrary to that, I have to ask myself, is it practical to expect the developers to get rid of the K/D ratio? I keep comming up with... "they wont". So, what is practical, given that some kind of kill ratio will be in existence... In my opinion, a K/D/R, coupled with pressure from the community that "revive screen lurking" is poor form, and will eventually, mark you a pariah, is the best solution.


1. As to the issue of tracking the effects of revives, deaths must either be returned when revived, or even better, split into deaths when you don't get revived, and revives(previously referred to as "taken down") when you do get revived.
2. The actual problem is the reverse. KDR centric players will reject revives that are offered to them because they might get immediately killed again and have yet another death added to their timer, and instead choose to spend the entire respawn timer dead, and then respawn and spend a lot of time running back. This will hurt the team as people spend more time on the respawn screen and running back than was necessary, causing offensives to fail, and defensive battles to be overrun.

Example: If the respawn timer is 20 seconds, and a revive is offered before that, the KDR player will reject it since he does not know if he will be killed immediately upon accepting it. Therefore, he will undergo the entire respawn timer plus walkback even though he could have been revived.

Planetside is a bit different from BF at least, in that you can remain on your death screen beyond the expiration of respawn timer. In BF3 I have observed that KDR players will reject revives and respawn. Maybe there should be a maximum revive timer? ie, you can't wait longer than 15 seconds beyond the expiration of your respawn timer?

[Grognard]

You seem to be implying that there are kill stats on the one hand, and death stats and revives on the other. If that is not your intent, then you must clarify.

This first listing, is I "killed" another.
The second listing, is I was "killed" by another.
The third, I assisted.
The fourth, I destroyed.
The fifth, I was revived by a medic.
...and so on.

If one makes a "kill"/"incapacitate" it tracks +1 K.
If one self-respawns it tracks +1 D.
If one assists in a kill it tracks +1 A.
If one destroys an empty vehicle it tracks +1 V.
If one accepts a revive it tracks +1 R.

[Stardouser]

This first listing, is I "killed" another.
The second listing, is I was "killed" by another.
The third, I assisted.
The fourth, I destroyed.
The fifth, I was revived by a medic.
...and so on.

If one makes a "kill"/"incapacitate" it tracks +1 K.
If one self-respawns it tracks +1 D.
If one assists in a kill it tracks +1 A.
If one destroys an empty vehicle it tracks +1 V.
If one accepts a revive it tracks +1 R.

Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting we should have. If you self-respawn it tracks +1D and if you are revived it tracks +1R?

What other people want is that if you accept a revive, it will track both +1D and +1R.

[Grognard]

1. As to the issue of tracking the effects of revives, deaths must either be returned when revived, or even better, split into deaths when you don't get revived, and revives(previously referred to as "taken down") when you do get revived.


That is exactly how I tracked them for the revivee, not the catalyst. No "K"s are reversed for a revive... That again..., brings up the question "are you dead or not?" and, as I said, I will not argue about that.

However, for the revivee, a "D", can be transmuted to an "R", upon an accepted revival by a medic. The seperate tracking is for the "victim" only. This can be an indicator of good teamwork... if you see 10 guys with K100 D10 A25 V25 R75, it will indicate better teamwork than K100 D75 A25 V25 R0..., or the lack of medics. If I saw that D0 with an R75... I'd be thinking "there is a badass medic somewhere around here..."

[Grognard]

Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting we should have. If you self-respawn it tracks +1D and if you are revived it tracks +1R?

What other people want is that if you accept a revive, it will track both +1D and +1R.

Seems like we are on precisely the same page.

No "D" should tracked for the victim upon acceptance of a revive from a medic, it simply transmutes to an "R". However, the "K" for the "killer" (incapacitator, w/e) is not revoked, he did his job, no further seperation necessary...

Tracking a double hit for a revive... preposterous. That is the acme of pointlessness. A drunk monkey would understand that a "D" and an "R" both had a catalyst of some kind. All that would do is punish medics, and the revive contruct.

[ArbitraryDemise]

Yes, being revived should still count as a death.

After all, you had to die in order to get revived.

I also look at it this way: a death signifies a failure to overcome your opponents.
It does not matter that you were revived, you still failed to overcome your opponents. All a revive does is get you back up, and shooting sooner rather than later.

[Grognard]

^^^

When they outsource all statistics, you can bet that at some point someone will come up with a performance index. Someone who isn't as mathematically lazy as we are will take up the challenge and build a performance leaderboard, where all these factors weigh in. Deaths, deaths followed by revives, kills, accuracies, support activities, average XP per hour, all of that. There are going to be multiple leaderboards using various equations for rating players.

Feed all stats real time and let the app coders sort it out.

Agreed. Personally, if I could have my own selfish way... there would not be any K/D tracking, at least not in-game. To me it is just not as important as a lot of purple on the map. However, lots of people seem to like it, and I want big populations, so I am willing to try to chip-in ideas for a reasonable implementation, even if I personally dont care for it.

So, I think the "KDAVR" tracking would be good, for a cursory glance in-game, to see "whos who in the zoo"...

[Eyeklops]

Dead is dead, how the fuck can this even be a topic? Anyone who thinks ya cant count a death as a death is certainly swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool. But hey even tards are welcome in a free mmo/fps.

This thread is retarded

what the fuck games have you guys been playing that a death shouldn't count as a death? Seriously, i don't fucking get it. It's a shooter, kill people, die, respawn, kill people. Revive is for tactical use not killstreaks. Holy fuck.
The developers of BF3, who probably know allot more about game development than you, thought is was a topic. With much support of the Battlefield community to boot.


@Eyeklops... props dude, I know this isnt a troll post, but you've earned some serious troll points w/out even trying... :rofl:


Thank you, working hard on it :) Don't forget to Thank my OP!!

there will be people just sitting at the respawn screen, refusing to do anything, until a medic revives them.

What about the people who tap out and respawn away from the battle when they could have been revived to help keep pushing? To me the counter argument is just as strong, so I don't really see either as a major consideration.

[Johari]

Being revived count as a death? You get a death count as soon as your health hits zero. Get revived and die a second later? 2nd death.

[Eyeklops]

Being revived count as a death? You get a death count as soon as your health hits zero. Get revived and die a second later? 2nd death.

But were you really dead, or just hurt so bad you couldn't stand or wield a weapon?

[sylphaen]

NO: deaths should be counted on respawns.

[FightingFirst]

Once you hit zero health you become incapacitated not dead. You only die once you hit re-spawn. So in my opinion a revive should not count as a death. To combat people just waiting around to be revived there should be a count down which when it runs out re spawns you automatically.
FF

[Craftyatom]

I think in a game where team KD counts, the death should be removed, because your team made the effort to revive you. For the purpose of individual KD however, you still died, and it was your fault (probably). So that should show up as a death. It's your medic friend who's doing the reviving, not you, you're the one that f'ed up.

So I think revives should remove deaths from squad or outfit totals if it's member-on-member rezzing action, but for a personal score it should still count as a death.

[AzK]

It shouldn't, so people won't feel as bad for dying when they charge in first because then they get revived and their "precious" stats aren't ruined.

If it were up to me i wouldn't have had a deaths counter at all. I don't think people are particularly eager to see how much they die.

On this note btw i wonder if there's going to be an option to make profiles "private" so only friends or whatver or no one can see them, or decide what is going to be showed or not.

[Xyntech]

It shouldn't, so people won't feel as bad for dying when they charge in first because then they get revived and their "precious" stats aren't ruined.

If it were up to me i wouldn't have had a deaths counter at all. I don't think people are particularly eager to see how much they die.

On this note btw i wonder if there's going to be an option to make profiles "private" so only friends or whatver or no one can see them, or decide what is going to be showed or not.

Given the amount of stats that they are tracking, it only makes sense to include deaths in there as well, although I hope it isn't front and center on official major stat screens.

I do hope that they make it able to be set to private. I don't really care who sees how shitty I've done, but I think it should be an option for other players. I'm a fan of the idea of having multiple toggles, where you can decide whether or not your stats can be seen by everyone, your outfit mates, your friends list, etc.

Obviously people who are concerned about their number of deaths are ass hats in the first place, so I certainly don't want to help and appease them just for the hell of it, but if death count forgiveness upon revive can encourage them to be 2% better players, I'll take that improvement and count my blessings. I just can't see it making them play any worse, and in fact quite the opposite.

There are just way more situations where waiting around for a revive is better than tapping out.

K/D ratio obsessed guy waiting around for a revive > K/D ratio obsessed guy waiting around for a safe kill

At least the one waiting for the revive is in the thick of the action.

[Electrofreak]

I'm not going to read through 13 pages and likely this has been pointed out, but this thread is titled "Should being revived count as a death?" while your post asked

...Should being revived not count as a death?

So it's pretty confusing which question we're actually supposed to answer with the poll.

[Xyntech]

I'm not going to read through 13 pages and likely this has been pointed out, but this thread is titled "Should being revived count as a death?" while your post asked



So it's pretty confusing which question we're actually supposed to answer with the poll.

I noticed quite a few posts where that point seemed to be confused. I doubt the poll would be much less even if the question had been more clear, but it may have favored the other side slightly. Either way, it's pretty close, but I can't see any good argument not to let revivals erase a death count.

[Eyeklops]

ha... exactly 50/50 now.

[Baneblade]

I try to rez when I can in PS1, but most people don't see the point in waiting for it. If it canceled the kill, then adv medics would be less of a waste in unorganized battles.

[PhoenixDog]

Very odd question

Maybe they should have a revive /death counter? as medic , you revive someone , if they die again, you get a negative ratio. Would this stop you reviving people you know would only die and give you a bad rep as a medic?

See how it works both ways ?

Swiss cheese has fewer holes than this. Everyone is going to die a lot in this game..over and over and over again.

[Karrade]

For anyone who cares about individual stats (Which is not me, but I digress)

No:

Positives - People may rush or push more when its needed.
Negatives - People may be more prone to AOE, dying, suiciding etc.

Reverse them for Yes.

[Cynge]

What if it worked something like this:

1) When a player reaches 0 life they are disabled, and the person who caused the damage is credited with a kill
2) There is a period in which that player can be revived (say 30-60 seconds, but could be adjusted) and being revived does not give that player a death (but rather a revive)
3) If the player is dead for too long or they were dealt significant damage (say tank shell, explosion, etc) they cannot be revived and must respawn....and therefore get a death
4) (Optionally) If you are killed within so many seconds of a revive you do not get a death

This would help keep the KDR people from waiting around endlessly for a revive, which seems to be a concern. But it also encourages that risk taking that a KDR might otherwise not take. It also would encourage people to take revives (assuming they are optional) if you use the optional #4

Also, one can explain from a "lore" standpoint why the attacker would get a kill and the revived person not a death. The attacker sees that he took down an opponent and thinks "Got another one" and puts another notch on his belt...he doesn't necessarily know that person got revived or wasn't killed.

[Eyeklops]

Bump. Something for new PSU/PS2 people to argue/ponder while waiting for the servers to come online.

[Rothnang]

If it counts as a kill it counts as a death.

If it doesn't count as a death it doesn't count as a kill.

[Helwyr]

If being revived results in no death/kill count, I want headshots to result in a player being unreviviable and forced to respawn. Likewise a means of forcing respawns on "incapacitated" players like Darkfall had.

Frankly those saying No to this are likely all from organized Outfit squads looking for a way to boost their K/D stats vs solo and casual players. You'd think being in an organized group would be enough of an advantage in itself, but some within this crowd always seem to be looking for game mechanics to artificially stack the deck heavily in their favor as well.

PS the Poll is also confusing and that confusion favors people voting No. Some people might read it as being revived counts as an additional death.

[Rothnang]

That would cripple squad play even more in favor of AMS zerging.

[SKYeXile]

if you die, you die, your stats should reflect that, we shouldn't be rewarding people for been babied by a medic.

[Rothnang]

I look at a medic as the most mobile form of respawn, not a death undoer.

[Figment]

Statistics are irrelevant.

There is only winning or losing the territory. If I kill someone 20 times and they kill me 20 times, or I kill 1 time and someone kills me 20 times, yet in the end they lose the facility because of my other actions, who won the battles and who won the war? Maybe I was just stalling for time or drawing attention so a buddy of mine could make a move knowing I could be revived? Maybe I was cloaking and got caught until I reached my objective and killed it? Maybe I suicided a lot? Maybe I got driven over by friendlies who wern't minding the road? Who knows? Who cares?


K/D is such an utterly uninteresting aspect of the game I'd rather see the entire stat removed as it just leads to statpadding behaviour rather than the type of gameplay that makes an epic tactical maneuvre get pulled off.

[Ritual]

Deaths should always count as deaths.

Having a revive remove a death just puts a huge need on your shoulders to have medics with you at all times. The only advantage medics should have, is getting you back into the battle faster.

If I kill you and get a kill for it, you should get a death too.

I would support removing the K/D ratio from statistics though, because the goal of the game is to capture territory not get the most kills. If people become hesitant to put themselves out there to take a point, its going to hurt the game. I can farm kills all day and do absolutely nothing for my empire while im doing it. So whats the point other then fun?

Capture points taken and defense experience earned should be the only stat that measures your rank.

[Fear The Amish]

GAH! necccrrroooo thread.. but im only cool with it not counting as a kill if i can finish them of like in war of the roses.....

[brinkdadrink]

This first listing, is I "killed" another.
The second listing, is I was "killed" by another.
The third, I assisted.
The fourth, I destroyed.
The fifth, I was revived by a medic.
...and so on.

If one makes a "kill"/"incapacitate" it tracks +1 K.
If one self-respawns it tracks +1 D.
If one assists in a kill it tracks +1 A.
If one destroys an empty vehicle it tracks +1 V.
If one accepts a revive it tracks +1 R.

Seems like we are on precisely the same page.

No "D" should tracked for the victim upon acceptance of a revive from a medic, it simply transmutes to an "R". However, the "K" for the "killer" (incapacitator, w/e) is not revoked, he did his job, no further seperation necessary...

Best answer I have read on this subject. Why be limited to two simple numbers. If your a stat tracker then you should love this. Add up the numbers however you want to get you beloved K/D. (ex. K/(D+R) or (K+A)/D etc.) Or just enjoy all the information to make an informed opinion on them.

This is not a K/D game but I like to look at it occasionally for reference and I am one to say the more information the better.

[Drakkonan]

As long as that information can be hidden....oh wait.

[GLaDOS]

the revival tool in Battlefield is shock paddles (defibs)

Those always crack me up. "HE'S BEEN RUN OVER BY A TANK! GET THE PADDLES! WE CAN SAVE HIM!!!!"

[Erendil]

Yes, it should count. A death is a death, and the decision to respawn or wait for a Medic should not be influenced by whether or not it preserves some worthless stat like K/D.

The respawn mechanic is already pretty fast, and I'd hate to have numerous teammates lying all over the place as corpses for long periods of time waiting for a Medic that might or might not come around to revive them just so they can preserve their K/D, when they could've just respawned and in that timeframe actually helped my empire out in the current battle. If you want to wait for a Medic, IMO it should be because it is more beneficial from a tactical/logistical standpoint than respawning. Not to preserve some e-peen stat.

I'm all for giving incentives to people that facilitates the use of support abilities, but this is not the way to go about it.

[SKYeXile]

The only people that want this change though are people that roll around in a group with a boatload of medics where they can get constant revives and so then on paper they look better than what they actually are.

[Babyfark McGeez]

There is actually a pretty simple answer:
In this game you get a death-screen that clearly states that you died. A medic can bring you back from the dead.
It would be different if you would be "critically wounded" and a medic would "patch you up", but you die and get revived, therefore i voted yes, death is death, reviving irrelevant for that count.

[TheStigma]

I think it should NOT count as a death if you are revived.

Ultimately it doesn't matter THAT much in PS2 simply because there are no "ticket" systems in the game yet, and KDR in this game is very much divorced from how helpful you have actualyl been for your empire - so its not a metric that is terribly important.

That said I think it should not count revived deaths due to small details like preserving kill-streaks, and in case they ever put in any sort of ticket mechanics (like galaxies having limited respawn tickets loaded for its AMS system or something).

It also removes a lot of un-needed animosity towards medics. If deaths from revives count then medics are blamed every time they revive someone who doesn't manage to get back into cover. (some) players get mad because they percieve this as getting punished for someting they had no control over, and medics (despite best efforts and intentions) get a lot of flak in return for just genuinely trying to help people... Remove the death-count on revive and this solves all of those problems.

Finally you have to ask what is hte point of reviving when it counts as a death anyway? If there is a spawn close by then you could just respawn there with full ammo and helath and grenades ect. rather than coming back in a much riskier situation with half-used resources AND still a deathcount added to your tally regardless. The only point seems to be preventing a long travel-time back to where you were. I think we can afford to take away the deahtcount as an added carrot.

-Stigma

[TheStigma]

The only people that want this change though are people that roll around in a group with a boatload of medics where they can get constant revives and so then on paper they look better than what they actually are.

Over-generalization alarm!...

-Stigma

[SKYeXile]

Over-generalization alarm!...

-Stigma

its all about the stats man.

[TheStigma]

its all about the stats man.

I can think about at least ONE reason that matters to everyone and doesn't have anything to do directly with stats - killstreak bonuses (as trivial as they are currently). As far as I remember they reset both on revival and on redeploy currently - neither of which are really deaths that should be "punished".

I just think its a good thing to have a little more incentive to reviving people than it being purely about saving them the walk back form the closest S-AMS, because in that case there literally isn't any point in reviving in many cases.

Besides - KDR whores will all be flying ESFs anyway so they don't give a shit about revivals right? ;)

-Stigma

[SKYeXile]

I can think about at least ONE reason that matters to everyone and doesn't have anything to do directly with stats - killstreak bonuses (as trivial as they are currently). As far as I remember they reset both on revival and on redeploy currently - neither of which are really deaths that should be "punished".

I just think its a good thing to have a little more incentive to reviving people than it being purely about saving them the walk back form the closest S-AMS, because in that case there literally isn't any point in reviving in many cases.

Besides - KDR whores will all be flying ESFs anyway so they don't give a shit about revivals right? ;)

-Stigma

This part is wrong, obviously if you were revived, you had died and your stats and killstreak should reflect that failure.

I cant tell the vehicle whores from the infantry apart, i expect statistical k/ds of 10/1 from vehicle whores if i do 5/1 as infantry.

[TheStigma]

This part is wrong, obviously if you were revived, you had died and your stats and killstreak should reflect that failure.

I cant tell the vehicle whores from the infantry apart, i expect statistical k/ds of 10/1 from vehicle whores if i do 5/1 as infantry.

Wait, how is that a failure? If I peek a corner to scout out the corridor full knowing that my medic buddy has my back if someone pops me - how is that any different to a Max peeking that same corner safe in knowing that his engineer buddy repairing him makes him practically invincible right then. Both are just examples of the classes using their skills appropriately.

Should similarly the KDR and killstreaks reflect when you would have ran out of health if it weren't for heals you received - or when you wouldn't have had more ammo to kill anyone with if it weren't for the ammo you were given?

It also just seems a bit weird to say that you "died" 4 times during that battle yet were able to walk away from it in good cheer afterwards. In more realistic terms the "dead" state we see in game has to be some kind of critically-wounded state - unless all medics are pulling the old Lazarus-trick on each revive.

Anywho - I don't feel like getting into a big heated debate on this so that's probably my last post. Its not worth getting worked up over.

-Stigma

[JesNC]

Where's the "Who gives about KDR anyway?" option?


IMO Score/hour > KDR. KDR only shows how good you are at farming kills from relative safety.

[Memeotis]

No! Making it count as a death will give casual players -- i.e. COD/BF3 players who care about their KDR -- even less of an incentive to work as a team. However, making revives NOT count as a death will encourage them to stick closer to medics and their squad, as it will less likely damage their precious KDR if they go down. By showing these players the statistical benefits of playing as a team, they'll feel less inclined to go lone wolf.

In Bad Company 2, revives counted as a death and squad play was hampered as a result. Far fewer revives, and sometimes, you actually got abused by players for reviving them because it not only counted as a death, but put them back in the line of fire -- a situation they consider to be worse than respawning back at base.

I don't want to see teamwork similarly punished in PS2. So in short, DO NOT make revives count as deaths.

Agreed.

Along with this they should add an additional statistic called 'incapacitated', 'take-downs' (or whatever), which counts every time you have been brought down. This would effectively replace the conventional death-counter, by showing how many times you've been brought down to 0 HP. The benefit of this is that you would be able to compare a persons incapacitated-counter with the death-counter in the form of a ratio:

Incapacitations
Deaths

From this ration you would be able to tell whether this player stays near medics, and it would give an indication as to whether he is a team player or not. The higher the numerator, the more this person stays near medics.

For dummies:

Team-player:

100 Incapacitations
10 Deaths

Lone-wolf:

100 Incapacitations
95 Deaths

[Grognard]

LOL Eyeklops... given the subject of this thread, the day it was started, its current state, and the individual who "revived" it... the irony is not lost on me :rofl:

[TheStigma]

Agreed.

Along with this they should add an additional statistic called 'incapacitated', 'take-downs' (or whatever), which counts every time you have been brought down. This would effectively replace the conventional death-counter, by showing how many times you've been brought down to 0 HP. The benefit of this is that you would be able to compare a persons incapacitated-counter with the death-counter in the form of a ratio:

Incapacitations
Deaths

From this ration you would be able to tell whether this player stays near medics, and it would give an indication as to whether he is a team player or not. The higher the numerator, the more this person stays near medics.

For dummies:

Team-player:

100 Incapacitations
10 Deaths

Lone-wolf:

100 Incapacitations
95 Deaths

Agreed. the best way to handle it overall is to have a seperate stat for it. it just gives more granularity to the stats which is always a good thing regardless if you are the type that cares about your stats "being good" or not.

-Stigma