Jimmy Whisenhunt Joins PlanetSide 2 Team

[zomg]

My point was that I can't think of another reason TO hire him. What the hell else is this guy about, lol?

I'm just saying that this guy literally lives and breathes a scene and FPS ideology that doesn't mesh well at all with whats been shown of PS2, and I think kind of sends a mixed message as to PS2 gameplay goals.

Kind of feels like a PR move to appease all of the old-school kids and make them not be so whiny and doomsayer about this game's look and feel, and give them peace of mind.

I'm obv not saying they're trying to make PS2 into an e-sport, because that sounds stupid, and it never could/would happen. My point is, with that said, I can't see a use for this guy.

This game is just NOT that serious, imo. lol. It's a F2P MMO. Fun, nothing more.

And for the record, Pro Quake/CS = Pro covered wagon racing. :P


As I have mentioned in the thread earlier (or at least tried to make a point of it) is that at least it seems to me, that the reason for hiring him was that he is good in finding the mechanics that make the game fun and rewarding, and the ability to work with those details to make them better.

At least this is essentially what I got out from the videos from him I saw. Sure, he was talking about CS, but the fact is that he was able to very precisely pinpoint the facts from the game and communicate them effectively while comparing them to another game to understand why the mechanics in the other game were better and how it could be changed to improve the current game.

I have played a lot of shooters and what he described regarding what's wrong in CS:GO and how it was better, and other things he mentioned, are pretty much spot on for most shooters of that style. I'm sure you can agree with that if you have played CS.

Assuming he can do similar observations about PS2, I'm sure it's all going to help the devs make the game better.

[Virulence]

Having tight gameplay with a high skillcap - good, precise movement, good weapon balance and feel, and environments that require great positioning and promote high situational awareness and communicative team play - will make the game better and not "dumbed down" at all. Planetside was dumbed down.

Furthermore, if the game is fun to play, feels good, and promotes skilled play in huge 200v200v200 battles as well as in small 5v5 battles, everybody wins. If he can help accomplish that, even just a little, awesome.

[whisenhunt]

Great a CS Kiddie deciding the design of PS2. ;_;

EDIT: Ok im starting to like him after reading his posts here...

EDIT2: Oh wait no he didn't even mention playing UT. Screw you quake / TFC lovers. UT:GOTY instagib for life! ;)

I remember going to buy UT:GOTY, had to beg my parents for weeks... LOL

UT was a ton of fun, Facing worlds > all.

[JimmyOmaha]

I remember going to buy UT:GOTY, had to beg my parents for weeks... LOL

UT was a ton of fun, Facing worlds > all.

Fell off, countless times. :D

[MaestroTV]

I remember going to buy UT:GOTY, had to beg my parents for weeks... LOL

UT was a ton of fun, Facing worlds > all.

LOL yes, I have flashbacks to Facing Worlds everytime I see a bridge map, good times

[whisenhunt]

Did you read through the rest of the posts before replying to me?

It's mostly been "Counterstrike this, competitive that, twitch this, ADS that". My point is just that this guys persepective is a very dated one.

Also, my post was merely to point out that this guy doesn't seem qualified for anything other than counterstrike-related endeavors.

People assume I've only played CS competitively and/or frequently :eek:

I've played just about every retail (and a ton of mods) FPS over the years pretty often during its time, my goal is not to change the game to something I see fit in relation to my CS expertise.

It's to take what I've learned from analyzing gun play, FPS meta-game and player needs in all of the games I've either casted, played for fun, competed in and help translate that in a way that is unique to the new experience.

I chose to do the CS:GO and CS 1.6 stuff because that community had no one left to speak out against the industry standard FPS model, if it was any other game I played and loved that had the issue, you would see videos related to that game :)

In regards to the players asking if I have played PS1: I dabbled in it with some friends years ago and was instantly in love with the experience, I'm excited to get back into it to make sure I still get it.

In regards to the players asking where my allegiance lies: Glory to the Republic!

Lastly, I'll do an AMA later this week on here :D

Back to work for me!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/562237_10150861979361176_1496310122_n.jpg

<3

[Magician]

I couldn't agree with your large capital letters any more, I may even make them a bit bigger... and red even!
I approve of this message... Yes I was skeptical when they said they were bringing on a new FPS guru... but after reading this message I feel much better. Death to Dumbing Down! :mad:

[Bags]

Hooray for AMA here :D

[GuyFawkes]

This game is just NOT that serious, imo. lol. It's a F2P MMO. Fun, nothing more.

And for the record, Pro Quake/CS = Pro covered wagon racing. :P

The developers are attempting to make an eternal war never ending within an mmofps framework. Persistant and interesting gameplay. They are looking to get the fps side of things a best they can from the start.

They are looking at making it a game you play, and fans keep coming back to.

There will be the next incarnation of cod/ bf / wow xpac and so on, that keeps people interested for a few milliseconds as the developers regurgitate out the same reincarnated stuff with slight tweaks. They are just fotm games and always will because of the business model.

You may not play cs , but the fact it is still going so long after its initial release gives some relevance within the goals of the existing ps2 team. Ps1 is their other reference for longevity.

Name any fps game thats come out within the last few years that within a couple of months hasn't been forgotten about. Most cod games appear to have a lifespan of a week if they are lucky. It took about a fortnight before bf3 comments on people I follow on twitter dried up totally.

If you asked someone in ps about their game , they will tell you about some meaningless bridge battle that they were in that lasted all day and night 4 yrs ago, and will never forget it. Or a myriad of almost anything. You can't quantify how such memories last and yearn for a new similar experience.

Similar ideals must be what keeps a person competetively playing for 13 yrs on the same game. He plays allsorts of others.

The big problem with most modern games is that kids are so used to being shovelled shallow crap over and over each year with the next version that they have no reference as to what is good or not.

[zomg]

People assume I've only played CS competitively and/or frequently :eek:

I've played just about every retail (and a ton of mods) FPS over the years pretty often during its time, my goal is not to change the game to something I see fit in relation to my CS expertise.

It's to take what I've learned from analyzing gun play, FPS meta-game and player needs in all of the games I've either casted, played for fun, competed in and help translate that in a way that is unique to the new experience.

I chose to do the CS:GO and CS 1.6 stuff because that community had no one left to speak out against the industry standard FPS model, if it was any other game I played and loved that had the issue, you would see videos related to that game :)

In regards to the players asking if I have played PS1: I dabbled in it with some friends years ago and was instantly in love with the experience, I'm excited to get back into it to make sure I still get it.

In regards to the players asking where my allegiance lies: Glory to the Republic!

Lastly, I'll do an AMA later this week on here :D

Back to work for me!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/562237_10150861979361176_1496310122_n.jpg

<3

This post should be made "required reading" before you can reply to this thread. I'm just going to quote it here in full because of that ;)

[Graywolves]

The big problem with most modern games is that kids are so used to being shovelled shallow crap over and over each year with the next version that they have no reference as to what is good or not.

This. A lot of people don't realize how much has been dropped or dulled down over the past 5 years in FPS gaming.

[epicx]

I have a good feeling about him, after seeing the youtube videos.
It seems he could bring a whole different crowd to Planet Side2, it could be a good thing or bad thing. There will be a more competative crowd in PS2, that will fallow his lead. The only bad thing i think is going to happen is the original PS feeling is going to be left behind, i got that feeling when watching the E3 videos.

I hope you do well Jimmy GL on PS2... (don't ruin it or else) Just kidding but seriously this game is my last hope for true FPS games, I've given up on WoW about 4 years ago, COD since COD:UO expansion and BF after 2142, If PS2 fails along with everything else, probably won't see me on games again.

[OnexBigxHebrew]

The only response to what I said that I like was the 'guy' himself. Welcome to the community :D.

Didn't change how I feel, but at least you're a positive guy, and this place can always use more of those, lol. Good luck with your new job.

To everyone else, boy you sure hate modern games lol. Did you ever stop to think that a lot of these games (Call od Duty, etc) may be crap online, but offer a campaign that's movie-like and fun? Sorry to burst your bubble, kids, but I hate CoD online, but loved the campaign, because its fun and shallow, like an interactive action movie. Thats all it needs to be. Also, I think its a bit premature to say people have fogotten BF3, as that game is JAMMED with people, all day every day. Just because the MMOFPS demographic (lol :D) has, I don't think the thousands and thousands still playing have. Lets not mix up personal preference and longevity here. That game is huge. lol.

I'm just a hardcore 'e-sports' (ugh, still hate that term) player that thinks it's a joke to think of planetside of anything other than a grand, impressive, game of fun and 'WOW' moments. I don't care if the gunplay is super-solid, I just want a fun game to run around and blow shit up with thousands of people. I have arena games to get super cereal about. In the eyes of new people who won't care about the epic forum drama, I think the feral PS1 hardcore community is going to be deeply upset at the demographic that's going to flock to this game ;). This game's success will be riding on the backs of Nexon kids with credit cards, even without pay2win being a problem. The way this game makes money, guaranteed, is with zebra paint. lol. That's why I just can't take all this talk about gunplay seriously anymore. Lets all just have fun :D

Either way, I've said my peace :), sorry we couldn't agree guys :S haha. Just trying to play devil's advocate ;)

[Bags]

BF3's campaign is terrible. I guess their campaigns are micheal bay movie like, sure.

[Toppopia]

BF3's campaign is terrible. I guess their campaigns are micheal bay movie like, sure.

What? I liked the parachuting scene, and i liked the mission where you fight basically the whole russian army, but mostly the end when you get attacked by the fighter, funny hearing your teammates reaction.

So the best parts was parachuting, and being chased by a plane. The rest was still good, but they were the highlights.

[Toppopia]

I liked the scene where the enemies didn't stop spawning until I took 2 steps forward.

I liked the scene where i run up to a wall, the enemies are there, but i must have been outside of their scripted 'shoot this thing' area, because they just ran past me while i shot them all. I have to say that mission was the most oddly scripted, some enemies didn't die till you moved to a specific place, then they die.

[OnexBigxHebrew]

BF3's campaign is terrible. I guess their campaigns are micheal bay movie like, sure.

I agree. Actually never said BF3 had a good campaign. I said CoD did.

Regardless, this community is going to implode when the nexon kids show up. I wouldn't be so worried about the 'console fps crowd', if I was everyone here, because they'll be the least of everyone's worries when angry 9 year olds with premium status show up haha.

Anyway, enough of all this, go back to welcoming Mr. Whistlehunt, everyone. lol. Grats again, Jimmy!

[GuyFawkes]

Regardless, this community is going to implode when the nexon kids show up. lol.

You make a really, really good point there:(

Soe will be filling the marketplace with pink unicorn mounts and cowboy outfits and laughing all the way to the bank. RNG boxes of surprise here we come.

[erunion]

Whats this, a hatefest on PSU? Who could have guessed?

Welcome to the forum, Jimmy. Don't let the whiners get to you.

[super pretendo]

You make a really, really good point there:(

Soe will be filling the marketplace with pink unicorn mounts and cowboy outfits and laughing all the way to the bank. RNG boxes of surprise here we come.

I think there's already a reddit decal you can get for vehicles. Just wait until they try to tap the my little pony demographic.

[Brusi]

I love PS2 and the dev team...but...

Seriously? You are going to bring in competitive CS players? Counter Strike plays NOTHING like Planetside 1 or 2. You at least could of brought in the top tier Battlefield players or something.

Or, you know, hire on some well known PS community members...

I rarely complain, this is a time I am doing so.

bitch, bitch, bitch... All you ever do.

I have no idea who the dude is, but my first thought was "i hope he is a professional CS player!".

Feel free to quote me when the PS2 community is ruined by dickheads, but for now, my opinion is that the more widespread and mainstream Planetside2 is, the better. Doesn't get more widespread than CS.


I've seen kids playing CS in third world countries!

[Bags]

I think there's already a reddit decal you can get for vehicles. Just wait until they try to tap the my little pony demographic.

I don't think money from like 200 people is worth pissing off the rest of the playerbase. Hell, I'd be pissed off if they did that.

[Naz The Eternal]

Guys he's not here to change PlanetSide 2 into CS, or make an eSport, he's here to help us make our weapons FEEL awesome, balanced and competitive. Having a competitive FPS player on the team is going to help us out a lot.

QFT. :)


What the hell are they whining about?

Can you summarize cracker? Is bottom line they dnot' like him because he is competitive FPS player?

I love him already. We come from CAL and TWL. One thing I have learned about this community it is mostly full of people who are not that good of an FPS player. They can't compete on the CAL and TWL stage so they go to an FPS game that relies more on team work and massive organization. So what the fuck are these people going to do when the great FPS players come over here and get organized?

I have to agree with JP's statement above, players like him have had way more experience than anybody in the FPS community. As Higby said he is not here to convert PS2 into CS, but rather help the dev team in making balance decisions.

[GuyFawkes]

I don't think money from like 200 people is worth pissing off the rest of the playerbase. Hell, I'd be pissed off if they did that.

but what if it turns out to be 500 original ps1 players and 995500 from elsewhere :groovy: who is the playerbase then lol :lol::rofl:

[GreatMazinkaise]

I for one welcome the new competitive FPS master...

Originally Posted by super pretendo View Post
I think there's already a reddit decal you can get for vehicles. Just wait until they try to tap the my little pony demographic.
I don't think money from like 200 people is worth pissing off the rest of the playerbase. Hell, I'd be pissed off if they did that.

I am ok with this...

[Hmr85]

Welcome to the forums and the community JW :)

[jepaul]

QFT. :)

I have to agree with JP's statement above, players like him have had way more experience than anybody in the FPS community. As Higby said he is not here to convert PS2 into CS, but rather help the dev team in making balance decisions.

I got quoted....:)

So does that mean that because we come from a competitive background, and have members who have competed on the esports level and our original background was 8 years ago in BF2C, that we are going to be hated here?

I've played with, and against, some of the best FPS players PC gamers have ever seen. And at the end of the day 50 gamers who play competitively, and travel as a hobby, will beat the crap out of 50 gamers who view themselves as organized every single time. This isn't real life. The weapons and technology are equal. Just because someone might know the history of their faction doesn't mean shit. It comes down to who is the better shot and who reacts quicker. The graphic of this game and the FPS style of this game will bring in the hard core gamers and I can't wait. That is why I'm here. If you're looking for PS1 I suggest you re up your sub.

Match of The Week Highlights: Team Illicit vs. Team HOE(Toxin)

"This is the showdown a lot of us have been waiting for; the two Atlantic Division powers get ready to throw it down on Mashtuur City this week. HOE(Toxin) will be led by Chonan, Naz, Phoenix, Fatback, and Schoefield on the ground, a very solid crew"

"HOE(Toxin) has a huge advantage over Illicit here. First, HOE(Toxin) is extremely humble and rarely posts anything on the CAL forums regarding their status. Secondly, HOE(Toxin) should easily field an advantage in infantry and team work"

"Mashtuur awards teams who excell at infantry, squad hopping and general team work... and HOE(Toxin) has mastered it. As of late HOE(Toxin) has been said to be a trojan horse if you will - a sleeper champion of Open"

"Make no mistake about it, if HOE(Toxin) gets a presence in Illicit's main then they will do something most teams are not able to, and that is keep that presence there throughout the match"

"The infantry game will be pretty even, but HOE(Toxin) is just relentless at capping flags and seem to always keep a strong existence somewhere on any map"

"HOE(Toxin) has clearly played more noteworthy, experienced teams in the likes of nycff and The Mammies (who are off to a rough start here in CAL)"

"Other interesting results include HOE's obliteration of The Mammies"

So we can only hope that TWL, CAL, and CPL players come over here in droves. And I know that Toxin is headed this way.

[Raymac]

I gotta say, I'm a little embarrassed by the amount of panic that comes out of this community sometimes.

[ZaFo711]

In regards to the players asking where my allegiance lies: Glory to the Republic!


finally! some more TR love! to many VS and NC lovers on that dev team :P

[FINALCUT]

In regards to the players asking where my allegiance lies: Glory to the Republic!



<3
Bah, I did like you till I saw this crap. Oh well, It will be fun to shoot you. Will those L33T fps skillz help you survive a reaver flying up your ass ? :lol:
NC4LIFE

[Hamma]

I gotta say, I'm a little embarrassed by the amount of panic that comes out of this community sometimes.

You're telling me. :p

[Mastachief]

I remember going to buy UT:GOTY, had to beg my parents for weeks... LOL

UT was a ton of fun, Facing worlds > all.

Welcome to PSu it's nice to see a proper FPS player getting an input on the feel of the game and these stupid "modern Shooter" features.

[AwesumEndeavors]

Will the download for beta be available early so people can download it so they don't have to wait when the beta actually comes out?

[lolroflroflcake]

As long as there is none of the I saw you first so I insta-win bullcrap, gun play can change anyway it wants to in my opinion. You need to be able to turn around and kill someone with your (hopefully) superior aiming skills if they start shooting you first because you didn't see them for what ever reason, thats critically important especially in an open world game where people can be anywhere.

[Toppopia]

As long as there is none of the I saw you first so I insta-win bullcrap, gun play can change anyway it wants to in my opinion. You need to be able to turn around and kill someone with your (hopefully) superior aiming skills if they start shooting you first because you didn't see them for what ever reason, thats critically important especially in an open world game where people can be anywhere.

What we don;t want, is people sneaking up on someone and losing even though they pummeled the enemy with 30 bullets. There needs to be a good balance.

[Comet]

I'm sure they'll balance TTK and get it to the point where it's fair.

[jepaul]

As long as there is none of the I saw you first so I insta-win bullcrap, gun play can change anyway it wants to in my opinion. You need to be able to turn around and kill someone with your (hopefully) superior aiming skills if they start shooting you first because you didn't see them for what ever reason, thats critically important especially in an open world game where people can be anywhere.


So we probably need 360 degree vision.

[Madlaps]

I got quoted....:)

So does that mean that because we come from a competitive background, and have members who have competed on the esports level and our original background was 8 years ago in BF2C, that we are going to be hated here?

I've played with, and against, some of the best FPS players PC gamers have ever seen. And at the end of the day 50 gamers who play competitively, and travel as a hobby, will beat the crap out of 50 gamers who view themselves as organized every single time. This isn't real life. The weapons and technology are equal. Just because someone might know the history of their faction doesn't mean shit. It comes down to who is the better shot and who reacts quicker. The graphic of this game and the FPS style of this game will bring in the hard core gamers and I can't wait. That is why I'm here. If you're looking for PS1 I suggest you re up your sub.

Match of The Week Highlights: Team Illicit vs. Team HOE(Toxin)

"This is the showdown a lot of us have been waiting for; the two Atlantic Division powers get ready to throw it down on Mashtuur City this week. HOE(Toxin) will be led by Chonan, Naz, Phoenix, Fatback, and Schoefield on the ground, a very solid crew"

"HOE(Toxin) has a huge advantage over Illicit here. First, HOE(Toxin) is extremely humble and rarely posts anything on the CAL forums regarding their status. Secondly, HOE(Toxin) should easily field an advantage in infantry and team work"

"Mashtuur awards teams who excell at infantry, squad hopping and general team work... and HOE(Toxin) has mastered it. As of late HOE(Toxin) has been said to be a trojan horse if you will - a sleeper champion of Open"

"Make no mistake about it, if HOE(Toxin) gets a presence in Illicit's main then they will do something most teams are not able to, and that is keep that presence there throughout the match"

"The infantry game will be pretty even, but HOE(Toxin) is just relentless at capping flags and seem to always keep a strong existence somewhere on any map"

"HOE(Toxin) has clearly played more noteworthy, experienced teams in the likes of nycff and The Mammies (who are off to a rough start here in CAL)"

"Other interesting results include HOE's obliteration of The Mammies"

So we can only hope that TWL, CAL, and CPL players come over here in droves. And I know that Toxin is headed this way.

Lol.

"HOE(Toxin) has a huge advantage over Illicit here. First, HOE(Toxin) is extremely humble and rarely posts anything on the CAL forums regarding their status. Secondly, HOE(Toxin) should easily field an advantage in infantry and team work"

Lol.

[jepaul]

Lol.



Lol.

Damn, didn't think anyone would read all that crap.

Thank you though.

So you want to grab your top 50 and we will grab ours? I bet we will be able to carve out an area to meet.

[Sifer2]

Seems a tad strange to hire a Senior Game Designer this late into the development process. Maybe he will be taking over for someone else after the game ships.

Anyway if he comes from a Counterstrike background then I guess that is a point in the favor of us that don't wont to have to use Ironsights constantly. I'll actually be quite happy if he does make the games shooting more skill based since what I saw at E3 was not especially balanced or competitive looking.

[Malorn]

The most important question for Jimmy. NC, VS, or TR?

State your allegiance.

[Toppopia]

The most important question for Jimmy. NC, VS, or TR?

State your allegiance.

He said hes TR. Some posts back people were welcoming him into the mighty Republic and such.

[Malorn]

He said hes TR. Some posts back people were welcoming him into the mighty Republic and such.

Ahh I missed that line, saw it now. Excellent. He likes a challenge and didn't take the easy way out picking VS or NC.

[Otleaz]

He likes a challenge and didn't take the easy way out picking VS or NC.

Yeah, must be hard intentionally joining an inferior faction.

[Madlaps]

Damn, didn't think anyone would read all that crap.

Thank you though.

So you want to grab your top 50 and we will grab ours? I bet we will be able to carve out an area to meet.

Lol.

"First, HOE(Toxin) is extremely humble and rarely posts anything on the CAL forums regarding their status.

Lol. Stick to not posting as much, it makes you look better champ.

[Bags]

Lol.



Lol.

You should have seen his old "humble" signature. It went like, "Jepaul doesn't hack, he's just better than you!" :rolleyes:

[Ruffdog]

Beware enemies of the Republic :evil:

Welcome to the Universe Jimmy :cheers:

[Madlaps]

You should have seen his old "humble" signature. It went like, "Jepaul doesn't hack, he's just better than you!" :rolleyes:

Hah. It is pretty funny, maybe they can milk the pinnacle of their of their lives from 8 years ago a bit more... Whatever makes you feel important, I guess.

[deltase]

Get him an account. PS2 success is based on the community involvement. The more he understands us, the better use he is. Assimilate him

We are PSU. Your minds and gaming skills will be added to our own. Resistance is futile!


Hmm i hope he doesn't influence the game in a bad manner.

Edit: after seen some posts and two of his videos, i think he will do good in here!

http://i.imgur.com/bWeDA.png

[Shogun]

jimmies posts show that he has the same opinion on "watering down" of fps games as the majority of us has.
having someone with this opinion in the dev team is great! i don´t understand the panic some people have just because he played some games they don´t like?!?!

matt already told us, what jimmy is here for, and even more important, what he is NOT here for, so calm down ;)

it´s really time for beta. we are all going nuts and need to shoot at something SOON!

i hope the devs have warned jimmy of the extreme passion in this community, and that he might have to take some serious shitstorm before he is accepted and praised like the other devs, who already have their rightful places in the olymp of game-making. but the things he posted so far give me hope for the game!

he even played ps1 and fell in love with the experience at once. just like us. and he is known for fighting against the infamous dumbing down of fps games, we all hate so much.
he might be employed to get the feel of the weapons right, but i am sure he will be taking part in a lot of team discussions about other gamemechanics as well, influencing the team the right way!

so i think it´s a good thing we have him in the team!
now hire hamma as well and we are set ;)

[Solidblock]

jimmies posts show that he has the same opinion on "watering down" of fps games as the majority of us has.
having someone with this opinion in the dev team is great! i don´t understand the panic some people have just because he played some games they don´t like?!?!

matt already told us, what jimmy is here for, and even more important, what he is NOT here for, so calm down ;)

it´s really time for beta. we are all going nuts and need to shoot at something SOON!

i hope the devs have warned jimmy of the extreme passion in this community, and that he might have to take some serious shitstorm before he is accepted and praised like the other devs, who already have their rightful places in the olymp of game-making. but the things he posted so far give me hope for the game!

he even played ps1 and fell in love with the experience at once. just like us. and he is known for fighting against the infamous dumbing down of fps games, we all hate so much.
he might be employed to get the feel of the weapons right, but i am sure he will be taking part in a lot of team discussions about other gamemechanics as well, influencing the team the right way!

so i think it´s a good thing we have him in the team!
now hire hamma as well and we are set ;)

Amen, amen :rock:

[Mezorin]

He seems like a good guy with a good head on his shoulders, and I agree with his video sentiment on the guns in CS:GO.

If I had one complaint with what I saw at E3 (other than TTK), its that the guns looked a little floaty and detached compared to what they should be. NC guns in particular felt like there was a detachment from the kick you'd get on the screen (which was almost null) and the cone of fire where the shots were landing.

I don't know about you guys, I'd rather have a gun that bucks and takes skill to control the muzzle climb but generally puts shots where the cross hair is at the time rather than a VS style pew pew gun with zero kick, zero muzzle climb but its cone of fire couldn't hit a Winnebago at 30 yards when sighted in. Both do the same thing in the greater scheme of things for balance (ie fast fire = tough to hit a target), but one actually feels like a Gauss Rifle in your hands. Whisenhunt gets that, and I'm glad he's on as a senior dev for the weapon fine tuning :)

[Myomoto]

When you guys say "tweak the gunplay", do you mean adjusting stuff like the amount of kick of gun in either of the four directions (up/down left/right), the speed at which the cone of fire expands during continued full auto fire, reload speed, time to kill, etc?

Also, please tell me that we can switch between single/burst and full auto fire on weapons where it would be appropiate.

[Shogun]

When you guys say "tweak the gunplay", do you mean adjusting stuff like the amount of kick of gun in either of the four directions (up/down left/right), the speed at which the cone of fire expands during continued full auto fire, reload speed, time to kill, etc?

Also, please tell me that we can switch between single/burst and full auto fire on weapons where it would be appropiate.

i guess that are the things we are talking about, along with some others like reload times, bullet-drop, accuracy while moving/jumping and things we don´t even know of. simply everything that makes guns in the game feel like real guns instead of simple point and click death-scanners.

[Vanoras]

i guess that are the things we are talking about, along with some others like reload times, bullet-drop, accuracy while moving/jumping and things we don´t even know of. simply everything that makes guns in the game feel like real guns instead of simple point and click death-scanners.

I hope this game doesn't turn in to a bunny with guns game.

[Shogun]

I hope this game doesn't turn in to a bunny with guns game.

that´s the point!
i am sure jimmy has the same oppinion.

[T MAN]

I hope this game doesn't turn in to a bunny with guns game.

that´s the point!
i am sure jimmy has the same oppinion.

Not so sure about that, he's all for bunny hopping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6aCOR75am0&feature=plcp

[Pillar of Armor]

Light assault is the "bunny hop" class. If that's how you play, that's what you should play. HA shouldn't be able to pull that crap.

[Otleaz]

Not so sure about that, he's all for bunny hopping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6aCOR75am0&feature=plcp

Fire this man... RIGHT NOW.

Either that, or get me a server with less than 10 ping so people can't exploit latency with that bullshit and call it "skill"

/rant

Oh well, I guess I can kiss Immersion goodbye. I fuckin love that dude, why do all of the big bad developers hate him so?

[TheInferno]

Oh my goodness, he says he want a feature in a sequel to a game that was in the original, and that without it he believes there isn't as high a skill ceiling!

*coughsancsgunnersfortanksttkcough*

Seriously, he already said he's not turning this into CS, so why should his opinions on CS matter here? His experience with what makes a weapon sound and feel good and play well are what he was hired for, right?

[Otleaz]

Oh my goodness, he says he want a feature in a sequel to a game that was in the original, and that without it he believes there isn't as high a skill ceiling!

*coughsancsgunnersfortanksttkcough*

Seriously, he already said he's not turning this into CS, so why should his opinions on CS matter here? His experience with what makes a weapon sound and feel good and play well are what he was hired for, right?

Well maybe he thinks weapons feel best when they are flying through the air in random directions?

You ever think about that, HUH?

[Algo]

Bunny hopping in cs is for moving faster and if you get caught doing that you're dead in one nanosecond. different game.

[AzK]

Not so sure about that, he's all for bunny hopping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6aCOR75am0&feature=plcp

And he is right about that whole movement thing (not limited to bunnyhopping), because games like cod, bf, or in his comparison, cs:go, have an absolutely awful skillcap and that's vastly due to the movement/ads systems. In those games, people are just moving around and turretting whenever they get into a med/long (but in some cases short too) range fights with ridiculously fast ttks, and player skill only matters to a certain point with that kind of gameplay. That's the fundamental reason why in those games even terrible players have fair chances of killing vastly superior ones, because it doesn't matter how great the good players are, they're limited by game mechanics in major ways.

Bf3's suppression mechanic, accuracy penalty for a second after you stop sprinting, major accuracy penalties with most weapons while moving and even worse when jumping, are other flashing examples of bad mechanics put there to lower the skillcap of the game so even worse than average players can have a good time at the expenses of good players who can't excel because the game itself limits them.

Took bf3 mainly as an example since that kind of feel seems what they were going for with ps2. And i really hope Jimmy saves their game in that regard because he doesn't (rightfully so) like bf3's gunplay.

[raykor]

Guys he's not here to change PlanetSide 2 into CS, or make an eSport, he's here to help us make our weapons FEEL awesome, balanced and competitive. Having a competitive FPS player on the team is going to help us out a lot.

That’s disturbing. The feel of firing a weapon is a very personal preference and my personal opinion is that PS1 got it right.

I watched Jimmy’s video comparing the feel of the weapons in CS 1.6 vs. GO and I concluded two things: I don’t like either game’s implementation and I don’t agree with Jimmy’s personal preference of how guns should feel (CS 1.6).

In 1.6, your screen will start shaking if you continue to fire a weapon in full auto. I agree with Jimmy that it feels natural and the subsequent spray of bullets also makes sense especially since the spray tends to follow the direction of the screen jerking. The problem is that I personally HATE games that shake my screen constantly. As an older gamer, I find it LITERALLY AND PHYSICALLY NAUSIATING. I simply cannot play those games.

In CS GO, the weapon fire he showed in that video does indeed look bad. The screen no longer shakes (which I like) but the cross hairs remain tight and there is wild spraying with no visual feedback whatsoever other than the impact points and that would only be visible in close quarters with a solid wall like he used.

In PS1, your screen did NOT shake (my preference) but the interface provided good feedback that your shots were starting to spray via an expanding CoF reticle. An expanded CoF would have minimal impact at point blank range but at MA distances, it made all the difference. PS1 encouraged firing in bursts to be effective.

So I guess I’ll just add this to the growing list of changes being made to my favorite video game (of all time and across all genres) that are starting to make me believe that this sequel is just not for me.

[WiFiN]

In my opinion CS and CSS was crap in regards of weapon mechanics, starting from the RayTrace "ballistics"(frankly, abscence of those) handling and ending with ingame superiority based on exploit usage (bunny-hopping, fast reloads, e.t.c.) instead of tactics and teamplay. Sure, it was fun and had it's time, but hell, thank god PS2 will be different in mechanics and I hope Jim sees that too.

[Hamma]

Hopefully there was a no bunny hopping clause in his contract. :p

[jepaul]

Not so sure about that, he's all for bunny hopping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6aCOR75am0&feature=plcp



HAHAHA, love this video. I love how he talks about skill ceiling. That CS is a 13 year game because the skill ceiling is so high. Let's not forget, Sony is making this game to make money. The business model is set. Fast, guns, movement. Time to re up a lot of subs on PS for some of you guys it seems. I don't really ever hear PS vets talk about being great FPS players. All i ever here about is how organized they were. The handing writing is on the wall here. Time for organized talent.

But, please continue the bitching and moaning here and I'm sure Sony will change their entire business model a few months before release and go back to the drawing board.

Fire away.

[Fek]

In my opinion CS and CSS was crap in regards of weapon mechanics, starting from the RayTrace "ballistics"(frankly, abscence of those) handling and ending with ingame superiority based on exploit usage (bunny-hopping, fast reloads, e.t.c.) instead of tactics and teamplay.

CS is universally regarded as one of the greatest tactical team based shooters of all time (maybe XBOX kiddies and those too close-minded to recognise quality in any game except those they play disagree).

All the greatest FPS games have had both a high personal skill ceiling and team skill ceiling. If the original PS1 devs had taken inspiration from the gunplay of games around at the time then I reckon it would still be seriously popular today.

[TheInferno]

Well maybe he thinks weapons feel best when they are flying through the air in random directions?

You ever think about that, HUH?

Go eat some food. Your blood sugar is low or something, because you're incredibly cranky for no real reason.

Maybe he thinks weapons feel best when they are flying through the air in random directions. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe he'd like it if the game was instanced and max of 32 people. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe he's part of the lizardpeople conspiracy that is now branching into video games to try and make sure all of them have subliminal messages!

Maybe you should actually realize that hiring one guy doesn't mean that the game will completely change. It's not like Higby, T-Ray, and everyone else we've been praising on the dev team for their openness is suddenly less valuable, and it's not like they'll suddenly start ignoring the community.

Also, if you read what he actually said, he doesn't want to turn this into CS. Why do you want to hate him so badly?

So I guess I’ll just add this to the growing list of changes being made to my favorite video game (of all time and across all genres) that are starting to make me believe that this sequel is just not for me.

They hired one guy! That's all they've done! At least wait till we see some updated gameplay footage or beta before we start going all pitchforks and torches, good god.

[Graywolves]

Hopefully there was a no bunny hopping clause in his contract. :p

Yeah, no one should be rewarded for just smashing spacebar.

I don't think he's supporting that kind of mindless bunny hop for CS though and I don't think he believes that belongs in planetside either.

[AzK]

Yeah, no one should be rewarded for just smashing spacebar.

Actual gameplay understanding: -9999.

[Vancha]

The more I think about this the more I think it'll be good for PS2. PS1 was never a pure tactical shooter. It was a strange hybrid between tactical and arcade, and I don't think PS2 has that arcade aspect to it. If he can bring that, then it might be the best decision they've made so far.

Not so sure about that, he's all for bunny hopping.
No, he's all for bunny hopping in CS:GO. :p

[Otleaz]

Go eat some food. Your blood sugar is low or something, because you're incredibly cranky for no real reason.
I was being sarcastic since you pointed out that he isn't interested in using CS mechanics in this game. It is a technique I have mastered over the years to divert attention away from the fact that I was wrong.

[raykor]

They hired one guy! That's all they've done! At least wait till we see some updated gameplay footage or beta before we start going all pitchforks and torches, good god.

I didn’t say I had CONCLUDED that PS2 would be horrible but simply that this is just one more piece of information leading me to suspect that it MIGHT NOT be for me.

It is impossible for people not to begin forming opinions based on the information we read and videos we’ve seen. Experience and reason have taught me to wait until I can try it myself for an extended period before reaching a conclusion but that will not prevent me from starting to form opinions and occasionally express them in a medium created explicitly for that purpose.

Higby has made it very clear—over and over again—that PS2 is being built to modern FPS standards. SOE wants to attract the tens of millions of people that play modern shooters and I don’t blame them for catering more to them than to the 100k or so that played PS1.

It may well be phenomenally successful and insanely popular, but just not for me.

[Graywolves]

Actual gameplay understanding: -9999.

No one should. In a game where the weapons are reliable it's not that big of a deal. For movement I currently see it as something used due to lack of sprint. When jumping around boxes and effectively navigating through the terrain, that is skill that should be rewarded.

But the last thing anyone wants to see in the battlefield is someone jumping around mindlessly in front of 5 people. In games like 2142 this was the issue because of the factors surrounding jumping/movement and the factors surrounding aiming. You would have a guy just jumping around dropping C4.

[Fek]

Yeah, no one should be rewarded for just smashing spacebar.

But the last thing anyone wants to see in the battlefield is someone jumping around mindlessly in front of 5 people. In games like 2142 this was the issue because of the factors surrounding jumping/movement and the factors surrounding aiming. You would have a guy just jumping around dropping C4.

I'm pretty sure you are frauding and have not actually played either CS or BF2142. I suppose it is possible that you were so bad at using the guns in 2142 that people may have actually managed to run up to you and C4 you as a joke.

[AzK]

No one should. In a game where the weapons are reliable it's not that big of a deal. For movement I currently see it as something used due to lack of sprint. When jumping around boxes and effectively navigating through the terrain, that is skill that should be rewarded.

But the last thing anyone wants to see in the battlefield is someone jumping around mindlessly in front of 5 people. In games like 2142 this was the issue because of the factors surrounding jumping/movement and the factors surrounding aiming. You would have a guy just jumping around dropping C4.

I don't see a problem here. If you can't hit a guy because he's moving faster through game mechanics or simply because he's jumping (because you mentioned 2142 and bf games do NOT have bunnyhopping, so, wtf.), maybe you don't deserve to kill him at all.

As of that example in 1.6 train (8.38) in that last video , if a guy is superior to you because he actually knows how to move properly and put himself into a better position, he should be reward for it. Also, always as shown in that video, if you also know how to move, you know what to do to counter them. People aren't "mindlessly mashing their spacebars" in those scenarios.

It's hardly as simple as "lololol people shouldn't be rewarded for mashing the spacebar". If what someone is doing REALLY is simply just "mashing the spacebar" without putting any thought behind it, and you can't kill him because of it, then you have a problem.

[Otleaz]

I'm pretty sure you are frauding and have not actually played either CS or BF2142. I suppose it is possible that you were so bad at using the guns in 2142 that people may have actually managed to run up to you and C4 you as a joke.

Bad at guns? This is a latency issue, not an aiming issue. Hitting a bunny hopper is all luck if you have over 20 ping. It is obvious that it screws with how the game reads things when people bunny hop.

[AzK]

Bad at guns? This is a latency issue, not an aiming issue. Hitting a bunny hopper is all luck if you have over 20 ping. It is obvious that it screws with how the game reads things when people bunny hop.

My "Horrible player detection" sense is tingling.

[Fek]

Bad at guns? This is a latency issue, not an aiming issue. Hitting a bunny hopper is all luck if you have over 20 ping.

I think you are confusing actual bunnyhopping present in games like CSS with the simple jump function found in all first person games.

Bunnyhopping is completely impossible in BF2142. Shooting people is extremely easy no matter how they used the in game movement.

[Otleaz]

My "Horrible player detection" sense is tingling.

Typical of an NC player. I bet you also think TR "Spray and pray" guns will be easier to use compared to the NC "Slow but powerful" guns.

[AzK]

Typical of an NC player. I bet you also think TR "Spray and pray" guns will be easier to use compared to the NC "Slow but powerful" guns.

No, but i think that if i'll be fighting people who don't even know the difference between normal jumps, bunny hopping, and strafe jumping, what factions/weapons i'll be using will be irrelevant.

[Mohawk]

Typical of an NC player. I bet you also think TR "Spray and pray" guns will be easier to use compared to the NC "Slow but powerful" guns.

Oh look, I don't have an argument any more so I am going to attack the person and rant about a completely unrelated topic! Cute. Also the MCG as a weapon is easier to use than a Jackhammer for most players, the Jackhammer rewards people who can aim well, the MCG is a lot more forgiving for those who can't. What bad players struggle with using an MCG and why they cry its a "hard weapon" is because they have terrible movement and positioning, if you can dictate the range you fight at then you have a much higher chance of winning, many people I see using the MCG like running up to peoples faces and wonder why they then die, it must be because the other weapons are overpowered.

[TheInferno]

I was being sarcastic since you pointed out that he isn't interested in using CS mechanics in this game. It is a technique I have mastered over the years to divert attention away from the fact that I was wrong.

Ah, my apologies then. I'm sometimes rather thick.

RDX jumpers were in 2142 and they were rather annoying. They'd usually come from behind or from corners, usually on the Titan (loved that game mode), hence my preference for friendly fire on. If you're already in the blast radius and the guy is hopping like a maniac it's really hard to hit him before he kills you and himself.

@Mohawk, how is "My "Horrible player detection" sense is tingling." not attacking the person? Sheesh, ganging up on a dude.

[AzK]

@Mohawk, how is "My "Horrible player detection" sense is tingling." not attacking the person? Sheesh, ganging up on a dude.

It wasn't a player attack, i was merely stating a fact that emerged from the guy repeatedly self owning reply after reply, in a funny way. Being a bad or average player isn't something someone should feel insulted for, i don't have a problem with bad players, i even help them if i can, but when on top of being bad they act all arrogant and shit, pretending to know about stuff they clearly don't, then they're annoying. I merely called the guy out on his bs.

He on the other hand, not being able to reply anything relevant on the matter, because there wasn't really anything he could have said in reply, went on on attacking me for my faction and assuming on things i never even discussed in this thread (tr being easy mode compared to nc or whatever).

The difference between the 2 "attacks" is simple. And that's not counting that the former was based on reality while the latter completely made up.

[TheInferno]

Ah well, fair enough. Shall we end the argument about this and go participate in one of the many, many, many, many, many, many other arguments? :p

AMA this week, right?

[AzK]

It has just been brought to my attention that there currently are implants to decrease the accuracy penalty you have right after sprinting or lower the movement penalty while using iron sights :groovy:. I don't think those penalties should even exist to begin with (or should be really minor) but well, at least it's something.

[Bags]

Personal opinions of ours on bunnyhopping aside, do you guys REALLY think he could come in this late and get them to implement it?

[ThermalReaper]

Personal opinions of ours on bunnyhopping aside, do you guys REALLY think he could come in this late and get them to implement it?

Simple answer: Not really.

Complex answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgI2ZQVyrBo

[Ratstomper]

I'm ambivalent about Esports ideals wiggling into the Planetside feel. Taking the video posted earlier into account, I feel like "training" yourself to move to strafe to the side just enough so you can shoot at just the right time to expose yourself the least and whatnot...It just seems....not fun. It happened in PS1 and it was always lame as hell. I'm guessing this isn't what PS2 is shooting for (so to speak), but it still worries me to some extent.

GunZ is a perfect example of what I mean. That game is entirely dependent on frantic key patterns to "style" or some nonsense. It was tedious and boring to play because of weird bugs and twitchy controls that became "part of the game".

Maybe I'm just not competitive enough to appreciate it, but that type of play never appealed to me. I feel like planetside (and most games) should be more about tactics and thinking on your feet and less so about having twitchy reflexes.

I'm serious. When someone says "360 No scope" I wanna flip a table.

[Bags]

GunZ is a perfect example of what I mean. That game is entirely dependent on frantic key patterns to "style" or some nonsense. It was tedious and boring to play because of weird bugs and twitchy controls that became "part of the game".



>gunz
>boring

:eek::eek::eek:

Yeah, I agree, I hate it when games take skill to play.

[Fek]

I'm ambivalent about Esports ideals wiggling into the Planetside feel. Taking the video posted earlier into account, I feel like "training" yourself to move to strafe to the side just enough so you can shoot at just the right time to expose yourself the least and whatnot...It just seems....not fun. It happened in PS1 and it was always lame as hell. I'm guessing this isn't what PS2 is shooting for (so to speak), but it still worries me to some extent.

Maybe I'm just not competitive enough to appreciate it, but that type of play never appealed to me. I feel like planetside (and most games) should be more about tactics and thinking on your feet and less so about having twitchy reflexes.


I love all these moronic posts implying that any game where the skill ceiling is any higher than the floor i.e. the gunplay is more complex than "run until you see someone, stop, then spray in their direction" lack "teamwork" and "strategy".

CS, BF2, BF2142, Quake, UT all not only have a high individual skill ceiling i.e. you can play it for a long time and always be improving, but also require vasts about of strategy and teamwork. Only morons think engaging gunplay and high strategy/teamwork requirements are somehow mutually exclusive.

I know all you BF3 kiddies think the absolute pinnacle of strategy is accidentally missing someone and being rewarded for "suppression", or alternatively two big orgies of players charging at each other and the bigger zerg automatically being handed the win, but there's actually more to it than that.

[Ratstomper]

>gunz
>boring

:eek::eek::eek:

Yeah, I agree, I hate it when games take skill to play.

Since when did GunZ take skill to play? Was just a bunch of people smacking repetitive key combinations to fly around the maps like mary effing poppins with a sword instead of an umbrella...That's not skill. That's called muscle memory.

Skill is a combination of making good decisions and adapting to changing situations. Unfortunately, the nature of video games sometimes allows people to circumvent the necessity to think on their feet. It's a shame, really.

[AzK]

Personal opinions of ours on bunnyhopping aside, do you guys REALLY think he could come in this late and get them to implement it?

Yeah but the thing is, people against it don't even know what bunny hopping and strafe jumping is all about. While people who actually like it and know what it is, are fully aware that it won't be introduced in the game because it's something that depends from the game's engine as well.

In fact, if we look closely, nobody who likes it is actually asking for it to be in the game, because they know that it's simply not a realistic thing to ask for. They're merely hoping for aiming/accuracy mechanics changes.

Things like being able to fire effectively while jumping, not having your aim terribly screwed after landing from a jump, not having your aim terribly screwed by moving, not having your aim screwed for half a second after you've stopped sprinting don't have anything to do with bunny hopping or strafe jumping, which are game mechanics that allow people strafing and jumping with the correct timing to actually gain speed, momentum, and do moves/reach areas that they wouldn't be able to if they didn't know how to use the mechanic properly, key word in that sentence being "properly" because bunny hopping and strafe jumping =/= randomly mashing the spacebar.

All that people like me ask/hope for is that the devs and this new guy will remove as much randomness from the gunplay as possible, because when your gunplay involves uncontrollable spray patterns, ridiculous crosshair penalties, or some ridiculousness like bf3's suppression, the skill cap gets so low it's not even funny. Moving, stopping, turretting with iron sights up, moving again, rinse and repeat isn't exactly great gameplay, casual and within everyone's reach maybe, but great? Meh.

[Ratstomper]

I love all these moronic posts implying that any game where the skill ceiling is any higher than the floor i.e. the gunplay is more complex than "run until you see someone, stop, then spray in their direction" lack "teamwork" and "strategy".

CS, BF2, BF2142, Quake, UT, all not only have a high individual skill ceiling i.e. you can play it for a long time and always be improving, but also require vasts about of strategy and teamwork. Only morons think engaging gunplay and high strategy/teamwork requirements are somehow mutually exclusive. I know all you BF3 kiddies think the absolute pinnacle of strategy is missing someone and being rewarded for "suppression", or alternatively two big orgies of players charging at each other and the bigger zerg automatically being handed the win, but there's actually more to it than that.

You've both twisted my point and misunderstood who I was. I've never played BF3, so I wouldn't know about any of that jive. I HAVE played a lot of games where tactics were almost completely dismissed and lame controls schemes were used instead. I've played a lot of UT in my day and there were those people who exclusively learned how to jump and shoot rockets just in the right way to kill people...and that's all they did (to great effect). It became boring doing the same counter for those people and I eventually stopped playing because it was no longer engaging; too many one-trick ponies. Bunny hopping, dolphin diving, no scoping, etc; these are extreme examples of the kind of mentality that a lot of "Pro gaming" people have. It's intentionally misusing mechanics of the game (because it's effective) until it becomes untenable to do anything else.

At a point, that twitchy style of gameplay gets to where your average person won't waste the time to learn how to do it; because it's boring and tedious and they have better things to do with their time. "Casuals" is the pejorative that some gamers have deemed to give them because of it and it's ridiculous. The learning curve for a game shouldn't be so specialized that it can't carry over into another game or facet of life. Games that do that don't offer much for the person who plays it and have already pidgeon-holed itself into a game only some people will enjoy, instead of a game that most people enjoy.

I'm not saying traditional e-sports don't have their place, but it shouldn't be in Planetside. I don't think they're trying to turn PS2 into an e-sport, but the design of items that every player will be interacting with the most (weapons) is incredibly important into what kind of game PS2 will be.


All that people like me ask/hope for is that the devs and this new guy will remove as much randomness from the gunplay as possible, because when your gunplay involves uncontrollable spray patterns, ridiculous crosshair penalties, or some ridiculousness like bf3's suppression, the skill cap gets so low it's not even funny. Moving, stopping, turretting with iron sights up, moving again, rinse and repeat isn't exactly great gameplay, casual and within everyone's reach maybe, but great? Meh.

I wouldn't have any issue with setting a proper "skill" level for the game, but I do think tactics and smart play should trump most who may just be more used to the controls, but playing stupidly. That means not implementing things that let people steamroll others with a cheap gimmick.

EDIT: I'm not a fan of CoF either, if that's one of the things you're talking about. Make players learn how to hold low if they're going full auto, just don't make them do things that a real space soldier in the future wouldn't do.

[AzK]

I wouldn't have any issue with setting a proper "skill" level for the game, but I do think tactics and smart play should trump most who may just be more used to the controls, but playing stupidly. That means not implementing things that let people steamroll others with a cheap gimmick.

Let me stop your right there. What if you have a guy (or a squad) more used to the controls AND also playing with tactics with organized mates against people who are only used to the controls OR are only organized?

As Fek said in one of his replies, having deep gameplay/gunplay mechanics doesn't exclude the use of tactics. For some reason, you seem to think it does, and i don't understand why.

People who have mastered the controls and mechanics of a game, spent alot of time with the game, and they know the tactical aspects of it aswell, that's why they'll noobstomp people who are simply playing tactically but who can't actually play properly. To them it may seem that the guy just owned them cause he was abusing a game mechanic, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Besides, if they think that and it's so easy to do, why can't they do it as well WHILE playing tactically together? I'll tell you why: Skill.

[Ratstomper]

Let me stop your right there. What if you have a guy (or a squad) more used to the controls AND also playing with tactics with organized mates against people who are only used to the controls OR are only organized?

As Fek said in one of his replies, having deep gameplay/gunplay mechanics doesn't exclude the use of tactics. For some reason, you seem to think it does, and i don't understand why.

A squad who is used to the controls and is using valid tactics (flanking, MAX crashes, breaching, making use of cover etc) and not using invalid tactics (dolphin diving, bunny hopping, anything else that is an abuse of a mechanic) should trump a squad who is not used to the controls, but is using valid tactics. Yes, marginally, because by "used to the controls", I assume you mean handling weapons properly/knowing what the wasd keys do, etc. No one should be "noobstomped" (what a dumbass word) because they have a firm grasp of reality and it doesn't occur to them that something that makes no sense would be incredibly effective.

Engaging gunplay is great! However, there's a blurry line there where one mans engaging gunplay will be someone elses cheap gimmick. My rule of thumb is: If I were actually in the game, would I be able to do it successfully? Popping out of cover by sidestepping for just a split second and having your sights dead on is unrealistic and stupid. It defies logical sense. The same goes for shooting while jumping or running. If it were real life, you'd be spraying lead all over the damn place.

[Fek]

Engaging gunplay is great! However, there's a blurry line there where one mans engaging gunplay will be someone elses cheap gimmick. My rule of thumb is: If I were actually in the game, would I be able to do it successfully? Popping out of cover by sidestepping for just a split second and having your sights dead on is unrealistic and stupid. It defies logical sense. The same goes for shooting while jumping or running. If it were real life, you'd be spraying lead all over the damn place.

I think you are looking at the wrong game then, because the only thing less likely than Jimmy Whisenhunt (or any of the devs for that matter) turning Planetside 2 into Counterstrike, is them turning Planetside 2 into ARMA.

[AzK]

A squad who is used to the controls and is using valid tactics (flanking, MAX crashes, breaching, making use of cover etc) and not using invalid tactics (dolphin diving, bunny hopping, anything else that is an abuse of a mechanic) should trump a squad who is not used to the controls, but is using valid tactics. Yes, marginally, because by "used to the controls", I assume you mean handling weapons properly. No one should be "noobstomped" (what a dumbass word) because they have a firm grasp of reality and it doesn't occur to them that something that makes no sense would be incredibly effective.

Engaging gunplay is great! However, there's a blurry line there where one mans engaging gunplay will be someone elses cheap gimmick. My rule of thumb is: If I were actually in the game, would I be able to do it successfully? Popping out of cover by sidestepping for just a split second and having your sights dead on is unrealistic and stupid. It defies logical sense. The same goes for shooting while jumping or running. If it were real life, you'd be spraying lead all over the damn place.

The only things that make no sense are the ones you are saying. If a game is built in a way that allows certain things, those things are part of the game's ruleset and should/must be used in order to be the best player you can possibly be. When things are considered an exploit devs patch the game and remove them or change them.

Also, thinking about what you should or should not be able to do in a game comparing it to reality is simply an atrocious thing for me to even read. Reality =/= Video games. Video games have their own rules, knowing the rules and possibilities is part of the skill involved into playing, it is a good and skilled player duty to know them and do everything the games allow in order to best his enemies.

When people draw silly lines and start whining "waah this shouldn't be possible it's a glitch it's an exploit bla bla bla" the real reason behind it is that they aren't able to do it as well as the guy who's owning them, simple fact.

Again, check the video Fek posted, with that cs guy jumping all over the place against those absolutely clueless whiners who choose to simply complain about it rather than actually DO something about it. Reality is they probably wouldn't have even known where to start/what to do to counter him. Pathetic.

[Ratstomper]

I think you are looking at the wrong game then, because the only thing less likely than Jimmy Whisenhunt (or any of the devs for that matter) turning Planetside 2 into Counterstrike, is them turning Planetside 2 into ARMA.

Lol. Nice try.

I'm not going to completely disregard SoE's history, but Planetside is still a war simulator and your little cheap shooty bit is only a little part of it, if it's made that way at all. My hope is that it's not what all the leet CoD chumps want and they go back to whatever cesspool they crawled out of. As for the FPS players who are more inclined to using their brains, I hope it's something that fits all their expectations. We've got enough mindless shooters.

[Bags]

Since when did GunZ take skill to play? Was just a bunch of people smacking repetitive key combinations to fly around the maps like mary effing poppins with a sword instead of an umbrella...That's not skill. That's called muscle memory.

Skill is a combination of making good decisions and adapting to changing situations. Unfortunately, the nature of video games sometimes allows people to circumvent the necessity to think on their feet. It's a shame, really.

GunZ - Gosu by Solstice (HD) - YouTube

Sure isn't skill in here. :confused::confused:

[Fek]

GunZ - Gosu by Solstice (HD) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iodkYgrCvU&feature=related)

Sure isn't skill in here. :confused::confused:


Nope, my expert knowledge of this particular game tells me the player in the video is mashing his space bar whilst randomly clicking his mouse buttons.

[WarbirdTD]

In regards to the players asking where my allegiance lies: Glory to the Republic!


He's ok in my book! I want it to FEEL like I'm shooting vanu in the face.

[ColovianFurHelm]

... is them turning Planetside 2 into ARMA.

I'd still play the hell out of that.

[Ratstomper]

The only things that make no sense are the ones you are saying. If a game is built in a way that allows certain things, those things are part of the game's ruleset and should/must be used in order to be the best player you can possibly be. When things are considered an exploit devs patch the game and remove them or change them.

Also, thinking about what you should or should not be able to do in a game comparing it to reality is simply an atrocious thing for me to even read. Reality =/= Video games. Video games have their own rules, it is a good and skilled players duty to do everything the games allow in order to best his enemies.

When people draw silly lines and start whining "waah this shouldn't be possible it's a glitch it's an exploit bla bla bla" the real reason behind it is that they aren't able to do it as well as the guy who's owning them, simple fact.

Again, check the video Fek posted, with that cs guy jumping all over the place against those absolutely clueless whiners who choose to simply complain about it rather than actually DO something about it. Reality is they probably wouldn't have even known where to start/what to do to counter him. Pathetic.

Wrong, friend. Devs don't patch exploits because A) They're lazy and don't want to do their job, B) Egotistical and refuse to admit their game has exploits or C) The leet dudes start crying about how it's part of the game now so leave it, because it might just make them lose their internet leetness, and the devs, not wanting to upset what fanbase they have left, are forced to leave it in.

Additionally, I'm glad you find the logical truth atrocious. I can't say I'm surprised. The fact is that you do not retain the right to not be offended. If you don't have the wits or tact to see when a mechanic is obviously being abused, then there's not much to be done for you.

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe when someone goes to play a shooter, they're going in with the mindset that it's tactical (CRAZY, I know)? Maybe they see someone jumping around like a grade A lobotominte and don't do it because they know it makes you look dumb as hell and makes no sense? You see, what you want isn't a "skill level", what you want is a lack of intuitiveness for how the engine works. Once someone knows gets used to what buttons do what, they only dividing factor should be how smart they play, not how many hours they've practiced jump shooting.

I don't give a rats ass about some CS video. I've played games long enough to know that cheap antics are abound, I don't need a video to tell me that. The PS2 dev team is VERY connected to it's community and have shown that they don't want to add things that could potentially be abused. The primary focus of a game is to be as fun for as many people as possible. It's not the devs job to cater to the dregs of gaming society who are willing to ruin the game they've worked so hard to create for the sake of e-peen size increases. Go read a book.

Again, I don't think They brought in Wisenhunt to specifically do that. I'm ok with taking some randomness out of the guns (goodbye, cof). I DO NOT want to see cheap gimmicks that will only hurt the game as a whole. That means hyper accurate shooting while jumping and moving. That means excessive strafing. That means any manner of thing that doesn't make logical sense, because without that logical sense, the game is no longer intuitive and only becomes a job, not a game.

[babbyravvy]

Nope, my expert knowledge of this particular game tells me the player in the video is mashing his space bar whilst randomly clicking his mouse buttons.

oh lordy

[Solidblock]

Bunny hop or not, I don't care. I can confidently say from the looking at the beta that bunny hop will not be an issue, but of course that's just me.. Even if it was, I'd do it myself. The fact of doing it and knowing a TR or VS player is crying on the other side of Europe makes me smile ever so slightly.

[Ratstomper]

Sure isn't skill in here. :confused::confused:

Nope, my expert knowledge of this particular game tells me the player in the video is mashing his space bar whilst randomly clicking his mouse buttons.

Sure looks that way. Doesn't look like anything is being done. It's just a guy playing a girl with a katana and a pirate hat flailing around next to a guy who is also flailing. She also, evidently controls gravity and can instantly materialize guns out of nowhere without any real consequence of his/her actions.

Even still, It's just looks like a lot of flailing. Not satisfying or engaging.

[GuyFawkes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmyid1BgUHc&feature=relmfu

Adding another link for Jimmy's youtube thing. In this one he mentions ps1 within context of e3 and ps2. Its about half way through. He's doing some good stuff for fps scene. Enjoy.

[Bags]

Sure looks that way. Doesn't look like anything is being done. It's just a guy playing a girl with a katana and a pirate hat flailing around next to a guy who is also flailing. She also, evidently controls gravity and can instantly materialize guns out of nowhere without any real consequence of his/her actions.

Even still, It's just looks like a lot of flailing. Not satisfying or engaging.

It might not be your cup of tea, but it's kind of douchey to tell them they don't use any tactics or strategy or anything. It's not a war sim, and it never claimed to be. I don't understand how just because it doesn't play like Brownshooter 3 it doesn't take skill.

Also, I'm not sure why you felt it necessary to point out it's a guy playing a girl, when tons of people did that in PS1? Furthermore, female characters had better attack animations in that game, which is why 99% of the playerbase played female characters.

[babbyravvy]

Sure looks that way. Doesn't look like anything is being done. It's just a guy playing a girl with a katana and a pirate hat flailing around next to a guy who is also flailing. She also, evidently controls gravity and can instantly materialize guns out of nowhere without any real consequence of his/her actions.

Even still, It's just looks like a lot of flailing. Not satisfying or engaging.

Call of Duty = Mouse 2, mouse 1

Battlefield = Mouse 2, mouse 1.(often times though your gun just wont get the kill fast enough, so you'll wanna press 2 and then mouse 1)

Sure is satisfying.

[AzK]

Wrong, friend. Devs don't patch exploits because A) They're lazy and don't want to do their job, B) Egotistical and refuse to admit their game has exploits or C) The leet dudes start crying about how it's part of the game now so leave it, because it might just make them lose their internet leetness, and the devs, not wanting to upset what fanbase they have left, are forced to leave it in.

Additionally, I'm glad you find the logical truth atrocious. I can't say I'm surprised. The fact is that you do not retain the right to not be offended. If you don't have the wits or tact to see when a mechanic is obviously being abused, then there's not much to be done for you.

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe when someone goes to play a shooter, they're going in with the mindset that it's tactical (CRAZY, I know)? Maybe they see someone jumping around like a grade A lobotominte and don't do it because they know it makes you look dumb as hell and makes no sense? You see, what you want isn't a "skill level", what you want is a lack of intuitiveness for how the engine works. Once someone knows gets used to what buttons do what, they only dividing factor should be how smart they play, not how many hours they've practiced jump shooting.

I don't give a rats ass about some CS video. I've played games long enough to know that cheap antics are abound, I don't need a video to tell me that. The PS2 dev team is VERY connected to it's community and have shown that they don't want to add things that could potentially be abused. The primary focus of a game is to be as fun for as many people as possible. It's not the devs job to cater to the dregs of gaming society who are willing to ruin the game they've worked so hard to create for the sake of e-peen size increases. Go read a book.

Again, I don't think They brought in Wisenhunt to specifically do that. I'm ok with taking some randomness out of the guns (goodbye, cof). I DO NOT want to see cheap gimmicks that will only hurt the game as a whole. That means hyper accurate shooting while jumping and moving. That means excessive strafing. That means any manner of thing that doesn't make logical sense, because without that logical sense, the game is no longer intuitive and only becomes a job, not a game.

I think we've got a comedian here.

I'd advise you to think about the nonsense you're writing and go read this. http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/05/revisiting-why-incompetents-think-theyre-awesome/

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average.
Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. As Kruger and Dunning conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others"

[Ratstomper]

Call of Duty = Mouse 2, mouse 1

Battlefield = Mouse 2, mouse 1.(often times though your gun just wont get the kill fast enough, so you'll wanna press 2 and then mouse 1)

Sure is satisfying.

Yeah, I don't play those either. I played CoD for a while, but got very very tired of the playerbase and overall gameplay.

I think we've got a comedian here.

I'd advise you to think about the nonsense you're writing and go read this. http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/05/revisiting-why-incompetents-think-theyre-awesome/

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average.
Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. As Kruger and Dunning conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others"

Says the FPSer who relies on cheap abuse of mechanics to win games that mean nothing. If only you knew how ironic this post is.

[RodenyC]

In regards to the players asking where my allegiance lies: Glory to the Republic!

I don't like him.For this reason and this reason alone.

[GuyFawkes]

Says the FPSer who relies on cheap abuse of mechanics to win games that mean nothing. If only you knew how ironic this post is.

Knowing the game inside out, being steps ahead of someone else and being competent enough with their own skill to counter your enemy through hours and hours of in game practice, knowledge and reaction isn't cheap abuse of tactics, its being better.

[JesNC]

This thread is hilarious :D A handful of people arguing about a dozen definitions of the little word 'skill'.

Personally, I feel that defining 'skill' as learning and practicing certain input combinations and their timing (e.g. bunnyhop, strafe-shooting) a bit limiting. In fact, I abhor the idea that I would need to sit in front of my computer practicing StreetFighter'esque combos for hours just to NOT suck at PS2.

I'd much rather have 'skill' in PS2 defined as knowing where and where not to go, what to bring and how to play as a team with your buddies.


/rant off

But since this thread is about Jimmy Whisenhunt joining the Dev team to work on weapons, their feel and their implementation, I guess my rant above is just hot air, like the last 10 or so pages of this thread ;)

Welcome aboard, Mr. Whisenhunt, wish you a good time at SOE!!

[AzK]

Another troll exposed.

Nice job AzK.

:cool2: brofist :cool2:

[ThermalReaper]

Congratulations on making the team. I hope you make the guns feel right alongside the rest of the developers.

[Seagoon]

So AzK, just to clear things up, do you believe that you can have an FPS with a high skill cap that does not include fast fluid movement with highly accurate guns where movement and twitch skill are key?

[Ratstomper]

Knowing the game inside out, being steps ahead of someone else and being competent enough with their own skill to counter your enemy through hours and hours of in game practice, knowledge and reaction isn't cheap abuse of tactics, its being better.

The hours and hours you spend in game practicing should be focused on the content of the game, not the missed bugs of the engine. That means if I'm going to be a sniper, I need to learn optimal ranges for me using the rifle and how to lead and adjust for bullet drop over a range of distances. If I'm a pilot, I need spacial awareness and to learn to maneuver. That means learning about largescale battlefield tactics; positioning, adapting to changing situations and learning when to attack, when to defend and when to move. In small scale encounters, that means learning to have siatuational awareness, how to fight effectively with a squad, how to use cover and how to flank effectively.

There's plenty of content for people to learn (as the designers intended). Exploiting bugs is like when sports stars use steroids. One guy did it to boost his performance with little work and now others have to use them to keep on par. That still doesn't change the fact that the average person has little respect for them for it and it hurts the game as well as the people involved. It's no longer about the skill of the person, it's about how well they know the exploits.

[GreatMazinkaise]

I'd much rather have 'skill' in PS2 defined as knowing where and where not to go, what to bring and how to play as a team with your buddies.

Here's the problem with that definition of skill... those are the bare minimum qualities everyone playing the game should have. It's like multi-tasking and working well with a team being listed as qualifications on your resume; EVERYONE has or should have those qualifications just to be part of the workforce.

Real skill goes beyond working well with a team and knowing the routes, something everyone ought to do.

[GuyFawkes]

This thread is hilarious :D A handful of people arguing about a dozen definitions of the little word 'skill'.

Personally, I feel that defining 'skill' as learning and practicing certain input combinations and their timing (e.g. bunnyhop, strafe-shooting) a bit limiting. In fact, I abhor the idea that I would need to sit in front of my computer practicing StreetFighter'esque combos for hours just to NOT suck at PS2.

I'd much rather have 'skill' in PS2 defined as knowing where and where not to go, what to bring and how to play as a team with your buddies.


It is dragging on a bit too much I will admit.

But you referencing Streetfighter is a great example of what this is all about. In that game you had 3 punches and 3 kicks, some special moves and then numerous combos and allsorts of things that gave the game incredible depth. Enough depth that, through reincarnations of that basic premise its still being played today 20 years after it came out. It was precise and rewarded practice.

If the game had been limited to just 3 punches and kicks, it would never lasted longer than a week or two.

In ps and any other fps or any game for that matter, there is a constant pull from players between the 3 punches only end and the full-on 8 hrs a day perfecting their dragon punch combo people.

There are those that just want to play the game through at level 3, that's fine. There are those that breeze through on level 8 and no longer bother and look for decent pvp to challenge them. That's fine too.

But things get screwed up when one side accuses the other of abusing mechanics by knowing when to pull off a 5 combo and blocking correctly. Their answer is to limit everyone to 3 punches so they can play on a level playing field. It's why the likes of Jimmy point out the misgivings of games like bf3 and cod.

Not ranting, just trying to put all this into context.

[JesNC]

Here's the problem with that definition of skill... those are the bare minimum qualities everyone playing the game should have. It's like multi-tasking and working well with a team being listed as qualifications on your resume; EVERYONE has or should have those qualifications just to be part of the workforce.

Real skill goes beyond working well with a team and knowing the routes, something everyone ought to do.

Right, maybe I should have phrased it better - But there's a difference between basic knowledge of teamplay and manouver and actually being skilled at it. Anyone can drive a tank and point the gun in the right direction, but it takes time and effort to learn ranges, memorize cover etc...


I just don't see ADADAD becoming a proper substitute for 'skill' in PS2.

Not ranting, just trying to put all this into context.

Thanks for your post. I can see where people are coming from now.

[Fek]

Anyone can drive a tank and point the gun in the right direction

This is completely untrue, otherwise it wouldn't be so easy to win 2on2 tank battles in PS1. You attempt to rubbish "aiming" as not actually being a real skill, yet there is clearly a very large gap between those that are good at it and those that are bad.

[Bags]

If you can't hit someone who is spamming ADADA why are you playing a shooter?

[Seagoon]

If you can't hit someone who is spamming ADADA why are you playing a shooter?

If ADAD does not impact the game in anyway when fighting skilled opponents, why do so many skilled players do it ?

[Bags]

If ADAD does not impact the game in anyway when fighting skilled opponents, why do so many skilled players do it ?

Because the netcode in PS1 is shit.

[ThermalReaper]

Because it sometimes works.

[Seagoon]

Because the netcode in PS1 is shit.

Then surely I dont need to spell out the chain of logic to prove that your post was rather pointless and simply inflammatory? :)

Anyway, where does one draw the line between exploit and 'feature'.

Im not on the side that says that every bug that can be taken advantage of is detrimental to the game, for example star craft 1's skill ceiling was segnificantly raised by the adoption of many such bugs into competitive play.

However, PS1's netcode issues were somthing that were random and could rather frequently swing a fight in one sides favour with no skill that could counter.

So, with many of the highly skilled players here having taken advantage of this issue, now claiming that they want fair play of a highly skillful nature, are the arguements here (as valid as they are) being presented to the full benifit of the game, or to produce a game that provides the perfect combination of skills to firmly sit them in their comfort zone while simultainously pushing other potential rivals out of theirs ?

EDIT: This is not an attack on anyone, just a concern that maybe, the skillful players who have the skill, experiance and intelligence to actually provide useful feedback to the developers might be a bit too focused on making the game the best enviroment for them to play and succeed rather than the best game PS2 could be.

[BillyBob]

Hah, in that case we could probably call all games dumbed down... ;)

You are exactly right there. In ArmA things still require skill and you are rewarded for learning the way ArmA works.

Sidearms are generally not used past the ranges where they are effectively accurate :) But yeah, other weapons would have their own limitations as well.

As for the remainder of your post, quite agreed with that. I see we do agree in most respects with this; With my posts I mostly just wanted to point out that he seems very much capable of finding how these important aspects show in the game and working with the general idea on how to make them feel better.

Yeah, I can certainly see where you're coming from and while our view may differ on some details, it seems to me we are generally on the same page. :)


CS is universally regarded as one of the greatest tactical team based shooters of all time (maybe XBOX kiddies and those too close-minded to recognise quality in any game except those they play disagree).

I'm sure you CS-kiddies regard it as that, but obviously REAL MEN play games like ArmA and Americas Army. :D


All the greatest FPS games have had both a high personal skill ceiling and team skill ceiling. If the original PS1 devs had taken inspiration from the gunplay of games around at the time then I reckon it would still be seriously popular today.

I totally agree about your "high personal skill ceiling", and as far as I'm concerned the high end of that skill-spectrum starts with games like ArmA, Americas Army and then moves down to BF3 and having games like CS and Unreal at the very opposite end.

My point is that this is all just about opinions...you have yours and I have mine. In the end, the only truly relevant question is: what style of gameplay will be right for PS2?

That's obviously up to the devs to decide, but I can tell you this much: If PS2 turns out as a game where bunny hopping is a viable type of gameplay and you can fire accurately from the hip at anything past 5-10 meters...let alone being able to pull off headshots from that range without having to ADS and stabilizing your aim, then I can say for a simple fact that I won't touch this game with a 5-foot pole and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. Why? Because according to my opinion such gameplay would make the game extremely dumbed-down and would not require what I consider to be proper skills.

A game putting you in a combat situation should IMO feel like a combat situation, which is what ArmA, Americas Army and yes, even BF3, does to a MUCH greater extent than CS. In fact, CS is so far removed from anything even remotely resembling a true combat situation, that you may as well be playing as an Elf or Orc equipped with magic wands...that's how close I consider it to be to 100% Fantasy. :lol:

And here's the real kicker: My viewpoint or preference is NO less valid or does NOT require any less skill than yours in ANY way whatsoever.

Please understand that simple fact and stop acting like everyone who is able to cope with these semi-realistic conditions and limitations are noobs, just because you obviously lack the skills (as I measure them) required to do so.

So, thanks for your input and have fun continuing playing "Zap the Bunny Hopping Elves" (i.e. CS)! :p

/BB

PS: Apologies for this little rant, but the obvious nonsense expressed in some posts here just can't be allowed to pass without "correction". :D

[Bags]

So, with many of the highly skilled players here having taken advantage of this issue, now claiming that they want fair play of a highly skillful nature, are the arguements here (as valid as they are) being presented to the full benifit of the game, or to produce a game that provides the perfect combination of skills to firmly sit them in their comfort zone while simultainously pushing other potential rivals out of theirs ?

I see nothing wrong with keeping a game skillful so only the skilled are good at it. Though, that won't happen because all games are being made so everyone wins now a days.

Though I do not want the PS1 netcode to return, and it isn't.

[GreatMazinkaise]

PS: Apologies for this little rant, but the obvious nonsense expressed in some posts here just can't be allowed to pass without correction.

Obvious nonsense: hitting a slow moving target with a gun that has near perfect accuracy is as skilled as hitting a fast moving target with a gun that has tolerable accuracy while also moving are equivalent in skill. That's a fallacy.

The former is not skill equivalent to the latter.

[Ratstomper]

Then surely I dont need to spell out the chain of logic to prove that your post was rather pointless and simply inflammatory? :)

Anyway, where does one draw the line between exploit and 'feature'.

Im not on the side that says that every bug that can be taken advantage of is detrimental to the game, for example star craft 1's skill ceiling was segnificantly raised by the adoption of many such bugs into competitive play.

However, PS1's netcode issues were somthing that were random and could rather frequently swing a fight in one sides favour with no skill that could counter.

So, with many of the highly skilled players here having taken advantage of this issue, now claiming that they want fair play of a highly skillful nature, are the arguements here (as valid as they are) being presented to the full benifit of the game, or to produce a game that provides the perfect combination of skills to firmly sit them in their comfort zone while simultainously pushing other potential rivals out of theirs ?

EDIT: This is not an attack on anyone, just a concern that maybe, the skillful players who have the skill, experiance and intelligence to actually provide useful feedback to the developers might be a bit too focused on making the game the best enviroment for them to play and succeed rather than the best game PS2 could be.

It's important to take design intention into account. I also use the rule that if I was in the game, would the action be effective. Taking away netcode, standing in the open and stepping side to side would get me killed. running or jumping while shooting would severely decrease my accuracy. etc.

I appreciate that you're not being condescending or malicious with your post. Its the difference between a discussion and an argument. Nothing gets solved in an argument...

[GameCobra]

Granted, i loved Unreal Tournament. The original one, and yes: Facing Worlds was fun with the gigantic towers and all =P

But my cousin enjoyed playing on the sniper servers so much. I'm trying to encourage him to play PS2 when it comes out since i'm sure he'll love sniping armies of people =P

[GuyFawkes]

Anyway, where does one draw the line between exploit and 'feature'.

So, with many of the highly skilled players here having taken advantage of this issue, now claiming that they want fair play of a highly skillful nature, are the arguements here (as valid as they are) being presented to the full benifit of the game, or to produce a game that provides the perfect combination of skills to firmly sit them in their comfort zone while simultainously pushing other potential rivals out of theirs ?



Unfortunately this is where the fact this is a MMO comes in. Things get tweaked and balanced to and fro. The dev team tries to find the right balance and will never find a point where both ends of the spectrum agree to disagree. Its a fine balance.

Same goes with the exploit and feature thing. It used to be there was no pain field in a spawn room and people would camp all day spawn camping people. It was exploiting a feature of the game. It was cheesy, but not illegal. So they added pain fields to try to discourage it.

Someone warping through a ceiling using surge pre-nerf might be put down to netcode similar to adada. I'm sure it was abused intentionally by many. But post surge nerf those that were good players were still good without it. Those that were bad and just abused a mechanic quickly exposed themselves as such.

[Peacemaker]

I wonder how long it's going to take for this thread to become post after post of "NO! Your wrong!"

[Fek]

If PS2 turns out as a game where bunny hopping is a viable type of gameplay

Someone else that clearly doesn't have a clue about one particular mechanic in one particular game in one particular engine 13 years ago but feels they are expert on it.

A game putting you in a combat situation should IMO feel like a combat situation, which is what ArmA, Americas Army and yes, even BF3 does to a MUCH greater extent than CS.

Cross posting from another thread......

BF3 | Hipfire Hero: Suppression Supreme - YouTube

Struggling to take the rest of the post seriously after that...........but will try.

as far as I'm concerned the high end of that skill-spectrum starts with games like ArmA, Americas Army and then moves down to BF3 and having games like CS and Unreal at the very opposite end.

Claiming BF3 has a higher skill ceiling than UT? Seems like a troll, but I'll bite.

In reality if you were to plot a chart with realism on the x-axis and skill on the y-axis for games that exist today, it would probably be a V-shape. Unlike you I have actually played a wide selection of fps games, including mil sims like FH2 and PR, which require high amounts of skill. Most of it is in the vast amounts of team communication and coordination required. Personally I find the extremely diminished importance of aim, reactions and the slow pace in the implementation of strategies less enjoyable than arcade games, but as you say, that's personal difference.

Failing to recognise that there is skill in arcade games such as CS, UT, Quake, BF2 etc. i.e. thinking that good aim and reactions are not real skill or that these games somehow require no teamwork or strategy, simply makes you look dumb and ignorant.

What most of the "pro-arcade" people in this thread are arguing is that they want "skill" in PS2 to encompass as many different elements as possible, ranging from second to second handling of gun all the way to the grand strategy of coordinating the actions of hundreds of players, and everything in between.

[Ratstomper]

I wonder how long it's going to take for this thread to become post after post of "NO! Your wrong!"

I hope it's dying down now. I didn't mean to start a debacle, I just saw a fight that needed to be picked. oops:

[zomg]

http://jjh.fi/p/diagram.jpg

I'm just going to leave this here.

[BillyBob]

Obvious nonsense: hitting a slow moving target with a gun that has near perfect accuracy is as skilled as hitting a fast moving target with a gun that has tolerable accuracy while are equivalent in skill. That's a fallacy.

The former is not skill equivalent to the latter.

Obvious nonsense: Your attempt at comparison by overly simplifying the conditions and variables involved. That's a fallacy.

- What is a "slow" or "fast" moving target compared to what?

- What is "near perfect accuracy" or "tolerable accuracy" compared to what?

Allow me to make a valid yet simple comparison for you:

The actual skill required in a game like ArmA is NO less than the skill required in CS. The focus on what type of skills are most important is merely different.

Hope that helped! :)

/BB

[Seagoon]

I see nothing wrong with keeping a game skillful so only the skilled are good at it. Though, that won't happen because all games are being made so everyone wins now a days.

Though I do not want the PS1 netcode to return, and it isn't.

And it is indeed vital to ensure PS2 has a very high skill ceiling.
However, which skilled players should it be designed for ?

Should it be designed for the players who promote twitch gameplay and movement based skills over any others? Or should it be designed with the skilled players who can lead squads with the presicion of IRL SWAT teams ?

Now, my personal thoughts on this matter are that since planetside is a rather special FPS which combines almost every FPS related skill under one roof, that planetside 2 should have an equal focus on all the major ones.

For example: A squad of average twitch skilled players who work together perfectly with advanced tactics and strategy should be equal in a fight to a squad of players with elite twitch skills but only average tactical skill and coordination.

A FPS with a good combination of all skills is 'greater than the sum of its parts' and has a skill ceiling far higher than any that combine these skills but fail to promote them equally.

I get the feeling that many of the more skilled and influential players here might be missing that point. The best thing for PS2 is to produce a game that alows as many different skills to shine as possible. Even if it means potentially sacrificing their chances at personal heroism.

And if they are not skilled in all of these, instead of campaigning to change the game to suit them, maybe they should try branching out and improving the skills outside their personal comfort zone to not only improve themselves as gamers, but also to help PS2 become a better game itself because of it.

[Fek]

http://jjh.fi/p/diagram.jpg

I'm just going to leave this here.

Quake little tactics? CS little tactics? What a stupid graph.

ESL Classics: Rapha vs. Cooller - YouTube

Whoever made that graph probably thinks the people in this video are just running about randomly. In reality they know the map inside out, they know every single spawn, every single line of sight and every single movement they make is a carefully calculated piece of strategy to get the advantage on their opponent. Don't expect to understand what exactly that advantage is though if you have never played the game.

[zomg]

It's obviously not accurate (it's more about the relation of the three, not absolute) but can you really say Quake involves more tactics than CS? Or that CS involves more tactical gameplay than ArmA? I could have made Quake require 0 tactics, but as you can see, I didn't.

I'm sure if you actually spent a moment thinking about it you would understand it instead of just spouting angrily at whatever. Feel absolutely free to improve it - At least I'm trying to make a useful contribution instead of just raging randomly.

[AzK]

Quake little tactics? CS little tactics? What a stupid graph.

Quake3 Classics HD - WCG 2002 Zero4 vs Cooller 1/4 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRweZDOaBaQ)

Whoever made that graph probably thinks the people in this video are just running about randomly. In reality they know the map inside out, they know every single spawn, every single line of sight and every single movement they make is a carefully calculated piece of strategy to get the advantage on their opponent. Don't expect to understand what exactly that advantage is though if you have never played the game.

People claiming games like ut or quake have little or no tactics involved are simply ignorant on the subject. Holding the map, the power ups, and picking your fight when yours and your opponent's placement favor you was a big if not bigger part of the skill required to be not good but great at those games.

A complete ut/quake player can hold a map and pick his fight in order to get stats like 40/0 in a dm with like 16 people on the map. A player who only has aim and twitch reflexes maybe will still win but with a score of 40/40 or the likes, and when i played ut professionaly i considered those people bad players, as did everyone else who was playing competitively.

That was a solo dm / duel example, but make no mistake it's just as important in tdm games where you also add the "coordinating with your team" factor of who holds what areas/weapons etc.

Saying games like ut or quake required no coordination, situational awareness or tactical thinking is an ignorant claim and it really infuriates me. If anything, they required them just the same, while at the same time being much harder on the aim/twitch/movement level.

Edit: something i just noticed watching that vid and is just a tiny example, after the encounter at 2.13 the decision by the guy to damage himself (cause he was on 100hp) in order to be able to steal the 50hp up and deny it to the opponent. But yeah, games like q3 are just about flying around mashing spacebar amirite? And btw, if you move around mashing the spacebar you won't move like they are doing, it's actually a very precise thing to do and it requires moving your mouse too left and right at a certain rythm or it doesn't work.

[BillyBob]

Claiming BF3 has a higher skill ceiling than UT? Seems like a troll, but I'll bite.

In reality if you were to plot a chart with realism on the x-axis and skill on the y-axis for games that exist today, it would probably be a V-shape. Unlike you I have actually played a wide selection of fps games, including mil sims like FH2 and PR, which require high amounts of skill. Most of it is in the vast amounts of team communication and coordination required. Personally I find the extremely diminished importance of aim, reactions and the slow pace in the implementation of strategies less enjoyable than arcade games, but as you say, that's personal difference.

Failing to recognise that there is skill in arcade games such as CS, UT, Quake, BF2 etc. i.e. thinking that good aim and reactions are not real skill or that these games somehow require no teamwork or strategy, simply makes you look dumb and ignorant.

What most of the "pro-arcade" people in this thread are arguing is that they want "skill" in PS2 to encompass as many different elements as possible, ranging from second to second handling of gun all the way to the grand strategy of the entire faction and everything in between.

I'm no more of a troll than you are, I clearly pointed out this was my personal opinion.

You seem to have completely missed my whole point, which is that what skill is and what requires skill is simply a matter of opinion.

Post all you want and bring up a million examples and diagrams, it still won't change the fact that my viewpoint is EXACTLY as valid as yours.

Yes, I consider CS to be dumbed-down and games like ArmA to require more skill according to how I measure and appreciated it, and you can never prove me wrong.

Equally, you're fully entitled to your opinion and you are of course free to express it openly, but when calling people noobs you need to realize, that in the eyes of a hardcore ArmA player, you would be considered just as much of a "noob" yourself.

What I object to, is when you and others like you pretend like your opinion is the "right" one or the "pro" one and anyone who differs in opinion is a "noob"...or even worse, a "troll".

Now, I made the "CS-kiddie" comment to make an example of this exact fact, that being a "noob" is a relative term.

So, please...don't pretend like you or your opinion is any better, more "professional" or more "skillful" because that's not the case.

There is no such thing, and neither you nor I can decide which is "best" for SOE. All we can do is hope that PS2 will turn out to be a game that we'll enjoy to play.

I'm guessing you obviously wish for a more twitch-based CS-like gameplay, perhaps with constant accurate hip-firing and bunny hopping.

To me, any such mechanics would make the game pretty much unplayable, as it's far too alien to what I consider a good combat experience in a game and I would personally consider it to be overly-simplified and yes, dumbed-down.

We simply have completely different opinions of what we feel PS2 should be, but the reality is, it's completely out of our hands and arguing about what proper "skill" is or isn't doesn't help anyone.

So, let's just wait and see and if it turns out like I wish for, in which case I'll enjoy it...or if it turns out like you wish for, in which case I'll just not play it. Simple as that.

Good luck! :)

/BB

[Seagoon]

Saying games like ut or quake required no coordination, situational awareness or tactical thinking is an ignorant claim and it really infuriates me. If anything, they required them just the same, while at the same time being much harder on the aim/twitch/movement level.

So tactical thinking, situational awareness and coordination are a constant while aim/twitch/movement are a variable when considering the differences between games ?

Is that not in and of itself rather an ignorant claim?

[AzK]

So tactical thinking, situational awareness and coordination are a constant while aim/twitch/movement are a variable when considering the differences between games ?

Is that not in and of itself rather an ignorant claim?

You can't possibly think to compare the aim/twich/movement skill required to play a game like ut or quake to the aim/twich/movement skill required to play a game where people are 1) much slower 2) are basically ALWAYS still or turretting prone or in ads mode when shooting each others, and 3)weapons have random factors not controlled by players.

It is quite obvious that the former type of games have a much higher skillcap when it comes to the aim/twich/movement personal level of the player. It's just the way it is, i'm sorry.

So to answer your question yes, tactical thinking and situational awareness are a constant, the actual gameplay mechanics aren't. And games like ut or quake have a much higher skillcap in that regard as opposed to "camper" games.

[Ratstomper]

...and when i played ut professionaly i considered those people bad players...

...it's actually a very precise thing to do and it requires moving your mouse too left and right at a certain rythm or it doesn't work.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/200/420/BRTky.jpg?1321408042g

EDIT: Although, I would like to thank you for proving the point that e-sports/professional gaming and boring nonsense have some overlap.

[Seagoon]

snip

No offence but I would stop digging if I were you :P

[Ratstomper]

No offence but I would stop digging if I were you :P

C'mon. This whole discussion has gotten WAY out of hand. I brought up CS and cheap mechanics because they were relevant to the man that SOE hired. I think all this comparing games from 10+ years ago has no bearing on PS2, especially considering we aren't even talking about PS2 anymore, which wasn't even the topic to begin with....

EDIT: I should say, cheap tactics aren't relevant to Mr Wisenhunt, but they're relevant to CS.

EDIT2: As for the whole argument, I've got nothing against professional gamers. I've got a problem when they try to bring the professional gamer mindset into every other non-professional game. The vast majority of players aren't "pro" and they aren't going to want to go through all the same conditioning some e-sports person does. Don't ruin it for everyone, man. We're here to have fun.

[AzK]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/200/420/BRTky.jpg?1321408042g

EDIT: Although, I would like to thank you for proving the point that e-sports/professional gaming and boring nonsense have some overlap.

It's not really surprising at all that among all the valid, unattackable points i've made in that reply you decided to bolden out a minor detail in the attempt to look smart or something, and put some meme face in there just to be cool.

You "boldened" it out, not me, it was simply a short part of my life i was 12 till 14 or so and i enjoyed it, getting paid to play ut duels and tdm was fun, unfortunately the game didn't have a very long lifespan on the gaming scene and basically my whole clan moved to q3 which i didn't like as much and couldn't be arsed to learn at high levels, moreso because the game had been out for 2-3 years while i had been playing ut only, and there were people who had instead been playing q3 since release, obviously, whereas i would have been starting from scratch.

That 12 years old kid had more sense and understanding of gaming mechanics into him than you do now.
And he still does, even if he's older.

[Ratstomper]

It's not really surprising at all that among all the valid, unattackable points i've made in that reply you decided to bolden out a minor detail in the attempt to look smart or something, and put some meme face in there just to be cool.

You "boldened" it out, not me, it was simply a short part of my life i was 12 till 14 or so and i enjoyed it, getting paid to play ut duels and tdm was fun, unfortunately the game didn't have a very long lifespan on the gaming scene and basically my whole clan moved to q3 which i didn't like as much and couldn't be arsed to learn at high levels, moreso because the game had been out for a couple years while i had been playing ut only, and there were people who had instead been playing q3 since release, obviously, whereas i would have been starting from scratch.

That 12 years old kid had more understanding of gaming mechanics than you do now.
And he still does to this day, even if he's older.

that kid had more understanding of gaming mechanics relating to that game than I do now. And that's fine. PS2 isn't that game. The fact that you didn't want to move to another game specifically because you would have to start from scratch to learn to be effective shows the very point I was trying to make. Not everyone has the same aspirations for gaming that you do. some of us don't have the time or patience for those kinds of games. Don't try to make PS2 one of those games, please.

I may have been out of line with the attitude, but I'm tired of arguing a moot point in a thread that isn't designed for it.


EDIT2: As for the whole argument, I've got nothing against professional gamers. I've got a problem when they try to bring the professional gamer mindset into every other non-professional game. The vast majority of players aren't "pro" and they aren't going to want to go through all the same conditioning some e-sports person does just to have fun. Don't ruin it for everyone, man. We're here to have fun.

[AzK]

Personally, i don't think ps2 will ever be e-sport material, it's just not the type of game suited for it. It will have some outfit wars type events (maybe even at some live event) but nobody will really care about them aside from the hardcore community or maybe even just aside the very people involved (as it happened in ps1)

Why? It's just not that type of game, it's a game made to play as an mmo, with loads of players, unbalanced teams, and a ridiculous amount of variable odds that simply do not fit competitive play.

That however doesn't mean the game needs to be a "lobotomized friendly" title as cod or bf3 where the skillcap doesn't even reach my ankle, and good players have no real way to actually show how good they are compared to the average joe who just wants to have fun.

[Ratstomper]

Personally, i don't think ps2 will ever be e-sport material, it's just not the type of game suited for it. It will have some outfit wars type events (maybe even at some live event) but nobody will really care about them aside from the hardcore community or maybe even just aside the very people involved (as it happened in ps1)

Why? It's just not that type of game, it's a game made to play as an mmo, with loads of players, unbalanced teams, and a ridiculous amount of variable odds that simply do not fit competitive play.

That however doesn't mean the game needs to be a "lobotomized friendly" title as cod or bf3 where the skillcap doesn't even reach my ankle, and good players have no real way to actually show how good they are compared to the average joe who just wants to have fun.

:rolleyes:

We've all described ways PS2 will take skill besides what you personally think skill is, because you come from a different gaming background. I'm done. This is a pointless discussion.

I'm just hoping adding Wisenhunt to the team won't make a game series that isn't a twitchy shooter into a twitchy shooter. I don't think it will, but it might. If it does, I'll get used to it or I just won't run around in firefights.

[AzK]

that kid had more understanding of gaming mechanics relating to that game than I do now. And that's fine. PS2 isn't that game. The fact that you didn't want to move to another game specifically because you would have to start from scratch to learn to be effective shows the very point I was trying to make.

You didn't make any point, i didn't say i didn't play q3, i just said i didn't play it professionaly as i knew it was not a realistic option for me at the time, that didn't stop me from playing the game normally though, and being far better than average. If i were you, i probably wouldn't have played at all because the thought about facing people more "trained" than me and that i couldn't have beaten no matter what, would have been unacceptable. I'll tell you an amazing secret, even when/if you do play professionally, there's always going someone better than you sooner or later.

So, with that in mind, having the fact that "there's gonna be pro people in a game that are going to be better than you" sap your will to play/enjoy something is a bit laughable.

[ODonnell]

I just don't see PS2 being an e-sports type event. Neuter team sizes down and maybe it could, but from a team oriented standpoint you are looking at needing much higher payouts to be worth competing. If you could swing that then maybe you could starting talking about it being an esports event.

[Ratstomper]

You didn't make any point, i didn't say i didn't play q3, i just said i didn't play it professionaly as i knew it was not a realistic option for me at the time, that didn't stop me from playing the game normally though, and being far better than average. If i were you, i probably wouldn't have played at all because the thought about facing people more "trained" than me and that i couldn't have beaten no matter what, would have been unacceptable. I'll tell you an amazing secret, even when/if you do play professionally, there's always going someone better than you sooner or later.

So, with that in mind, having the fact that "there's gonna be pro people in a game that are going to be better than you" sap your will to play/enjoy something is a bit laughable.

No. You openly proclaim that arcade shooters have some semblance of skill based on tactics (which noone is arguing with), but that the true skill of that game comes from being able to "aim" and move correctly (noone is arguing that either). What is laughable is that you refuse to admit that for a game like PS2, the opposite is true; the major skill being placed on tactics and the shooter aspect being a second (and therefor more basic). That doesn't mean the game takes no skill, it means it requires a different skillset than what you're used to. PS2 looks like PS1 with some updated FPS features and that's exactly how it should be.

Now, for the sake of the topic at hand, can we just drop this?

[Seagoon]

You can't possibly think to compare the aim/twich/movement skill required to play a game like ut or quake to the aim/twich/movement skill required to play a game where people are 1) much slower 2) are basically ALWAYS still or turretting prone or in ads mode when shooting each others, and 3)weapons have random factors not controlled by players.

It is quite obvious that the former type of games have a much higher skillcap when it comes to the aim/twich/movement personal level of the player. It's just the way it is, i'm sorry.


Well you can certainly compare them, but aim/twitch/movement skill are a bit more complicated than they seem, they are not skills in and of themselves but actually packages of more specific skills that are combined together to make discussion of them easier, however it mus allways be in mind that they are not the same packages depending on what game is being played.

For example, aiming in a game with hitscan weapons is a different package of skills compared to aiming in a game that takes into account bullet drop and projectile velocity. Infact, this can be broken down by weapon choice as well within the game, a hit scan weapon has a lower overall skill ceiling than a weapon which has projectile velocity.

As to if I can say which games have the higher overall skill cap, that depends on the games in question, you talk about UT and quake, but never mention a game to compare them with, I presume you mean BF3 or CS or ARMA?

Honestly, with out playing them side by side for a period of time, I could not give a good answer. I would say that BF3 indeed does have a lower skill cap as far as aiming goes, movement for sure as well, but twitch I would say is about the same, BF3 benifits from twitch just as much as UT does.

I could spend ages going through which is better and which is worse and why and how they are different, but its not very important I dont think.
Im not defending or advocating any of these games.


So to answer your question yes, tactical thinking and situational awareness are a constant, the actual gameplay mechanics aren't. And games like ut or quake have a much higher skillcap in that regard as opposed to "camper" games.

Now this is more important, it has direct implications for PS2.

I can say that the idea that between any two games named, they will have the same skill cap in tactical thinking, situational awareness and coordination is just silly.

Compare Project Reality (a BF2 total conversion*) to UT, project reality is a game involving combined arms gameplay (Air, Armour and infantry) as well as logistics/support opperations and a heavy focus on large scale (64 to 200+ player) battles coordinated via a command chain. It is silly to think that Project Reality is as tactically or strategically simplistic as a UT 1 v 1 match. The situational awareness also blows UT out of the water, having to keep track of not only the other members in your squad, but also the positons of a wide variety of different unit types across a 4KM square map which could even be a largely urban enviroment, its again rather silly to presume that this game is on equal grounds with UT as far as situational awareness goes.

Now this is not me stating that UT does not require any tactics, it does, but the over all skill cap for these things is lower than it is for Project Reality or simmilar games.

All skills are created equal, the only thing that decides otherwise is the games design itself. PS2 has the potential to alow for a high skill cap in all of these skills, and as I said before, the more skills you have to master, the higher the over all skill cap is AND if the skills are equally promoted with in the game design, it produces a game with a skill cap that exceeds the sum of its parts.

With this in mind, we should be aiming for PS2 to no promote any one set of FPS skills, but all of them for the betterment of PS2 and for the betterment of ourselves as competitive players, the more skills we master, the better we are, no denying that.

* dont let the battlefield heritage fool you, this game is almost entirely different, hence the total conversion title, it even has modified what it can of the engine to produce gameplay of its own. It has far more depth than any real BF title ever had.

EDIT: sorry for the bad structure and spelling.

[Pyreal]

I'm glad Jimmy is on the team!

I was gunning in the Mag last night, and with all the pewpew I couldn't even tell if I was firing or EMPed!

The discharge sound is like a bug hitting a zapper outside the window.

[Otleaz]

It wasn't a player attack, i was merely stating a fact that emerged from the guy repeatedly self owning reply after reply, in a funny way. Being a bad or average player isn't something someone should feel insulted for, i don't have a problem with bad players, i even help them if i can, but when on top of being bad they act all arrogant and shit, pretending to know about stuff they clearly don't, then they're annoying. I merely called the guy out on his bs.

He on the other hand, not being able to reply anything relevant on the matter, because there wasn't really anything he could have said in reply, went on on attacking me for my faction and assuming on things i never even discussed in this thread (tr being easy mode compared to nc or whatever).

The difference between the 2 "attacks" is simple. And that's not counting that the former was based on reality while the latter completely made up.

It wasn't irrelevant at all. I was implying that it is typical of NC players to think something works because it takes skill when it doesn't. Bunny hopping might be a valid tactic in a LAN game, but in online play it is simply exploiting and bad game design.

You keep calling me bad if you like, but it is hard for me to take someone who is obviously in denial seriously. You fit in with the NC quite well.

[Ratstomper]

With this in mind, we should be aiming for PS2 to no promote any one set of FPS skills, but all of them for the betterment of PS2 and for the betterment of ourselves as competitive players, the more skills we master, the better we are, no denying that.

EDIT: sorry for the bad structure and spelling.

You're fine. It was legible and made a lot of sense. My only concern with twitchy gameplay (one of the aforementioned styles of FPS) isn't the typical 90% of twitch type gameplay, it's the 10% that takes a lot of tedious practice to be good with (wisenhunt used the example of practicing for inordinate amounts of time to sidestep perfectly). At what point do you alienate part of your potentially paying fanbase because one of the aspects of the game is something that wasn't necessarily intended by the devs, but is being used to great effect and the average player doesn't have the time or patience to dedicate hours to tedious practicing? At what point does it start being detrimental to the game as a whole? At what point does the game stop being a game and start being a job?

You fit in with the NC quite well.

Easy, tiger.

We're a little beyond poking fun about faction loyalty.

[Otleaz]

Easy, tiger.

We're a little beyond poking fun about faction loyalty.

It is hard not to when almost every NC player follows their stereotype like it is the bible.

[AzK]

No. You openly proclaim that arcade shooters have some semblance of skill based on tactics (which noone is arguing with), but that the true skill of that game comes from being able to "aim" and move correctly (noone is arguing that either). What is laughable is that you refuse to admit that for a game like PS2, the opposite is true; the major skill being placed on tactics and the shooter aspect being a second (and therefor more basic). That doesn't mean the game takes no skill, it means it requires a different skillset than what you're used to. PS2 looks like PS1 with some updated FPS features and that's exactly how it should be.

Now, for the sake of the topic at hand, can we just drop this?

First of all, i didn't say that being able to aim and move corrently is the true skill factor of those games (ut/quake/etc), if anything i said that it's just as important as the tactical aspect, and then i proceeded to say that however, the aim and movement factor in those games has a far higher skillcap compared to "camper" shooters, which is also undeniable. That's what i said.

You see, what you don't seem to understand/know about my "personal skill set" is that i have both. In ps1 i relied more on tactical awareness, not dying, and playing the situations to my advantage, the more odds i could stack in my favor the better, people hated me and called me lame or even a shit player for that. The game was no quake (post surge nerf) and you couldn't exactly single handedly face to face gun down people 1v10 anymore so i stopped doing that when it was no longer possible.

Yeah, tactics probably played a bigger role than aim in ps1, but not to the point that a terrible player could kill a very good one hands down. Which is what happens in games like cod or bf3.

And more importantly, a player that only has tactics on his side, will lose against another who has tactics (knows what he should be doing) + is also skilled (is actually able to do what he knows he should be doing, in a successful way).

I don't want to play a game where bad people are rewarded just because they know what they should be doing. They also need to be proficient at doing it.

A gunplay that tends to bf3's direction, makes the actual execution of what you're doing almost irrelevant, and that is BAD gameplay design. And that is why i'd rather push for the total opposite.

[Zar]

I've been posting and ghosting this thread for a bit now and what i find funny is even if this game had some sort of e sport not a soul would care minus the 6-15 fellow's here pushing it *choice A*: join a battle with 2000 people with open ended Massive open world combat with tanks and air craft. *Choice B*: play in a 1 mile by 1 mile box with 16-32-64 people with limited tanks and aircraft..... >.> <.< ill take choice A!

[Bags]

It is hard not to when almost every NC player follows their stereotype like it is the bible.

The NC has a stereotype?

[SKYeXile]

I doubt PS2 will ever be an Esport, if it want to be that there would need to be whole other game modes and maps designed especially for it with little bearing on how the rest of PS2 played, so they would have to make it another game mode for people to practise. PS2 can defiantly be competitive, but not an esport.

[Otleaz]

The NC has a stereotype?

Yes, you could point them out quite easily even if their icon wasn't in the top right of their posts.

[Zar]

The NC has a stereotype?
rebellious nature and problem's with authority?

[AzK]

It wasn't irrelevant at all. I was implying that it is typical of NC players to think something works because it takes skill when it doesn't. Bunny hopping might be a valid tactic in a LAN game, but in online play it is simply exploiting and bad game design.

You keep calling me bad if you like, but it is hard for me to take someone who is obviously in denial seriously. You fit in with the NC quite well.

Bunny hopping doesn't have anything to do with ping and netcode, also, battlefield games don't have bunny hopping, that's right, none of them does. While you seem to think they do, since you mentioned 2142, so forgive me if it is I who have troubles taking you seriously.

[Bags]

Yes, you could point them out quite easily even if their icon wasn't in the top right of their posts.

Doubtful as I was a TR main in PS1. My highest level character and only CR5 is TR. ;)

rebellious nature and problem's with authority?

I didn't pick NC for PS2 based on the game's terrible lore, I picked NC because they look the best this time IMO. the NC could be terrorists who murdered babies for shits n giggles in the lore and I wouldn't have cared.

[Zar]

Bunny hopping doesn't have anything to do with ping and netcode, also, battlefield games don't have bunny hopping, that's right, none of them does. While you seem to think they do, since you mentioned 2142, so forgive me if it is I who have troubles taking you seriously.
they don't O.O huh what the hell have i been playing then that's called bf2 bf 2142 and bf3 >.> someone should let dice know some group of people is running using their games name and making it look bad O.O

[AzK]

stuff

You're mentioning vehicles and logistics, none of them have anything to do with the gunplay being discussed here, if a liberator flies over a guy in open space and bombs him, it doesn't matter if the guy's crosshair has pinpoint accuracy while running, jumping, or sliding. It doesn't matter if the guy can sprint, bunnyhop or strafe/circle jump, he'll still get oneshot by the bombs.

And it's perfectly fine, nobody is complaining about that or wants that changed. But say those guys in the lib are actually terrible on foot and get owned 3v1 because that person on foot is actually amazing and can use a deep gunplay mechanic to its fullest. Suddenly those people who got owned 3v1 feel entitled to complain and say that a turretting ads mechanic would be more skilled for infantry combat ..... riiiiiight. :rolleyes:

[Sledgecrushr]

I just don't see PS2 being an e-sports type event. Neuter team sizes down and maybe it could, but from a team oriented standpoint you are looking at needing much higher payouts to be worth competing. If you could swing that then maybe you could starting talking about it being an esports event.

You know Ive been explaining how esports could work within the existing(as I understand it) framework of PS2 for a couple of days now.
-the format that traditional esports has run with will have to be changed
-accept that the gamefield will not be balanced

What Im thinking of are small squads competing against each other to achieve objectives in the game world. Similar to I guess the mission system but with the best fps players in the world. Achieve the objective within the parameters set up by that particular esport game and win prizes. Fail and you go home with nothing.

[SKYeXile]

It wasn't irrelevant at all. I was implying that it is typical of NC players to think something works because it takes skill when it doesn't. Bunny hopping might be a valid tactic in a LAN game, but in online play it is simply exploiting and bad game design.

You keep calling me bad if you like, but it is hard for me to take someone who is obviously in denial seriously. You fit in with the NC quite well.

this song was made because of people like you:

Hypermatrix Song - YouTube

[AzK]

they don't O.O huh what the hell have i been playing then that's called bf2 bf 2142 and bf3 >.> someone should let dice know some group of people is running using their games name and making it look bad O.O

Yeah, bunny hopping doesn't exist in the bf franchise, people refer to other people sprinting and jumping as bunny hopping when they just want to try an additional whine/excuse in there because they couldn't hit the person.

What REAL quake/cs bunnyhop/strafejump does is make you gain momentum/speed as you carefully jump while strafing left and right while also making subtle mouse movements, it requires precision, if you're good at it you can even achieve longer distance jumps from a standing position without needing to run first, and i'm positive bf games do not have that mechanic.

Also, strafe jumping / bunny hopping, has absolutely nothing to do with latency and has 0 effects on how hard a target is to hit, except well the obvious fact that the target would be moving faster or in less predictable way.

People on bf just get enraged at people sprinting and jumping because the hitboxes mess up and it's harder to get headshots, it's still VERY possible to hit them and kill them though, it's not like they become immaterial or something... still that doesn't have anything to do with bunnyhopping.

Hope that cleared things up for people using the wrong terms for different things!

[Zar]

You're mentioning vehicles and logistics, none of them have anything to do with the gunplay being discussed here, if a liberators flies over a guy in open space and bombs him, it doesn't matter if the guy's crosshair has pinpoint accuracy while running, jumping, or sliding. It doesn't matter if the guy can spring, bunnyhop of strafe/circle jump, he'll still get oneshot by the bombs.

And it's perfectly fine, nobody is complaining about that or wants that changed. But say those guys in the lib are actually terrible on foot and get owned 3v1 because that person on foot is actually amazing and can use a deep gunplay mechanic to its fullest. Suddenly those people who got owned 3v1 feel entitled to complain and say that a turretting ads mechanic would be more skilled for infantry combat ..... riiiiiight. :rolleyes: considering bullet's bounce off aircraft and tank's like they are paper xD inless that guy has a rocket launcher were pretty safe on this one xD

[Zar]

Yeah, bunny hopping doesn't exist in the bf franchise, people refer to other people sprinting and jumping as bunny hopping when they just want to try an additional whine/excuse in there because they couldn't hit the person.

What REAL quake/cs bunnyhop/strafejump does is make you gain momentum/speed as you carefully jump while strafing left and right while also making subtle mouse movements, it requires precision, if you're good at it you can even achieve longer distance jumps from a standing position without needing to run first, and i'm positive bf games do not have that mechanic. ah what we have here is a simple different point of few i for one think *bunny hopping* means you jump up and down like a *bunny* while shooting till the guy on the other end is dead now what you think my might differ and that's cool world is full of people with different perspectives make's the world less boring.

[Saerain]

As an aspiring creative director: it gives me hope that someone can be hired to the position of Senior Game Designer without design experience.

But as a player: what?

[Ratstomper]

First of all, i didn't say that being able to aim and move corrently is the true skill factor of those games (ut/quake/etc), if anything i said that it's just as important as the tactical aspect, and then i proceeded to say that however, the aim and movement factor in those games has a far higher skillcap compared to "camper" shooters, which is also undeniable. That's what i said.

You see, what you don't seem to understand/know about my "personal skill set" is that i have both. In ps1 i relied more on tactical awareness, not dying, and playing the situations to my advantage, the more odds i could stack in my favor the better, people hated me and called me lame or even a shit player for that. The game was no quake (post surge nerf) and you couldn't exactly single handedly face to face gun down people 1v10 anymore so i stopped doing that when it was no longer possible.

Yeah, tactics probably played a bigger role than aim in ps1, but not to the point that a terrible player could kill a very good one hands down. Which is what happens in games like cod or bf3.

And more importantly, a player that only has tactics on his side, will lose against another who has tactics (knows what he should be doing) + is also skilled (is actually able to do what he knows he should be doing, in a successful way).

I don't want to play a game where bad people are rewarded just because they know what they should be doing. They also need to be proficient at doing it.

A gunplay that tends to bf3's direction, makes the actual execution of what you're doing almost irrelevant, and that is BAD gameplay design. And that is why i'd rather push for the total opposite.

And I never said that a player shouldn't know how to do their job. In fact, what I said was that the hours and hours of practicing something inane like sidestepping should be spent learning to master the content the game devs provided instead. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. However, I'm speaking out against the petty little exploits that people employ to get an easy upper hand against someone else. Clipping, diving, bunny hopping, etc. are things that the average person will want nothing to do with and they shouldn't, because doing those things are stupid, not conducive to fun gameplay and are blatant abuse of mechanisms. THOSE have nothing to do with aim, reaction, tactics or any combination of the three.

Should a sniper put the time in to learn how to snipe? Absolutely, if he wants to be a good sniper he better, but it should be by using it while he plays the actual game and has fun doing it.

And it's perfectly fine, nobody is complaining about that or wants that changed. But say those guys in the lib are actually terrible on foot and get owned 3v1 because that person on foot is actually amazing and can use a deep gunplay mechanic to its fullest. Suddenly those people who got owned 3v1 feel entitled to complain and say that a turretting ads mechanic would be more skilled for infantry combat ..... riiiiiight. :rolleyes:

I don't see that happening in PS2 in relation to gun handling. I DO see a good infantryman using cover and positioning to win a 3v1 against people who aren't as able to think tactically and if that's the case they the guy won fair and square. What probably shouldn't happen is someone wining a 1v3 going toe-to-toe without getting behind cover and using only his gun. That shows a blatant design flaw....unless the three guys just can't aim worth crap.

[Otleaz]

Bunny hopping doesn't have anything to do with ping and netcode, also, battlefield games don't have bunny hopping, that's right, none of them does. While you seem to think they do, since you mentioned 2142, so forgive me if it is I who have troubles taking you seriously.

The one who has been bitching about semantics this entire time has trouble taking me seriously?

Jumping messes with people with high ping in almost every game. The only ones it works in are games meant for jumping.

[Seagoon]

I suspect a lot of people don't like the e-sports/skill etc. talk because they aren't up for a stressful experience. The higher you get on the ladder, the more stressful things become. If you play for money, things get even more stressful. That stress can kill the fun, if fun is what you play for.

...snip...


This is one of the many difficulties a games designer faces, how to provide a high skill cap while also mantaining the 'easy to learn hard to master' gameplay mantra.
However, we are in luck afaik, from the gameplay at E3, it seems that the players there, who had just started playing PS2 for the first time ever seemed to pick up the basics very easily, even though im sure they were pointed in the right direction to begin with.

Somthing to remember though is that PS is a game where you dont have to play at the highest level to compete. Im sure this will be the same in PS2 as PS1, this is because the competitive elite players who play at a level where this stressful stuff is important are out numbered by quite a large ammount by normal players. Most of the time you will face other casual players so you have plenty of chance to get a good few kills in against players of your own level before running into one that takes the game srsly.

You're fine. It was legible and made a lot of sense. My only concern with twitchy gameplay (one of the aforementioned styles of FPS) isn't the typical 90% of twitch type gameplay, it's the 10% that takes a lot of tedious practice to be good with (wisenhunt used the example of practicing for inordinate amounts of time to sidestep perfectly). At what point do you alienate part of your potentially paying fanbase because one of the aspects of the game is something that wasn't necessarily intended by the devs, but is being used to great effect and the average player doesn't have the time or patience to dedicate hours to tedious practicing? At what point does it start being detrimental to the game as a whole? At what point does the game stop being a game and start being a job?

Well I sorta answered this above. But the key thing to remember is that much of what makes a competitive player 'the best' is not required to complete the objectives or compete at the most basic level.

For example, there are many many players of CS who dont know the specifics of how to move and fire each of the weapons to be competitive at a high level, but they still can save the hostages or plant the bomb and have a good game against other players of their (low) skill level with out these high level details becoming an issue.

Eventually every player has to decide for themselves how much they want to put into the game in terms of effort. You cant expect a player who puts little effort into the game to be competitive against a player who puts a moderate ammount of effort in, this is basically what dumbing down a game is all about, evening out the skill level of players so the more numerous (lower skilled players) can feel like they are being 1337 and awesome and thus stay playing the game for longer (and have more brand loyalty and more chance of buying DLC etc).

Its impossible to make a good game and not have a point where a (normal) player has to say to themselves, 'this is as much effort as im willing to put into the game, and thus the skill level I will stick at'. PS2 is a good game in this respect as there is so many different things to do and experiance that a player wont burn out on these sorts of realisations too easily.

[SKYeXile]

The one who has been bitching about semantics this entire time has trouble taking me seriously?

Jumping messes with people with high ping in almost every game. The only ones it works in are games meant for jumping.

Explain how, id be interested know.

[Otleaz]

Explain how, id be interested know.

To be honest, I don't know exactly how. I have only experienced it first hand. 10-20 ping and you can hit someone who is jumping quite easily. With 100-150 ping, the majority of your bullets go through them, even when compensating for lag.

I'm sure I could find the exact reason if I worked on the network stuff for the game.

[AzK]

To Otleaz and to a lesser extent, Zar:

I'm NOT arguing semantics, bunnyhopping is actually a GAMING TERM used to indicate a movement technique used in some shooters (usually with quake engine) where the player gains speed and air control by jumping and strafing properly.

So Otleaz, you're using a word, thinking it means something, when it means something else, that's not semantics. Know you words before you use them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hopping

In the Battlefield series

Traditional bunny hopping (gaining continually increasing speed during repeated jumps) has never been possible within the Battlefield series.

The term is most used in first-person shooters to refer to act of pressing the jump key while holding crouch and a movement key to move faster (especially when going down a slope) and/or to evade attacks more effectively. In several games based on Quake engines or their derivatives moving in a zigzag[2] pattern while bunny hopping (see strafejumping) is the fastest way to move around and increases length of jumps, making the player an even more difficult target. While a zigzag movement pattern may not be the fastest way to get from one point to another in other games, players may feel that the protection provided by bunny hopping more than compensates for this disadvantage. Bunny hopping might also be required to gain speed to perform a trick jump or to provide better movement control while in mid-air (especially after performing a trick jump).

Some people have indeed started to let it slide and refer to battlefield sprint jumping as bunny hopping but that's just because people are dumb and they kept bashing their heads on a brick wall till the wall collapsed. Pretty much the same as with grammar where most people nowadays let the "it's its and they're their theyre" go unpunished in non formal writing. It's still ignorant and wrong though.

Know your words, son.

[Ratstomper]

This is one of the many difficulties a games designer faces, how to provide a high skill cap while also mantaining the 'easy to learn hard to master' gameplay mantra.
However, we are in luck afaik, from the gameplay at E3, it seems that the players there, who had just started playing PS2 for the first time ever seemed to pick up the basics very easily, even though im sure they were pointed in the right direction to begin with.

Somthing to remember though is that PS is a game where you dont have to play at the highest level to compete. Im sure this will be the same in PS2 as PS1, this is because the competitive elite players who play at a level where this stressful stuff is important are out numbered by quite a large ammount by normal players. Most of the time you will face other casual players so you have plenty of chance to get a good few kills in against players of your own level before running into one that takes the game srsly.



Well I sorta answered this above. But the key thing to remember is that much of what makes a competitive player 'the best' is not required to complete the objectives or compete at the most basic level.

For example, there are many many players of CS who dont know the specifics of how to move and fire each of the weapons to be competitive at a high level, but they still can save the hostages or plant the bomb and have a good game against other players of their (low) skill level with out these high level details becoming an issue.

Eventually every player has to decide for themselves how much they want to put into the game in terms of effort. You cant expect a player who puts little effort into the game to be competitive against a player who puts a moderate ammount of effort in, this is basically what dumbing down a game is all about, evening out the skill level of players so the more numerous (lower skilled players) can feel like they are being 1337 and awesome and thus stay playing the game for longer (and have more brand loyalty and more chance of buying DLC etc).

Its impossible to make a good game and not have a point where a (normal) player has to say to themselves, 'this is as much effort as im willing to put into the game, and thus the skill level I will stick at'. PS2 is a good game in this respect as there is so many different things to do and experiance that a player wont burn out on these sorts of realisations too easily.

I suppose this will also be mitigated by the fact that there will be different skillsets depending on what the person wants to do. A tank diver will have a different skillset than an infantryman. I suppose I didn't think of it that way. I'm all for fair, intuitive gameplay and I don't think someone should get something for nothing. I've seen a lot of games that were no fun because the skill level was either you're really good or you're really bad and there's no getting better unless you put in a ton of tedious time and effort into getting good (which is hard to do when you're constantly dying). Perhaps THAT is what I take issue with.

[Otleaz]

To Otleaz and to a lesser extent, Zar:

I'm NOT arguing semantics, bunnyhopping is actually a GAMING TERM used to indicate a movement technique used in some shooters (usually with quake engine) where the player gains speed and air control by jumping and strafing properly.

So Otleaz, you're using a word, thinking it means something, when it means something else, that's not semantics. Know you words before you use them.

You understood what I was talking about once I said it due to context. That fact alone makes it semantics. If you got the impression that I thought battlefield had people strafe jumping and sprint jumping everywhere, then it would be different.

[AzK]

And I never said that a player shouldn't know how to do their job. In fact, what I said was that the hours and hours of practicing something inane like sidestepping should be spent learning to master the content the game devs provided instead. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. However, I'm speaking out against the petty little exploits that people employ to get an easy upper hand against someone else. Clipping, diving, bunny hopping, etc. are things that the average person will want nothing to do with and they shouldn't, because doing those things are stupid, not conducive to fun gameplay and are blatant abuse of mechanisms. THOSE have nothing to do with aim, reaction, tactics or any combination of the three.

Should a sniper put the time in to learn how to snipe? Absolutely, if he wants to be a good sniper he better, but it should be by using it while he plays the actual game and has fun doing it.



I don't see that happening in PS2 in relation to gun handling. I DO see a good infantryman using cover and positioning to win a 3v1 against people who aren't as able to think tactically and if that's the case they the guy won fair and square. What probably shouldn't happen is someone wining a 1v3 going toe-to-toe without getting behind cover and using only his gun. That shows a blatant design flaw....unless the three guys just can't aim worth crap.

It sounds like you're exactly one of those guys in the lib getting owned 3v1.

The guy is better than you on foot, his aim is better his reflexes are better his movement is better. He should kill you and your 2 friends who bombed him earlier. End of story.

But no, at the sole idea of it you start complaingin "it shouldn't be possible" "if something like that happens the game is flawed" bla bla bla. Have some decency please.

[AzK]

You understood what I was talking about once I said it due to context. That fact alone makes it semantics. If you got the impression that I thought battlefield had people strafe jumping and sprint jumping everywhere, then it would be different.

What the...

You're joking right? Yes i understood the very moment you replied you had no idea what you were talking about. But what you said was that you wouldn't want bunnyhopping (referring to the bf3 sprint jumping) in ps2 cause people can't be hit when they do it.

And that makes no sense because 1) It's not true and 2) you went on arguing about not wanting bunny hopping for ages pretending to know what it was when in your head you were thinking about something else (false, nonetheless)

So unless your goal was to entertain and amuse me, i think you've failed. Under all aspects.

[Otleaz]

What the...

You're joking right? Yes i understood the very moment you replied you had no idea what you were talking about. But what you said was that you wouldn't want bunnyhopping (referring to the bf3 sprint jumping) in ps2 cause people can't be hit when they do it.

And that makes no sense because 1) It's not true and 2) you went on arguing about not wanting bunny hopping for ages pretending to know what it was when in your head you were thinking about something else (false, nonetheless)

So unless your goal was to entertain and amuse me, i think you've failed. Under all aspects.
Yeah, we are done here. You fail to impress, though you don't disappoint. You have met my expectations to the "S".

[Ratstomper]

It sounds like you're exactly one of those guys in the lib getting owned 3v1.

The guy is better than you on foot, his aim is better his reflexes are better his movement is better. He should kill you and your 2 friends who bombed him earlier. End of story.

But no, at the sole idea of it you start complaingin "it shouldn't be possible" "if something like that happens the game is flawed" bla bla bla. Have some decency please.

Aim? No, what I just said was that if it's 3v1 and they're all at least decent shots, 3 people should be able to make up for the fact they're fighting one person in a toe to toe fight. Tactics and smart playing are what should separate good players from bad players, not how twitchy you are. No amount of hopping around, diving or side stepping should negate that.

Like talking to a brick wall.

[Mohawk]

To be honest, I don't know exactly how. I have only experienced it first hand.

Confirmation bias if ever I saw it.

[AzK]

Yeah, we are done here. You fail to impress, though you don't disappoint. You have met my expectations to the "S".

Yes, we're definitely done here, since what you called and thought was bunny hopping from cs turned out to be a non issue as it doesn't actually exist in ANY game quake engine or bf alike.

God i'm in tears..

[BillyBob]

You can't possibly think to compare the aim/twich/movement skill required to play a game like ut or quake to the aim/twich/movement skill required to play a game where people are 1) much slower 2) are basically ALWAYS still or turretting prone or in ads mode when shooting each others, and 3)weapons have random factors not controlled by players.

It is quite obvious that the former type of games have a much higher skillcap when it comes to the aim/twich/movement personal level of the player. It's just the way it is, i'm sorry.

So to answer your question yes, tactical thinking and situational awareness are a constant, the actual gameplay mechanics aren't. And games like ut or quake have a much higher skillcap in that regard as opposed to "camper" games.

I'm sorry, but you obviously have no clue whatsoever of what you're talking about. :p

Have you even played a game like for example ArmA?

It requires very high skills in twitch, aim and movement...some might even argue that it does so to a greater extent than for example CS.

Why? Because it has many additional parameters to take into account like ADS, bullet drop, wind direction, whether you're standing, kneeling or prone when firing, body sway, stamina etc.

You need to take all these things into account when hitting what you fire at, while in a game like CS, all you pretty much need to do is to place the sight over your target and fire...which could be considered as being a matter of simple "point-and-click".

Take two opposing players in ArmA and the one who will hit the other one first is the one with the best twitch aim and movement...AND best takes into account ALL the other factors I mentioned above. How could that possibly be any less demanding in terms of skills than CS? :p

As there are obviously far more parameters involved in a game like ArmA, it clearly follows that it takes more skill than CS, even when it comes to twitch, aim and movement...since you have to make far more decisions in the same given time.

Ok, see what I did there in the previous 3 paragraphs? :D You simply CAN'T claim in any true objective manner that one game takes more skills than the other...they simply require DIFFERENT applications of the same skills (twitch, aim, movement, tactics etc).

/BB

[AzK]

Aim? No, what I just said was that if it's 3v1 and they're all at least decent shots, 3 people should be able to make up for the fact they're fighting one person in a toe to toe fight. Tactics and smart playing are what should separate good players from bad players, not how twitchy you are. No amount of hopping around, diving or side stepping should negate that.

Like talking to a brick wall.

So if those 3 persons are worse than the single 1 at hopping, diving, side stepping, aiming and everything else, providing that all the 4 players have the same tactical skills, the 3 terrible ones should still win? Thanks for proving my point that in your opinion ACTUAL fps skills should count a flat out 0 in shootouts. In games that are, well, vastly about shooting.

Darwin award 2012 1st place i think.

[Seagoon]

You're mentioning vehicles and logistics, none of them have anything to do with the gunplay being discussed here, if a liberator flies over a guy in open space and bombs him, it doesn't matter if the guy's crosshair has pinpoint accuracy while running, jumping, or sliding. It doesn't matter if the guy can sprint, bunnyhop or strafe/circle jump, he'll still get oneshot by the bombs.


The vehicles and logistics I mentioned was in reference to the idea that all games had the same skill cap for situational awareness/tactics/strategy/coordination etc... I was proving this to be a silly statement with the example of the BF2 mod project reality. This was nothing really to do with the gun play specifically.


And it's perfectly fine, nobody is complaining about that or wants that changed. But say those guys in the lib are actually terrible on foot and get owned 3v1 because that person on foot is actually amazing and can use a deep gunplay mechanic to its fullest. Suddenly those people who got owned 3v1 feel entitled to complain and say that a turretting ads mechanic would be more skilled for infantry combat ..... riiiiiight. :rolleyes:

Yeah, it sucks when people who are bad at the game complain rather than learn from their mistakes and improve.
The key thing is though, that three players of average FPS skill and superior teamwork and coordination/tactics/etc should slaughter a single player who has superior FPS skill and average skill in the other catagories.
BUT I think that for PS2 to be the best game it can be, 3 players with the superior teamwork skills vs 3 players with the superior FPS skills and everything else equal, this should come out as an equal fight.
Maybe this is what some other people are getting at as well in this thread? Im not sure.

[AzK]

I'm sorry, but you obviously have no clue whatsoever of what you're talking about. :p

Have you even played a game like for example ArmA?

It requires very high skills in twitch, aim and movement...some might even argue that it does so to a greater extent than for example CS.

Why? Because it has many additional parameters to take into account like ADS, bullet drop, wind direction, whether you're standing, kneeling or prone when firing, body sway, stamina etc.

You need to take all these things into account when hitting what you fire at, while in a game like CS, all you pretty much need to do is to place the sight over your target and fire...which could be considered as being a matter of simple "point-and-click".

Take two opposing players in ArmA and the one who will hit the other one first is the one with the best twitch aim and movement...AND best takes into account ALL the other factors I mentioned above. How could that possibly be any less demanding in terms of skills than CS? :p

As there are obviously far more parameters involved in a game like ArmA, it clearly follows that it takes more skill than CS, even when it comes to twitch, aim and movement...since you have to make far more decisions in the same given time.

Ok, see what I did there in the previous 3 paragraphs? :D You simply CAN'T claim in any true objective manner that one game takes more skills than the other...they simply require DIFFERENT applications of the same skills (twitch, aim, movement, tactics etc).

/BB

I have tried arma, unfortunately, but i try to keep away from shit games so i don't play it.

You have just compared the aim/twich/movement skill required to play this Ultimate Quake Frag Video - AnnihilatioN HQ - YouTube

to the ones required to do this www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjEZTO8HxgA&feature=related

Sorry if your credibility in my eyes just reached a new low, i didn't think it was possible to go below 0 credibility, but you just did it.

No one, his right mind, could watch those 2 videos, and then say, while keeping a straight face, that arma requires the same fps aiming/twitch/movement proficiency as q3.

[Ratstomper]

So if those 3 persons are worse than the single 1 at hopping, diving, side stepping, aiming and everything else, providing that all the 4 players have the same tactical skills, the 3 terrible ones should still win? Thanks for proving my point that in your opinion ACTUAL fps skills should count a flat out 0 in shootouts. In games that are, well, vastly about shooting.

Darwin award 2012 1st place i think.

The subtle sound of jimmies rustling through the trees.

That argument makes NO sense. You didn't quantify HOW worse we're talking. Obviously, there's a point where aim can be so bad that tactics won't make up for it. What are "actual" fps skills? You're bunny hopping? If three guys go up against one and they have comparable aim, the one guy should lose in a face to face fight with no cover. It doesn;t matter if you've got the best aim in the world, if you're stupid enough to charge into a 3v1, you deserve to die (did someone say Darwin Award?). That's common sense: something you seem to be lacking in. Or are you just getting too mad to make legible arguments anymore?

[Landtank]

I have tried arma, unfortunately, but i try to keep away from shit games so i don't play it.

Sorry if your credibility in my eyes just reached a new low, i didn't think it was possible to go below 0 credibility, but you just did it.

No one, his right mind, could watch those 2 videos, and then say, while keeping a straight face, that arma requires the same fps aiming/twitch/movement proficiency as q3.

I could, they both require the same skills in a different manner I would say. You can't say one requires more skill than the other. Some people are better at flying around and adadada movements, others are better at using a scope and tracking their targets etc.

You're just an extremely biased gamer, and that's okay, just don't go throwing your opinion around like its the law.

I don't think he cares about his credibility in your eyes, I don't think anyone does really.

What are actual FPS skills? There's many different kinds of FPS games that require different skills, how do you not realize that?

[AzK]

The subtle sound of jimmies rustling through the trees.

That argument makes NO sense. You didn't quantify HOW worse we're talking. Obviously, there's a point where aim can be so bad that tactics won't make up for it. What are "actual" fps skills? You're bunny hopping? If three guys go up against one and they have comparable aim, the one guy should lose in a face to face fight with no cover. It doesn;t matter if you've got the best aim in the world, if you're stupid enough to charge into a 3v1, you deserve to die (did someone say Darwin Award?). That's common sense: something you seem to be lacking in. Or are you just getting too mad to make legible arguments anymore?

Oh, people can be pretty damn terrible, believe me, i've won plenty of 3-4(or even more)v1 fights, not because i choose to walk into a bad situation on purpose, but simply because i had no other choice (unless i knew those people were indeed subhuman and then i did it on purpose).

This is the kind of level of play we're talking about, directly from one of my outfit members on ps1 Mohawk - Auraxium (a Planetside movie) on Vimeo i'm pretty confident he could take on 3+ guys like you and come out on top.

You can keep on making up excuses as much as you like and keep saying that what i say makes no sense, at the end of the day, it's not me the one afraid of having a deeper and higher skill capped game. It's you.

[AzK]

I could, they both require the same skills in a different manner I would say. You can't say one requires more skill than the other. Some people are better at flying around and adadada movements, others are better at using a scope and tracking their targets etc.

You're just an extremely biased gamer, and that's okay, just don't go throwing your opinion around like its the law.

I don't think he cares about his credibility in your eyes, I don't think anyone does really.

What are actual FPS skills? There's many different kinds of FPS games that require different skills, how do you not realize that?

It is the law, pretty much, not because it's "my" word, but because facts prove it. Games like ut or quake have basically died out and you know what that is? Because their skillcap was too hard for the average person.

The average person is content with games like cod or bf3, where everyone can kill everyone, regardless of how good they are, precisely because the skillcap is too low, games like those thrive while the others didn't.

And the only reason is, there's far more bad players in the world than good ones. It is that simple.

[Landtank]

Oh, people can be pretty damn terrible, believe me, i've won plenty of 3-4(or even more)v1 fights, not because i choose to walk into a bad situation on purpose, but simply because i had no other choice (unless i knew those people were indeed subhuman and then i did it on purpose).

You can keep on making up excuses as much as you like and keep saying that what i say makes no sense, at the end of the day, it's not me the one afraid of having a deeper and higher skill capped game. It's you.

Have you watched the E3 videos? I feel like you haven't, you should go watch them before you comment any more.

Hmm yes I agree with your points in your new posts, but those games died out because they didn't bring anything new to the table. Yes they were hard to play, but they were hard to play for all the wrong reasons.

It was a different type of game, where there is less focus on tracking and aiming and more of a focus on movement etc.

And it's not the law, for god's sake, its your opinion.

[AzK]

The underlying reason that you all keep arguing is that you want recognition. The time for posting video's and comparing gamestyles is over. This dispute can only be settled with gunfire, in-game.

I would like to make a prediction though. The people who are going to be good at this game are the people who tend to be good at all games they play, whether it's ARMA, UT or checkers. If the aiming-skillcap is so low that everyone can be a superstar, then they will find other ways to win.

And i will, and they will whine, and call me a cheater, an exploiter, a camper, a noob, they'll wish me cancer and all those things nice people do. But for now it can't be done yet, so since bf3 is so great, i'm here replying to them instead of playing it, yes, that's how great it is.

I actually thought about going playing it like 4 hours ago. Turns out counter arguing random bs random people post here is more entertaing, what a good game.

[Landtank]

And i will, and they will whine, and call me a cheater, an exploiter, a camper, a noob, they'll wish me cancer and all those things nice people do. But for now it can't be done yet, so since bf3 is so great, i'm here replying to them instead of playing it, yes, that's how great it is.

I actually thought about going playing it like 4 hours ago. Turns out counter arguing random bs random people post here is more entertaing, what a good game.

Why do you keep posting your opinion like its the only one that matters?

[Ratstomper]

Oh, people can be pretty damn terrible, believe me, i've won plenty of 3-4(or even more)v1 fights, not because i choose to walk into a bad situation on purpose, but simply because i had no other choice (unless i knew those people were indeed subhuman and then i did it on purpose).

This is the kind of level of play we're talking about, directly from one of my outfit members on ps1 Mohawk - Auraxium Part 1 (Planetside) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWlq8lRmT1Y) i'm pretty confident he could take on 3+ guys like you and come out on top.

You can keep on making up excuses as much as you like and keep saying that what i say makes no sense, at the end of the day, it's not me the one afraid of having a deeper and higher skill capped game. It's you.

He may be able to. He might not. That's not my playstyle. I noticed your friend using a lot of cover, shooting people in the back and while using vehicles. I didn't see any 1v3, head to head victories in there. All good tactics, but not supporting your argument (whatever the hell you're trying to say). At all. I fail to see how this will persuade me as to your skills in anything.

You've still failed to make any sort of legitimate claim as to anything really. You aren't even trying to make any point. You're just prattling on about your credentials, whatever they're worth (probably not much).

Why do you keep posting your opinion like its the only one that matters?

He's butthurt because he doesn't have a leg to stand on and can't let it go, so he's projecting on everyone else.

[AzK]

Have you watched the E3 videos? I feel like you haven't, you should go watch them before you comment any more.

Hmm yes I agree with your points in your new posts, but those games died out because they didn't bring anything new to the table. Yes they were hard to play, but they were hard to play for all the wrong reasons.

It was a different type of game, where there is less focus on tracking and aiming and more of a focus on movement etc.

And it's not the law, for god's sake, its your opinion.

That's nonsense, the cod franchise hasn't brought anything new to the table for like 10 years now.

[AzK]

Why do you keep posting your opinion like its the only one that matters?

Why do you?

[AzK]

He may be able to. He might not. That's not my playstyle. I noticed your friend using a lot of cover, shooting people in the back and while using vehicles. I didn't see any 1v3, head to head victories in there. All good tactics, but not supporting your argument (whatever the hell you're trying to say). At all. I fail to see how this will persuade me as to your skills in anything.

You've still failed to make any sort of legitimate claim as to anything really. You aren't even trying to make any point. You're just prattling on about your credentials, whatever they're worth (probably not much).

I've made my points pages ago, with plenty of legitimate arguments, i'm not gonna re make them each time you reply with personal attacks or utter nonsense like a broken record.

I get it, what better players have to say is irrelevant, my credentials don't matter, i'm shit, mohawk is shit, mostwantedvip is shit, my whole outfit is shit, the future of shooters belongs to proning heroes who camp all day saying "watch out tango foxtrot roger delta 123 over" in their headsets.

Thankfully i didn't have much faith in the human race to begin with, else i'd be pretty depressed right now.

[Ratstomper]

Why do you?

:lol:


I've made my points pages ago, with plenty of legitimate arguments, i'm not gonna re make them each time you reply with personal attacks or utter nonsense like a broken record.

No hamfisted retorts this time, huh? I'm disappointed, friend.

[BillyBob]

I have tried arma, unfortunately, but i try to keep away from shit games so i don't play it.

You have just compared the aim/twich/movement skill required to play this

to the ones required to do this

Sorry if your credibility in my eyes just reached a new low, i didn't think it was possible to go below 0 credibility, but you just did it.

No one, his right mind, could watch those 2 videos, and then say, while keeping a straight face, that arma requires the same fps aiming/twitch/movement proficiency as q3.

Oh come on...is it really that hard for you to see that none of the games we've mentioned here takes any more skill than the other and it's merely the use of the skills that differ between them?

Frankly, at this point I'm beginning to doubt whether you're even sincere anymore...

/BB

[Ratstomper]

I get it, what better players have to say is irrelevant, my credentials don't matter, i'm shit, mohawk is shit, mostwantedvip is shit, my whole outfit is shit, the future of shooters belongs to proning heroes who camp all day saying "watch out tango foxtrot roger delta 123 over" in their headsets.

Thankfully i didn't have much faith in the human race to begin with, else i'd be pretty depressed right now.

I never said any of those people we're shit. All I said was that that one guy didn't show the characteristics you said he did. He did alright in the videos. Nothing to write home about, but still not bad. I also said you didn't bring any real relevant information to the discussion. You just got offended and started calling names.

[Landtank]

Why do you?

Go read my posts and realize your mistake.

I feel like you need a time out.

The fact that you judge your faith in the human race based upon video games is extremely concerning.

CoD has been innovating since its inception, hence it's popularity before consoles, herp derp. I don't like the newer CoD games, but I'm not going to bash them because I consider myself god like you apparently do.

Try articulating your argument in a calm and collected manner, and maybe you will make more friends!

Also: stop triple posting, its bad.

[AzK]

Go read my posts and realize your mistake.

I feel like you need a time out.

The fact that you judge your faith in the human race based upon video games is extremely concerning.

CoD has been innovating since its inception, hence it's popularity before consoles, herp derp. I don't like the newer CoD games, but I'm not going to bash them because I consider myself god like you apparently do.

Try articulating your argument in a calm and collected manner, and maybe you will make more friends!

Also: stop triple posting, its bad.

If you want to read articulated and calm arguments go read previous pages, i'm past that now, this guy and probably you as well just keep replying to troll so WHY should i bother to repeat myself over and over again?

[Landtank]

If you want to read articulated and calm arguments go read previous pages, i'm past that now, this guy and probably you as well just keep replying to troll so WHY should i bother to repeat myself over and over again?

How on earth are we trolling? If you can't post in a calm manner then stop posting, ffs.

[Ratstomper]

If you want to read articulated and calm arguments go read previous pages, i'm past that now, this guy and probably you as well just keep replying to troll so WHY should i bother to repeat myself over and over again?

Hold on. I've been a little trolly, but coupled with legitimate points. These other guys haven't been trolling, though....

[AzK]

How on earth are we trolling? If you can't post in a calm manner then stop posting, ffs.

Posts are still fairly decent for my standards, also funny how you put ffs at the end of a sentence where you tell someone else he can't post in a calm manner.

You just came in here, didn't even bother to read the previous 4-5 hours worth of previous replies (were people got absolutely destroyed on many different arguments, and in really calm ways too btw) and while bringing nothing to the table you just start replying i should stop posting. And throw in some personal attacks about how i think i'm god or whatever. Wat.

No thanks, you first.
As for the other guy, it's just hopeless how hard he's trying, i just treat him like he's a bit special at this point.

[Ratstomper]

No thanks, you first.
As for the other guy, it's just hopeless how hard he's trying, i just treat him like he's a bit special at this point.

Which guy is that? Me? Or the other 20 people who see your full of BS? :rolleyes:

[Hamma]

Guys really? Is there a thread where we can at least try to avoid arguing about silly things.

Get on track or we start issuing infractions.

[SKYeXile]

The underlying reason that you all keep arguing is that you want recognition. The time for posting video's and comparing gamestyles is over. This dispute can only be settled with gunfire, in-game.

I would like to make a prediction though. The people who are going to be good at this game are the people who tend to be good at all games they play, whether it's ARMA, UT or checkers. If the aiming-skillcap is so low that everyone can be a superstar, then they will find other ways to win.

Prettymuch, that is always the case.

[Landtank]

Posts are still fairly decent for my standards, also funny how you put ffs at the end of a sentence where you tell someone else he can't post in a calm manner.

You just came in here, didn't even bother to read the previous 4-5 hours worth of previous replies (were people got absolutely destroyed on many different arguments, and in really calm ways too btw) and while bringing nothing to the table you just start replying i should stop posting. And throw in some personal attacks about how i think i'm god or whatever. Wat.

No thanks, you first.
As for the other guy, it's just hopeless how hard he's trying, i just treat him like he's a bit special at this point.

You are hopeless.

Sorry Hamma, definitely got off track.

[Ratstomper]

Guys really? Is there a thread where we can at least try to avoid arguing about silly things.

Get on track or we start issuing infractions.

Sorry, Hamma. Should have dropped it like I said I would pages ago. oops:

[Dreamcast]

I don't understand all of this Counter Strike superiority.


Don't get me wrong the game required lots of skill and was very competitive....but the game itself is extremely simple.

Their wasn't much that it did that is very unique or amazing than todays games dont have....Only reason IMO that it was popular was because at the time their wasn't many shooters at the time and is simplicity.

The reason I believe it became so competitive was because it was a damn ritual for the most part......The Servers I played on were dedicated to 3-5 maps only...The game always had certain places where battles took place.

Counter-strike just feels very scripted....their isn't much chaos like in other games...Since counter strike games are you dead=game over....The battles for the most part always take place in the same places.

Is easy to say it requires more skill when the game is a ritual like counter strike.



What I mean by this is that chaotic games like battlefield 3 or COD or a lot of other different games where people spawn automatically....In these games is harder to see skill gaps between n00bs and Pros because the gameplay is just chaotic. Rarely do battles happen in the same area over and over again....So a n00b could kill a pro if he is in the right position.

Counter Strike in the other hand since people play in the same maps and are used to the same key areas of fighting.....Is easy to see the difference between a pro and n00b or some what experienced gamer....Because Counter Strike is about mastering the ritual.


Thats just my opinion tho.

[RadarX]

It's fun to go back and watch things jump the rails...

The team is really happy to have Jimmy and of course he wasn't hired just based on the fact he's really good at FPS games. I think the more you guys learn about him, the more you'll see he's a perfect fit for PlanetSide 2.

[drennam]

and also maybe start thinking about how you all are representing the PS community right now from a new staff members perspective...

[Xaine]

Welcome Jiimmy, i'm very excited to see what you bring to the game.

Please ignore the people who are running their mouths about things they don't really understand. Some of the ignorance in this thread is jaw dropping. :D

Good luck sir!

[Otleaz]

and also maybe start thinking about how you all are representing the PS community right now from a new staff members perspective...
You say that like it is a bad thing. At least we aren't fanboys. Nothing is worse for a game than a community that has their heads so far up the developer's asses that they crucify every person who dares speak up about his negative experience.

[Shogun]

i am a little ashamed of this thread.

poor jimmy has only posted a few things to say hello and state what he wants to do to the game, and all we do is bitch about other things he has done so far that had nothing to do with planetside...
almost nobody cares for his posts that were really positive and sounded like he wants to really help the game and that he will try to give a veto whenever somebody suggests something that might water down the game.

shouldn´t we let him try before we bitch about him? i know we are the champions, when it comes to jumping to conclusions, but this thread is getting very pathetic.

it´s a good thing that the other devs already know the community and can tell jimmy, what he should take serious and what to ignore completely.
good to hear that the devs are actually having some fun with our derailing. god would it suck, if the devs would take EVERY ranting serious and if they had no humour at all.

what do you think how much communication we would have seen if this was the case?

[Xaine]

i am a little ashamed of this thread.

poor jimmy has only posted a few things to say hello and state what he wants to do to the game, and all we do is bitch about other things he has done so far that had nothing to do with planetside...
almost nobody cares for his posts that were really positive and sounded like he wants to really help the game and that he will try to give a veto whenever somebody suggests something that might water down the game.

shouldn´t we let him try before we bitch about him? i know we are the champions, when it comes to jumping to conclusions, but this thread is getting very pathetic.

it´s a good thing that the other devs already know the community and can tell jimmy, what he should take serious and what to ignore completely.
good to hear that the devs are actually having some fun with our derailing. god would it suck, if the devs would take EVERY ranting serious and if they had no humour at all.

what do you think how much communication we would have seen if this was the case?

Well said.

[Landtank]

i am a little ashamed of this thread.

poor jimmy has only posted a few things to say hello and state what he wants to do to the game, and all we do is bitch about other things he has done so far that had nothing to do with planetside...
almost nobody cares for his posts that were really positive and sounded like he wants to really help the game and that he will try to give a veto whenever somebody suggests something that might water down the game.

shouldn´t we let him try before we bitch about him? i know we are the champions, when it comes to jumping to conclusions, but this thread is getting very pathetic.

it´s a good thing that the other devs already know the community and can tell jimmy, what he should take serious and what to ignore completely.
good to hear that the devs are actually having some fun with our derailing. god would it suck, if the devs would take EVERY ranting serious and if they had no humour at all.

what do you think how much communication we would have seen if this was the case?

Very well said.

All that can be said is that the Devs know exactly what they are doing, and that this game will succeed.

[Bine]

Well welcome home, Wisenhunt! Think of this as a very accurate portrayal of being in a family of thousands of brothers and sisters...

heh, who gets along with their family all the time? ;)

Let the idiots spew their nonsense. Glad to have you here, you can only make the dev team stronger.

[Vancha]

You say that like it is a bad thing. At least we aren't fanboys. Nothing is worse for a game than a community that has their heads so far up the developer's asses that they crucify every person who dares speak up about his negative experience.
Erm, that's almost exactly what this thread is. "What? A new developer mingling with our beloved? Who's he? An "eeee - sports" player you say? From Counter Strike? That old thing? Oh no I think not...No I don't like that at all".

The fanboys have descended into being jealous lovers.

[basti]

It's fun to go back and watch things jump the rails...

The team is really happy to have Jimmy and of course he wasn't hired just based on the fact he's really good at FPS games. I think the more you guys learn about him, the more you'll see he's a perfect fit for PlanetSide 2.

Maybe, quite possibly actually. But let us rabble a bit more, hmkay? ;)

[Raymac]

i am a little ashamed of this thread.

poor jimmy has only posted a few things to say hello and state what he wants to do to the game, and all we do is bitch about other things he has done so far that had nothing to do with planetside...
almost nobody cares for his posts that were really positive and sounded like he wants to really help the game and that he will try to give a veto whenever somebody suggests something that might water down the game.

shouldn´t we let him try before we bitch about him? i know we are the champions, when it comes to jumping to conclusions, but this thread is getting very pathetic.

it´s a good thing that the other devs already know the community and can tell jimmy, what he should take serious and what to ignore completely.
good to hear that the devs are actually having some fun with our derailing. god would it suck, if the devs would take EVERY ranting serious and if they had no humour at all.

what do you think how much communication we would have seen if this was the case?

/agree

[RedKnights]

i am a little ashamed of this thread.

poor jimmy has only posted a few things to say hello and state what he wants to do to the game, and all we do is bitch about other things he has done so far that had nothing to do with planetside...
almost nobody cares for his posts that were really positive and sounded like he wants to really help the game and that he will try to give a veto whenever somebody suggests something that might water down the game.

shouldn´t we let him try before we bitch about him? i know we are the champions, when it comes to jumping to conclusions, but this thread is getting very pathetic.

it´s a good thing that the other devs already know the community and can tell jimmy, what he should take serious and what to ignore completely.
good to hear that the devs are actually having some fun with our derailing. god would it suck, if the devs would take EVERY ranting serious and if they had no humour at all.

what do you think how much communication we would have seen if this was the case?

Couldn't agree more, he's exactly the kind of guy I want on a team, really understands the genre.

[Forsaken One]

Guys he's not here to change PlanetSide 2 into CS, or make an eSport, he's here to help us make our weapons FEEL awesome, balanced and competitive. Having a competitive FPS player on the team is going to help us out a lot.

While this sounds nice most competitive games have a terrible as heck weapon balance.

They balance for risk vs reward or how "reflex based skilled" something is. Once you do that every weapon or item that does not have a high reward gets made useless and obsolete. This is why in competitive FPS's like CS everyone runs around with the desert eagle and the sniper.

I for one don't want my weapons to feel anywhere near competitive. I rather they all be fun and balanced so all play-styles are supported instead of just the twitcher.

[Landtank]

While this sounds nice most competitive games have a terrible as heck weapon balance.

They balance for risk vs reward or how "reflex based skilled" something is. Once you do that every weapon or item that does not have a high reward gets made useless and obsolete. This is why in competitive FPS's like CS everyone runs around with the desert eagle and the sniper.

I for one don't want my weapons to feel anywhere near competitive. I rather they all be fun and balanced so all play-styles are supported instead of just the twitcher.

I love your signature, its fantastic.

I too support the balanced play style, and it looks like thats the direction the game is headed. Mr. Whisenhunt will be a fantastic addition to the team, as he has stated before he has played quite a few FPS games, and it's safe to assume he knows what he is doing :P

[jepaul]

96% percent of people polled by a national firm said the want bunny hoping and instant knife kills in planet side 2.

[Oryon22]

Fairly late to the party, but I don't mind missing all the armchair game developers speak nonsense about how they want to keep Planetside in 2003.

Welcome aboard man ;)

[lawnmower]

Hmm yes I agree with your points in your new posts, but those games died out because they didn't bring anything new to the table. Yes they were hard to play, but they were hard to play for all the wrong reasons.

It was a different type of game, where there is less focus on tracking and aiming and more of a focus on movement etc.

wheres your source for any of this

And it's not the law, for god's sake, its your opinion.
its not his opinion


He's butthurt because he doesn't have a leg to stand on and can't let it go, so he's projecting on everyone else.
youre the ones claiming every game has the same skill cap, only different skill requirements

Oh come on...is it really that hard for you to see that none of the games we've mentioned here takes any more skill than the other and it's merely the use of the skills that differ between them?

Frankly, at this point I'm beginning to doubt whether you're even sincere anymore...

/BB
is it really that hard for you to see that the games obviously have different skill caps and levels of approachabilllity?
I doubt whether youre even sincere anymore

Go read my posts and realize your mistake.

like how you claim quake somehow died out because it stopped bringing anything new to the table and that they were hard for the wrong reasons?

Which guy is that? Me? Or the other 20 people who see your full of BS? :rolleyes:
which ones? and which ones have came up with any arguments?

[LegioX]

Now they need to hire a guy who knows flight sims like the back of his hand, so we can have some sort of middle ground between ultra realistic flight sim and a arcade flight game. Make it happen!!!

[lawnmower]

I don't understand all of this Counter Strike superiority.


Don't get me wrong the game required lots of skill and was very competitive....but the game itself is extremely simple.

Their wasn't much that it did that is very unique or amazing than todays games dont have....Only reason IMO that it was popular was because at the time their wasn't many shooters at the time and is simplicity.
one could maybe say it was sort of the start of this casual millitary shooter trend, perhaps providing a game for a lot more people where the ttk was low enough that one could luck out somewhat often even with quite a disadvantage. it was also timed well with the explosion of multiplayer id say, and was a free mod to the hugely popular, and cheap half-life. the gameplay had a new and original gameplay which must have had some degree of appeal as well. also easy to learn.

I love your signature, its fantastic.

of course the cute thing is progamers are superior in every way.
and ive yet to see any supporting evidence that a game with high skillceiling for aiming gets tactical options taken away from it.
probably because its an insane statement

While this sounds nice most competitive games have a terrible as heck weapon balance.

They balance for risk vs reward or how "reflex based skilled" something is. Once you do that every weapon or item that does not have a high reward gets made useless and obsolete. This is why in competitive FPS's like CS everyone runs around with the desert eagle and the sniper.

are you sure everyone is always running around with that?
and why would a competetive game be ideal to not have weapon balance?

[Graywolves]

Forums are fun. :groovy:


When you play the game of posts, you either win or you die.

[GuyFawkes]

Anyone remember the original official ps1 forum before they moved it to the present site, and removed the old posts?

I sort of remember the same argument going on for a few hundred pages. Eliminatorr was legend back then. Probably where TotalBiscuit got the 'more posts that kills' moniker if I recall.

[GreatMazinkaise]

Anyone remember the original official ps1 forum before they moved it to the present site, and removed the old posts?

I sort of remember the same argument going on for a few hundred pages. Eliminatorr was legend back then. Probably where TotalBiscuit got the 'more posts that kills' moniker if I recall.

That is where TB gets his title... most famously from crying for a Surgile nerf, but also in the general "it kills me, therefore nerf it" sense.

[Pella]

It is the law, pretty much, not because it's "my" word, but because facts prove it. Games like ut or quake have basically died out and you know what that is? Because their skillcap was too hard for the average person.

The average person is content with games like cod or bf3, where everyone can kill everyone, regardless of how good they are, precisely because the skillcap is too low, games like those thrive while the others didn't.

And the only reason is, there's far more bad players in the world than good ones. It is that simple.

Couldn't agree more with this. The problem with modern day games is weapon customization. Think about it... Player A: With a higher lvl has Less recoil, and less spread has a massive advantage. If we are talking about Modern games.

UT/QUAKE/CS There was no such things as attachments.

Todays Games. People Mimic set ups of people that are getting lots of kills. (BF3 as and example).

[BlazingSun]

Is this Monty Pythons argument clinic? :groovy:

[Pella]

Is this Monty Pythons argument clinic? :groovy:

No it inst :P

[jepaul]

I bet ps plays like an fps shooter with competitive elements. Discuss

[jepaul]

Funny how these things play out.

Esports and competitive play.

LOVE IT!!

Guys he's not here to change PlanetSide 2 into CS, or make an eSport, he's here to help us make our weapons FEEL awesome, balanced and competitive. Having a competitive FPS player on the team is going to help us out a lot.

Well I for one am glad the game is going the competitive espors route and I am very excited. The news over the weekend was perfect!!

Although at the time it would have been nice just to say that is the direction PS2 was going. Great hire IMO and can't wait for the eSport casts.

[jepaul]

Is Jim going to be the announcer for what has been announced as the next big thing in e-sports? We can hope.

[jepaul]

Guys he's not here to change PlanetSide 2 into CS, or make an eSport, he's here to help us make our weapons FEEL awesome, balanced and competitive. Having a competitive FPS player on the team is going to help us out a lot.


I believe we can all agree now that this is going to be a huge competitive fps game and I for one welcome it. So Jimmy might not be there to make it as esport but I think plenty of other people are already there helping with that. Looking forward to esport planetside 2. Love comptitive small play. Small being less than 72. That will really shut some of these zergfits up about who is the best outfit.

Not sure why Higby didn't come out and just say it month ago instead of posting this misleading quote.