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View Full Version : Night fighting, Thermal imaging sight a must?


Chiron
2012-06-23, 03:03 AM
After watching the entire E3 planetside 2 series on youtube I noticed a few instances during night fighting that a player used a Thermal imaging sight. Depending on range this could be a "must" cert. Those night fights were dark. This also brings up the specter of snipers with this cert. You think you are all nice and bundled up in a deep dark corner and someone with a long range gun and the thermal imaging cert has your brain exit your noggin at a high rate of speed... :D

Otleaz
2012-06-23, 03:16 AM
It was only that dark because we were watching a stream.

Short range it would be pointless, medium range it might help tell who your allies are, and long long range it might reveal an enemy you wouldn't have seen otherwise.

That is how I think it will be at least.

Sabot
2012-06-23, 03:23 AM
Not pointless.. from what I could see, the grenades left quite a bit of smoke after them, and judging how PS1s base battles went, I predict a lot of nades being thrown around. The thermal scope lets you see through the smoke.

Meriv
2012-06-23, 04:46 AM
It was only that dark because we were watching a stream.


how does being in stream influence it? I mean TB one were done with fraps soo we had the exactly look of the game (in pre beta) and it looked liked sometimes too be quite a pitch black.

what night brings I think will be a change of gaming, the thermal is the first thing I am going after, because if in day I can fight in urban zones/covered etc..etc.. During the night it will be easier to advance without being spoted by the enemy in open ground soo I will be using the night as med-long range battle and the thermal scope will be a key tool

Otleaz
2012-06-23, 05:42 AM
how does being in stream influence it? I mean TB one were done with fraps soo we had the exactly look of the game (in pre beta) and it looked liked sometimes too be quite a pitch black.

what night brings I think will be a change of gaming, the thermal is the first thing I am going after, because if in day I can fight in urban zones/covered etc..etc.. During the night it will be easier to advance without being spoted by the enemy in open ground soo I will be using the night as med-long range battle and the thermal scope will be a key tool

That is where I was coming from. The TB night preview was much brighter than the E3 stream.

I don't see myself using thermal sights if it only gets as dark as it did when he showed it off.

Vanu Techpriest
2012-06-23, 05:55 AM
It will also depend on whether or not we can adjust the gamma and brightness settings to some extent.

Toppopia
2012-06-23, 06:10 AM
It will also depend on whether or not we can adjust the gamma and brightness settings to some extent.

I hope if we choose to do that, all it does is make it look grey instead of black, like in some Splinter Cell games, when i turn up the brightness, it just looks like complete greyness instead of complete blackness and i still can't see. I hope the devs make sure that there is no way to enhance our night time besides using night vision gear, or else night fighting will be useless.

Knightwyvern
2012-06-23, 06:16 AM
I hope if we choose to do that, all it does is make it look grey instead of black, like in some Splinter Cell games, when i turn up the brightness, it just looks like complete greyness instead of complete blackness and i still can't see. I hope the devs make sure that there is no way to enhance our night time besides using night vision gear, or else night fighting will be useless.

Amen to that. Gamma "hack" is really, really annoying. Let's hope you can't magically see cloakers by turning it up either.

Rago
2012-06-23, 08:15 AM
Its Okay to have it Dark, i will not need infra-Sights since im a "Ironsight" Player.
I like it Dark, the only light i need is the one on the Flash.

Fek
2012-06-23, 08:17 AM
Personally I would like thermal imaging to be weak, so night fighting offers a very different dynamic to day fighting and the darkness offers reliable cover. Powerful flashlights/headlights would be good though, requiring skill and thought to use rather than just highlighting the enemy a bright colour on a dark background.

Anyone that was unfortunate enough to play BF3 will remember the noob vision fiasco that occurred there.

Image intensification would also be a better alternative to thermal imaging.

Stew
2012-06-23, 08:44 AM
I dont want the thermal vision to be strong at all !

i want it to have a very limited range so nigth figth will be more tactical and the environement will allow us to use some tactics within the dark area

if the thermal is OP everyones will run with a thermal vision all the time and nigth time will be more a gimmick than a gameplay elements

Knotz
2012-06-23, 10:42 AM
I want night vision, thermal vision, flares and headlights to actually be useful. I hope turning up your gamma does sod all, its basically cheating imo... also, maybe the night vision is colour coded for the empires too. Maybe TR has a red tinge on their night vision, NC have a blue tinge and VS have rainbows and stuff...

CutterJohn
2012-06-23, 11:45 AM
I hope turning up your gamma does sod all, its basically cheating imo

Yet it will, because the game has to be playable. LCDs have crap for contrast ratios, so playing in any sort of brightly lit environment requires pumping the gamma. Since people won't want to play in a dark room, and they'll also want to see, gamma.

But those contrast ratios work both ways, and a gamma set for good viewing in a bright room will make everything ridiculously obvious in a dark room. And thus the whole night experiment is rendered moot, turning night into a period of time where the game just looks like crap.

This isn't dayz. They cannot just make the game punishing and laugh at the whiners, they have to worry about retention.

Honestly a punishing darkness in a game is just one of those impossibilities, just like you can't have time dilation in a multiplayer game or distance restricted coms between teammates(because teamspeak).

And speaking personally, I don't want night because its just pointless. Night vision would be a cereal box prize by then. Its ridiculous that it wouldn't be in every soldiers helmet and every vehicle. And since I don't want some funky night vision colors for 1/3 of the time, why even bother with night in the first place?




That is where I was coming from. The TB night preview was much brighter than the E3 stream.

I don't see myself using thermal sights if it only gets as dark as it did when he showed it off.


Moons. There are two moons, and depending one which are up, the nights will be different levels of darkness.

2 moons = very bright
large moon = bright
small moon = dim
no moons = dark

Or something to that effect.

Noivad
2012-06-23, 12:09 PM
War Inc. Battlezone - Its still in Beta - has a dark so dark you can't see clearly unless you get Thermal imageing, or shut the room lights behind you in real life and let your eyes adjust to it. The Realism is great and a lot of fun to play even with the goggles. Its purely a twitch shooter. It also has lights on buildings, on lamp posts, inside rooms that allow those with out thermal helmets to see. You can shoot the lights out to make an area darker as well. But there are enough flares, and indirect lights that allow you to see in most areas.

Would like to see PS2 Interior base areas have some dark areas, and or lights to be shot out. It would add to the emersion of the game inside of buildings, just as night time will add to the outside areas. :evil:

Blackwolf
2012-06-23, 12:22 PM
I'm hoping that thermal vision is useful too.

I love the idea of night fighting, and I love the idea of thermal vision enhancing night fighting. Who cares if everyone will pick it up? Seems like certs aren't based on BR level at all so chances are everyone will pick it up anyway.

And it sounds like thermal vision will be restricted to scopes, not built into helmets. So during the day you might want a scope more suited for day combat then night combat. You give up a sidegrade slot for that thermal scope too.

DarkChiron
2012-06-23, 02:57 PM
Firstly, OP, who are you and why do we have the same name?

Secondly: I don't know how required thermal imaging will have to be. It helps see infiltrators, it helps see people standing still, and it helps view things through smoke clouds/debris. However, even when the night is dark you can often see moving targets easily enough, and most of the bases seem lit up enough for you to see at least in their close perimeter.

Stew
2012-06-23, 03:01 PM
I'm hoping that thermal vision is useful too.

I love the idea of night fighting, and I love the idea of thermal vision enhancing night fighting. Who cares if everyone will pick it up? Seems like certs aren't based on BR level at all so chances are everyone will pick it up anyway.

And it sounds like thermal vision will be restricted to scopes, not built into helmets. So during the day you might want a scope more suited for day combat then night combat. You give up a sidegrade slot for that thermal scope too.

Who cares ?

I care because the dark nigth can offers tons of tactical option if nigth figth become Thermal figth their is no purpose anymore to night figth at all if you can be seen even more than in the day figth !

This is simply silly

Nigth figth brings tons of opportunity and will be ruins by thermal vision if everybody equip it especially if their is a thermal vision implants this will be the end of nigth figth as a strategics gameplay ellements

Nemises
2012-06-23, 03:19 PM
..you know, modern browsers actually have spell checkers built into 'em! ;)

And, no, you're wrong...a thermal scope or night vision would be at the expense of some other advantageous scope type ...Also, folks aren't generally running around looking down their scopes, so legitimate night stealth could / should still be intact.

Stew
2012-06-23, 03:30 PM
..you know, modern browsers actually have spell checkers built into 'em! ;)

And, no, you're wrong...a thermal scope or night vision would be at the expense of some other advantageous scope type ...Also, folks aren't generally running around looking down their scopes, so legitimate night stealth could / should still be intact.

Despite the spell chek have you read the part about (( themal vision implant ? if they implements this sort of thing it will ruins the nigth figth and also the thermal sigth have to have a limited range ! If not i will run around with the ANTI THERMAL IMPLANTS ALL THE TIME !

VoodooJanus
2012-06-23, 03:34 PM
Here's my question: will thermal negate the effects of Infiltrators' cloak? I was never a fan of the blacklight thing in PS1.

I honestly see night-fighting as having a single dominant thing to overcome, and that is vehicle night-vision. That seems to tip the scales way in the favor of vehicles, without much compensation for infantry. I could see it being viable if it worked like a tradeoff: a considerable reduction in either distance, fading to grey at longer distances, or a more restrictive viewing area (like 60 degrees at a time.)

Of course, we haven't seen any of the NV effects yet, so we should probably wait before calling bloody mary over imbalance/pointless nightfights.

Sledgecrushr
2012-06-23, 03:34 PM
+1 for prey vision

FuzzyandBlue
2012-06-23, 03:45 PM
From what little was shown of the IR scope in the E3 footage they seemed pretty short ranged. I don't think we'll have to worry about them being as op as they were in the early days of BF3.

Meecrob
2012-06-23, 04:06 PM
From what ive seen from the E3 footage thermal will be needed in some cases. When its in the middle of the night and your in the shadow("no moonlight on you") your just not visible. I hope this won't be gamma "hackable" and i think it wont. Your monitor just shows black on these spots and the characters blend into this black no matter how high your gamma is.

I would like to see a response on this from someone who knows tbh, because its rly a night game changer. Like stated before in other games nights are never any problem, I would like to see this be different in PS2. Also think how epic a thunderstorm will be when its really this pitch black dark and a tank column is trying to sneak up to a base your guarding;)

Purple
2012-06-23, 04:15 PM
wont a flashlight on a gun still be useful?

Mauser101
2012-06-23, 04:57 PM
What I'd like to see...

Short to medium range passive image intensification as you would get from NVGs...but only while aiming down the sights.

As a sidegrade to the passive night vision you may purchase an IR Illuminator for the weapon (standard takes up a weapon upgrade slot so the two items seriously specialize the weapon). IR Illuminator would work just like they do in the real world. To anybody else using night vision they paint a bright neon sign on you saying, "Here I am! Shoot this guy!" You simply follow the IR beam back to the origination point and drop a 150mm shell on it.

So, if a sniper wants to have long range night vision he's more than welcome to have it, but he damn well better stay at long range or he's toast and he's gonna have to choose the right time to use it as well as stay on the move between shots.

Seems only fair that such an IR Illuminator would be toggleable.

Toppopia
2012-06-23, 06:07 PM
Also think how epic a thunderstorm will be when its really this pitch black dark and a tank column is trying to sneak up to a base your guarding;)

Yes, that would be amazing, a big thunderstorm, lightening and thunder everywhere, can't hear much except for the intermittent gaps in the lightening, and not hearing the aircraft squadron coming towards the base or that tank column rolling up. Epic.

Knotz
2012-06-23, 06:52 PM
And speaking personally, I don't want night because I THINK IT IS pointless.

edited for you.

Yes, that would be amazing, a big thunderstorm, lightening and thunder everywhere, can't hear much except for the intermittent gaps in the lightening, and not hearing the aircraft squadron coming towards the base or that tank column rolling up. Epic.

and hearing the rain... that would be AWESOME!

Toppopia
2012-06-23, 06:58 PM
Yet it will, because the game has to be playable. LCDs have crap for contrast ratios, so playing in any sort of brightly lit environment requires pumping the gamma. Since people won't want to play in a dark room, and they'll also want to see, gamma.

But those contrast ratios work both ways, and a gamma set for good viewing in a bright room will make everything ridiculously obvious in a dark room. And thus the whole night experiment is rendered moot, turning night into a period of time where the game just looks like crap.

This isn't dayz. They cannot just make the game punishing and laugh at the whiners, they have to worry about retention.

Honestly a punishing darkness in a game is just one of those impossibilities, just like you can't have time dilation in a multiplayer game or distance restricted coms between teammates(because teamspeak).

And speaking personally, I don't want night because its just pointless. Night vision would be a cereal box prize by then. Its ridiculous that it wouldn't be in every soldiers helmet and every vehicle. And since I don't want some funky night vision colors for 1/3 of the time, why even bother with night in the first place?







Moons. There are two moons, and depending one which are up, the nights will be different levels of darkness.

2 moons = very bright
large moon = bright
small moon = dim
no moons = dark

Or something to that effect.


I don't mind being allowed to turn up brightness, but if an enemy is meant to be hidden, i want them to be hidden, even if i have turned up my brightness to 100, because then that makes the night pointless, but, not all night will be pitch black, since there are 3 moons, it will actually be maybe once every month its ever pitch black, so you don't need to worry too much about that.

sylphaen
2012-06-23, 07:03 PM
As long as VS get the black lights on their magriders, what's the problem ?
:D

Electrofreak
2012-06-23, 10:51 PM
I have a feeling infiltrators will excel at combat at night. :evil:

That said, flashlights have been mentioned more than once. Obviously as a flashlight on a weapon is a huge positional giveaway, I think that if a flashlight on a weapon is pointed at you, the glare should be enough that can't really see the target, just like if someone shone a bright flashlight in your face while in the dark IRL.

So long range players would probably elect the night vision scope, while those involved in shorter-range combat would probably go with the flashlight and switch it on or off tactically.

Also, I think it's worth pointing out the difference between thermal vision, which could potentially be countered by some sort of thermal shielding, and night vision, which could be countered by a bright flashlight in the same manner as mentioned before. There may be night vision in-helmet, for example, while thermal vision is restricted to scopes.

I also want to throw laser pointer attachments into this as well... I'd like to see them function as they really do IRL and paint a visible dot on the target which can't be traced back to the weapon unless there is fog or dust in the air.

Toppopia
2012-06-23, 11:10 PM
I have a feeling infiltrators will excel at combat at night. :evil:

That said, flashlights have been mentioned more than once. Obviously as a flashlight on a weapon is a huge positional giveaway, I think that if a flashlight on a weapon is pointed at you, the glare should be enough that can't really see the target, just like if someone shone a bright flashlight in your face while in the dark IRL.

So long range players would probably elect the night vision scope, while those involved in shorter-range combat would probably go with the flashlight and switch it on or off tactically.

Also, I think it's worth pointing out the difference between thermal vision, which could potentially be countered by some sort of thermal shielding, and night vision, which could be countered by a bright flashlight in the same manner as mentioned before. There may be night vision in-helmet, for example, while thermal vision is restricted to scopes.

I also want to throw laser pointer attachments into this as well... I'd like to see them function as they really do IRL and paint a visible dot on the target which can't be traced back to the weapon unless there is fog or dust in the air.

And i hope lightening blinds flashlight users, even fog would have bad effects wouldn't it?

Otleaz
2012-06-24, 12:36 AM
Flashlight glare would be REALLY unfun if it worked, and it would be pointless if it didn't work.

I think flashlights should have other uses instead, such as seeing mines or claymores in the dark, or maybe casting a shadow on stealth characters.

WVoneseven
2012-06-24, 12:41 AM
All vision aids should be in the sights. That way there is a restriction on clarity of vision and situation awareness at the same time. Only what would be displayed through the scope/sight should be lit up with IR or thermal and all the surrounding screen be dark, while a flashlight lights up a greater area. This way sneaky classes and classes that don't need a wide knowledge of the battlefield will chose the Night vision sights which allow them to be accurate as well as stealthy, while classes who are less worried about being spotted like HA might chose flashlight to get a better and more informative view of what they are shooting at. Also this would act as a HA counter to INF with night vision.

Electrofreak
2012-06-24, 01:36 AM
Flashlight glare would be REALLY unfun if it worked, and it would be pointless if it didn't work.

I think flashlights should have other uses instead, such as seeing mines or claymores in the dark, or maybe casting a shadow on stealth characters.

Well, lighting a flashlight on a dark battlefield is akin to putting up a spotlight that says "KILL ME!"

There has to be some legitimate tactical purpose for it. Glare was just the first thing that came to mind. Honestly, give me an infra-red flashlight and night vision goggles and I'm set. :p

Toppopia
2012-06-24, 01:55 AM
Flashlight glare would be REALLY unfun if it worked, and it would be pointless if it didn't work.

I think flashlights should have other uses instead, such as seeing mines or claymores in the dark, or maybe casting a shadow on stealth characters.

As long as flashlights can't turn on during the day, then i think it will be good, and if its night time, and someone shines a light in your face, you will have a hard time seeing anything. But the devs can easily find a good balance.

Nemises
2012-06-24, 10:27 AM
Despite the spell chek have you read the part about (( themal vision implant ? if they implements this sort of thing it will ruins the nigth figth and also the thermal sigth have to have a limited range ! If not i will run around with the ANTI THERMAL IMPLANTS ALL THE TIME !

Ah yep, apologies...I was so busy being clever about your spell checker (or lack thereof), I neglected to fully understand your post..!

Thermal as an implant?..hmm, if that is an option (is it, has it been mentioned?) then, again, it will be at the sacrifice of some other implant.

If you recall in PS1, you could not just switch implants around willy nilly...
so..having a thermal implant will do you little or no good during the day... whereas the guy you are fighting might have another implant that does give him an advantage over you..so

..rock / paper / scissors

Baneblade
2012-06-24, 11:34 AM
I want to be able to drive my tank with lights off.

Electrofreak
2012-06-24, 11:44 AM
I want to be able to drive my tank with lights off.

I asked in a thread about it, a dev responded (T-Ray maybe?) saying there will be a toggle to turn them on and off. Same will apply to flashlights / laser pointers on weapons.

As long as flashlights can't turn on during the day, then i think it will be good, and if its night time, and someone shines a light in your face, you will have a hard time seeing anything. But the devs can easily find a good balance.

Well, if someone shines a flashlight in your face during daylight, it doesn't cause much glare compared to when the same is done at night, and I assume ForgeLight can be tweaked so it's not an issue.

Trafalgar
2012-06-24, 12:08 PM
It'll be interesting to see how it is handled. Flashlights sound like a way to say "HERE I AM SHOOT ME," but flares or flashbangs or just high-luminosity tossable disco balls might be useful for blinding people using night vision equipment / implants (not that flashbangs wouldn't already blind people).

i want it to have a very limited range so nigth figth will be more tactical and the environement will allow us to use some tactics within the dark area

if the thermal is OP everyones will run with a thermal vision all the time and nigth time will be more a gimmick than a gameplay elements

Umm, you do know that you don't have to transcribe your accent? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html)

Sturmhardt
2012-06-24, 12:22 PM
I am very sceptical about the thermal scope, it somehow just transforms the night into a pink and green world. It makes the darkness of the night obsolete and everyone would use them if they were very effective (like in bf3 before the nerf). Lets see how it works out.

TheRandomAmiba
2012-06-24, 01:05 PM
i dont know if other people would like it but it would be awesome if it was pitch black like on earth that way you depend on lights or infrared

CTheRain
2012-06-24, 01:24 PM
I won't be using guns in my night raiding group. All infiltrators with knifes. We will cut our way through the enemy.

Seeing 60ish infiltrators raid a base way off the hex.

Mauser101
2012-06-24, 01:46 PM
i dont know if other people would like it but it would be awesome if it was pitch black like on earth that way you depend on lights or infrared

Try the DayZ mod for ARMA 2 to get a view of how it actually plays. You quickly realize it's not actually that fun in practice.

The only time real life is anything approaching pitch back here on the earth is during an overcast night on a new moon. Even then after 20 or 30 minutes outside I can see just fine.

Trafalgar
2012-06-24, 02:03 PM
I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't have anything resembling crystal clear digital* vision in the dark - The darker it is, the more static in my vision. That isn't to say that I can't see in the dark. I can, my eyes still adapt to the darkness and I can discern different greys if there is some illumination (e.g. from a moon), and they actually adapt to darkness incredibly fast, but I usually just use a light because it's easier than trying to discern different grey colors while constantly changing static is interfering with my vision.

(I have no idea if that's normal or abnormal.)

* = I mean like what is presented in games.