Worry over the Stat Screen.

[Vetto]

While PS is not like most mmo, there is one thing I for see having them share.. which is some outfits holding a “you must have this good of a stat score to join” level. I know most people can argue both sides.. whereas a outfit with great players are stronger a whole... I also see how it weakens the Faction as a whole to have one group who likes to push aside learning or casual players as not worth the time.

This also could just be all for nothing and this may not appear, but can't help but feel it is a possible problem.

Any thoughts?

[maradine]

Outfits have the freedom to invite or avoid anyone they like. Do you think it should be different? Or do you not like stat tracking?

[NCLynx]

Any good outfit won't be TO worried about someones KDR (just basing this off KDR as I don't know every stat that will be shown on the list).

[Vetto]

Outfits have the freedom to invite or avoid anyone they like. Do you think it should be different? Or do you not like stat tracking?

It's not a question over outfit building the way you want, It could be more along the lines of Stat Tracking, I've seen first hand how brutal some of these Progressive guilds can be in other mmo's, To people around them and there members, I just was wondering about the community insight into these people and PS2.

[lMABl]

I see your point, but really its up to the outfit, I think they should be able to do whatever they want. Also if people really want to join an outfit that has a minimum level requirement then they should be willing to work towards that minimum.

[NEWSKIS]

In every game there are elitist clans. It really wont change much because there will be far more outfits that don't care. There will be many many outfits that would be willing to teach new players or that will just play for fun. People will be able to find just about any type of outfit that they're looking for.

[maradine]

I think it's fairly common that for any given self-organizing gaming community, there will be groups that cater strictly to performance and those that are more open - even educational. I may not have the desire (or skill level, for that matter) to run with an über-elite outfit, but I don't begrudge their existence, nor think them unhealthy to the ecology.

[p0intman]

Tbh, this happens in quite a number of MMOs where there are competitive aspects and public performance details, for example, from EVE Online:
http://noirmercs.com/showthread.php?39574-So-you-want-to-join-Noir
http://veto.get-no.de/viewtopic.php?t=8


tl;dr: its normal. its also the mark of excellence in competitive corps/guilds/outfits.

it happened in ps1, too, though to a lesser extent. still does in some corners.

[Anderz]

I think it's fairly common that for any given self-organizing gaming community, there will be groups that cater strictly to performance and those that are more open - even educational. I may not have the desire (or skill level, for that matter) to run with an über-elite outfit, but I don't begrudge their existence, nor think them unhealthy to the ecology.

Well said.

This isn't a FPS where skill is determined purely by your ability to kill; there will be an outfit for every player, no matter their style. The game is big enough to cater for everyone.

[Arcticus]

I think most outfits are wanting to achieve metagame objectives, not max stats. So, at the margin, their worst player doesn't have to be better than average, only better than nothing.

Size does matter for outfits. An outfit with 20 superstars vs an outfit with 200 average players willing to listen to their squad leaders. I think what's important is for the larger outfits to have capable leadership.

[Bags]

Yeah ps1 had plenty of outfits that let anyone in.

[Xaine]

KDR in Planetside doesn't mean someone is good.

The thing i like about PS generally is that people are always actively recruiting for outfits, more than any other MMO i've played.

If you are a good player, people will see that when they play with you.

Do you want someone who can camp in a corner and make their KDR look good, or do you want someone who actually gets into the thick of it and tries to take points and helps the team, but dies more.

If an Outfit doesn't take you because of your KDR, then they're not worth being in anyway.

[Toppopia]

KDR in Planetside doesn't mean someone is good.

The thing i like about PS generally is that people are always actively recruiting for outfits, more than any other MMO i've played.

If you are a good player, people will see that when they play with you.

Do you want someone who can camp in a corner and make their KDR look good, or do you want someone who actually gets into the thick of it and tries to take points and helps the team, but dies more.

If an Outfit doesn't take you because of your KDR, then they're not worth being in anyway.

This ^ Because in this style of game, i will see their score per minute or captures per session, and such, and decide, ahh, this person has a high medic score, he must be a good teamplayer, or, ahh, he has a high captures per session, he must be good at capturing points.

[GreatMazinkaise]

In the end, numbers always win out, so I don't see this being a problem. Being a good teamplayer is the baseline prerequisite for being a good player; everyone should have this skill. Even if you're bad at everything else, being able to follow directions allows you to be a useful contributor to any given fight, despite still being cannon fodder.

[Sifer2]

It will probably happen but IMO that's not nearly as big of a deal as how things like KDR will effect the way people play the game itself. Really don't want it to turn into Battlefield where everyone is either playing a sniper or flying a jet to farm kills. Typical FPS stats tracking doesn't reward support roles or team play all that much. Hopefully they make actually contributing to take over territory the most rewarding stat.

As for the elitist outfits themselves does it really matter? Not all outfits are going to care about your stats. Some might demand you live in a certain time zone too. Or be willing to play a certain class when they ask you to. But there will plenty to choose from.

[Nemises]

an outfit needs to be a group of friends first and foremost.

99% of the pleasure of the game is in playing with your friends (be they irl or online only)...

..there's no real value in playing for stats-value except epeen imho

[WorldOfForms]

This is good for the game. It keeps elite outfits from wasting their own and recruits' time.

Besides, if you don't like elitism, then you wouldn't want to be in an outfit like that anyway. You see an outfit has requirements and move along quickly.

[CutterJohn]

An outfit that looks at stats before allowing one to join doesn't have to worry about denying me entry, as I wouldn't apply in the first place. Our priorities in the game are clearly incompatible.

[qbert2]

I think it would be more interesting if you could use the space they have reserved for K/D and SPM and replace it with what you feel is most important to you or stats that best describe the type of play style you like. Someone might want to put the number of total revives, or number of tank kills w/ a max, etc.

That way the profile page is more about you and and what is important to you as a player and less what the designers think best describes you as a player.

...

There's always a place for players with bad stats, it just won't be in the better outfits.

Incorrect. Sturmgrenadier has not, and will not, recruit based on stats. We recruit based on maturity, ability to be a team player, and the willingness to kick ass with a group of like minded people. I know we aren't the only outfit like that either.

[Toppopia]

I think it would be more interesting if you could use the space they have reserved for K/D and SPM and replace it with what you feel is most important to you or stats that best describe the type of play style you like. Someone might want to put the number of total revives, or number of tank kills w/ a max, etc.

That way the profile page is more about you and and what is important to you as a player and less what the designers think best describes you as a player.


Sort of like BF3 how you could choose 2 dog tags, i always chose the 2nd private tag, because i thought it would be funny to see people get killed by someone who has the dogtag of the 2nd level in the game, and i had how many tanks i destroyed.

But it would be cool to customise what stats people see when they go to your profile, then if they want they can dig deeper and see the other stats, but you should beable to set which are your main stats.

Edit: Actually, maybe just make it so you can set certain stats to be 'private' or 'global' so that you can set stats to private and only you can see them.

[Grognard]

I think most outfits are wanting to achieve metagame objectives, not max stats. So, at the margin, their worst player doesn't have to be better than average, only better than nothing.

Size does matter for outfits. An outfit with 20 superstars vs an outfit with 200 average players willing to listen to their squad leaders. I think what's important is for the larger outfits to have capable leadership.

Excellent observation, agree. Recipe for success, IMO.

[Greenthy]

If you're discarded from an outfit/guild for your stats = be happy.
You're better off without them.

There are always outfits/guilds out there that perform just as well, with less elitism and a more friendly atmosphere. They just pushed you to look for them.

[sumo]

i see nothing wrong in good players wanting to play with equally good players. time can be a factor here.

it is better to have someone that can capture a point and kill people at the same time than having someone who can capture a point or get killed.

[ringring]

I think every outfit should have a vision of what it is, we certainly did.
No doubt there will be outfits that are 'invite only' and there are those that are 'open'.

Personally, I think that a variated outfit type in the game is a good thing, everyone will be able to find a home that suits them.

However, to ease your fears, it would be wrong to think that the outfits styled as 'elite' gather all the good players, they don't, there are good players in all the larger 'open' outfits.

[Vash02]

It's cute how you all try to downplay the importance of stats to give people hope, but in reality it's going to be different. They're going to matter, whether you like it or not. To some outfits they won't, but you have to ask yourself whether you want to be in an outfit that doesn't even consider them. If you don't, and you want more from the game than tagging along without making a real dent in combat, then you're going to have to make sure that your stats look at least decent. All stats are going to be visible, and they're the best indication you can have of a player's capacities without playing alongside them. It's the first filter.

There's always a place for players with bad stats, it just won't be in the better outfits.
This isnt going to be a 16 vs 16 game. It really depends on how you play. KD wont matter if you have a group of 50+ going in at the same time vs 5-10 "pro" players, those pro players are going down under those kind of numbers.

Imperial Guard outfits will be awesome.

[SKYeXile]

Incorrect. Sturmgrenadier has not, and will not, recruit based on stats. We recruit based on maturity, ability to be a team player, and the willingness to kick ass with a group of like minded people. I know we aren't the only outfit like that either.

so you dont even view a stats page?

you dont look at peoples playtime
classes
gear in other games
at least set some sort of bar for performance?

It does make the difference, and no offence, this is why SG in WOT does not remotely compete with the clans that do recruit based of stats and performance, leaders can only get make a play work somuch, then its down to the players to pull it off.

I wouldn't recruit soly off stats, though others have been known to recruit mexican dark war lords soley off killcount...but id atleast check them out first then trial them to see how well they play and meld with the rest of the guild.

[Knotz]

Some outfits might say that they don't care about stats at all... but what if someones stats say that they choose a medic every time, but never heal anyone, and die a whole bunch. What if their stats show them as a TK Griefer?

Stats are going to matter, its up to the outfits to decide which stats matter.

[Azovyr]

I will make my stats page private on day 1 and if an outfit demands I make it public I won't be joining that outfit. I think any outfit that only accepts a high K/D ratio is gonna have a very hard time in this game.

[TeaLeaf]

Considering the large outfits want to have 100+ players I don't think they will be too picky.

[Toppopia]

I will make my stats page private on day 1 and if an outfit demands I make it public I won't be joining that outfit. I think any outfit that only accepts a high K/D ratio is gonna have a very hard time in this game.

What if they want to look at your number of revives? Or hit points healed, repairs done, points captured? I guess you can just tell them, but if someone says "Heh, your K/D sucks." Then i can respond with. "Well, i heal over 500 hit points per life and revive 20 people per life, so whats more important now?" Then if they still don't think i am a good player, then they are the ones missing out on an awesome medic to run with them.

Edit: Also, another thing that worries me, most outfits might think. "We need as many people as we can invite" but if you have too many people, then you won't beable to control them all and you will have a useless outfit. Like an octopus, its brain says "I want food" then the arms do whatever is necessary to get food, because they have their own brain cells and such, so if you are a good outfit, then you will have your arms working in unison achieving a common goal, and if you are a bad outfit with too many people that you can't handle, you will end up killing yourself when your arms don't work together for a common goal. So i will only join outfits that have a good leadership role, or not too many people, or else it will get hectic, too fast.

[Greenthy]

Only an idiot would keep trying the same thing over and over even though it fails, and that's what ultimately gets reflected by their stats. Deny it and downplay all you want, it's not going to make it any less true.

I'm not advocating stat-whoring, just saying that it's going to be significant.

Not necessarily, perhaps said low k-d ratio player is always the one going in the door first, taking the hits so his buddies can kill the defenders and allow for capping.

The terran way: throw them boddies at them and they'll go down :) *GARR*

[ChipMHazard]

Only an idiot would keep trying the same thing over and over even though it fails, and that's what ultimately gets reflected by their stats. Deny it and downplay all you want, it's not going to make it any less true.

I'm not advocating stat-whoring, just saying that it's going to be significant.

It will/should only be applical to a certain degree. You can be a huge asset to your squad/outfit/faction without having to kill a lot of enemies, depending on which class/role you're playing. There are certainly stats that I would deem more important that one's KDR.
Also you're going to die a lot in a game as huge as this one.

[Dart]

Kill death ratio had never been a good measure of an effective PS player. Anyone who played the game for a long time will understand what I mean when I say kills per hour were always a better indicator of a players impact on the battlefield. That said, I expect we will require players to post their stats page when they apply for the Outfit. Not because we will have any fixed threshold but as a clan we like to know as much about guys when they apply as possible. For groups like ours, it'd more about quality than quantity so we're very selective and only about 15% of our applicants are successful. For us the stats page will be an asset.

[Azovyr]

What if they want to look at your number of revives? Or hit points healed, repairs done, points captured? I guess you can just tell them, but if someone says "Heh, your K/D sucks." Then i can respond with. "Well, i heal over 500 hit points per life and revive 20 people per life, so whats more important now?" Then if they still don't think i am a good player, then they are the ones missing out on an awesome medic to run with them.

I wish there was an option to turn off the tracking completely to be honest especially things like score per min which makes me feel rushed to do stuff. I play at my own pace and don't want some invisible clock ticking down while I do.

[Dart]

Not necessarily, perhaps said low k-d ratio player is always the one going in the door first, taking the hits so his buddies can kill the defenders and allow for capping.

The terran way: throw them boddies at them and they'll go down :) *GARR*

Pick a better door. This is one of the best things to learn in a persistent FPS and one of the first things I teach new players who run with us; if you didn't achieve something the first time (with the element of surprise) find another approach because if they beat you when they didn't know you were coming you will almost certainly lose now that they do!

[SKYeXile]

we're not just talking about K/D, get over it, if a player is breaching alot, it will be reflected in their stats by having alot of assists or something, but still decent XP per hour, since they're still doing damage. it will be shown somewhere anyway.

but even with the poor stats avalible from planetside stats, me and Abathur would go over the stats and scout potentially good recruits, we would look for med-high consistent kill counts with low hacks. we would check their certs and if that all checks out, we would then approach them in game if they wanted to trial for FC. No clue what their K/Ds are. infact i could tell you some of our players only avg like 1.5k/ds, despite having days of over 1000 kills(thats a min of 40 kills per hour even if they played 24 hours, thats far above avg.)

but i like stats, easier to see than having to logon to TR to prove a point that somebody is terrible.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/SKYeXile/19123.jpg :/

[Dart]

I wish there was an option to turn off the tracking completely to be honest especially things like score per min which makes me feel rushed to do stuff. I play at my own pace and don't want some invisible clock ticking down while I do.

Just don't look at it. Ignore the page and turn it off in game. It doesn't hurt you if other people look. It doesn't affect you at all. You certainly shouldn't feel any pressure.

As an Outfit leader i think it'll be particularly interesting when evaluating members. If one guy is dying a lot more than the other and we're always together as a group for instance, we can help him Gibbs out what the issue is.

[Forsaken One]

This is easy to fix.

Stats are mainly for the users self reflecting. there for make users able to freely mod their stats to be whatever they want. just make their whole stats a text doc on their computer. it saves server space for having to load and remember all the stats, competitive players can just not mess with their stats if they wish, while joe #5 can run around with 100/1 k/d for lulz.



E-pee tards can F off, people can reflect as they wish and do whatever with their playstyle based on their stats, everyone wins.

[Greenthy]

Pick a better door. This is one of the best things to learn in a persistent FPS and one of the first things I teach new players who run with us; if you didn't achieve something the first time (with the element of surprise) find another approach because if they beat you when they didn't know you were coming you will almost certainly lose now that they do!

If a base has 2 entrances and both are camped, which is the better door ?
No there will always be guy that tend to be the first one in and ones that are to afraid to go first. The latter are concerned with their K/D ratio, the first ones aren't.

If you've played enough PS1 you should know that there is no 'surprise' door unless the base is under- or badly defendend.

Another example is tactical play, say your outfit is one of the few on your empire's side flying around resecuring and stealing non-front bases. In those cases 80% of the time you're countered by the superior numbers doing the same on the other side: Are you then bad for your empire ? No, you're doing it all correctly but aren't rewarded with a good K/D ratio.


Now I personally cba whether they are tracked or not. I play the game to have fun, which I can do with a good K/D and a bad one, depending on the outfit I'm in.

[Dart]

This is easy to fix.

Stats are mainly for the users self reflecting. there for make users able to freely mod their stats to be whatever they want. just make their whole stats a text doc on their computer. it saves server space for having to load and remember all the stats, competitive players can just not mess with their stats if they wish, while joe #5 can run around with 100/1 k/d for lulz.



E-pee tards can F off, people can reflect as they wish and do whatever with their playstyle based on their stats, everyone wins.

You don't really understand the concept of statistics do you? They are an empirical measurement. If you can edit them at will there is no point in having them at all. Here is a better solution; anyone that is so fragile that they would be upset at seeing their empirical measurements in a computer game shouldn't look. For those of us who're adult enough to handle all those scary numbers and NOT let it eat away at our e-self esteem, we can use them as statistics are usually used; to interpret information.

If a base has 2 entrances and both are camped, which is the better door ?
No there will always be guy that tend to be the first one in and ones that are to afraid to go first. The latter are concerned with their K/D ratio, the first ones aren't.

If you've played enough PS1 you should know that there is no 'surprise' door unless the base is under- or badly defendend.

Another example is tactical play, say your outfit is one of the few on your empire's side flying around resecuring and stealing non-front bases. In those cases 80% of the time you're countered by the superior numbers doing the same on the other side: Are you then bad for your empire ? No, you're doing it all correctly but aren't rewarded with a good K/D ratio.


Now I personally cba whether they are tracked or not. I play the game to have fun, which I can do with a good K/D and a bad one, depending on the outfit I'm in.

Use a cloaker, or a max, or a grenade to surprise the defenders. Or use surge to get behind them. There will always be the first person into a room but it'd down to that individual to make his chances of survival as good as possible, stat tracking or not! The guys who keep running into the same dolor and expect a different outcome are the ones who I'm talking about.

[maddoggg]

Outfits have the freedom to accept or deny anyone.
If they want to they should be free to make it a must to have a zebra camo in order to join.

If an outfit is looking only at your stats and not how good you really are and how well you can work with a team,they are free to do so,but i wont be joining such an outfit for sure :)

[Greenthy]

Use a cloaker, or a max, or a grenade to surprise the defenders. Or use surge to get behind them. There will always be the first person into a room but it'd down to that individual to make his chances of survival as good as possible, stat tracking or not! The guys who keep running into the same dolor and expect a different outcome are the ones who I'm talking about.
In all cases the first one in will not improve his K/D ratio 80% of the time.

Now in PS2 it might not be as bad for those guys, since it'll be a bit more open.

Now I'm not scared of the stats. Even if my stats end up low and I'm outfitless, looking for an outfit: I prefer the outfits that do teamwork with a friendly/funny atmosphere. Which can coincide with high stats, but they'll be less fast to reject somebody on stats.

[Mechzz]

....

Now I'm not scared of the stats. Even if my stats end up low and I'm outfitless, looking for an outfit: I prefer the outfits that do teamwork with a friendly/funny atmosphere. Which can coincide with high stats, but they'll be less fast to reject somebody on stats.

With you on this Greenthy. I'd much rather be on with a few dudes who can have a laugh as well as enjoy the game. My ideal outfit is one that has enough players to always have a squad or two on the go, has decent leaders, has a good team ethic and has theme nights once or twice a month where we all "do" tanks or planes.

[basti]

It's not a question over outfit building the way you want, It could be more along the lines of Stat Tracking, I've seen first hand how brutal some of these Progressive guilds can be in other mmo's, To people around them and there members, I just was wondering about the community insight into these people and PS2.

Then let them be as brutal as they want. If you want to be part of a community, but the community doesnt want you, then it simply is just that way.

Stats tracking happens, always. There were outfits who asked for screenshots of your stats page and merrit progress in PS1. If they want to be that selective to their members, then let them be. There is no way to avoid it anyway, unless you remove all kind of stats completly.

[Shinjorai]

I think if a outfit is particularly elitist then most (not all) of those types of people tend to have bad attitudes and their teamwork will suffer due to that. In my opinion this game is more about teamwork than it is about stat padding min max play. I think also one thing that makes this game partiuclarly interesting, at least to me is the many MANY different ways to achieve a goal such as taking over a base, stopping an enemy push etc. I believe its important to allow all types of outfits and playstyles because ultimately thats what makes the game interesting.

The other day somebody joined my outfit and he was talking about how he wasnt the greatest FPS player in the world but that he enjoyed doing support type roles like medic or engineer. I was a support soldier in real life and its many types of soliders that win wars. One way to win a war is cut off an enemys supply lines. In the case of PS2 those supply lines mostly from what i know now consist of Galaxys bringing troops to the point of contact. If they dont have people doing the job of driving the galaxies and sunderers and people repairing those then theyre not gonna get very far. If you have a whole outfit of elitist snobs who only care about their KDR and are all pushing each other out the way to be in the spotlight then theyre not going to get very far. Thats why im so very much looking forward to this game, it allows every playstyle to shine. You can have those super elite players as well as the average joe working together in unison and when a plan comes together you and your teammates worked on then i imagine its an amazing feeling.


Im kinda bouncing all over the place here and not the best at explaining things but i just dont think theres too much to worry about. I believe all that kind've stuff will work itself out. Main thing to remember, is play the game your way and dont worry about everybody else.

[Pella]

Planetside is not gear dependent. So games such as EvE and WoW and many other MMOs. Top guilds require you to be at a certain gear skill set before joining.

When i was running Red Guard on warhammer online. We where EUs number one Guild while this created the "Most wanted" guild to join. We let anyone join. Because our skill set and demand was at a much higher level. That some people couldn't cope and left or where kicked. So the average player wouldn't have the balls to apply in fear of getting rejected.

The same kind of rules apply for the clan i'm in now. But there is a long trial period.
KD and statss means shit. When your surrounded by good players. You up your own game as the bar is raised.

Also a side note. If a outfit that requires you to have certain stats to join. Dont bother. As 99% of the time there Wannabe Elitist jerks.