check this out

[ArchAngel]

http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/Forum2/HTML/000098.html

buncha load of bs if ya ask me, they say nurf the snipers and no one shot kills, they also say if you get a headshot then it shouldnt kill you...i say if you get hit in the head by a bullet you bet your ass your dead!

[ArchAngel]

oh yea this is over in the PS forums...

[Hamma]

lol Ill have to read that one a bit later :eek:

[Lexington_Steele]

No one headshot kills. I wrote this in that thread too. It is too frustrating when you die to a single shot and you had no clue where it came from. I also think that it would make snipers too powerful.

I say take 80-90% health. A second shot that hits the same person almost anywhere would finish them off. If they have already taken any previous damage a head shot would kill them.

As a sniper you will be able to shoot from a very concealed postion at a very long distance and you won't appear on radar. I think that snipers will be very effective, even without one hit kills.

[Arglaar]

Single Shot headshot kills are the point of being a sniper.

Take Soldier of Fortune2 for example... if you shoot someone in the head, it kills them, shoot them anywhere else... it does 50-75% damage.

That is realistic. It takes alot of skill to headshot someone from a distance ... even more if they are moving to avoid being shot.



Here's how you avoid getting killed by a sniper: DON'T STAND STILL.

If you think there could be a sniper in the area, don't let them get a bead on your head.

[�io]

I'd accept 80-90% damage. Anything less thought makes the sniper useless.

Don't forget this is a MMO. Yeah you get taken out in one shot, soon afterwards the sniper is spoted and as no chance against your 2 buddies with shotguns.

If it was less the sniper would have to shoot once, run away, shoot, run away,etc. It would be dumb.

The main thing isn't really if a headshot is a kill shot, the main thing is(or at least should be) is a headshot on a moving target hard to get?

I don't mind getting poped if i'm standing still or moving at a predictable speed/patern, i deserve it but if i'm zigzaging and constantly changing speed and whatnot but the new guy still snipes me in the head then yes the sniper is overpowered.

Edit:
Here's how you avoid getting killed by a sniper: DON'T STAND STILL.
What he said. :)

[Lexington_Steele]

We are not talking about realism here. If we were then the supressor should be 1 head shot kills also. In fact any weapon should be one head shot kills.

If sniper rifles are one head shot kills people will use them in close combat.

If the sniper is dicovered then he is going to be right? Well if any single trooper who is discovered alone they will be dead.

If the sniper is concealed they are going to be very difficult to find. An they will probably be able to rain shot down for a while before they are discovered. Is it so terrible if they should have to hit a soldier with full health and armor twice to kill them?

They will be very effective without one hit kills and I think they will be too powerful if head shot are auto kills.

[Noxx]

Yes, but aren't we forgetting the real question here?
How much wood could a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chukc wood?

[Arglaar]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
Is it so terrible if they should have to hit a soldier with full health and armor twice to kill them?

They will be very effective without one hit kills and I think they will be too powerful if head shot are auto kills.

Think about what you said, in conjunction with what I said up above.


How often do you see people wearing enough armor to stop super-high velocity armor piercing rounds... On their head?

On their body, sure, but not on their head.

In my scenario outlined above, If you shoot someone in the chest, the, yes, it will take 2 shots to kill them.

Otherwise ... if you keep your head out in the open, :sniper: you're dead.

[Hamma]

IMO there should be no one shot headshot kills in this game. Just simply for the fact of balance, and the distances you have to travel to get into battle.. the armor and helmets you are wearing.. a bunch of factors.

but who knows what will happen :p

[xuur]

I've done a bit of long range shooting (ok, quite a bit) for real.

a one shot kill I think should remain in the realm of possibility but the difficulty in doing so should be made realistic.

hitting a ballon sized target at any real distance is hard...the more distance, the geometrically more difficult it becomes. hitting anything at range in a crosswind is damn near impossible at times...not to mention a moving target of that size.

yeah, keep the head shot kills in, but make sure its realistic in balance of range to shot difficulty. I think that needs to include bullet travel time, decreased long range effectivness(damage) and leading a target.

I think those factors would add alot to playing a sniper while keeping it from becoming 'uber'

[ArchAngel]

so in other words the rifles wont kill anyone in one shot kills but itll put a hole through your tank and your still okay with it? thats bs i mean think about it, a bullet puts a hole through a tank that has more armor, much more armor then any of our mobile armor suits...therefore the bullet should put a big hole in the guys head IF he gets a headshot, thats right, IF. And whats the point of a sniper if he cant get one shot kills? thats the soul purpose of being a sniper is to harrass patrol groups and get one shot kills.

However i do agree that if the sniper misses the head and gets his torso it should do less damage. Same with hitting the guys leg or arm, it shoudl do less damage then the torso shot and maybe crippling him but that would be a bit dumb...considering if that happend i do that first then get my kill...

[Hamma]

I suppose I will have to read that whole thread :ugh:

[ArchAngel]

lol its not that long... just a few 500 thousand words

[�io]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
If the sniper is dicovered then he is going to be right? Well if any single trooper who is discovered alone they will be dead.


If a NC with a shotgun is seen he has a chance. A dude with bolt driver is dead. It's a TOTALLY different gun. The bolt driver is a sniper rifle, 1 shot only then you reload. Close combat with bolt driver = dead.

Tell you what you get rid of the insane amount of armor on your MAX and i'll get rid of my head shot kills. Doesn't make sense right? That's because MAX are made to be tough, well snipers are made to be lethal.

Anywhoo no matter what the non-snipers say i very much doubt PS will be one of the rare games to not have head shot kills.

[Validuz]

IMO, if a cheat every came out, or if someone had it, it would very difficult (impossible) to tell if someone was using it or just plain good.

That enough in my mind is a perfect reason to keep the weapons balanced. No one rifle. The weapon is a no-risk weapon with HIGH range and HIGH power. No reason to need a one-shot one kill.

[ArchAngel]

wth you talking about validuz? The snipers creed is all about one shot one kill, it doesnt matter what weapon they use. No cheat will ever come out for this...look at EQ it doesnt have any cheats eather. every weapon has its own purpose. the sniper rifle for the one shot one kills at a distant range, the shotgun for Close Quarters Combat, the pistols as a sidearm, the rifles for the grunts. There ya go

[Qanamil_Rafiki]

There might be other factors, like when you use the bolt driver you have to be crouching/dropped prone.

Also, the weapons use a cone-shaped method for accuracy/firing. I would think the sniper rifle in close range even if it didn't have to reload every shot would be very ineffective 'cept for the occasional "last-ditch, I have no other choice, I hope this kills the guy" deal.

They could just make it so that you have to be stationary to even use the sniper rifle... that would easily combat that worry though and put a limitation on the usage.

[ArchAngel]

there will be no prone in ps according to the devs because its way to much work and uses too much comp resorces

[Hamma]

And it would turn it into a sniper war :D

[�io]

Originally posted by Validuz
That enough in my mind is a perfect reason to keep the weapons balanced. No one rifle. The weapon is a no-risk weapon with HIGH range and HIGH power. No reason to need a one-shot one kill.
How is it a no risk weapon??

1-Just because you're not right beside doesn't mean you're 500yards away. Don't forget you have to actually see the target. A sniper won't be that far from you if he shoots you.

2-I'm guessing (or at least it would make sense) that the sniper will have only his rifle and a pistol. Meaning as soon as he is spoted he's dead.


Also, can someone explain to me how managing to find a hiding spot and not be seen then actually having the skill to get a headshot is cheap but charging towards the enemy and unloading your 3 rounds of shotgun isn't?

Take away headshots i say take away the shotgun, up close it's a one hit kill, that's cheap. Oh and take away the rocket lauchers, those will be one hit kills too on weak armored people, that's cheap. Oh and take away the vehicles, i mean how is a small grunt suposse to fight a heavy tank?? That's very cheap!

Get my point yet? :D

[Qanamil_Rafiki]

Oh, didn't see that prone comment by the Dev's, thanks for the clear up.

[Arglaar]

Originally posted by Validuz
That enough in my mind is a perfect reason to keep the weapons balanced. No one rifle. The weapon is a no-risk weapon with HIGH range and HIGH power. No reason to need a one-shot one kill.


Yes ... the Sniper Rifle is High Power, High Range, at the expense of EXTREMELY SLOW Rate of Fire.

I.E. You get 1 shot ... better make it count.

[ArchAngel]

here here!!! DIO!!

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Dio
If a NC with a shotgun is seen he has a chance. A dude with bolt driver is dead. It's a TOTALLY different gun. The bolt driver is a sniper rifle, 1 shot only then you reload. Close combat with bolt driver = dead.

Tell you what you get rid of the insane amount of armor on your MAX and i'll get rid of my head shot kills. Doesn't make sense right? That's because MAX are made to be tough, well snipers are made to be lethal.

Anywhoo no matter what the non-snipers say i very much doubt PS will be one of the rare games to not have head shot kills.

You example is flawed for two reasons.
1) The man with the shotgun has to get up close to use to be effective. He will be seen. The sniper will be far away an will remain hidden. So it is very likeley he will not be found.

2) The sniper could have a shotgun as his secondary weapon. so he could very easily defend himself if anyone got near.

I have no clue what this has to do with a MAX. A max is not going to be very stealthy and is going to have to contend with being tageted by vehicles. A sniper will be harder to hit and harder to find.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Arglaar
Yes ... the Sniper Rifle is High Power, High Range, at the expense of EXTREMELY SLOW Rate of Fire.

I.E. You get 1 shot ... better make it count.

Make the first shot count, or the second or the third, or the fourth or the fifth, ect.

First of all, you will have nearly unlimited time for the first shot. Second, you will probably get off many other shots before you are discovered.

If you are discovered you can run away and hide and find a new position because you are far enough away.

The smart sniper will keep changing their positions after fireing a couple of shots, making them able to fire 10s of shots without being caught. Thus the sniper will be en extremely effective harrassing one man force, even if there are no one head shot kills.

Ask yourself this question. Are you thinking of game balance or are you trying to make the sniper class Uber?

[KoldFusion]

I'm not saying i want one shot kills gone for snipers..... What I am saying is that I want head shots (well, sniping in general) to be skillful. I mean it kinda goes without saying that you have to lead a target with just about any gun unless the target is standing still. A few things can be done to balance the sniping issue with everything else i think...

1) Have to lead the moving target (duh!)
2) Maybe place some other pyshical factors... like in Metal Gear... when you snipe there is some moving around.... lets face it no one can be 100% absolutley completley still.
3) If one shot kills are that terribly easy... then NERF the BEP awarded to them for the one shot kill.

All i'm saying is make sniping a bit of a challange.... something that some will be good at but others will better. I would hate to see it become a sniping fest with snipers flying up in BEP so fast that other player types will lag far behind.

**If you want to flame.... do us all a favor and keep it to your self**

If you just want to discuss and voice your opinion about what i have said feel free :)

[Hamma]

Always controversy over snipers :D

[NapalmEnima]

As far as the whole "snipers not being detected after shooting" thing goes...

Think about the muzzel flares we've seen. Everything has this big, pretty muzzel flare (I'm guessing the SMG won't).

So that first shot is going to be accompanied by a first flare. Probably a big one.

Congrats, people now know where you are. They're coming for you. Start running.


Only you can't have a vehicle right there, 'cause the radar blip will give you away. Sucks to be you. Perhaps the Basalisk won't... perhaps.

So you either don't have a ride, or you're far enough away to be outside radar range.

And being that far away may make consistent head-shots impossible (the whole "cone-of-fire" thang) So you'll have to go for the body, which will further reduce your chances at a 1-shot kill.

And a decent base D will have some fast patrol vehicle roaming about... aircdraft or buggies or something.


I'm thinking sniping won't be all some of you are building it up to be.

[Arglaar]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
Ask yourself this question. Are you thinking of game balance or are you trying to make the sniper class Uber?


I'm trying to make the Sniper what it is supposed to be ...

A sniper.

[Lexington_Steele]

But are you disregarding game balance to make a sniper a sniper?(realism should come second to keeping the game fun and balanced)

PS is a MMOFPS, not a simulator.

We shall have to wait and see once the beta starts. If sniper are too good, they will get nerfed. If they are too weak, they will get a boost.

[�io]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
You example is flawed for two reasons.
1) The man with the shotgun has to get up close to use to be effective. He will be seen. The sniper will be far away an will remain hidden. So it is very likeley he will not be found. And as i said i doubt the sniper can accuratly shoot from 500 yards away.

2) The sniper could have a shotgun as his secondary weapon. so he could very easily defend himself if anyone got near.

I have no clue what this has to do with a MAX. A max is not going to be very stealthy and is going to have to contend with being tageted by vehicles. A sniper will be harder to hit and harder to find.

1)The guy with the shotgun can remain hidden pretty easily if there's hills and forests nearby and even if he is seen he still charge up to the enemy and boom.

2)As i said i'm guessing that the sniper will have only the rifle and pistol(or at least it would make sense).


And now to explain why the MAX is there. I refer you to the above post you just made.

realism should come second to keeping the game fun and balanced

Now tell me how removing the realism from a sniper to balance a game is ok but not removing the realism from a MAX. You want to remove the headshots because they are too powerful. Well guess what so is the MAX. Anything less than a tank will be dead against a MAX. Oh and forget tanks we gotta remove those from the game too. How can a simple grunt with a shotgun win against a tank? That's no fun and it's not balanced!

[Lexington_Steele]

Answer me this question Dio: why aren't they going make pistol shots to the head cause insta-kills?

[Tobias]

Wow i go away for a few hours (like 9?) and all this talk.
Head shot should havce a chance to kill, if you are shooting something like a max or heavy armor you should get hurt but not insta kill, anything else 90% of head shots should kill. Oks you say that thats over powered, look at the assualt rifles, just a little less rangle and alot faster fire (short controled bursts by 3 people with decent aim and 1 dead sniper....if they have scope that is)

Now i have some shooting experiance myself, and with a zeroed weapon, in the supported prone possision (sling or little stand deal) most good shots, myself included, will hit what they are aiming at. But in PS there is only standing and unsupported kneeling. Standing and trying to hit a head at that range aint gonna happen, and unsupported kneeling is going to be hard. It takes a good shot about 8 secounds to line up the shot, steady, and fire, and with a Zeroed weapon and little wind that guy will hit, but with wind then things can get screwed up, unless you ajust windage, but i dont think the game will be that detiled, so yes, i think head shots should be one shot kills, but how many people can make a head shot? Few i should hope, unless your in Kneeling and realy close that is.

Also the Bolt driver is high volocity, high power, so it should screw you up where ever it hits you.


P.S. Go ask all your sniper buddies or even army buddys how many snipers actually shoot at peoples heads, and how many just shoot you in the chest, but then thats real life, and this is a game.

[�io]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
Answer me this question Dio: why aren't they going make pistol shots to the head cause insta-kills?

Well see if they don't it's stupid.

IIf you can get close enough to aim for a headshot i'm all for an instant kill with pistol but you have to be close, the pistol isn't made like the sniper, the sniper rifle is made to lethally shoot someone from afar that's why it's so big and is 1 shot/reload.

Same goes for rockets, i think it's only normal you die if you eat a rocket. I would expect no less.

That's the key thing to remember every gun has it's advantage, if you take away the sniper rifle's 1 shot kills then you might as well take away the chaingun's rapid fire or the shotgun's blast,etc

[KoldFusion]

How sweet would it be to get the big ass gun from Eraser!! If you haven't seen it..... it is an AHHHHNOLD flick where there is a super rfile that shoots bullets faster than light and has xray vision and can pierce anything :) ok ok.... that would be a bit unfair..... given the nature of that weapon the Vanu would probably have it which would suck for me :)

[Unregistered]

Can someone give me the readers digest version of this thread so i don't have to read all 3 pages?

[�io]

Originally posted by Unregistered
Can someone give me the readers digest version of this thread so i don't have to read all 3 pages?

Non-snipers want headshots to not be 1 hit kill. Snipers want 1 hit kills and a few want 2 hit kills.

Add much debate and that's about it. :D


And here's my final take on what should happen to sniper rifle more or less.

Light armor(scout,cloak,etc)
Headshot = kill
Body = 75%
Limbs = 40-50%

Med armor
Headshot = 75%
Body = 40-50%
Limbs = 25%

Max armor
Headshot = 35-50%
Body = 15-20%
Limbs = 5-10%

[Tobias]

Oks, us Vanu who are going to be snipers want head shot kills and high damage to body, the haters want no head shots and/or low damage.

They are hating on the bolt driver and Vanu, thats about akll 3 pages.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Dio
Well see if they don't it's stupid.

IIf you can get close enough to aim for a headshot i'm all for an instant kill with pistol but you have to be close, the pistol isn't made like the sniper, the sniper rifle is made to lethally shoot someone from afar that's why it's so big and is 1 shot/reload.

That's the key thing to remember every gun has it's advantage, if you take away the sniper rifle's 1 shot kills then you might as well take away the chaingun's rapid fire or the shotgun's blast,etc

I am not sure if I understood you. Are you saying that all weapons should be one hit kills to the head?

I believe that a pistol was designed to lethaly shoot people from afar (just not as far away or as accurate with a rifle)

What are the sniper rifles advantages without one hit kills as compared the chain gun? The advantages are: each shot does more damage, it has a much longer range, it has a much better scope, and it is closer to pistol perfect aim. I think that is plenty of reasons to use the sniper rifle, even if there are no one hit kills.

Do you really think that snipers will have no usefullness without 1 hit kills? So if one hit kills are put in and it is made too difficult, for you to get one hit kills, you will be useless as a sniper?

[Unregistered]

ok, refer to my post about Helmets in the other thread.

Oh, and I'm not h8'ing on the Vanu, I think you guys are funny :D

[Airlift]

I say mad love to the armor makers...

1 shot to scout head: 95% of total potential health
1 shot to scout body: 80% of total potential health
1 shot medium head: 90% of total potential health
1 shot medium body: 70% of total potential health
1 shot heavy head: 80% of total potential health
1 shot heavy body: 50% of total potential health
1 shot MAX head: 40% of total potential health
1 shot MAX body: 20% of total potential health

[Tobias]

that sounds almost fair, but if you want that damage table i want my sniper rifle to shoot though doors.

[Arglaar]

You want that damage table?

I want the RoF on the sniper rifle set to semi-automatic so I can pull off 2 quick shots and kill you before you know what hit you.

[Airlift]

Good luck punching thru the hull of my vehicle with those two shots.

[Tobias]

But your in Galaxy, king of the Air, nothing can kill you airlift.

[Unregistered]

If a sniper can shoot someone that is inside a vechicle this game isn't going to make it.

[Hamma]

Yea that would suck, I blieve you can snipe people in cockpits.. I dont remember where i read that tho :[

[NapalmEnima]

No no no...


You can snipe people you have LOS on. Like people driving the basalisk 4-wheeler, or the Harasser dune buggy. Open cockpits (or no cockpit at all).

I don't think you need to worry about getting shot within a Galaxy, or a tank, or an APC, or a...

[Lexington_Steele]

I remeber reading something about being able to hit people in cockpits. Somthing to the effect of "if you aim correctly you can kill them without damaging the vehicle."

I will try to find the quote later

[Tobias]

your thinking of the dev chat, and they also said some things have enternal or protected cocpits, so you cant be hit, like the Galaxy, King of the Air.

[Qanamil_Rafiki]

Depends on the visibility and structure of the windows on that galaxy's cockpit, I guess.

I'm going to guess that they will allow it (killing galaxy/eternal cockpit peeps) to begin with in beta, and adjust it if it's too easy/powerful.

[Lexington_Steele]

the question:
#4. Damage on vehicles. Bullet vs. Rocket? shooting the driver?

Dave's answer:
"Standard bullets work best vs. humans. AP bullets work best against heavies and vehicles and equipment. Yes...you can shoot the driver. Our collision code is amazing in this respect. You can shoot through a window and hit the player inside without damaging the vehicle if you're accurate enough."

I am not sure if this means only open windows or if it means through the closed window of the cockpit of a galaxy or a mosquito.