Reality check -- playing PS1 for the past three days

[Rivenshield]

It's been a blast, and can only get better throughout July. Old friends, old names, recollections of epic struggles with new ones to fight. And it forced a number of game design issues upon me afresh -- ones we've been arguing about in exhaustive detail for months. It made me see them clearly through fresh experience, rather than through the looking-glass of nostalgia....

1) Fuck BFR's. Fuck them in the ear. I'd forgotten how badly I hate them. They have mobility, overwhelming firepower, and are impossibly freaking hard to kill. Ditto on the Galaxy gunship. Nothing that just sits there and farms you while you repeatedly throw everything you have at it should be in a first person shooter. They're game breakers.

2) It is exasperatingly difficult to get gunners, even when you broadcast hey, Raider loading up at the front door, hop in and ride in style... and then spam WE NEED A GUNNER! at the line of foot zergers streaming past you and out the front gate. I still think single-manned armor is an iffy idea, but..... I understand it much better now, and I am much more willing to give it the college try than I was a week ago.

3) The new system of forgiving grief will be a blessing -- particularly those of us who can't do twitchy-combat for beans and largely rely on grenade launchers and Pounder MAXes. It's hard to shoot around or above people when they are strafing back and forth in front of you like a congo line on a caffeine high.

4) Whatever resource system they come up with needs to be simple and comprehensible, because I can't understand what mods give you access to which base features *now,* and I was there when they introduced most of it. It's a tangled mess that grew almost organically over the several years I played, and seems to have gotten more complex after I left.

5) The time to kill with handheld weapons against other infantry in PS1 seems to be just right. I can't imagine it being worse, what with the vast new territory we have to cover and the gigantic bases we'll have to fight in. 'Spawn, run for a full minute, AHH I'M BEING SHOT AT DODGE SHOOT BLARGH respawn' being replaced by 'spawn, run for TWO minutes, DIE INSTANTLY' is not much of an improvement no matter how nice the graphics are.

6) The TTK for most ground vehicles is far too long. I remember the Decimator before it got nerfed, and it was a good anti-armor weapon. Now it's an armor-annoyance weapon that I haven't scored a single kill with in three days. We need something we can carry around and definitively thump enemy vehicles with, as it was of old. Even some kind of dedicated anti-tank mine would be nice -- something that goes off like a squib if a soldier or light vehicle runs over it, but blows half of the health off a Vanguard.

7) I still get completely disoriented and run around for fruitless frustrating minutes trying to find things like the vehicle pad or the gen room. These new big giant bases better have a user-friendly map you can bring up in your HUD, with everything clearly labeled.

8) I'd forgotten how much fun being a cloaker was. It put a great big grin on my face. And I found myself thinking, yes, I would LOVE to pack a sniper rifle and cloak while I position myself. Not being able to take the thing out while I'm cloaked would be fine with me. I imagined it from my own POV -- a bunch of goddam Vanu cloakers running around with ray-gun sniper rifles, say -- and how I would feel about that... and figured, hey. As long as I can see them while they're SHOOTING at me, that's gravy. It adds spice and zest and more sneaky challenges to the thing. I predict there are going to be whole mass duels between the new sniper class and their wholly-cloaked counterparts that are out there trying to kill them, and they will be delightfully nerve-wracking.

9) Despite my grousing about their foot-zerging habits, my beloved TR is much as I remember it. They demonstrably lay more mines, pull more AMS's, do more ANT runs, and fix/heal/help each other more than our enemies do. If we can preserve that Psychotic Combat Engineer corporate culture when we transition to PS2, I'll be well content.

Anyone else been playing, rediscovering old loves and ancient frustrations, and pondered what they portend for PS2? And of our hopes and fears for it?

[AThreatToYou]

Uh, #1... BFRs were nerfed into oblivion. They are worthless now. Their only use is that they have regenerating shielding.

[Razicator]

Decis are OP as hell against a MAX unit. Making them more powerfu would destroy maxes completely, not that they're already useless except for the AA one.

[AThreatToYou]

I'm fairly certain in PlanetSide 1, the damages of everything versus everything can be hard-coded to where a decimator's damage won't change vs a MAX unit even if they buff its damage versus all vehicles. And MAXs are hardly underpowered, but decis don't need to do more damage to them, that is for sure.

That kind of direct-balance tweaking might be necessary for PlanetSide 2.

[RedKnights]

1) Yea one competent soldier can take down a BFR regardless of how well it's piloted, they're more than balanced now. Same goes for the GG, it's a huge target, very easy to pick off.

2) I hear you, I immediately understood why they did it.

6) Do not shoot the Decimator at vehicles, use the lancer/Stryker

But I agree, it's super nice to see some of those massive battles again!

[BuzzCutPsycho]

All it's done is reminded me why I quit so many years ago. Bring on PS2 because the big piece of shit known as PS1 needs to be put down.

Remember it for what it was, not what it is.

[CutterJohn]

2) It is exasperatingly difficult to get gunners

Raider


Think I found your problem.. :rofl:

5) The time to kill with handheld weapons against other infantry in PS1 seems to be just right. I can't imagine it being worse, what with the vast new territory we have to cover and the gigantic bases we'll have to fight in. 'Spawn, run for a full minute, AHH I'M BEING SHOT AT DODGE SHOOT BLARGH respawn' being replaced by 'spawn, run for TWO minutes, DIE INSTANTLY' is not much of an improvement no matter how nice the graphics are.

6) The TTK for most ground vehicles is far too long. I remember the Decimator before it got nerfed, and it was a good anti-armor weapon. Now it's an armor-annoyance weapon that I haven't scored a single kill with in three days. We need something we can carry around and definitively thump enemy vehicles with, as it was of old. Even some kind of dedicated anti-tank mine would be nice -- something that goes off like a squib if a soldier or light vehicle runs over it, but blows half of the health off a Vanguard.



Its curious you put these together. TTK on vehicles is long for the very reasons you don't want a short ttk on infantry... it takes a long time to get back to the battle. Infantry at least has the option of spawns right nearby, and doesn't have a 5 minute cooldown. If you die in a vehicle, you have to spawn back at another base, run to the pad, grab a vehicle, drive back to the fight. All of which can take several minutes. As you put it, nobody wants to spend several minutes getting to a fight then instantly dying.

[Rivenshield]

All it's done is reminded me why I quit so many years ago.

That's funny. I swore I coulda seen you out there the night before last....

[Sirisian]

2) It is exasperatingly difficult to get gunners, even when you broadcast hey, Raider loading up at the front door, hop in and ride in style... [...]
This is exactly why I was shocked they added a Sunderer even when we already have a Galaxy. They really needed to focus ground vehicles on single and two person designs. People have weird thoughts on forumside about multicrew vehicles. They often get disconnected with the reality of the game and how players actually play.

[Canaris]

Originally Posted by Rivenshield
2) It is exasperatingly difficult to get gunners

Quote:
Raider

Think I found your problem.. :rofl:

I can see you never tried out the TR Navy tactic, a platoon rocking the Raiders can be an extremely devastating team, hell we even smashed a larger force of Magriders the supposed kings of the waves and scared off/blew up everything that was thrown at us. Raiders rule! :D

[oosik]

It's been a blast, and can only get better throughout July. Old friends, old names, recollections of epic struggles with new ones to fight. And it forced a number of game design issues upon me afresh -- ones we've been arguing about in exhaustive detail for months. It made me see them clearly through fresh experience, rather than through the looking-glass of nostalgia....

1) Fuck BFR's. Fuck them in the ear. I'd forgotten how badly I hate them. They have mobility, overwhelming firepower, and are impossibly freaking hard to kill. Ditto on the Galaxy gunship. Nothing that just sits there and farms you while you repeatedly throw everything you have at it should be in a first person shooter. They're game breakers.

2) It is exasperatingly difficult to get gunners, even when you broadcast hey, Raider loading up at the front door, hop in and ride in style... and then spam WE NEED A GUNNER! at the line of foot zergers streaming past you and out the front gate. I still think single-manned armor is an iffy idea, but..... I understand it much better now, and I am much more willing to give it the college try than I was a week ago.

3) The new system of forgiving grief will be a blessing -- particularly those of us who can't do twitchy-combat for beans and largely rely on grenade launchers and Pounder MAXes. It's hard to shoot around or above people when they are strafing back and forth in front of you like a congo line on a caffeine high.

4) Whatever resource system they come up with needs to be simple and comprehensible, because I can't understand what mods give you access to which base features *now,* and I was there when they introduced most of it. It's a tangled mess that grew almost organically over the several years I played, and seems to have gotten more complex after I left.

5) The time to kill with handheld weapons against other infantry in PS1 seems to be just right. I can't imagine it being worse, what with the vast new territory we have to cover and the gigantic bases we'll have to fight in. 'Spawn, run for a full minute, AHH I'M BEING SHOT AT DODGE SHOOT BLARGH respawn' being replaced by 'spawn, run for TWO minutes, DIE INSTANTLY' is not much of an improvement no matter how nice the graphics are.

6) The TTK for most ground vehicles is far too long. I remember the Decimator before it got nerfed, and it was a good anti-armor weapon. Now it's an armor-annoyance weapon that I haven't scored a single kill with in three days. We need something we can carry around and definitively thump enemy vehicles with, as it was of old. Even some kind of dedicated anti-tank mine would be nice -- something that goes off like a squib if a soldier or light vehicle runs over it, but blows half of the health off a Vanguard.

7) I still get completely disoriented and run around for fruitless frustrating minutes trying to find things like the vehicle pad or the gen room. These new big giant bases better have a user-friendly map you can bring up in your HUD, with everything clearly labeled.

8) I'd forgotten how much fun being a cloaker was. It put a great big grin on my face. And I found myself thinking, yes, I would LOVE to pack a sniper rifle and cloak while I position myself. Not being able to take the thing out while I'm cloaked would be fine with me. I imagined it from my own POV -- a bunch of goddam Vanu cloakers running around with ray-gun sniper rifles, say -- and how I would feel about that... and figured, hey. As long as I can see them while they're SHOOTING at me, that's gravy. It adds spice and zest and more sneaky challenges to the thing. I predict there are going to be whole mass duels between the new sniper class and their wholly-cloaked counterparts that are out there trying to kill them, and they will be delightfully nerve-wracking.

9) Despite my grousing about their foot-zerging habits, my beloved TR is much as I remember it. They demonstrably lay more mines, pull more AMS's, do more ANT runs, and fix/heal/help each other more than our enemies do. If we can preserve that Psychotic Combat Engineer corporate culture when we transition to PS2, I'll be well content.

Anyone else been playing, rediscovering old loves and ancient frustrations, and pondered what they portend for PS2? And of our hopes and fears for it?

I've been back for three months (quit in mid-2004) and have played 4-10 hours a day, every day. The game is much better design-wise than when I left, and has been tremendous fun. As regards your points:

1) BFRs. I am glad they won't make it into ps2. But I have noticed with the increase in population the past few days that they aren't as game breaking as they seemed to be earlier, probably due to them being a magnet for every reaver, tank, stryker, and av weapon in the vicinity.

2) I understand about getting gunners. But getting into a squad and outfit helps a lot.

3) check fire. If you check fire when you start to get grief, you won't be affected that much. I've never been over 300 grief in 3 months and I run pounder max all the time.

6) I disagree. Vehicle TTK seems just right to me.

9) I also ran and run TR exclusively. To me the TR seem much better at repairing, ant runs, and coordination than they did in 03-04. Sure you get the global spam, but quite often the core leadership group seems right on target with their broadcasts.

One thing you didn't mention: orbital strikes. If they are in ps2, I hope they are quite limited both in time and resource cost. They should be utilized strategically at critical battle points, not just to take out a turret you are pissed at or during a minor tower battle.

And another: The engineering changes in 2007 were great. I've been running advanced engineer for at least 2 months and love the changes from 03-04. I hope the ps2 engineers are just as good at aiding the battle.

The past few days with the pop-locked continents (queues? What the heck is a queue? Oh, I see.) have been hellaciously fun, and sometimes hilarious. Like the NC guy today who did a drop on Wakea tower without an emp and ran towards a spit to fire at: a spit right next to my turret. Needless to say, I killed him before the spit did. :-)

[Vanu Techpriest]

Loaded up PS1 for the first time since it released and I'm getting my ass handed to me. I think the TTK might be too high but that could be because I don't know what the hell I'm doing.

Example: I shoot someone with the default shotgun 4 times at close range and they don't die. Five minutes later an NC rolls up and destroys me in 2 shots with his super shotgun. I guess I just need to figure out which weapons are good.

Overall I'm hoping that PS2 has a TTK similar to Battlefield 3. Maybe slightly longer.

[Night]

Loaded up PS1 for the first time since it released and I'm getting my ass handed to me. I think the TTK might be too high but that could be because I don't know what the hell I'm doing.

Example: I shoot someone with the default shotgun 4 times at close range and they don't die. Five minutes later an NC rolls up and destroys me in 2 shots with his super shotgun. I guess I just need to figure out which weapons are good.

Overall I'm hoping that PS2 has a TTK similar to Battlefield 3. Maybe slightly longer.

Its because PS1 is and has always been a game about the best ping. The players with better connection to the server will dance around you Matrix style :groovy:. Its not a coincidence the top killers of PS1 was Dutch and neighbors with the server. I really hope they got this solved for PS2.

[Razicator]

After a few hours today and yesterday I've come to the conclusion that TTK on infantry is definitely too high for my taste in this game. This is because aiming in Planetside is way too easy for it to make any significant difference. The only factors that make it harder are network lag and the inconsistency in how the game feels. The mouse control is horrible and sometimes it feels a lot faster than other times.

Smart movement is also irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you try to flank people or sneak up to them using blind spots, they all have audio amp and there's always enough time to turn around and return fire due to the high TTK and the fact that the weapons generally have pathetic range. You need to be really close to someone for a Jackhammer or even MCG to be effective, so there's a pretty big chance they will see you on radar, giving them the opportunity to turn it into an AADADADADA strafing fest and canceling out any plan for attack.

Spam is still completely out of control. It's never been different, but all of this reminded me again of why at some point many years ago I simply stopped caring about it and sat in my Reaver 24/7. There's just barely any skill in the infantry game in Planetside.

I like the TTK, it's higher than CoD/BF but lower than Halo. If TTKs were as high as Halo's weapons (outside of grenades/power weapons), then things would get much more crowded in tight spaces.

[Bags]

MY only complaint is how badly it runs on my pc and the bad netcode... heh.

Oh, and the cycler. That gun is so bad.

[Gloworm]

I loved this game so many years back, and was looking forward to playing it again, but damn the ttk is annoying, i almost exclusively play bfbc2 as sniper, so i'm used to things happening alot faster, and ust got too frustrated playing this again, but still love the game regardless.!

I should add, i had to make a completely new character cause my old one from Werner seems to have gone AWOL :(

[Razicator]

It also feels very weird actively aiming ahead of an enemy to account for laga. I'm so used to now actually shooting at the enemy model, or at most very slightly ahead for bullet travel time in Battlefield or Halo or CoD.

[TAA]

I like the TTK, it's higher than CoD/BF but lower than Halo. If TTKs were as high as Halo's weapons (outside of grenades/power weapons), then things would get much more crowded in tight spaces.

That is way too high. I really hope it is lower in PS2 to be at most similar to BF.

[Gloworm]

And waiting for the reticule on the bolt driver to shrink down is just sooooo annoying, in my opinion it takes so much of the thrill of a sniper duel out of the equation!

[OutlawDr]

After a few hours today and yesterday I've come to the conclusion that TTK on infantry is definitely too high for my taste in this game. This is because aiming in Planetside is way too easy for it to make any significant difference. The only factors that make it harder are network lag and the inconsistency in how the game feels. The mouse control is horrible and sometimes it feels a lot faster than other times.

Smart movement is also irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you try to flank people or sneak up to them using blind spots, they all have audio amp and there's always enough time to turn around and return fire due to the high TTK and the fact that the weapons generally have pathetic range. You need to be really close to someone for a Jackhammer or even MCG to be effective, so there's a pretty big chance they will see you on radar, giving them the opportunity to turn it into an AADADADADA strafing fest and canceling out any plan for attack.

Spam is still completely out of control. It's never been different, but all of this reminded me again of why at some point many years ago I simply stopped caring about it and sat in my Reaver 24/7. There's just barely any skill in the infantry game in Planetside.

Yep. I've been playing again the last couple days, and...holy shit infantry combat is awful. I remember it being bad, but there is simpy nothing to enjoy about it anymore.

[The noob]

That is way too high. I really hope it is lower in PS2 to be at most similar to BF.

Hmmm, when it comes to TTK, I think that BF2 and 2142 got it right in terms of TTK for large scale warfale. It's slow enough that if you're shot at from a distance, you'll probably have time for fight or flight, but if someone sneaks up on you because you and/or your squad wasn't attentive or watching your flanks, you'll very likely have either a very biased fight on your hands, or more likely than not, out right lose.

[TAA]

Hmmm, when it comes to TTK, I think that BF2 and 2142 got it right in terms of TTK for large scale warfale. It's slow enough that if you're shot at from a distance, you'll probably have time for fight or flight, but if someone sneaks up on you because you and/or your squad wasn't attentive or watching your flanks, you'll very likely have either a very biased fight on your hands, or more likely than not, out right lose.


I do agree with you, even though since COD4 introduced me to HC mode I have never gone back to 'normal' TTK modes. At least in BF2/2142 getting the drop on people in close combat would reward you with letting you kill them before they could even react properly.

[Shade Millith]

I've done the same thing as you OP, playing the game. However, I disagree with you so much on this -

1) Fuck BFR's. Fuck them in the ear. I'd forgotten how badly I hate them. They have mobility, overwhelming firepower, and are impossibly freaking hard to kill. Ditto on the Galaxy gunship. Nothing that just sits there and farms you while you repeatedly throw everything you have at it should be in a first person shooter. They're game breakers.

Yea, if you're a tank. Or an idiot. In the week I've been back I've already soloed two of them.

I've said this many times before, and too few people seem to listen. INFANTRY WEAPONS.

Infantry rifles/Sniper rifles go through the shield, and do damage to the various subsystems.. Hit the shield gen on the back, and suddenly that shield is down.

Get a mossie, jammer grenades, and Decimator. Drop on top of one, on the way down throw a jammer grenade, then get under the shield and pop it with Decimators. You'll either cripple it, or kill it.

Hell, I find them easier to deal with than a tank.

[Rivenshield]

Hmmm, when it comes to TTK, I think that BF2 and 2142 got it right in terms of TTK for large scale warfale. It's slow enough that if you're shot at from a distance, you'll probably have time for fight or flight, but if someone sneaks up on you because you and/or your squad wasn't attentive or watching your flanks, you'll very likely have either a very biased fight on your hands, or more likely than not, out right lose.

/nod

Upon reflection, I concur. You're exactly right. It rewards the resourceful sneaky guy but gives the tyro a chance, at least at mid-long range. I honestly never raged at anything in BF2142 like I did in PS1....

...but then I never loved it anywhere near as much.

I remember my first poplocked fight very clearly -- it was on one of the desert continents, the one with the big high soaring rock formations you could actually run up on and snipe from, with that lush desert-y track by Don Ferrone -- and it actually scared me a little. I thought, Jesus H. Christ, this isn't a GAME. It's war, a real war, fought in a virtual environment. It's two or three self-organizing swarms trying to maul each other to death. And here I am in the middle of it. And I really love what's special about the gadgets and mentality of my faction, because they are keeping me alive.

We must have all felt that way at one time or another, or we wouldn't still be here.

[Brusi]

Such a terrible rant

[WorldOfForms]

Gunner BFRs are fairly balanced these days, but the Flight BFRs are still insanely good. The only reason people think they are bad is because pilots are pretty much all terrible players. I'm only an OK player but I can go 30/1 K/D piloting a Flight BFR (and this includes eating MBTs for breakfast) without breaking a sweat. Bad players never believe me, and yet I've done it more times than I can count.

[Figment]

Think I found your problem.. :rofl:

Indeed. The Raider is the most useless unit in terms of manpower. That's exactly the issue we've been talking about regarding the Driver/Gunner thing: manpower optimization.



In contrast, it's incredibly easy to get gunners for a Thunderer. Try it.

We rolled 5 and before my outfit mates could get in two and a half of our Thundies were filled with gunners (never heard of randoms without outfit and virtually no spots for my platoon of 22 left).




Also on the point about infils. I don't think the OP realises that the infil in PS2 will cloak for a total of 15 seconds with sniper rifle (we've yet to see how long it lasts without a sniper rifle). I still hate the PS2 cloaker design with a passion, because the PS1 is about stealth skill that actually lets you infiltrate enemy lines. 15 seconds or something temporary would mean you can't pull of any infiltration past a defended chokepoint and get constantly killed after being detected.

Getting away is tricky while cloaked. Getting away while visible is ridiculously hard for an infil. They're not supposed to be combattants first and foremost so they shouldn't force it.

I can see you never tried out the TR Navy tactic, a platoon rocking the Raiders can be an extremely devastating team, hell we even smashed a larger force of Magriders the supposed kings of the waves and scared off/blew up everything that was thrown at us. Raiders rule! :D

That platoon would however have been MORE devastating had you invested in Deliverers, thanks to the additional armour of the extra units giving you more time to put out damage and more chance of survival.

[BuzzCutPsycho]

That's funny. I swore I coulda seen you out there the night before last....

Well no shit?

How else would I have been able to play it and therefore be reminded of why I quit had I not actually logged in and played again?

[Canaris]

That platoon would however have been MORE devastating had you invested in Deliverers, thanks to the additional armour of the extra units giving you more time to put out damage and more chance of survival.

we did both and the Raiders worked out better and were way more fun

[Figment]

Hmm. Curious. I'll just keep a raised eyebrow and wonder if it's because you stuck closer together that time around as everyone had to be in the same area and fire at the same units or some other circumstances were different, or if perhaps the approach angle and overall driving was better.

Just out of interest, you feel there were any other circumstances (amount of opposition) or differences in organizational level?

Because we've always found our group to be more effective with Deliverers after toying with NC Raiders for fun and dps maths suggest it should be.

Armour levels are the same, speed is slightly different (thought Deli was fastest), so if your Deli dies to enemy opposition, the Raider should too, while at the same time people focus fire on one Raider instead of two Delis. And when a Raider dies that should be taking a lot more firepower away in one blow.

Meaning it's virtually impossible for a Raider to perform better than two Deliverers and I'm curious to find out how you pulled it off. :)

[Captain1nsaneo]

My friends, it has often been said that I like sniping. Friends, I like sniping. No, friends, I love sniping!
I love contlocks. I love field fights. I love defensive sniping. I love offensive sniping.
Sniping across fields, in bases, on walls, in grass, on frozen tundra, through deserts, from the beach, from a tree. I love every aspect of sniping that can occur in Planetside.
I love hitting enemies at 400m. My heart leaps with joy whenever teams of snipers mark the unwitting for death, and there is nothing like killing a rezing medic. And the feeling when a soldier runs for the safety of a base only to be cut down by a bolt just short of the threshold, is such an exquisite feeling.
Like when enemy snipers brandish their rifles from behind cover. It moves me deep within my heart to watch a rookie hiding behind cover that just isn't quite high enough to cover his hitbox.
The sight of cloakers being caught trying to sneak past is an irresistible pleasure. And there is nothing more arousing, than the sound of a failed boomer attempt.
When a band of pitiful NC makes their final defense of their AMS in nothing but spawn gear, only to have 5 snipers race for their BEP, I am in ecstasy.
I love it when my allies are broken by the TR. It's so sad to see bases and towers that were supposed to be defended being taken, their backpacks violated. I love being forced out by scorpions. The humiliation as my rounds go just wide, ducking the second round in a duel to go heal.
Gentlemen, all I ask for is sniping. An infantry fight so vast as to make the server itself tremble. Gentlemen, I ask you as fellow brothers in arms, what is it that you really want? Do you wish for sniping as I do? Do you wish for merciless and tireless sniping? A duel whose field is built with iron, and lightning, and fire? Do you ask for sniping so complete that not even cloakers are left to scavenge the dead?

(Repurposed from Helling)

So yeah, I like sniping and think the current mechanics are fine. Sure it's a pain to have to compensate for both travel time and the target's movement but that makes hitting them at draw distance all the sweeter. I don't care much for more recent sniping because the rifles are too powerful for me to consider it fair and thus enjoyable or the maps are based around close range fights and I prefer extreme range sniping. (In BF2 I used to pick people off of the TV heli spawn in Sharqi from max draw distance with head shots. Love that drop.)

tl;dr: Sniping is best when it's high risk/reward and difficult. Otherwise there's no enjoyment for pulling off hard shots. It's similar to how people like getting melee kills (Source: Valve). People like pulling off difficult things.


OH WAIT.

Sorry, the comments about sniping being bad stirred me. So yeah.

1: BFRs are essentially coffins these days. They're only good for getting mow kills. (well the VS one is)

2: Raiders are a problem to man but you're also asking in the wrong place. You'll have much better luck at a front line AMS as almost everyone who's gone back to base is there to pull their own vehicle not crew one. The best way to deal with it though is to work with a squad or with your outfit but for randoms it is a problem but I like to think of it as encouraging people to get in squads.

3: I've rarely ever had problems with grief and I used to heavily use a thumper. It does become a problem when defending extremely crowded bases like an interlink.

4: Mods are fairly easy to understand as far as I'm aware though I could definitely understand someone being confused about them after enough time away.

5: I agree with you on this, I think that the devs will find out that the TTK is much too high once we hit beta but there's nothing we can point to yet to prove it.

6: I think they're fine, you might be having trouble with the lightning though as it did get an armor buff (as did the reaver because AA got a buff [AA turret] to counter the gunship and this is all far too stupid.)

7: Quick tip, enlarge your minimap. Mine is huge compared to what it starts at. Helps a ton if you don't have layouts memorized.

8: Cloaking is awesome. Hard to get BEP doing it but having a small inventory, limited arsenal, and dying to a stiff breeze is worth being invisible permanently for. I hope that style of cloak makes it into PS2. My only worry would be that only cloakers could have sniper rifles turning sniper duels into whoever sees the other first wins. Wouldn't mind sniping as a heavy assault if it meant I could soak a round. Otherwise we'll have to play shoot once and move which doesn't work out sometimes as there sometimes aren't multiple spots to shoot from.

9: If you only play TR how can you say such things definitively?

"Anyone else been playing, rediscovering old loves and ancient frustrations, and pondered what they portend for PS2? And of our hopes and fears for it?"

Oh wait, I guess I was on topic!

[Kalbuth]

Can only concur with Elcyco about how really bad PS1 shooting is. Missing something is very hard to achieve, due to how slow your target is going, and the size of the hitbox you need to hit, @100m, it feels like you're shooting a pee-shooter, and at close range, wielding a HA, seeing the TTK differences and mag capacity, is basically a I WIN button.
The way to override the MA/HA difference is through grenades, adding to the overall spam, or through external items like PS.
Or you can rape the netcode to induce warp, ofc....
You don't need to actually aim, as long as your reticle is roughly overall target body, you're good to go.

I'm not advocating for too short TTK à la BF3, more BF2142 or QuakeWars things, or even smtg like 30% longer than that.
But what is desesperatly needed :
* faster infantry movement
* locational damage rewarding headshots
* less extreme damage degradation
* precise weapons rewarding precision shooting

Q : is BF2142 still somewhate alive, so that I reinstall and test it to compare?

[ringring]

It's been a blast, .... nostalgia....

1) Fuck BFR's. Fuck them in the ear. I'd forgotten how badly I hate them. They have mobility, overwhelming firepower, and are impossibly freaking hard to kill. Ditto on the Galaxy gunship.........

2) It is exasperatingly difficult to get gunners, even when you broadcast hey, Raider loading up at the front door, hop in ............

3) The new system of forgiving grief will be a blessing -- particularly those of

4) Whatever resource system they come up with needs to be simple and comprehensible, because I can't understand what mods give you ....

5) The time to kill with handheld weapons against other infantry in PS1 seems to be just right. I....

6) The TTK for most ground vehicles is far too long. I remember the Decimator before it got nerfed, and it was a good anti-armor weapon. Now it's an armor-annoyance weapon that I haven't scored a single kill .....

7) I still get completely disoriented and run around for fruitless frustrating minutes trying to find things like the vehicle pad or the gen room. These new big giant bases better have a user-friendly map you can bring up in your HUD, with everything clearly labeled.

8) I'd forgotten how much fun being a cloaker was.,,,,

9) Despite my grousing about their foot-zerging habits, my beloved TR is much as I remember it. They demonstrably lay more mines, pull more AMS's, do more ANT runs, and fix/heal/help each other more than our enemies do. If we can preserve that Psychotic Combat Engineer corporate culture when we transition to PS2, I'll be well content.

Anyone else been playing, rediscovering old loves and ancient frustrations, and pondered what they portend for PS2? And of our hopes and fears for it?

1. I kinda don't agree with you, I have no particular love of BFR's and I really hate piloting or gunning one .... but, they're not particularly hard to kill ... and.. they are bullet magnets.

2. I never ever do that .... only use outfit mates as gunners...

3. What system of forgiving grief, the ast I heard grief in PS2 will be as PS1?

4. Hmm, I thought it was pretty straight-forward.

5. I agree with you. It will be interesting in beta with a lower ttk plus a lot of people filling the air with lead at the same time.

6. I think it's just fine, I get vehicle kills but rarely when it's only me firing, that's as it should be imho

7. Yes .... ease of orientation, it was one of the reasons that people didn't like caves.


Recent days has seen a big jump in the activity of my outfit and I'm loving it.

I can see you never tried out the TR Navy tactic, a platoon rocking the Raiders can be an extremely devastating team, hell we even smashed a larger force of Magriders the supposed kings of the waves and scared off/blew up everything that was thrown at us. Raiders rule! :D
They do indeed., My favourite outfit event used to be raiders.

[Gloworm]

My friends, it has often been said that I like sniping. Friends, I like sniping. No, friends, I love sniping!
I love contlocks. I love field fights. I love defensive sniping. I love offensive sniping.
Sniping across fields, in bases, on walls, in grass, on frozen tundra, through deserts, from the beach, from a tree. I love every aspect of sniping that can occur in Planetside.
I love hitting enemies at 400m. My heart leaps with joy whenever teams of snipers mark the unwitting for death, and there is nothing like killing a rezing medic. And the feeling when a soldier runs for the safety of a base only to be cut down by a bolt just short of the threshold, is such an exquisite feeling.
Like when enemy snipers brandish their rifles from behind cover. It moves me deep within my heart to watch a rookie hiding behind cover that just isn't quite high enough to cover his hitbox.
The sight of cloakers being caught trying to sneak past is an irresistible pleasure. And there is nothing more arousing, than the sound of a failed boomer attempt.
When a band of pitiful NC makes their final defense of their AMS in nothing but spawn gear, only to have 5 snipers race for their BEP, I am in ecstasy.
I love it when my allies are broken by the TR. It's so sad to see bases and towers that were supposed to be defended being taken, their backpacks violated. I love being forced out by scorpions. The humiliation as my rounds go just wide, ducking the second round in a duel to go heal.
Gentlemen, all I ask for is sniping. An infantry fight so vast as to make the server itself tremble. Gentlemen, I ask you as fellow brothers in arms, what is it that you really want? Do you wish for sniping as I do? Do you wish for merciless and tireless sniping? A duel whose field is built with iron, and lightning, and fire? Do you ask for sniping so complete that not even cloakers are left to scavenge the dead?

(Repurposed from Helling)

So yeah, I like sniping and think the current mechanics are fine. Sure it's a pain to have to compensate for both travel time and the target's movement but that makes hitting them at draw distance all the sweeter. I don't care much for more recent sniping because the rifles are too powerful for me to consider it fair and thus enjoyable or the maps are based around close range fights and I prefer extreme range sniping. (In BF2 I used to pick people off of the TV heli spawn in Sharqi from max draw distance with head shots. Love that drop.)

tl;dr: Sniping is best when it's high risk/reward and difficult. Otherwise there's no enjoyment for pulling off hard shots. It's similar to how people like getting melee kills (Source: Valve). People like pulling off difficult things.

I use to love sniping in planetside, my fondest memories of the game is the sniper duels i had with tr/nc snipers. Unfortunately i've been spoiled rotten with new games, and now the mechanics of PS sniping just doesn't apeal to me.
Don't get me wrong, i'm all for two shot kills, i love getting those massit long range headshots, but i have always believed that one shot kills shouldn't be in fps games. My issue is with the time it takes to get a second shot off, i know it's way more realistic having to wait for reticule to get a good aim, but for me it just feels too slow, and it annoys the life out of me :(

Guess i'll go back to being an infiltrator and blowing people up

[CutterJohn]

I can see you never tried out the TR Navy tactic, a platoon rocking the Raiders can be an extremely devastating team, hell we even smashed a larger force of Magriders the supposed kings of the waves and scared off/blew up everything that was thrown at us. Raiders rule! :D

Magrider was only ever 'king' on water by default, because the only other vehicles that floated were the deli and thresher.

The raider and thundy are both superior vs the mag on water because of their ridiculously low profile.

Though both units are still bad in terms of manpower. 5 fully manned mags will wipe the floor with 2 fully manned raiders. 2 thundies vs 3 mags is a somewhat closer match.

[Redshift]

Raiders rule! :D

If you have several on TS they're ok..... the reason no randoms will gun them is because they are shit if you're not.
Pull a tank and you'll get a gunner

[Gandhi]

Randoms gunning for a Raider would have been a lot more fun if the driver (or one designated gunner) could call targets through the ingame UI. It's hopeless without that kind of coordination. But I never have trouble finding gunners for tanks that I pull, usually there's even a group of people at the vec pad just waiting for someone to VNG.

One thing I definitely won't miss are the indoor fights, especially once someone breaks out a Maelstrom. Funneling 100 people into a tight staircase with 3 Maelstroms at the other end is just awful.

[megamold]

personally i can still see what made this game great, and still makes it great to this day.
however the flaws of the game became far more obvious with time.
the most glaring fault i notice is the enormous amount of time you actually stand around doing nothing, waiting , or getting from A to B.

but i'm still having a blast :D

[Figment]

Magrider was only ever 'king' on water by default, because the only other vehicles that floated were the deli and thresher.

The raider and thundy are both superior vs the mag on water because of their ridiculously low profile.

Though both units are still bad in terms of manpower. 5 fully manned mags will wipe the floor with 2 fully manned raiders. 2 thundies vs 3 mags is a somewhat closer match.

A Thunderer with AMP shield should win a direct confrontation with on Magrider if both engage at once. A Thundy getting the drop on a Magrider should win, especially if they see its flank because that's harder to miss even with the inaccurate Gauss canons. :)

If you've never ran with 20 Thunderers as a group before, you should: pretty much instakills GV BFRs. Quite funny to see.

[Bocheezu]

Honestly, I can't play for more than an hour or two before I get too frustrated to play. Most of that is because I can't hit the broad side of a barn (I can't kill anybody 1v1 and K/D is around 1/2), but I remember thinking fondly of how much a meatgrinder the base assaults were and how you could be fighting in the same staircase for 15 mins or more, and thinking how epic that was. Now I can't stand it at all; spending a minute with spawn time and running to the staircase to get raped by grenades and maelstrom spam is not fun anymore. I am glad the PS2 bases are more open and aren't as claustrophobic as the PS1 ones, and I hope that you can consistently get a clear shot even during the heaviest base assaults.

I've also done some cave fighting and it's fun to remember how absolutely broken VS maxes are in there for a small-scale cave fight. Hey, I'm getting attacked...time to fly up on a roof where no one can shoot me. Oh, they're hacking the CC...time to drop off the roof and kill them while they're hacking. Being able to boomer the end of a zipline is pretty cheap as well (oh, look, here comes the big glowing ball! *CLICK*), but that can be worked around. I liked the concept of cave fighting and using your knowledge of ziplines to come at people from areas they don't expect, but travel time is an even bigger deal in that place and every death is so time consuming. Also, the cycler really sucks; I snuck up and emptied almost an entire clip into the back of a REXO and he was still able to turn around and get a shot into me. I eventually went back to MCG and completely gave up any long-range capability just so I could at least do some damage in close range before dying.

[sylphaen]

NC with OP equipment ? Why am I not surprised ?

If reavers were not common pool, the NC version would be OP.
;)

[Xyntech]

My biggest revelation:

Planetside 1 is still a lot of fun for me, as long as the populations are decent.

I tried playing the game a few months back and couldn't stand it. Admittedly I wasn't playing during peak hours, but that never used to be a problem back in the day. There was always at least a few decent fights 24/7.

I thought the problem had been that the game had aged terribly, and that low populations only compounded it, but the amount of fun I had in the short time I played yesterday proved to me that the scale and massive number of players are the most important element of the game, at least for my personal enjoyment.

There are tons of flaws that I hate about the original Planetside, but there is so much to love as well. I really strongly feel that even if PS2 completely screws up on a lot of things, that it will still be a lot of fun as long as the scale and team work are there.

But personally, I think that PS2 will fix a lot more issues than it will create.

So here's to Planetside. One of the best games I've ever played despite having some huge flaws. July 1st and the surrounding days are going to be a lot of fun.

[Pillar of Armor]

There was a bunch of discussion on other threads about the "skill" involved in using the FPS mechanics in PS1 with retical bloom and whatnot... At first I thought Yeah! Skill! Then I played PS1 the last two nights and realized... Pffff, you can "control" bloom all you want in PS1, but I'm just gonna murder your face by spam dancing you to death... There's noooo skill in PS1 fighting, it is a pure spamfest and nothing less. If anyone can prove me wrong with a good vid, i will change this post, but otherwise I'll cya in game and I will be spam dance killing you and your squad while you lol pace your shots.

[wasdie]

Planetside 2 is going to feel a lot more modern with a lower TTK and ADS.

[Xyntech]

There was a bunch of discussion on other threads about the "skill" involved in using the FPS mechanics in PS1 with retical bloom and whatnot... At first I thought Yeah! Skill! Then I played PS1 the last two nights and realized... Pffff, you can "control" bloom all you want in PS1, but I'm just gonna murder your face by spam dancing you to death... There's noooo skill in PS1 fighting, it is a pure spamfest and nothing less. If anyone can prove me wrong with a good vid, i will change this post, but otherwise I'll cya in game and I will be spam dance killing you and your squad while you lol pace your shots.

Gun play is going to be fantastic in PS2. I can't wait to play Planetside: Better Infantry Battles Edition

Despite being so simplistic, I'm kind of surprised how much I still enjoyed flying a Reaver and Mosquito. No wonder I stayed in the skies so much when I used to play. I can't wait to fly with PS2's improved flight physics though, that's just going to be amazing.

I'm very glad to get this refresher opportunity on what Planetside is like, under proper large scale conditions. It will be very helpful going into beta to have fresh in mind both what worked in Planetside, as well as what didn't.

By the ways, am I remembering wrong, or did the net code used to be less shitty on distant targets? I didn't have too much problem yesterday at short ranges, but I couldn't believe how much people were warping around when I was trying to pick them off of the walls of Gunuku.

[JHendy]

All it's done is reminded me why I quit so many years ago. Bring on PS2 because the big piece of shit known as PS1 needs to be put down.

Remember it for what it was, not what it is.

Oh fuck off...

[BuzzCutPsycho]

Oh fuck off...

u mad?

[Kurtz]

I was discerning enough to not bother installing.

I feel like you all are attending a big funeral. These are your eulogies. I'm totally guessing but PS1 to be put down when PS2 goes live.

[ThermalReaper]

Can someone link me to a guide of planetside abbreviations? I have no idea what the heck BFR is.

[BuzzCutPsycho]

I was discerning enough to not bother installing.

I feel like you all are attending a big funeral. These are your eulogies. I'm totally guessing but PS1 to be put down when PS2 goes live.

Yeah... to make matters worse it's a funeral that I simply can't even be assed to bomb!

[RageMasterUK]

Gunner BFRs are fairly balanced these days, but the Flight BFRs are still insanely good. The only reason people think they are bad is because pilots are pretty much all terrible players. I'm only an OK player but I can go 30/1 K/D piloting a Flight BFR (and this includes eating MBTs for breakfast) without breaking a sweat. Bad players never believe me, and yet I've done it more times than I can count.

AGREE ^

I believe you mate :D I play TR Invader whenever I roll armor, and its by far the most powerful single-man vehicle. You can even pull it without Tech plant!!! My best ratio is 100-0 when I went all out to get my MAX buster Platium award (10 Max kills without respawning). Took about 5 hours. Kills were mostly MAX's on hills and aircraft. I swapped out from my damaged BFR twice.

Alot of people just dont know how to use BFR's effectively. Gotta use your crouch mode to conserve your shields and not jump unless you really really need to (drains shield and turns it off while midair). And have damn good aim and tracking skills. AI make good AA and AV weapon if you can land your hits.

There are some good infantry out there who solo me sometimes with the jammer deci combo, but very very rarely and only when they get the drop on me. If I am aware of them closing the distance they have no chance; between me jumping away, or firing my jammed AI chainguns at half rate at them, it still kills them.

Someone mentioned about the bullets penetrating the shields, alot of players don't even fire their medium assault when they see a BFR. They should do, Its a major major drag for me when my AI chaingun gets half-ROF or 10% projectile range, it sends me right back for repairs. You can damage a system if you're lucky with a single shot from a bolt-driver. HSR works good too.

Last night I killed 2 Galaxy Gunships using AI Chainguns (and did the majority damage on them too - not just the kill-blow). My favourite thing to do is to jump at them and try and collide with them, its massive damage, it messes with the Gunner's aiming and a GG never expects anyone to get super aggressive against it! Vehicles also take massive damage when you sprint at them and start kicking them, while shooting them. This also knocks their vehicle about; gives the gunner a hard time aiming when their vehicle is rocking side to side, and on occasion you can kick them into water (yay!) or into some trees where they cant maneuver. On the odd occasion I've gotten some vehicles to flip over entirely, and kicking fury's or basilisks about is like playing footbalL!!!! Its so funny. Even managed to turn a few friendly vehicles over when the drivers dropped off the cliff on esamir once.

I mostly play right next to the other frontline TR forces so I can retreat easy, and I soak up ALOT OF FIRE onto my shields from enemies. Even when I'm not actually getting kills, I can GUARANTEE you that if you see my INVADER on the front line, its me who's dishing out the most damage and absorbing the most fire (for one soldier). If Planetside tracked kill assists I would have a rediculous amount of those, since I often just try and put damage on everyhing enemy that I see. More than 75% of the targets I fire at escape me with low health especially vehicles. I dont mind shooting at things even if Im unlikely to get the kill..... FOR THE EMPIRE!!!!

For defence you can sit next to the veh repair/rearm terminal and hotswap out your weapons instantly based on target. You dont even have to reload. Reavers square up to you and your AI chainguns turn into AA weapons instantly and the sky starts burning around them. You can jump to get a better line on escaping air and vehicluar targets too. Its sublime :D

You can jump ontop of bases and get a firing line through doors no other vehicles can reach. Perch ontop of trees while recharging your shields. Instantly climb mountains. Has a pretty impressive top speed. Its just a massive power trip!!!! I can see why some Planetsiders hated the BFRs. They couldnt beat em, and they wouldn't join them!

If every TR had Invader we would never need Oshur or another Techplant ever again. I haD dreams of a 30 man Invader platoon, but never managed to find that many Invader buddies :(

-RageMasterUK

[Kurtz]

Yeah... to make matters worse it's a funeral that I simply can't even be assed to bomb!
LOL.

[ThermalReaper]

Hey?! What is BFR?

[oosik]

Hey?! What is BFR?

Battle Frame Robotics

big mechanized units, some one man, some two man.

[Taru]

The problem with Raiders is that it requires teamwork. Iknorite? If every gun is firing at a different target then that raider is absolutely useless. Get them all firing on the same target and that TTK goes WAY down.

[DerFurst]

BFR = Big F*cking Robot

PS2 is going to make some significant changes to both infantry and air vehicle combat, which is really good.

1) Infantry battles in PS1 were awful. With the new netcode in place for the event, it's even worse than before. Players will disappear from screen, warp, look like they're shooting you looking backwards, and shoot you before they get out of cover. TR with their MCGs get a definite advantage over VS and NC who actually have to consider where they're shooting. Understandably, gunplay was bad to accomodate large amounts of people. Because technology has advanced, this shouldn't be a problem anymore. In PS2, gunplay will be like most other AAA shooters, most notably BF3. Infantry will be able to kill other infantry from longer distances, kill faster depending on locational aiming, and will more precisely be able to set up positions. This time around, much more skill will be involved. Some people don't like the modernized mechanics, but I love every bit of it.

1.1)Base battles were even worse for infantry. Base assault consisted of sardine packed troops zerging into the respawn room to blow up the respawn tubes and kill PJs. Base defense consisted of guarding narrow passageways and shooting explosives at doors in hopes someone would run in to die. Now that bases are bigger and more diverse, the zerg coming in won't be so bottlenecked, and bases will be much more memorable. Because of this, different tactics for taking or defending will be available for bases, allowing more diversity to the game.

2)Air vehicles will handle much more realistically in PS2. In PS1, air vehicles were more or less jerky flying cameras that ignore gravity. PS2 gives aircraft both cockpits, and an adherence to Newton's 3 laws. Inertia will make turning on a dime feel more fluid, much like drift racing. This fact alone caused many people to crash into the cactus during E3. Watch closely the "Massive Air Combat" trailer for what I mean by drifting.

[Redshift]

TR with their MCGs get a definite advantage over VS and NC who actually have to consider where they're shooting.

You understand what bollox that is right?

The mcg user still needs to land the shots, so they still need to track the target, infact since the TR use lots of low power rounds they're the ones that need to track the target more than any other empire.
To kill at full speed the mcg needs to have the crosshairs on the target all the time, the JH only needs crosshairs on target 3 times in a couple of seconds

[Hamma]

PlanetSide 1 has its faults - I'm not playing because it was the best game of all time I'm playing for the nostalgia of it and enjoying playing with the community.

[bjorntju1]

Dammit...

3 PM PT – Lone Wolf Tourney With Tigersmith. Details to come!
4 PM PT – Massive Dogfight over the Auraxis ocean. Coordinates will be called out before the fight begins but who will remain?
6PM PT – ANT Demolition Derby. Drive your fastest and ram your enemy into pieces!

Sunday July 1st

2 PM PT – Empire War – PlanetSide TV will cover 2 hours of non-stop combat all over Auraxis!
5 PM PT – PlanetSide Day Parade – March in this formal parade as long as you can. There will be surprises!
http://www.planetside2.com/news/planetside-day-2012

All those times are all at night (apart from the Empire War) here in Holland. I'd love to come to the PS Day Parade but that is at 2'oclock at night here and I have to work the next day. I hope those ''surprises'' doesn't mean first beta access haha.

[Haro]

Yeah, Planetside was pretty interesting for me last night, on a new server (very sad they closed Emerald, never heard about that) and after... 5 years of being away more or less.

1. Infantry combat... oh man. I decided to load out mostly infantry gear (rexo, MA, HA, AV) because it was a role I never really got to do all that much in the original as a pilot (I was pretty bad back then, but I consider myself a well-above average shooter now.) Yeah, big mistake, that's changing tonight.

I can't even really judge the mechanics themselves just because everything is so buggy, laggy and all around insane. I had a very hard time using the jackhammer, just didn't seem to want to hit anyone even at close range. Had better luck just spamming gauss fire or sniping with the HSR. Explosions and tracers weren't showing up very well, explosion spam was insane, and I felt like it took me forever to kill someone, but I could die in seconds. Needless to say, my KDR was pretty terrible.

Also, tangential rant, I think I'll be glad to see the Phoenix go. I have a bit of a love hate relationship with it. I love sniping maxes with it, especially in base defense, because I can get over hills and single them out. Got a bunch of kills that way. But the thing is damn near useless against vehicles. I fire one round, I need about 10-15 seconds to actually hit something, another couple of seconds to reload, and I'll need to repeat that anywhere from 5-20 times just to kill something. Reavers tend to wipe me out in a matter of seconds, or just fly away, and tanks tend to retreat more often than not. I'm not really buying into the whole longer-TTK is better thing for vehicles. At least, not until I spec out completely for tanks tonight (probably)

2. The game sucks if you don't have an outfit. I can understand why many newcomers didn't really take to it. I had a great outfit, one I helped found, for several years, and that spoils you. I don't really see myself joining an outfit for a game I'll only play for less than a month at most, though who knows, but damn, playing this game solo isn't only hard, it's really terrible. You can't do all the fun, coordinated things like large assaults or vehicles, and the infantry combat isn't good enough to sustain you just for that. Hopefully, PS2 corrects this by being more fun on a basic level and improving the outfit system some how (maybe new-player outfits set up by SOE.)

3. Not going to miss the cert system. I think the bonus of customization (2which we may not really lose in the next game) is a very small benefit of a system that can absolutely pound you if you've picked up the wrong certs. It's bad when players can find themselves in a situation where there skill set really isn't doing any good, and yet they may not be able to change.

4. I'm really sick of Orbital Strikes. I think it was after the third or forth friendly Bolt from the Blue on our own vehicle pad that really put me off. Generally sick of CR5's in general, except for a few like Pointman and Goku, who were part of a very good minority.

5. Transports need incentives. I fought in some infantry combat between bases, and it was quite fun, but if I didn't have an AMS nearby, I hated having to walk several minutes just to get there. And sometimes, you die very quickly. I think Gal spawnpoints and squad spawns will be very helpful with that, and I think both are very welcome additions. We'll also see how distances work out in the new, more spread out continents. But either way, I want to see more benefits for gal and sundy drivers, because we need them, and for more than just squad or outfit ops.

But not everything was bad. I did get very fed up about every hour and disconnected, but I constantly found myself getting drawn back in to that clusterfuck on Searhus. I think I played for the better part of 4 hours. Combat could be very fun at times, even as a foot soldier.

I loved when I saw my performance meter for the first time: 77ms ping at most, and averaging 150 fps, with sustained periods above 200. Times certainly have changed.

But if anything, my PS1 experiences, however fun, have really opened my eyes as to how much PS2 needs to change things. It makes me laugh at the people who claim PS2 is "dumbing" things down, because believe me, there are a lot of dumb things in PS1, and a lot of dumb people (Laka... need I say more? Goku and Pointman know what I'm talking about.) Obvious stuff that often tends to be covered up by how much fun we can have working in groups in such a unique situation as the original Planetside. But at its core, the game needs to change. I'm enjoying myself in this game, but only because I'm not paying for it.

[megamold]

PlanetSide 1 has its faults - I'm not playing because it was the best game of all time I'm playing for the nostalgia of it and enjoying playing with the community.

qft :)

also: is it just me or are people just not bothering with reviving as much as they used to ?

[Hamma]

Seems that way. Though I was rezzed about 5 times in a row by Sardus on the TRG stream :lol:

[Rivenshield]

I am glad the PS2 bases are more open and aren't as claustrophobic

That's another thing I'd forgotten -- how congested the hallways get in both base and tower fights. You literally have people bouncing on the heads of the crowd like a mosh pit, and anybody with a Maelstrom can farm the hell out of the whole lot.

If the average passageway is wide enough to allow three-four lanes of human traffic, that's enough to let a MAX lock down, let somebody take a knee next to him, and still have room for the zerg to advance close to the opposite wall. That'll be a vast improvement.

I just hope the devs didn't go overboard in the opposite direction and make everything *too* spacious. There ought to be multiple points throughout any base where a skilled, determined squad can make a stand against a superior force. For awhile, anyway.

[Baneblade]

Maybe I should get the FV before the end, just to see the hate tells.

[Effective]

Decis are OP as hell against a MAX unit. Making them more powerfu would destroy maxes completely, not that they're already useless except for the AA one.

I disagree, the decimator is hardly OP against maxs unless you're playing defensively, and even then it's still meh.

Every max in the game has a faster ttk vs. rexo, then a decimator vs. a max.

TR with their MCGs get a definite advantage over VS and NC who actually have to consider where they're shooting.

The MCG is a jack of all trades weapon and the only area it has an advantage vs the other 2 HA is in medium-long range fights.

[Figment]

It was funny to see how the CR5s reacted to the Home Cont Defense event...


We (group of 5-6 Werner CR5s and a few others) told them exactly what would happen right from the start. Then some nub CR5s went and said "DON'T LISTEN TO FIGMENT, the bases are CLEARLY NOT DRAINING so they WON'T go neutral".

*jaw... floor - facepalm*

We told them what to prepare for. Which bases to hold, which would not drain and how to deal with hacked bases (LLUs first, keep them out of subcapitals and try to deny them access to links to subcapitals and reset as much as possible as groups on a base by base basis with organised drops) and basically what to aim for as the defending empire.

No. Of course we had no idea what we were talking about - for the entirety of that half hour they were questioning our competence while boasting about their own experience... So we kinda just left it there and figured "sod it, go and learn from your mistakes then". Mercs went and setup Vidar for quick LLU and hold. Most of the other CR5s didn't know what to do at all, so they did nothing.


Then suddenly the home cont defense event started:

"OMG", "WTF", "WTH", "ZOMG OUR CONTS WENT NEUTRAL!?!" "this is shit!", "why are they doing that!", "WHAT?! Brewko must have given TR advance warning cause they're already here!", "H4X!? WHY CAN THEY HAZ MOAR PEOPLE THAN US!?".

Think that for about 15 minutes and beyond about that and how crappy the event was because they were unpleasantly surprised and didn't know what to expect. It was completely embarrasing to be a CR5 at that point because of the sheer ego of returning noobs "I've also never heard of and am glad to I hadn't" as they apparently missed the concept of each and every home cont defense in the past 8 years...



This is what you get if you people don't train or explain your outfits on every level in what kind of events exist, what happens during them and how you can deal with them!

Utterly incompetent and ego-centrical CR5s that boast about their personal capabilities without actually having anything to show for it, meaning no insight or knowledge whatsoever... It's still there and will always be there, won't it?



Anyway, I was happy to not have gone back to either continent as I was about to go sleep anyway (plus both conts were virtually pop locked anyway) and broke Neti Interlink with a Routerpad on my first attempt to get in. :) Still wonder what people think is hard about breaking Interlinks...

(Of course not a pad directly to gen, would have been too easy, no, a pad to make people help both upstairs and backdoor by engaging VS in the butt and fight their way downstairs - much more fun).

[Effective]

It was funny to see how the CR5s reacted to the Home Cont Defense event...


We (group of 5-6 Werner CR5s and a few others) told them exactly what would happen right from the start. Then some nub CR5s went and said "DON'T LISTEN TO FIGMENT, the bases are CLEARLY NOT DRAINING so they WON'T go neutral".

*jaw... floor - facepalm*

We told them what to prepare for. Which bases to hold, which would not drain and how to deal with hacked bases (LLUs first, keep them out of subcapitals and try to deny them access to links to subcapitals and reset as much as possible as groups on a base by base basis with organised drops) and basically what to aim for as the defending empire.

No. Of course we had no idea what we were talking about - for the entirety of that half hour they were questioning our competence while boasting about their own experience... So we kinda just left it there and figured "sod it, go and learn from your mistakes then". Mercs went and setup Vidar for quick LLU and hold. Most of the other CR5s didn't know what to do at all, so they did nothing.


Then suddenly the home cont defense event started:

"OMG", "WTF", "WTH", "ZOMG OUR CONTS WENT NEUTRAL!?!" "this is shit!", "why are they doing that!", "WHAT?! Brewko must have given TR advance warning cause they're already here!", "H4X!? WHY CAN THEY HAZ MOAR PEOPLE THAN US!?".

Think that for about 15 minutes and beyond about that and how crappy the event was because they were unpleasantly surprised and didn't know what to expect. It was completely embarrasing to be a CR5 at that point because of the sheer ego of returning noobs "I've also never heard of and am glad to I hadn't" as they apparently missed the concept of each and every home cont defense in the past 8 years...



This is what you get if you people don't train or explain your outfits on every level in what kind of events exist, what happens during them and how you can deal with them!

Utterly incompetent and ego-centrical CR5s that boast about their personal capabilities without actually having anything to show for it, meaning no insight or knowledge whatsoever... It's still there and will always be there, won't it?



Anyway, I was happy to not have gone back to either continent as I was about to go sleep anyway (plus both conts were virtually pop locked anyway) and broke Neti Interlink with a Routerpad on my first attempt to get in. :) Still wonder what people think is hard about breaking Interlinks...

(Of course not a pad directly to gen, would have been too easy, no, a pad to make people help both upstairs and backdoor by engaging VS in the butt and fight their way downstairs - much more fun).

The majority of NC CR5's are incredibly dumb. It must awesome to be that dumb, every day is always a new adventure!

[Figment]

Now now, I wouldn't dare say this is limited to NC.


Unfortunately it appears to be a widespread human epidemic. :( We may have to warn the WHO about it at some point.

[Baneblade]

I've never done that particular event and the clusterfuckage over what I consider to be simple questions was making me want to achieve Weapons Lock Auraxium. So I just winged it and lead from the hip. EVILPIG was more useful than just about anyone else online... and that right there says a lot about the quality of the NC CR5pams these days, especially since his brilliant tactics were taken right out of AT's MAXbook.

[Rivenshield]

It was funny to see how the CR5s reacted to the Home Cont Defense event...

TR Markov here. Never played on Werner, but I created an NC alt on Emerald out of mere curiosity and played it off and on for a few months. Several things jumped out at me immediately that explained the smurf behavior I was seeing over on Markov:

1) One of the reasons the NC kicked so much ass in close-in knifefights is because when you have a single shot weapon -- or even one that goes into super-atomic 3-shot mode -- it's a lot easier to strafe around and aim *between* your own people. The TR can't do that without murdering each other. I never appreciated that until I held a Jackhammer myself.

2) There were never any backup AMS's. Never. The enemy would find our one or two AMS's and destroy them and the entire offensive would grind to a halt until the big blue and gold killing machine could reassemble and get pointed in the same direction. I was continually rolling them myself just out of habit and getting plenty of compliments... but nobody ever joined me. In fact getting support of any kind was like pulling teeth, and as a loyal Terran who was used to our FIX EVERYTHING AROUND YOU AT ALL TIMES ethic it really fucking irritated me.

3) The CR5's were retarded. They screeched orders and insults at us and each other like junior highers on a caffeine high. They made ours look like Sun Tzu. They had exactly one bright spark amongst them: SecOfHateColinKapow, and we pretty much followed him whenever he was on.

Despite 2) and 3), the NC still turned in good performances due to the user-friendly firepower of the Jackhammer on the one hand and the Vanguard on the other. Cameraderie, yes. Lots of killing power, yes. Organization, other than the moment-to-moment kind? LOL.

The different lore and character of each empire attracts different personality types. And the ones that are drawn to the NC frankly seem to be the frustrated teenagers, the libertarians, the independents who, for whatever reasons in RL, don't like to be told what to do *and* who want the biggest goddam guns. The TR get the disciplined serious people, or at least a critical mass of them, precisely because of the whole Nazi-Commie color scheme and authoritarian lore.

(Much of what makes the Vanu tick as a community is still a mystery to me. I never created a Vanu alt. They really seem to get their rocks off on the whole WE ARE SUPERIOR BECAUSE OF THE POWER OF SCIENCE! meme, though. I'm guessing they were the kids playing harmless practical jokes on each other in high school science lab, and who will dangerously overclock their PC's to gain a few frames per second).

You're not bitching about 'experience' or 'organization' or 'discipline'. You're bitching about your empire's corporate culture, the one that grows out of the character of the majority of people attracted to it. And there's no cure for that. So it's not going to change in PS2. Nor should it.

[Figment]

Actually Werner NC was (was) much different from what we seen since the merger. Sure there were egoes, but they would still coordinate and cooperate, despite of quarrels between individuals. I've played NC exclusively since 2004 and been CR5 since 2005...

I must therefor conclude it is also (server) culture related, because this bad behaviour, so consistently only happened this frequently on NC after the mergers. In fact, it was a change that literally happened over night. Didn't know where they were from, but you're not the first to suggest Emerald NC had... Special... Leadership.

[Rivenshield]

Actually Werner NC was (was) much different from what we seen since the merger.

I must therefor conclude it is also (server) culture related

/nod

Interesting observations. Servers do indeed have different cultures unto themselves, just as empires do. But a lot of what I saw wearing blue and gold on Emerald confirmed and threw into 3D relief the behavior I saw wearing red and black on Markov.

Take last night for an example. I saw several Vanu minefields that were pretty extensive... but I didn't see any purple people making TR-style suicide runs to maintain them, either. And I don't think I ran into a single NC mine or Spitfire. What's your perception of the whole support role? Do you have to belong to an outfit to get fixed/healed/AMS support? Or do your people pretty much do these things all the time anyway, which I frankly don't see them doing -- then or now.

[Figment]

Currently organisation lacks due to returning outfits being half roster and being unorganised. Back then on Werner vehicles were very well provided in comparison to other servers. Emmy seemed to have more aircav at first. But we sometimes had 8 AMSs at a base, sometimes 1, usualy 3-4. All in all we conditioned our zergs a lot.

At first we lacked Thunderers, but eventually people learned they were great alternatives to tanks when without tech. That took a lot of spam and leading by example. But eventually we went from 1-3 Thundies to 6-8 without tech.

[Littleman]

Reading this discussion, I'm finding the deeper, beneficial meaning in opening up PS1 to all the vets that held on so dearly to the "good ol' ways" while bashing every little change to PS2. They can see why PS2 is being designed the way it is now, and are having their eyes opened to just how big a mistake reintroducing Planetside 1's gun play and mechanics would be in today's day and age. It simply would not appeal to the masses like it needs to do be the great game we all want it to be.

Rose-tinted glasses make everything look better, but then when you take them off...

Planetside 1 really was flawed in too many ways. Yeah, we remembered the GREAT fights we had... the bulk of our FPS' were the strafe and shoot type of games back then.

Today, after all of the modern age games we've had time to experience, PS1 plays like crap in comparison. Infantry combat really did boil down to HA, as MA was useless at ranges where it should have shined, and even in optimum ranges, it didn't do the damage it needed to. There was little to no reward for playing smart or well, just having the better ping and keeping a cross-hair over the target.

There's a reason a lot of the people in this thread doing a 180 in their opinion on how great many of PS1's mechanics were are only now playing again due to the free reactivations: they quit once before, but forgot why.

Unfortunately for me, I can't really play PS1: it locks up or crashes after a random amount of time. I wasn't exactly feeling too involved in firefights either. Impacts had all the feedback of someone shining a pen light in my direction from 40 meters away, and I'll be damned if I ever felt like I was actually making any kills despite 200ms. Never mind that the cycler sucks balls yet sounds and feels the best regardless.

It is a fun game in short bursts, but not something I'm willing to pay $15 a month for anymore. Especially with random crashes that I don't feel like hassling over.

Still, it's nice to see that some people can now see where some of us other vets are coming from in supporting the lower TTK's and other modern mechanics in PS2. They, coincidentally, don't dumb-down anything. PS1 by comparison is in fact the dumbed-down game, but only because 8 years ago this was actually fairly high-quality game-play. A lot has changed since then, both in technology and in expectations.

[EVILPIG]

It's sad to see all the useless commanders who argue and cause trouble. Last night I logged on 10 minutes before the event on Hossin. Some NC CR5s were telling the empire to ignore the event and when the bases went nuetral the NC basically got nothing and that is a nail in the coffin for the that type of event. However, I managed to take the helm and get the NC back on track. Most everyone began to coordinate and shut down the naysayers. We pulled the event out and won with about an hour left.

It was epic. Good job NC.

[Figment]

Reading this discussion, I'm finding the deeper, beneficial meaning in opening up PS1 to all the vets that held on so dearly to the "good ol' ways" while bashing every little change to PS2. They can see why PS2 is being designed the way it is now, and are having their eyes opened to just how big a mistake reintroducing Planetside 1's gun play and mechanics would be in today's day and age. It simply would not appeal to the masses like it needs to do be the great game we all want it to be.

On some points like gun play sure, on others, not so much. It also shows the flaws of PS2 because you can see things like how poor the Galaxy is at approaching a base and staying in its vicinity, compared to an AMS. You can see how important it is you have every single man available to defend a hack point and not be spread out over 20 different hack points in a large area and on top of that whatever spawnpoint you managed to capture or bring (Galaxy).

Rose-tinted glasses make everything look better, but then when you take them off...

And does that apply to you regarding the flaws of PS2 as well? There are loads of PS2 fanboys who whether they do or do not play PS1 do NOT see the flaws of PS2 design.

Planetside 1 really was flawed in too many ways. Yeah, we remembered the GREAT fights we had... the bulk of our FPS' were the strafe and shoot type of games back then.

Today, after all of the modern age games we've had time to experience, PS1 plays like crap in comparison. Infantry combat really did boil down to HA, as MA was useless at ranges where it should have shined, and even in optimum ranges, it didn't do the damage it needed to. There was little to no reward for playing smart or well, just having the better ping and keeping a cross-hair over the target.

There's a reason a lot of the people in this thread doing a 180 in their opinion on how great many of PS1's mechanics were are only now playing again due to the free reactivations: they quit once before, but forgot why.

Unfortunately for me, I can't really play PS1: it locks up or crashes after a random amount of time. I wasn't exactly feeling too involved in firefights either. Impacts had all the feedback of someone shining a pen light in my direction from 40 meters away, and I'll be damned if I ever felt like I was actually making any kills despite 200ms. Never mind that the cycler sucks balls yet sounds and feels the best regardless.

It is a fun game in short bursts, but not something I'm willing to pay $15 a month for anymore. Especially with random crashes that I don't feel like hassling over.

Still, it's nice to see that some people can now see where some of us other vets are coming from in supporting the lower TTK's and other modern mechanics in PS2. They, coincidentally, don't dumb-down anything. PS1 by comparison is in fact the dumbed-down game, but only because 8 years ago this was actually fairly high-quality game-play. A lot has changed since then, both in technology and in expectations.

It's nice that you say people do 180s, but then most people are biased on both accounts and never looked objectively at this game or PS2. It's nice some people realise basic flaws, but at the same time they still don't see more important flaws.

Did you see Higby drive his Marauder and crash into trees?

Just wait till he has to gun as well with a unit eight times it's size in PS2 (bigger height/width and length)! It will be hilariously bad to watch and you could see it at E3 already with all the tanks without gunners crashing into rocks, buildings, each other and of course the cactii.

PS1 shows units should be designed for up to three players in a combat role, four if you're pushing it. Beyond that A-B transportation only. Combat units though are best for units of up to three-four players. It shows that it's easy to get gunners, as long as they feel useful (usualy unlike in the Raider or Prowler) and it also shows that players gravitate towards heavy firepower (HA, MAX) and fast, agile and flexible equipment (aircav). It shows the basic strategies of how people will use these things in combinations in PS2, yes even if you don't know the exact TTK.

PS1 also shows what is so good about ES units with regards to ease of identification of vehicle role and empire. It also better amplifies aesthetic design in the sense of sensory cues (you know when people got into a/your vehicle and in what spot because a door opened for instance). You see how important it is to have clear identification of which seats are occupied.

I also liked how T-Ray and Matt commented on the entry animations looking so nice (and giving such a nice emersion feel), which they probably noticed particularly due to playing PS2 which doesn't have that at all. Similarly, it's noticable how there are no backpacks in PS2 to loot, which can also be considered a step back. Etc etc. I hope you won't try to turn this into a "now you can see all the flaws and hail our new developer gods"-thread, because all the GOOD things from PS1 are ALSO in full display.

If anything, it gives everyone a chance to refresh what they did and did not like and verify if something stood the test of time. However, if you're only going to use this time to bash PS1 design, you're wasting an opportunity to get out as much feedback as you can.

Meaning from what I've seen between PS1 and PS2 E3, intuitive communication is on many levels still better in PS1, because short cuts in development resources and number of players on the map optimization decisions are made in PS2.

PS1 shows the impact of Galaxy Gunships on game play, and even more if these come en mass. This is a huge lesson for PS2 I hope people pick up on.


I also do hope that you realise that cone of fire management in PS1 was way more important than other games and that players who kept playing throughout are getting loads of easy kills because they can and the others can't control their CoF anymore. Of course that affects how gun play is experienced as well: if you've become rather crap at and unused to it, you are more likely to blame your tools. One should be careful to not make rash decisions.

Some outfit mates of mine been accused with hacking for simply running through a number of people in a row, just through cof management of a JH, MCG or Lasher and then getting healed/repaired by buddies and himself in between engagements.

As fast as you die now in PS1, also try to imagine how fast you will die in PS2 with more enemies and a faster TTK.


There's a lot more to learn from PS1 and yes, it shouldn't be a carbon copy, but one should be careful of only learning one-sided lessons by looking at it through rose-teinted PS2/"modern" goggles.

[HenchAnt]

I was on during EU hours as NC (support, CE and AA certs), and it was quite nice.

While the lack of outfits meant that things were done quite a bit less efficient than they used to a few years ago, there were quite a few open squads that tried to get things done in a focused way.

While CR5 were often contradictory (like when TR and VS were invading Searhus at the same time), there were also respected regulars like Pointman who got things into order.

And most of the time, we had at least one AMS at the current target base, one or two Lodestars near the current hot spot and most bases with some basic CE defense. When playing AA max, I often had another AA max in view range so we could cover each other.

What was sometimes lacking was organized ground vehicle action. Especially on Friday, the Magrider was popular with the NC because he could be driven solo.

So while things could of course have been better, they were still far from bad. :p


But playing Planetside again also showed its shortcomings in basic game mechanics, especially infantry combat. Inside, its a HA meatgrinder with lots of door and stair camping. Outside its a snipe fest while being farmed by air cav.

So I'm really looking forward to Planetside2, with a better weapon balance and a shorter, more fun, TTK for both infantry and vehicles.

[ringring]

Nice post Figgy....

[Littleman]

-Lot's o' misdirected text-

Wow... sounds like you missed reading half the thread. There's a reason for 1 person vehicles. No one should have to spam VNG in vain. Of course a tank/gunner team is better, in PS2 they get to roll out on their own however. Then again, some may prefer to trust their own aim than rely on some random to shoot at what they need to shoot at, and accurately. Joining an outfit is not the fix all: they can have pretty $#!%%& players too.

CoF management IS NOT hard to handle... it's stupidly easy, especially with a JH... MA just SUCKS in comparison to HA at short ranges, and at longer ranges, your TTK's drop so drastically it makes MA almost not worth using. Too much ammo put down range for too little positive result.

It's common practice to fight, recover, fight, recover. Doesn't change that the gun play in this game, for the most part, is pretty mind numbing due to long TTK's and the way the game and weaponry works as a whole.

Remember next time, opinions are one's own. I'm more interested in criticizing PS1 regarding the hot button topics on this forum for PS2. They didn't include galaxy gun ships, nor did I experience said gun ships in my attempted return before another lovely CTD. I think the forum base already agreed E/E animations for vehicles would be nice to have in PS2. Little reason to use PS1 to back that up. As for back packs, SOE has long since already stated they want empires to remain strictly themselves, so no looting mechanics. Weapon modifications can probably get your cycler close to acting like a gauss rifle though. Have fun with that.

[Figment]

Nice how you use the term "misdirected", mr righteous.

Wow... sounds like you missed reading half the thread. There's a reason for 1 person vehicles. No one should have to spam VNG in vain.

Uhm, yeah they do have to spam "in vain"? Otherwise they get too much power per player as individualist players? The problem though isn't spamming in vain, it's not organizing your own group of players and expecting to lure randoms into your units. That's an organizational and distrust issue of the player vs its gunners, not a unit design issue.

People simply don't want randoms to gun or gun for random drivers as those are more likely to be crap at their role. It's a trust issue and a privacy issue (only play with people you know). So by making people more individual... you're saying they'd get to know eachother better and this would eleviate the problem, especially by making each individual driver stronger, but also crappier because of the distractions of shooting? Hah. Right. Awesome logic. Not.

Further discouraging organization only makes teamplay worse. But hey, didn't think about that, did you? On the individualist bandwagon are we?

Of course a tank/gunner team is better, in PS2 they get to roll out on their own however. Then again, some may prefer to trust their own aim than rely on some random to shoot at what they need to shoot at, and accurately. Joining an outfit is not the fix all: they can have pretty $#!%%& players too.

Yes, they can have crap players. So get into another outfit or train them. Your point is "people might suck" and conclude "stop working together with people in a MMO" is the best solution?

Ooookay.

CoF management IS NOT hard to handle... it's stupidly easy, especially with a JH... MA just SUCKS in comparison to HA at short ranges, and at longer ranges, your TTK's drop so drastically it makes MA almost not worth using. Too much ammo put down range for too little positive result.

You should play more and do better observations. People spam Gausses continuously without cone of fire control (dosing rate of fire) and then wonder why they get pwned and blame the Gauss.

FFS man. Don't base your argument on your own experience only. Loads of people cannot control the CoF of their weapons and it's very easy to see who can or cannot. And yes, with a shotgun it's easier: it means let people get in close.

Loads of people use shotguns at too long ranges for PS1 and get pwned. >__>

It's common practice to fight, recover, fight, recover. Doesn't change that the gun play in this game, for the most part, is pretty mind numbing due to long TTK's and the way the game and weaponry works as a whole.

Didn't I say something at the start of my long post? Hmm where was it... Let's see... Oh here it is, the very first line of text:

On some points like gun play sure, on others, not so much.

Oh dear, I wonder what that could mean.

Remember next time, opinions are one's own. I'm more interested in criticizing PS1 regarding the hot button topics on this forum for PS2. They didn't include galaxy gun ships,

They did...

nor did I experience said gun ships in my attempted return before another lovely CTD.

That... is really down to your hardware and drivers and incompatibility issues.

I think the forum base already agreed E/E animations for vehicles would be nice to have in PS2. Little reason to use PS1 to back that up.

As I said it just verifies the good bits. So how is that misdirected again? I never said it was a NEW point, did I?

As for back packs, SOE has long since already stated they want empires to remain strictly themselves, so no looting mechanics. Weapon modifications can probably get your cycler close to acting like a gauss rifle though. Have fun with that.

Actually what they said was they didn't know if they'd put it in because they didn't know how to best deal with sidegrades. Meaning how to let or prevent someone from using an enemy gun with a specific sidegrade or people bypassing the sidegrade system by having someone supply friendlies or enemies with sidegrades they shouldn't have access to.

The staying strictly to themselves is not true either, as they created a lot of NS equipment.


And for the record, even if they would decide to keep things strictly to themselves - mostly to reduce the amount of textures needed - this too is a design decision that is allowed to be questioned btw.