Piloting Aircraft Difficulty

[Comet]

I this article (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/planetside-2/1225275p1.html) the author is explaining how difficult it can be to learn to fly, making it a worth while skill to work on.

It was mentioned that there is a current debate if the difficulty should be tones down. I think it should be a system where it's easy enough to learn the basics but difficult to master. There should be a reward for being able to pilot very well and manage to make a difference in a large air battle aside from just numbers.

When you're running in with a squad of players, there is massive amounts of strategy as far as how you move forward, covering your team mates and how well you can aim/utilize your grenades. It's easy to learn how to shoot, run around and even take basic cover, but, moving as a team or learning how to effectively move/shoot your way through a battle field can take some time to master, not to mention skill. Piloting aircraft should work in a similar fashion. Easy enough to fly around a bit, aim your weapons on slow moving targets ect., but, get into a dog fight on a situation where you're flying 10 feet off the ground, around objects, managing your trusts, dodging missle locks and pulling off stunts to avoid machine gun fire - it should be rewarding.

This also only covers the air-air game. Similar experiences should transfer over for a good Liberator and Galaxy pilot as well.

I am sure these opinions are no-brainers to Higby and friends but I thought I'd at least post my feedback and opinion on the matter :)

PS - Does anyone know how it will work if I have a joystick setup for flying but then disembark my craft to repair it or setup a spawn point via Galaxy? Will there be a quick switch in controls that disables the flight joystick and enables the regular mouse/keyboard control setup when not in an aircraft?

[Deflagrate]

I like where you are going with this.

One game that in my opinion had some of the deepest pilot combat mechanics was Star Wars Galaxies. The depth of game play that supported and went into ships was amazing in terms of certifications etc., and the actual combat was no joke. At the basic level there were options, and so many different ways to play for those who got into it, such as larger ships in which there were people gunning, others could be manning various repair points within to aid the ship.

I think beta will be where so many things will be tweaked/tuned in terms of aircraft piloting. It's such a tricky balance to be able to appeal to the hardcore pilot who plays with a joystick and dedicated keymap, etc. for piloting, and someone who wants to be able to fly around and contribute to the fight. Piloting should have a place for both of these players.

[Xyntech]

Inherently, some things will always be easier or harder in games. For example, running around in a MAX suit will simply have a lower skill ceiling than an Infiltrator or Light Assault, simply because there just isn't as much that a MAX can do. That doesn't mean that a person can't be a much more skilled MAX user, or that LA or Inf's have to be ridiculously hard to begin to use or be overpowered when mastered. It's just a necessary difference created by the alternative ways the different classes approach fighting.

Aircraft will undoubtedly be one of the highest skill ceiling skills in the game, thanks to it's high speed/decent firepower/low armor nature, and especially thanks to the more advanced flight physics. While this doesn't mean that it has to be impossible to pick it up and fly one on the first try, it does mean that it will probably have to be the hardest of the vehicles or classes to learn.

I think that flying will be fun enough to make up for the difficulty though. Some players won't be interested, but I think that's okay. From what we've seen from the E3 footage, it's looking like they're currently pretty close to perfect on the matter. While a lot of people crashed, most of it was due to miscalculating how the vehicle handled. I bet that 90% of the players we saw crashing would have started surviving a lot longer within their first hour of flying. While hovering is clearly more difficult and dangerous than in the first game, I don't think I saw one person fall out of the sky because of it.

A big factor in balancing aircraft for new players versus skilled pilots may be the customization options as well. Players who are having a hard time getting into flying but who really want to do it could earn cert points doing other stuff and then spend those points to sidegrade their aircraft in ways that make it easier to fly. Slower speed+higher armor will probably help, and having lots of rockets to spam the ground with will probably be the best bet for a newer pilot as well.

Skilled pilots on the other hand may tend to opt for increasing their speed an maneuverability at the cost of armor, pushing the difficulty up even higher, allowing them to really get immersed in it's intricacies.

[Dougnifico]

I think a big worry is they seem to use a control scheme similar to BF3's piloting. It was hard to get used to. This shouldn't be as much an issue as the speed can be dropped significantly more than BF3 and you don't have to turn every 3 seconds. My only concern is how much they feel like helicopters vs. planes. I f**king hate helicopters...

[SKYeXile]

imo controls should be the same aas PS1 but add the buttons for roll, dont see why they need to copy BF controls.

[Azovyr]

I hope they keep it nice and difficult, because in PS1 it feels there is more aircraft than infantry sometimes which doesn't seem quite right.

[Zar]

I hope they keep it nice and difficult, because in PS1 it feels there is more aircraft than infantry sometimes which doesn't seem quite right.
that was mostly due to weapon imbalance i stayed in the air cause the odds were even up if i got shot down it wasn't cause he had x weapon and trounced me it was cause he just beat me xD

[Dougnifico]

imo controls should be the same aas PS1 but add the buttons for roll, dont see why they need to copy BF controls.

I like how BF3 is so fluid and does require some skill. It really makes you feel in control of every pound of the aircraft. It just sucked on those small maps and not being able to slow down much. This should be much better. Can't wait to pick up a skeeter.

[Landtank]

imo controls should be the same aas PS1 but add the buttons for roll, dont see why they need to copy BF controls.

Meh flying in PS1 is so boring, I like the idea of an aircraft having weight to it, it requires more skill imo.

[alienmoose]

imo controls should be the same aas PS1 but add the buttons for roll, dont see why they need to copy BF controls.

Me too, all I really want to do is spam infantry and rack up as many kills as possible.

[Katalliaan]

I'll preface this with the statement that I have not played the original Planetside nor any Battlefield games since 2142.

From what I have seen, I would almost think that the aircraft (well, maybe not the Scythe) would have similar controls to the aircraft in Battlefield 2142. As far as flight is concerned, they appear to be designed around the same core principle - vectored thrust in order to keep the craft moving and in the air.

[Zar]

Me too, all I really want to do is spam infantry and rack up as many kills as possible.
sounds like someone played alone or had an outfit who didn't know what aa was XD

[AThreatToYou]

The aircraft in PS1 were super easy to fly, yet I still knew some people who absolutely could not fly them for their life. That's... not good for PS2 if it's going to be even harder then.

[alienmoose]

sounds like someone played alone or had an outfit who didn't know what aa was XD

innocence of youth

[SKYeXile]

Meh flying in PS1 is so boring, I like the idea of an aircraft having weight to it, it requires more skill imo.

what does this have to do with the controls?

[Dougnifico]

what does this have to do with the controls?

Its all about control scheme. A good one will make you feel like you are in total control of the aircraft and will give it a sense of "weight."

[Virulence]

The aircraft in PS1 were super easy to fly, yet I still knew some people who absolutely could not fly them for their life. That's... not good for PS2 if it's going to be even harder then.

The drastically different pitch and yaw without the ability to roll and use the greater of the two made flying them very, very uncomfortable.

[Broadside]

Piloting aircraft should definitely take a lot of skill, but not be impossible for those without joysticks. I happen to have a joystick myself, but that shouldn't be a determining factor in how well I perform against others. All in all, flying should be hard enough to make good pilots a valuable commodity, but not so hard as to be unfair for a certain section of the population that doesn't have special equipment.

[Absentis]

Flying shouldn't be too hard to make air combat more friendly. There shouldn't be too many aircraft at once if the resource system works as well as we're expecting. Pilots will also have different difficulty in flying depending on the faction chosen. For example, a Scythe would probably be the easiest since it's the slowest and most maneuverable but the Mosquito and Reaver will be just as, if not more, viable to more experienced pilots that can deal with the extra speed or lack of maneuverability.

[ChookWantan]

There should be a learning curve for aircraft, and they should feel weighty. I love the feeling of progression: from the first time I set foot in an aircraft and feel like I'm in a brick with jets, to the inevitable barrel roll I will be executing under a tight archway. To be honest, I feel cheated when I get into an aircraft in game and I can instantly pull off advanced maneuvers. I want to LEARN.

[Pepsi]

PS2 is probably not going to have a realistic enough flight system where speed and altitude matter enough to make maneuvers like the Immelman, Split-S, High Yo-Yo, Scissors, etc effective in a dogfight. Similar to how top-level dogfighting in BF3 boils down to a battle of "toilet-bowling" attrition, I see being a good PS2 dogfighter revolving around doing one or two things extremely well (i.e. BF3).

[kertvon]

I am all for having a a learning curve for flying.

[GhettoPrince]

It's a video game, it isn't a skill you master , it's entertainment, you just get good at it from constant repetition.

Piloting an actual aircraft is a skill, requiring thousands of hours to learn and master. Flying a plane in a video game is just fun, you swing a controller around and hit buttons to make it go pew pew.

[ArcIyte]

It's a video game, it isn't a skill you master , it's entertainment, you just get good at it from constant repetition.

Piloting an actual aircraft is a skill, requiring thousands of hours to learn and master. Flying a plane in a video game is just fun, you swing a controller around and hit buttons to make it go pew pew.

I suggest you buy a Wii if that's how you feel

[Vydofnir]

I've been thinking about this issue a lot lately, and I had actually logged in with the intention of starting a thread on the exact same topic, so I'm very happy you brought this up Comet.

Personally, I don't plan on doing a whole lot of piloting in PS2, but I like to having the option of hopping into an aircraft and taking part in the battle in the sky if that's what the situation demands. That being said, I don't want to get up there only to get shot down repeatedly by players who are specialized, organized, experienced, using a joystick, etc. without even having a fighting chance. Obviously those who posses those qualities should have an advantage over those who don't, but not to the extent that everyone else is forced out of the air.

Even if I set out to be a hotshot pilot from the get go, I doubt I would have much fun if I knew that most players couldn't even provide me with a challenging experience. If I fully committed myself to being an ace pilot in PS2, I think it would be fair to expect an average kill:death ratio of about 5:1 for dog fighting. This seems like a large enough number to provide me with a sense of accomplishment, but a small enough number to keep me on my toes.

[Soyokaze]

Flying in Ps1 was universally considered overly simplistic, I say as a dedicated pilot myself. Dog fighting did not exist in any real sense. It is apparent that their noble goal has been a more interesting version of this simplicity.

I would love to see them eventually add proper fighter craft, however, though such is not my personal bag.

[Grimster]

Well IMHO. If there is a steap learning curve for flying they should really consider having some sort of system in place similar to VR in PS1.

So you have the possibility to go in there and practive maneuvers without wasting resources because you hit the ground. :)

[Comet]

Great discussion in this thread and all the comments seem to really be summed with "easy to learn, difficult to master and can still have it as a competitive option even if I am not an expert at it."

Seems reasonable and what I would like to see as well. I'm sure the PS2 team is simply debating how best to accomplish this because it really seems like the entire game and all of its options revolves around this mantra.

Either way, I'm looking forward to seeing all you pilots up in the air - friend or foe ;)

[Dart]

Flying ought to become MORE difficult in PS2. PS1 was basically a flying camera with very little in the way of real world physics or movement. It led light-aircraft to being the most OP'd vehicles in the history of PS (and this from someone who ran a light-aircraft based Outfit and used them religiously). Make flying more difficult and give it added levels of complexity to reward those of us who will make it our niche.

And if you don't like to fly, maybe driving may be more your style! ;)

[Jonny]

I want it to be more challenging but rewarding when you master certain maneuvers or methods of flying. Then when I see some impressive flying i'll know its a skilled pilot. The OP says its like a player moving on foot - it should be easy but being tactical is a new level of skill. People thinking tactically is always going to be in the game and give an advantage, but flying an aircraft should not be as easy as walking/running around.

I played the battlefield 2142 demo and was surprised how hard I found it to fly an aircraft. Every time I got in one I crashed it straight away, but it made me want to learn to pilot it well!

[Canaris]

I don't mind that flying will take more skill to master than PS1 model, just as long as they don't go to over board and make it BF stupid but with the VTOL I hope it won't.


and by BF stoopid I mean
Plane
Power>forward motion>Plane magically flips in its own circle while still on the ground and explodes even though it's physically impossible.

Helo
Power > Lift vs drag and rotate > Helicopter flips in it's own circle and explodes, once again defying the law of physics and splodes all over the place... oh the mess it made.

[Kezz]

If it's hard, you need a place to practice where your only enemies are drag, inertia and gravity.

If it's hard, you need to have airframes that are still useful, but are easier to fly than the most useful. I think it would be a Good Thing if one Interceptor turning up over the battlefield would basically mean all the multiroles and GA would either need to gang up and bounce the Inty at the loss of half their number, or go to ground until their own Inty ace/squadron turned up to contest the airspace. Pilots are an elite and the rivalry between the "Top Guns" of each side (and timezone activity-period) could be an epic part of PS2's story.

And even the best pilots can be brought down by a good SAM.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

I'm planning on being a Gal pilot and just bouncing from place to place moving my spawn point.

I don't need to know the super dogfightey "High yo-yo" or whatever it was, I just don't want to crash land my spawns. Don't make it too hard for non-specialists.

[infected]

personally i can fly a bf3 chopper great with a mouse. i love it and it feels rewarding to be a good pilot.

but i can't stand flying the jet with a mouse. it takes way too much backward mouse movement to "pull back on the stick". same goes for opposite forward (diving).

the result looks like you're petting your dog furiously - if my mousepad was my dog, because my hand and mouse furiously stroke it from one end to the other several times just to get the jet to pull back on the stick.

[Sabot]

They ruined flying jets in BF3 in a patch... some time ago. Basically, if you were very good at it, they decided that that isn't fair to the unskilled players, so they made it so that you can't "push" your plane to turn really fast... they still have that "sweet spot" where you turn as fast as possible, but it's totally ruined now. I think the patch notes said something like "reduced jets ability to turn, as _skilled_ pilots could aviod lock-on missiles without the use of flares or ECM" or something like that... and not only did it dumb down the game further, it actually rewards players that have spent money on equipment, such as a joystick, as using the mouse for flying is now, by comparision, useless... you can of course use the keyboard instead, which sort of gives you the same "edge" a joystick has over a mouse, but imo that doesn't make it ok.

SOE, please do not do this to PS2. Don't neuter skilled players because they are skilled. It's one of the most idiotic things you can do and then blame it on balance issues... because it kills all the fun in the game. This is a pure PVP game, just like, for instance, counter strike... if CS had limited the players in that way, they could never have become as famous as they are within that community (and outside it as well), and the game wouldn't be what it is today.

[Shinjorai]

Ive came up with a solution i think will make both camps happy. Check this out and let me know your thoughts.

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=44179

[Hmr85]

Ive came up with a solution i think will make both camps happy. Check this out and let me know your thoughts.

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=44179

Your link is not working. I think you meant to put this.

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=44179

[Shinjorai]

I edited it, should be working now. Thanks.

[Xaine]

I really want it to be kept as hard as possible.

More distinction between good and great pilots is always a good thing, an with the constant influx of new players, I don't think there will ever be an issue where 90% of the people in the air are masters.

Hard = more skill needed to be good = more rewarding = more fun.

In my opinion. :)

[Memeotis]

A learning curve is essential, preferably one that is shallow initially, but gets progressively steeper. Easy to get the basic hang of, but increasingly difficult to master as you add on the teamwork, the understanding of the plane's physics, observational skills (identifying threats and targets), and just overall skills of picking the right targets and knowing how to go about dealing with them.

I genuinely hope that there are no built-in maneuvers like 'Press E/Q to do a barrel roll', but that players will have to craft their own styles. I'd love to see seasoned players understanding the physics so well that they can end up doing maneuvers that give them a momentum to do something extraordinary. For example swooping downwards with the afterburner on, then turning it off just as you hit the bottom of your 'curve' and start to fly upwards, giving you an angle and shifting your momentum such that you can do a much faster barrel roll, than had you just gone in a straight line.

[Nemises]

Ive came up with a solution i think will make both camps happy. Check this out and let me know your thoughts.

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=44179

yes...this is a good suggestion..

A simplified flying model (with some penalties as a result), and an advanced flying model..

..I guess no reason this couldn't be added into a vehicles Cert structure..
ie. you need to cert up on the mosquito to disable the auto stabilization... (auto stabalization in this case actually lowers the over all manuaverability of the aircraft by keeping you from approaching the edges of the flight envelope)

..Using a "hardcore"er flight model as an example,
In DCS:BlackShark, using the "simulation" flight model..the aircraft allready has a 4 channel "assistant", which auto stabilizes the aircraft in altitude, yaw and pitch....this helps the pilot in combat, as he doesn't need to manage the aircraft as much while "fighting" in it (single seat attack helicopter).
However, if the "flight Director" mode is engaged, all the automatic features are disabled (dampening is still enabled though thank goodness!), which measn the pilots inputs are taken as given by the flight control system...this mean less inputs from the pilot to achieve the same thing, and allows him to push the aircraft close to the edge....however, trying to also "fight" the aircraft in this configuration more often than not ends in a crash.

so...

perhaps even a cert to add a "flight director" type mode to each aircraft, which is essentially a toggle between Assisted and Unassisted flight modes....

tl:dr - good idea, should be able to "cert" to advanced flight mode

[LegioX]

One thing that worries me is that the developers have put no sense of "energy" into the game. You can fly up to 1000m and dive down, but your still going the same speed as if you were flying low to the ground with no elevator movement. I really wish they would fix this. As it is right now, boosters are the only way to increase and decrease speed in unlevel flight.

Also, i just don't understand why developers can not put in a good flight game with a ground game. As it stands now, WW2OL is really the only game where you mesh realistic ground game to a realistic flight game (where use to be 1,000 players on one map).
Now i can never find any games of this magnitude where developers give the same love to flying as they do ground. I don't know if its an area they don't understand fully (most people play FPS), but devs always neglect the air game.

1. Increase ceiling
2. Proper flight physics (you dont have to go crazy, just have something semi-realistic)

Would be a good start.

[Nemises]

I guess its a "price of entry" thing...balancing a persons "first 5 minutes" Vs the end game..

completely agree though, more "realistic" air modelling would add a lot of depth to the long game..

[Pyreal]

I think flying should be easy to get into, that is the control are such that you can begin to learn to fly. Getting in a flyer and constantly crashing because of wonky, unintuitive mechanics is frustrating, because you are trying to reason them out but there isn't any reason to them!

I think the Default aircraft should be similar to a player with Aim assist. It's easy to hit a target, but can't get headshots

All the complexity and skill requirements should come from Certs.

[Dairian]

imo controls should be the same aas PS1 but add the buttons for roll, dont see why they need to copy BF controls.

Flying in PS1 was like flying a camera. Why should we stay with poor mechanics? I only used aircraft in PS1 to travel because they were way to easy to fly and took no skill. I love the idea of making it more like a simulator. I will even fly in PS2.

[Enzo]

During the Total Biscuit stream they mentioned that flying wouldn't be as difficult as games like Battlefield 3. Personally, I find flying in BF3 to be pretty easy but there are some who flip the helicopter over before they even take off so it's going to vary from person to person.

I do think people will have to get used to the unique flying style of Planetside though wherein everything handles like a mix between a helicopter and jet.

[Kezz]

Having an auto stabiliser (stabilisers are what we brits call what I believe the leftpondians call "training wheels", so the name fits two ways) that you have to be certified to be able to turn off is a great idea. George (the autopilot) can help you, but he won't let you break the ATC flight rules. You could even allow him to be a panic button, so that you can have some sort of auto recovery from flight (nay, plummet) conditions that a human pilot might find difficult to recover from (especially without the proprioceptive feedback that a RL pilot has under his butt), but he'd stay on for a short while after regaining stability, so if you make that sort of error in a dogfight, you'll be an easy target for a few seconds.

[ZaBa]

yes...this is a good suggestion..

A simplified flying model (with some penalties as a result), and an advanced flying model.

tl:dr - good idea, should be able to "cert" to advanced flight mode

Or rather, the same flight model for everyone, but with an optional auto(co)pilot. Having to spend cert points to play hard mode would probably just irritate people though. If I'm good enough to fly well from the get-go, why should I be restricted just because I don't have enough "experience" in this particular game?

[Arovien]

Check out what was suggested here:
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=44179

Sounds fair, yet if piloting air is easier than it is in BF3, keep it as. No need to dumb it down even more. The average gamer can pick up BF3 piloting in a day or two.

[Sifer2]

Meh Piloting should be hard. Even driving ground vehicles should be hard. I don't understand why people always wanted baby controls for vehicles in FPS games. People want the shooting to take skill but for the vehicles to be no skill pwn machines, and I just don't see the reasoning. Air Vehicles in particular can be so freaking annoying when in the hands of a good player. Which is why I relish the thought of them being difficult to control, and for it to be very hard to just hover in one spot spamming people to death. Forcing them to have to actually make passes over their targets really helps out if your Infantry on the ground. If you survive the first pass you can take cover or equip an AV launcher if you have one an be ready for them the next pass.

I also don't see it as being that bad of a thing if there are noobs who just cannot fly worth diddly. Let them do something else then. Not everyone should be able to be a good pilot. Or a good sniper. Dumbing stuff down just cheapens it for the people that are good enough to rise to the task.

[Landtank]

what does this have to do with the controls?

It has quite a lot to do with controls, is that a serious question?

[Ghoest9]

I like the way it was in PS1

It wasnt hard for me to learn how to fly around and land.

But when it came to combat other more talented pilots destroyed me.

[Synapse]

i hope its so hard that most people crash straight into a mountain their first 10 flights.

Leave piloting to a dedicated pilot class of players who put time in to learn it.

[Machingunjo]

i hope its so hard that most people crash straight into a mountain their first 10 flights.

Leave piloting to a dedicated pilot class of players who put time in to learn it.

agreed. I'm a real pilot. As well as a simulator junkie. BF3 flight is cakewalk.
Taking into consideration how many aircraft will be in the sky at any one point in time. Flying should be pretty damn hard in order to balance the field.

[maradine]

I just fired up my 30 free days - first time on Auraxis in 6ish years.

Guys. Seriously.

The flight model in BF3 is a vast improvement over PS1. I'm not saying we should hold it up as a model - it's certainly simplistic and has its own stupid idiosyncrasies. But you can't ignore that it uncoupled roll from yaw and doesn't arbitrarily lock your absolute pitch at +/-85º.

If they just ripped the flight model straight out of BF3, I be disappointed, but it'd still be miles better that the hour of torture I just went through.

[LegioX]

If the BF 3 flight model is a vast improvement over PS 1, man i would hate to see how that flight model was. Just make the flight model in PS 2 feel like ur actually flying. When you can climb up to 1000m and dive down to sea level and not gain 1 ounce of speed, that is a problem.

[Comet]

I didn't realize that you didn't gain speed if you were in a dive. I certainly hope they add this in...

[LegioX]

I didn't realize that you didn't gain speed if you were in a dive. I certainly hope they add this in...

Yes if you look at one of the live commentary videos, TB ask Higby to see how high the ceiling is. He uses a scythe and climbs up to 1000m. After a look around the map he goes back down to sea level. Speed hangs aroudn 180-181 and never increases. Only time it increase is when he uses boosters and it goes up to 325ish for a few seconds. But the moment he lets go, goes right back to 180.

[ChookWantan]

I don't think the "dual difficulties" approach solves what I'm worried about. I like to master my craft, but my mastery doesn't mean nearly as much if someone can turn on auto stabilization and start flying like a decent pilot. I mean, sure, I'll still be able to shoot these guys out of the sky, but the training wheels they get just make them a little but harder to do so.

Give everyone the same flight mechanics, let skill differentiate the good from the bad.

[LegioX]

Skip to
32min 53sec and you will see what im talking about.


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[Nemises]

Or rather, the same flight model for everyone, but with an optional auto(co)pilot. Having to spend cert points to play hard mode would probably just irritate people though. If I'm good enough to fly well from the get-go, why should I be restricted just because I don't have enough "experience" in this particular game?

yeah, true...

..certs idea was just a random thought really...

[ComerEste]

What some of you see as a negative, me and my friends see as an awesome positive. You complain that it might be too hard to fly. We see it as a challenge, and if we can master it, we will rack up the kills on all you noob pilots that dare enter our skies. The type of training nights we have planned for PS2 almost makes me more excited than getting into the beta. (almost:cool:)

Discussing this topic is fine, but what really gets under my skin is people complaining about a feature in the game that they haven't even tried yet. I think it's mostly just people wording their sentences wrongly, but that's how I feel.

Not blaming anyone except MMO developers, but one thing I've noticed from MMO's of late is how spoon fed the communities are. "Waaah, we can't beat this content." and then they scream bloody murder for nerfs. Never mind the thousands of people that down the content just fine. Get better at the role you want to play or pick another role. PS2 is going to allow people to finally specialize into specific roles. If you don't want to be a pilot, stay the hell out of the cockpit. Don't ruin it for those who do want to fly as their PS2 profession.

[Khellendros]

From that video it doesn't look like the flight physics include momentum, because the scythe's speed went from 325 to 180 instantly. That kind of deceleration would kill the pilot, heh. But yea, I hope that it was just for E3 demo purposes that they set it up this way...

[Landtank]

I just hope that it won't be all about shooting lock-on missiles.

Agreed, Wasp's pretty much made flying in PS1 not fun for me, atleast when they show up.

[Bobby Shaftoe]

I just hope that it won't be all about shooting lock-on missiles.
Deflection shooting is far too hard for the 'modern' gamer crowd, better max out certs on flares/countermeasures.

It seems the only real 'improvement' over PS1 flight model is the full freedom of movement, everything else still looks exactly like a flying camera, even the inertia/momentum in turns looks minimal.

It will be interesting to see if the physics/game engine nullifies the old powerslide exploit, especially since base speeds are higher and a mozzie can AB up to 460+ kph.

[Reizod]

Aircraft are some of most powerful war assests to have in a battle. There SHOULD be a step learning curve for flying them. If it is too easy and simple, then the sky will be full of them just like in PS1.

Being a real life student pilot myself, if gives me much pride to know that I managed to master something that not everyone can do.

So if I spend most of my time in the cockpit... err... box office (for Maggie's sake) I want all the upgrades used and time spent flying to payoff. If and when I get shot down by another aircraft... I know at least that person has some skill, and not because the game held their hand.

I say, the devs are on the right track to make air combat unique and fun to PS2.

[LegioX]

Don't understand why developers want to simplify the flight game. Make it a challenge.

Seems i have to find a flight sim to just enjoy flying, however i want something where i impact the ground game also.

[GTGD]

Basically what everyone wants is to make flight controls and basic maneuvers (like pitching and rolling) easy to perform for whoever, while giving us robust physics that will allow players to manipulate the aircraft and do cool stuff like immelmans and barrel rolls without a button press.

[LegioX]

Basically what everyone wants is to make flight controls and basic maneuvers (like pitching and rolling) easy to perform for whoever, while giving us robust physics that will allow players to manipulate the aircraft and do cool stuff like immelmans and barrel rolls without a button press.


Also give aircraft energy or speed while diving and climbing. Just doesnt feel right going from 1000m straight down and not gaining any speed in the process.

[GTGD]

Also give aircraft energy or speed while diving and climbing. Just doesnt feel right going from 1000m straight down and not gaining any speed in the process.

When I mentioned physics, this is the kind of stuff that would fall under that. It would give life to real-world tactics, so instead of "lol i'm just gonna spiral down and bank hard" you'll actually need to make sure you have enough height and that you decelerate quick enough to avoid crashing.

[Comet]

ComerEste, I think you're taking this discussion a bit out of context. Most people here are simply stating they do want it to be a challenge that rewards skill but at the same time, doesn't eliminate or discourage newer pilots from picking it up.

Experienced pilots are able to get the upper hand while new players still have the ability to learn and not get frustrated with the mechanics. How does that translate to people complaining or MMO's being dumbed down? I don't think that's an accurate assessment of what people have been saying in this thread =/

Everyone actually just keeps saying the same thing more or less which I mentioned in the first paragraph.

[Pyreal]

Having to spend cert points to play hard mode would probably just irritate people though.

A few posts here want hard mode default(unassisted flight, or whatever they mean), if they really want it, let them specialize into it. They want to be 'Dedicated pilots' after all, so therefore they can spend their Cert points and 'dedicate' themselves.


Don't understand why developers want to simplify the flight game. Make it a challenge.

Seems i have to find a flight sim to just enjoy flying, however i want something where i impact the ground game also.

The word you're looking for is 'Accessibility', that is what the Devs want. They want the most amount of people to have fun, not make a feature of this VIDEO GAME to cater to a group. I'm not saying that is right or wrong, I'm simply saying that is what they want.
The only option is through Certs, where a player willfully chooses to change the dynamics of his flyer to suit his own play style.
And you're right, if you want RL flight mechanics, don't look for it in a syfy FPS.


For some of the posts the underlying fear is this: 'I've dedicated myself and this n00b just shot me down.' Know what?! May the best man win!
You're "Dedication" obviously ain't what you think it is if you just got your 343h butt shot off by a 5m player.



Also give aircraft energy or speed while diving and climbing. Just doesnt feel right going from 1000m straight down and not gaining any speed in the process.

The flyer was a Scythe which has different dynamics than the other flyers, this may account for that. Only beta will tell.

[Khellendros]

Has Higby ever stated what the flight physics will include/not include?

[Pyreal]

ComerEste, I think you're taking this discussion a bit out of context. Most people here are simply stating they do want it to be a challenge that rewards skill but at the same time, doesn't eliminate or discourage newer pilots from picking it up.

Experienced pilots are able to get the upper hand while new players still have the ability to learn and not get frustrated with the mechanics. How does that translate to people complaining or MMO's being dumbed down? I don't think that's an accurate assessment of what people have been saying in this thread =/

Everyone actually just keeps saying the same thing more or less which I mentioned in the first paragraph.


Spot on, Comet! :thumbsup:

[bkx]

I really liked the gunships in BF2142. They are extremely difficult to fly well, and new pilots almost always crash and die. But after mastering them, flying a gunship is one of the most satisfying gaming experiences I've ever had.

[Comet]

I have many fond memories of flying a heavy transport ship with 4 heavy troopers armed with motars around a base like a gunship in Tribes 2.

I am looking forward to every aspect of flying in PS2. The hot drops, the air-air, air-ground and the bomber runs.

I know this is off-topic, I am just having trouble not thinking about this epic looking game :)

[Tatwi]

I am happy that flying in PS2 will be more than just pointing the camera in the right direction. Having some actual flight dynamics will be a lot of fun. However, I'd hate to see something like Pacific Fighters, which is so much like a flight sim that it's hard to get off the ground, let alone avoid stalling when making a tight turn, etc. I love flying games, but PF was a waste of money for me, because I just couldn't play it no matter how hard I tried (which admittedly, was not at all after the first two hours of frustration and boredom).

There's a nice balance to be had here, somewhere between arcade style and flight sim. I'm sure they'll nail it. SWG's flight was pretty good, apart from the hovering and insta-air-brakes.

[Timey]

imo controls should be the same aas PS1 but add the buttons for roll, dont see why they need to copy BF controls.

ever heard of rebinding, reconfiguring, binding "k" that does something to "b"? :doh:

god damnit.

[Vydofnir]

What some of you see as a negative, me and my friends see as an awesome positive. You complain that it might be too hard to fly. We see it as a challenge, and if we can master it, we will rack up the kills on all you noob pilots that dare enter our skies. The type of training nights we have planned for PS2 almost makes me more excited than getting into the beta. (almost:cool:)

It seems to me that the goal of the developers is to make the game as fun as possible for as many people as possible. People who want a perfectly even playing field will represent one end of the spectrum, and people who want to completely dominate will represent the other extreme, but I think that most of us fall somewhere in between. The developers have made it very clear that they want to provide a gaming experience that is both accessible to new players and challenging for experienced players.

I don't think anyone is arguing that people who have invested time into developing a particular skill shouldn't have an advantage over those who haven't. The question is what degree of accessibility leads to a challenging, rewarding, and (most importantly) entertaining experience for all players? I don't think treating a single aspect of a game like it's a part-time job for the sole purpose of completely dominating all but a small percentage of the player population is most people's idea of fun.

I see it like this: If I decide to focus my time into developing my skills in close quarters combat, I want to feel a sense of accomplishment, but I also want a challenge. A part of what makes games like this enjoyable is the thrill of knowing that at any given time any given player can be a very real threat to any other player. This ensures that I will have a challenging and rewarding experience regardless of how long I've been playing, or how long my enemies have been playing.

[Sledgecrushr]

It would be cool if the joystick was just as effective as the mouse. And vice versa, I wouldnt want the mk elitists to quit because flight was too hard with the devices they love so much.

[meiam]

Imo they should focus 100% on making great intuitive control that let you do everything you should be able to do in an aircraft. Wether it's difficult or not shouldn't matter as once the control are perfected everything should fall into place by itself.

As far as physic goes, just make it realistic, I really hope momentum is actually included

[maradine]

Imo they should focus 100% on making great intuitive control that let you do everything you should be able to do in an aircraft.

This is actually the sticky part. What's intuitive to someone who is used to slewing their view around with a mouse will be unintuitive to someone who is used to directly addressing individual control surfaces, and vice versa. I don't envy them for having to find the balance.

[ZaBa]

I am happy that flying in PS2 will be more than just pointing the camera in the right direction. Having some actual flight dynamics will be a lot of fun. However, I'd hate to see something like Pacific Fighters, which is so much like a flight sim that it's hard to get off the ground, let alone avoid stalling when making a tight turn, etc. I love flying games, but PF was a waste of money for me, because I just couldn't play it no matter how hard I tried (which admittedly, was not at all after the first two hours of frustration and boredom).

Pacific Fighters is a flight sim :rolleyes:

Though I can agree with your point that an excess of realism, particularly in a game set in the space future, is probably bad. All anybody really wants out of flight* is the feeling of realism in the flight itself (which really just means a little input lag, weight, and bounce) and for everything else to be more or less like Ace Combat. No totally unavoidable one-hit kills, no instant pilot death if a puny rifle round hits your canopy, more than 14 seconds worth of ammunition, lots of things to shoot at, lots of things shooting at you, and an average life expectancy of no less than 2 minutes.

In short: "realistic" flight, arcadey combat. Energy goes in the latter category, being a major concern in combat if it's something you have to worry about, and also because it ties into all the complex stuff that nobody really wants to have to deal with. There are certainly tweaks/hacks that can be used to reproduce most of the feeling without the reality, but it's not my job or place to suggest them.

*People who want real realism have it in other games, and shouldn't expect to find any in a silly sci-fi shooter, so they don't count.

[SKYeXile]

ever heard of rebinding, reconfiguring, binding "k" that does something to "b"? :doh:

god damnit.

...you're aware that most games now use A and D for yaw and not the mouse? meaning roll likely needs to be on a controllable axis of a mouse or joystick, so rebinding that is gonna be pretty fucking pointless putting you at a disadvantage.

But i don't expect most people here to understand this.

[ComerEste]

ComerEste, I think you're taking this discussion a bit out of context. Most people here are simply stating they do want it to be a challenge that rewards skill but at the same time, doesn't eliminate or discourage newer pilots from picking it up.

Experienced pilots are able to get the upper hand while new players still have the ability to learn and not get frustrated with the mechanics. How does that translate to people complaining or MMO's being dumbed down? I don't think that's an accurate assessment of what people have been saying in this thread =/

Everyone actually just keeps saying the same thing more or less which I mentioned in the first paragraph.

As I said, I think some people just worded their sentences weird and gave me the wrong impression. Also, since I don't post much, when I do it tends to be a reply to several threads that I have been reading.:rolleyes:

[Qel]

I hope they keep it more like actual flight than PS1 was/is, I know it needs to be easy for people to get into and have a go up to a certain point so I'm not expecting the difficulty of a full on flight sim. At the same time it would be nice if flying had enough to it that many hours of practice can pay off in terms of making a big difference on the battlefield.

Personally I'd really like to make my PS2 career one of being a pilot, I never really bothered in PS1 but the new flight mechanics make it more attractive to me. So whilst I understand the need to have an entry level access for people who might just want to have a go occasionally using keyboard/mouse, hopefully it will have enough difficulty that practice is worthwhile and if I can use a joystick, trackir and pedals to add to that dedication in my chosen role then great I will.

Certainly sounds like a situation in which they're doing some very good things but they're also not going to please everyone. Perhaps better to keep it 'difficult' and then see if everyone is just constantly and continually throwing aircraft into the walls during the beta and not improving with time before 'toning things down'?

[Nemises]

..I guess it makes "sense" to map the mouse to a virtual control stick, which would mean pitch/roll , however, as it is very difficult and annoying to have to deal with accidental input from a mouse (especially when the feedback isn't immediate, ie it takes some time for the control surfaces to overcome impetus) , you end up getting into a situation where you oscillate back and forth, left and right to find the right balance..
With a joystick with discreet input axis, it is much easier and more intuitive to input the correct instructions..

and so, it actually makes more sence to map the mouse to pitch (up down) + yaw...
In a real aircraft, Yaw actually has a significant impact on roll anyway, so SOE could allow a hybridised Yaw / Roll for the X axis on the mouse..

Anyways,
Yet another challenge for the gameplay team :)..man, don't envy them making these kind of decisions...damned if you do, damned if you don't....best is to just let everything be possible and let the players decide which they prefer...

[ParisTeta]

Easy to learn, everyone who want to fly, should have access BUT in the Air we have no trees/rocks/bases maybe later clouds and we have the sun, so the light model should be complex enough, that this forms the enviroment in the air, this must feel good, so tere is alot of fun.

[Rean]

i am looking for smth similar to BF3 helicopter flight model.
it was easy enough not to crash every second, and good enough for skilled pilots maneuvers. (instant 180 turns, diving, ground gliding etc)

[CrystalViolet]

I just want air to air battles to be fun and balanced instead of this dive for the flight ceiling and turret shit that goes on in PS1. So much of Planetside is "hey I have more armor than you so I don't have to be tactical"

[Landtank]

I just want air to air battles to be fun and balanced instead of this dive for the flight ceiling and turret shit that goes on in PS1. So much of Planetside is "hey I have more armor than you so I don't have to be tactical"

Agreed

I'm can't wait for Beta, knowing that pretty much whatever they do will be better than Planetside 1's system. PS1 flying really requires no skill and is all about numbers and armor.

[Marinealver]

I thought it was funny watching those noobs flying the suiscythe into the ground.

[LegioX]

Higby, i want a check 6 view for aircraft. MAKE IT HAPPEN!

[Kezz]

Something that will probably have an impact on the resolution of air combat is the improved hitboxes that have been mentioned, and directional armour. If the Reaver (say) has tinfoil rear protection, compared to the Scythe, its front armour won't matter so much for air-to-air combat. If you can aim for engine nacelles and cockpits, skill in piloting will be ultra-important.

[LegioX]

Im hoping we can substitute missiles for a crap load of guns on the wings. Nothing pleases me more than to have about 8 forward firing guns for dogfighting.

[Comet]

From the E3 footage it looked like the load-outs were simple.
Air-Air? Get lock on air rockets and the machine gun.
Air-Ground? Dumb fire ground rockets and the machine gun.

It looks like the real customization comes in your certs and the 3 special equipment slots that were shown from the E3 footage.

I can't remember the exact names but it was something like, Utility, Performance and Defence.

[Folly]

I loved the floating camera of PS1.

In my opinion, every game developer should consider it his job to allow the gamers the ability to control their character as easily as possible. For me, fun comes from exploring all the amazing things my avatar can do. Conversely, I find struggling against unresponsive controls to be tedious and frustrating. I feel that deliberately making a game difficult to control in order to challenge players just to move around is one of the laziest and worst decisions a game designer can pursue.

I do like the fact that aircraft can now do flips and barrel rolls, and appreciate that the 'floating camera' is being reworked in order to allow pilots more options. However, all the talk of requiring great skill to fly has me very worried that they might just be making controls deliberately difficult so that aircraft won't be overpowered. I guess I'll just have to wait for beta and see for myself.

[Comet]

Folly, I don't think you're going to have anything to worry about. They aren't going to make flying difficult to the point where most people get discouraged. That's not to say that practice will not make you better though.

[PeteHMB]

Personally, I can't stand it when flight controls are dumbed down to the point where a blind quadriplegic with down syndrome can pick up the game and fly as well as someone who's put in hours and hours of practicing. One of the main reasons I stopped playing Battlefield (and never picked it back up so I don't know how it may have improved) was after the BF1942 Desert Combat mod, they changed the flight controls and physics. BF Vietnam had horribly easy flight controls, introduced autohover, etc. BF2 continued this "ease of use", and the next thing you know a 5 year old kid screaming into the mic is insulting your sexual orientation, masculinity, heritage, and everything else while touting his own "skill" at piloting. In Desert Combat, choppers weren't overly difficult to control, but difficult to fly well. They were difficult to maneuver, land, and gun, but extremely rewarding when you could master it. Having a skilled black hawk pilot on your team meant capturing points was faster (flying in, dropping troops, providing air support, landing, picking up, flying to next capture point). A skilled pilot could turn the course of a battle, while an unskilled one would simply crash repeatedly. Seeing the E3 footage of people crash repeatedly gave me a great deal of delight that the air wouldn't be swarmed with people crashing into everything needlessly. I'm hoping that difficult air controls will contribute to heavier armor columns and more infantry being supported by skilled pilots, as well as give outfits specializing in air support / air cavalry a more important role to play with the zerg.

[maradine]

I feel that deliberately making a game difficult to control in order to challenge players just to move around is one of the laziest and worst decisions a game designer can pursue.

On this we are in ~90% agreement (I'd debate "lazy"). However difficult mastery of the model may end up being, anyone with the desire should at least be able to hop into a cockpit, get the bird into the air, and be able to have some fun with it, regardless of their chosen input type.

I don't expect anyone else to enjoy the 5 minutes it takes to start up an A-10, or trying to get a wounded bomber back onto the runway in a 50mph crosswind. But for those masochists, I do hope there's some headroom in the model to allow for virtuosity.

[ChookWantan]

I don't expect anyone else to enjoy the 5 minutes it takes to start up an A-10, or trying to get a wounded bomber back onto the runway in a 50mph crosswind. But for those masochists, I do hope there's some headroom in the model to allow for virtuosity.

I don't think anyone here is arguing for such needless realisms, this is the future after all. We just want a vehicle with some weight and limitations. I want to feel like I'm piloting a piece of serious machinery with some powerful thrusters, not a hunk of styrofoam.

[maradine]

True - definitely hyperbole on my part. But don't underestimate the complexities of flying styrofoam. (http://gajitz.com/building-to-the-sky-flying-robots-take-on-architecture/) =D

[ChookWantan]

Put a Vanu on that and you've got your scythe lol

[Kezz]

I don't expect anyone else to enjoy the 5 minutes it takes to start up an A-10...
Yeah, that's just interfering with one's ability to play the game :)

...or trying to get a wounded bomber back onto the runway...
I'm no crack pilot, but I think it'd be cool for the flight characteristics of your steed to begin to degenerate after a certain level of damage. Scraping the last bomber you can build back to base on 1 HP should be harder than doing it at 100%, and the sort of thing that takes some skill and a degree of persistence/doggedness.


...in a 50mph crosswind...
Oh man. Weather effects. Attacking in rain to keep the JABOs off your back. Flying in heavy weather should definitely be more challenging.


I do hope there's some headroom in the model to allow for virtuosity.
So say we all.

[Sabot]

As long as they act like freaking aircraft, and not magically flying bricks with cannons on them. That thing they do in PS1.. where the plane keeps turning if you don't center your mouse, even though you aren't moving it... complete bullshit. And that goes for the Mag as well.

[Nemises]

I loved the floating camera of PS1.

In my opinion, every game developer should consider it his job to allow the gamers the ability to control their character as easily as possible. For me, fun comes from exploring all the amazing things my avatar can do. Conversely, I find struggling against unresponsive controls to be tedious and frustrating. I feel that deliberately making a game difficult to control in order to challenge players just to move around is one of the laziest and worst decisions a game designer can pursue.

I do like the fact that aircraft can now do flips and barrel rolls, and appreciate that the 'floating camera' is being reworked in order to allow pilots more options. However, all the talk of requiring great skill to fly has me very worried that they might just be making controls deliberately difficult so that aircraft won't be overpowered. I guess I'll just have to wait for beta and see for myself.

That approach gives the game less depth than it could otherwise have though...
Depth keeps players playing...

..sure you'll be satisfied for a few weeks playing a flying camera, but then it just becomes a utility (as in PS1) ... no motivation to improve, as you've hit the improvement ceiling 5 minutes after trying it for the first time.

I guess it is two separate schools of thought though...SOE just have to make sure both schools are catered for , to keep everyone happy :)...good luck SOE!

[SKYeXile]

That approach gives the game less depth than it could otherwise have though...
Depth keeps players playing...

..sure you'll be satisfied for a few weeks playing a flying camera, but then it just becomes a utility (as in PS1) ... no motivation to improve, as you've hit the improvement ceiling 5 minutes after trying it for the first time.

I guess it is two separate schools of thought though...SOE just have to make sure both schools are catered for , to keep everyone happy :)...good luck SOE!

Yea that didn't really happen, for anybody.

[The Degenatron]

Nex time, make it a Poll.

I'd have vote for "difficult"

[Goldeh]

I thought the Dev's said flying in PS1 was like flying the fps camera.

[Sledgecrushr]

I thought the Dev's said flying in PS1 was like flying the fps camera.

Ive heard higby flies with a complete flight simulator setup. Since this game has advanced physics, weight and flight surfaces are taken into consideration.

[SKYeXile]

I thought the Dev's said flying in PS1 was like flying the fps camera.

This is what alot of people say, those people still suck at it.

[Goldeh]

I suppose it's hard to complain about something that's hard when you're good at it. Cos' then you get paid more, cos of your skilled labour versus the other guy who doesn't know what the fuck.

In a world like today though everything is pretty much automatic and in order to keep up with societies demands companies must do the same. That's why you see automated car factories and planes that can fly themselves with nary of twist or turn from the pilot. Generally, it's better to do things automatically because it's easier and less costly which is what the human race has been doing since day one of it's existence, making things easier.

Thus, aircraft piloting will be hard but not too hard. Cos you'll suck at it at the start then get good. Just like the start of the human race where things were depressing and committed suicide was a national past time. As the human race got to know the game of life though, it too became good at the game and thus the game got easier and some other things.

I don't know what the point of my reply is.