Planetside 2 and Cloud Gaming ?

[KaB]

http://kotaku.com/5922775/sony-buys-a-cloud-gaming-service

I just found this new article from Kotaku talking about Sony going to buy a cloud gaming service. If you don't know what is Cloud Gaming and want to try it, search OnLive on google, sign up and download it.
To make a long story short, the Cloud Gaming makes the game running somewhere on earth on a very big and powerful computer, and through its connexion the player will receive images from this big computer and will control it with its peripherals.

Planetside 2 isn't mentionned in the article. But even if sony is a huge company, its Planetside 2 might become one of its biggest game ever with this growing up success from the social networks. And I started to believe that it could be just awesome because Cloud Gaming allow players to play any kind of game on any kind of computer/device having a good internet connexion. So people who don't have a powerful computer will be able to play the game with best graphics without any lag.
It'll also settle the hacker problem as the players won't have any access to the game files.

Now the question is : will it be financially advantageous for Sony ? Especially for a F2P ?

[ChipMHazard]

I could see this possibility being a very profitable one, if PS2 ends up being popular.
The ability for those with fiber, or just very good connection, to be able to play PS2 without having to invest in an expensive system would open up the market even more. The more players you have playing the game the more players you have that could be converted into buyers. Also with the money they saved they might be more inclined to purchase ingame... stuff.
Of course the amount of consumers able to use cloud services to an acceptable degree is still limited, but growing.

Edit: As has been pointed out in latter posts I am being a wee bit too optimistic about cloud gaming and it's current viability in certain genres.

[Vanath]

PS2 could be one of SOE's largest games, but probably not a large part of Sony's revenue. They have far more services that will pay for this. I'm not very sure PS2 will even use it. It sounds like they more intend to use it for handheld devices. Whatever Sony plans to do with it i'm sure it will pay for itself.

Relevant article: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-07-02/sony-to-buy-cloud-gaming-company-gaikai-for-380-million

[ChipMHazard]

PS2 could be one of SOE's largest games, but probably not a large part of Sony's revenue. They have far more services that will pay for this. I'm not very sure PS2 will even use it. It sounds like they more intend to use it for handheld devices. Whatever Sony plans to do with it i'm sure it will pay for itself.

Relevant article: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-07-02/sony-to-buy-cloud-gaming-company-gaikai-for-380-million

Aye Sony's main interest lie in their consoles and handhelds, not the pc market. Atleast not until they can make the pc market into a more viable console experience, which cloud services could do in the future.

[xnorb]

So people who don't have a powerful computer will be able to play the game with best graphics without any lag.

That's so LOL.

a) OnlIve offers only 720p resolution (In contrary to my 1920x1200)
b) You need a good network connection with enough bandwidth and low
enough latency to get an acceptable result.

So funny, i know when TFTs hit the market, FPS gamers worried about
the high reaction times of the monitors and now FPS gamers are supposed
to accept input lag to up to 100ms ? LOL

People with low specs computers usually also don't invest a lot in their
internet connection - so most likely don't have the low latency, high speed
internet that's strongly advised for such services.


On a side note:
Lag is network related, only many misuse it when they encounter frame
drops or CPU hangs. So it's up to your connection if there's lag or not.

[Vreki]

I dont think you will see this with an FPS game.
In a "traditional" game your avatar still responds at once regardless of latency, because you have zero latency to your own client.
But with this concept, every mouse movement have to make it to the server, then the server calculates how your movements looks and send them back.

It might be possible if the servers are hosted really close to where you live so there is very minimal latency.

Imagine that you live in Australia, but a friend lives next to where PS is hosted. So you Remote Desktop to his PC and plays PS on it. Does that sound like a pleasant experience.?

[Shogun]

wouldn´t a cloud service solve the hardware problems of the ps3?

sony could link the ps3 to a cloud gaming service and it would be able to run games like planetside 2 with no problems. the playstation would not have to handle the full game, but only the cloudgaming client and maybe the voip part.
give the cloudgaming client full keyboard and mouse support and link it to the playstation plus service, and you have a powerful gaming solution for a wide audience.

[Vreki]

give the cloudgaming client full keyboard and mouse support and link it to the playstation plus service, and you have a powerful gaming solution for a wide audience.

I fear that "wide audience" would be limited to people with fibre-optic connections living less than 20 miles from the hosting center.

Chess in the cloud? Sure, no problem. MMOFPS? I doubt, because of the reason stated in the posts above.

[KaB]

OnLive looks terrible I agree. But it's only the beginning !

When everybody will have a fiber at 100mbps connexion speed around the world we'll start to see some interesting stuff.

[Shade Millith]

wouldn´t a cloud service solve the hardware problems of the ps3?

sony could link the ps3 to a cloud gaming service and it would be able to run games like planetside 2 with no problems. the playstation would not have to handle the full game, but only the cloudgaming client and maybe the voip part.
give the cloudgaming client full keyboard and mouse support and link it to the playstation plus service, and you have a powerful gaming solution for a wide audience.

Cloud gaming is for those with poor spec systems, and those situated very close to the servers.

For everyone else, it's going to be a much worse experience than simply running the thing from your own unit. Low resolutions, latency everywhere.

[ChipMHazard]

I fear that "wide audience" would be limited to people with fibre-optic connections living less than 20 miles from the hosting center.

Chess in the cloud? Sure, no problem. MMOFPS? I doubt, because of the reason stated in the posts above.

Very true. The potential playerbase almost certainly won't grow fast enough for the service to become part of PS2, even years after launch.


When everybody will have a fiber at 100mbps connexion speed around the world we'll start to see some interesting stuff.

For that to happen we will have to wait many, many years.

[Cosmical]

Cloud gaming is fine for single player games like Batman Arkham City. Games where you can just enjoy and play.

Competative multiplayer though, i dont think so. Although the ping is barely noticable, add onto that server delay, and differing player packet deliveries, it would be nigh unplayable.

That being said, if you are willing to lose a fair fight through no fault of your own, then not having to spend a grand on a new PC may be totally worth it. Plus i put up with alot worse than DELAY when i first started playing PS1 on my dial up that cut me off every two hours.

EDIT - Cloud gaming is like looking down at someone from on high and trying to command them to dodge cars via a mobile phone.

And cloud competative gaming is like giving someone else the commands to dodge the cars, and then them having to shout it accross the street.

[Vreki]

OnLive looks terrible I agree. But it's only the beginning !

When everybody will have a fiber at 100mbps connexion speed around the world we'll start to see some interesting stuff.

Unfortunately, that is just an increase in bandwitdh, not a decrease in latency.
So while they may be able to send 999999 times as many mouseclicks a second as we do today., those mouseclicks still have 100ms travel time to the server.

I got a 30Mb/s fibre connection, and I got just as much lag as anybody else.
Steam games arrives almost instantly though :)

[Molkien]

OnLive cordons off players from the regular PC users, so for instance if you are playing Assassin's Creed Multiplayer, you are only playing against other OnLive users. So unless they make a separate server in PS2 for OnLive users, I don't see it happening.

[Sirisian]

Would be nice to play Planetside 2 at work. At my university I get an 8 ms latency to their server making playing any game feel local on an integrated graphics computer. I'm sure many university students would appreciate being able to play using a lab computer. That and anyone with the bandwidth in chicago or texas since they have 4 ms type latency to the OnLive servers.

Edit, I've used Gaikai before. Seemed like a lower quality version of OnLive. That was over a year ago though when I tried it. I assume they've expanded a lot by now.

[Nemises]

...early days though..."within 10 years", no one will have a high spec PC anymore (at least not for gaming)..
...why should I when I can just play on my iPad the same quality gaming I used to have a $3000 PC for ?

*-edit* to clarify, I am implying that cloud streaming services will become very big...no need for local computing power...just need a low power viewing device, some method for inputs and a network connection.....instead of forking out $3000 , you'll instead pay $300 a year for a "premium" power gaming service...

[ChipMHazard]

Cloud gaming might just become the de facto way to play video games, it will however take more than 10 years and, until latency issues become so minute that it's no longer a real issue, PC's are still going to be around.

[james]

So the company that can't make money and lost so much money, go out and blow 380 million

[Sledgecrushr]

Cloud gaming is the future of PC gaming so we better start getting used to the idea now. Of course cloud gaming is kind of new so for it to be totally awesome is still down the road a ways.

[Vreki]

Cloud gaming is the future of PC gaming so we better start getting used to the idea now. Of course cloud gaming is kind of new so for it to be totally awesome is still down the road a ways.

Cloud gaming, should it ever happen, will be the death of PC gaming.
You would have to be pretty daft to spend thousands of dollars on a PC, just to get the same streamed expereince as you can get on your Smart TV.

But first you will have to get rid of certain annoying physical contraints, like the speed of ligth in a fibre optic cable, not to mention all the delays in router, switches etc.

Or in other words, someone need to get a Nobel Prize for a major discovery before FPS gaming goes into the cloud.

[Sledgecrushr]

Cloud gaming, should it ever happen, will be the death of PC gaming.
You would have to be pretty daft to spend thousands of dollars on a PC, just to get the same streamed expereince as you can get on your Smart TV.

But first you will have to get rid of certain annoying physical contraints, like the speed of ligth in a fibre optic cable, not to mention all the delays in router, switches etc.

Or in other words, someone need to get a Nobel Prize for a major discovery before FPS gaming goes into the cloud.

Its not the speed of light that works against us in cloud gaming its old copper wiring in the middle of everyones network. So yeah this is the future of pc gaming. This is the death of console gaming. As the kinks are worked out, as networks are improved, this is certainly the way to go.

[ChipMHazard]

Cloud gaming, should it ever happen, will be the death of PC gaming.
You would have to be pretty daft to spend thousands of dollars on a PC, just to get the same streamed expereince as you can get on your Smart TV.

But first you will have to get rid of certain annoying physical contraints, like the speed of ligth in a fibre optic cable, not to mention all the delays in router, switches etc.

Or in other words, someone need to get a Nobel Prize for a major discovery before FPS gaming goes into the cloud.

Personally I see it more as the death of consoles, as cloud gaming really is the "ultimate" form of casual gaming.
There will always be people willing to pay for a high end machine and there isn't really any reasons as to why you shouldn't if that's what you want to spend your money on.
Also hardware companies still need to make a living:D

[Sledgecrushr]

Personally I see it more as the death of consoles, as cloud gaming really is the "ultimate" form of casual gaming.
There will always be people willing to pay for a high end machine and there isn't really any reasons as to why you shouldn't if that's what you want to spend your money on.
Also hardware companies still need to make a living:D

I think hardware companies are screwed, kind of like horse and buggy companies were when ford started mass producing the Model T. PCs of the future, will be similar to PCs of today...video card, hard drive, peripheral slots but this stuff would be cheaper than todays because the real computing muscle wont be done by your own machine. Buy a PC for a couple hundred dollars maybe the same price as a console and you will have the computing power of a supercomputer. The promise of cloud computing isnt fully realised yet. But the potentials for expanded pc gaming is pretty awesome.

[ChipMHazard]

I think hardware companies are screwed, kind of like horse and buggy companies were when ford started mass producing the Model T. PCs of the future, will be similar to PCs of today...video card, hard drive, peripheral slots but this stuff would be cheaper than todays because the real computing muscle wont be done by your own machine. Buy a PC for a couple hundred dollars maybe the same price as a console and you will have the computing power of a supercomputer. The promise of cloud computing isnt fully realised yet. But the potentials for expanded pc gaming is pretty awesome.

Of course therein lies the problem. Who's going to make say... the high end GPUs for the cloud gaming platforms if the pc gaming market is reduced to low end tech. They might be able to get enough business from the cloud gaming services and/or they might just switch over to making the more expensive industry GPU's. Although I probably shouldn't worry too much about this as I know Nvidia already has cloud gaming solutions. The future is coming and I'm sure the industry is gearing up for it.

[Sledgecrushr]

I imagine the smart manufacturers have alread geared the R&D into mega gfx processors for cloud computing.

[Shade Millith]

...early days though..."within 10 years", no one will have a high spec PC anymore (at least not for gaming)..
...why should I when I can just play on my iPad the same quality gaming I used to have a $3000 PC for ?

*-edit* to clarify, I am implying that cloud streaming services will become very big...no need for local computing power...just need a low power viewing device, some method for inputs and a network connection.....instead of forking out $3000 , you'll instead pay $300 a year for a "premium" power gaming service...

And I'm implying they'll go nowhere, for anyone even remotely into gaming.

Because it will look and play worse. Always.

The resolution and video quality you get from Onlive will NEVER be equal to a locally played game, and you will ALWAYS have control lag, added onto any multiplayer lag.

And as someone who loves his mods, and lives in a rural area, I hope Onlive dies a pitiful, whimpering death.

[Sledgecrushr]

And I'm implying they'll go nowhere, for anyone even remotely into gaming.

Because it will look and play worse. Always.

The resolution and video quality you get from Onlive will NEVER be equal to a locally played game, and you will ALWAYS have control lag, added onto any multiplayer lag.

Its like the guys who said the horse and buggy will ALWAYS be better than these loud clanking stinky newfangled auto mobiles. Its really funny to read an opinion saying that NOW is as good as it gets and nothing will ever or should ever change. Are you still playing Doom1?

[Doxy]

Cloud gaming if applied right, could overthrow consoles and be the next Facebook in few years.

[maradine]

The resolution and video quality you get from Onlive will NEVER be equal to a locally played game, and you will ALWAYS have control lag, added onto any multiplayer lag.

This is actually not the case. Most server instancing will be local to the OnLive cloud. The lag is not additive - you are trading additional input and display latency for the virtual elimination of client-server latency. There will be more perceptual lag, but less state conflict resolution stuff on the back end for the server to arbitrate.

I don't expect most FPS enthusiasts to cross over to this model. FPS enthusiasts, however, are a small fraction fo the gaming space and not the target market.

[Nasher]

It will be a very long time before cloud gaming is viable. Most people are still on the same quality/speed connections they were 10 years ago, which just aren't good enough :/

Even if everyone had 100mbit fibre there still wouldn't be enough bandwidth to go around on the back end. Especially for something like gaming, which needs instant response times. If you try something like Onlive now on a "normal" connection it's laggy, un-responsive and the picture quality is more like something you would expect to see on (non-HD) youtube...not good.

[Sledgecrushr]

And as the network systems improve over time input lag will disappear. Onlive isnt the answer today for fps gaming. But a system similar to onlive will be how we compute in the future.

[james]

Its not the speed of light that works against us in cloud gaming its old copper wiring in the middle of everyones network. So yeah this is the future of pc gaming. This is the death of console gaming. As the kinks are worked out, as networks are improved, this is certainly the way to go.

Problem is the US is a good 10-30 years away from having a network spreading the entire nation that can support this. Still a large part of the country is on dsl or even worse dial up

[Sirisian]

The resolution and video quality you get from Onlive will NEVER be equal to a locally played game, and you will ALWAYS have control lag, added onto any multiplayer lag.
You realize the resolution that most people play games at is only 1080p right? OnLive has this already working at 1080p on the micro-console for a while now. For PC it still defaults to 720p which requires from my test 5.3 mbps constant bandwidth. Surprisingly 720p on a 1080p screen doesn't create noticeable artifacts. They have some kind of scaling algorithm that makes it look rather crisp.

As for input lag that depends solely on what connection you have and where you live. Like I said most people near Chicago and into Michigan where I'm at have an unnoticeable input latency. (My brother is in Chicago and I had him test it). If you've tested it and lagged it's probably because you either lack the bandwidth, you're using a bad connection, or your too far from their few data centers.

Also I don't think you understand how OnLive or Gaikai would work with Planetside 2. You'd connect to the cloud service then the cloud service would be connected to the Las Vegas Planetside 2 servers. Now OnLive and Gaikai are built into the backbone of the Internet physically located at ISPs and major hubs and incur no last mile delay.

As an example my packets in Michigan go to Chicago then to Las Vegas. Since OnLive (as an example) has a server located in Chicago the only possible extra latency I'd see is from the rendering on OnLive to me (which is 4 ms one-way in my case).

[Dreamcast]

I just tried On Live...It looks like crap, maybe is my internet connection and they don't have 1080p.



I see the potential of On Live in the future if internet connections get better and they offer 1080p.



Im sure Steam or somebody else will provide it one day for single players games.

[Sirisian]

I just tried On Live...It looks like crap, maybe is my internet connection and they don't have 1080p.
Can you do something for me. Keep it running for a while while playing an intensive game. Their algorithm will continue to increase the quality. Now open up the resource monitor in Windows 7 and view the network usage for OnLive. If you've never used OnLive before it'll start low at like 3.5 mbps then go up to 4 for a while then continue to 5.3 up to 6 mbps and the quality will get extremely crisp.
(Right click view image, it should be noted their algorithms are velocity based so they compress moving images really well so it tends to look even better in motion). In my image it's using 5.8 mbps aka 760,000 B/sec.
http://sirisian.com/pictures/onlive.png

[Bags]

Oh yes, not only will I get 90 ping to PS2 from ohio, but now we should go through another service for more delay! woo this is a fucking good idea.

[Sledgecrushr]

Oh yes, not only will I get 90 ping to PS2 from ohio, but now we should go through another service for more delay! woo this is a fucking good idea.

I think your ping rate would be whatever it is to connect to onlive, not the PS2 servers.

[Sirisian]

Oh yes, not only will I get 90 ping to PS2 from ohio, but now we should go through another service for more delay! woo this is a fucking good idea.
OnLive and Gaikai actually have less than 1 ms of delay for their processing. Also Ohio goes through Chicago when transmitting data to the west normally. The problem you'd have is the latency between Ohio and Chicago for most people is over 20 ms. You can test this by using http://pingtest.net/ which does a latency (two-way delay) check. For instance, from Michigan to Chicago I get 7 ms with 1 ms Jitter which is expected. However, for someone in Ohio I'd have to imagine it's more like 28 ms using DSL and 20 ms if you have fiber to your home.

I've been playing Planetside 1 with 70 ms so I feel your pain though. Was nice with Emerald where we saw a constant 30 ms (33 ms was my average).

[KaB]

The big victims of the Cloud Gaming will be the Modders. A lot of devs working today for big companies were modders and made games they wanted to play, not games they wanted to sell. The mods helped the game industry finding good and passionate employees, not every industrials have this lucky feature.

If one day Cloud Gaming becomes really effective, I think it's going to be the only one victim. And it's a big one.

[Shade Millith]

You realize the resolution that most people play games at is only 1080p right? OnLive has this already working at 1080p on the micro-console for a while now. For PC it still defaults to 720p which requires from my test 5.3 mbps constant bandwidth. Surprisingly 720p on a 1080p screen doesn't create noticeable artifacts. They have some kind of scaling algorithm that makes it look rather crisp.

As for input lag that depends solely on what connection you have and where you live. Like I said most people near Chicago and into Michigan where I'm at have an unnoticeable input latency. (My brother is in Chicago and I had him test it). If you've tested it and lagged it's probably because you either lack the bandwidth, you're using a bad connection, or your too far from their few data centers.

Also I don't think you understand how OnLive or Gaikai would work with Planetside 2. You'd connect to the cloud service then the cloud service would be connected to the Las Vegas Planetside 2 servers. Now OnLive and Gaikai are built into the backbone of the Internet physically located at ISPs and major hubs and incur no last mile delay.

As an example my packets in Michigan go to Chicago then to Las Vegas. Since OnLive (as an example) has a server located in Chicago the only possible extra latency I'd see is from the rendering on OnLive to me (which is 4 ms one-way in my case).

Thats... uh, real fuckin' neato (http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/That_657e53_300328.jpg). But unless I'm sitting next to the bloody Onlive server, it's never going to take off for serious gamers.

When I play games, I play them to win. Good computer, with controls that respond instantly.

I, and a LOT of others, have enough problems with mouse acceleration in various games. 10-20ms lag will be noticeable.

For PC it still defaults to 720p which requires from my test 5.3 mbps constant bandwidth.

Again, that's real fuckin' neato (http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/That_657e53_300328.jpg), for places that have it. Some places don't. I get 1.8mbps from mine. And I shudder to think what 1080p needs.



And guess what else is real fuckin' neato (http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/That_657e53_300328.jpg)? Some places have bandwith limits. I get 200gb's (100 onpeak, 100 offpeak per month.

5.3mb * 60 = 318mb per minute

318mb * 60 = 19,080mb per hour or 18.6 gigs.

I played 4 hours of Planetside 1 tonight. 74.5 gigs. That's 74.5% of my onpeak download for a month in less than ONE DAY'S GAMING.

FOR 720p.

And that's not even getting into mods and community patches.

Firey. Painful. Death