PC Upgrade Assistance (UK) [Archive]

Kipper

2012-07-02, 09:28 AM

Alright, lets get the funny part out of the way by my telling you what my current PC spec is (basically).

MB: Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-US2H PCI-Express DDR2 Motherboard
Mem: Kingston HyperX 4GB (2 X 2GB) DDR2 8500C5 1066MHz Dual Channel
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 7750+ Black Edition 2.70GHz
GPU: Nvidia GeForce 9500 GT 1gb
PSU: 550w
Mon#1: 24" 1920x1080
Mon#2: 19" 1280x1024
OS: Windows 7 Professional

I'm looking to do a decent upgrade without having to rebuild the entire thing; and keeping to a sensible budget (bang for buck, not all out spending).

I know that GPU is a desperate need - thinking of going for a GTX570 or something, they are expensive enough and the 600's are just crazy money.

As for the CPU, is it a noticable step up from a 2 core to a 4 core? My board can take an AM3 chip (I think) but the current processor is a top end AM2+.

Any suggestions? (I'm UK based for pricing).

Goku

2012-07-02, 09:40 AM

AM3 Processors can be placed in the AM2+ boards, however you must make sure yours does support them. What board do you have? If you can you will be looking at a Phenom II X4 9XX most likely, unless you can X6 for cheap.

GPU? Depends on your PSU. What actual brand and model do you have?

How much are looking to spend? I would recommend getting a CPU+GPU at the same time also. Your current one will bottleneck it.

Kipper

2012-07-02, 10:15 AM

I believe I'm OK for an AM3 - here's the board spec:

http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=2995#sp

I remember buying the bundle with a clear upgrade path in mind at the time - I try to ensure that I can extend the life of a computer with one big upgrade after a few years, so that I don't have to buy a whole new PC every time.

Budget wise - I don't have a specific figure in mind, rather, I'm looking for the kit which is best performance for price, I usually find that it's the generation before the very latest stuff, but not always I guess!

Goku

2012-07-02, 10:33 AM

Still need PSU brand and model before we can go forward. Just to be safe and make sure you do not have a low quality one.

Ebuyer I was looking at either the 965 (http://www.ebuyer.com/186428-amd-phenom-ii-x4-965-black-edition-3-4ghz-socket-am3-6mb-l3-hdz965fbgmbox) or 960T (http://www.ebuyer.com/311396-amd-960t-black-edition-3-0ghz-socket-am3-8mb-l2-cache-retail-boxed-hd96ztwfgrbox)/. 960T has the possibility of unlocking to a six core CPU. If that doesn't interest you the 965 is the best bet.

GPU wise. I would be looking into either the 7850 or GTX 570. Entirely depends on pricing though. Need to get Vancha in here. Putting in UK in your title should help.

Mutant

2012-07-02, 12:10 PM

The 965 is a tad cheaper at Amazon
http://www.amazon.co.uk/AMD-HDZ965FBGMBOX-Phenom-II-965/dp/B002SRQ214/ref=sr_1_6?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1341244858&sr=1-6

There should be plenty of 2nd hand Phenom II 9xx X4 and 10xx X6 on ebay.

Kipper

2012-07-02, 12:16 PM

Pancake

2012-07-02, 01:03 PM

Sorry, misread your post - thought you were looking for the motherboard model and missed it my original. Just had the side off the PC, the PSU i've got in there is actually a 500w, not a 550. It's a Jeantech JN120F-500AP

My other computer, which exists only for running a WAMP setup (and a minecraft server, lol) has a BeQuiet 550w unit in it, so one can be swapped for the other if needs be.

I would definitely swap the PSU at a minimum. If you have some spending room I would buy a new one.

According to the following article, you will most likely need to upgrade the PSU anyways.

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=668502

Goku

2012-07-02, 02:10 PM

Kipper

2012-07-02, 02:42 PM

Not more than a couple of years. I only put the PC together in 2009 and I've replaced both PSU's since.

The Jeantech one was all I could get hold of at no-notice because I had work to do and the one I had blew, so I had to go out and buy one off-the-shelf instead of having the luxury of choosing online and waiting for delivery.

The BeQuiet one is newer, my server doesn't need the extra wattage, I just added it to try and cut down on fan noise (with limited success - but I now think the cases themselves are responsible for the noise, or at least not reducing it).

If stuff has to be swapped/replaced, then so be it - like I said, I'm not working to a specific budget, obviously I'd like to re-use as much as possible and spend sensibly - I won't go out and buy the latest, greatest kit but at the same time, I'm not going to buy something that's only good for another 6 months. I'd like to get another 3 years or so out of the PC before I start to think about a completely new system.

Doxy

2012-07-02, 06:01 PM

How much money are you actually planning to spend on your upgrades?

Kipper

2012-07-02, 09:12 PM

How much money are you actually planning to spend on your upgrades?

As much as I need to to achieve a decent (not mindblowing) spec that will give me another 3 years out of my PC.... I suppose I was planning on around £300 but less is better and more is possible if I really have to.

I'm upgrading because my current spec is out of date, not because I'm suddenly rolling in cash! PS2 is looming and I've been looking forward to it, but what I have is probably not going to run it in a decent way.

Pancake

2012-07-02, 10:11 PM

Technically you should be able to run PS2 on low-med settings with your current build. However, I assume you want med-high quality settings.

At a bare minimum you will need a CPU and GPU upgrade.

I don't know if you will be bottlenecked by your RAM, however. I think it should be enough if you do a mid range upgrade, but it will likely hurt the performance of a good CPU.

BTW, there is a good video by Linus Tech Tips on futureproofing and why it is a misconception that you will save money by upgrading an old PC. I would recommend checking it out on YouTube.

Kipper

2012-07-03, 05:57 AM

Yeah, med-high settings and running at a decent clip is all I need, everything on maximum, I can probably do without.

I know its better to buy new when you can with fast moving technology - like I said before, I tend to build a PC from new, give it one major upgrade, then go back and get everything new again the next time.

This is that 'one major upgrade' for this PC, to see it through another few years. It's actually mostly used for doing work anyway, so I can do without the downtime of having to set everything back up again on a completely new box right now.

Feel free to divert this thread into actually suggesting some good value for money components :p

Vancha

2012-07-03, 06:52 AM

CPU: Phenom II x4 965 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/AMD-HDZ965FBGMBOX-Phenom-II-965/dp/B002SRQ214/ref=sr_1_6?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1341244858&sr=1-6)
RAM: Kingston HyperX 2 x 2GB (http://www.dabs.com/products/kingston-hyperx-4gb--2-x-2gb--ddr2-1066mhz---pc2-8500-cl5-dimm-240-pin-5GZQ.html?refs=51530000-52280000&src=3)
GPU: Sapphire HD 7850 (http://www.dabs.com/products/sapphire-technology-ati-radeon-7850-860mhz-2gb-pci-express-3-0-hdmi-80T9.html?src=3)

Assuming use with the be quiet! PSU (I don't suppose you know what type? L7/L8/E9?)

That's as cheap as you'll get 2x2GB 1066 DDR2 RAM. There's some marginally better GPUs for £180, but they're Zotac/Palit cards with much louder coolers (and noise seems to be a consideration for you).

A little more for a little more. (http://www.dabs.com/products/asus-geforce-gtx-560-ti-448-cores-732mhz-1gb-pci-express-hdmi-7TC4.html?q=GTX%20560&src=16)
A little less for a little less. (http://www.dabs.com/products/asus-geforce-gtx-560-850mhz-1gb-pci-express-hdmi-directcu-ii-pre-overclocked-850mhz-core-7HRF.html?q=GTX%20560&src=16)

Considering your resolution, I wouldn't go down to the regular 560 unless you're happy bringing down your medium/high settings to "the-high-end-of-low"/medium.

Kipper

2012-07-03, 10:02 AM

Thanks for that, I'll take a proper look later ... :)

Is there a comparable Nvidia card in price/performance to what you've suggested? I just kind of prefer them as a brand, but obviously not going to gimp myself if the ATI is much better.

Noise is not as bigger issue as I may have led to believe, obviously I don't want needless racket - but the situation is basically that if I'm playing a game, I have the game noises up and don't notice it. What annoys me is excessive fan noise when I'm working during the day, when its extremely unlikely my graphics card will be working very hard since I spend most of the time in text editors! (and I can always put some music on).

My office is a small room with wood floors and plaster walls, and I have two PC's on in there, so probably isn't ever going to be whisper quiet (but on the up side, I don't have to pay extra to heat the room...)

Vancha

2012-07-03, 10:23 AM

The "a little more for a little more" link is the Nvidia equivalent, though if you're okay with regular-noise coolers this'll be even better for you.

http://www.dabs.com/products/best-value-palit-geforce-gtx-570-732mhz-1280mb-pci-express-hdmi-83BJ.html?q=570&src=16

Again, which be quiet! PSU are you using? You're seriously pushing the 550w limit with a 570 and 965. If it's one of the lower-end ones it might be risky. You certainly won't have the headroom for an overclock.

Goku

2012-07-03, 10:46 AM

I would take the 7850 over the 570 personally. More VRAM in case games in the next few years start going over 1.25 GB, lower power usage, and performance is on average the same or better. You can overclock these well over 1GHz leaving the 570 in the dust.

Vancha

2012-07-03, 11:01 AM

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/HD_7850_HD_7870/26.html

570 has a performance edge on the 7850 at stock, but yeah you could OC the 7850 with the additional PSU headroom. You do lose PhysX though, plus PS2 will probably be slightly NVidia-biased.

Goku

2012-07-03, 11:13 AM

Well needless to say Nvidia needs to stop dragging their ass and get out a new $200-$300 price point GPU. Taking way too long IMO.

Vancha

2012-07-03, 11:53 AM

Well needless to say Nvidia needs to stop dragging their ass and get out a new $200-$300 price point GPU. Taking way too long IMO.
No kidding. AMD needs to catch up big-time.

Kipper

2012-08-20, 05:37 AM

Bringing this thread back to life as things have changed a bit - the 660Ti is out for a start, and I think I might be able to stretch my budget out - perhaps to 400.

I'm still probably looking at retaining the motherboard and the drives, and I may do the RAM a little bit later.

I'm thinking:
* AMD Phenom processor that was mentioned
* 660 Ti (which version/manufacturer?)
* Beefier PSU than 500w (recommendations?)

I'd have to possibly add in a new case too; the one I have doesn't really have any side fans or anything so it might be unwise to run it - and if I was changing that, it would make sense to look at something that had larger/lower RPM fans to reduce noise a bit? Aesthetics not really a concern - best price, sufficient cooling and low background noise are my interests.

(Also, on a separate note - for the other [server] PC - recommendations on a budget case that might quieten it down a bit? - not included in the 400 budget)

Vancha

2012-08-20, 09:13 AM

The 660ti is actually way less power-hungry than the 570. Your be quiet! PSU should be more than enough for that.

Personally, I'll always recommend ASUS for the 670/660 ti, because their cooler is ridiculously quiet compared to others. You can get one for £262 at Novatech (reliable), or £252 at Ginger6 (seemingly reliable?).

That said, if you don't care about noise/overclocking, you could get a reference model around £240ish. This one (http://www.dabs.com/products/best-value-geforce-gtx-660-ti-915mhz-2gb-pci-express-3-0-hdmi-878V.html?q=%22660%20ti%22&src=16) (£242 with delivery), for example, which might come with Borderlands 2, or this one (http://www.novatech.co.uk/products/components/nvidiageforcegraphicscards/nvidiagtx660tikeplerseries/nov-660ti.html), which definitely does.

Kipper

2012-08-20, 06:50 PM

cool thanks for that. Do you think I'd need to re-case it or would it run cool enough to cope?

The current case has a single rear fan (aside from the PSU and CPU fan) thats pretty small, but it's always done the job so far. At the moment it the side is off the thing though ;-)

Vancha

2012-08-20, 07:05 PM

Oh sorry I forgot about that.

- What size is the fan in the back (80/92/120mm)?
- How much ventilation is in the front of the case?
- Does the PSU pull air from inside or outside the case?
- What CPU cooler are you using (if you don't know, does it blow air onto the CPU, or toward the back of the case)?

Kipper

2012-08-26, 08:11 AM

It's an 80mm fan. I'm assuming that the bigger the fan = the slower the RPM for the same airflow = the quieter it runs, which is probably why my PC's are noisy b*****ds.

There's no ventilation at the front, only at the rear next to the expansion slots. There are some side vents but they are pretty puny looking.

The PSU appears to be taking air from inside, it sits at the top, the intake fan is on the bottom of the unit inside the case. Unless its the other way around but that wouldn't make sense would it? :)

Not sure on CPU cooler - looks like a standard heatsink and fan that (I believe) pulls heat away from the CPU and into the case, where I assume it will be extracted by the case fan (there's no plastic funnels or anything to direct the air anywhere).

Goku

2012-08-26, 03:34 PM

Maybe time for a new case. All those components you are putting are going to dump a lot more heat in. 1 rear 80MM case fan in this day in age is just a bad idea.

Vancha

2012-08-26, 04:00 PM

I'd suggest getting a new case, then. Nothing too fancy, mind.

Your motherboard's mATX, so you could go as low as a Fractal Design Core 1000, if you want to spend as little as possible (it should certainly be "good enough").

If you're willing to go up to around £50, then there's the Core 3000 (I like Fractal) and the Antec One (not the "one hundred"). There's also the Zalman Z9 and the Sharkoon T9, both of which should be at least adequate. The best prices in all cases are Amazon's.

Kipper

2012-08-26, 08:24 PM

Without spending too much (I don't care for aesthetics - I look at the screen!) - so I think up to £50 is probably reasonable, looking for myself I was kind of expecting to have to go to around £90, so your recommendations are pleasing :)

Assuming all those you listed are going to be fine for the primary purpose of not overheating, which is likely to run the quietest? I might as well take that opportunity, all other things being equal.

Vancha

2012-08-26, 08:52 PM

I'd guess the Core 3000 and Antec One. The Core 3000, Z9 and T9 all have 3 fans each, but the Fractal should be the highest quality (and thus have the best airflow/noise ratio). The Antec One only has two fans, but I'm not sure what their quality's like.

Alternatively, you could look into buying a cheaper case (like the Core 1000) and buying some quiet fans separately.

Kipper

2012-08-27, 05:53 AM

I googled them all and they look pretty similar - it looked to me like the fractal one would be of more use over a longer time since it had a loads of fan slots and a filter, so I'll probably go with that.

I'll let you know when its all built, thanks for all the help :groovy:

Kipper

2012-08-27, 04:16 PM

Vancha

2012-08-27, 04:49 PM

Just spotted this on Amazon, do my eyes deceive me or for £20 more on the CPU, I could get a 6 core that's benchmarked around 25% better, and fits on the current motherboard?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/AMD-Phenom-Processor-Socket-Warranty/dp/B006G76LZY/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1346097974&sr=1-1-spell
It might have better benchmarks, but in real-world performance the 965 should be better for gaming, since most games don't utilize more than 4 cores.

That said, more and more games should start being released that do, so it's up to you whether you prefer a definite higher framerate in current games or a possible/probable higher framerate in future games.

Kipper

2012-08-27, 05:31 PM

That raises a couple of questions - firstly, the recommended specs for PS2 say Intel i5 or AMD X6 upwards. Does this mean that PS2 is one of the games that will use it?

Second question would be that your response seems to indicate the X6 would actually be worse with todays games than the X4. Is that the case, or is it that it would perform about the same but be under utilised by current games?

Since I would like 2 or 3 years more out of the PC post-upgrade, if the performance is the same but with some in reserve, its probably best to take it? I do other windowsy stuff that might use it anyway, Photoshop and the like.

Vancha

2012-08-27, 05:48 PM

the X6 would be worse than the X4 for games that don't utilize it. PS2 should utilize it, from what I've heard.

Other than gaming, I think only video/3D modelling and animation work would use the extra cores.

I'd guess you'll get more "time" out of the X6, but it's only a guess. It really depends on the future of game development, which is incredibly unpredictable.

Kipper

2012-08-28, 07:46 AM

Hmm, decisions decisions eh?

What is the logic behind it being worse, I'm sure you know what you're on about but I'm curious.

I would have thought that if a game was only optimised for 4 cores, the processor would just use those.

Is it because the clock speed on each core is slower than on the X4?

Vancha

2012-08-28, 08:29 AM

Precisely.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/147?vs=102

That's the 1055T against the 965 and even that loses out to the 965 in everything but video/media conversion.

Rbstr

2012-08-28, 10:58 AM

I wouldn't bet on 6 slower cores being better in the long run than 4 faster cores.

This is a diminishing returns scenario. Performance does not typically increase linearly with more cores, but it's close with more clock speed (between cores of the same type).

(We saw the same things with the first dual cores. The single cores were faster, not simply because dual-core-optimized software hadn't been released but also because the chips were simply slower do to thermal constraints.)

Kipper

2012-08-28, 05:25 PM

So really, if I can't buy a 6X that runs at the same clock speed as the 4X (which I can, but it requires an AM3+ board and a whole stack more money) then its just better to save the £20 and stick with the 4X is the general consensus.

And I suppose the PS2 specs right now are for the unoptimised version, and we can expect them to be revised down..... and if worst comes to the worst, given that I'm aiming to put it with a 660ti GPU - both of these can be overclocked a little bit if nescessary (I've never OC'd anything before but I'm assuming its all in the BIOS settings and available power/cooling).

Vancha

2012-08-28, 06:41 PM

Ah, that's something else. Apparently the 965 is a much more capable overclocker, so you should be able to push it a fair way should you need to juice some extra performance out of it.

Kipper

2012-08-30, 04:46 PM

I'll go with the X4 then. I'm not going to be upgrading the board just yet and if I was, I'd go Intel.

Kipper

2012-09-01, 12:19 PM

It is done, and that sets a new personal record for the amount spent on one graphics card with the ASUS GTX 660 Ti 2gb.

Vancha

2012-09-01, 02:14 PM

Congratulations. Here's to hoping it doesn't turn up DOA. ;)

MasterCalaelen

2012-09-01, 02:56 PM

Congratulations. Here's to hoping it doesn't turn up DOA. ;)

Aren't you Mr. Optimistic! :p

Kipper

2012-09-08, 12:53 PM

RAM and GPU haven't shipped yet, but I've got the case and the CPU, and transferred over.

Amazing difference just having a faster quad core (although I'm aware theres been a patch too). 15-30 FPS now, mostly on the low side - but even at 15, feels less 'choppy' and now actually playable - despite still being in a low res and on low settings (the 660 should sort that out).

I can fly mosquito's smoothly and run around, even see and join battles. I still die instantly to everything, but at least I can start to be a participant and not a tourist.

Incidentally, I ran windows experience index. Obviously the CPU score went up (from 6.2 to 7.4) but another score changed as well. Memory went from 7.1 to 7.4. I assume this is down to better BIOS ROM (I had to flash the BIOS to get it to recognise the CPU)....? If this is the case, then there's a cheap way of getting some more out of your memory :)

Also, I predict another Fractal Core 3000 in my future. Its super quiet compared to previously & my other machine, those big fans really doing the trick even with them all running at maximum RPM on the fan controller.

Goku

2012-09-08, 01:18 PM

Glad to see you are noticing a boost. I even noticed a boost with the recent patch. The devs are coming quite a way from when the tech test originally started. That was brutal.

Kipper

2012-09-08, 08:32 PM

Yeah, though obviously not possible to say if its down to the CPU or the patch, I'll have to say both. Still 15 FPS at times, but its much less noticable.

Couldn't even use a vehicle before and now, no problem. I've been to heavily populated areas too and fighting and again, no issues whatsoever with framerate.

Just got to fix the random disconnects from the EU servers, and the fact that I stink at PS2 :)

Also looking forward to being able to crank up the settings, I want the particles and light shows that youtube has spoiled me with :)

Kipper

2012-09-12, 04:55 PM

Just whacked in the extra 4gb and the 660Ti.

On the settings I was running before, everything started running as smooth as you like with 40-70fps :)

I've now upped my resolution to 1920x1080 and medium graphics (with a couple of things turned down to low) and its smooth out in the open but slows down a bit in the warpgate or busy areas.... But the game looks immeasurably better.

I celebrated the change by getting my first A2A kill (and was quickly brought back down to earth by a tree) and then taking out two prowlers with my HA and damaging several more, devastating a column :)

I just need to hold on more more optimizations and work out what settings will give me the ideal performance / fps ratio. I'm not one of these folk looking for 60-70, I just want a fairly stable 30 and a sexy looking game....