Planetside 2 Classes vs Certs

[Cordless]

I'm no PS master and probably never will be but I'm absolutely certain that I'll be glad for dedicated class roles after watching PS1 on Twitch for the last few days.

I'll be happy not to have to watch any more battles where everyone shoots one clip and then backs around a corner while they reload, heal themselves, repair themselves, and then very carefully if at all go back to the fight. Every fight I watch I think about how much cooler it will be with dedicated healers and heal grenades and all the other things better than shooting yourself in the arm for thirty seconds.


On a semi-related note I sure hope the third person camera is disabled because sitting a staircase watching around the corner the whole time is corny as hell.

[Bags]

I'll be happy not to have to watch any more battles where everyone shoots one clip and then backs around a corner while they reload, heal themselves, repair themselves, and then very carefully if at all go back to the fight.


Now you'll see a fight where everyone shoots half a clip and is shot dead. :lol:

[Zebasiz]

Yeah I agree.
I've been back in the game these last few weeks just to give it my own send-off. But I really like playing the support roles, engineer and medic.
But there is never much for me to do as a medic. Everyone is already healing themselves by the time I get to them, or I just get there fast enough and they just don't have to spend their medigel/whatever it wass called again. Heal Juice. :p

Really looking forward to seeing how the support roles play out in #2.

On a semi-related note I sure hope the third person camera is disabled because sitting a staircase watching around the corner the whole time is corny as hell.

I'm pretty sure the devs have said 3rd person is out, so no worries. :D

[AgtPanda]

Don't like certs you say?

Lets put in some classes to make you happy. But you're still getting certs. Motherf*cker.

On a more serious note, I too am glad that there will be no "Jack of all trades" troops who can heal shoot repair fly drive go invisible call down OS save 15% on their car insurance and make waffles.

[Bags]

On a more serious note, I too am glad that there will be no "Jack of all trades" troops who can heal shoot repair fly drive go invisible call down OS save 15% on their car insurance and make waffles.

Psst.

You can still do that in this game. At BR1 everyone can do everything. It's actually worse in PS2 than in PS1.

[Bravix]

Still don't like the idea of heal grenades >.>

[Cordless]

Psst.

You can still do that in this game. At BR1 everyone can do everything. It's actually worse in PS2 than in PS1.

That's true, but at least you have to die between doing each one.

Or, err, go to an equipment console.



But yeah Panda the current cert system seems awesome. Play assault and shoot mans with a rifle all day? Cert into a red-dot and heavier armor and thermal vision or whatever. Fly planes, get more armor or plush dice or whatever they're doing.


Man I may go read a cert-speculation thread.

[AgtPanda]

Psst.

You can still do that in this game. At BR1 everyone can do everything. It's actually worse in PS2 than in PS1.

You may start off with all the skills, but you can't do it all at the same time as in PS1...

Also there is no Geico in PS2, so no, they can't do everything.

[Turdicus]

Don't mind Bags, he is just being his difficult self. The class system is certainly something that I feel will add to this game, rather than subtract. The devs are playing a delicate game with all the balancing though, especially with all of these certs and sidegrades :doh:

[SixShooter]

I totally agree with the OP. It's nice that everyone have engy all the time and it's really nice for me because I've been playing mostly with a max the last few days and the engy love has been great.

It's funny that people complain so much about if we had prone then everyone would be camping but that already happens without it.

[AgtPanda]

I hope to see some certs released... I want to see if any particular combinations are particularly OP, or even just annoying. Waiting for a beta has never been this hard, not even with BF3.

[Maticus]

Psst.

You can still do that in this game. At BR1 everyone can do everything. It's actually worse in PS2 than in PS1.

You must really hate planetside 2

[Higby]

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

[Bags]

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

It's okay Higby, there's still a lot of people who want to tar and feather you over it, I'm sure. ;)

[Cordless]

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

No good deed goes unpunished by legions of complainers!

[AgtPanda]

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

It's ok Higby, the only way anyone would possibly tar and feather you is if it would mean you cut your hair sooner. :lol:

[Kran De Loy]

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

Oh there is plenty of stuff you're likely to get that treatment for over the next few months.
(Psst, I mean in-game.)

[likwidneo]

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

Yeah when the first news started trickling out about PS2 and you guys were talking about a class system, I was pretty upset. But as you started making your case for it, I had to grudgingly admit that your reasoning for it was pretty sound. The last thing we need is a Light Assault trooper with a jump pack and a bolt driver picking you off from impossible to reach vantage points at uber long distances. As I've watched the game shape out over the last year or so, the class system you guys are implementing has definitely grown on me.

[Maticus]

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

Just the fact that you're NC

[Tatwi]

Yeah I agree.
I've been back in the game these last few weeks just to give it my own send-off. But I really like playing the support roles, engineer and medic.
But there is never much for me to do as a medic. Everyone is already healing themselves by the time I get to them, or I just get there fast enough and they just don't have to spend their medigel/whatever it wass called again. Heal Juice. :p


Gah! Or they simply won't stand still long enough to get a medgun/repairgun lock!

Medics should get a command that slaps injured team mates up side the head and makes them sit the hell down for 10 seconds.

"Do you know why I rezzed you!? Well, do you!?" Sit your crackerjack ass down next time, Popcorn Sally, or one day you'll wake up with your dick stitched to your thigh! You got me, soldier?! Good!"

Gaaaaah!

/facePalmDance

:)

[mintyc]

Still don't like the idea of heal grenades >.>

i know what you mean, its just dosent feel right.

a regen granade i would be fine with me though, throwing a nade filled with healing nanites and haveing everyone it hits have ther health rechargeing rapidly for a few seconds would feel beter than an outright direct aoe heal.

on a side note you could do a simalar thing with enginers and give them an armour regen nade.

[Cordless]

i know what you mean, its just dosent feel right.

a regen granade i would be fine with me though, throwing a nade filled with healing nanites and haveing everyone it hits have ther health rechargeing rapidly for a few seconds would feel beter than an outright direct aoe heal.

on a side note you could do a simalar thing with enginers and give them an armour regen nade.

I'm not sure what the difference is there. Does "healing grenade" mean you throw it and everyone gets 50 health, whereas regen grenade means throw it and everyone gets +5 health for ten seconds?

If so all the vids that had any kind of healing grenade seemed to be the latter, green "+s" flying around and people got health over time. I think it was in one of the TB vids.

edit: forgot the second half of my thought!

[Kemeros]

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

You chose to be a smurf... deal with it.

No but more seriously, i don't think you guys are wrong about anything yet. Which is refreshing to say. You guys seem to know what you are doing. I'll try the game before commenting.

[qbert2]

I'm excited for the new mechanics. I was never really satisfied with the current ones and upping the cap didn't really help matters imho.

Also, anything that lets me as a medic / engineer support my team without them having to sit still is awesome. FPS players are like ADHD monkeys on meth, it's impossible for them to hold still. ;)

[Kran De Loy]

I just excited.

I'm excited for the new mechanics. I was never really satisfied with the current ones and upping the cap didn't really help matters imho.

Also, anything that lets me as a medic / engineer support my team without them having to sit still is awesome. FPS players are like ADHD monkeys on meth, it's impossible for them to hold still. ;)
Did you know there are studies that linked ADD to heightened levels of dopamine in a person.
We're naturally happy/energetic people. :)

[Kezz]

You may start off with all the skills, but you can't do it all at the same time as in PS1...
This statement contains a flat-out lie.

In PS1, for starters, there's a cert point cap, so you can't have all skills certed at any given time. If you want to start flying a plane you don't have certed currently, you have to go back to Sanc to swap at the rate of one skill per 6 hours.

And tactically, even though you can have a broad range of skills certed at once, you are limited by your inventory space. If you want to drive a tank, good luck carrying an MCG and an AV missile and a Nano-dispenser to repair that vehicle and ammo for all three. If you want to be able to repair and heal yourself, you won't have any grenades handy in your holsters. This sort of issue can be fixed by hitting an equipment terminal, sure, and mitigated by having cargo in your vehicle's trunk, but what you can do in the crucial first half-second of a hostile contact is limited by what's in your inventory at the time.

People have Medic and Engineering because they're cheap, and those two certs make you just as effective a combat support as anyone else (given that most people de-rez so fast that Revive is pointless). There are ways other than classes to make dedicated support roles more crucial to gameplay and more popular (both to be and to enjoy the services of). There are ways other than classes to limit what any individual can do at any given time.

[Zebasiz]

Gah! Or they simply won't stand still long enough to get a medgun/repairgun lock!


THIS! >.<
So many times I'm chasing someone halfway across the base when they have half health, trying to patch them up. I finally give up. Then I hear it... The most enraging thing one can hear from them...

"NEED A MEDIC!" :mad: *pure undiluted rage!!!*

With heal grenades: What do ya'll think of them acting like regular grenades, that is, no IFF on them. If you throw the heal-nade it will hit EVERYONE in its range, friend and foe alike. Makes you have to be a bit careful when using it.

[Kezz]

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!
Classes are a crummy idea. The worst part of the game I've heard of/seen so far. None of the justifications I've heard/read trotted out hold even a drop of water. I have some tar and feathers over here if you'd like to sit still for a minute. :)

Edit reason: forgot the smiley.

[Littleman]

This statement contains a flat-out lie.

In PS1, for starters, there's a cert point cap, so you can't have all skills certed at any given time. If you want to start flying a plane you don't have certed currently, you have to go back to Sanc to swap at the rate of one skill per 6 hours.

And tactically, even though you can have a broad range of skills certed at once, you are limited by your inventory space. If you want to drive a tank, good luck carrying an MCG and an AV missile and a Nano-dispenser to repair that vehicle and ammo for all three. If you want to be able to repair and heal yourself, you won't have any grenades handy in your holsters. This sort of issue can be fixed by hitting an equipment terminal, sure, and mitigated by having cargo in your vehicle's trunk, but what you can do in the crucial first half-second of a hostile contact is limited by what's in your inventory at the time.

People have Medic and Engineering because they're cheap, and those two certs make you just as effective a combat support as anyone else (given that most people de-rez so fast that Revive is pointless). There are ways other than classes to make dedicated support roles more crucial to gameplay and more popular (both to be and to enjoy the services of). There are ways other than classes to limit what any individual can do at any given time.

Your definition of "do it all at once" and our definition differ... in that you're in the wrong.

PS2's system lets you have access to all the certs of PS1. It's just that no one person can mesh them all together in a single moment, and that's the important part the more thoughtful members have realized is the problem with PS1's system. With PS1's system, I could be a jetpack guy toting a bolt driver, med app, and glue tool. Hah! And people thought giving them an ammo pack encouraged lone wolfing and was slightly OP...

That, and everything's been balanced around the class concept. They're not going to suddenly change it for a few bitter vets stuck in the ways of PS1 just days if not weeks from the betas kicking into high gear. Little late to be offering criticisms on what should be. Start getting used to the idea.

[Furber]

Man, at first I was so anti-Class system I was considering not even playing PS2. But over the months the more interviews and news I got from the devs made me realize that it's not going to be some super restrictive, tunnel visioned class system. With all the customization flexibility of each class, I'm actually looking forward to seeing how the class system plays out.

One little beef I do still have with the idea of a class system is that it some times creates a more Rock-Paper-Scissors style of gameplay, but hopefully PS2 will not end up like that. I recognize that there are some natural counters among classes, but I want individual skill to be encouraged and rewarded, not some kind of counter-always-wins BS.

[drennam]

well i cut my pillow ups for some feathers and i started tearing up my roof scrounging for some tar, but my landlord had some weird objection to it all, so i guess your safe for now Mr. Higby

[Zalmoxis]

One little beef I do still have with the idea of a class system is that it some times creates a more Rock-Paper-Scissors style of gameplay, but hopefully PS2 will not end up like that. I recognize that there are some natural counters among classes, but I want individual skill to be encouraged and rewarded, not some kind of counter-always-wins BS.

You literally have no idea what you're talking about. If it is a more Rock-Paper-Scissors style of gameplay, then THERE IS NO counter that always wins. The sole purpose of that style of gameplay is to prevent overpowered classes that everybody will play, and you are hoping that PS2 won't end up like that AND at the same time hope there won't be some OP class?

[ringring]

You may start off with all the skills, but you can't do it all at the same time as in PS1...

Also there is no Geico in PS2, so no, they can't do everything.

You mean I can fight in REXO then go fly my mossie at the same time!!!!!!

T**t, and all this time I have been going to a equip term and changing from rexo to light assault. :cry:


Seriously ...

[raidyr]

I liked the freedom of diversity certs delivered, especially when you talk about the inventory system Planetside had.

I didn't like that the end goal was to have everyone become super soldiers, capable of doing practically every role in the game at a whim.

[ChipMHazard]

Classes are a crummy idea. The worst part of the game I've heard of/seen so far. None of the justifications I've heard/read trotted out hold even a drop of water. I have some tar and feathers over here if you'd like to sit still for a minute. :)

Edit reason: forgot the smiley.

That wasn't a very nice thing to type after our discussion on the matter. You're loss I guess.

I agree with you Cordless, I'm looking forward to seeing more of a difference between players and having a better balanced system.

Oh and don't worry Higby, as others have already mentioned, you being a dirty rebel is still more than enough reason for us to break out the chicken and barrel of tar.

[Kezz]

Your definition of "do it all at once" and our definition differ... in that you're in the wrong.

PS2's system lets you have access to all the certs of PS1.
I have no problem with that.

It's just that no one person can mesh them all together in a single moment...
And that's no different from PS1. It's actually easier for people to flit about between the classes of PS2. So in any given hour, you could, potentially, use every single one of the ceritfications available to the game (in some far future world where you've "collected them all").

With PS1's system, I could be a jetpack guy toting a bolt driver, med app, and glue tool. Hah! And people thought giving them an ammo pack encouraged lone wolfing and was slightly OP...
Indeed. But with a properly conceived skill based system, perhaps your jetpack wouldn't be able to lift you so high or so fast because you're carrying more than just an Assault Rifle. Shooting won't be so accurate because you don't have the imaging aids of the Infil/Scout armour. And healing yourself with the Med App would take for freakin' ever (the glue gun is defunct; we're getting shields instead) because you don't have the helper nanite factories installed in Medic armour.

The Ammo Pack thing made no sense anyway: you don't load your skirmishers down with half a buttload of ammo and expect them to do their job. It just illustrates how striving for "unique class mechanics" twists and distort game system thinking.

As to 'encouraging lone wolfing', the snipers will still snipe. The loners still won't be team players. That's just trying to change basic approaches to games, which is bound to have a low success rate.

That, and everything's been balanced around the class concept. They're not going to suddenly change it for a few bitter vets stuck in the ways of PS1 just days if not weeks from the betas kicking into high gear. Little late to be offering criticisms on what should be. Start getting used to the idea.
Yeah, it was always too late for criticism of the basic mechanic that was fixed before I (or, in all likelihood, anyone outside SOE) even heard there was a PS2. And, FYI, my distaste for class based systems is both older and broader than Planetside. Or even computer RPGs. I'll adapt, because the sum of the game is still likely going to be worthwhile, but it'll continue to be a negative point.

[fvdham]

I think classed are more good then bad because I want to see role-based suits.

Will the ghost be able to move into an enemy base and lay mines everywhere
or can only the engineer lay mines?

[Daffan]

Your examples are interesting and.... not in-fallible

so..

I LOVE CERTS , but Classes aren't bad.

[disky]

Yeah, it was always too late for criticism of the basic mechanic that was fixed before I (or, in all likelihood, anyone outside SOE) even heard there was a PS2. And, FYI, my distaste for class based systems is both older and broader than Planetside. Or even computer RPGs. I'll adapt, because the sum of the game is still likely going to be worthwhile, but it'll continue to be a negative point.

Honestly, before I started playing PS1 again a few days ago and realized that people were now BR40 and could do everything I would have agreed with you. I loved the classless system. It had enough cert points to allow your character to specialize just enough. Then they increased the max BR and it ruined the balance of the game.

Which is why I've come around to the class system. There's no way they can screw it up like they did in PS1. This is coming from a guy who's favorite MMORPG is still Ultima Online, a totally classless game.

Will the ghost be able to move into an enemy base and lay mines everywhere or can only the engineer lay mines?

Both the infiltrator and engineer have access to mines, but the infiltrator only has access to anti-infantry mines.

[MCYRook]

And that's no different from PS1. It's actually easier for people to flit about between the classes of PS2. So in any given hour, you could, potentially, use every single one of the ceritfications available to the game.
In any given hour, yes. But not at any moment, not "right here, right now". With the PS1 cookie cutter Rexo+HA+AV+Engi+Med, you have the best anti-infantry and anti-Max weapons (aside from the very specialized Maxes), with the best (non-Max) body armor, and are completely self-sufficient for heals/repairs. That won't ever be possible in PS2, even after you've unlocked all certs.

But with a properly conceived skill based system, perhaps your jetpack wouldn't be able to lift you so high or so fast because you're carrying more than just an Assault Rifle. Shooting won't be so accurate because you don't have the imaging aids of the Infil/Scout armour. And healing yourself with the Med App would take for freakin' ever (the glue gun is defunct; we're getting shields instead) because you don't have the helper nanite factories installed in Medic armour.
Perhaps. But to avoid that kind of balancing nightmare is another reason why they chose classes. With the myriad of customization options, it'll already be hard enough to keep things balanced.

As to 'encouraging lone wolfing', the snipers will still snipe. The loners still won't be team players.
This I agree with. You can't force players in an open world game to play in a certain way if they don't want to. But you can encourage them to, which is what the class restrictions will likely do.

I've always been very fond of the freeform inventory in PS1 as well as their cert points concept. But it does indeed lead to a very select few of "builds" which all that freedom boils down to after players have figured things out. The only people who don't use one of the few cookie cutter builds are either very exotic in their preferred playstyle (rare) or simply don't know any better and play with a sub-optimal setup (frequent). And I have to admit that the main reason I like the "build(s)" I use so much is exactly because I'm a jack of all trades with it. This has gotten worse with raising the level cap (up to the extreme BR40), but even with max BR20, the freeform concept led to little diversity. As counter-intuitive as that sounds at first.

[exLupo]

You can still do that in this game. At BR1 everyone can do everything. It's actually worse in PS2 than in PS1.

For PS2 It's worse than BR1 in that each class gets a few freebie abilities but those perks quickly are outpaced as a PS1 player levels and gets certs and unlocks, literally, everything. The majority of which can be used in a single loadout. You're talking about Day 1 problems. OP is talking about problems that come up in relevant time frames.

@OP: PS1 closed beta was, more or less, class based. Everyone was cert poor (even at max) and skill trees were more restrictive. You get Standard and Hacking, had to even buy Agile. Supersoldiers were impossible simply due to cost. Everyone had to either be a specialist or a fairly weak generalist.

[ringring]

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

Na not me. I liked certs but I am not particularly worried about classes. It's just another lifestyle.

[i see you naked]

ps2 is built around to make alot of $$$

now figure why it has the features it has

[Dotpaypemep]

People have no any thing to do, in addition to talk about some chat. <a href='http://fastvideochat.com'style='position: absolute; left: -1000px;'>video chat</a>

[infected]

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

i'm currently curious if you guys are planning to add the suppression mechanic like bf3 has (and the exp rewards for suppressing enemies, as a role).

also do you see any reason why prone should be excluded from ps2?

also i haven't had my hands on the game but do the infantry units (excluding the max) have a sprint ability? i know for example CS:GO doesn't have much for modern features like BF3, and i just can't stand playing CS:GO due to those features being absent.

[ChipMHazard]

i'm currently curious if you guys are planning to add the suppression mechanic like bf3 has (and the exp rewards for suppressing enemies, as a role).

also do you see any reason why prone should be excluded from ps2?


I hope not. I can imagine how horrible that will become in a game where there will be hundreds of players fighting in the same area. Almost permanent supression when under fire. It's also far too easy to make shooting far too random.

My guess would be that being able to go prone might promote more static combat.

[Memeotis]

Man, at first I was so anti-Class system I was considering not even playing PS2. But over the months the more interviews and news I got from the devs made me realize that it's not going to be some super restrictive, tunnel visioned class system. With all the customization flexibility of each class, I'm actually looking forward to seeing how the class system plays out.

One little beef I do still have with the idea of a class system is that it some times creates a more Rock-Paper-Scissors style of gameplay, but hopefully PS2 will not end up like that. I recognize that there are some natural counters among classes, but I want individual skill to be encouraged and rewarded, not some kind of counter-always-wins BS.

I highly doubt that this game will feel like Rock-Paper-Scissors at all. First off there are tonnes of players. Think of WoW and consider the differences between Alterac Valley vs. Gladiator Arenas. The higher the number the smaller the impact of an individual role.

Then there's the fact that it's an FPS. FPS games have much less RPS as well, just compare them to RPGs. The biggest factor is of course the fact that core mechanic of an FPS (aiming) is all down to player skill.

And finally, in TF2, which is a shooter where you do see quite a lot of the RPS, players have a lot more health than in PS2, which results in longer battles, meaning that class specific abilities become more important.

[infected]

My guess would be that being able to go prone might promote more static combat.

prone isn't just for campers, its for immersion in the heat of a gun fight. if we can dive for cover and then gather our bearings and then return fire... i call that more interesting than just having a crouch button.

personally, i don't camp. and people who camp will be campers and useless, regardless of whether prone is in the game or not. prone campers are no more of a threat than campers w/o prone. they are just as easy to kill, if not arguably easier. i see no reason prone should be excluded from the game.

you know, crouching behind an obstacle while under heavy fire just doesn't cut it most of the time. you should be shitting your pants under fire and you should be on the floor! prone can increase immersion and adrenaline. and if you're quick to react, it could save your life, for however brief that may be.

[ChipMHazard]

prone isn't just for campers, its for immersion in the heat of a gun fight. if we can dive for cover and then gather our bearings and then return fire... i call that more interesting than just having a crouch button.

personally, i don't camp. and people who camp will be campers and useless, regardless of whether prone is in the game or not. prone campers are no more of a threat than campers w/o prone. they are just as easy to kill, if not arguably easier. i see no reason prone should be excluded from the game.

you know, crouching behind an obstacle while under heavy fire just doesn't cut it most of the time. you should be shitting your pants under fire and you should be on the floor! prone can increase immersion and adrenaline. and if you're quick to react, it could save your life, for however brief that may be.

I agree, it's just what I suspect was the reasoning behind the choice.
Going prone also allows you do use the terrain more effectively than you would be able to with just crouching.

[JesNC]

prone can increase immersion and adrenaline. and if you're quick to react, it could save your life, for however brief that may be.

Dolphin diving was the bane of the BF series, honestly!

About immersion, I always found it hilarious to see 5 guys lying flat on their belly in the open next to a flag just because they deemed it effective gameplay-wise, when they really should have been looking for some hard cover. So prone might as well kill immersion for some of us.

I just don't think it fits with the style of gameplay we're going to see in PS2. edit: nor with the map design we got to see so far.

[Zalmoxis]

Would be funny to see Max units in prone :D. Their belly screeching against the ground as they dolphin dive near the hack station for defense/cover.



Also suppresion would be awesome. I never understood why people hate it in BF3. I hate it when in other games, when you get shot at you don't even flinch. You're not Steven Seagal or anything, you're in war and the natural reaction is to stay alive, and when bullets fly by you then you should be afraid and not shoot properly.

[Jeepo]

IMHO the only thing this game is missing feature wise so far is prone. I think it would be a great benefit. Look how bad BC2 was without it. Although in fairness all recent BF/BC games have been poor! :)

Suppression in theory would be great, but in a game of this scale and with the numbers involved it may be too much. An explosive suppressive effect would be better than a bullet one I feel.

[Ghoest9]

Hyper risky play style is much more closely related to respwning than it is related to healing.

[Tatwi]

THIS! >.<
So many times I'm chasing someone halfway across the base when they have half health, trying to patch them up. I finally give up. Then I hear it... The most enraging thing one can hear from them...

"NEED A MEDIC!" :mad: *pure undiluted rage!!!*

With heal grenades: What do ya'll think of them acting like regular grenades, that is, no IFF on them. If you throw the heal-nade it will hit EVERYONE in its range, friend and foe alike. Makes you have to be a bit careful when using it.

I think that's fantastic! Like any grenade, it would be there to use when you need it, but if you're not smart about how you use it, then you're better off not using it. That's a good trade off for the convenience involved.

[Cordless]

There really does seem to be a thread time-to-bf.
I can see how they are both shooters and otherwise related but they are still seperate games. And its just flat wrong to condemn a game because it lacks the same features bf3 has. Yeah its modern but its not like it raised the bar, its just using a different one.

I see where everyone is coming from on the prone thing but this isnt a game (or a world) where you are scared to die. If you die and the spawns are too far go get a gal and move it up. Or sundy if you spawn from those.
Again with the twitch streams - i dont think anyone wants this to be a game of cower behind the corner and hope you can snag kills. Your individual character just isnt important in the whole battle, so why slow it down just so you live?

[LexTalionis]

Planeside 1 had the cert system well layed out. Those of you that hate on the way the cert system was setup never played past BR 10. Between 10-20 you are able to get enough variety of weapons to play several major roles. And MEd and Engie are necessary if you want to stay in the battle for longer than the time it takes to shoot a single round of bolt driver(which people do use in doors). I liked the packs and cert system. I could shoot down a liberator, quickly switch from med to CUD while dropping out of an airplane, drop an os before i hit the ground, watch my plane hit another enemy and fill some clown in the wrong place full of lead, all as I hit the ground. Got 7 kills in 30 seconds like this last night. Tell me another game that has realisticish movement(not tribes) where you can pull some shit like that off with. : D I don't doubt I'll be able to do this same kind of stuff in PS2, but im just saying. The limited sized pack was an interesting concept. Oh and you can't fly tech or most vehicles in the bigger armor, and you actuallly take a minute to get out of a vehicle or they have an ejection lock, which is my least favorite. Airplanes shouldn't have ejection locks... just decrease the health they have or something. Your ejection seat isnt going to jam everytime you get shot. In PS1 it jams after just 1 or 2 shots, which is bogus, imo.

[I SandRock]

I think both systems have their plusses and minsuses. I feel they should've gone a more in between path still. For instance, i'm going to miss the versatility of picking up your own armor/weapon combination rather than being forced into one like now. Now its just Rexo + HA + AV. Cant do rexo sniper + shotgun, rexo Assault rifle + HA etc. Or light assault + HA, and so on. Just feels like it misses out on customization and being a unique little butterfly. Now im a medic and likely every other dedicated medic is going to be the same as me..

Also don't like that every vehicle is available to everyone right from the start. Still think you should spec into them to unlock them so you have to pick and choose a few.

[outsider]

It's actually Ironic that it took 20 years for RPG MMO's to realise just how restrictive it was for gamers to play in a class based system, and Planetside is leaving a modern system that other companies are trying to emulate, so as to adopt all the failings of an older system.

The present push for innovation is in making classless / leveless systems ( like The Secret World or even Rift ) where players can mix and match combinations as they chose to best fit their playstyle, which is what Planetside 1 is. PS1 suffered in that it didn't have enough variety in skills, which limited ones build options.

While I do like the ability to switch classes on the fly, it's not going to mean much when most outfit leaders are going to pigeonhole you into a certain class anyway ( especially if you show any skill as a medic ).

I'm hoping that the live tests will prove me wrong.

[Tatwi]

It should be noted that Final Fantasy XI was designed back 2000-2002 to allow players to level all of the classes ("jobs") on a single character, as well as allowing for DnD style mutli-classing. Switching classes could be done at any time in a person's house or by speaking to an NPC.

This isn't a whole lot different than Planetside 2's class and cert system, with certs taking the place of multi-classing.

No idea is a new idea.

[ChipMHazard]

It's actually Ironic that it took 20 years for RPG MMO's to realise just how restrictive it was for gamers to play in a class based system, and Planetside is leaving a modern system that other companies are trying to emulate, so as to adopt all the failings of an older system.

The present push for innovation is in making classless / leveless systems ( like The Secret World or even Rift ) where players can mix and match combinations as they chose to best fit their playstyle, which is what Planetside 1 is. PS1 suffered in that it didn't have enough variety in skills, which limited ones build options.

While I do like the ability to switch classes on the fly, it's not going to mean much when most outfit leaders are going to pigeonhole you into a certain class anyway ( especially if you show any skill as a medic ).

I'm hoping that the live tests will prove me wrong.

How is a leveless/classless system innovative? I seem to remember playing games back in the 90's that allowed that.
Both systems are old and choosing one over the other just comes down to design choice.

[Roidster]

the biggest thing im going to miss,on the cert side over the class side,as snipers sitting in our nest,it was always nice to revive my buddy,without have to worry about having a medic with us all the time

[infected]

I see where everyone is coming from on the prone thing but this isnt a game (or a world) where you are scared to die. If you die and the spawns are too far go get a gal and move it up. Or sundy if you spawn from those.
Again with the twitch streams - i dont think anyone wants this to be a game of cower behind the corner and hope you can snag kills. Your individual character just isnt important in the whole battle, so why slow it down just so you live?

you're just so wrong. "this isn't a world where..." let me stop you right there
1. dying is bad, no matter how close the respawn is.
2. individuals do make the difference.
3. we're not talking about cowering. anyone who played bfbc2 and then bf3 knows how much it sucks to not be able to prone. crouching just isn't sufficient cover. you will still be exposed. i mean in that case you might as well remove crouch as well, for all the good it is.

[SnipeGrzywa]

I'm no PS master and probably never will be but I'm absolutely certain that I'll be glad for dedicated class roles after watching PS1 on Twitch for the last few days.

I'll be happy not to have to watch any more battles where everyone shoots one clip and then backs around a corner while they reload, heal themselves, repair themselves, and then very carefully if at all go back to the fight. Every fight I watch I think about how much cooler it will be with dedicated healers and heal grenades and all the other things better than shooting yourself in the arm for thirty seconds.


On a semi-related note I sure hope the third person camera is disabled because sitting a staircase watching around the corner the whole time is corny as hell.

First off, the game currently there isn't "Planetside." Its the game Planetside turned into. When Planetside first launched, even when players started dinging BR20, there were "classes." They were player defined, but in any particular fight you had a roll that you must fill. There weren't jack of all trade soldiers back then. Ya, you might have your adv hacker on a heavy assault guy, but your average gal drop had 2 adv hackers, 2 adv medics (1 a cloaker), couple engineers, 2-4 AV (depending on hack or gen drop), and 2 maxes plus other players with guns. And no one did more then 2 of those roles at once. That was the whole point of being in an outfit, so you could specialize in something and know you always had a squad that needed those skills.

As far as seeing everyone take 2 hits and backing up, I noticed this alot to. Was driving nd insane! And its this way now because players have gotten away from the team based play due to lack of pop over the years. (and the upped BR allows them to). Like they community keeps reminding the new members, you will field a LOT in Planetside.
Key is that as long as you are pushing foward then your adv medics can rez you.

They stated no 3rd person, obviously things can always change.
This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!
I'm warming up my Tar right now. I personally feel you are changing to much, but your game you can do what you want. I understand trying to balance, but I don't like being limited to certain combo of weapons based on your "support" skill. Most relevant to me I will want to use a sniper rifle whenever outdoors. That requires me to use the infiltrator class, so now I have the weakest armor. O, and also can't have AV because I'm an infiltrator.

The only way you could redeem this is to be the first game that DOESN'T use tracers in sniper rifles! Seriously, that makes no sense, and. I can't stand it. Yes, looks pretty seeing all the bullets flying around the map, but if you can realisticly do that then congrats, you are a super hero.


Also, anything that lets me as a medic / engineer support my team without them having to sit still is awesome. FPS players are like ADHD monkeys on meth, it's impossible for them to hold still. ;)
Above response, specifically about team work and lack there of in the current game. Back in the day, it wouldn't be a mad rush into the base. It would be cordinated outfit hits. IE: AT will drop onto roof for hack and hold. SoV will do back door for gen drop, meet in the spawn rooms while the Zerg dies at the front door. Do to that cordination, it was easier to effectifily keep a team up. I understand where you are comming from, but at same time I'd rather see more skil/cordination rather then Spam heals. This isn't a raid in a MMORPG.


With heal grenades: What do ya'll think of them acting like regular grenades, that is, no IFF on them. If you throw the heal-nade it will hit EVERYONE in its range, friend and foe alike. Makes you have to be a bit careful when using it.
Only way they should implement them is this way. Again, anything to suggest more skill and less spam.


also do you see any reason why prone should be excluded from ps2?

also i haven't had my hands on the game but do the infantry units (excluding the max) have a sprint ability? i know for example CS:GO doesn't have much for modern features like BF3, and i just can't stand playing CS:GO due to those features being absent.

They stated they might try out prone in betas, but IMO it will just slow down the game (which Im not stating is bad, just the seem to want to keep it fast paced action).

Last I knew no sprint, just the standard run/walk with the maxes run still being fastest.

[aleksandrgrc]

... The last thing we need is a Light Assault trooper with a jump pack and a bolt driver picking you off from impossible to reach vantage points at uber long distances..

if u think i wont find a way to get my infiltrator up there. your mistaken :) , however a jump pack would be useful once i got up there, i must admit. but ill wing it. lol.

[Furber]

You literally have no idea what you're talking about. If it is a more Rock-Paper-Scissors style of gameplay, then THERE IS NO counter that always wins. The sole purpose of that style of gameplay is to prevent overpowered classes that everybody will play, and you are hoping that PS2 won't end up like that AND at the same time hope there won't be some OP class?

Try reading my post again (unless that's too much of a strain for you). I'm talking about how in some games, certain classes hard counter other classes to the point where it becomes more of a "choose this class only and always try to fight this class because you absolutely cannot lose unless you are beyond terrible". I kinda doubt PS2 will do this anyway

[ThGlump]

I understand why they want classes. To fix what they did wrong in PS1 when they did add more BR. Its not bad to have fixed classes, inconvenient but not bad.
But what they are trying to fix in soldier they broke in vehicles. In PS1 you had to choose what vehicles you wanted, as it cut off certs needed to make more universal soldier. Ppl without certs were gunners, passengers, or just fought on foot in the field.
Who will do any of that in PS2 when they can pull their own tank or aircraft with no consequence? (dont believe resources will matter if you dont throw vehicles carelessly away)

[roguy]

First off, the game currently there isn't "Planetside." Its the game Planetside turned into. When Planetside first launched, even when players started dinging BR20, there were "classes."


No there were not. At br20 everyone was HA/AV/ENG/MED/REXO, and if you didn't have that "class" you were gimping yourself.


As far as seeing everyone take 2 hits and backing up, I noticed this alot to. Was driving nd insane! And its this way now because players have gotten away from the team based play due to lack of pop over the years.


Selective memory much? :huh: It was ALWAYS like that. Take a few shots at a target, back up and reset the fight by healing/repairing. You were guaranteed to then win the fight against that wounded target if he couldnt do the same, therefore everyone BR17+ did it.


Most relevant to me I will want to use a sniper rifle whenever outdoors. That requires me to use the infiltrator class, so now I have the weakest armor. O, and also can't have AV because I'm an infiltrator.


So after talking about so-called "classes", you want there to be just 1 again?

[raidyr]

i'm currently curious if you guys are planning to add the suppression mechanic like bf3 has (and the exp rewards for suppressing enemies, as a role).

also do you see any reason why prone should be excluded from ps2?
I hope not because those are objectively bad mechanics.

i know for example CS:GO doesn't have much for modern features like BF3, and i just can't stand playing CS:GO due to those features being absent.


Ugh.

[Noivad]

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

1. I was going to tar and feathered you, but since the line is so long, and I had more important things to do then wait for it, I decided to just hang you from the tallest tree, slow enough so as not to break your neck to see you squirm, choke to death, and pee your pants. After all your NC and must pay for your nasty deeds to the terran Empire.

But then I realized once dead you just respawn to torment me and the Terran Empire again. Enough Said on that.

2. I have been playing since early 2004 and I am NOT a bitter Vet.

3. I like the class / Role System you have come up with. In PS1 on the Emerald now Gemini Server I had a toon for the different roles, I precieved in game. I got all of them to BR 25, and have been uping them all to BR40 as I go. I only have the one CR5. If you added all their BR up, I would be over BR 150 - Not including all the toons I had on the werner and markov servers.

4. In PS2 you made it eaiser for me. You combined roles into classes so there are less of them. So instead of having a toon set up seperately, for Sniper, and Inflitrator, I can just have one. And now all my roles that I played on PS1 on several different toons can now be played on just 6. And all the points/xp from all the seperate ones will all go to one xp pool that I can draw from for all my classes. So your class system does simly things. And I thank you.:evil:

[outsider]

How is a leveless/classless system innovative? I seem to remember playing games back in the 90's that allowed that.
Both systems are old and choosing one over the other just comes down to design choice.

Yes my opening statement did say 20 years. so the 90's is accurate. What came to mind was UO ( which I started playing in 91 ), which had a very nice system.

I think we've gone as far as a class based system can take us and realised that it is an impass.

To be fair though PS2 is a hybrid of the 2, with a deeper tiered cert system in the background that should give longevity to playing those classes. The fact that there are classes is what will cause problems to a persons freedom to play various roles within their outfits. And success of the zerg will be further limited in the same way as other class based pvp games due to the fact that there will be an absence of healers.

I will concede your point though that classless / leveless is not innovation but it is a breath of fresh air. The same as PS2 will be a breath of fresh air that the MMO community needs.

[NivexQ]

"jack of all trades" didnt come around until they upped it to br25 really, and now its just stupid with br 40... I really like certs, but im waiting unt beta before I complain about anything

[Malorn]

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

ESports will get you tarred and feathered.

The class system is great. The cert model just doesn't scale well at all. Forced specialization is a good thing.

[Littleman]

"jack of all trades" didnt come around until they upped it to br25 really, and now its just stupid with br 40... I really like certs, but im waiting unt beta before I complain about anything

Really, the only time someone was called a "one-man" army or "jack-of-all-trades" was when they had Rexo-HA-AV-Med-Eng, which could be purchased with points to spare at BR20. Tanks still had only a big cannon and a pea-shooter. They weren't designed to handle air-craft. Skyguards were only good against aircraft. Mosquitoes weren't equipped to take on heavy armor, they just farmed squishies and hunted down stupid infils.

Vehicles WERE classes. And they required multiple people to work... most of them.

But the Rexo-*Xwep-*Ywep-Med-Eng setup had no real weaknesses. They were prepared for everything and anything and never needed the aid of a specialized medic or engineer to keep fighting. They were a class unto themselves, and a hellaciously effective one, which is why they're still so common - it's the go-to setup.

* = weapon of choice, though the standard set was typically HA and AV.

I support a class based system because it doesn't force me to set up and level multiple characters to experience everything there is to do in game, while offering the specialization some here railing against the class system believes would be achievable by simply reducing the number of cert points one could have in PS1 which is frankly, the most ass-backwards thinking I can imagine on the subject, because we get classes anyway, only they're suggesting one class per toon.

I have five words for these people: **** you, you are ******ed.

I do agree classless systems are pretty awesome... in PvE environments. AI monsters don't bitch when killed by the flavor-of-the-month combo. Class systems are simply easier to balance in PvP and do in fact encourage teamwork. Complete self-sufficiency - like we see with the standard infantry set up in PS1 - only discourages team play and will NEVER promote it. There's just more power working as a group.

And before anyone jumps on the one-man tank opportunity, they cost resources and are said to be rather fragile if struck from the proper angle (the rear.) They'll need real support to keep them from becoming rolling tombs. See also: Reavers and mosquitoes. This time around, it's only fair the rolling cannon can be single-manned seeing as the aircraft retain their higher tier firepower.

[Red Beard]

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

You gown' get tarred and HAIRED with yer own haircut clippuns ! Yeeeeehaw!

:D

[ChipMHazard]

Yes my opening statement did say 20 years. so the 90's is accurate. What came to mind was UO ( which I started playing in 91 ), which had a very nice system.

I think we've gone as far as a class based system can take us and realised that it is an impass.

To be fair though PS2 is a hybrid of the 2, with a deeper tiered cert system in the background that should give longevity to playing those classes. The fact that there are classes is what will cause problems to a persons freedom to play various roles within their outfits. And success of the zerg will be further limited in the same way as other class based pvp games due to the fact that there will be an absence of healers.

I will concede your point though that classless / leveless is not innovation but it is a breath of fresh air. The same as PS2 will be a breath of fresh air that the MMO community needs.

Oh, sorry I missed that.

Perhaps, although skill based games are still rare. Classless fps games have been popular for a long time and more and more games seem to follow that model, perhaps to bank on COD:MW's ability to customize your loadout, I know IW weren't the frist to invent that. Then there are games like Tribes: Ascend where you have a class based system really focusing on everyone having a particular role. Still seems like more of a design choice than anything else, but I might be wrong.

I agree, PS2 is going to try and mix the two at the expense of the freedom you had in PS, in theory anyway:D
I would still prefer that zerg scenario over allowing all players to say heal themselves. Then again we don't know just how appealing they will end up making medics, but I could certainly believe that more "zerg" players will pick purely combat oriented classes over support classes.

I don't know how fresh the idea of having a classless system really is in the FPS genre. Seeing as games like the COD:MW series have been around for years. Skill based, well have there actually been any FPS in recent history that had a skill based system?
I do agree that strict class based systems have dominated MMOs for a long time and in that respect I can see your point about the other systems being a breath of fresh air.
And I do agree that less strict class systems, offering more varity in gameplay, and skill based systems have become more popular in the world of MMOs.
But from what I've seen most MMOs use more of a hybrid class system.
Of course I could be wrong in that observation. :p

[Red Beard]

Honestly, before I started playing PS1 again a few days ago and realized that people were now BR40 and could do everything I would have agreed with you. I loved the classless system. It had enough cert points to allow your character to specialize just enough. Then they increased the max BR and it ruined the balance of the game.

Which is why I've come around to the class system. There's no way they can screw it up like they did in PS1. This is coming from a guy who's favorite MMORPG is still Ultima Online, a totally classless game.



Both the infiltrator and engineer have access to mines, but the infiltrator only has access to anti-infantry mines.

This...the BR system caused you to be rewarded for specialization, but when I started watching again the BR are just so high wrecks it IMO. I think they did this as a quick fix for appeasing people that wanted 'more content', so it looks like they threw them that bone, but distorted the game mechanics a bit when they did.

[OnexBigxHebrew]

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

Wouldn't want to get tar in that beautiful hair, now would we?

...about that...

[Metalsheep]

Couldn't you just play Medic? You already have recharging Shields, assuming medics can heal themselves, it would be just like PS1. They just don't have AV at all times. And HA doesn't matter as much due to really fast TTKs.

I liked the old cert system. People basically delegated themselves into classes on their own. But they could also hybridize the classes too. Like a medic cloaker, or a Engineer Sniper. It wasn't really until BR 25-40 that the one-man-army Rexo Grunt became commonplace as well as MAX spam.

[Talek Krell]

I liked the old cert system. People basically delegated themselves into classes on their own. But they could also hybridize the classes too. Like a medic cloaker, or a Engineer Sniper. It wasn't really until BR 25-40 that the one-man-army Rexo Grunt became commonplace as well as MAX spam.Having a class system doesn't necessarily prevent including unusual combinations, it simply allows the devs finer control over which ones are possible.

Classes allow people some adaptability without letting things get out of hand. If the fight you're in desperately needs a medic, then you can be a medic. You may not be a great medic, but at least you won't have to recall to sanc/wait 4 more hours because you wanted to try the tank today.

[Kezz]

Having a class system doesn't necessarily prevent including unusual combinations, it simply allows the devs finer control over which ones are possible.
It allows the devs finer control than in PS1. If they put a couple of days concentrated thought into it, they could easily control which combinations are possible.

PS1's system started out "mostly fit for purpose" and became less so as time went on and BRs got higher and higher. I must confess, I'd not realised the cap had been raised from 25. 25 was pushing it when I played last, but even at a cap of 40, Advanced Hackers aren't exactly common.

The thing with class systems is they only ever allow the combinations the devs have thought of, and that's never enough. Decades of experience in proper RPGs confirms this. Any class-based system ends up spawning expansions with hybrid class after hybrid class because people like to be able to do the 2 things they want to do together. They want to cast magic and use a sword, so they're happy to have the Warlock class that's a good bit worse than a Mage at magic, and a good bit worse than a fighter at fighting with a sword. Because they think they can make it work, or hell, they just want to mix it up a little.

And anyone who thinks they can't fuck up the balance of the classes just as bad as they screwed PS1 is in la-la land.

This remake is screaming "Driven by the beancounters" to me. When Higby said "Let's do PS2," the money men hemmed and hawed for a bit and said "Yeah, copy the most popular FPS, and add persistence to it." Which of course will work, same as SWTOR did, when they copied the most popular MMORPG and added storyline to it. For those of you not au fait with recent MMO history, SWTOR was a stinker (at least relative to the expectations raised); my WoW guild was really looking forward to it, and of the people I know who got the game, no more than 10% are still playing it.

Classes exist as crutches. A crutch for the hard-of-thinking who can't pick skills to support a role. A crutch for game designers who can't find mechanics to prevent abuse of the freedom. Classes also have retro appeal to some people, but retro appeal in the PS "idiom" would have a cert-based system.

[Littleman]

Problem is... the mechanics that prevent the abuse of freedom pretty much align with a class system. It's a false sense of freedom, and it really can be just as restricted. The class system just spells out what one could put together into a single kit. "If you want a med app, you can't carry a sniper rifle, heavy armor, minigun, rocket launcher, etc." Instead of simply picking up the med app and fading the rest of these items out, you pick a medic and it sets you up with a basic load out that the medic can equip, and only shows you what the medic can equip. Picking the HA class is essentially like equipping the rexo armor, and all the support tools are faded out as a result.

There's no two ways around this. People are getting hung up on the word "class," despite the act of restricting one from setting up the old school "all-rounder" OP loadout being the purpose, with or without the "class" label. And then we do have people complaining they've lost their free-form load-outs, but clearly, the plan isn't to allow anyone to freely choose the default/most common load out seen in Planetside 1, so their argument is moot. It ain't changing.

Studies show that when people are given too many options, they tend to go with the first option or none at all. There was no mention of it, but I'm sure being told by someone with experience which option(s) to choose can greatly influence their decision. Planetside 2 will have 6 classes neatly lined up, and players can pick the general flavor they prefer and retool it to their specifications from there.

If this concept somehow upsets you, tough $#!%: welcome to being the (elite?) minority.

It's possible the devs could make one class undeniably THE class to be but it'd be much easier to fix, though I believe killwhores outnumbering support minded players, rexo/LA/MAX will be very common by default.

Retro appeal in the PS idiom wouldn't be doing PS2 any favors. It's 2012. The FPS market and it's player base has changed.

[Kezz]

Problem is... the mechanics that prevent the abuse of freedom pretty much align with a class system.
Wrong-o. They can do. Any system can be badly designed. But they can also be set up to permit a far wider variety of combinations than any class system can in the same amount of development time.

...their argument is moot. It ain't changing.
It's all moot. You're right, the decision has been made in another place, and it's a fucking crying shame.

Retro appeal in the PS idiom wouldn't be doing PS2 any favors. It's 2012. The FPS market and it's player base has changed.
Aye. Probably right there. I mentioned it only because some good friends are keen on the "retro" gaming movement (if it can be called something as grandiose as a "movement"), who don't need the crutches (as most games players don't, if only game designers would see that), but like to play "old school" games that have them as integral parts of the systems. PS2 should be as forward-looking as it can be.

If Higby et al have produced something that can transcend the inherent stifling bonds of a class-based system, I'll be near the head of the line to congratulate them. From what I've seen, I'm not optimistic.

[Littleman]

Wrong-o. They can do. Any system can be badly designed. But they can also be set up to permit a far wider variety of combinations than any class system can in the same amount of development time.

Hah, no. Restrictions on a per equipment basis or restrictions on a class basis, the developers have complete control over what one is allowed to combine. The medic could have access to every weapon and tool in game except smoke grenades if they so chose. The issue here is that a wider variety of combinations actually encourages less combinations over all: there will naturally just be THE combos to have (see: rexo/weapons/medapp/glue) the more freedom there is offered.

Also, the individual classes can grow fairly powerful in their own right with their certs separated as they are. Imagine combining a fully certs med app with a fully certed rexo armor and HA/AV. Good times for the new guys...

The level of restrictions we see in PS2 are exactly the restrictions SOE wants the players to work with, again, like I said, with or without the class label or mechanic. There wasn't a magical "make classes" button and the engine set specific equipment combinations up for them. Classes just streamline the process of selecting equipment that is compatible with the defining tool of the "class," such as a med app (medic,) nano dispenser and ACE (engineer,) jetpack (light assault,) heavy assault (rexo,) infiltrator (stealth suit/sniper rifle.) MAX should be pretty self explanatory to a vet.

[Kezz]

Hah, no. Restrictions on a per equipment basis or restrictions on a class basis, the developers have complete control over what one is allowed to combine.
Well, duh.

The difference between a class based system and a skill based one is that the former only has the permitted combinations that have been precreated and the latter only excludes the combinations that have been determined to be "overpowered". Yes, it permits underpowered combos too, but people will make mistakes when they cert anyway.

...there will naturally just be THE combos to have (see: rexo/weapons/medapp/glue)...
This will be true whatever choices are offered. Even in PS1 (which I'll reiterate: I'm not holding up as some paragon of perfect design), that "base loadout" didn't use up all your certs, even at BR25 cap; there was still variation on top of that.

Also, the individual classes can grow fairly powerful in their own right with their certs separated as they are. Imagine combining a fully certs med app with a fully certed rexo armor and HA/AV. Good times for the new guys...
Yeah, that'd be dumb, if the med app worked as well with the HA as it would with the medic armour. It'd be like putting rails on a ship with an AC bonus (that's an EVE reference): you can do it if you think you can make it work because of other factors. You're just showing you haven't really applied your imagination to the potentials.

The level of restrictions we see in PS2 are exactly the restrictions SOE wants the players to work with...
Again, duh. They wrote the thing. It'd be a bit odd if they somehow managed to put in restrictions they didn't want.

They're just lacking in vision.

Classes just streamline the process of selecting equipment that is compatible with the defining tool of the "class," such as a med app (medic,) nano dispenser and ACE (engineer,) jetpack (light assault,) heavy assault (rexo,) infiltrator (stealth suit/sniper rifle.) MAX should be pretty self explanatory to a vet.
Again, no. They do do that, but a) it's not necessary, b) guidance for the newb can be achieved through other means, and c) it's taking away from something players really enjoy doing.

[roguy]

The difference between a class based system and a skill based one is that the former only has the permitted combinations that have been precreated and the latter only excludes the combinations that have been determined to be "overpowered". Yes, it permits underpowered combos too, but people will make mistakes when they cert anyway.


That's some really weird reasoning you have there. You can't have something underpowered without something else being overpowered and vice versa.... :groovy:


This will be true whatever choices are offered. Even in PS1 (which I'll reiterate: I'm not holding up as some paragon of perfect design), that "base loadout" didn't use up all your certs, even at BR25 cap; there was still variation on top of that.


Really, what variation? Choice of vehicles? Everyone with a brain or wanted to do well had the exact same loadout. In PS2 you have at least 6 different potential load outs wich all have distinct and necessary roles. Rather than really just one cookie-cutter Rexo spec and stuff like adv-medic-cloakers for morons...


Yeah, that'd be dumb, if the med app worked as well with the HA as it would with the medic armour. It'd be like putting rails on a ship with an AC bonus (that's an EVE reference): you can do it if you think you can make it work because of other factors. You're just showing you haven't really applied your imagination to the potentials.


Firstly, Eve's balance is a disaster and has been since it's creation.

Secondly, Eve avoids making cookie-cutter setups by making certain weapons/modules into steel-solid hard counters: Blasterthron vs Suckadom = Blasterthron will always unconditionnally lose because it's hardcoded in the ships stats. Has that been fixed? I don't know, but it was a big problem for over 2 years at least.

Thirdly, try picking a game that more closely resembles Planetside gameplay and customisation like the Tribes series. At tournament level: Tribes 1 everyone played light armor/spinfusor/energy pack. Tribes 2 everyone played light armor/spinfusor/energy pack. Tribes 3 (Vengeance) everyone played light armor/spinfusor/energy pack with the grappler maybe. Tribes 4 (Ascend, wich has a class system) people play Pathfinders, Raiders, Technicians etc.... See the trend?


Again, no. They do do that, but a) it's not necessary

Yeah, it is. You make this half-baked admission of the med app being the exception but so far most, if not all, the restrictions we've seen so far in PS2 make sense to anyone with a clue about balancing.

Examples:
LA not being allowed to carry an ammo pack? Makes sense, otherwise they'd be able to permanently camp roof tops, they don't need self healing anyway because they can just hide out of reach of everyone else and wait for their shield regen.

No one can use sniper rifles except for infiltrators? Good move, else LAs would camp mostly unattainable positions where they can't be countered by anything other than enemy snipers and aircraft, and they'd be OP. So OP in fact, that there'd be no reason for other classes to use that weapon.

Cloakers running around with Jackhammers?

Invisible Heavy assaults?

Maxes with repair tools?

Maxes with pistols?

If you don't apparently have a "lack of vision", give us some examples of how you would make it work.

[Kezz]

Here's an example of one way you could start going about designing something a bit like PS without classes. Note: it is an example for illustrative purposes only, and not directly applicable to any extant game that I'm aware of. Specifics are for example purposes only. 30s could be 10s or a minute. It's the principles that I'm illustrating.

Let's consider a system with one standard type of armour. It has 2 backpack slots for "signature" abilities. There are 4 different backpacks.

The Revival Unit: necessary to use certs from the "Emergency Resuscitation" tree.
The Shield Enhancement unit: when activated it generates an ablative shield that makes you significantly harder to kill.
The Jump Unit: when activated, you get jump jets for up to 10s.
Aux Reactor: doubles your energy regen rate.

Backpack units (except the Aux Reactor) burn energy on activation. Shield and Revive activations burn the entire suit's energy pool; JJets will burn it over 10s. The pool will regenerate from empty to full in 30s.

In this vastly simplified example, you can have 2 out of three 'signature' things, but only do one thing at a time, or you can specialise (by taking an Aux Reactor, instead of a different ability), and you'll be twice as good at your sole signature ability. Any combination is going to be powerful and worth playing. Any combination of people with different combinations is going to be powerful in different situations. Double Jump might be the least common, and the same number of hybrids facing off against an equal team of specialists should, mathematically, lose, since they have half the potential activations that the specialists do, but if they can exploit their individual versatility they can get away.

Balancing can be at the front end (how big is the shield, how far is the jump, per second) or at the back end, with energy use (exactly how much energy does each ability use? Does the shield use it progressively as it takes damage? Is the Aux Reactor increasing regen rate by more or less than 100%?). Adding other factors "under the hood" like mass or nanofactory capacity can create synergies or negative feedback or diminishing returns to make things interesting. And once you have a coherent system you can open up the hood and allow players to tinker, so perhaps they get a capacitor for their abilties, so they can both be used quickly, but then all recharge is split between them and they can't use them again til full recharge. And with higher certs in the Energy Management tree they can tune the recharge split so the JJet gets more or less of the recharge than the revive unit, adjusting their personal balance between mobility and healing. But they still can't do more than 2 "signature moves" per double-recharge period.

It's a small example. By no means exhaustive. I think it shows you can apply limitations without pigeonholing.

[roguy]

It's a small example. By no means exhaustive. I think it shows you can apply limitations without pigeonholing.

Yeah, a very small example. Wich would never work because it's a balancing nightmare since it's a system that exponentially becomes more convoluted and complicated the more you add to the game.

So instead of balancing the game by pitting 6 classes and tweaking the stats independantly so they're about even (by use, K/D, xp gain, the usual stuff).

You would need to balance 6 armor types with 15 "backpack" combinations (assuming theres 6 and you can combine 2) each, wich means 90 different "specs" to balance. Excluding weapons of course, wich would probably take it over 500 anyway. And excluding the ability to "tweak" the stats yourself.

THEN suppose the LA is OP with the Ammo + Jetpack "backpack slots", how would you go about nerfing that combo? Would you nerf the armor type and make the other LA combos underpowered or would you nerf the jetpack and ruin it for the other armor types?

It doesn't work, and any dev thinking that's a good idea would be committing career suicide.

[Klockan]

Much text.
Congratulations on inventing classes! A class system doesn't have to be that restrictive. A common way to do things is to have your class use its own things with better effect while it can still use everyone else things. Penalties for using cross class equipment could be half the jumpjet height, much slower ress and heal, twice the reloadtime and worse accuracy for weapons etc. Then we would basically have the system you are advocating for.

But to me it just seems like you are angry because the build you want to play isn't compatible with the current classes. But that's the point, there are no optimal classes that are good with a large variety of situations. Every class is highly situational and in every situation you have to innovate with what you got or die.

But that's the point, jump packs feels much more special if not everyone got them, same with healing, repairing, anti vehicle and cloak. None will pick medic just so that they can heal themselves between combat since then they would gimp themselves for said combat. Thus to get healed you need a buddy. You can't just play a heavy with a medipack instead of a rocket launcher which is what people would do if you were allowed to do that.

[Littleman]

But to me it just seems like you are angry because the build you want to play isn't compatible with the current classes. But that's the point, there are no optimal classes that are good with a large variety of situations. Every class is highly situational and in every situation you have to innovate with what you got or die.

Classes, especially in a PvP "team-based" game (thinking of Team Fortress,) really are about this. It's natural that we'd want to build our own kits to ride out into battle with: we'd build them to handle the situations we plan to be in, preferably every situation conceivable.

Classes aren't about the lack of control in customizing one's own gaming experience around how one wants to play. That's not what they're being designed for, that's just the unfortunate result. Classes are about strengths and weaknesses, and encouraging at least a modicum of teamwork with the idea that different classes will be covering for each others weaknesses. Soloists will be SoL when they really need what another class offers, and will have to figure out how to make the most of what they got.

Some people will love a few classes over other classes, but at no point will they be capable of having a class prepared for nearly all situations. A severely wounded HA can't hide behind a rock and heal themselves anymore, and to me that is a huge leap in the right direction.

[Kezz]

Yeah, a very small example.
Well now, I seem to have won a couple of bets with myself.

1) Someone would say it's a small example and therefore invalid.
2) those who cavail miss the point that it's not about the armour or the jets, it's about the principle, as I said, of having something underlying that controls what people can do.

Classes also become exponentially more complicated to balance as you add them, and there will always be someone who claims class x is useless or overpowered and often they'll be right.

You would need to balance 6 armor types...
Or you could recognise that you don't need 6 armour types. That's what PS2 has. Ps1 had 4 (really 3 when you're talking about choices; did anyone seriously prefer Basic over Agile?) plus MAX.

THEN suppose the LA is OP with the Ammo + Jetpack "backpack slots", how would you go about nerfing that combo? Would you nerf the armor type and make the other LA combos underpowered or would you nerf the jetpack and ruin it for the other armor types?
You did read the bit about it not being about the specifics, and being about the principle. The principle is that energy consumption (and/or other tactical resources) control what's going on. If you have mass, affecting how far JJets get you, you maybe make the Ammo pack heavier, so it gimps the Jets for that combo. And maybe add some nano consumption for it too. I notice that you've automatically assumed there will be a separate "LA" armour type, when I included no such thing in my example. Well done on the reading comprehension and suspending your own biases.

It doesn't work, and any dev thinking that's a good idea would be committing career suicide.
There are dozens of adequately balanced classless (and mostly level-less) rulesets out there, that you're obviously unware of, from simple ones starting with 6 points and 50-odd different skills to 400 page rulebooks with 100s of points to spend.

Just because you can't conceive of how something can be done doesn't mean it's impossible.

Congratulations on inventing classes!
Yay! Another bet with myself won!

If there was a snowball's chance in hell that there would be any change, I might write up a skeleton cert tree that would show you that the core abilities of a role are far from classes, but since that would be a waste of a few hours, I'll pass. I offer a simple blocky example and you take it for the whole deal. Nice one.

A class system doesn't have to be that restrictive.
No, but people always want to have "just one thing" that's cross class. Why do you think DnD allowed such free multiclassing in v3.x? And still people wanted prestige classes that were hybrids of every possible combo. I haven't seen anything to say that in PS2 anyone can take any abilities outside the class they're currently playing. I've heard it said that there aren't even any cross-class certs that can be used in whatever class you're currently playing. Some class based systems (Rolemaster was one) let you take picks from outside your class, but the cost was heinous, and there was probably a hybrid class that meant you didn't need to. If you had enough expansions, or made your own.

But to me it just seems like you are angry because the build you want to play isn't compatible with the current classes.
I don't give a flying fandango whether "what I want to play" isn't compatible with the classes.

...there are no optimal classes...
Nor do I give a fig about "optimal". I want everyone to be able to try combinations. There's a new MMORPG out which is classless, and has effectively got what you could think of as cert trees. You can only use 2 weapons (and therefore types of active ability) at once, and only 7 active and 7 passive skills at any one time, but you can incorporate any sort of passive if it helps. And all the weapons rock, in the right situation. Not all the combinations do, but that's just fine; there are more viable ones than non-viable, and so far no one's found a cookie-cutter "one build to rule them all".

...[stuff] feels much more special if not everyone got them...
Having your own style that you've made work feels even more special yet.

None will pick medic just so that they can heal themselves between combat since then they would gimp themselves for said combat.
Apart from the fact that they've already said the medic will be able to run and gun with the rest of the posse... As it is, Medic is going to have to hang back because they'll be the only one able to heal, and they can kiss any chance to run and gun goodbye (which is the devs missing the point). And if your Medic goes down, that's "bye bye" to the squad. Or will you be gimping the squad's combat power and bringing 2 or 3 Medics?

Thus to get healed you need a buddy. You can't just play a heavy with a medipack instead of a rocket launcher which is what people would do if you were allowed to do that.
So you're saying people would gimp their combat abilities to be able to heal themselves now, given the opportunity? Which is it?

Anyway, the horse is dead. It has little hide left on it. My arm is tired and I'm going to stop flogging it. You're still wrong though.

[Buggsy]

Infantry combat in PS1 is superior to COD infantry combat, why are they changing it?

[Littleman]

Apart from the fact that they've already said the medic will be able to run and gun with the rest of the posse... As it is, Medic is going to have to hang back because they'll be the only one able to heal, and they can kiss any chance to run and gun goodbye (which is the devs missing the point). And if your Medic goes down, that's "bye bye" to the squad. Or will you be gimping the squad's combat power and bringing 2 or 3 Medics?

YES! Welcome to the concept of give and take! And no, the dev's didn't miss the point: the medic clearly has a weapon, they can and should fight too.

It's a good thing SOE is in charge of development. No, really. If it weren't for PS1, we wouldn't really be having this discussion right now, there'd be no prior inventory system to desperately cling onto.

[roguy]

1) Someone would say it's a small example and therefore invalid.
2) those who cavail miss the point that it's not about the armour or the jets, it's about the principle, as I said, of having something underlying that controls what people can do.


1) First off, your example isn't invalid because it's small, it's invalid because it's stupid, it's also invalid because there's no way to make it work with as much diversity as there is in PS2. We havn't even addressed what potential benefit there is to your system other than your claim that "something players really enjoy doing" wich is shaky at best, as shown by me and other posters in this thread.

2) Then rethink your idea, then we'll see if it can hold up to the armour and jets example, wich was just an example. Your principle doesn't work, otherwise you'd be explaining to me how to solve it.



Classes also become exponentially more complicated to balance as you add them


No they don't, because in the class system all you have to do to sort out a balance issue would be to raise/decrease the classes overall effectiveness.
Rather than discover that HA+Healing combo is broken, then being trapped because whatever change you apply will have a domino effect on all other armours/abilities/combinations in the game (such as LA+Healing or HA+shield). You failed to figure that out last time i gave you examples, concentrate and maybe this time you'll figure it out.


, and there will always be someone who claims class x is useless or overpowered and often they'll be right.


Sweeping generalisation fail. :doh:
Battlefield and TF2 seem to be doing just fine by the way.


Or you could recognise that you don't need 6 armour types. That's what PS2 has. Ps1 had 4 (really 3 when you're talking about choices; did anyone seriously prefer Basic over Agile?) plus MAX.


Then your game sucks for having less variety then, but that's irrelevant since balancing 6 classes is ridiculously easier than 70 or 40 or any number above, y'know, 6.


If you have mass, affecting how far JJets get you, you maybe make the Ammo pack heavier, so it gimps the Jets for that combo. And maybe add some nano consumption for it too. I notice that you've automatically assumed there will be a separate "LA" armour type, when I included no such thing in my example. Well done on the reading comprehension and suspending your own biases.


We are on the PS2 discussion forums arn't we? It's pretty hard for me to test out your "principle" when you keep it as vague as possible.

If your theory doesn't have LAs, does it have MAX suits then? Because considering the mass they'd be pretty shit with jetpacks, so what's the point in giving it to them in the first place? But yeah, that's how the Tribes franchise did it and everything other than light armor sucked donkey balls in the first 3 iterations until they *finnally* added classes in the 4th. Hey it's your idea, so instead of letting me try to sort out your gaps in logic for you, gimme a specific example.


There are dozens of adequately balanced classless (and mostly level-less) rulesets out there, that you're obviously unware of, from simple ones starting with 6 points and 50-odd different skills to 400 page rulebooks with 100s of points to spend.


Then give examples. I showed you how shit Eve Online was in this regard already.


There's a new MMORPG out which is classless, and has effectively got ...

What MMO? And let me guess, it isn't PVP is it?



As it is, Medic is going to have to hang back because they'll be the only one able to heal, and they can kiss any chance to run and gun goodbye (which is the devs missing the point).

You've never played a Battlefield game have you?

[Dir]

Infantry combat in PS1 is superior to COD infantry combat, why are they changing it?

I don't mind them changing it so long as it works and people are happy with it after they have gotten to know it. What I would mind is if the same inflexibility many of us feel toward change also manifested itself in the people we are relying on to bring us a product that will keep our interest in the coming decade.

Why are they changing it? I don't know...and I don't care as long as it works but if it's clear it doesn't work? Please change it back.

Dir
A Bitter Vet.

[ChookWantan]

COD IS NOT A CLASS BASED GAME. I'm not a huge fan of the game, but let's at least be correct when we refer to things. COD gives you the freedom to customize your character to your hearts content. BF, however, is a class based game.

[Marinealver]

Yeah in PS1 you could easily ID yourself with whatever you specalized in, Such as a Gal Pilot or a Tank Driver ect. but people did exploit it into a 1 Man Army.

PS1 sort of looses that but you still can specilize in other things. Like a dedicated tanker would cert in all tank modifications and upgrades (even pay some real $$$ for a ingame paint job) while the jack of all trades won't have a trickout tank or gun or uniform but will simply spread his certs across the board.