Orbital Strike: Does it negate good team game play? [Archive]

Tatwi

2012-07-05, 11:11 AM

Question: Would a game play mechanic like Planetside's Oribital Strike negate good team game play, at the expense of the spirit of the game?

The main purpose of Planetside 2 will be to set team goals and accomplish them through the use of sound tactics and persistence. As a result, I have to wonder if OS is simply too easy and too powerful of a game mechanic to justify its use in Planetside 2.

As an example, last night in PS1 the VS fought for at least 2 hours to take the shore on the other side of a bridge. When the VS finally got organized and were able to push over the bridge with a bunch of tanks, air cav, troops, a bus, and a BFR they were able to land some Load Stars on the shore to repair the tanks. This repair depot was successful in keeping the tanks on the field and the troops, bus, air cav, and BFR were able to defend the repair depot to ensure its ongoing use. This in the field repair depot was the result of literally hours of effort and, it worked perfectly until it was hit by two back to back Orbital Strikes and was completely removed from the game in an instant. At that point, the progression in the whole battle was reset, with the end result being most of the VS logged out shortly afterwards.

So I have to ask, is that really how people want game play to be in Planetside 2? To me, it's seems contrary to spirit of the game, in that an instant, unavoidable, easy to use attack by a single player can (that cannot be countered) negate hours of team play. Also, it seems to negatively impact the flow of the game, while also making people feel like their time has been wasted (which is contrary to having fun and games are, by definition, supposed to be fun).

I'm all for big explosions and tactical game play, which is actually why I'd prefer not to see a game play mechanic like Planetside's Oribital Strike in Planetside 2. I would refer to see massive, long range explosions caused by artillery pieces or mortars, because those threats can be countered through cooperative game play.

Hosp

2012-07-05, 11:22 AM

What you're really saying is...1 guy with an OS shouldn't be able to take out a team to some extent that it demoralizes that team.

To which i say, maybe that 1 guy wasn't working alone and it in actuality took a team effort to get that OS off.

In general, a good OS isn't as easy to land as many may think. But when you leave a nice juicy target to get blown up, that's entirely the fault of whoever (individuals or teams) is leaving that target open to such an attack.

That being said, if i see friendly loadies bunched up, i will stop and go out of my way to tell them to split up so they don't all get OSd. Same with Galaxies loading up, armor bunching up around repair stations etc.

Besides, it doesn't seem like OSs will be as spammable in PS2. so there's nothing to worry about.

Metalsheep

2012-07-05, 11:35 AM

An Orbital strike i think fits perfectly into teamplay. Need a hard emplacement destroyed so you can move your teammates into the breach? Launch your OS. Need to hit that otherwise intangible AMS to take pressure off your base? OS it.

Once upon a time people had to EARN their OS's. Getting to CR4-5 was no easy feat, and OS's were rare and battlefield changing occurrences. It took a ton of teamwork to even unlock the ability to use the OS. The problem with OS's came after so many people earned CR4-5 and basically everyone had an OS. I've even used my own OS on a single sniper or wall turret just because i could.

if they came up with a way to better delegate OS's they could still be awesome tools.

Sledgecrushr

2012-07-05, 12:12 PM

Doxy

2012-07-05, 12:17 PM

But doesn't OS has a visual identification before it hit?
Im pretty sure it's not that difficult to avoid it.

Kayos

2012-07-05, 12:18 PM

I hope OS's aren't even in PS2. Last night in PS1 I was repairing turrets at the base I was defending when I got hit 4 times in a row from OS's while repairing the bases turrets. It is just spammed these days.

Sledgecrushr

2012-07-05, 12:20 PM

Last time I was hit by an os I was sitting in a turret on a tower holding off a small squad and truthfully I couldnt get out fast enough. Ez win for that small squad.

maddoggg

2012-07-05, 12:21 PM

I am seriosly not a big fan of OS,i absolutely hated it in bf 2142.

SixShooter

2012-07-05, 12:27 PM

I can see the point of the OP but this is not a great example. First off, How many friendly OS's were used to take that piece of shore in the first place? Secondly, why was everything grouped in such a way that the battle could be lost with only two enemy strikes?

Honestly I could do without orbital strikes just because I hate that kind of stuff in games but if it ends up in PS2 then I'll learn to live with it and adjust my tactics accordingly.

Sephirex

2012-07-05, 12:29 PM

If orbital strikes are brought in, I'd like to see massive resource costs and also some strategy or ability given to get out of the area in time or take shelter.

RedKnights

2012-07-05, 12:36 PM

An OS is hardly an "I win" button. If I had a dollar for everytime I see one go off and not hit a single soul, i'd have a LOT of cash on my hands.

The OS, even in PS1 is:

Easy to Avoid - A Galaxy/Bus can go from a standstill to beyond the radius easily.
Very Audibly and Visually Recognizable - You never have to question if it's coming
Does not inflict much damage to a side - At most you will lose a single mobile spawn point.

An OS was a 'setback' but if you were worth a damn, it didn't slow you down much.

As for it negating team play, i'm not sure how it effects that, I mean it's deployed by one person, but what is that going to accomplish without support from teammates to take advantage of it? Not much, that's what.

The fact is, so far we've heard it is definately going to be implimented in PS2, or something similar to it like an airstrike/kinetic space missiles. We'll have to see how it plays out.

Wahooo

2012-07-05, 12:38 PM

MetalSheep got it right. I have no issue with OS's themselves but the issue is simply the number available and that will be going off. There was really no long term planning is some of the BR/CR annual benefits with the game. Was suggested in a discussion a long time ago on the SOE forums that CR's should need to be maintained and that there be maybe like cert points so globals OS's and other things need should have to be chosen. Basically anything to cut down on the number of OS's that can be going off at any one time.

Purple

2012-07-05, 12:44 PM

i dont think an os should 1 hit everything.

GreatMazinkaise

2012-07-05, 01:13 PM

OSs are fine assuming they can't be spammed like they are now. Now in a session based shooter, yes, they are horribly broken, but that's something else.

Traenor

2012-07-05, 01:17 PM

I have never played PS1, and i do not care about the power level of OS´s. I do however dislike anything removing play and interesting decisions. OS does that, as it in a lot of its time affecting the warzone have little to no counterplay. (Unless i have completely misunderstood how OS works, but i cant really see how it can be an OS and still be interesting in play.)

Furber

2012-07-05, 01:36 PM

Huh, I can't recall a single time I needed anyone else to help me when I wanted to OS. You just hit "Reveal Enemies" (CUD ability gained at CR4), find a clump, and grab a bunch of free kills. It made AMSes rather easy to spot too since there would usually be a clump of enemies around the AMS. Maybe if they made it a little less of a solo job, and actually require some kind of coordination with other players, it would definitely fit in.

FPClark

2012-07-05, 01:55 PM

Synapse

2012-07-05, 02:25 PM

An OS is a win button with little strategic value. I like the idea of commanders having some pull with orbiting ships but not via an AOE 1-hit kill they can launch personally.

Perhaps something more strategic like an area denial weapon, DOT that kills things sitting in a certain spot for too long.

And I'd probably require a squad member to laze the target for you, because you'd have to call it from a console in a base. (maybe only particular bases have such consoles) If you required squad members lazing a target and sitting at a console you could make it a single target 1hit kill, meaning it's only good for stationary (or dumb) targets.

Similarly there's no reason it needs to do damage. What if it were an orbital dropped shield? You could drop glue from orbit that slows everyone in an area.

Or you could just give a commander a cooldown ability to give his whole squad a 0second respawn on a point of his choosing.

All of it better than what we have today.

If its powerful it's crucial that it always be rare though. Don't go the way of the PS1 devs with orbital strike thinking there would be no CR5s, or the Eve Online devs thinking no one would have 100 billion isk.

Put hard limits on the number of players who can use it. top ranked 5 players online or something.

WorldOfForms

2012-07-05, 02:29 PM

Those two lodestar pilots (and what sounds like, all the other vehicles) didn't know what they were doing.

Even if your Lodestar is parked on the ground, when you see/hear the charge up of the OS, if you elevate and afterburn you can easily dodge the strike.

So, were those Lode pilots not in the cockpits? Or were they AFK? If so, that's their problem, not the OS. Especially considering your troops had just secured a tough location. They should have been ready for immediate counterattack.

Hell, a REXO with surge can easily dodge an OS even if caught at the epicenter. The only thing that really can't dodge an OS is a deployed AMS, and that's how it's supposed to be.

Bags

2012-07-05, 02:32 PM

If your lodes get OSd then you probably need better pilots. You can take off easily and avoid an OS.

I tried to OS 3 lodestars last night and they all flew off before it hit.

Really only problem with OS is the number of them... I think it's fun trying to surge away from one, desperately heading for the door.

DarkChiron

2012-07-05, 02:42 PM

I don't know, OS just seems too much like those bullshit killstreak rewards you get in CoD. Rewards which the devs on multiple occasions have made fun of for how ridiculous they are.

Kezz

2012-07-05, 02:52 PM

OSes are a problem when they're:
a) too easy to use
and/or
b) so common that you're prepared to use them on trivial annoyances.

Either would be unfortunate. The situation in PS1, where both apply, is kinda ridiculous.

Artillery (of whatever stripe, Ortillery is one type) is an integral part of what we've come to think of as "combined" arms, and the "Tac Nuke" effect has its place in persuading people to maintain tactical spacing and discouraging swarms. The game would be poorer without 'em. So long as they can be kept as the difficult to use, expensive tool that they ought to be.

JimmyOmaha

2012-07-05, 03:03 PM

But doesn't OS has a visual identification before it hit?
Im pretty sure it's not that difficult to avoid it.

They do, but its still a pretty brief warning. Infantry have the best chance if they can get inside cover; but if you're not already moving when you see the indication its pretty much over.

Rivenshield

2012-07-05, 03:03 PM

Long cooldown periods -- I'm talking a day or more if in-game time a la grief points, not chronological time -- and an absolutely hellacious resource cost for each OS can help them from becoming the game-killing monster they have become in PS1. Maybe.

Whatever the devs implement need to look ahead a few years when you have hundreds of bored players filling their Command cert tree because it's the only cert tree *left.* And so do the OS advocates in this thread. That's more or less what happened in PS1. There needs to be some kind of absolute upper limit on how many times you can call down the wrath of God in the same area within a set period of time.

Snipefrag

2012-07-05, 03:35 PM

Jeez, a lot of moaning in here. OS's as a gameplay dynamic are fine, the problem is the sheer number of them around now. They should go to people who are actively leading.. As another strategic tool which can be used to turn a battle.. Not to just pad your kill count.

NEWSKIS

2012-07-05, 03:41 PM

The problem with OS's right now in PS1 isnt the OS itself but the amount of them. Long ago there werent that many OS's to be used so they were less common. When your empire had like 10-15 to use in 3 hours you had to not waste it.

If they have it in PS2, it needs a system to prevent a ton of them from being used, like making it very expensive on resources. Or another alternative is make them like a cr4 OS in PS1, where it has a very small radius and needs pinpoint accuracy for the greatest effect. That way it cannot by itself wipeout large numbers of people, but more to take out specific targets.

Kezz

2012-07-05, 04:08 PM

One way to limit spamming might be to start making them inaccurate after the first one in an area. The turbulence caused by the initial strike makes targetting iffy (or some other such handwave). Additional strikes in the same area would have as much chance of hitting friendlies as enemies, and an increasing chance of hitting empty ground as the trajectory deviation becomes larger with increasing "turbulence".

Making them have a hefty "Commandium" cost too would further discourage spamming. No one is going to waste resource on something that might well cost them a weapons lockout.

Tsunami

2012-07-05, 04:13 PM

Timealude

2012-07-05, 04:14 PM

orbital strikes are a form of a stalemate breaker....if you have 2 empires going at it on a bridge and they are staying at a stand still for an hr or so a well placed orbital strike and move game play along for each team. I do not see it as a form of an I win button just because everyone can get them with work....back when ps1 was younger people had to earn os and in planetside 2 i see them being alot harder to come by just for the fact that it will most likely take resources and have a huge timer...

One way to limit spamming might be to start making them inaccurate after the first one in an area. The turbulence caused by the initial strike makes targetting iffy (or some other such handwave). Additional strikes in the same area would have as much chance of hitting friendlies as enemies, and an increasing chance of hitting empty ground as the trajectory deviation becomes larger with increasing "turbulence".

Making them have a hefty "Commandium" cost too would further discourage spamming. No one is going to waste resource on something that might well cost them a weapons lockout.

lazers arent really effected by turbulence right?

Sephirex

2012-07-05, 04:16 PM

Hypevosa

2012-07-05, 04:26 PM

I think orbital strikes should require that you SET THEM UP. For anyone who's played C&C renegade, you know what I mean - someone goes in, plants a beacon of some sort, defends said beacon, and goes down with the ship, or something like that.

SixShooter

2012-07-05, 04:40 PM

idk if you saw what they were planning for the OS but you have to spend lots of "credits" just to get one and they vary in size, so it might be like 1 OS every 3 hours. Go big or go home idea.

and we don't know if you loose all your ammo if you die so if you die with it, you just sunk a ton of resources into something that didn't go off.

I would be fine with that as long as the resource cost was very sizeable. I would also like to see something like a prerequisite type of timer so you could only use it if have been commanding a squad (at least 90% full) for an hour (possibly longer). Also the cooldown timer would really need to be something like 12 - 24 hours. This would cut down on alot of the spam and really make you pick and choose your targets carefully.

MCYRook

2012-07-05, 04:41 PM

Of course the main issue in PS1 is that everyone and his mom has an OS nowadays, and they've been too abundant for many years.

But that only exasperates what is IMO not a good game mechanic to begin with. Whenever you have something that's so powerful that you need to put a very long cooldown on it to make it "balanced", you're probably looking at a pretty annoying mechanic.

It's worth noting that in PS1, OSes are mainly a tool for defenders that makes holding a base or tower even easier. As if the defenders don't already have enough advantages.

I do believe OSes will be in PS2 as well tho, so in short, this:
I dont like it in ps1 and hopefully its better balanced in ps2.

MrKWalmsley

2012-07-05, 04:50 PM

I have to agree with Sledges first comment.

Gonefshn

2012-07-05, 05:07 PM

OS should stay because they are awesome.

Crator

2012-07-05, 05:14 PM

The PS1 OS, 'gag'

I'm ok with the OS ability in PS2, just limit them somehow please!

Morphic

2012-07-05, 06:21 PM

The time between strikes and having to get close enough to do it and also the fact that it takes a while to even be able to earn this cert doesnt make it much of a problem I think.

Ratstomper

2012-07-05, 06:23 PM

I don't think OS negates team play. I think it negates team play when 90% of the whole empire are CR5s and can do that.

I think the issues we saw in PS1 were due to the command system, not OSes.

Stew

2012-07-05, 06:24 PM

Timealude

2012-07-05, 06:27 PM

Pretty much just described a "I win" button even if I agree with your point.

An I win button pretty much ensures you win...you can still come back after an OS its more of a game flow tool rather then grantee win which is what an I win button is.

Crator

2012-07-05, 06:42 PM

Its just a one time strike and it will not OWn an entire 300 players team at once lol he will be able to kills as many people as you do In BFbc 2 with a mortar strike or crysis2 / cod with a beam or napalm strike etc.. youll kill 1 to 8 guys MAX its not like a win button at all Hahahaha !

WTH ?

you think a single orbital strike will make one side win ?

i think you should be more worried about 50+ reavers squadron ;)

Did you ever play PS1 in the later years of the game? While it doesn't give an overall win, it seriously delays the battles. This is not as much of a problem as of late since there's so many people on that can just replace OSed AMSes easily. It was a pretty big time delay issue with battles when there wasn't as many people but the people that did play all had the OS. Seemed to cause a major back-n-forth effect in the battles...

Zebasiz

2012-07-05, 07:37 PM

I would be open to Os as long as they arn't as spammable as they are now.

Playing on Planetside day, in the span of a half hour the defenders of a base used 7 OS on us. And those are just the ones I saw. Really just became annoying after the 3rd one.

StumpyTheOzzie

2012-07-05, 08:09 PM

I'm all for big explosions and tactical game play, which is actually why I'd prefer not to see a game play mechanic like Planetside's Oribital Strike in Planetside 2. I would refer to see massive, long range explosions caused by artillery pieces or mortars, because those threats can be countered through cooperative game play.

That's exactly what I've been saying for YEARS! Having OS on a personal timer is silly. Having one on an empire timer is ok, but silly CR5s will ruin it. Having it as a resource based attak is just as silly as on a personal timer (Same thing really)

No OS, but bring back the flail!

GreatMazinkaise

2012-07-05, 08:43 PM

No one liked the Flail... so no dice...

moosepoop

2012-07-05, 08:47 PM

make OS cost 5 dollars to fire.

problem solved.

GLaDOS

2012-07-05, 08:55 PM

make OS cost 5 dollars to fire.

problem solved.

That would actually be a horrible idea, making the game much more pay-to-win. Having never played the original Planetside, I can't really know the best idea, but I feel like the previously mentioned option of artillery/mortar tanks could work well. They just seem like they would be a really cool addition to the battlefield.

Tsunami

2012-07-05, 10:03 PM

That would actually be a horrible idea, making the game much more pay-to-win. Having never played the original Planetside, I can't really know the best idea, but I feel like the previously mentioned option of artillery/mortar tanks could work well. They just seem like they would be a really cool addition to the battlefield.

alright how about $50

Draz

2012-07-05, 10:38 PM

Make OS an outfit perk. Experience earned by the entire outfit fills a meter that enables a strike when full.

Tsunami

2012-07-05, 10:40 PM

Make OS an outfit perk. Experience earned by the entire outfit fills a meter that enables a strike when full.

I like this idea

StumpyTheOzzie

2012-07-05, 10:53 PM

That promotes massive zerg outfits. You may as well use an empire wide metric.

Vamp Hunter

2012-07-05, 11:21 PM

I don't like orbital strikes, they just seem like a cheep kill. I think players should have to use teamwork and air support instead.

Bravix

2012-07-05, 11:26 PM

You can only use 1 OS per year. Yayy problem sovled :D

Blackwolf

2012-07-05, 11:34 PM

To me the os is kind of an i win button. Like the op said hours of work by quite a few people wiped out not through superior gameplay or strategy but with the i win button. I dont like it in ps1 and hopefully its better balanced in ps2.

I hate to say it but using the OS to wipe out that target was strategy. From the sounds of it, the VS were freaking retarded for creating such a perfect target to be blown apart.

Yes the OSes can get annoying, and there will never be a perfect way to control them. But they are an asset and wise use of that asset is just as justifiable as "a large team's" so call hours of hard work.

Look at the situation. It took the VS hours to secure the beach at a battle. It should have taken the masters of water warfare minutes, not hours. They can field a battalion of hover tanks and flank the enemy with ease.

Second, they set themselves up in a fortified position. Sounds like they weren't making any progress at all beyond their little beach head. It was "effective for awhile" before it got blown apart, the mistake is that they kept it in one place, didn't advance their lines, and never pushed their advantage. They were stagnating the battle and a couple of higher ranked players decided to end it with a pair of OS strikes.

Crator

2012-07-05, 11:37 PM

Yes the OSes can get annoying, and there will never be a perfect way to control them. But they are an asset and wise use of that asset is just as justifiable as "a large team's" so call hours of hard work.

I disagree, just give me an OS force shield (allows blocking of one OS) to cert into. With that at least ya gotta waste two OS on me now and would give me an opportunity to perhaps get out of the area 1st. Plus would require more strategy in performing a successful OS if you require two people to take the target out.

Blackwolf

2012-07-05, 11:44 PM

I disagree, just give me an OS force shield (allows blocking of one OS) to cert into. With that at least ya gotta waste two OS on me now and would give me an opportunity to perhaps get out of the area 1st. Plus would require more strategy in performing a successful OS if you require two people to take the target out.

No.

First off, you are taking it too personally. The OS isn't aimed at just you. Secondly if you can't get out of the area in time with a 3 second warning, you suck and are outta luck.

Never had trouble with OSes as a grunt unless my brain was slower to react and I starting moving too late to do anything, or I was in the exact center of a CR5 OS. It's not that difficult.

Finally, why should anyone waste 2 OSes on you? A bullet to the head will kill you just as easily. It's not like you are immortal and the only thing that can kill you is a giant freaking laser beam from the sky.

Draz

2012-07-06, 12:21 AM

That promotes massive zerg outfits. You may as well use an empire wide metric.

You would still only get one OS at a time so while a zerg outfit would get theirs recharged faster you would have less overall OSs if your entire faction were in one outfit. Plus good luck deciding who gets to fire the OS if you have an empire wide metric.

moosepoop

2012-07-06, 12:40 AM

make orbital strike require several leaders to paint the area at the same time. take more time before it strikes so enemies get more time to get away.

this way os is not used for killwhoring, its used for area denial and to break stalemates, forcing enemy to move, plus requiring cooperation to enable its activation.

vVRedOctoberVv

2012-07-06, 01:58 AM

I just recently started playing Planetside 1... OS are fairly common, especially in hotly contested areas, but I hardly consider them "game breakers". If they're "breaking" an assault then it's a poorly planned one, likewise for a defense (they can't hurt you if you're indoors).

That said, to reduce spamming them, the simplest solution as mentioned previously, is probably just to limit OS to the top few individuals (who have to cert for OS, and have to use a console at a specific base). Problem solved. OS will become much less common.

A better solution, combined with the above, limit each faction to x number of strikes within a one hour period, and can only be called every minimum x number of minutes until that limit is reached.

Sledgecrushr

2012-07-06, 01:59 AM

I have an idea for a new cert, Im going to call it mad. The way it works is if you have access to an os and you get nuked it will automatically drop an os on the guy that hit you.

StumpyTheOzzie

2012-07-06, 02:15 AM

I hate to say it but using the OS to wipe out that target was strategy. From the sounds of it, the VS were freaking retarded for creating such a perfect target to be blown apart.

Yes the OSes can get annoying, and there will never be a perfect way to control them. But they are an asset and wise use of that asset is just as justifiable as "a large team's" so call hours of hard work.

Look at the situation. It took the VS hours to secure the beach at a battle. It should have taken the masters of water warfare minutes, not hours. They can field a battalion of hover tanks and flank the enemy with ease.

Second, they set themselves up in a fortified position. Sounds like they weren't making any progress at all beyond their little beach head. It was "effective for awhile" before it got blown apart, the mistake is that they kept it in one place, didn't advance their lines, and never pushed their advantage. They were stagnating the battle and a couple of higher ranked players decided to end it with a pair of OS strikes.

Yes, you're completely right!

Still sucks that many hours of work can be undone with 2 OSes in 30 seconds. Also, coupled with the fact that everyone on the server can cast Orbital Strike now... Well, what's the point grabbing a high value target like an AMS or Lodestar?

I routinely bind myself to the nearest facility and just do AMS runs. Seems that by the time my 5 minute timer is up, the enemy have OSed my AMS and nobody else seems to want to drive one. So in a half hour battle, just my AMSes get OSed 5 times or so and the tower also gets done about 10 times, plus any opportunistic shots to armour columns etc etc.

So within the SOI of a base, there can be 20 OSes in an hour.

I'm not against the OS. I'm against it every 40 seconds.

Knightwyvern

2012-07-06, 02:33 AM

I can't imagine large scale warfare without some kind of artillery option. It's been a key point in warfare for thousands of years; not having it just seems wrong.

Honestly, I'd prefer to have some kind of high skill-cap team based artillery solution in PS2, like field artillery that requires target lazing and is capable of being taken out by a concerted enemy counter attack. However, since we know there won't be such an option at least at launch, I'm ok with OS as long as they are well balanced resource wise and are somewhat difficult to land effectively. Perhaps give them a CoF?

Furret

2012-07-06, 02:49 AM

The problem with the current OS is this:
/who cr5 all returns 80+ entries. If everyone uses their OS every three hours, thats one OS ever 4-5 minutes.

1) Reduce the number of players who are allowed to use an OS
2) Make it more difficult to successfully launch one.

1.
-Resource requirement?
-Outfit Leader exp bar?
-Platoon Leader exp bar?
-Cooldown modifications (The OS mothership can only launch an OS once every 30 minutes, and personal strikes take 24 hours on cooldown.)

2. OS's are inaccurate (say anywhere within 100 m of personal target). This accuracy can be increased by beacons laid down by friendly units. These beacons should be relatively difficult to spot normally, but easy to spot if you're looking for them (blinking light in the ground?). While the beacon is active the OS becomes more and more accurate, until 20 seconds, when it is pinpoint. The OS can be fired at any time during the homing process and does not require a beacon to fire. BEACON LAYER GETS FULL EXPERIENCE FOR ALL KILLS GAINED BY OS, while the OS'er does not. This will hopefully discourage OS use on expendable infantry units, and instead on valuable and expensive targets. OS'er also has the option to choose which beacon he/she wants to use if multiple are available.

p0intman

2012-07-06, 02:59 AM

The art of a good OS consists of a large population of enemies making themselves available in the open with a lack of cover (dumb idea to begin with, as in, footzerging) and hitting them where it hurts, such as to repel an assault on a base. As seen here, it also consists of teamwork on voice comms with cleaning the rest of them up that dodged it:

pg os lol - YouTube

Like others have said, quit whining. If you get hit with an OS and cleaned out, it is because of your own failure making it possible.

Every CR5 and CR4 can OS once every THREE HOURS. The ONLY problem is that the original developers had no plan for what to do with it years down the line when everyone has one, and that useless zerglings whine about it without really knowing wtf they're talking about.

Saying it negates hours of organisation is fucking stupid and self reveals you to not know wtf you're talking about.

Stew

2012-07-06, 03:06 AM

Did you ever play PS1 in the later years of the game? While it doesn't give an overall win, it seriously delays the battles. This is not as much of a problem as of late since there's so many people on that can just replace OSed AMSes easily. It was a pretty big time delay issue with battles when there wasn't as many people but the people that did play all had the OS. Seemed to cause a major back-n-forth effect in the battles...

Dont have play Ps1 since 2007

All figth are always all about Back and forth effect !

And ive seen also few orbital strike use in Ps1 after ive quit playing it and its nothing that impressive and Far to be a win button push ;)

Killing even 10 guys is a single strike dont turn the battle ! lol

Also on planetside 2 scale level 10 guys is nothing, if they died they will be back really quicker than what you are use to in planetside 1 !

The usual (( hang out )) of planetside 1 will be gone in Planetside 2 it will be a viseral back and forth figth all the time !

Its a WAR not a pic-nic !

Kezz

2012-07-06, 04:06 AM

First off, you are taking it too personally. The OS isn't aimed at just you.
Yes, yes it is. I've been OSed for holding up a gate "rush" by a hack team. There weren't any other defenders on the ground in the area, according to my minimap. I've been OSed for being a nuisance with a wall turret.

Secondly if you can't get out of the area in time with a 3 second warning, you suck and are outta luck.
They got me because I was using a turret or an abandoned driverless vehicle and couldn't dismount and get out of the radius in time.

Finally, why should anyone waste 2 OSes on you? A bullet to the head will kill you just as easily. It's not like you are immortal and the only thing that can kill you is a giant freaking laser beam from the sky.
Unless they're infantry and you're in an armoured vehicle and they have no options for attacking you with AV from cover without getting shot to dogmeat.

I feel like I'm getting somewhere when I get GZ OSed (by the other side) for being a pain in the butt.

Sure, using every tool available is good military practice. The problem is when everyone has such a tool and feels they can use it on what ought to be trivial annoyances (I'm completely rubbish, BTW. My lifetime K/D is tending towards infinitessimal).

MCYRook

2012-07-06, 06:02 AM

Killing even 10 guys is a single strike dont turn the battle ! lol
No, but killing the one courtyard AMS from which they're swarming your base and which you otherwise wouldn't get to does.

Does this really need explaining? :rolleyes:

Crator

2012-07-06, 10:46 AM

It's Stew! Yes, yes it does need explaining.

Stew

2012-07-06, 11:52 AM

No, but killing the one courtyard AMS from which they're swarming your base and which you otherwise wouldn't get to does.

Does this really need explaining? :rolleyes:

Actually poor tactics deserve to be destroys if your team mates are dumb enough to deploy a galaxie or a sunderer directly in the point of view of the enemy So be it you gonna be destroy thats why you have to use your brain while deploying thats sort of thing !

Also the orbital stike will be at 95 % useless for most people !

Not all strike Pay off and those will probably cost a lotsss of ressources ;) so iam not worried at all , only if those are spammable and useable every 2 seconds ill be worried !

Anyway to fix this the orbital strike have to be limited in the empire or in each zone Like in MAG if someones use a strikes their is a contdown timer bar to limited its use in the same team ,sometime it lead to frustration when a idiots call it in the middle of nowhere and you miss your chance to use it well , but its a trade off to not have people spamming those all around the map ;)

Tatwi

2012-07-06, 12:09 PM

alright how about $50

lol...

From the sounds of it, the VS were freaking retarded for creating such a perfect target to be blown apart.

Look at the situation. It took the VS hours to secure the beach at a battle. It should have taken the masters of water warfare minutes, not hours. They can field a battalion of hover tanks and flank the enemy with ease.

Second, they set themselves up in a fortified position. Sounds like they weren't making any progress at all beyond their little beach head.

You weren't there, so I can't fault you for your assumptions. However, what you're not understanding is,

1. When the entire NC faction is playing Cyssorside, it's pretty hard to take Leza.

2. Many of us at the Leza battle just got back from taking Igaluk back from the TR on Ceryshen, hence the long bridge/tower battle at Leza.

3. We had to split our population between Cyssorside and the TR meatginder happening on Searhus or face losing both maps.

4. The orbital strikes that took out our two beach locations (that were spread out by about 500m) happened at the same time and only after we had pushed back the NC armor into Leza and we were primed to finish off their BFRs and take the tower outside of Leza. One more round of repairs and we would have had that tower surrounded. However, without repairs and with a flail blasting away at our vehicle spawn at Tore, by the time we could get back to Leza, the NC had their defensive perimeter back up around the tower and bridge, putting the fight back at square 1. And that's when a lot of VS logged out. Personally, I sat half asleep in a turret at Tore for another 45 minutes until I got 91 assists. Was hoping for an even 100, but sleep was needed! :)

5. A lot of us were on the ground repairing vehicles manually as well to get them back out faster. I imagine that's what the Lode pilots were doing which prevented them from taking off in the 3 second warning.

Anyhow, it was not as cut and dry as you'd imagine. We had people in all vehicle types and support roles trying to crack that nut and we did, briefly. If the repair depot had been taken out by Libs and Reavers, (or even a flail) that would have been cool, because it would have been a team effort, but that's not how it went down.

OSes are a problem when they're:
a) too easy to use
and/or
b) so common that you're prepared to use them on trivial annoyances.

Either would be unfortunate. The situation in PS1, where both apply, is kinda ridiculous.

This is true.

I think orbital strikes should require that you SET THEM UP. For anyone who's played C&C renegade, you know what I mean - someone goes in, plants a beacon of some sort, defends said beacon, and goes down with the ship, or something like that.

That's a much more reasonable game play mechanic for a game like Planetside 2, than PS1's design. If OS will be in PS2, this is what I am hoping it will be like. However, I'd prefer straight up artillery pieces, simply because they can be countered through team game play.

There's been some great discussion in this thread. Thanks for keeping it civil and constructive!

Raka Maru

2012-07-06, 12:29 PM

Won't OS's be used only by the commander class in PS2? That will radically reduce the spamming by any grunt wanting to activate one.

When I got back in PS1 for the free time, I got killed twice in an hour. Both by OS. I don't see commanders using OS's haphazardly when they cost resources.

There is no fair way to limit them by empire timer. Some jerk can just release one right when it becomes available. I think giving it to the commander, with timer and resource cost, it should be balanced in PS2.

p0intman

2012-07-06, 12:31 PM

lol...

You weren't there, so I can't fault you for your assumptions. However, what you're not understanding is,

1. When the entire NC faction is playing Cyssorside, it's pretty hard to take Leza.

2. Many of us at the Leza battle just got back from taking Igaluk back from the TR on Ceryshen, hence the long bridge/tower battle at Leza.

3. We had to split our population between Cyssorside and the TR meatginder happening on Searhus or face losing both maps.

4. The orbital strikes that took out our two beach locations (that were spread out by about 500m) happened at the same time and only after we had pushed back the NC armor into Leza and we were primed to finish off their BFRs and take the tower outside of Leza. One more round of repairs and we would have had that tower surrounded. However, without repairs and with a flail blasting away at our vehicle spawn at Tore, by the time we could get back to Leza, the NC had their defensive perimeter back up around the tower and bridge, putting the fight back at square 1. And that's when a lot of VS logged out. Personally, I sat half asleep in a turret at Tore for another 45 minutes until I got 91 assists. Was hoping for an even 100, but sleep was needed! :)

5. A lot of us were on the ground repairing vehicles manually as well to get them back out faster. I imagine that's what the Lode pilots were doing which prevented them from taking off in the 3 second warning.

Anyhow, it was not as cut and dry as you'd imagine. We had people in all vehicle types and support roles trying to crack that nut and we did, briefly. If the repair depot had been taken out by Libs and Reavers, (or even a flail) that would have been cool, because it would have been a team effort, but that's not how it went down.

This is true.

That's a much more reasonable game play mechanic for a game like Planetside 2, than PS1's design. If OS will be in PS2, this is what I am hoping it will be like. However, I'd prefer straight up artillery pieces, simply because they can be countered through team game play.

There's been some great discussion in this thread. Thanks for keeping it civil and constructive!

you provided a target that was causing problems for the NC, someone spotted it and took them out - plain and simple. Don't tell me that the VS wouldn't do similar. You would. It doesn't negate gameplay, it prolongs it.

Tatwi

2012-07-06, 12:44 PM

you provided a target that was causing problems for the NC, someone spotted it and took them out - plain and simple. Don't tell me that the VS wouldn't do similar. You would. It doesn't negate gameplay, it prolongs it.

That's 100% not the point.

The point is that the game play mechanic of Planetside's Orbital Strike can, in an instant, negate hours of team play, without any threat to the side using the OS or any team play involved with using the OS. Also, there isn't any team game play involved in countering the PS1 OS game play mechanic (moving out of the way is not what I would consider compelling team game play).

So the TL;DR version of "the point" is: The game play mechanic of Planetside's Orbital Strike seems contrary to the "strategic teamwork (http://www.planetside2.com/overview)" spirit of Planetside 2.

Nasher

2012-07-06, 12:54 PM

They should leave orbital strikes out of PS2 TBH. It was a broken mechanic in the first game. Or at least give it a 1 hour+ cooldown, which is faction wide for that continent.

It was basically an I-win button in PS1. Especially when it killed people/vehicles behind cover and there was no counter to it.

Crator

2012-07-06, 12:58 PM

This is fairly old info but it's still in the PS2 Info Thread (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=37350). So guess it still applies:

• How will the Command System function? Commanding is not based on command rank like in Planetside. Rather commanding is based upon a cert tree within all of the other certifications. In order to be a deeply specialized commander you need to give up some other perks. Also, squad leaders and commanders will be able to create “missions (think quests from an RPG) that average players can follow in order to receive bonus experience. The orbital strike is making a return.

Gonefshn

2012-07-06, 12:59 PM

OS was fun and helps break stalemates of footzerg.

The game needs it just for the sake of epic boom and dakka.

p0intman

2012-07-06, 01:31 PM

That's 100% not the point.

The point is that the game play mechanic of Planetside's Orbital Strike can, in an instant, negate hours of team play, without any threat to the side using the OS or any team play involved with using the OS. Also, there isn't any team game play involved in countering the PS1 OS game play mechanic (moving out of the way is not what I would consider compelling team game play).

So the TL;DR version of "the point" is: The game play mechanic of Planetside's Orbital Strike seems contrary to the "strategic teamwork (http://www.planetside2.com/overview)" spirit of Planetside 2.
You weren't trying hard enough. Sorry, No points for second place. The fact it took you "hours" to establish that beach head is amazing, it should have been done fairly quickly, half hour at most.

And because you continue to complain, it is my mission this week in PS1 to be as massive of a pain to the VS as I can be.

Hamma

2012-07-06, 08:21 PM

p0intman,

Let's try and be a bit more constructive in our replies mkay.

Pillar of Armor

2012-07-06, 08:54 PM

In the early days of PS1 the OS was cool because it was pretty rare to see people using them. Now, every battle you always need to keep moving because you can expect 10+ OSes in a single fight. As long as they are very hard to get (1-2 years of certs) and as long as you can't use them very often (once every 24-48 hours) I think they would be fine in PS2.

I would definitively argue that OSes interfere with teamwork. Squads and platoons are much more effective when they are tightly grouped than when they are scattered. That is what made the Romans so effective and I saw it in action the other night. We had a column of tanks and we were clustered around the south CY entrance at Ixtab. We were dominating for a while until three OSes sent us running or destroyed us. After that, our attack was watered down because we were all spread out. We lost a lot of ground because of a few people pressing the easy win button. The OS seriously punishes squads that are coordinated like we were.

Kezz

2012-07-07, 02:58 AM

I would definitively argue that OSes interfere with teamwork. Squads and platoons are much more effective when they are tightly grouped than when they are scattered.
That is half the point of artillery and the entire point the squad tactics developed to mitigate that, as arty got better.

GreatMazinkaise

2012-07-07, 03:06 AM

That is half the point of artillery and the entire point the squad tactics developed to mitigate that, as arty got better.

Exactly... #1 rule of miniatures games is to avoid clumping your troops, and this applies in equally well in any game where there's lots of AoE insta-death weapons.

MCYRook

2012-07-07, 04:16 AM

Except you absolutely can't avoid clumping troops in a large base fight in PS1. With the base layout in PS2, it may get a little better, but you still have vital, out-in-the-open spawnpoints that will be just as juicy targets as AMSes were in PS1. More juicy even, what with so many more players around.

And I'll say again: "Just put a very long cooldown on it, then it's fine" - no, it's not. It's just bad design. There's no reason for anyone to have something with an effort-to-reward ratio as low as an OS - not once in three hours, and not once in three days.

I REALLY hope the OS will get a serious redesign for PS2. :rolleyes:

LordReaver

2012-07-07, 05:26 AM

LordReaver: -=Warning=- OS Target, Spread Out!
LordReaver: -=Warning=- OS Target, Spread Out!
LordReaver: -=Warning=- OS Target, Spread Out!
LordReaver: -=Warning=- OS Target, Spread Out!

fvdham

2012-07-07, 05:34 AM

I don't have a problem with OS.
I have a problem with OS being tied to Command Rank.
I don't want to see people play commander just to get the biggest gun the game.
The only reason to play commander should be victory.

Kezz

2012-07-07, 08:52 AM

I don't want to see people play commander just to get the biggest gun the game.
This is certainly a valid concern, if PS1 is anything to go by. The number of people with OS is certainly far higher than the number of people posting useful stuff in Command Chat.

GhettoPrince

2012-07-07, 09:34 AM

Well, back when the game was in its prime an OS was really rare, but now there are just so many CR5's that every single tower, base and front line fight will get hit by multiple orbital strikes, you literally can not go half an hour without seeing one.

I think it would be useful to limit OS's to one per hex , with a timer to keep them from being used again in that hex anytime soon, so you don't just get base defenses blasted with walking orbital strikes.

Alternatively, a massive resource cost.

Kezz

2012-07-07, 09:51 AM

I think it would be useful to limit OS's to one per hex...
Yeah. One per hex per would be good. Per hex, so large battlefields have room for more than one. There has to be some sort of handwave that lets each [i]side have one per hex, though, or the first thing someone will do is let rip with an OS, just to deny the opportunity for the other side to use theirs.

Alternatively, a massive resource cost.
In the same way a large cert cost isn't really a deterrent because people will always get more cert points, a large resource cost isn't going to stop people over using it. They'll have to set the "economy" up so that a "casual scrub" isn't scraping their last Auraxium together to buy a grenade, which means that the "srs bsns" players and outfits will have resources coming out their ears. It'll reduce the pool of users, but with the populations we're looking at,"hot" zones will have pillars of light everywhere.

Klockan

2012-07-07, 10:02 AM

Make OS cost something like 150 of the tank resource, aircraft resource and transport resource so that no matter what vehicles you like it will hurt a lot. Then basically you could have bought 2 tanks, 2 aircrafts and a large transport instead of the orbital strike, so the only ones to use it are players who aren't wasteful with their resources. Then it doesn't need to have a large cooldown, maybe have a regional cooldown as mentioned above at about 30 seconds (similar to the queue system for vehicles) so you cant have a large team just blanketing the whole area with them.

Sledgecrushr

2012-07-07, 10:23 AM

OS is a dumb idea and I cant believe they are bringing it back. But I am looking forward to see how the devs are going to make this thing work.

Crator

2012-07-07, 11:49 AM

I think it would be useful to limit OS's to one per hex , with a timer to keep them from being used again in that hex anytime soon, so you don't just get base defenses blasted with walking orbital strikes.

One per hex, with timer, I like that!

Buggsy

2012-07-07, 05:31 PM

OS was horrible in PS1, and it does destroy tactics.

I hated the EMP OS even more. I hate the way someone can push a button and destroy all of my deployables I spent 5 minutes setting up. In fact that's why I quit PS1 ~5 years ago.

StumpyTheOzzie

2012-07-08, 04:09 AM

Graywolves

2012-07-08, 04:29 AM

If a team is bunched up on top of each other and spending 10 minutes figuring out what to do then I think that OS is more than deserving. I enjoy moving with a sense of urgency and specifically being aware of areas that look like a juicy OS target.

Kezz

2012-07-08, 05:42 AM

I like the thought of a commander thinking "I *COULD* OS that F.O.B. or I could pay for half a dozen vanguards and a bunch of reavers to attack it instead"

But I doubt if you can gift resources to other players so he'll totally end up osing. Is there an option for an outfit tax like in Eve? That was a stroke of genius that.

Yeah, Higby (or someone from SOE; I think it was Matt) said you won't be able to give other people vehicles you've pulled, to stop a high cert player handing out tricked-out vehicles to low-cert buddies.

Whether there will be any way to transfer raw resources between players, I don't think I've seen any mention of.

It would be good if an Outfit could have a pool of resources that members were able to draw from to grab "stuff", with, I guess, rights to do so determined by the Outfit chief, probably using the Outfit ranks. If it did have that, the better way to do it would be a "bonus percentage" of everything the Outfit's members earn gets added to the Outfit's coffers, without being taken from the member's income. I think this is a better approach for an accessible game; the uninitiated tend to balk at paying taxes in-game for potentially nebulous benefits and that would be an unnecessary barrier to Outfit recruitment.

There seems to me (though I'm not entirely sure where I got the conclusion from) to be an assumption that collected resources will contribute to some sort of Empire pool, though I don't think it's clear quite what that might be used for.

Pillar of Armor

2012-07-08, 09:10 AM

Exactly... #1 rule of miniatures games is to avoid clumping your troops, and this applies in equally well in any game where there's lots of AoE insta-death weapons.

What it ultimately comes down to is gameplay: Do you think it's more fun to run shoulder to shoulder with your squad and be able to feel and see the effect of your teamwork without worrying about being OSed, or is it more fun to have an instakill weapon and at the cost of having the ability to fight side by side.

My problem with it is: OSes are fun for one moment every hour or so, but teamwork is fun for as long as you can keep it up. Fighting within close range of your squad or allies gives you a strong sense that you are working as a team and makes it apparent that the scale really is massive. Fighting when your scattered just feels like deathmatch.

That's how I feel about it anyway.