Battle Rifle for Heavy Assault [Archive]

OutlawDr

2012-07-06, 03:18 AM

It's funny how so many people are against "quickscoping" snipers who put 4x scopes on their long range semi auto rifles, and yet when a fundamentally similar idea is presented as a "battle rifle," it's the best idea ever.

Im not sure what your definition of quickscoping is. AFAIK its when there is near instant ADS and sometimes a bit of crosshair lock-on. Combined it allows for people to run around using long range weapons like shotguns.

If HA has the answer for any range, it lessens the motive for using the other classes in infantry combat. It makes more sense to keep the long range weapons in the hands of classes that are not meant to be in the thick of a firefight, taking a lot of damage.

Don't get me wrong, I'm ok with battle rifles; in fact, they are probably my favorite weapon type. However, it seems to me that it would be a more natural addition to the Medic class perhaps.

The way I see it.. the HA is the premiere, workhorse trooper. Its not too strange that the class has a tool for most ranges. LA is the vanguard. MAX is the shock trooper. Infiltrator is scout/assassin/sniper. Engineer is support, repair and utility. Combat medic is the ..ehh the medic. I don't see how HA having long range diminishes any of the other classes roles. In fact as it stands, many people are questioning the HA's usefulness due to it being so similar to a MAX. Having a battlerifle allows it to distinguish itself further from the max..

If any other class should get it based on your criteria its the engineer (and infiltrator of course). A good medic is going to be upfront laying down aegis shields and reviving people when they can. However if the engineer gets one more thing I think the forums will explode.

Sabot

2012-07-06, 03:43 AM

2-stage trigger... first pull fires a single shot, second pull is full auto. Gives high accuracy in suppressive weapons, as the first shot (if not a hit) will make targets duck and cover, then the rain comes.

Canaris

2012-07-06, 03:46 AM

ooohh nice spot Outlaw, as they say in Russia "wery interesting" :D
BR variants for the assault rifles, HA is going to be great.

Coreldan

2012-07-06, 04:02 AM

That said, they have mentioned the existance of semi-auto rifles that fall between assault rifles and snipers a long time ago, but last time I heard I think they were confirmed to be for infiltrators mostly.

Xyntech

2012-07-06, 04:55 AM

Pretty cool. Sounds like it would be a lot of fun to use. First thing I've seen that's really gotten me interested in the HA class

Erendil

2012-07-06, 06:52 AM

So I posted this in the wiki section, but I don't think anyone reads anything down there.

I was watching the totalbiscuit videos(...again :doh:), and I came across a very interesting weapon. Its a primary weapon taken by Heavy Assault, but its not really a LMG. The in-game description pegs it as a long range rifle.

"The versatile Flare VE6P's single shot firing mode gives the user the ability to pick off long-range targets".

Go to minute 47:35.
Day 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xcmHYuUbn0)

This doesn't paint the picture of a high RoF, low accuracy weapon we associate with the LMG. I think this constitutes as a completely different weapon type for HA. Its not a sniper rifle, and not an assault rifle. I'm calling it a battle rifle for now. :rock:

Note that its stat bars don't seem to match the description. This is probably untidy alpha values that will be corrected later.

Yeeahhhh, this definitely did not escape my attention. :cool: I actually stumbled across the same piece of footage yesterday when hunting down the decent Light Assault footage that takes place 1 minute after that (~48:30) to show some outfitmates.

I'm at work right now so I can't watch the clip, but IIRC the player they were specing didn't actually *click* on the rifle, he just moused over it, so the weapon stats shown were still for whatever other rifle he had selected. So here's hoping for lower RoF, high accuracy, and high damage! :D Can you say, "M14?" :D GIMMEGIMMEGIMME

I remember pushing a couple of times to get ES Battle Rifles introduced for PS1 but few people seemed interested. I'm psyched it looks like they're gonna make an appearance in PS2...! Can't wait to try it out!

Im not sure what your definition of quickscoping is. AFAIK its when there is near instant ADS and sometimes a bit of crosshair lock-on. Combined it allows for people to run around using long range weapons like shotguns.

The way I see it.. the HA is the premiere, workhorse trooper. Its not too strange that the class has a tool for most ranges. LA is the vanguard. MAX is the shock trooper. Infiltrator is scout/assassin/sniper. Engineer is support, repair and utility. Combat medic is the ..ehh the medic. I don't see how HA having long range diminishes any of the other classes roles. In fact as it stands, many people are questioning the HA's usefulness due to it being so similar to a MAX. Having a battlerifle allows it to distinguish itself further from the max..

If any other class should get it based on your criteria its the engineer (and infiltrator of course). A good medic is going to be upfront laying down aegis shields and reviving people when they can. However if the engineer gets one more thing I think the forums will explode.

Pretty much my thoughts too. Thanks for saving me on some typing. Although I'd think a battle rifle might fit Light Assault more than Engie with their ability to get to high perches and such. And Engies already have turrets for long range work. :)

Karrade

2012-07-06, 07:38 AM

It's funny how so many people are against "quickscoping" snipers who put 4x scopes on their long range semi auto rifles, and yet when a fundamentally similar idea is presented as a "battle rifle," it's the best idea ever.

If HA has the answer for any range, it lessens the motive for using the other classes in infantry combat. It makes more sense to keep the long range weapons in the hands of classes that are not meant to be in the thick of a firefight, taking a lot of damage.

Don't get me wrong, I'm ok with battle rifles; in fact, they are probably my favorite weapon type. However, it seems to me that it would be a more natural addition to the Medic class perhaps.

The funny thing is from my perspective, while you are thinking the HA is the most powerful because it is the most versatile, I think the opposite for teamplay :). The most powerful is the most specialised. - That is either the difference between a Solo Player and a Team Player mindset or just the completely different way we approach the game. HA Badly needs something to make it worthwhile in teamplay, this rifle may make it worth it.

Accuser

2012-07-06, 08:13 AM

Although I'd think a battle rifle might fit Light Assault more than Engie with their ability to get to high perches and such. And Engies already have turrets for long range work. :)
No... that's exactly why LA shouldn't have a long-range battle rifle.

I think it's fine for HA to have the option of taking the single-shot battle rifle. HA seems to have little utility with less health and firepower than a MAX, so giving them more options to spawn with seems fine.

Though since the Engi has good range with the turret, the LA can maneuver to the enemy easily, and now the HA has a long range battle rifle... it would be nice to see something similar for Medics, who'll likely be standing behind the HAs anyway!

Dacrim

2012-07-06, 08:17 AM

sounds awesome! just the type of gun i like!

No... that's exactly why LA shouldn't have a long-range battle rifle.

I think it's fine for HA to have the option of taking the single-shot battle rifle. HA seems to have little utility with less health and firepower than a MAX, so giving them more options to spawn with seems fine.

Though since the Engi has good range with the turret, the LA can maneuver to the enemy easily, and now the HA has a long range battle rifle... it would be nice to see something similar for Medics, who'll likely be standing behind the HAs anyway!

i agree completely

Sempars

2012-07-06, 08:40 AM

Rbstr

2012-07-06, 10:34 AM

I figure LA can get the 4 or 6 power scope for whatever they're using anyway when you consider that you can swap out scopes however you like. That doesn't mean they will be effective at those ranges.

I like the battle rifle as a cross-class weapon available for HA, Eng and Medic. Even LA and infiltrators might be able to use it. It depends on what kind of range and damage the gun really has and what LA/infils can do to their specific weapons.

I'd say that it's not actually a heavy assault weapon, it gives HA an option for longer range, besides the LMG, even though it might be "underpowered" compared to the other weapons the class has.

Erendil

2012-07-06, 11:01 AM

Yes I totally agree also. IF LA's get a battle rifle with 4 or 6 power scope, they will just jump to a high building and turn into snipers. Im pretty sure thats not what their role is suppose to be. I can See LA being like a StarShip Tropper that jumps around and does quick attacks and gets out. (book verson)

I don't get it. To the 3 posters before Rbstr: Why would you not want to give a weapon to the LA class that plays to its strengths (mobility) while at the same time encouraging him to avoid engaging the enemy where he's weakest (up close)? I can assure you that a LA up on a perch with a scoped battle rifle is not going to become this invincible uber-sniper bagging enemies with impunity from amongst the hapless enemy soldiers below.

If he's out of assault rifle range he can still be out-sniped by enemy infils. If he has enough cover from ground forces that they can't countersnipe, you can send your own LA troops up to flush him out while providing suppressive fire to keep him pinned down.

And no matter how high he jets, or how secure his perch, he can still be mulched by enemy vehicles. :cool: Whether it's tank shells lobbed on top of him from 500m, ES Fighters swooping in from above, or Libs pummeling his perch from the flight ceiling, he will always be a much smaller fish.

And if need be you could always OS him. :D

And who's to say what role LA is "supposed" to have to begin with? An LA's role is whatever the player decides it will be. :p I don't mean to sound harsh, but trying to dictate ahead of time what role(s) a class should or should not have is IMO a recipe for stale and repetitive gameplay and will lead your side in the direction of getting stomped all over by enemy players who don't have such preconceived notions. ;)

A battle rifle sounds to me like a good match for a LA trooper. I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to use one.

NoDachi

2012-07-06, 11:41 AM

No. Light Assault and Battle Rifle are not congruent .

I hate to break your fantasies.

Badjuju

2012-07-06, 11:58 AM

Im not sure what your definition of quickscoping is. AFAIK its when there is near instant ADS and sometimes a bit of crosshair lock-on. Combined it allows for people to run around using long range weapons like shotguns.

The way I see it.. the HA is the premiere, workhorse trooper. Its not too strange that the class has a tool for most ranges. LA is the vanguard. MAX is the shock trooper. Infiltrator is scout/assassin/sniper. Engineer is support, repair and utility. Combat medic is the ..ehh the medic. I don't see how HA having long range diminishes any of the other classes roles. In fact as it stands, many people are questioning the HA's usefulness due to it being so similar to a MAX. Having a battlerifle allows it to distinguish itself further from the max..

If any other class should get it based on your criteria its the engineer (and infiltrator of course). A good medic is going to be upfront laying down aegis shields and reviving people when they can. However if the engineer gets one more thing I think the forums will explode.

This

Sifer2

2012-07-06, 01:56 PM

Interesting as I had been suggesting they add such a weapon in other threads. Though I suggested also that only such low rate of fire weapons be able to get headshots. Just so the gameplay isn't so random an spammy like it was in the E3 build. Nice to know they already included something like it.

Erendil

2012-07-06, 03:26 PM

No. Light Assault and Battle Rifle are not congruent .

I hate to break your fantasies.

Why? Do you have any specific reasoning beyond just "Durrrr because Light sounds weak and a Battle rifle is like, tough...?" :p

Light Assault <> Weak Assault.

This is how I see it. Light infantry (which in my mind are synonymous w/ LA troops) are often used by armed forces as forward detachments to scout ahead, probe enemy lines, start light skirmishes and cause chaos and confusion behind enemy lines and amongst enemy ranks. They are also used at the flanks and perimeters of FOBs because their high mobility gives them the flexibility to spread out and get into position quickly, as well as fall back quickly should they encounter a heavy enemy presence.

And when the shit hits the fan they *do* participate in large battles, but generally at the periphery just beyond the main point of contact, providing hit and run tactics, covering fire, and other types of distraction to keep the enemy off-guard and, well, distracted ;) so the Heavy Infantry can move forward unharassed towards their objective.

But the vast majority of the above tactics will want to be done either with great stealth so they're not seen (which n PS2 is covered by the infil), great speed since they don't have the staying power of HA troops and so they can get in and out before the enemy can react, or from a great distance since they lack the armour and up-close firepower that HA troops possess, which in PS2 would be HA weapons, AV, and LMGs.

They can already get the great speed with their jumpjets. Their flashbangs and smoke give them some nice distraction ability. And a battle rifle would give them the accurate, long-distance harassing and covering ability that they need without turning them into snipers with jumpjets and without handing them LMGs for suppression.

Malorn

2012-07-06, 03:35 PM

Knightwyvern

2012-07-06, 04:00 PM

The fire modes still list it as "automatic, automatic", though either the tooltip or the fire mode text could be wrong.

The TR HA had a similar more long-range LMG that I saw in the videos who's tooltip mentioned it being the most accurate sustained fire LMG for long ranges. Not a battle rifle, but a LMG designed for more long range. The one listed above could be the VS equivalent, which may have an optional semi-auto mode as part of the faction differences, while the TR one might not but have better sustained firing accuracy at long range. Giving the VS a semi-auto one makes sense if the empire trait is accuracy.

I would expect the TR infiltrator's sniper rifle (semi-auto) with a red dot sight would be a pretty good battle rifle.

I know it's a bit knitpicky but honestly, the idea of a long barreled weapon being short range kind of drives me crazy. LMG should all be on the high end of the range spectrum, with the recoil being the stumbling block over which HA should tread. Obviously, a long range, high RoF weapon would also be pretty nasty at medium and close ranges as well. Add onto that the (presumably) extreme close range effectiveness of HA weapons such as the MCG, and the AV power of rockets/missiles, and the HA class could be a bit of a monster.

It's not uncommon practice to stick a 3.4x optic on an LMG and use it for mid-long range suppression; LMG being short range seems a bit too "gamey" to me.

Erendil

2012-07-06, 04:14 PM

OutlawDr

2012-07-06, 05:56 PM

Did anyone see that looks like you cant carry 2 primary weapons anymore? First time I seen this or heard of this.

The MAX is the only class that can technically take two Primary Weapons. However the HA's "tool" option is actually either the anti-AV weapon or the traditional Heavy Assault weapon. So basically it does have 2 primary weapons.

maddoggg

2012-07-06, 06:27 PM

Nice find.
I really love combat rifles in most games :) .
Many people think HA will be weak or useless,but i feel like it's going to be the more versetale class and probably my favorite one :) .

Vorgan

2012-07-06, 07:21 PM

Why? Do you have any specific reasoning beyond just "Durrrr because Light sounds weak and a Battle rifle is like, tough...?" :p

Light Assault <> Weak Assault.

This is how I see it. Light infantry (which in my mind are synonymous w/ LA troops) are often used by armed forces as forward detachments to scout ahead, probe enemy lines, start light skirmishes and cause chaos and confusion behind enemy lines and amongst enemy ranks. They are also used at the flanks and perimeters of FOBs because their high mobility gives them the flexibility to spread out and get into position quickly, as well as fall back quickly should they encounter a heavy enemy presence.

And when the shit hits the fan they *do* participate in large battles, but generally at the periphery just beyond the main point of contact, providing hit and run tactics, covering fire, and other types of distraction to keep the enemy off-guard and, well, distracted ;) so the Heavy Infantry can move forward unharassed towards their objective.

But the vast majority of the above tactics will want to be done either with great stealth so they're not seen (which n PS2 is covered by the infil), great speed since they don't have the staying power of HA troops and so they can get in and out before the enemy can react, or from a great distance since they lack the armour and up-close firepower that HA troops possess, which in PS2 would be HA weapons, AV, and LMGs.

They can already get the great speed with their jumpjets. Their flashbangs and smoke give them some nice distraction ability. And a battle rifle would give them the accurate, long-distance harassing and covering ability that they need without turning them into snipers with jumpjets and without handing them LMGs for suppression.

I totally disagreed with the notion of LA having access to BRs until I read this post; you make some excellent points. Access to a Battle Rifle would certainly give LA the ability to scout and harass heavier enemy infantry from afar before retreating to the safety behind friendly lines. They'd still be ripped to shreds by lashers, MCGs, and JHs, likewise with Engineers' shotguns. At range, they could be outdone by infiltrators sniping, and they'd have the same range as HA with a BR...Pretty hard counters.

Hardly sounds like it'd make LA OP, but it would certainly grant them more flexible and keep that class within reason (so long as they don't get ammo back).

Regardless of LA getting access to BRs, I'm thrilled that they're in the game for HA. Very nicely fleshes out the classes and will hopefully get people to stop asking them to change the JH from a shotgun into a railgun...

OutlawDr

2012-07-06, 09:32 PM

Electrofreak

2012-07-06, 10:05 PM

I don't think giving LA a long range weapon like this is a good idea. If you simply want a weapon to harrass at range, put a scope on a carbine. However giving them a BR with that range plus their mobility makes them much more than a harasser. They turn into flying mini snipers. There is a nice risk/reward gameplay going with LA in the videos. However allowing them to quickly get favorable position and snipe in comfort removes all the risk. As soon as their position is compromised they can fly away to another nest. This turns into a lone wolf's wet dream.

^ This. I came here to post almost exactly the same thing.

Also, I see a lot of excitement in this thread over an incomplete weapon listed under a class that's still a WIP in a game that is still in Alpha.

This is a good thread for discussing the viability of giving certain weapons to certain classes but let's not start counting our chickens.

OutlawDr

2012-07-06, 10:45 PM

^ This. I came here to post almost exactly the same thing.

Also, I see a lot of excitement in this thread over an incomplete weapon listed under a class that's still a WIP in a game that is still in Alpha.

This is a good thread for discussing the viability of giving certain weapons to certain classes but let's not start counting our chickens.

Sure its true, since its alpha things are in flux. But that means we could start doubting EVERYTHING we've seen and heard since technically its all subject-to-change alpha content. I don't want to live in that scarey world.

Antivide

2012-07-07, 03:53 AM

Battle rifles should be given to the Infiltrator. Infiltrator trades power and range for rate of fire and magazine size.

I'm pretty sure the HA weapon detailed in the loadout is just an Alpha placeholder. HA should have LMGs to support their anti-infantry role of suppressive fire.

Regardless I think that's just an Alpha placeholder. It just doesn't make sense from a design standpoint to give the strongest non-mechanized unit a psueod-sniper rifle. That would be stepping into the roles of the Infiltrator.

Infiltrator should be the best at long range, with some adaptability to medium range. And so and so forth.

Accuser

2012-07-07, 06:43 AM

[If you give LA a battle rifle]
They turn into flying mini snipers. There is a nice risk/reward gameplay going with LA in the videos. However allowing them to quickly get favorable position and snipe in comfort removes all the risk. As soon as their position is compromised they can fly away to another nest. This turns into a lone wolf's wet dream.
Exactly.
The Light Assault isn't about positioning, it's about mobility. If LA has a long-range weapon, why would anyone play as a sniping infil? You can get to a MUCH better sniping location with a jetpack than with a part-time cloak.

And if the LA came up against something that could beat him at range (HA or possibly a sniper) he could easily put a wall between him and the enemy to continue LA sniping in a different direction... or just jump to a completely different position. It would be ridiculous.

LA has the ability to outmaneuver the enemy and attack from unexpected directions. It's stupid to give them better sniping opportunities than infil.

Klockan

2012-07-07, 07:11 AM

Regardless I think that's just an Alpha placeholder. It just doesn't make sense from a design standpoint to give the strongest non-mechanized unit a psueod-sniper rifle. That would be stepping into the roles of the Infiltrator.

Why? The infiltrators major feature is his cloak, not his rifle. And it still wont be a sniper rifle, it is just a rifle that can hit target at long ranges. Sniper rifles can 1 hit kill, this lmg can't. 1 hit kill means that they can't hide and heal etc. That is the role of the infiltrator, to sneak around and kill things before they can react, sustained damage is the HA's role.

NoDachi

2012-07-07, 07:22 AM

Indeed. Infiltration and battlerifles are not congruent at all.

Karrade

2012-07-07, 07:44 AM

I don't think giving LA a long range weapon like this is a good idea. If you simply want a weapon to harrass at range, put a scope on a carbine. However giving them a BR with that range plus their mobility makes them much more than a harasser. They turn into flying mini snipers. There is a nice risk/reward gameplay going with LA in the videos. However allowing them to quickly get favorable position and snipe in comfort removes all the risk. As soon as their position is compromised they can fly away to another nest. This turns into a lone wolf's wet dream.

I thought the entire point of the LA was to provide cover. I am not speaking about any one weapon they should have, but how will they provide cover from up high with only short range weapons? With no range they are even less useful.

Kalbuth

2012-07-07, 08:16 AM

I thought the entire point of the LA was to provide cover. I am not speaking about any one weapon they should have, but how will they provide cover from up high with only short range weapons? With no range they are even less useful.

The entire point of a more mobile unit is to attack an ennemy from unexpected angles. Not to provide cover.
Jetpack is for getting out of a pinned down position and get an angle (ie : flank) the ones pinning your troops down.
LA are backrape-ers, a very important tool in FPS

Accuser

2012-07-07, 08:16 AM

I thought the entire point of the LA was to provide cover. I am not speaking about any one weapon they should have, but how will they provide cover from up high with only short range weapons? With no range they are even less useful.
Obviously they aren't designed to provide cover. That's what snipers do. LA get in close, jump behind the enemy, and take out a few enemies with short-range weapons in a blaze of glory, since their armor wont sustain them for long. The jetpack is for surprise and speed. They are PS2's CoD players, compared to the slower movement and heavier weapons of HA and MAXes that are slightly more of PS2's PS1 players.

Giving LA sniper range would make them entirely too dodgey and difficult to kill. Whereas in Alpha, almost any class could kite a MAX, LA-snipers could kite any class. It would make them better snipers than Infiltrators are, and that's just stupid.

Klockan

2012-07-07, 08:24 AM

I thought the entire point of the LA was to provide cover. I am not speaking about any one weapon they should have, but how will they provide cover from up high with only short range weapons? With no range they are even less useful.
They are assault troopers, what do "assault" mean to you? To me it is someone who storms enemy positions, not someone who hangs back and provides cover fire. Heavy assault got more firepower and armor while light assault got more ways to attack the enemy and are overall more agile. If the enemy got an heavily entrenched base then jumping in with 20 light assaults from the back might clear it all out in seconds while 20 heavy assaults walking into the front would just get massacred.

Erendil

2012-07-07, 08:36 AM

Exactly.
The Light Assault isn't about positioning, it's about mobility.

That's YOUR opinion, and a rather limited one at that. LA tactics are about positioning just as much as they are about mobility. Otherwise why give them a jumpjet that let's them go 30 feet in the air? Why not just give them Surge? And why design base maps with so many isolated roofs, catwalks, and cubby holes that only Jumpjets can easily get to?

If LA has a long-range weapon, why would anyone play as a sniping infil?

infils have longer range
They can get to their spot undetected
They can cloak for short period to hid from casual passers-by
1s1k sniper rifles

Hard to say what else since we don't know what other abilities infils have.

You can get to a MUCH better sniping location with a jetpack than with a part-time cloak.

No, with LA you can just get into some sniping locations in a more convenient manner. Infils can get to the exact same spots as LA. They just have to bail from an aircraft, and if they bail from flight ceiling while cloaked they can do so undetected, and with an actual 1s1k sniper rifle. Whereas I'll bet LA troops will get shot out of the air time and time again while enroute to those perches because they are 100% visible while doing so.

And if the LA came up against something that could beat him at range (HA or possibly a sniper) he could easily put a wall between him and the enemy to continue LA sniping in a different direction... or just jump to a completely different position. It would be ridiculous.

If you watch the E3 footage you'll see a number of LA troops get shot out of the air while using their jumpjets. LA troops are not invincible in the air, and they fly in slow, lazy arcs with unchanging, predictable trajecteries.

Oh, and try jump-jetting away from my Scythe sometime. See how well that works for you. :rofl: Remember, combined arms. A smart infil will be able to time that short-duration cloak of his (imperfect as it is) to remain undetected by vehicles passing by, where an LA would get spotted and turned into red mist. :D

LA has the ability to outmaneuver the enemy and attack from unexpected directions. It's stupid to give them better sniping opportunities than infil.

Again, LA will not get better sniping opportunities, only ones under different circumstances. And they can only outmaneuver certain lone enemies, not coordinated teams, nor vehicles.

NoDachi

2012-07-07, 08:46 AM

Klockan

2012-07-07, 08:56 AM

That's YOUR opinion, and a rather limited one at that. LA tactics are about positioning just as much as they are about mobility. Otherwise why give them a jumpjet that let's them go 30 feet in the air? Why not just give them Surge? And why design base maps with so many isolated roofs, catwalks, and cubby holes that only Jumpjets can easily get to?
Those roofs are there to allow the light assault to utilize his 3d mobility, not for him to camp on. Light assault is not a camper, he should constantly be repositioning. And then the light assault still got mid range weaponry which is enough to shoot down from any roof, I don't really see why you would need a sniper to be able to utilize roofs.
No, with LA you can just get into some sniping locations in a more convenient manner. Infils can get to the exact same spots as LA. They just have to bail from an aircraft, and if they bail from flight ceiling while cloaked they can do so undetected, and with an actual 1s1k sniper rifle. Whereas I'll bet LA troops will get shot out of the air time and time again while enroute to those perches because they are 100% visible while doing so.
The jetpack mobility is not about flying around to avoid getting shot, it is about flying around to attack from unexpected angles. If an enemy hides behind a wall then flying on top of the wall to shoot him from above is utilizing his mobility. But as soon as the enemy knows you are there the positions value dwindles so you move on to new positions. Constantly changing positions is mobility and not positioning.

Accuser

2012-07-07, 09:32 AM

Those roofs are there to allow the light assault to utilize his 3d mobility, not for him to camp on. Light assault is not a camper, he should constantly be repositioning.
The class was clearly constructed for this purpose. LA is not designed to be the ultimate camping class and I know that our PS2 devs aren't dumb enough to make such an unbalanced mistake such as that. Even if they were, the ludicrous power that vertical mobility and long range weapon would grant would be quickly extinguished during Beta.

Sharkdog

2012-07-07, 10:36 AM

Wholeheartedly disagree.
As it stands now assault rifles as clearly visible in footage suffer from far less recoil then most shooter games and this is with mostly NC footage having the most recoil.
So with that in mind doing the 3 shot bursts routine for head shots looks highly effective already and I see no problems with LA vs LA battles.

So then what if they get a battle rifle? Mid range single shot battles they now have an advantage why? because they can reposition easier you say?

They are still wearing hospital gowns for armor, and that is the trade off for their mobility.
Yes they will be able to find high points etc. and such, so what.
In a map that LONG range is preferable you already admit you should be using an infiltrator.
In a long range map you have little obstacles by default or it would not be a long range map and you would be better of with an assault rifle, to top that off you will more then likely be dealing with vehicular combat on long stretches.

So what is the real scenario?? Having a battle-rifle will keep LA competitive in spaced out maps.
They wont have anti vehicle weapons, closest thing will be charges for ground vehicles.
What do you end up with is a more well rounded LA with a higher skill trade off with the only real advantage being more accuracy at the higher end of medium ranges and a definite trade off at close quarters.
Also note that battle-rifles will have no synergy with shooting mid air, that said the repositioning thing is being blown way out of proportion.
Jump jets are slow as molasses in winter, it has nothing to do with the speed of it JUST where they can be and as mentioned before assault rifles are quite snipey already at mid ranges.
Is having someone sneaking around on a rooftop intimidating to me? Hell no, not when I have a damage absorption shield, much more health in general, higher caliber weapons at my disposal and hey back up from my medic and my engineer.

Getting on a rooftop might be OMGZZ to some but it also excludes people from all the support mechanisms the game has to offer and being there alone is already a high risk vs reward decision.
And with so many roles in the game all made to adapt to the battlefield, anyone really have to think about a bunch of LA being annoying with mid range weapons on some peak no one can reach??
There really isn't enough versatility to deal with that especially since they are one of the classes that can be one shotted by an infiltrator?
No, if anything giving LA battle-rifles it will be more motivation to play infiltrators or hey even a HA with some cover and a battle-rifle as well.

What I do believe to be misbalanced is the HA not having a resupply case I find LA (only) an odd choice over the pillars of squad battles
Their high mobility and constant movement make them less then ideal to be the steady resupply point, it sounds like hell for the slower classes to have to run after the hyperactive child for ammo not because they cant but because their role is to be on the move forward.
That said the forward assault will benefit from them.
Maybe a topic for a thread somewhere..

Klockan

2012-07-07, 11:12 AM

Getting on a rooftop might be OMGZZ to some but it also excludes people from all the support mechanisms the game has to offer and being there alone is already a high risk vs reward decision.
Look at this guy:
Planetside 2 E3 Stream - Day 3 - (feat. Totalbiscuit and Margaret Krohn) - YouTube
He does it right, doesn't fly higher than necessary (makes you a target), doesn't fly to try to avoid bullets, doesn't camp on the roof etc. Instead he utilizes the jetpack to get behind people, since lethality is high catching people form behind is really powerful, even if they are stronger than you if you fight on an open field if he shot you a few times in the back you still die. He flies against the first guy he encounters, yes, but then he had already thrown a grenade so the flight was cowered by the smoke making the opponent unable to track him. Other than that he just moved around shooting people in the back while avoiding direct confrontations.

Sledgecrushr

2012-07-07, 11:35 AM

The class was clearly constructed for this purpose. LA is not designed to be the ultimate camping class and I know that our PS2 devs aren't dumb enough to make such an unbalanced mistake such as that. Even if they were, the ludicrous power that vertical mobility and long range weapon would grant would be quickly extinguished during Beta.

I dont know if a semi auto rifle with a x4 scope would turn the LA into a uberclass. Though I imagine through customisation the LA will have something very similar if you want it.

Erendil

2012-07-07, 12:59 PM

It's not just his opinion though.

It's how the game is devised with it's class roles. Light assault is for hitting fast using mobility. It has the jumpjet to close the distance. They're the close ranged / grenadier class, according to the class description.

Just because you have a fantasy about being a LA designated marksmen, doesn't mean the Devs or the players have any intention of including your fantasy.

From Planetside2.com (http://www.planetside2.com/news/lightassaultcommlink):
"Agile and deadly, they serve their empire as an excellent flanker and skirmisher. While other classes find themselves confined by walls, buildings, and sniper alleys, the Light Assault makes shortcuts and controls the flow of combat from on high...Each one of the Light Assault’s various Jumpjet configurations grants them the ability to take on different obstacles, shifting their role in combat...They can also equip more specialized configurations, such as the high boost Icarus Jumpjets, to reach walled objectives and perched Infiltrators.."

Sounds to me like they're designed to attack from above, too. They may be good and getting up close, hitting fast, and the jetting away, but they are certainly not limited to it. Nothing in the class description says they are limited to close range. And trying to belittle me or my statements by calling them "fantasies" doesn't change that.

Those roofs are there to allow the light assault to utilize his 3d mobility, not for him to camp on. Light assault is not a camper, he should constantly be repositioning. And then the light assault still got mid range weaponry which is enough to shoot down from any roof, I don't really see why you would need a sniper to be able to utilize roofs.

The jetpack mobility is not about flying around to avoid getting shot, it is about flying around to attack from unexpected angles. If an enemy hides behind a wall then flying on top of the wall to shoot him from above is utilizing his mobility. But as soon as the enemy knows you are there the positions value dwindles so you move on to new positions. Constantly changing positions is mobility and not positioning.

I never said anything about camping in one spot, but you're seriously delusional if you think that LA troops won't camp on those rooftops and other perches, battle rifle or no. And many LA troops will continue to stay in the same spot long after they're discovered so long as they're relatively safe and have a number of targets to shoot.

And pure mobility would be given by something like surge, where you can't get to more places than regular troops, but you can get to where you want faster. The fact that jumpjets let you attack from directions and locations not otherwise possible (like on top of the wall you mentioned) is "positioning" by its very definition. There is no time element involved. Hence my stress on mobility and positioning being LA strengths.

You do have a good point tho about what kind of accuracy is required to shoot from various rooftops. For example, here's a clip from the E3 footage showing an Engineer firing at troops below with a scoped carbine (which are traditionally less accurate than even assault rifles much less battle rifles): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fLakXgelJGY#t=1656s

Here's another one with a Medic holding an AR (I Think) looking to do the same thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fLakXgelJGY#t=3318s

Both troops seem like they'd be capable of hitting targets within most of the ground area they can view. If they had battle rifles instead I'm not sure how much more effective they'd be in those spots.

The class was clearly constructed for this purpose. LA is not designed to be the ultimate camping class and I know that our PS2 devs aren't dumb enough to make such an unbalanced mistake such as that. Even if they were, the ludicrous power that vertical mobility and long range weapon would grant would be quickly extinguished during Beta.

Again, I never said anything about camping. And yes, quickly moving from point A to point B is clearly what LA is designed to do. But there's NO reason why he has to quickly move on once he reaches his initial destination so long as he is relatively safe. LA troops are not required to constantly be on the move.

And I think you're blowing the power that a LA troop with a battle rifle would have WAY out of proportion. They will not be invincible, not by a long shot. HA troops could still return fire with battle rifles of their own. Infils could still out-snipe them. Commanders could OS them if need be. Tanks could still shell them from 500m away with impunity. And aircraft can still pound the shit out of their perches without any fear of retaliation since the LA guy has no AV weapons.

I think part of the problem we have here is that we're debating the capabilities of a weapon system (battle rifles) that may not even be in the game and that we have no stats on at all other than presuming its accuracy and damage are somewhere between an AR and a sniper rifle. I suspect some of us have very different ideas about how close to a sniper rifle they actually would be in-game.

Sharkdog

2012-07-07, 01:16 PM

Look at this guy:
He does it right, doesn't fly higher than necessary (makes you a target), doesn't fly to try to avoid bullets, doesn't camp on the roof etc. Instead he utilizes the jetpack to get behind people, since lethality is high catching people form behind is really powerful, even if they are stronger than you if you fight on an open field if he shot you a few times in the back you still die. He flies against the first guy he encounters, yes, but then he had already thrown a grenade so the flight was cowered by the smoke making the opponent unable to track him. Other than that he just moved around shooting people in the back while avoiding direct confrontations.

I totally hear you I've seen this footage too.
Sadly this is the only footage because this is just anybody at a booth at E3 and as you see most of the people he shoots are clueless and one is even seen just standing there unresponsive.
Now I think dude definitely knows how to use the jet pack in (close quarters) but then when we establish that.

How often does he go for a headshot or aims down his sight?
In his situation an assault rifle is the clear better choice, a shotgun in that situation would be even better.
Single shot weapons always are more penalized for unsighted firing and even if they were not, if you miss a shot in close combat since you stayed unsighted to stay mobile its effective suicide, a miss means something when you don't have a constant stream of fire.
Even if you get a couple clean hits in someone with full automatic can just run circles around you all day unsighted.
A constant stream of fire can help you guide your aim a single shot means you succeed or fail.
It is only preferable in less mobile fights with a low to medium mobility foe AND you having cover to aim down sight and retreat, or a camp spot where you are not "seen".
That said a battle-rifle has a COMPLETELY different dynamic in PS2 opposed to most shooters since even a infiltrator is unlikely to kill a MAX unit with a headshot for example.

At a longer range using the jet pack is yelling "shoot me first"!!!
In fact if someone spots you jetting up a building you are as good as dead cause your path is predictable.
Somewhere in the E3 footage you see someone catch someone jetting like twice.

IN any case I think certain things are obviously not done.
But something like a single shot rifle type weapon should be tested not excluded.
we aren't talking grenade launchers :D
Hope it was a decent read.

OutlawDr

2012-07-07, 02:48 PM

I never said anything about camping in one spot, but you're seriously delusional if you think that LA troops won't camp on those rooftops and other perches, battle rifle or no.

Exactly, so lets not give them the tools to camp even further. This is at the core of issue. With mobility and range, they are the ultimate lone wolf camper.

You forgot to quote other parts of the LA section

The Light Assault’s extreme mobility is their defining trait and allows them to move faster than most other soldiers. Each one of the Light Assault’s various Jumpjet configurations grants them the ability to take on different obstacles, shifting their role in combat. The Standard Jumpjets allow them to make their way over barriers and enemy’s heads alike. They can also equip more specialized configurations, such as the high boost Icarus Jumpjets, to reach walled objectives and perched Infiltrators, or the hovering Glider Jets, to descend on vulnerable ground targets safely.

The Light Assault also excels at supporting their empire through their unique class grenades. The blinding Flash grenades can render entire squads helpless and allow for a momentary break in defenses. They also have access to Smoke grenades, which can be used to block sniper alleys and direct the flow of combat. Both of the Light Assault’s class explosives are important in allowing their empire to make the final push in capturing difficult objectives.

In addition to their utility on the field, they also excel at short to medium range combat. The Light Assault is able to choose from a diverse arsenal of various weapon types, including rifles, shotguns, and SMGs. These options allow them to adapt to whatever their environment demands. The best Light Assault soldiers make sure to use their powerful weapons with the element of surprise, disabling enemies before they know what hit them.

Though not as sturdy as other soldiers, the agile Light Assault can do serious damage when flanking enemy squads, taking advantage of both their vast weapon and support options. Whether acting alone to disrupt enemy forces or in a group to finish capturing a facility, the Light Assault is a fearsome presence on the battlefields of Auraxis.

Do a recap: Mobility, flanking, utility grenade support, and short to medium range.

Erendil

2012-07-07, 11:03 PM

Exactly, so lets not give them the tools to camp even further. This is at the core of issue. With mobility and range, they are the ultimate lone wolf camper.

You forgot to quote other parts of the LA section

Do a recap: Mobility, flanking, utility grenade support, and short to medium range.

Actually infils are still the ultimate lone wolf camper, not that "camping" is a bad thing in PS1/2 to begin with. This isn't some 32v32 CoD minimap that resets every 30mins, where somebody sitting in one spot the the duration of a match isn't really helping out their team but just farming kills. This is a large-scale, 24/7 persistent, combined arms wargame.

Staying in one place for an extended period of time, or "camping" as you put it, is a normal, everyday, expected and accepted occurrence in PS1 where battles over a single base can last for days at a time. What is called "camping" in other FPSes is called "defending your position" in PS1. The tactic has completely different connotations in the context of a long-term, persistent battle. And I'm 100% positive the same will be said of PS2.

And whether or not LA troops get a battle rifle, their capacity for "camping" will not change for good or ill. Stop acting like a battle rifle will somehow transform LA troops into these uber-powerful, invincible snipe-whores. It's just not going to happen since all other classes will be able to return fire against said LA just fine and infantry are at the bottom of the food chain underneath vehicles when it comes to outdoor combat.

Giving LA troops battle rifles would instead be a small change in their method of attack, much like weapon customization. IT IS A SIDEGRADE, NOT A POWER INCREASE. A battle rifle by itself would not significantly extend the range at which they could engage targets since that is more dependent on what optics are available. It would, however, increase the accuracy of their shots within their already-established range. And for that increased accuracy they would lose some up-close ability. I see nothing wrong with this.

As for the LA description on SOE's site, I didn't forget to quote anything. We had already all agreed that mobility was a key component of LA tactics, so quoting it would be pointless and redundant. However, I DID quote the passages that point to positioning as being an important component as well, a fact which you apparently don't seem to accept despite what SOE's description, centuries of military history and tactics, and common sense would otherwise dictate. THE TWO ASPECTS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. It is not one or the other. They are BOTH important aspects of LA tactics.

OutlawDr

2012-07-08, 12:28 AM

Actually the part I quoted that was most important was the "short to medium range combat", which you neglected to acknowledge again. It doesn't say long range. So again paint this picture: fast flanker that engages in short to medium range.

Also battle rifles do extend the range one can engage at. A more powerful rifle will have its damage degrade less over distance. We already know thats the advantage assault rifles have over carbines in PS2. Im sure something similar will be for this weapon, since its based off the LMG model which is a larger rifle. The descriptions says "pick off long-range targets", which by SOE own description would exclude LA usage. Yea, a scope lets you get more accurate shots at range. But a scope on a carbine, is going to be a lot different than that same scope on a BR. A carbine is going to do less damage over the same distance. Unless they are in close range, where LA is suppose to excel at.

Accuser

2012-07-08, 12:50 AM

I'm 90% sure the Devs are smart enough not to overpower the LA by giving it a long-range weapon. If they do, I'll happily demonstrate how overpowered the tactic is in Beta.

Antivide

2012-07-08, 12:58 AM

I can't understand how people can't see the massive unbalancing if the HA had a long ranged weapon.

You take the class with the most hit points with anti-vehicle weapons... and you WANT TO GIVE HIM A SNIPER RIFLE?

Battle rifle is like a DMR. It's a long range rifle that out ranges assault rifles. Hence it works with the Infiltrator.

Case in point: Recon in BF3.

Marinealver

2012-07-08, 01:11 AM

LMG actuallly have a longer effective range than assault (aka battle) rifles. Those low accuracy short range LMGs are tweaked for gameplay ballances. Sure if you hold down the trigger you wont get any accuracy. That is why militaries train them in short controlled bursts.

At first I thought it is better to have Heavy Assault as the sniper class instead of infiltraitors because most planestide snipers had rexo armor, but after I saw that the infiltraitors cloak isn't like the planetside 1 cloak, I now agree with the sniper infiltraitors.

Accuser

2012-07-08, 01:33 AM

I can't understand how people can't see the massive unbalancing if the HA had a long ranged weapon.
It's nice to get back on topic here.
HA have the least utility compared to the other classes. Really, they're basically under-armored MAXes... until you give them the battle rifle.
Medics get to heal and shield, engis can drop turrets and ammo, MAXes are beasts, and snipers have OSK capability with cloaking. HA could use the per-spawn versatility.

Erendil

2012-07-08, 01:53 AM

Actually the part I quoted that was most important was the "short to medium range combat", which you neglected to acknowledge again. It doesn't say long range. So again paint this picture: fast flanker that engages in short to medium range.

Okay, then let me address the full quote directly then, not just your bolded phrase:

In addition to their utility on the field, they also excel at short to medium range combat. The Light Assault is able to choose from a diverse arsenal of various weapon types, including rifles, shotguns, and SMGs. These options allow them to adapt to whatever their environment demands.

That first sentence has a whole new meaning when you read the whole thing instead of just the latter phrase you highlighted. So they excel and short and medium ranges in addition to "out in the field," which presumably means "long" range since that's the only range that's left (though I hesitate to say purely "long range" since I like to reserve that designation for sniper rifles). In addition, they are being given rifles, which I assume already means assault rifles but could easily also include battle rifles.

Also battle rifles do extend the range one can engage at. A more powerful rifle will have its damage degrade less over distance. We already know thats the advantage assault rifles have over carbines in PS2. Im sure something similar will be for this weapon, since its based off the LMG model which is a larger rifle. The descriptions says "pick off long-range targets", which by SOE own description would exclude LA usage. Yea, a scope lets you get more accurate shots at range. But a scope on a carbine, is going to be a lot different than that same scope on a BR. A carbine is going to do less damage over the same distance. Unless they are in close range, where LA is suppose to excel at.

Very good point about a scopes effectiveness on different weaopns. I'll also concede your assertion that battle rifles logically could inherently giving you a longer range then say, an assault rifle due to the increased damage. However, my understanding is that LMG's in PS2 are (for balance reasons) actually less accurate than assault rifles, so obviously the Devs are willing to go against logic for the sake of gameplay balance. Thus it would be quite easy for them to do the same for battle rifles, to let them for example be more accurate and higher damage per shot, but giving them higher damage degradation, lower headshot multipliers, short max range, or something like that to keep the weapon in check at the far end of its effective range.

In addition, I still contend that there is nothing that I've read that says LA troops can't/won't also be effective at medium-long ranges. Quite the contrary.

It's nice to get back on topic here.
HA have the least utility compared to the other classes. Really, they're basically under-armored MAXes... until you give them the battle rifle.
Medics get to heal and shield, engis can drop turrets and ammo, MAXes are beasts, and snipers have OSK capability with cloaking. HA could use the per-spawn versatility.

This is very true. HA troops are basically the all-around fighter class of PS2, so it certainly makes sense that their specialty would be to have the greatest variety and versatility in weapon systems.

Sharkdog

2012-07-08, 02:16 AM

Outlawdr you keep emphasizing on how great a point your making but its not a point at all its quite rhetorical.
It reads LA excel at short to medium range NOT can only fight at short to medium range.
That my friend is selective reading at its best and quoting your own personally preferred interpretation as holy gospel.

That said opponents of the concept of LA having BR have become very rhetorical in general.
If you are going to post in a thread dismissing/ignoring others posts, stating meaningless one lined political statements like "if the devs aren't smart enough to do as I say I will show people in Beta how OP it is".
Then don't post.
In short try to actually reply to others not inner monologue.

As it stands no one is really refuting any points Erendil or I have made.
Try to keep it a discussion not a political campaign.

As it stands LA will still have their mobility with or without BR and will still have to be looked for in the EXACT same spots.
As much arguments for a BR being OP for other classes can be made just as easily.
Like Antivide and I have also said HR have much more hit-points would probably be far stronger BR platforms with higher hp.
Whoever picks up a BR will be competing with infiltrators, this should not be a HA, LA however will be squashed by infiltrators one-shotting them.
Lets not compare to other shooters too much this game does have different hitpoint pools and some classes wont even die from a shot to the face from sniper rifles.
Lets not act like BR are somehow omglolz sniper rifles with a higher rate of fire.
I have no clue where this presumption of OP lolz comes from there is not one single game in the FPS universe where single shot rifles are the ultimate choice over using burst on assault rifles.
And that is what this is everyone afraid of battle rifles seems to not be able to use them well in CoD or Battlefield, even while those games don't deal with different hit-point scenarios.

Having played a lot of battlefield the battle rifle was not the most overpowered rifle at all and competing with dedicated snipers was quite less effective while that game doesn't have even half the haze effects PS2 has.
Overlighting from the sun, faded sight from darkness to the point you need night goggles or heat vision etc. etc.

All that I am hearing is unfounded presumptions over what a battle rifle will be able to do and its clearly made out to be a sniper rifle which is redundant.
Because sniper rifles are not battle rifles with 8x or whatever scopes.

P.S. should infiltrators still be able to one shot HA I see no problem with them using BR.

Karrade

2012-07-08, 11:29 AM

The entire point of a more mobile unit is to attack an ennemy from unexpected angles. Not to provide cover.
Jetpack is for getting out of a pinned down position and get an angle (ie : flank) the ones pinning your troops down.

LA are backrape-ers, a very important tool in FPS

Excluding fun, which i'll have playing all classes, and again I am not suggesting a BR for LA, just range for LA.
I'm not sold on LA at all after hearing range is unlikely, not when you can just pilot something in to that unexpected angle, and get out in heavier armor.

Without any range, for me, it depends on respawn time, if respawn is fast I can't see them being very useful, if its slow yes I can see it being useful.

Of course its situational, might be the odd time it'll be preferable as a distraction etc or to get somewhere the enemy are not defending, but most of the time with no range to them I can't see it being preferable.

But you can get up high!! Yes but that is of no use to you, or the team. (no range)
But you can go in fast!! With lesser weapons and armor, so that is a trade off not an advantage of the class.
But you can get out of range!! Useful in a slow respawn time game to heal, otherwise I'll be sticking with a more heavily armed rusher for the times a rusher is needed. PS1 was a game of respawning when a push was needed, if we assaulted bases enough we learned this quite early.

Obviously they aren't designed to provide cover. That's what snipers do. LA get in close, jump behind the enemy, and take out a few enemies with short-range weapons in a blaze of glory, since their armor wont sustain them for long. The jetpack is for surprise and speed. They are PS2's CoD players, compared to the slower movement and heavier weapons of HA and MAXes that are slightly more of PS2's PS1 players.

Giving LA sniper range would make them entirely too dodgey and difficult to kill. Whereas in Alpha, almost any class could kite a MAX, LA-snipers could kite any class. It would make them better snipers than Infiltrators are, and that's just stupid.

Better snipers? Not at all, just give them worse weapons, simple, nothing has to be a certain way at all. I seemed to have the idea of the class backwards, I thought they -were meant to be hard to hit because of their armor trade off, moving the fight forward ;), now from what I am reading they are meant to be fodder? - Ah reminds me of flash gorden and hawkmen.

Flash Gordon Hawkmen vs Ajax - YouTube

I look forward to meeting any LA, once I am used to the packs they'll be good kill food :).

At present here is my current opinion of the most useful to least useful class for teamplay, from what i've seen in the videos, and from the discussions here, from the developers etc:

Engineer - So much utility! Ammo, Revive, Max Repair, Vehicle Repair - Uber Teamwork Class!
Max - The customisation had my eyes popping :), 1/2 AV, 1/2 AI! Or double flamers! Yum, Yum.
Medic (Always great, AOE heals for the team, very nice, but if engineers do have revive you can drop this below a cloaker)
Cloaker - Always useful in its uniqe role :D
---
HA - Jack of all trades, good solo class, outdone in nearly all other ways. BR has given me hope :), might launch it above the useful line for teamplay.
LA - Rusher with less armor, less range, less versatility (than the class above), more mobility. - Many negatives, one fun positive.

OutlawDr

2012-07-08, 02:58 PM

Okay, then let me address the full quote directly then, not just your bolded phrase:

In addition to their utility on the field, they also excel at short to medium range combat. The Light Assault is able to choose from a diverse arsenal of various weapon types, including rifles, shotguns, and SMGs. These options allow them to adapt to whatever their environment demands.

That first sentence has a whole new meaning when you read the whole thing instead of just the latter phrase you highlighted. So they excel and short and medium ranges in addition to "out in the field," which presumably means "long" range since that's the only range that's left (though I hesitate to say purely "long range" since I like to reserve that designation for sniper rifles). In addition, they are being given rifles, which I assume already means assault rifles but could easily also include battle rifles.

Heh, ok this butchering of SOE quotes is getting silly. I'm going to stop responding to them if it keeps up. Please read the 2 paragraphs preceding that one (quoted below). It talks about jumpjets and utility grenades like flash and smoke grenades. Thats the "utility on the field". Its a real stretch to try to extend "Utility" to mean long range weapons. Damage dealing weapons are not usually described as utility. Also carbines are considered to be rifles btw. They are basically shortened assault rifles.

The Light Assault’s extreme mobility is their defining trait and allows them to move faster than most other soldiers. Each one of the Light Assault’s various Jumpjet configurations grants them the ability to take on different obstacles, shifting their role in combat. The Standard Jumpjets allow them to make their way over barriers and enemy’s heads alike. They can also equip more specialized configurations, such as the high boost Icarus Jumpjets, to reach walled objectives and perched Infiltrators, or the hovering Glider Jets, to descend on vulnerable ground targets safely.

The Light Assault also excels at supporting their empire through their unique class grenades. The blinding Flash grenades can render entire squads helpless and allow for a momentary break in defenses. They also have access to Smoke grenades, which can be used to block sniper alleys and direct the flow of combat. Both of the Light Assault’s class explosives are important in allowing their empire to make the final push in capturing difficult objectives.

In addition to their utility on the field, they also excel at short to medium range combat. The Light Assault is able to choose from a diverse arsenal of various weapon types, including rifles, shotguns, and SMGs. These options allow them to adapt to whatever their environment demands. The best Light Assault soldiers make sure to use their powerful weapons with the element of surprise, disabling enemies before they know what hit them.

==

]Outlawdr you keep emphasizing on how great a point your making but its not a point at all its quite rhetorical.
It reads LA excel at short to medium range NOT can only fight at short to medium range.
That my friend is selective reading at its best and quoting your own personally preferred interpretation as holy gospel.

I've already given vaild gameplay arguments as to why LA shouldn't get long range weapons. Just because you disagree doesn't make it "rhetorical". There is also that quagmire of the SOE quotation about LAs. However IMHO, if anyone reads the LA descriptions and thinks SOE intended to give LA long range, they are the ones with selective reading.

Anyway, Im glad most agree HA should get battle rifles. Should other classes get it? I don't know. Maybe infiltrators and engineers, but I don't think LA should. However I do agree LA are bit bare in utility and roles, but giving them BR isn't the answer. This is why I objected to removing ammo pack from LA. Since they are a close range class, it meant they had to be close to the action, and which means they were going to close to allies as well. However if you give them long range, hell no should they get ammo box.

Erendil

2012-07-08, 06:26 PM

Heh, ok this butchering of SOE quotes is getting silly. I'm going to stop responding to them if it keeps up. Please read the 2 paragraphs preceding that one (quoted below). It talks about jumpjets and utility grenades like flash and smoke grenades. Thats the "utility on the field". Its a real stretch to try to extend "Utility" to mean long range weapons. Damage dealing weapons are not usually described as utility. Also carbines are considered to be rifles btw. They are basically shortened assault rifles.

Yep, I’ve read the whole description. Show me where it says that LA troops are for short/medium range only. That’s right, it doesn’t. In fact, the vast majority of that page doesn't mention range at all.

And you're right. Picking apart a 1-page summary written 4 months ago like it's some sort of scripture written in stone is doing neither of us any good. A lot has changed in 4 months and that text is not exactly all-inclusive in its content. :p

You obviously have some pretty entrenched ideas about what LA troops should be capable of and some deep balance concerns regarding LA's effective range. Sharkdog and I have tried to allay those fears and show you how it could add more variety to LA combat and enrich the experience of playing that class beyond your rigid definition without being OP'd, but you're either unmoved by or have simply ignored most of the evidence we've presented. And I have not been swayed by your arguments either so we are at an impasse.

So I think you and I are done here. But I will say this (and OutlawDr this is not directed specifically at you): Conversations like this one illustrate beautifully why I despise class systems so much. People get these ideas in their heads about what each class should or should not be able to do, and they put each class into these tight little boxes at the expense of variety and flexibility in gameplay. But with PS2's customization, no one class will be limited to just one role. Likewise, no one role will be the exclusive territory of any particular class.

And of course, Beta hasn't even started yet, and hardly any of us at PSU have even played the game yet. Once Beta starts everything is up for grabs, so once we all get our hands dirty and experience the weapons and classes first hand, we can stop playing theoryside and back up our arguments with actual PS2 game experience... :cool:

CutterJohn

2012-07-08, 06:37 PM

This doesn't paint the picture of a high RoF, low accuracy weapon we associate with the LMG.

:huh:

In what universe are LMGs low accuracy? They are guns with a heavy barrel, probably with the ability to quickly swap barrels, and possibly with the ability to use ammo belts, but sometimes they just have big drum mags.

They are not inaccurate unless you're trying to run around with them. This is in fact how it is in most games, too.

OutlawDr

2012-07-08, 06:38 PM

I agree that nothing can be settled outside of beta. We can only plant ideas for further discussion.

Likewise, no one role will be the exclusive territory of any particular class.

I know you don't like the class based system, but there are going to be exclusive roles and there will be roles excluded from certain classes. Its going to happen. Thats the nature of the beast. Healing and reviving will stay exclusive with combat medic. Sniper rifles with infiltrators. ect..

:huh:

In what universe are LMGs low accuracy? They are guns with a heavy barrel, probably with the ability to quickly swap barrels, and possibly with the ability to use ammo belts, but sometimes they just have big drum mags.

They are not inaccurate unless you're trying to run around with them. This is in fact how it is in most games, too.

Yes, I know real world LMGs are more accurate than how they are represented in most games.

willaguy

2012-07-08, 06:41 PM

If you look at the stats it has a higher RoF and the firing modes say automatic, so it's either the stats that are wrong or the description.

CutterJohn

2012-07-08, 06:50 PM

Yes, I know real world LMGs are more accurate than how they are represented in most games.

Actually, most games represent them well. They are bad for run and gun, with a huge cof, and deadly when motionless and sighted.

On the other hand, games have gotten shotguns and rocket launchers wrong from day one. :mad:

I know you don't like the class based system, but there are going to be exclusive roles and there will be roles excluded from certain classes. Its going to happen. Thats the nature of the beast. Healing and reviving will stay exclusive with combat medic. Sniper rifles with infiltrators. ect..

Somewhat. Major class abilities, yes. MAXs can't cloak. But As far as weapons go, the classes are pretty diverse. Yes, only infils get sniper rifles, but the other rifles will be able to be made effective at long range as well, you just won't be getting one hit headshots. Infils may be the best, but that doesn't mean that the other classes will be an ignorable threat at range.

Hopefully MAXs will have some long range weapon variants as well, so they aren't useless outside the base. It would be ridiculous if they ignored the MAXs obvious strength as a stable firing platform.

Knightwyvern

2012-07-08, 09:10 PM

Actually, most games represent them well. They are bad for run and gun, with a huge cof, and deadly when motionless and sighted.

On the other hand, games have gotten shotguns and rocket launchers wrong from day one. :mad:

Somewhat. Major class abilities, yes. MAXs can't cloak. But As far as weapons go, the classes are pretty diverse. Yes, only infils get sniper rifles, but the other rifles will be able to be made effective at long range as well, you just won't be getting one hit headshots. Infils may be the best, but that doesn't mean that the other classes will be an ignorable threat at range.

Hopefully MAXs will have some long range weapon variants as well, so they aren't useless outside the base. It would be ridiculous if they ignored the MAXs obvious strength as a stable firing platform.

Agreed. Here's hoping LMG in PS2 will end up being what they really should be. I wouldn't mind for some semi-accurate shotgun mechanics too :) Not much hope of realistic rocket/missile launchers though, oh well.

MAX would make for a cool long range platform, but it might overlap a little too much with the Engi turrets; though, I like those better as they are more team oriented it seems to me. Hopefully though a Scattercannon on an NC MAX will have a slug ammo option, or there will be a more long range weapon option available for when you aren't in close quarters.

OutlawDr

2012-07-08, 10:57 PM

Somewhat. Major class abilities, yes. MAXs can't cloak. But As far as weapons go, the classes are pretty diverse. Yes, only infils get sniper rifles, but the other rifles will be able to be made effective at long range as well, you just won't be getting one hit headshots. Infils may be the best, but that doesn't mean that the other classes will be an ignorable threat at range.

I don't know about that. Im sure there will be several fully universal weapons such as pistols, basic grenades C4.... But for most weapons I wouldn't be too surprised if a class or two are excluded. Shotguns on infiltrators is already debated. We just saw that recent uproar about the possibility of engineers getting assault rifles (a weapon that was seen by many as sole domain of the medic). I don't think HA will get shotguns, carbines or assault rifles..mostly because they don't really need them...again a class consideration. And there are weapons like the sniper rifle, LMG, class grenades that are exclusive to one class. We'll see soon I guess.