Camo/night/cover versus giant red names.

[BorisBlade]

I love the idea of having camo, or night time to hide, or even foliage as cover. However, we will all have giant red names blazing over our heads and on top of that a really lame marking system where its just spammed around so you get tracked regardlesss of any of those methods of trying to avoid detection.

So it seems to me that all the coolness or heck even the point of most of that cover is completely destroyed and useless with whats basically a giant neon sign saying here i am please kill me now. It wont matter if you are in thick cover, darkest of night, and in full on forest camo. If you have a giant sign above your head everyone sees you as just as well as if you were in a wide open field in the middle of the day jumping up and down nekkid screaming please shoot me.

Is there any game that does a better job with this? Is there a better way to do it?

Ive seen several ideas floating around such as, no names unless you specifically run your reticule over someone and either hit them with direct fire or hover over them for atleast a full second before it shows up. So you cant spam aoe weapons into cover to find someone, and you cant wave your crosshairs around to find em either.

You must actually see them visually before a name pops up. And have that name show up in a fixed position in the UI such as the bottom or near the crosshairs instead of over that players head so we dont have a giant red sign (literally) advertising our location.

This also leads to the marking system, keeping it limited to one mark at a time and have it vanish after 15 seconds. Or still have it only last 15 seconds but let more go out but it wouldnt work behind objects but may mark em on the mini map or whatever. Either way, a short duration is needed to allow that person to eventually get cover again. I'm personally against it in most any form but if its limited then it could be acceptable.

Thoughts? Suggestions? I would like foliage to actually be usable cover and have camo actually have a point tactically, and to have night be more than just a way to get pretty tracers and actually be useful for cover. We dont need any fluff aspects that are just there to sound cool but dont actually do anything. That stuff is just wasted and could instead be great game mechanics.

[Otleaz]

Why do we need red names tags? I'm against red and green name tags, but if we have green, why on earth would we need the red ones?

[Littleman]

I don't know... how accessible is the camo?

I mean, I'd generally agree that removing the names opens up options for players not wearing a wet-suit, but if everyone and their mom will have access to camo fairly early and easily, I'd actually say no.

I'd like to see faction colors on players. Removing the name just further encourages people to use camo, because they'll feel they need to to blend in and remain competitive. Likewise, keeping names active does turn it into a cosmetic option, not a tactical one.

Alternatively, looking at this from a freebies perspective, if names are forcefully hidden and camo's are paying customer exclusives, they could be construed as selling power. Even if it's not, that's exactly the claim they'll make, mark my words.

I guess I'm sitting on the point where I'd be fine either way personally but would prefer to encourage wearing faction colors without it feeling disadvantageous, but the public opinion may wildly vary based on how accessible the camos are.

Hrm... maybe as an advanced targeting implant feature?

[Synapse]

Thread is useless unless boris is actually playing beta.

Unless that's true he has no idea how names or marking actually work.

[Rivenshield]

In auld Auraxis someone's name only showed up when you had then in your crosshairs or they were right on top of you. That'll continue to serve, I think.

[Otleaz]

Alternatively, looking at this from a freebies perspective, if names are forcefully hidden and camo's are paying customer exclusives, they could be construed as selling power. Even if it's not, that's exactly the claim they'll make, mark my words.


That is the claim they will make because it is true. Camos will be pay2win as long as the red names don't automatically pop up.

The Devs said something about faction colors in a camo pattern instead of real camo though, so it shouldn't be a problem

[Jeepo]

I think red tags are silly. Green is not ideal but is useful from a command point of view. Keep green and dump red.

[Psi]

I think it's funny that people think Camos are going to be this all-encompassing invisibility cloak that's twice as effective as the Infiltrator's active camo.

It's going to be dinky Desert/Snow/Wood camo that probably only covers, at best, 60% of the character model. And I'd think those non-faction colored versions would be more expensive than something that is faction colored. But still, I'm sure we'll still see some Red, Blue, and Purple mixed in with that camo.

Looking back at some of the camos we've seen, there are still giant TR/NC/VS faction logos painted on your face/chest, along with Red/Gold/Purple trim lining your character as it did before. The only change is that your breastplate and shin guards will have some nice camo painted on them.

I think the only class that will truly benefit from camo, within 100 meters will be an infiltrator. They're slim enough, and don't have that many faction trim colors, that it seems like they'll benefit from it. But even so, that's the one class that should benefit from it.

As far as the camo argument goes overall. I think you'd have to be pretty dense to think this would be useful, at all, when you're in close quarters, which is where most infantry fighting will happen.


Seriously folks. This isn't going to be a ghillie suit. It's going to be paint on small portions of your existing armor.

[QuantumMechanic]

This may be a valid concern. But we just won't know until beta.

Personally I don't like the idea of only having the bad guy's name show up when you target him - because there are cases in CQB when you may be targeting the guy as he rushes you but he is so close to you that you can't see his head - let alone his name in big red letters above it. Maybe not common but it definitely happens.

[Shinjorai]

^
O here i am please kill me now.
V


Dont mind me, just pasing through.....

[Policenaut]

What if Infiltrators got some kind of IFF device in place of a grenade that put indicators over an enemy's head?

[infected]

permanent red name tags = wow. pretty sure SOE knows this doesn't belong in fps.

the correct way to do this in an fps is to have the enemy name pop up on screen only when you have your cursor on them. end of controversy.

[Gonefshn]

I prefer the approach where friendlies have green tags and enemies have no tags at all. Just seems to make the most sense and be the most immersive for sure.

[TAA]

I also prefer no tags on enemy players at all. However I am willing to live with an option to turn off enemy tags on my system.

In fact, I would like to be able to turn off all tags - friendly and enemy. The only times I want tags is when my crosshairs are directly over a player model. I think night fighting without permanently visible tags would be awesome.

[Otleaz]

I also prefer no tags on enemy players at all. However I am willing to live with an option to turn off enemy tags on my system.

In fact, I would like to be able to turn off all tags - friendly and enemy. The only times I want tags is when my crosshairs are directly over a player model. I think night fighting without permanently visible tags would be awesome.
I would love an option like this(without the hoverover part).

Oh, and make it so it doesn't tell me if my bullets hit and also make it so I don't get the kill message until 10 seconds after I make the kill, friend and foe.

[TAA]

I would love an option like this(without the hoverover part).

Oh, and make it so it doesn't tell me if my bullets hit and also make it so I don't get the kill message until 10 seconds after I make the kill, friend and foe.

Hell yeah. :cool:

Mind you, I would actually be open to enabling tags of people who are on my friends list. It might be nice to be able to pick out my friends from a crowd.

[Zebasiz]

For those proposing no red tags at all, but yes to green ones, doesn't that leave the same issue? Sure there are no red tags, but now you know you just have to shoot those with no tags on sight. Tag = friendly, no tag = enemy.

Really I think it would be best for either no tags at all friend or foe. perhaps friend if they are really close or you look at them for a while. So you would still have to check empire at a distance. Or show the red tags when looked at, but again, only within a certain distance. So you need to actually look at their armor and colors to IFF from a distance.

Though to be honest I like the no tags at all approach. Much like, (yes everyone hates anything to do with it) CoD's cold blooded perk. Where the enemy pointer doesn't turn red on you, nor is your name shown.
I'm not suggesting this as a perk, but as the standard. Merely using the perk as an example.

Even though those games are all "realistic" and grey/brown. I liked it because it made you have to make SURE you know who you were shooting at. Specially the ghilly suits. And I think that kind of care is proper for PS2.

[BeastBuster]

I am also against permanent enemy tags... Wouldn't it kill the mood of a night fight if we already know where everybody is?

[The Kush]

No enemy names

[TAA]

For those proposing no red tags at all, but yes to green ones, doesn't that leave the same issue? Sure there are no red tags, but now you know you just have to shoot those with no tags on sight. Tag = friendly, no tag = enemy.

Yes, but at least it would cut down on the amount of crap filling up the screen. It would also give some sort of benefit for players who are more sneaky and use terrain to conceal their approach, or choose the right area to fire from or hide in.

[Vreki]

Sounds like it is mostly a sniper problem, and sniper tears are good for the environment.

IFF off with FF on favours campers which makes for boring gameplay. In ps1 there is no real cover due to the graphical limitations, so it is not really an issue. But it could be a problem in ps2

[Momember]

My vote is for no tags at all and the ability to turn hit feedback off
it's obvious enough through faction colours who's who and I don't think we will be seeing any kind of camo which is going to ruin that without leading to pay2win.

I hope Planetside 2 will support infantry a lot more than in the original in terms of being able to use cover and concealment tags and hit feed back ruin that at least for me.

[DarkChiron]

It's been said before but needs constant restating. Permanent red tags over enemies would completely destroy anything cool you'd get from nighttime combat. Having ally tags would do the same thing to a lesser degree.

I imagine I'd prefer a system that was just ally tags. From the looks of things, your allies already show up on your mini-map, so you can already tell if a guy is on your side or not from that. I don't see a real reason to hide it, and it keeps you from being able to have those "I remember that guy, he's awesome!" moments.

Your "I remember that guy, I hate him" moments for your enemy will come when they kill you and they show up on your kill cam.

[infected]

Sounds like it is mostly a sniper problem, and sniper tears are good for the environment.

IFF off with FF on favours campers which makes for boring gameplay. In ps1 there is no real cover due to the graphical limitations, so it is not really an issue. But it could be a problem in ps2

that's a narrow minded view that ignores how the tags negatively affect the overall mentality of the player. all tags should be removed. not to "protect our snipers". to prevent the game from being dumbed down. there's nothing more dumbed down than removing the IFF responsibilities of the gamer, and making the info given to us w/o thinking. a thinking game > a non-thinking game. the more info the player is left to process on his own, the more room there is for players to feel there is a level of skill required to do well.

i mean really, why are the tags necessary? everyone is wearing different color armor and vehicles. if you want tags make the minimap display spotted enemy last known locations.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

I would love an option like this(without the hoverover part).

Oh, and make it so it doesn't tell me if my bullets hit and also make it so I don't get the kill message until 10 seconds after I make the kill, friend and foe.

I think hit feedback is a bit odd. I exploit the hell out of this in PS1. Park a projectile weapon (Vanguard, prowler, lightning) behind cover and just lob shells at trees. If I get the orange ball and no grief, repeat last transmission...

I don't think identifiers are necessary. You can usually tell from the silhouette if it's a baddy.

[Vreki]

that's a narrow minded view that ignores how the tags negatively affect the overall mentality of the player. all tags should be removed. not to "protect our snipers". to prevent the game from being dumbed down. there's nothing more dumbed down than removing the IFF responsibilities of the gamer, and making the info given to us w/o thinking. a thinking game > a non-thinking game. the more info the player is left to process on his own, the more room there is for players to feel there is a level of skill required to do well.

i mean really, why are the tags necessary? everyone is wearing different color armor and vehicles. if you want tags make the minimap display spotted enemy last known locations.

Well for one thing, I want to play Planetside, not ARMA.
I want dynamic battles and people putting themselves in the line of fire to achive their goals.
I do not want snipers sitting at the edge of the map racking up kills with one shot a piece, while at the same time expecting their victims to spend 30 minutes triangulating their postion on a map, and then organize a whole outfit to hunt them down.

Why are the tags necessary? Well, its not that big an issue in PS1 because of the limtation of the engine. Blocky graphics and spare terrains mean that you cant really hide. But even there it can be an issue with highflying aircrafts.

PS2 has an different engine, so there is much more potential for soldiers to belnd with the terrain, which again could affect the whole way the game is played.
And I do not want another Battlefield or COD, I already have a bunch of those. I want the Planetside Experience, and IMHO that would change dramatically if hide & seek gets much focus.

[GreatMazinkaise]

Sounds like a winner to me... I like to know who my friends are, not just what side they're on. Likewise if I catch a glimpse of someone who's actually good I can run the fuck away.

Just turn the tags off at night or when they're out of line of sight/range/readable size.

[BeastBuster]

Well for one thing, I want to play Planetside, not ARMA.
I want dynamic battles and people putting themselves in the line of fire to achive their goals.
I do not want snipers sitting at the edge of the map racking up kills with one shot a piece, while at the same time expecting their victims to spend 30 minutes triangulating their postion on a map, and then organize a whole outfit to hunt them down.

Why are the tags necessary? Well, its not that big an issue in PS1 because of the limtation of the engine. Blocky graphics and spare terrains mean that you cant really hide. But even there it can be an issue with highflying aircrafts.

PS2 has an different engine, so there is much more potential for soldiers to belnd with the terrain, which again could affect the whole way the game is played.
And I do not want another Battlefield or COD, I already have a bunch of those. I want the Planetside Experience, and IMHO that would change dramatically if hide & seek gets much focus.

Stealth should be an important aspect of this game and having permanent red tags over enemies essentially eliminates it. For more than just snipers.

Trying to move around carefully and blending in with the environment is good strategy and that should be encouraged.

[Antivide]

For those proposing no red tags at all, but yes to green ones, doesn't that leave the same issue? Sure there are no red tags, but now you know you just have to shoot those with no tags on sight. Tag = friendly, no tag = enemy.

The problem is whether or not you can see them. If you literally cannot see them (as in at night or cleverly hiding) you shouldn't be able to "see" them anways.

If you can see them... you can see them. That's kind of the point. The point the OP is making is that there shouldn't be a big red marker over your head tracking you everywhere you go BF3 style. If you see an enemy, shoot them! You don't need a red marker to help you.

If you can't see them it's your own fault. Identifying enemy players should be a skill you learn and not one that's given to you with gimmicky red doritos.

[Vreki]

Stealth should be an important aspect of this game and having permanent red tags over enemies essentially eliminates it. For more than just snipers.

Trying to move around carefully and blending in with the environment is good strategy and that should be encouraged.

What is good strategy depends entirely on the rules of the game. And this is after all a game.
If you add much stealth to Planetside then you get a very different Planetside, and they way I see it a Planetside that loses some of what makes it unique.

That said, I dont want permanent red tags over enemies, I just want an instant IFF indicator if I am looking at a friendly. And I mean instant, hovering over a target for 2 secs is usually not an option if you want to live.

[Furber]

You mentioned having to run your reticule over the enemy to get a name to pop up. I like the idea of having to 'detect' people, so you don't just immediately know where everyone is because they're in your field of view somewhere. I could see them having different attachments/certs/implants that could affect this mechanic, such as a wider area of detection on your reticule, or faster detecting. I don't think this should run into the area of "spotting" because I know that tends to be a bit of a sore subject here that I myself am a bit fuzzy about. For now, I'd say detecting should only show names for your screen, not for everyone near you too.

[infected]

What is good strategy depends entirely on the rules of the game. And this is after all a game.
If you add much stealth to Planetside then you get a very different Planetside, and they way I see it a Planetside that loses some of what makes it unique.

That said, I dont want permanent red tags over enemies, I just want an instant IFF indicator if I am looking at a friendly. And I mean instant, hovering over a target for 2 secs is usually not an option if you want to live.

shouldn't it be pretty instant once you see their clothing? see, friendly fire server settings became unpopular once CoD4 became popular and all the console kids couldn't stand moron teammates, and vise versa, they wanted to spam ordinance with no regard to IFF.

its a dumbed down situation that AAA titles adopted. it surely isn't welcome in old school pc fps games. grow some skill and ID your targets before pulling that trigger. its a fair play field. because the other team has to do the same thing. there's no excuse. at all.

[Ivam Akorahil]

i personally think, since planetside 2 will be quite arcady to begin with, we should not feed random cod and bf3 players,

no red names at all, if you want to do spotting, learn your job, give good target descriptions and followable location descriptions.

instead of "oh, see a nub on the field, lets press q and mark him"

it would be: " Recon alpha here, i spotted an enemy infiltrator at the base of the second tree from the left viewing direction east from base xyz"

furthermore : get rid of those retarded hit indicators and kill messages
it is silly to know "when you hit by meta gaming" or when you killed somebody by "meta gaming" not knowing if you actualy did hit the enemy or killed him spices things up a bit

in fact id like to have planetside 2 go more into the direction of milsim(arma 2) than hit run jump bf2142 (dont get me wrong i love bf, but its totally different from a persistent mmofps)

planetside 2 should encourage proper operations and coordination of random zergs - not knowing where the enemy is unless you have actual recon deployed is one way of telling people :" hey, maybe you should gather some info and apply tactics instead of randomly zerging into your death"

+ in the name of god please add prone, how retarded is it for a sniper not to be able to prone??? or getting shot into the head just because the obstacle you use as cover is a tad too low and you cant lie down behind it

+ large accuracy penalty (lots of crosshair swing) for standing positions (thinks of those bf3 standing behind rock snipers doing head shots on 900m without support - in real life, this is virtualy impossible even on not moving targets unless your an absolute lucker, and then you probably manage to this only once in your life

in fact, planetside 2 should be like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BguGRjPqCtM

end of story :<

[NoDachi]

it would be: " Recon alpha here, i spotted an enemy infiltrator at the base of the second tree from the left viewing direction east from base xyz"

hahhaha

I swear I would laugh if anyone said that over VOIP. Lets not pretend to be more than we actually are mmkay?

[Ivam Akorahil]

hahhaha

I swear I would laugh if anyone said that over VOIP. Lets not pretend to be more than we actually are mmkay?

well, ive been in the army 4 years and something like that definitely tells me more than a random guy going " ANEMY THO THA LEFT"
<- looks left and tries to figure out where in the 5 square kilometers that i can see he saw someone, some people simply like to be a bit more serious about some games than others + it simply refers to not using target marking and actual recon report.

In my personal opinion i would prefer planetside 2 to be simply more tactical and not a bf3 run and shoot game
besides that i dont see the point in your post besides trying to stir trouble

[NoDachi]

Yes, and I've been the army aswell.

You can just about justify something like that in a military sim like ArmA, but in planetside you'll be wasting valuable time in a fast pace game.

That kind of 'recon alpha' stuff is more RP than practical.

besides that i dont see the point in your post besides trying to stir trouble

I'm not trying to stir trouble for trouble sake. Nor am I trying offend you for offence sake.

I just don't believe what you described really highlights your understanding of planetside 2.

[Ivam Akorahil]

i know that what i was saying isnt planetside, i was saying i would prefer in my opinion if it was that way :> anyways back to topic

[MrKWalmsley]

I'm pretty sure that big red names don't appear unless you are within the kind of ranges where camo is practically useless, and in the case that you happen to aim at a person with camo for long enough when they are not close, or when they have been spotted by a friendly. It's not a case of you looking in one direction and then at the corner of your screen at quite some distance suddenly a massive clot of illuminated red name tags appear.

If you have camo and you're quite far away, the only way your position will be given away is if they happen to look at you for an extended period of time, which seems to suggest they have already spotted you. Also the name tag only would appear on the individual looking at you, the other won't see it unless the spotter manually spots you with Q. Calm down! As a sneaky stealth camo lover I can say I have absolutely no problem with the current system, even if it seems to be a tad unrealistic. Although with a futuristic HUD and tech, this kind of thing is possible, like in Ghost Recon, and would be a tactical system to put in place for a military.

[Klockan]

Wtf are you guys talking about, there are no permanent giant red names over peoples heads currently. You see names over all enemies that are spotted, simply having them on the screen isn't enough. If you look at the videos there are plenty of examples where the enemy don't got a red name over them. However you don't have to spot them, it is enough if one of your allies do. Look here, no red name even though they are at melee range and he is looking at the other player for a short while:
Planetside 2 E3 Stream - Day 1 - Part 1 (feat. Totalbiscuit and Margaret Krohn) - YouTube

[TAA]

furthermore : get rid of those retarded hit indicators and kill messages
it is silly to know "when you hit by meta gaming" or when you killed somebody by "meta gaming" not knowing if you actualy did hit the enemy or killed him spices things up a bit


I agree. I want to at least be able to turn all that crap off. I have been playing shooters for about 20 years. I really dont need that distracting nonsense.

[NoDachi]

I think in one of the interviews they said they wanted to players to feel when they connect a shot through a representation.

[Vreki]

shouldn't it be pretty instant once you see their clothing? see, friendly fire server settings became unpopular once CoD4 became popular and all the console kids couldn't stand moron teammates, and vise versa, they wanted to spam ordinance with no regard to IFF.

its a dumbed down situation that AAA titles adopted. it surely isn't welcome in old school pc fps games. grow some skill and ID your targets before pulling that trigger. its a fair play field. because the other team has to do the same thing. there's no excuse. at all.

You assume that the enemy is standing out in the open under good light conditions. But at the same time this thread is full of people that wants to "blend in with the environment". Well if someone blends into the environment to the degree that I cannot readily id them, then I am going to shoot them and let the devil sort them out.
And I usually do my best to avoid teamkills, but that require a quick and reliable method of identifying friends, even if they are somewhat hidden

[GhettoPrince]

Just pretend you have an IFF system built right into your eyeballs?

Actually, that's one of the most popular implants from the first game.

[Blue Sam]

What is good strategy depends entirely on the rules of the game. And this is after all a game.
If you add much stealth to Planetside then you get a very different Planetside, and they way I see it a Planetside that loses some of what makes it unique.

That said, I dont want permanent red tags over enemies, I just want an instant IFF indicator if I am looking at a friendly. And I mean instant, hovering over a target for 2 secs is usually not an option if you want to live.

Instant IFF is easy. You have two options:

1) Learn to recognise them. Seriously, they're all different shapes, this should not be difficult.
2) If they shoot at you, they're probably hostile.

[Baneblade]

The only floating names we should see are the green ones.

[fvdham]

You need the red names for the "hate" tells, duh.

[Sledgecrushr]

I would like some kind of feedback when I shoot someone. If we dont have hitmarkers then the person I shot should either stagger under the bullet impacts or spew some blood. Both would be good.

[XxAxMayxX]

Im not sure but I think the names are only displayed when someone ha been shot at or spotted. According Mhigby in one of his interveiws with PSU most classes will only be able to spot for their squad unless they have serted for it under infiltrator.

[Tehroth]

There should be no naming systems unless you are in a party/platoon and fellow members should only show up green and only their name and faction show up when you hover your mouse over them. This way people have to rely on armor colors ect like in real life. This could open up possibilities of subterfuge

I think it would be cool if there was a cert that allowed a player to don a enemies colors but be visible enemy if someone moused over them. That why they can confuse stuff during chaotic moments.

[GreatMazinkaise]

Being sneaky isn't a cute trait... especially when active camouflage is available in universe. None of that "subterfuge" nonsense belongs in Planetside.

[Papscal]

Thread is useless unless boris is actually playing beta.

Unless that's true he has no idea how names or marking actually work.

You seem to have missed the point.

[GLaDOS]

I would like some kind of feedback when I shoot someone. If we dont have hitmarkers then the person I shot should either stagger under the bullet impacts or spew some blood. Both would be good.

I'm pretty sure there will be hitmarkers, they were in the E3 footage.