Lessons for PS2 in Blacklight's F2P model

[maradine]

I picked up Blacklight, and tossed a couple bucks into Zen to see what's what.


I like that customization is immediate and visual. Buy gear, see gear.

I like that some things you can purchase - particularly game-altering heavy weapons - still need to be acquired on the field of battle after sufficient performance.
I very much do not like the concept of renting things.
I very much do not like the concept of having to pay $10 for the privilege of storing each individual character loadout.


Leaving comparative gameplay off the table as much as possible, what parts of Blacklight's F2P model should be pointed at for SoE to contemplate? What parts should be labeled as blatant and ridiculous filth to be avoided in PS2 at all costs?

[thegreekboy]

I've never played it, but I agree with your points.

[Biohazard]

I like that customization is immediate and visual. Buy gear, see gear.

I like that some things you can purchase - particularly game-altering heavy weapons - still need to be acquired on the field of battle after sufficient performance.
I very much do not like the concept of renting things.






I think that point two and three only work in Blacklight because it is an arena based shooter. Other than that, I think it is an awesome model. Being that as a free player, I don't feel like I'm at a disadvantage to people that pay. The weapon customization is beautiful IMO. Being able to see REAL NUMBERS of how this compares to what you already have before you buy it is a huge plus.

[Mepper]

Renting actually is a brilliant system imo.

It allows several cool things:

-You can "test" your weapon before purchasing it. You'll never spend 10 bucks on a gun, and then find out it sux.
-Free players can get premium weapons. If you play 2 matches, you should be able to rent a weapon for 24 hours. This way you can get whatever weapon without paying, why complaining about free stuff :D

[Russ]

Renting actually is a brilliant system imo.

It allows several cool things:

-You can "test" your weapon before purchasing it. You'll never spend 10 bucks on a gun, and then find out it sux.
-Free players can get premium weapons. If you play 2 matches, you should be able to rent a weapon for 24 hours. This way you can get whatever weapon without paying, why complaining about free stuff :D

You have the issue of having to get on daily or X times out of the week to keep good weapons. Or having to grind for weeks to then buy the guns.

I like purchasing and owning. If you want to test weapons, have a system like in TF2 where you try them out then they get a discount.

[Xyntech]

Renting is good in Blacklight because you can rent something for an entire day on the amount of currency you get in a single game (or two, at worst). It's actually one of the fairest pricing elements that they have in the game.

[Mathiu]

Renting is good in Blacklight because you can rent something for an entire day on the amount of currency you get in a single game (or two, at worst). It's actually one of the fairest pricing elements that they have in the game.


Ya its definitely a fun game and i love the rental system, but their pricing model starts to fall apart when your spending several dollars just to buy one gun permanently not including all the customization options you then buy on top of that.

And don't even get me started on the node gambling system.

[Joe]

As TB said in his new video £8 for a scope is a bit much :D

Blacklight Retribution Trailer : The Cynical Redub - YouTube

like TB always says micro transaction should be very small amounts of cash like a few pence or maybe £1 not £5 on one part of a gun! :)

[Xyntech]

Ya its definitely a fun game and i love the rental system, but their pricing model starts to fall apart when your spending several dollars just to buy one gun permanently not including all the customization options you then buy on top of that.

I feel like their real money pricing model is the weakest part of their whole cash shop. You're supposed to spend a few bucks to avoid a slightly annoying grind in F2P. I feel like their grind is about right (maybe slightly too far on the annoying side), but the cash shop is too expensive for what you get.

[Plunkies]

Don't charge 10 dollars for a scope.

Or in more general terms, make the player feel like they're getting value for their money. Supply doesn't matter with digital items and they don't cost money to make or distribute so be generous with the people who actually put money into your game.

There are some F2P games that I've genuinely wanted to put money into but couldn't because their prices were so bad that it'd make me feel like a chump to actually pay so much for so little.

[Trafalgar]

People love the renting system?

I tried Blacklight for about an hour (including the tutorial, which ran semi-okay until the robot suit thing, which resulted in graphical stutter somehow, which I also experienced in normal multiplayer all the time) and then uninstalled it because:

1. Instead of unlocking items with XP or in-game currency, you rented them, unless you earned a ludicrous amount of in-game currency to buy them (if that was even allowed for the item). I had enough of that in Battlefield Heroes, where I only wanted to play it occasionally, and the better weapons were necessary to not get killed constantly (because the defaults were terrible), and it was impossible to earn enough by playing a few hours per week to have them all the time using only in-game currency.

2. I didn't get to see how gameplay actually was, because it didn't run well - it stuttered constantly to the point that it was unplayable (besides that TTK seemed incredibly low, judging by how fast I died when someone showed up and shot me when I was trying to see if messing with graphics options would fix the issue). *

3. It installed punkbuster without asking permission or alerting me that it was going to do so, and left it running after I exited the game. If a game is going to install monitoring software on my computer, I expect it to tell me up front that it is going to do so.

All three factors combined into a giant "uninstall" rating for me.

* = I later tried Tribes Ascend and it ran perfectly smoothly, even after I changed the graphics detail from the default of low, to high - of course, I didn't find it particularly fun either, since my first match was over 2 minutes after I joined and my second match consisted of having our base camped for 40 minutes or so and our generator down the entire time with the enemy base guarded well enough that nobody could get their flag out of their base and there was no way to return it anyways because our base always had enemies in and around it. (And there was no way to do anything effective about it, because it's not like PlanetSide, where you could relocate and hit the enemy somewhere else, or call for reinforcements)

(I have a GTX 460 1 GB. It's not the newest and best thing, but at the time I got it, only the 480 was better (if you assume the 470 was worse). It's still an incredibly good card and there shouldn't be any games that require anything better.)

[DOUBLEXBAUGH]

I very much do not like the concept of renting things.


I thought this was dumb at first too, but since it takes about 25 matches just to buy 1 piece permanently for your gun, spending 250 to rent a premade for a day is kinda nice. You get that 250 back in 1 match, and you have a better gun than you can build yourself for a long time.

[Comet]

I'm with you Plunkies.

Tribes Ascend was such a simple game that was so repetative and simple that I actually felt like I was playing a F2P game that was still developing content.

Consequently, I don't spend money on Tribes Ascend.

[DarkSkyes]

2. I didn't get to see how gameplay actually was, because it didn't run well - it stuttered constantly to the point that it was unplayable (besides that TTK seemed incredibly low, judging by how fast I died when someone showed up and shot me when I was trying to see if messing with graphics options would fix the issue). *

Turn off motion blur, you should be able to run on max settings with a 460 (gtx?) Motion blur also made my game run shit until i turned it off now im getting a 2:1 kd. Yeah market place model is terrible and very expensive, there is a lot of trash talk on their forums too as the servers keep going down, bugs etc..

[Khrakhan]

I couldnt stand blacklight. The hit detection seems way off, or the guns are way inaccurate, and I would empty half a clip into somebody, just for them to turn around and kill me with one or two hits.

Tried Tribes Ascend after, and it is by far, a much better game. I still suck at it, but it just takes getting used to skiing and flying all over the place while trying to shoot people at the same time. At least in Tribes, I feel that with practice I can get better and it is my own failings when I get killed; unlike Blacklight where I get screwed by the game's main play style, the spray and pray.

[dafuq]

renting weapons in ps2 = game will die fast


also im not too concerened about this because they already said what u unlock is forever

[Khrakhan]

I just hope they keep the prices reasonable. Blacklight is way expensive, and Tribes even takes quite a bit of time to save up for anything good. When you're having to drag on and on just to save up enough money to purchase any up/side-grades gets a bit annoying after a while and can persuade some players to quit playing because they are just advancing way too slow.

[sameer]

No renting garbage please.

Dont do what G1 did to APB, completely destroy it.

[OnexBigxHebrew]

I couldnt stand blacklight. The hit detection seems way off, or the guns are way inaccurate, and I would empty half a clip into somebody, just for them to turn around and kill me with one or two hits.

Tried Tribes Ascend after, and it is by far, a much better game. I still suck at it, but it just takes getting used to skiing and flying all over the place while trying to shoot people at the same time. At least in Tribes, I feel that with practice I can get better and it is my own failings when I get killed; unlike Blacklight where I get screwed by the game's main play style, the spray and pray.

Read the OP. This thread is about f2p pricing models, and isn't about comparative gameplay.

That said, I'm against renting weapons. Honestly I'm against even buying weapons, unless they're the same as what can be unlocked over time at a certain xp level. Combat arms is an example of a money grab f2p model, seems SOE wants to avoid this. Good news, IMO.

[Knightwyvern]

Read the OP. This thread is about f2p pricing models, and isn't about comparative gameplay.

That said, I'm against renting weapons. Honestly I'm against even buying weapons, unless they're the same as what can be unlocked over time at a certain xp level. Combat arms is an example of a money grab f2p model, seems SOE wants to avoid this. Good news, IMO.

It's hard to compare the models between the two games because beyond the surface "It's an FPS," they are two completely different kinds of FPS. BL:R Is an arena/match based shooter, where as PS2 is an MMO open world shooter. What the player needs out of the business model are very different from one to the other. I feel that renting weapons is the strongest point of BL:R's model, but would fit horribly in PS2.

As far as we all know at this point, you will be able to buy weapons in PS2 from the store using real money. However, it has been stated many times that the weapons in PS2 are sidegrades within a class, not straight upgrades. Certs are responsible for the pure upgrading, and everyone obviously gets certs.

[willaguy]

Yeah, that renting crap sucks. For those of your who dont know what renting in this game is, it's where you purchase a gun for about 3 days for real money, then you have to purchase it again if you want to play with it some more.

[DOUBLEXBAUGH]

Yeah, that renting crap sucks. For those of your who dont know what renting in this game is, it's where you purchase a gun for about 3 days for real money, then you have to purchase it again if you want to play with it some more.

You can rent for GP earned in game too. Most stuff is 200-400 gp for a day, thats 1 or 2 matches. I don't think renting would work with PS2 though as others have mentioned. Also been confirmed by Higby you keep what you buy, there is no renting.

[maradine]

I played a few more rounds with Mepper and Xyntec's feedback in mind - I agree that renting is economically viable based on the currency drop rate. I think what grinds me more is the mental state - "I need to keep playing to get enough GP to make sure I can run this gear again tomorrow."

[Xyntech]

I played a few more rounds with Mepper and Xyntec's feedback in mind - I agree that renting is economically viable based on the currency drop rate. I think what grinds me more is the mental state - "I need to keep playing to get enough GP to make sure I can run this gear again tomorrow."

I find that a weapon is the only thing really worth bothering to rent. Since you only have one weapon at the start, renting a different gun not only gives you some more stopping power, but also allows you to try out the different styles of weapon. Renting armor and shit just seems kind of wasteful to me though, and I think I'll just purchase that kind of stuff permanently as I go.

As long as you are renting one thing, it's just a game or two a day to have the option of renting a gun. You don't even necessarily need to rent the gun if you are using some of the freebie temp unlocked stuff from the level up gift packs.

I'm not sure if I would translate renting in any form to Planetside 2. I certainly wouldn't want it to be a standard method of acquisition. Perhaps they could do something like League of Legends rotating free heroes roster, but instead do it with certain guns and sidegrades, which you have to rent for a small amount of Auraxium instead of getting for free. It would be a good way to try out what you like, just as it's a good way to try out what you like in Blacklight.

[CutterJohn]

I'd still prefer the F2P model they use in the other SOE games. You can play for free, but you're somewhat limited. Meaning, yes, its P2W, but the ONLY thing you can purchase to gain power is the subscription.

It is by far the fairest method out there.

For 1, They don't keep gouging you for unlocks or anything. Just $15 a month, and you're done. The only thing to spend money on other than the sub are visual items. Once you buy it you're on an equal footing.

For 2, It gets *everyone* incentive to buy stuff, lowering what they have to charge and reducing the necessary grind. Right now most F2P games avoid these out of fears of being labeled P2W by self entitled cheapskates who don't want to pay, so they will only have items for the impatient and the people who like funny hats. Since the majority of people in an FPS don't care about such things, it puts the burden of paying for the game on a small minority.

Truly a great system, and I'm sad it won't be used. Its the best compromise I've seen.

[Gandhi]

I don't have anything against the renting system they use because you don't have to spend any real money on it. If you're spending actual money on an item you might as well buy it permanently, the renting system is there to help decrease the GP grind (which is a problem T:A definitely has too).

However building a custom gun is way too expensive, both with GP and Zen. Micro-transactions people, micro. Again T:A suffers from the same problem, I'd have to spend hundreds of $ to unlock everything if it wasn't for the daily sale. That's totally ridiculous for a game that isn't even an MMO.

But most of all I hated the gameplay. Spraying for headshots. The TTK is so low, and the head hitboxes so large, that it's usually down to who sees who first. Truth is I'm already bored of it, the HRV was a nice twist but the core gameplay just leaves me unfulfilled. I'd rather play Tribes, because in spite of its failings the gameplay is actually engaging and pretty challenging too. There's always room to improve, always other classes or roles to get better at, and that's what keeps it fun. In Blacklight once you've learned the right height for headshots you've basically mastered the game.

[Dart]

A lot of people here have spectacularly misunderstood the OP. This was not a "compare blacklight to tribes" thread. It was about the blacklight f2p model. Again, not gameplay.

That in mind, one thing i love in blacklight is the weapon sidegrade options. All can be unlocked by in game currency and all have different benefits and drawbacks. Sure some are OP (incendiary ammo for instance) but broadly they allow you to adapt guns to suit your playstyle.

As a clan we're actually checking out the competitive scene in blacklight and the ability to reconfigure a gun based on your own preferences is a pretty cool option and something I'm really looking forward to in PS if you can alter half as many characteristics.

[Policenaut]

My main problem with Blacklight is everything seems to be just a tad (or a lot in some cases) overpriced. A receiver is $5, all other parts are $2.50 at least. To buy an entire gun it could cost 15-20 dollars. I don't mind shelling a few dollars for a F2P game that I enjoy, but to spend multiple dollars on a single part of a gun, I can't do it.

If PS2 can make it to where guns feel cheap enough to where it's like "Eh, spending a few dollars can't hurt." I think it will do well.

[MrKWalmsley]

renting weapons in ps2 = game will die fast


also im not too concerened about this because they already said what u unlock is forever
^This^
Also I really hope that the rental system is not replicated in PS2, or paying for actual game-play mechanics and items such as certain scopes ect. I know they said it is not P2W but who knows what might happen a year down the line.

[SGT Apone]

I am also against the renting thing.. Didn't like it in BLR and any game I can really think of to be honest.

[TAA]

Renting of weapons is a brilliant move. Its not about making profit for the company from renting, it is about enticing you to buy the weapon for real money at the end of the rental period. It works like this:


Give you access to weapons for low amounts of easily earned game currency. Its not free to rent because people value things they pay for more than free things they receive.
At the end of the rental period offer you a discount to buy the weapon permanently with real cash. You have used the weapon and probably have grown to like it. Combine that sense of ownership to a discount and chances are much higher that you will spend the real cash to buy it than you would if you had never used it in the first place.


Renting allows the company to maximize their profits. Yes items cost more to buy, but face it when you find a gun you really like chances are you will stick with it anyway. Its better for the consumer than buying 15 different cheaper guns and 10 different cheaper attachments until you figure out what you like the most. Chances are before you spend that much on cheaper guns/attachments you will decide to stop spending and put up with your suboptimal gun experience. Instead the company gets you to pay more overall, but you get exactly what you want.

Edit: That is why a VR room is a terrible idea. Players should either be allowed to rent weapons, or have to buy them without the ability to test them first. If you can test all the weapons you like before buying them then the only way for the company to generate decent profits from their weapons sales will be to drive the cost of buying them up to 10-15 bucks per weapon, and to make the grind required to unlock them be ridiculously high.

[GreatMazinkaise]

So you're saying that a rental system allows them to make weapons that no one will want to use and still make a profit on them? How's that a good system (for anyone but SOE)?

[Kran De Loy]

Renting of weapons is a brilliant move. Its not about making profit for the company from renting, it is about enticing you to buy the weapon for real money at the end of the rental period. It works like this:


Give you access to weapons for low amounts of easily earned game currency. Its not free to rent because people value things they pay for more than free things they receive.
At the end of the rental period offer you a discount to buy the weapon permanently with real cash. You have used the weapon and probably have grown to like it. Combine that sense of ownership to a discount and chances are much higher that you will spend the real cash to buy it than you would if you had never used it in the first place.


Renting allows the company to maximize their profits. Yes items cost more to buy, but face it when you find a gun you really like chances are you will stick with it anyway. Its better for the consumer than buying 15 different cheaper guns and 10 different cheaper attachments until you figure out what you like the most. Chances are before you spend that much on cheaper guns/attachments you will decide to stop spending and put up with your suboptimal gun experience. Instead the company gets you to pay more overall, but you get exactly what you want.

Edit: That is why a VR room is a terrible idea. Players should either be allowed to rent weapons, or have to buy them without the ability to test them first. If you can test all the weapons you like before buying them then the only way for the company to generate decent profits from their weapons sales will be to drive the cost of buying them up to 10-15 bucks per weapon, and to make the grind required to unlock them be ridiculously high.

I love the way the renting system worked as well.

Also I see where you're getting the idea that the VR room would be terrible, while a renting system would effectively replace the need for a VR room and it would also cause more purchases in the long run. I have to say I like the VR room more, but it's probably due to nostalgia more than logic. :(

I want SOE to have a successful run with this and to do that they need to earn money off of it so I'm perfectly willing to spend money on something like a rental system. However the pricetags on stuff should never total over $10 for a whole weapon, imo. Best price range is $6-$8 for a single whole weapon with full customization excluding cosmetics.

In game currency for a weapon is something I have no idea about, but I'll try to take a shot in the dark and post my feelings on that too.
Being able to rent a weapon part for a day after maybe half an hour of game play would be pretty sweet to get people hooked on the weapons they're using. BlackLight again just did their pricing too high. Getting roughly 100-300 GP per a maybe 20 minute match then pricing 1 customization rental for a day at 200 is actually favorable for the player (not by a lot, but the player does get to try out pieces one at a time for very little commitment). Pricing 1 customization at nearly 4000 GP for permanent feels a little too high. 2500 would have been the sweet spot for common stuff and then the super things they want to make rare like that Incendiary Ammo that does 70%+40%DoT weapon damage would be priced at an obscene 4000-6000. This is not including cosmetics at all which, imo should be entirely Real Money only.

So you're saying that a rental system allows them to make weapons that no one will want to use and still make a profit on them? How's that a good system (for anyone but SOE)?

It's a good system for SOE, yes.
It's an acceptable system for players as an alternative to having a free VR room.
Also I would much rather have a rental based system than even the thought of a charged VR room. BLeh. My hands feel dirty just typing that thought out.

[Haro]

I think it's important to reach a good balancing point between convenience of payment and availability of grinds. I think Blacklight slips up here: GP is worth far too little in the long run, or is too difficult to acquire in large quantities, while Zen offers a ton of convenience but sometimes at quite the cost.

Stuff like renting is pretty interesting and I like discussing it in terms of Blacklight's meta-game, but frankly I don't think it would work for planetside, at least not at the moment. I'd prefer if Planetside avoided putting all weapons and vehicles on in-game currency, instead putting much of the basics on a leveling system much like Call of [REDACTED.] I'd have no problems monetizing the weapons from the beginning, however, to let people unlock them ahead of time, as well as the grind for weapons is reasonable. XP boosters will likely have much more of an effect with certs, which I'm fine with a long grind, but I feel like most weapons should be available fairly quickly so players can fill in or specialize in a variety of roles.

[TheInferno]

Ah, Blacklight. I've hit level 10, and I usually pick up The Burning Man (a combat rifle) for 200 GP. That's a daily rent, but I make that much in two matches (a normal match is something between 120-150, so two matches means you're good for a day of play, and you can even save up past that. In fact, it's quite easy to... I'm at around 4500k, getting close to where I can actually buy a weapon or a weapon piece permanently. I think I'll grab the Combat Rifle reciever.

The other big thing about Blacklight? It doesn't feel like I'm treading water like I do in, say, Tribes: Ascend. As much as I enjoy that game (quite fun) if I want any of the really powerful weapons, like the MIRV, I have to play a lot and kind of grind the XP for it. The new XP system helps, but even then it basically feels like pushing a boulder up a hill, only for it to fall off a sheer cliff and have to do the same to the next hill.

In Blacklight, I'm not forced to play the game repeatedly just to get something I want to use. If I want to, I can instantly rent for a day, play a few matches and earn my 200-400 GP back, and figure out if I like the weapon/armor/modification or not. If I do like it, I can simply keep picking it up, or grab a similar premade weapon (I actually grabbed The Burning Man not because of the nice incendiary ammo, but because I liked that reciever with that scope) which is a simple 200 GP, and then start saving the rest up so I can afford to unlock it permenantly on a custom gun (what I'm doing now).

Now, should Planetside 2 use the same model as Blacklight? No no no. However, I do hope it keeps the two major points I like about the above, and these are fairly abstract.

1. Do not make things seem unreachable unless you pay money. Even if they're only sidegrades, I'd like to have the choices.
2. Do not make it feel like we're "grinding" resources. Make it feel like we're rewarded for playing the game.

I'm a lot more inclined to play Blacklight recently than Tribes. Tribes may honestly have better gameplay, but I'd rather feel like I'm playing a game rather than working a job.

EDIT: Something I realized though, the store isn't perfect. There's no way I'd actually spend money in it! :p Seriously though, it's kind of ridiculous come to think of it...

Also, please please please don't let the chat look like the global chat in that game. Please. My god.

[TAA]

I want SOE to have a successful run with this and to do that they need to earn money off of it so I'm perfectly willing to spend money on something like a rental system. However the pricetags on stuff should never total over $10 for a whole weapon, imo. Best price range is $6-$8 for a single whole weapon with full customization excluding cosmetics.


That is my feeling as well. If I couldnt test drive weapons before buying them I would be willing to pay $3-4 per weapon, $1-2 per attachment, another $1-2 for cosmetic modification for the weapon. If attachments can be purchased once and used for any weapon I would be willing to pay $3-5 for each. Once I found a weapon I was happy with (which could take quite a few purchases) I would probably just start unlocking the rest of the gear with in-game credits.

If I could test drive weapons I would test drive all the weapons and attachments before buying them, then I would only buy 1-2 fully kitted out weapons for each class instead of the large number I would otherwise. Prices would probably have to be about triple what you and I would like to pay per weapon for profits to stay about the same overall.

[QuantumMechanic]

I am very much put off by the idea of paying RL money to "rent" an in-game item. I first noticed this in APB:Reloaded when they introduced leased guns into the beta... and I just stopped playing it.

[TheInferno]

Oh yeah, I'm never doing that, but GP is in-game currency. Doesn't cost any money.

More of a "buy it for now" for people who might only play a couple of times a month or something, or a "try it out" for those who play more often.

[MorioMortis]

I really can't see this working if there is no way to at least try a gun in VR or for very cheap in-game currency before buying anything, be it with in-game or real currency. Looking at most F2Ps, a lot of players are reticent to even buy anything even with in-game money because they don't want to waste their money, and are therefore even less inclined to spend real money.

I say that rather than trying to have people buy 2-3 times more guns than they really need until they find the "right one", they should try to get the big part of the market that doesn't want to spend a lot (and especially not on an uncertain item) to buy 1 or 2 things they know they want and like; as soon as you make them paying customers, repeat purchases are much easier, plus the customer feels like he got what he wanted.

Also, as far as pricing goes, I think lower (within reason) is better; if guns were 1$ each, I wouldn't mind buying 10 of them, but if a single gun was 5$, I wouldn't buy a single one. Considering the fact that there is no production cost related to my purchase of the items themselves, the best way to increase profit is to maximize the amount of sales, by finding the sweet spot at which greedy bastards like myself still find it okay to pay something rather than being a f2p'er. Remember, any amount of money we spend is profit, no matter what we buy, so it is always better to aim for a lower price point than a higher one (worst case, you make less money then you could have, but, considering the average consumer psychology, you'll probably end up making more money if things are cheaper based on a proportionately bigger consumer base).

If we look at an example of this tendency, every time Steam gives 50% off a title, their profits skyrocket because, on average, the consumer base is 5 to 10 times bigger, and as the games have no physical cost, this translates into more profit (and happier customers, who end up spending more than they would have had it not been for lower prices).

Tl:dr The cheaper the better, as it gives you more buyers and makes people spend more without feeling like they got scammed. Also, let us try stuff. Really.

[Kran De Loy]

That is my feeling as well. If I couldnt test drive weapons before buying them I would be willing to pay $3-4 per weapon, $1-2 per attachment, another $1-2 for cosmetic modification for the weapon. If attachments can be purchased once and used for any weapon I would be willing to pay $3-5 for each. Once I found a weapon I was happy with (which could take quite a few purchases) I would probably just start unlocking the rest of the gear with in-game credits.

If I could test drive weapons I would test drive all the weapons and attachments before buying them, then I would only buy 1-2 fully kitted out weapons for each class instead of the large number I would otherwise. Prices would probably have to be about triple what you and I would like to pay per weapon for profits to stay about the same overall.

Since people generally are less inclined to part with real money than they are with in game currency I figure the reverse would be more common. Spending in-game currency on renting and real money on permanent acquisitions.

Also I like the point that MorioMortis made- "I say that rather than trying to have people buy 2-3 times more guns than they really need until they find the "right one", they should try to get the big part of the market that doesn't want to spend a lot (and especially not on an uncertain item) to buy 1 or 2 things they know they want and like; as soon as you make them paying customers, repeat purchases are much easier, plus the customer feels like he got what he wanted."

That is probably what the Blacklight people tried to do with the pre-made weapon builds. Good point.

[Absentis]

The one and only thing I want to see from Blacklight's model is the ability to buy anything that affects direct gameplay (weapons, attachments, etc.) with in-game currency or actual money. XP boosters, skins, and other products that don't fit under the previous category should be able to be bought with real money only. Optimally, a subscription option would only give a monthly (possibly exclusive) skin pack and XP boosts. I don't really have an opinion either way on renting.

Pricing should be fair for cash and in-game currency. I would pay $2 at most for a weapon and attachments for it in a bundle pack, $1 for a skin at most, and $5 for a 'super saver pack' type of deal that includes however many skins/weapons. I wouldn't pay for a subscription or XP boosts at all, so I have no opinion on those prices. As said before, keep prices relatively low to sell more. Low prices make the consumer feel like they are getting a good deal, and a happy customer is one that will come back.

[Kran De Loy]

The one and only thing I want to see from Blacklight's model is the ability to buy anything that affects direct gameplay (weapons, attachments, etc.) with in-game currency or actual money. XP boosters, skins, and other products that don't fit under the previous category should be able to be bought with real money only. Optimally, a subscription option would only give a monthly (possibly exclusive) skin pack and XP boosts. I don't really have an opinion either way on renting.

Pricing should be fair for cash and in-game currency. I would pay $2 at most for a weapon and attachments for it in a bundle pack, $1 for a skin at most, and $5 for a 'super saver pack' type of deal that includes however many skins/weapons. I wouldn't pay for a subscription or XP boosts at all, so I have no opinion on those prices. As said before, keep prices relatively low to sell more. Low prices make the consumer feel like they are getting a good deal, and a happy customer is one that will come back.


True keeping the prices low will make for a larger volume of purchases, but 'fair' pricing is relative. Price of living, and people's judgement of what they're willing to spend on something, changes from county to county and more drastically from state to state.

Also the demand for an item will always bring the value of that item up regardless of an infinite supply when it comes to electronic goods because both the developers and the players spend time in creating or acquiring those digital items.

[Absentis]

True keeping the prices low will make for a larger volume of purchases, but 'fair' pricing is relative. Price of living, and people's judgement of what they're willing to spend on something, changes from county to county and more drastically from state to state.

Of course. What I meant that as keeping a balance between price and play time. For example, don't make a weapon cost $5 with actual money and take 2 months worth of in-game currency (playing at casual hours, say 3-ish per day) for the same weapon. Make the in-game currency take longer than real cash purchases, but not Tribes-like.

[gufftroad]

BL:R has alot good going for it and i hope PS2 gets an idea or 2 from it it seems like a long grind to get guns permanently but ive clocked about 20 hours and have 2 receivers and a scope and a barrel to go along. renting guns is great i got to try all the different styles before i picked the ones i wanted and focused on them

[Arkanor]

I'm mixed on the "temporary unlock" concept, I generally don't like it because it pushes up the cost of permanent unlocks.

Blacklight's customization is great, but I hate the feeling of getting nickeled and dimed on every single thing. I plan to put money in, but if it's a ridiculous amount to get things I'm just going to be turned off. I don't want the options to be "Pay $10 for one gun or grind it out for 200 hours" like Tribes either...

[Vetto]

I am not a Fan of BL, Way to much nickle and diming, While some idea are good. Even thou TB disagree it still VERY much feels like a "buy power" game to me.

[Nash]

Renting stuff seems like a good idea aslong as you can still permanently unlock something.
Rent a gun for a couple of days,.. try it out. If you like it, you but it. If you don't like it, you only lost ingame currency.

[xnorb]

The "buy loadout slots" is the worst thing possible.
Also seeing price tags on every single freaking item is horrible.
Renting - no fan of it.
Just like i don't like weapon/attachment unlocks the equipment should be
there right from the start for everybody to use.

In FPS games skill should be the determining factor, not which weapon
you use or which attachments you baught/unlocked.

[Kran De Loy]

The difference in power (which attachments are best) and the renting system are two different things.

As far the difference in power, Higby has said that the goal in difference in power for PS2 between a 5 year player and a 5 minute player is at most 20%.

Power is a very difficult thing to measure when taking into account that the 20% is based on the 5 year player getting all the modifications he wants for his personal play style. Because of that, TTK should be used as the measuring stick for differences in power. A player on a 5 year account could kill a target in 4 seconds, but put the same player in the seat of a brand new account and it should only take him 5 seconds to kill the same target.

The problems with BL:R is that the TTK is already less than 3 seconds and less than 2 in most cases. Because of that, minor differences between players and weapons becomes much more sensitive and is why I agree that BL:R feels like a Pay to Win game even tho, technically, it's not.

Also that BL:R's balancing between weapons doesn't really take into account player skill all that much, imo.

[TAA]

The "buy loadout slots" is the worst thing possible.
Also seeing price tags on every single freaking item is horrible.
Renting - no fan of it.
Just like i don't like weapon/attachment unlocks the equipment should be
there right from the start for everybody to use.

In FPS games skill should be the determining factor, not which weapon
you use or which attachments you baught/unlocked.


Buying loadout slots is a great use of a cash store. By buying a loadout slot all you are buying is convenience. You can still change the gear you use manually. I think its an excellent example of what sort of thing should be sold for cash only.

I have personally been converted over to the f2p model. I dont mind if there is a price tag on everything, and I dont mind if you can pay to get slightly more powerful items - as long as the starting items are always competitive at every level and as long as you can get everything that gives additional power via playing normally for a long time (ie. with substantial grind). For example the unlock rate in a typical COD or BF game is too fast for a f2p game, but the unlock rate in Tribes is a little (just a little) too slow.

F2P allows me to preview the game for free and to support it to the extent I think it deserves, while also allowing people that have no money to still play and have a good time. If I like the game I am fully prepared to pay a fair amount of money to match what I think the game is worth. In the case of an MMO that keeps me entertained for years that would be in the hundreds of dollars. In the case of a AAA FPS title it would probably be no more than $70-90 depending on the shooter, though additional content could get me to fork over more. A mediocre FPS title would be lucky to get $10 out of me, while a game that is good but not great gets a more moderate sum (eg. I felt that I would have paid up to $40 for Tribes upfront so that is what I sunk into it).

Its a better system than paying full price for a game when it first hits the market then realizing that the game wasnt worth anywhere near what you paid. Its not better if you are the type of person who only buys games when they are on sale months or years after they have been released.

[Kran De Loy]

Buying loadout slots is a great use of a cash store. By buying a loadout slot all you are buying is convenience. You can still change the gear you use manually. I think its an excellent example of what sort of thing should be sold for cash only.

Though they really should have a minimum of 2 loadouts for new players and expanding past that for cash. Like League of Legends. Gives a taste of the convenience whereas the current policy of only granting one base loadout seems more of an affront to the player.

[xnorb]

F2P allows me to preview the game for free and to support it to the extent I think it deserves, while also allowing people that have no money to still play and have a good time.

And here's your flaw.
As soon as it turns pay to win (and it does if you offer exclusive, better
content like weapons or upgrades for the paying players) it's difficult to
"have a good time" as non-paying player.
The 10th time you get killed by that payshop weapon with the baught
expanded clip it starts getting frustrating.

You know, i'm all in for giving the devs the money they deserve.
But IMO they only deserve the money if the core gameplay is not limited for
those who are there to play with the paying customers.

[Dart]

Ok let's clear up a few things:

I doubt there will be a renting system; Higby has already said once you buy it, it's yours.

He's also said, numerous times, you will not be able to buy guns with station cash. The are a "power item" and you will only be able to unlock them in game.

Finally the persistent aspect of PS2 will encourage a lot more people to spend money on their charactersthan I'm bl:r i suspect. Far more like WoW or rift, people will become attached to their character more than in say an arena fps. So cosmetic stuff will generate income.

[TAA]

Though they really should have a minimum of 2 loadouts for new players and expanding past that for cash.

I think 1 loadout per class would be very fair.


And here's your flaw.
As soon as it turns pay to win (and it does if you offer exclusive, better
content like weapons or upgrades for the paying players) it's difficult to
"have a good time" as non-paying player.

As long as the items are not exclusive to paying customers there is no problem. People can pay nothing and grind for an item, or they can pay and get it quickly. I dont see the problem. One person might have a lot of time but cant afford to pay. Another has no time but can afford the money. What of people who dont have the time nor the money? They should wait for a Steam sale and pick up another game, or be content to play with the basic items when they do get a chance to play.



He's also said, numerous times, you will not be able to buy guns with station cash. The are a "power item" and you will only be able to unlock them in game.

Finally the persistent aspect of PS2 will encourage a lot more people to spend money on their charactersthan I'm bl:r i suspect. Far more like WoW or rift, people will become attached to their character more than in say an arena fps. So cosmetic stuff will generate income.

I thought the idea was that you could buy costumes for real cash only, and you could buy guns for money or currency earned in-game. The key was that the guns were only sidegrades of the standard items so that the game wasnt pay to win.

Of course that is a lovely marketing half-truth. A sidegrade is a power boost in the right situation. Tell anybody with a fire and forget rocket launcher to choose: a rocket that takes 3 shots to kill a tank but fires more quickly, or a rocket that takes 2 shots to kill a tank but reloads more slowly. Which one do you think they will pick? They will pick the one that exposes them to the enemy the least - ie. the one that kills the tank in less shots. That is a power upgrade not a sidegrade. Every weapon will have their nice cutoff points where if you choose just the right sidegrade version it will be substantially more effective in a particular situation. People that pay cash will get those weapons quickly, and will have lovely additional loadout slots ready to switch into as the new situation requires. For example I will have my loadout for busting TR tanks, and I will have another loadout ready to bust heavy NC tanks. For anti-infantry loadouts I might have a loadout with a weapon that has less drop off in damage for fighting in the open, and one with a high damage drop off but more damage up close for fighting near bases. And so on.

I think that the cosmetic stuff will make money, but not as much as weapons and boosters. Sure people that love the game and their character will go and buy some new outfits, but outfits dont change the game experience. Using a different gun or using a booster does. That is what people will continue to buy over time to keep having a more varied game experience.

[Gandhi]

Buying loadout slots is a great use of a cash store. By buying a loadout slot all you are buying is convenience. You can still change the gear you use manually. I think its an excellent example of what sort of thing should be sold for cash only.
I find it kind of offensive when you're only given one by default, but maybe that's just me. There's a difference between paying for convenience and being nickle and dimed at every opportunity.

[MorioMortis]

I find it kind of offensive when you're only given one by default, but maybe that's just me. There's a difference between paying for convenience and being nickle and dimed at every opportunity.

I agree, and, in BL's case, it's even worse because it's not nickles and dimes, it's 5 or 10$ for something that provides little more than basic utility that should have been there from the start.

2 loadouts per class, or making them unlockable with in game currency (one of the good aspects of Tribes, and they are very cheap too), is pretty much minimal, just to be able to switch things out on the fly without it taking 2 minutes of the battle just to change your FS HA and AV launcher for a machinegun and a AA launcher.

[TeaLeaf]

Renting is a pretty nice idea and Blacklight does it pretty well. It hasn't worked in a lot of games, but what makes Blacklight different is that the rental prices are all fairly low and you have the option of 24hr rentals. I can do a 24 rental of a load of gear before playing tonight and then earn back the money plus extra for renewing the items the next day. You also get a free three day trial of most of the items when you get access to them so you don't waste money on stuff you won't use.

The default gear is also pretty good, the only real disadvantage is that it doesn't come with any tactical gear and it doesn't use up all its grenade slots. The basic assault rifle (usually with a different scope) is actually very popular even among richer players because it's overall the most versatile build.

I've spent £17 in game so far (2000 zen) which got me 3 pieces of amour and the revolver all as permanent which I thought was pretty fair as those are all items I will probably use every game. I don't see why anyone would pay for weapon parts though as it's fun to switch weapons every game or two and it costs like $4 for a muzzle mod. The price is good for items like the heal injector or cloak which are fairly versatile, but no one is going to fork out $20 for all the guns parts they need for a permanent custom weapon.

[TAA]

2 loadouts per class, or making them unlockable with in game currency (one of the good aspects of Tribes, and they are very cheap too), is pretty much minimal, just to be able to switch things out on the fly without it taking 2 minutes of the battle just to change your FS HA and AV launcher for a machinegun and a AA launcher.

I dont understand this. BF only has one loadout per class and there is no problem with that. Having multiple loadouts per class is a luxury. I even recall that I paid extra for that luxury in BFBC2.

[MorioMortis]

The price is good for items like the heal injector or cloak which are fairly versatile, but no one is going to fork out $20 for all the guns parts they need for a permanent custom weapon.

And therein lies the problem; if that whole custom gun had costed 5$, you would have probably bought one (maybe even 2 or 3). As it stands, the company loses out on a lot of potential sales related to its best feature by virtue of it being overpriced, and the client feels like he's being locked away from a lot of the enjoyment of the gun (the heavy gun customization) simply because he has to spend so much to get access to a tiny part of it. In essence, everybody loses when things are too expensive, and the game dies much quicker than it could of (due to lack of interest from the true f2pers and because the game isn't making as much money), therefore further reducing potential income by losing more clients down the line.

The virtual economy is, by definition, a post-scarcity one, but everyone is still acting as if it where a standard, supply and demand based one, selling items at what is an abstract notion of "value" when in fact they have none whatsoever except in the eyes of the customer. If it doesn't cost anything to produce an item, than their is no minimum cost to recup, and to maximize your earnings, you want to price things at what the customer believes is the value of what he is buying (hint, a lot of us are cheap, so we don't really attribute a lot of value to small subsets of our entertainment when we live in a society where entertainment, due to the Internet, is already a post-scarcity resource, so the lower, the better). Of course, although lower prices tend to result in exponential sales, their is a soft cap on people's purchasing desire (most of us probably don't think it necessary to buy every single thing if we know we hate some of them), and as such, you want to strike a balance between demand and cost, a balance that is currently heavily skewed towards the cost side, resulting in overall lower incomes.

EDIT: I do agree that in some games, like the BF series, one loadout per class is acceptable, but due to the constant nature of warfare in PS, there is no real "downtime" to swap things out, and it would be nice (although not essential) to be able to do so rapidly.

[Goku]

He's also said, numerous times, you will not be able to buy guns with station cash. The are a "power item" and you will only be able to unlock them in game.


That doesn't ring any bells for me at least. I thought you could buy weapons with cash, but you could still get them in game methods only taking longer. I know I went back and forth with Smed on this in one thread. He said it won't be more powerful, but only variants that may potentially suit another players style more. I guess this could of changed as that was awhile ago.

[Astrok]

That doesn't ring any bells for me at least. I thought you could buy weapons with cash, but you could still get them in game methods only taking longer. I know I went back and forth with Smed on this in one thread. He said it won't be more powerful, but only variants that may potentially suit another players style more. I guess this could of changed as that was awhile ago.

As far as i know they stated that every single equipment thing can be unlocked in game like weaps,etc only a few things where it just looks different but doesnt gives u any better weaps or upgraded can be bought with real money only.

so u basicly can unlock it all except some visual stuff for a different look then others.

[infected]

dart is wrong.

BL-style renting (try before you buy) would be a welcomed feature in ps2.

also you will be able to pay station cash for weapons, or a lot of in-game currency that will take time to accumulate. the camo stuff is the stuff that is only gained through station cash only.

[Plunkies]

TB did a WTF is for super monday night combat. And once again it's a game that doesn't understand the MICRO part of micro transaction. The game itself is very solid but the prices basically kill the game for most people.

I've already bought 20 bucks worth of SOE cash before PS2 has even come out so they're already doing way better than most F2P games with me. I just hope they realize that making the consumer actually feel like they're getting VALUE for their money is very important. You don't want people feeling like they're being scammed every time they pony up some cash.