Who should get access to assault rifles?

[Vydofnir]

Obviously this is the sort of question that will get answered in beta, but this has been on my mind for quite a while now, and I'm curious to see what all of you think based on what we've seen thus far.

From what I've seen, the list of classes that will be able to utilize the AR ranges from all non-MAX classes to the combat medic exclusively. Based on what you've been able to gather so far, which classes do you think should have access to the AR? What tradeoffs do you think certain classes should be forced to make for that option (e.g. an engineer giving up the turret)? Why?

Personally, I think that the Cycler, Pulsar, and Gauss Rifle are the most iconic weapons of their respective factions, and should be accessible to all classes (except of course the MAX), but I'm much more interested in what you all have to say about it.

[Dougnifico]

Medics. They should be a medium assault class that can heal people. Engys can have SMG's, PDW's, Shotguns, or maybe Carbines. LA should be Carbines and lower. HA should be LMG's, maybe DMR's/BR's, maybe AR's. Infiltrator should be Snipers, SMG's, and PDW's.

[SKYeXile]

yea i thought it was the light assault class that got the assault rifles as their exclusive weapon, that looks to be changed though. But really it all depends on the way classes are designed.

the medic getting what should in theory been the longest range may not make a whole lot sense, but the light assault having it either doesn't really either, they can move the fastest and close caps so they should favour closer range weapons like carbines or smgs.

The engineer, it depends on its relative armour to the medic, if it has more armour then it should have shorter ranged weapons.

the heavy assault has the most armour so it has close range weapons, but they can potentially kill more people per clip.

[Accuser]

Medics. They should be a medium assault class that can heal people. Engys can have SMG's, PDW's, Shotguns, or maybe Carbines. LA should be Carbines and lower. HA should be LMG's, maybe DMR's/BR's, maybe AR's. Infiltrator should be Snipers, SMG's, and PDW's.

That sounds about right. Medic definitely, HA probably, Engi possibly. Not LA or Infil.

[Vydofnir]

Medics. They should be a medium assault class that can heal people. Engys can have SMG's, PDW's, Shotguns, or maybe Carbines. LA should be Carbines and lower. HA should be LMG's, maybe DMR's/BR's, maybe AR's. Infiltrator should be Snipers, SMG's, and PDW's.

This goes along with what we've seen thus far from the E3 streams and such, but we know there will be a great deal of diversity within each class. For example, the developers have stated that infiltrators will have access to sniper rifles, but only if they opt for a limited cloak. Can you foresee any reasonable tradeoffs wherein a LA or an Engineer (or any other class for that matter) would be able to equip an AR?

[OutlawDr]

Ultimately who gets what will be based on class balance. There is little room for class entitlement except for the core class roles its all based around (that is medics heal, infiltrators cloak, ect..)

Also when the devs talk about "tradeoffs" its not across weapons or equipment...not from we've seen in the videos. In other words, taking an assault rifle is not going to prevent you from taking certain equipment like turrets. Not unless they share the same slot (such as primary weapon slot or "tool" slot). Tradeoffs are things like 'better accuracy but less damage'. They are tradeoffs of weapon stats.

So you can't do things like 'when the Engineer takes AR, they can't take turrets'. The customization system doesn't work that way...again based on what we've seen.

[Reefpirate]

Also when the devs talk about "tradeoffs" its not across weapons or equipment...not from we've seen in the videos. In other words, taking an assault rifle is not going to prevent you from taking certain equipment like turrets.

That's not entirely true. The infiltrator is limited in what cloaks it can wear with a sniper rifle equipped is one example I can think of. This demonstrates that you can limit other equipment slots based on what is equipped.

[OutlawDr]

That's not entirely true. The infiltrator is limited in what cloaks it can wear with a sniper rifle equipped is one example I can think of. This demonstrates that you can limit other equipment slots based on what is equipped.

That might be a special exception, or something the devs are no longer doing. Watching guys at E3 customize their characters, I saw no way of doing this. Not unless the sniper rifles says something like 'when equipped, you can't take X cloak'. That means you have to do the same to every equipment and weapon with special exceptions. AR would have specifically say 'you can't take turrets', stuff like that. This seems very messy and inelegant way of doing things. And a nightmare for the devs to keep track of. But again, Ive seen no evidence that these sorts of "tradeoffs" exist.

[Vydofnir]

That might be a special exception, or something the devs are no longer doing. Watching guys at E3 customize their characters, I saw no way of doing this. Not unless the sniper rifles says something like 'when equipped, you can't take X cloak'. That means you have to do the same to every equipment and weapon with special exceptions. AR would have specifically say 'you can't take turrets', stuff like that. This seems very messy and inelegant way of doing things. And a nightmare for the devs to keep track of. But again, Ive seen no evidence that these sorts of "tradeoffs" exist.

Matt Higby gives the infiltrator example at 55:10 of this video:
http://youtu.be/onvySU5NkFo
Granted this video is pre-E3, but only by a week, and I'm pretty sure they were in the same build. Also keep in mind that during the E3 demo each class seemed to be limited to a single weapon type.

I don't think this sort of tradeoff would be that big of an obstacle to the developers. All it would take is a message saying "cannot be used with X weapon" in the item's text box, and a few Boolean statements to check if a weapon was compatible with a given ability. From a UI perspective, it would be pretty easy to shade out weapons that are incompatible with the current load-out. Personally I hope they include these sorts of tradeoffs because I think it would add a whole lot of depth to each class.

[WorldOfForms]

A simple and easy to understand method may be that as an infiltrator, you have your equipment slot, which can either have a sniper rifle, or a prolonged cloaking device. Unless you equip that "cloak extender", you can only cloak for a short time.

Makes it totally obvious to the user how it works.

[Neurotoxin]

All but MAX.

[Accuser]

Personally I hope they include these sorts of tradeoffs because I think it would add a whole lot of depth to each class.

Indeed. Higby specifically said that LA has access to "carbines, SMGs and shotguns", but some on this forum (not me, mind you) are desperate for LA to have a longer range weapon. Perhaps that could be balanced with a weaker jumpjet, or one with a much longer recharge time than the standard LA has.

[Joe Soldier]

Medics and Assault classes. These guys are the most that step into the line of fire either giving medical attention to friendlies or rushing the front lines. These classes need a reliable standard issue rifle to get their job done right. The engineer could probably use light carbines to defend themselves while providing combat support.

[Ratstomper]

LA and HA. If you ain't assault, you don't get an assault rifle.

Engys and medics should get submachine guns or shotguns.

[Electrofreak]

I have a problem with LA using powerful ranged weapons. I suspect it'll just turn them into ranged campers, in elevated positions where Infils with sniper rifles may not even be able to hit them. They're supposed to be in a role of short range shock trooper, not super-mobile sniper.

[Accuser]

I have a problem with LA using powerful ranged weapons. I suspect it'll just turn them into campers, in elevated positions where Infils with sniper rifles may not even be able to hit them.

Exactly. This should go double for a game with no killcam like PS2. And that's why Higby specifically listed "SMGs, carbines and shotguns" for LA (dual commentary w/ TB). There's a very good reason LA won't have long range weapons in Beta and it's unlikely they'll be getting any.

Medics on the other hand, can't close the gap like LA and can't take fire pushing in like HA. And where the engi has a turret for range, medic needs a medium-range assault rifle.

[Ratstomper]

I have a problem with LA using powerful ranged weapons. I suspect it'll just turn them into ranged campers, in elevated positions where Infils with sniper rifles may not even be able to hit them. They're supposed to be in a role of short range shock trooper, not super-mobile sniper.

Did I miss something? Are ARs sniper rifles now? I can't see an AR being that good for range. Maybe battle rifles, but not ARs.

Medics on the other hand, can't close the gap like LA and can't take fire pushing in like HA. And where the engi has a turret for range, medic needs a medium-range assault rifle.

That's why they have friends. HAs cant heal themselves, medics can't stand toe to toe against assault classes (excepting use of tactics). I don't understand why medics should have weaponry on-par with proper assault classes.

EDIT: Also, have you seen the limited turn radius on the turret? Considering it's something you can only deploy once, it can only viably be used to cover doorways and guard objectives from a single direction; a pretty niche purpose and hardly any kind of assault weapon.

[Electrofreak]

Did I miss something? Are ARs sniper rifles now? I can't see an AR being that good for range. Maybe battle rifles, but not ARs.



That's why they have friends. HAs cant heal themselves, medics can't stand toe to toe against assault classes (excepting use of tactics). I don't understand why medics should have weaponry on-par with proper assault classes.

Assault rifles are generally considered to be weapons with an effective firing range of 1000 feet or more. They tend to be quite effective at range, particularly when their semi-automatic or burst-fire modes are used. They are not sniper rifles nor battle rifles (which are specifically designed for long range combat), but still can be very effective at range while maintaining versatility.

Let me put it this way; I wouldn't mind LA getting assault rifles if I didn't know that they would just go find little nooks and crannies above the battlefield and plink away at people. That's really not their purpose.

[Accuser]

That's why they have friends. HAs cant heal themselves, medics can't stand toe to toe against assault classes (excepting use of tactics). I don't understand why medics should have weaponry on-par with proper assault classes.

Then you don't understand how the "combat medic" works. Notice the word "combat" in the class title as opposed to "hide behind his friends and heal medic". LA won't have assault rifles according to Higby because they're close-range fighters. Medics and Engis should be able to engage at medium range since they don't have that gap-closing ability. If the turret is insufficient for an Engi to function at medium range, then it would be justified to give them assault rifles as well.

[mintyc]

personaly i am leaning towards every class other than the Infiltrator, MAX (although i wouldent mind a slower fireing heavy virsion for the MAX) and Light assualt (LA just strikes me as a more mid to close range class and i would hope that the SMG is a little better at the shoter ranges than the assualt rifles)

[Ratstomper]

Assault rifles are generally considered to be weapons with an effective firing range of 1000 feet or more. They tend to be quite effective at range, particularly when their semi-automatic or burst-fire modes are used. They are not sniper rifles nor battle rifles (which are specifically designed for long range combat), but still can be very effective at range while maintaining versatility.

Let me put it this way; I wouldn't mind LA getting assault rifles if I didn't know that they would just go find little nooks and crannies above the battlefield and plink away at people. That's really not their purpose.

In real life they do. I've NEVER seen an AR do that in a video game. Even if it could be used that way, you've still got your own assault classes that have the same range, plus snipers.

I think it MAY be a legitimate concern, but it will depend on exactly how well the ARs work in game. If they're used more like real assault rifles and not the run'n' gun M4s and AK47s we've seen in a lot of shooters, then I'm ok with giving other tools to the LA.

Then you don't understand how the "combat medic" works. Notice the word "combat" in the class title as opposed to "hide behind his friends and heal medic". LA won't have assault rifles according to Higby because they're close-range fighters. Medics and Engis should be able to engage at medium range since they don't have that gap-closing ability. If the turret is insufficient for an Engi to function at medium range, then it would be justified to give them assault rifles as well.

I understand exactly what a "combat medic" is. A medic would just be someone who only patches people up. A medic with an SMG that's moving with the squad and fighting when no one needs aid is a perfectly viable combat medic. Medics shouldn't be heavy hitters in a squad, that's the assault classes and MAX units job. Same with an engineer; give them the tools to fend off nearby attackers so they can work and help the squad if they can. Don't give them the same stuff assault classes get.

Support classes have bigger fish to fry than acting just like HAs.

[CutterJohn]

In real life they do. I've NEVER seen an AR do that in a video game. Even if it could be used that way, you've still got your own assault classes that have the same range, plus snipers.

Battlefield has generally portrayed assault rifles in that way. They weren't quite as accurate as snipers, and had more damage falloff at range, but you could effectively countersnipe with them single shot, and be effective sniping at mid ranges, though without the one shot kill capability. So no, they weren't true 'sniper rifles', but using them as ghetto snipers is not a fools errand.

They also had plenty of semi auto sniper rifles that were viable as CQC weapons. Obviously not as good as SMGs and shotguns.


Support classes have bigger fish to fry than acting just like HAs.

Support gets the standard rifle. Heavys get the LMG variants. LA gets the carbine variant, which doesn't actually mean its worse.. a carbine is just a short, lightweight variant of a battle rifle. The M1 and M1 carbine were not significantly different in capability.

The main thing the three major variants do is allow them to balance the weapons individually between the classes while still maintaining the fiction of a standardized set of armaments for the troops.

[Ratstomper]

Battlefield has generally portrayed assault rifles in that way. They weren't quite as accurate as snipers, and had more damage falloff at range, but you could effectively countersnipe with them single shot, and be effective sniping at mid ranges, though without the one shot kill capability. So no, they weren't true 'sniper rifles', but using them as ghetto snipers is not a fools errand.

They also had plenty of semi auto sniper rifles that were viable as CQC weapons. Obviously not as good as SMGs and shotguns.

I feel like, depending on how they act in game, ARs may be something LAs can use very effectively and it may just come down to it being a sniper role to keep an eye out for LA ambushes on high spots. Taking too much range from LAs will make them far less viable in most non-base areas.

Support gets the standard rifle. Heavys get the LMG variants. LA gets the carbine variant, which doesn't actually mean its worse.. a carbine is just a short, lightweight variant of a battle rifle. The M1 and M1 carbine were not significantly different in capability.

The main thing the three major variants do is allow them to balance the weapons individually between the classes while still maintaining the fiction of a standardized set of armaments for the troops.

Right. I'm fine with that. I wasn't sure if they were going to try and pack a ton of different weapons in the game or just make variants. I just don't see how giving a medic the same weapon as a HA would make a whole lot of sense when the medic is a distinctly designed class.

[Absentis]

I would only give medics assault rifles. HA's have LMG's to use, the engineer has other 'toys' that nobody else gets, LA has a jetpack to move with, and infiltrators are already specialized for more short or long range combat depending on the setup. The engineer in particular is a problem since giving him the assault rifle would make that the class to be for people that want the best of support guns and (possibly) equipment. The medic needs something to make it stand out offensively; this isn't one of those games where the medic's only job is healing the heavy classes.

[Accuser]

Right. I'm fine with that. I wasn't sure if they were going to try and pack a ton of different weapons in the game or just make variants. I just don't see how giving a medic the same weapon as a HA would make a whole lot of sense when the medic is a distinctly designed class.

The bread and butter of the HA should probably be their class-specific weapon, the MCG/Lasher/Jackhammer. Of course, HA (having no support ability and no jumpjet) should be capable of using assault rifles and maybe most of the weapons in the game. But the assault rifle is far from being the HA's signature weapon.

HA's are built for big slow weapons like LMGs. LA's need the mobility of SMG/shotty/carbine. Infil seems to be specialized to either sniper or pistol/C4/melee. Medics (and to a lesser extend, Engis) need to be able to be in the rear doing their jobs, but also be capable of hitting targets that get to medium range. It's just not a good idea to punish supporting team players in the rear by strictly limiting them to short range.

As for LA's being gimped in the open with their SMG/carbine/shotty loadout... I would hope that jumpjets could be customized to decrease height and increase horizontal movement speed :)

[Karrade]

Medics + HA. - Give them both a nice boost. Engy has enough going for it, from what i've seen.

LA needs some range, as at the moment it looks like a weak one trick pony, but not an assault rifle, maybe some certing to make the sub machine gun have some scoped range at the expense of fire rate or damage. Unless they are getting some real mean punch up close.

[Sledgecrushr]

I dint mind the medic getting an AR, they will always be face to face with enemy troops. The HA should be able to choose any infantry weapon as that would allow the HA great flexibility in how to approach all combat situations. I dont think the engineer should get an AR since his jobs wont necessarily keep him on the front line and he has so many toys to play with already. And yes the LA should get an AR because frankly they really dont have a whole lot going for them and some added punch at medium range will keep there paper armor from being perforated too much.

[JesNC]

So just because Engineers can support their empire away from the frontlines they don't get to play with the other kids in a gunfight?

That doesn't sound like being fun or promoting squad teamplay, IMO.

There are two main arguments for not giving the Engineer class access to ARs:

1. They're a support class, they shouldn't participate in long range firefights.

But the same goes for Medics.

2. They have access to the MANA turret for all their AI needs.

In my personal opinion, a stationary turret is no substitute for a decent long range Rifle. In most situations, you're on the move and it is left behind. In all situations, manning the turret blocks you from engaging in support activities on a whim.
I can really only imagine myself placing the turret for a fellow assault class to use, while I do something more useful to my team.
Additionally, using the MANA turret argument to keep Engineers from ARs would make it nearly mandatory to use outdoors.

Now, we haven't seen beta and for all it's worth carbines might have sufficient range and accuracy to compete with ARs, but IMO it would be best to have the full range of guns aviable to all infantry classes ** - simply because of personal preference. If you're really good with a certain weapon and not much else you could severely gimp your effort if your team needs you to switch to a class that doesn't support said weapon.


edit: ** - within reason of course ^^ no LMGs for Infiltrators or Sniper Rifles for HA. The other classes seem to be on a relatively even playing field though.

[Kran De Loy]

So far the valid arguments that I have read are:

-HA should have the AR because they should have access to all non-specialized infantry weapons because they are a supposed to be the well rounded basic shock trooper class.
-HA should not have the AR in order to make each class more distinct.

-Medic should have the AR to give players another incentive to play as a support class.
-Medic should not have exclusive use the AR because it would cause confusion in teammates when a medic is near by but refuses to heal anyone because he is too busy being a 1 man army and healing only himself.
-Medic should not have the AR because they should be too busy healing/because they are a support class.

-Engineer should not have the AR because they already have loads of tools./Because they are a support class.
-Engineer should have it because the medic should not have exclusive use of the AR as above.
-Engineer should have the AR to give players another incentive to play as a support class.


Invalid arguments...

-LA should have the AR because they need the range and increase in power because they are so squishy.
-LA should not have the AR because they can easily position themselves into insanely annoying spots impossible for any other class and use it at long ranges.

Because these arguments involve the question of POWER of the AR. Since as far as I know, no one knows the power of the AR relative to all the other generalized infantry weapon archetypes all arguments involving power have no basic common understanding of what the AR is capable of.
Damage, Range, CoF/Maximum CoF Hip, CoF/Maximum CoF ADS, Scope-In Time, Recoil, Ammo Capacity, etc... have not been answered. (attributes taken from BL:R because of the level of detail they gave you, even if I hated the game for it's ridiculously low TTK.)

Edit: the second reason why an LA should/shouldn't have the AR is sort of a mix. I mention it mostly because that's just my personal bias, LA really shouldn't have AR.

[Erendil]

Removed txt since the thread grew a bunch since I wrote this.

[Karrade]

So just because Engineers can support their empire away from the frontlines they don't get to play with the other kids in a gunfight?

That doesn't sound like being fun or promoting squad teamplay, IMO.

There are two main arguments for not giving the Engineer class access to ARs:

1. They're a support class, they shouldn't participate in long range firefights.

But the same goes for Medics.

2. They have access to the MANA turret for all their AI needs.

In my personal opinion, a stationary turret is no substitute for a decent long range Rifle. In most situations, you're on the move and it is left behind. In all situations, manning the turret blocks you from engaging in support activities on a whim.
I can really only imagine myself placing the turret for a fellow assault class to use, while I do something more useful to my team.
Additionally, using the MANA turret argument to keep Engineers from ARs would make it nearly mandatory to use outdoors.

Now, we haven't seen beta and for all it's worth carbines might have sufficient range and accuracy to compete with ARs, but IMO it would be best to have the full range of guns aviable to all infantry classes ** - simply because of personal preference. If you're really good with a certain weapon and not much else you could severely gimp your effort if your team needs you to switch to a class that doesn't support said weapon.


edit: ** - within reason of course ^^ no LMGs for Infiltrators or Sniper Rifles for HA. The other classes seem to be on a relatively even playing field though.


Engineers have ammo, turrets, repair, mines, (considering revive), and now you want them to get a BR as well? They are already the op'd class imho, especially if they have revive, why do they need to be more op'd?

[JesNC]

Engineers have ammo, turrets, repair, mines, (considering revive), and now you want them to get a BR as well? They are already the op'd class imho, especially if they have revive, why do they need to be more op'd?

WTF Oo Where did you get that information from?

And I still don't get why people are so obsessed with that POS turret. When was the last time you deemed it a great idea to put yourself behind a stationary, limited-LoS emplacement with next to no cover (in any FPS)? Does anyone not remember TR MAXes bitching about their lockdown ability til kingdom come?

And yeah, if we want to go on with this 'OMG class X is OP' lets take the HA, shall we?

- Heavy Rifles
- Assault Weapons
- AV andAA Launchers
- PShield
- Med Packs
- and grenades
And still, they get to drive/pilot all vehicles. So why should I lose out on a decent ranged gun?

Or the infil: cloak, sniper rifles, adv. hacking and explosives. Not OP for you, I guess?

(disclaimer: I know they both can't carry everything at once, so does the Engineer, d'uh)

/end ragefit

So, I tried to make an argument about playability and about choice. And all you can think of are some baseless facts and a nerf call?

[Karrade]

WTF Oo Where did you get that information from?

And I still don't get why people are so obsessed with that POS turret. When was the last time you deemed it a great idea to put yourself behind a stationary, limited-LoS emplacement with next to no cover (in any FPS)? Does anyone not remember TR MAXes bitching about their lockdown ability til kingdom come?

And yeah, if we want to go on with this 'OMG class X is OP' lets take the HA, shall we?

- Heavy Rifles
- Assault Weapons
- AV andAA Launchers
- PShield
- Med Packs
- and grenades
And still, they get to drive/pilot all vehicles. So why should I lose out on a decent ranged gun?

Or the infil: cloak, sniper rifles, adv. hacking and explosives. Not OP for you, I guess?

(disclaimer: I know they both can't carry everything at once, so does the Engineer, d'uh)

/end ragefit

So, I tried to make an argument about playability and about choice. And all you can think of are some baseless facts and a nerf call?

Baseless facts - Funny thing is we are both speaking about something we haven't played yet, so its all perception of an illusion, best guess. Nothing more or less, want facts - go get a time machine. I am also making an argument about choice, if you can't see that look harder - choice of classes.

Devs state they were considering revive for engineers, all other items have been mentioned for a while now, including ammo replenishing which was a fairly big decision imho.

HA had seemed the best solo class weakest teamplay class (excluding LA), till BR was announced, as something else can do all their individual roles better, while they cover the most versatility - for awhile I was arguing for a niche, then I realised this is their role. They are the jack of all trades. With BR if its pretty much for them alone, and maybe a medic, they've really come into their own.

Vehicles Role - Engineer will be far superior as it can repair them as an example, it was all the way through PS1 - repair on vehicles was a big advantage.

HA are not stated as the only class that get grenades or any other item you've listed.

Infil is good no doubt about it, no not op'd though from what i've seen, even given the open battlespaces and snipers paradise. As another example, a sniper that can cloak and get into position will snipe better than a HA, this is just common sense.

[Kran De Loy]

When did this thread become the thread about Battle Rifles? (assume a BR is a semiautomatic long range high powered rifle one significant step down from the sniper rifle)

I thought this thread was about Assault Rifles and Medics may or may not getting exclusive access to them.

[Karrade]

That was me confusing the two, I did think we were speaking of the same thing, my apologies! :)

Ignoring the BR:

AR for LA, Medic, Engy, HA seems sense

[Erendil]

Support gets the standard rifle. Heavys get the LMG variants. LA gets the carbine variant, which doesn't actually mean its worse.. a carbine is just a short, lightweight variant of a battle rifle. The M1 and M1 carbine were not significantly different in capability.

The main thing the three major variants do is allow them to balance the weapons individually between the classes while still maintaining the fiction of a standardized set of armaments for the troops.

That's not quite true. The M1 carbine had significantly less stopping power than the Garand did due to the shorter round (7.62x33mm instead of the Garand's 7.62x63mm). In fact during the Korean War there were reports of carbine rounds at times not even being able to penetrate the winter clothing issued to Chinese soldiers. :eek:

That said the M4A1 is fairly close in power to the M16A2 though. Accuracy is somewhat lacking, but that's a trait inherent to just about all carbines due to the shorter barrel.

But yeah, using the different variants is an interesting way of differentiating between the classes, although I'm concerned about how it might affect cert costs if you use different variants for different classes, e.g. - will a scope purchased for an Engie's carbine also work on a Medics AR or do you have to buy the same scope twice for what are essentially two forced variants of the same weapon?

I dint mind the medic getting an AR, they will always be face to face with enemy troops. The HA should be able to choose any infantry weapon as that would allow the HA great flexibility in how to approach all combat situations. I dont think the engineer should get an AR since his jobs wont necessarily keep him on the front line and he has so many toys to play with already. And yes the LA should get an AR because frankly they really dont have a whole lot going for them and some added punch at medium range will keep there paper armor from being perforated too much.

Agree 99%. Assault rifles have been the mainstay weapon-of-choice of modern armed forces for infantry combat for the last 60+ years. They're a great all-around weapon, bridging the gaps in RoF, power and accuracy between carbines/SMG's and full-sized rifles. Outside of the extreme ends of weapon designs (sniper rifles, HA weapons, LMGs/ AV) I'm not really a fan of limiting weapons to just one class, and as far as capabilities go assault rifles are just about right in the middle. As such, any class whose job puts them into the fray during small arms firefights should have the option to use one, which in PS2 would be LA, HA, and Medics.

MY only "1"%" of doubt is the Engie. I'd be okay with them getting AR's too, tho their skillset doesn't necessarily require them to be in the thick of things.

[Deadeye]

Engineers have ammo, turrets, repair, mines, (considering revive), and now you want them to get a BR as well? They are already the op'd class imho, especially if they have revive, why do they need to be more op'd?

They are most definitely not going to get all of that at the same time. That would just be stupid. Engineers are probably going to have to pick one, maybe 2 of those to run with during a single life or resupply.

As far as guns go I'd like to use a simple scale to express power. On a scale of 1 to 5 with 1 being least powerful and 5 being most then the scale should be this:

5. Max. Big weapons. lots of power.
4. HA. Lmg+rocket launcher.
3. Assault rifle/carbine wielders. Engis, medics and LA. Just because you're a support class, doesn't mean you should be totally impotent.
2. Pistols/SMG. On a per bullet basis SMGs do less damage and lower range but pours out the ammo at short range.
1. Knife

For shotgun it should be high power but very short range.

That should be the weapon balance not this tired B.S. of if you can do more than shoot a gun you can't have a decent gun. In the real world, that thinking stopped back in ww2 (back when medics just got a pistol), let's move on, ourselves.

Oh and don't say because you can shoot and heal yourself or ammo supply yourself everyone will do that. Some will but both they and that idea are both stupid.

As far as engineers not on the front line, that argument went out the window when soe gave engineers ammo packs. Now they are just as front line as medics.

[Vydofnir]

Agree 99%. Assault rifles have been the mainstay weapon-of-choice of modern armed forces for infantry combat for the last 60+ years. They're a great all-around weapon, bridging the gaps in RoF, power and accuracy between carbines/SMG's and full-sized rifles. Outside of the extreme ends of weapon designs (sniper rifles, HA weapons, LMGs/ AV) I'm not really a fan of limiting weapons to just one class, and as far as capabilities go assault rifles are just about right in the middle. As such, any class whose job puts them into the fray during small arms firefights should have the option to use one, which in PS2 would be LA, HA, and Medics.

This pretty well sums up my concerns about the AR being a medic exclusive. It makes perfect sense to me that they limit specialized weapons like the sniper rifle, rocket launcher, LMG, and heavy assault weapons to specialist classes, but the AR is arguably the most generalized weapon type. It seems very odd that the number of classes that can equip a Cycler is equal to the number of classes that can equip an MCG, or that there are more classes with access to the Sweeper than the Gauss Rifle. Seeing as there is no specific medium assault class, I think it would be appropriate to allow most (if not all) classes to fill that role to some degree, depending on what tradeoffs they make in terms of gear load-out.

Indeed. Higby specifically said that LA has access to "carbines, SMGs and shotguns", but some on this forum (not me, mind you) are desperate for LA to have a longer range weapon. Perhaps that could be balanced with a weaker jumpjet, or one with a much longer recharge time than the standard LA has.

I agree with this completely. If they have managed to balance giving a sniper rifle to a class that can cloak and a LMG/HA weapon/missile launcher to a heavily armored class with a personal shield boost, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that they can find a way to balance giving a middle-of-the-road weapon like an AR to a class with jump jets.