The real reason there needs to be decent delays in entering/exiting vehicles

[GTGD]

Was just watching Hamma's new video and thought of it. Near the end he rides around in an ATV, and right when he is about to go over a ledge that the thinks is a cliff, he enters third person mode. With the ability for vehicles to go inside buildings and how cheap an ATV is, it'll be easy for players to abuse it by wallhumping. Except this time they can also jump into something with extra armor.

[MrBloodworth]

The real reasons are:

Cheesy game play hoping in and out of things. Second lives and such.
Players entering vehicles that are in the air, or moving, from any angle.
Hot swapping seats, when you should have another player in that seat.
It looks unfinished
Lack of the epic feeling seeing a Gal or sunder load up, or deploy passengers.

[SUBARU]

The real reasons are:

Cheesy game play hoping in and out of things. Second lives and such.
Players entering vehicles that are in the air, or moving from any angle.
Hot swapping seats, when you should have another player in that seat.
It looks unfinished
Lack of the epic feeling seeing a Gal or sunder load up, or deploy passengers.


AGREED

[IgloGlass]

The real reasons are:

Cheesy game play hoping in and out of things. Second lives and such.
Players entering vehicles that are in the air, or moving, from any angle.
Hot swapping seats, when you should have another player in that seat.
It looks unfinished
Lack of the epic feeling seeing a Gal or sunder load up, or deploy passengers.


This.

[SgtExo]

For entering planes that are in the air, it could be done by not allowing ppl to enter vehicles while they are moving. This would solve the problem of bailing in an aircraft and getting back in.

[MrBloodworth]

Or!

They could add the animations back in, but update them to 2012 standards. Like being able to be hit, and being slightly shorter.

[EisenKreutzer]

Honestly, I have no problem with this. Maybe because I didn't play Planetside. Most games with vehicles I have played have had instant entry/exit, and I never saw a problem with it in those either. *shrug*

[Shogun]

The real reasons are:

Cheesy game play hoping in and out of things. Second lives and such.
Players entering vehicles that are in the air, or moving, from any angle.
Hot swapping seats, when you should have another player in that seat.
It looks unfinished
Lack of the epic feeling seeing a Gal or sunder load up, or deploy passengers.


kind of humping a dead horse again, but THIS!

[Flaropri]

Vehicles aren't that practical indoors, even with the ability to have 3rd person views, and of all the ground vehicles, the Flash (and Sunderer) deserve to have instant bailing the most.

Combine that with uncertain position and facing adjustments on exit, and the limitations of Flash armaments, I don't think it'll be an actual problem.

I've got no problem with a (very short) startup time for someone getting into the driver's seat of a stopped vehicle though, or even as a general rule requiring someone to draw their weapon (as if switching to it) when exiting a vehicle, but whether those are necessary I'll have to wait to get into the game myself to come to a personal conclusion.

All told, I don't think that wallhumping in vehicles is a solid enough tactic (so far) to be a reason to require delays on entry/exit.

[MrBloodworth]

Honestly, I have no problem with this. Maybe because I didn't play Planetside. Most games with vehicles I have played have had instant entry/exit, and I never saw a problem with it in those either. *shrug*

Many, MANY Modern FPS games have them, for the reasons I state, as well as immersion. Also, in a team based game, you should need all positions filled to gain full fire capabilities, not one guy with 1-0 keys.

Two titles in the vast FPS genre do not a genre make. But I respect your opinion.

[Sturmhardt]

The real reasons are:

Lack of the epic feeling seeing a Gal or sunder load up, or deploy passengers.


I would really miss that. It has just always been something very special about Planetside and was one of the key features that made you feel like you were in a war when everyone deployed to the next capturepoint. It would be a shame if it didnt return, it really added to the immersive feeling.

btw: Is there any official statement from the devs regarding this? Did they say they dont want it or is it just not in yet?

[Stardouser]

Delays are also anti-immersive. Delays may be realistic but they are anti-immersive to the flow of combat. Realism isn't the only immersion, and expediency matters in gaming.

Also, why not just remove third person?

[Winfernal]

I'd like it. But it's already been explained several times, by devs on IRC, (and on the forums i suppose) why it's not going to happen at launch.

I agree with MrBloodworth's post though. But i'm being a little realistic.

[Redshift]

I'd like to see instant bailing from the atv's again, I think they kind of need it

[noxious]

I'd rather they stick with instant entry and exit. Modern shooters have demonstrated that it's not problematic and I suspect a majority of people would agree that it is more fun.

[MrBloodworth]

I'd rather they stick with instant entry and exit. Modern shooters have demonstrated that it's not problematic and I suspect a majority of people would agree that it is more fun.

Is the halo series not a modern shooter?

The "Modern shooter" excuse does not hold water. Again, two titles in the vast FPS market do not a genre make.

It's OK, if its not something you care about, but do not give the "Modern shooter" Excuse.

[NoDachi]

The real reasons are:

Cheesy game play hoping in and out of things. Second lives and such.
Players entering vehicles that are in the air, or moving, from any angle.
Hot swapping seats, when you should have another player in that seat.
It looks unfinished
Lack of the epic feeling seeing a Gal or sunder load up, or deploy passengers.


incase anyone missed

[Stardouser]

Is the halo series not a modern shooter?

The "Modern shooter" excuse does not hold water. Again, two titles in the vast FPS market do not a genre make.

It's OK, if its not something you care about, but do not give the "Modern shooter" Excuse.

Two? Why don't you be a bit more specific? Are you saying there are only two games with vehicles that allow instant vehicle entry?

[MrBloodworth]

No im not. We don't need to get specific, because its not important to the point.

But I wrote you a story:

I really enjoy the new design of the Sunderer. I would say the only draw back is that people will be "pop" in and out of it. Instead of rolling out the doors like the original.

I feel we have lost something important here.

There is something Very epic, very grounding seeing a squad dismount from a Sunderer once it has breached a fortification.

One of my favorite vehicles from the original was the Marauder truck. There was something of an "ownership" implied, or transferred when you got out, and slammed that truck door. For me, that vehicle was not simply a way to get from point A to B, but that was "My Truck". Its almost like kicking the tires, or giving a car a bump on the side as you show/talk how proud you are of it.

My small group of friends would log in, pull a marauder, load up it trunk with CE and Advance Engi equipment ( We used presets, of course ). And would ride to glory, taking out BFR's (Marauder fit between the legs of two of the BFR's Designs ) or simply scattering the front lines of the opposition.

When we took to much damage, I would find a out of the way place, and my main gunner would hop out of the grenade launcher, and place a cloak bubble. We would then start making repairs. Part of the best thing about this, was the connection to the Marauder truck, we would "load up" hopping into the back, or getting in the driver side and slam that door.

When you see that door slam, and hear that sound, you knew. We were locked and loaded.

Delays are also anti-immersive. Delays may be realistic but they are anti-immersive to the flow of combat. Realism isn't the only immersion, and expediency matters in gaming.


They should make reload also instant then. Right?

A few seconds of an enter/exit animation won't slow the game down to a snails pace.

[Shepherdx]

the real reasons are:

cheesy game play hoping in and out of things. Second lives and such.
players entering vehicles that are in the air, or moving, from any angle.
hot swapping seats, when you should have another player in that seat.
it looks unfinished
lack of the epic feeling seeing a gal or sunder load up, or deploy passengers.



QFT.

[Stardouser]

Just out of curiosity, and I can't really say anything else until I know this...are you asking for animations that leave you vulnerable while in process, or not vulnerable?

[MrBloodworth]

Just out of curiosity, and I can't really say anything else until I know this...are you asking for animations that leave you vulnerable while in process, or not vulnerable?

It's 2010. It does not have to be immunity during playback.

[Rivenshield]

/copypasted from the last time the topic came up

Once again, with feeling:

We do not need entry/exit animations -- we merely *want* them. All we need is a slight delay with timer bar whenever entering, exiting, or changing positions in a vehicle. Coupled with the same de-rez animation you get in a spawn tube, this will prevent exploits (switching from main gun instantly to MG to gun down the AV infantry that just popped up next to you, instabailing to cheat your opponent of his kill, etc). It will also give us the sense of immersion we seek.

[Rat]

It would be awesome to see someone bail from a quad at full speed and go all ragdoll bouncing down the terrain.

[Klockan]

The problem with animations like that is that you lose control over your character for a duration which feels bad. Like if I press the button to exit a tank and then notices that someone waits outside to shoot me I can't stop the operation and go back in, or just shoot from the lid, no I need to do the whole animation before doing anything so it would just be a stupid death. Taking away control from players is a bad mechanic and should be avoided as much as possible. A very important lesson for AAA games is that you don't put things in just because it is fun to put them in, you need to have a reason and it needs to play well. Unless you can do it well don't do it. Halo did it well by making all vehicles have instant access so the animations were almost nonexistent. The PS2 vehicles are not designed like Halo vehicles though so they would need an extensive overhaul for a really minor improvement of the game.


Cheesy game play hoping in and out of things. Second lives and such.
If the tank dies within half a second or so of you jumping out you die as well from the explosion so you need to bail way before you are about to die. Hoping in and out to shoot can be seen as simulating the player opening a door and shooting from it etc, there really isn't anything wrong with it from a gameplay perspective, it is just the visuals.
*Players entering vehicles that are in the air, or moving, from any angle.
This can easily be fixed without animations.
*Hot swapping seats, when you should have another player in that seat.
This can be fixed without animations.
*It looks unfinished
Animations feels unfinished which is worse. People can get around how things looks but feel is often a dealbreaker. If they made fully interactive animations where you still had total control of yourself they would work. Or you could make them like HALO where it takes ~0.5 seconds to enter vehicles but most PS2 vehicles aren't made with easily accessible driver seats so it would be hard to implement as fast animations while HALO vehicles are all made to be entered with a single motion.

[MrBloodworth]

/copypasted from the last time the topic came up

Once again, with feeling:

We do not need entry/exit animations -- we merely *want* them. All we need is a slight delay with timer bar whenever entering, exiting, or changing positions in a vehicle. Coupled with the same de-rez animation you get in a spawn tube, this will prevent exploits (switching from main gun instantly to MG to gun down the AV infantry that just popped up next to you, instabailing to cheat your opponent of his kill, etc). It will also give us the sense of immersion we seek.

I personally like more polish rather than half doing something. A timer may address the issue, but does not put the epicness back in.

I do not get Starship troopers load up scene epciness from star trek transporter beams. But that's just me.

[Rivenshield]

I personally like more polish rather than half doing something. A timer may address the issue, but does not put the epicness back in.

I do not get Starship troopers load up scene epciness from star trek transporter beams. But that's just me.

I'm right there with you. But it's a matter of what we can get in terms of gameplay machanics, right now. It's a matter of preventing instabailers from fagging up the game. It's a matter of preventing a Vannie driver from seeing me in third person behind a rock with my AV, leaping out with rifle in hand, and coldcocking me while I'm still trying to aim my futuristic bazooka. It's a matter of preventing pilots from leaping out in LA armor and jetpacking to safety while his wingman hassles me. Not only do I get cheated of my kill, not only do I get insta-ambushed while I'm holding the wrong weapon, I wind up having to kill everything *twice.* That's bullshit.

We *must* have this in at launch, or I guarantee you it will foul up gameplay bigtime. And to get it in at launch, we need to make it easy for the devs to implement.

[Stardouser]

I'm right there with you. But it's a matter of what we can get in terms of gameplay machanics, right now. It's a matter of preventing instabailers from fagging up the game. It's a matter of preventing a Vannie driver from seeing me in third person behind a rock with my AV, leaping out with rifle in hand, and coldcocking me while I'm still trying to aim my futuristic bazooka. It's a matter of preventing pilots from leaping out in LA armor and jetpacking to safety while his wingman hassles me. Not only do I get cheated of my kill, not only do I get insta-ambushed while I'm holding the wrong weapon, I wind up having to kill everything *twice.* That's bullshit.

We *must* have this in at launch, or I guarantee you it will foul up gameplay bigtime. And to get it in at launch, we need to make it easy for the devs to implement.

Instead of complaining about third person view, you target this?

Also, bailing is not cheating you of a kill. Bailing is part of games and games are not duel simulators.

As for a guy jumping out at you: Where is your squad? Why didn't you engage from cover or from a sufficient distance that that tactic wouldn't work against you? Also, the angle at which a driver is facing once he gets out will probably be standardized, if you must engage that close why not engage from the other side?

[ThGlump]

As long there are module for hot dropping from aircraft, bailing without it, using jetpack to avoid death, i take as cheating.

[Stardouser]

As long there are module for hot dropping from aircraft, bailing without it, using jetpack to avoid death, i take as cheating.

Maybe they will decide to change it and maybe they won't but either way, using the gameplay that exists within the physics of the game is not cheating. Trying to emotionally charge an issue by calling it cheating doesn't make your position more right.

[Badjuju]

I don't see a problem with it. Sure can help increase immersion but it ends up being one more thing that uses up development and in game resources for little to no benefit. With the faster pace game play and what will likely be a incredibly hectic battle field, I actually think instant entry will benefit the game style more. More importantly, not sure if it would or not, but if cutting out hundreds of people and their vehicle loading animations will help the game run smoother, then I would prefer they left it out as I don't see too much benefit to it.

[Flaropri]

From my perspective, there seem to be two philosophies regarding bailing:

1. A pilot should be considered one with their vehicle, when it dies, so should they.
2. A person's vehicle is a separate threat from them that cost resources/time/cooldowns, you need to destroy them both.

I subscribe to the second, but I can respect the other point of view as a valid way of doing things, albeit not the way that PS2 seems to be going with so far.


Back to the primary topic...
I think that 3rd-person view will be less of an issue on vehicles only than it is in PS1. Vehicles have a harder time moving around and wall hugging. Vehicles are much less able to fight while in 3rd-person view due to relative lack of accuracy, and 3rd person serves 2 primary purposes:

1. To check out how you pimped out your vehicle.
2. To watch for nearby threats and take evasive action.

The second purpose COULD be unbalanced, but I think the game is being designed with it in mind, so it might just be more fun, and you do sacrifice weapon accuracy for battle-awareness. I would need to try it out personally over a fairly long time to come to a conclusion myself.

Vehicles indoors will be largely impracticable even if they technically fit. They are louder than infantry, less accurate, and from all I can see you don't have access to for example grenades even while on a quad, so you aren't going to get any real use out of the vehicle itself. Other than that, they'll still get in the way far more than other players, and most buildings won't allow even ATVs in most areas from what I can see so far (at least not that aren't already so open that 3rd-person view is trivial).

[MrBloodworth]

I do not have a problem with Aircraft bailing, using the mechanics built into the game. AKA an ejection seat type system.

I have a problem with hopping in and out of all vehicles instantly.

[Rivenshield]

I do not have a problem with Aircraft bailing, using the mechanics built into the game. AKA an ejection seat type system.

I have a problem with hopping in and out of all vehicles instantly.

Same here.

We have a proven game mechanic with nine years of success to back it up. There is no reason to discard it now, and several good reasons why we shouldn't.

[bullet]

Delays are also anti-immersive. Delays may be realistic but they are anti-immersive to the flow of combat. Realism isn't the only immersion, and expediency matters in gaming.

Also, why not just remove third person?

Couldn't the same argument be said for reloading? Or respawning? Or some other time consuming mechanic? Why not make them instant?

The instant enter/exit/swap of vehicle seats seems like a shoddy mechanic. I'm not expecting you to have to pull out your car keys, put your seat belt on, turn the engine on, there just needs to be some delay. I feel it is unbalanced to have the ability to instantly bail or enter a vehicle to save your life without any delay or consequence other than losing some resources, or in the case of teleporting into a vehicle, nothing.

[Flaropri]

I do not have a problem with Aircraft bailing, using the mechanics built into the game. AKA an ejection seat type system.

I have a problem with hopping in and out of all vehicles instantly.

Very well, there is:

1a: If the pilot abandons a vehicle that vehicle should die (preferably explosively). (addendum to the first)

I know you also consider getting back into aircraft (while in air) to be "stupid" and whatnot, and you don't like hotswitching seats, so clearly, if a pilot bails it would generally result in the vehicles destruction.

This isn't (as often) the case for ground vehicles, which are often fully capable of not crashing without a driver even while in movement (barring nearby rocks/cliffs which might not result in instant destruction anyway... unless there's a cactus; cactii destroy everything).


Anyway, I just need to wait until beta to determine if it is actually a problem for balance/fun mechanics. So far, I haven't seen anything to indicate that it really is, and I know part of that is just personal opinion, as we've discussed here and in other threads.

[Stardouser]

Couldn't the same argument be said for reloading? Or respawning? Or some other time consuming mechanic? Why not make them instant?

The instant enter/exit/swap of vehicle seats seems like a shoddy mechanic. I'm not expecting you to have to pull out your car keys, put your seat belt on, turn the engine on, there just needs to be some delay. I feel it is unbalanced to have the ability to instantly bail or enter a vehicle to save your life without any delay or consequence other than losing some resources, or in the case of teleporting into a vehicle, nothing.

Respawning doesn't really factor in here, without it the game would die if people have to create new characters.

Reloading? Sure, it could be said, but instant reloading is a lot more of an issue. Constantly firing bullets would be a lot worse. Reloading is necessary protect that gameplay, animations aren't.

As for balance, it's not unbalanced to bail to save your life. You can do it too if you had a vehicle, and if you don't, that's your decision.

As for no consequences, I'd rather focus on the overall war than make consequences for every microscopic action. But there are consequences. Getting out of a vehicle opens you up to fire and getting in...well, the situation in which are you most likely to get in a vehicle is if you were only temporarily out of it(ie repairing). This is not Battlefield where vehicles are just laying around.

[TeaLeaf]

Players entering vehicles that are in the air


Am I the only one that thinks this would awesome?

[noxious]

Is the halo series not a modern shooter?

The "Modern shooter" excuse does not hold water. Again, two titles in the vast FPS market do not a genre make.

It's OK, if its not something you care about, but do not give the "Modern shooter" Excuse.
You seem to be confused. That modern shooters have demonstrated that instant entry/exit from vehicles is not problematic does not imply that all modern games feature instant entry/exit, or that delayed entry/exit is antiquated. Finally by, "two titles in the vast FPS genre do not a genre make," are you implying that there are only two shooters that feature instant entry/exit. I hope that is not what you're doing-- surely you realize that that is an easily falsifiable claim, and that by repeating it you weaken the credibility of your position.

[Azren]

The real reasons are:

Cheesy game play hoping in and out of things. Second lives and such.
Players entering vehicles that are in the air, or moving, from any angle.
Hot swapping seats, when you should have another player in that seat.
It looks unfinished
Lack of the epic feeling seeing a Gal or sunder load up, or deploy passengers.


Agreed

[MrBloodworth]

You seem to be confused. That modern shooters have demonstrated that instant entry/exit from vehicles is not problematic does not imply that all modern games feature instant entry/exit, or that delayed entry/exit is antiquated. Finally by, "two titles in the vast FPS genre do not a genre make," are you implying that there are only two shooters that feature instant entry/exit. I hope that is not what you're doing-- surely you realize that that is an easily falsifiable claim, and that by repeating it you weaken the credibility of your position.

I refer to the two titles that directly influenced PS2 design.

[noxious]

What two titles are you speaking of, and what relevance does that have to the topic at hand?

[RoninOni]

For whatever it's worth, most modern military vehicle designs allow for internal movement in the vehicle to change seats/positions. Necessary in case someone is wounded.

This is the future, they've likely kept and improved on these designs.

It would take a couple seconds to get re-situated or w/e and so a seat swap delay is absolutely reasonable. Actual seat swapping should be instant, but it should take a couple seconds for the 'controls' of that seat to come fully operational.

I absolutely wouldn't mind entrance/exit animations, but exiting should be really really fast. like 1 second or less fast. Seriously you have no idea how fast a trained squad of soldiers can bail out of a vehicle. I've jumped from moving APC's before (in training obviously) right out the top troop hatch.

Because of this, if they were to add it... I'd want them to do it right. Planetside 1's solution of lil circles of where you're allowed to enter don't cut it. Slow invulnerable animations... don't cut it. It would be really sweet to have this lil immersion factor, but considering the level of quality it would need to meet before it adds to the experience rather than just detracting as an annoying mechanic intended to add immersion but failing to meet the level of quality of the rest of the game.

That's a lot of work for, all things considered, a relatively small impact mechanic.

So... my vote:
*Enter/Exit animations added. FAST mount and FASTER dismount speed, vulnerable during animation, dynamic smart entry (enter from anywhere, if not close to entry point, add .5 seconds to add you character moving to closest entry point, scrambling over the vehicle to get there if appropriate)
* Seat-Swapping IN, but add (short) delay before seat controls are fully activated (turret turning would come online before turret shooting...)

I already explained why a 2 man Liberator is half the vehicle a 3 man Lib is... so it's not like undermanned crews are OP all of a sudden. Slightly more versatile but it can't defend itself and bomb at the same time... which is a HUGE issue when you'll likely be under constant aerial attack.

[Soothsayer]

This.

This.

[GhettoPrince]

I always liked the little "mount up" and highjack animations in Halo, especially on the warthog and the ghost. Sure it doesn't HAVE to be there, it's totally aesthetic, but it is very nice to see.

Plus , without it, it's only a matter of time until we see a video with a HA jumping out of his sythe, firing an RPG at the mosquito following him, then jumping back into the sythe.

It will get 20 million views.:cry:

[ArcIyte]

I'd rather they stick with instant entry and exit. Modern shooters have demonstrated that it's not problematic and I suspect a majority of people would agree that it is more fun.

I can understand this statement considering how bad you are at video games in general.

The standard procedure for engaging an enemy tank in BF3 is pretty stupid: Tank driver engages, two engineers instantly hop out and fire RPGs into it, and then begin repairing their tank until the enemy is dead.

We saw this in Higby's stream. He lost a fight against a Magrider and jumped out at the last second to fire an AT missile at it.

The numerous polls here have shown that the vast majority of people want some kind of delay.

[SolLeks]

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=790641&postcount=241

My thoughts from the other thread on this same topic. I did think the enter / exit animations were cool, but then they got old.

[GuyFawkes]

Honestly, I have no problem with this. Maybe because I didn't play Planetside. Most games with vehicles I have played have had instant entry/exit, and I never saw a problem with it in those either. *shrug*

same, though I did play ps1.

I wouldn't put this in a top 100 things to look at before anything else, its just like comparing striped toothpaste to non striped as to which you prefer

[noxious]

I can understand this statement considering how bad you are at video games in general.

The standard procedure for engaging an enemy tank in BF3 is pretty stupid: Tank driver engages, two engineers instantly hop out and fire RPGs into it, and then begin repairing their tank until the enemy is dead.

We saw this in Higby's stream. He lost a fight against a Magrider and jumped out at the last second to fire an AT missile at it.

The numerous polls here have shown that the vast majority of people want some kind of delay.
Starting your post with doubly fallacious assertion (ad hominem, absence of evidence) is unwise. You go on to make a hasty generalization by submitting as authoritative evidence the numerous polls on the subject that have been connected here at PSU while ignoring the statistical bias in those results (most obviously, self-selection and and population bias [ie, it only represents the subset of gamers that post on PSU]).

[GuyFawkes]

The numerous polls here have shown that the vast majority of people want some kind of delay.

The same analogy assumption I remember in forumside on the original official ps1 forums. A vocal minority on a forum isnt always the vast majority of people, just the most vocal.

[Shadowrath]

The real reasons are:

Cheesy game play hoping in and out of things. Second lives and such.
Players entering vehicles that are in the air, or moving, from any angle.
Hot swapping seats, when you should have another player in that seat.
It looks unfinished
Lack of the epic feeling seeing a Gal or sunder load up, or deploy passengers.


Amazingly put.

[Death2All]

I don't understand this...


People were SO against hot dropping and bailing out of vehicles in PS1. But now that we can instantly enter and exit vehicles and swap seats instantly everyone is perfectly fine with it? What the fuck happened?

[sylphaen]

I don't understand this...


People were SO against hot dropping and bailing out of vehicles in PS1. But now that we can instantly enter and exit vehicles and swap seats instantly everyone is perfectly fine with it? What the fuck happened?

Demographics ? :)

[Sephirex]

Demographics ? :)

Damn kids!