Why this game needs old bitter vets

[Irish]

From the footage i have seen recently including one that had the VOIP of the players playing, more importantly how they were handling situations and reacting/nerd raging to certain in game events. i noticed that this game is going to be consumed with the accepted norm of current fps mentality. harassment, trolling, profanity, racism....add a F2P model with unlimited account creation possibility = a total recipe for disaster. i have read through the posts regarding the concerns about F2P already which are all mainly valid.


This game is going to heavily rely on old bitter vets, to renew old tactics and make them the accepted norm.

i watched a liberator pilot land his lib to repair, and get flamed by the gunner for taking to long, endless flame w/ harrasment.
this is the instant gratification "modern" fps gamers are used to.


i hope that with the overwhelming experience from vets, and large skilled outfits, our initial tactics and strategy set firm the foundation that made planetside 1 so great.

the opportunity to set the standard right off the bat is available to all of us. lets make it a mature experience, very much opposite of how LOL is currently. (just my example of the worst gaming community i have ever seen)

[Aerothorn]

I agree that the onus will be on vets to be community leaders. That said, it will be important to minimize the bitterness during active play. Chewing out new players not used to Planetside's tactical complexity and somewhat slower pace isn't going to make things better, it will just piss them off.

[diLLa]

Get to know some people so you dont have to play with randoms all the time. Should decrease the amount of harassment you get.

[Sephirex]

Yes, a lot of these arena shooter players we're going to get aren't going to be used to a community. It will be interesting to see how that changes things.

[lolroflroflcake]

Minimizing bitterness is good, but if someone really does get mad at you for taking to long to fix the plane while they sit in the gunners seat its probably acceptable to turn the bitterness up to 11 at that moment. Actually just fly out of bounds or over water and dump them assuming that still works.

[SleepyZombie]

Regardless of what is on the veterans shoulders to kinda create the community for this game trolling flaming and general douche baggery is going to be prevalent.

I am a ps1 vet and I plan on leading and commanding my group of misfits and trolls and keeping them from stressing newer players out with there very littler tolerance.

However it is going to take an even larger effort on the newer guys to come into this game and understand that there are tactics the vets use that take complete understanding and cooperation to work. I think this will be very frustrating for the newer guys that get left out of the loop because they don't understand.

I think it will take a larger effort on the new guys to have the tolerance to let a community grow and not turn it into a veterans are bitter stuck up elitist jerks war and vise versa.

[bpostal]

The correct response would have been "Fine. We'll pull another one" and then blow up the lib while the jackass was still in it.

[Logon]

Minimizing bitterness is good, but if someone really does get mad at you for taking to long to fix the plane while they sit in the gunners seat its probably acceptable to turn the bitterness up to 11 at that moment. Actually just fly out of bounds or over water and dump them assuming that still works.

I really hope the lock mechanic makes a return

[SleepyZombie]

The correct response would have been "Fine. We'll pull another one" and then blow up the lib while the jackass was still in it.

Personally I would of found a mountain in the middle of nowhere and left him to fend for him self. Spend 10-15mins walking back.... or kill your self. Seems like justice to me

[Death2All]

I agree that the onus will be on vets to be community leaders. That said, it will be important to minimize the bitterness during active play. Chewing out new players not used to Planetside's tactical complexity and somewhat slower pace isn't going to make things better, it will just piss them off.

Unfortunately I think we're going to see a lot of this. Despite what some may think, most veterans from PS1 were happy rays of sunshine. A lot of them were some of the most controlling and condescending assholes I've ever had the displeasure of playing with.

I don't think PS2 will exactly similar to PS1, but I think it will be similar enough to the point where veterans from the first game will have an edge terms of what needs to be done strategically. I think there's going to be a lot of bitter hate from the veterans of the first game coming down on the CoD/BF players that won't know what's going on.

[james]

being bitter will just destroy the community. There is a reason why rts games stay small, its full of stuck up snobs who think they are best. You need to welcome in new players.

[SleepyZombie]

being bitter will just destroy the community. There is a reason why rts games stay small, its full of stuck up snobs who think they are best. You need to welcome in new players.

I love new players! Just not ones who try to change a game into the image of a previous game they feel planetside 2 should be more like

[Sephirex]

I love new players! Just not ones who try to change a game into the image of a previous game they feel planetside 2 should be more like

Good point. Actually, I think I've agreed with every post of yours I've ever read. Nice to have someone well spoken around here.

[SleepyZombie]

Good point. Actually, I think I've agreed with every post of yours I've ever read. Nice to have someone well spoken around here.

Hey same here buddy!

[ZaBa]

Hang on, let me go smoke a pack of cigarillos, I need to get in character. Can't play the grizzled vet without a voice like a cement mixer, right?

I don't think PS2 will exactly similar to PS1, but I think it will be similar enough to the point where veterans from the first game will have an edge terms of what needs to be done strategically. I think there's going to be a lot of bitter hate from the veterans of the first game coming down on the CoD/BF players that won't know what's going on.

I won't mind that so much as what I'm expecting; vets getting mad that the game itself is wrong because X tactic doesn't work the way it used to, or is completely irrelevant due to fundamental gameplay differences.

I'm sure plenty of strategic skills will carry over, but it feels like a lot of people are [incorrectly] assuming they'll instantly know what's up with in-the-weeds tactics just because the names of a lot of things are the same, which will generate significant grief among those for whom this isn't the case.

Maybe I'm misreading it, but I honestly hope I'm wrong either way. Could do without a beta full of people demanding the game be made more like PS1.

I love new players! Just not ones who try to change a game into the image of a previous game they feel planetside 2 should be more like

To sum up what I just said:

I love old players! Just not ones who try to change a game into the image of a previous game they feel planetside 2 should be more like (i.e.: planetside 1)

[Littleman]

I agree that the onus will be on vets to be community leaders. That said, it will be important to minimize the bitterness during active play. Chewing out new players not used to Planetside's tactical complexity and somewhat slower pace isn't going to make things better, it will just piss them off.

Bossing them around will piss them off. Telling them you played PS1 will just get them to outright ignore you. It's the internet, implicating in any way that you're their superior and not their equal will just add fuel to the fire.

For all intents and purposes, walking into PS2 without making obvious your PS1 experience when working with new bloods would be best in easing them in.

"This is what works..." vs "I learned this works..." Newbs are more likely to take helpful advice from... other newbs. Word everything like you're brand new too. I've found it helps a lot since it doesn't sound like you're bossing them around, but sharing learning experiences.

Don't get me wrong, some people do enjoy having the mentor type, but they're generally eager enough to learn that they can figure out the basics fairly quickly on their own, or likewise, they're nice, but too incapable of learning that it's a frustrating ordeal teaching them how to do the basics. Just... play being their equal, and show your experience as they warm up to you.

...We'll get classic MMORPG players trying out Planetside asking how to click on abilities... count on it.

Regarding tactics: I imagine a lot of the tactics and strageies we pulled in PS1 we'll have to either outright drop or heavily modify for PS2. There is no more single CC, no single generator, no lattice, no backdoor - things a lot of said tactics revolved around.

We have hexes. Hexes influence a variety of things, including hack times. We have resources. We have squad spawning (which hexes influence.) We have galaxies that act as spawn points (depending on hex influence) and can carry two squads of people. Let's not forget about all the freakin' customizability of just about everything you can get your grubby mitts on, including the camo and decals on your gun. Classes especially require a new approach to infantry encounters, as there may be a greater inclination towards prioritizing targets than PS1 ever had. Then there are other tangible variables, like continental benefits (non-existent as of now,) or just how beneficial facility bonuses may be.

One really big thing I hope not to see is everyone focusing solely on the bases: this is something I expect strictly from PS1 vets actually. Towers and bunkers/outposts (the Indar fly through in the last 6 minutes of Higby's 46 minute presentation revealed some fairly sizeable outposts that weren't bases) will be just as important to capturing a base as the base itself. Refer to hexes influencing capture times for the why. I expect Call of Duty and especially Battlefield players to see a capture point and gun for it, even fight ferociously over it, because it's what they were trained to do.

As a vet myself, I won't be naively walking into PS2 thinking "I got this." A LOT has changed from PS1. The base concept of massive cluster-**** battles is still there, along with mixed arms and the three empires and their dogma's. Beyond that, it's a whole new game.

Jumping into the fight expecting to win because of my PS1 experience sounds more like a burden than an aid. I'm not one to blind myself to reality for the sake of my self-indulgent imaginings. I think the experiences of working with one's outfit will pay off big time, but the meta game PS1 had likely won't translate very well at all into PS2. Coincidentally I think this will be a point of disinterest and frustration to some PS1 vets.

The new guys will be developing habits/tactics for PS2, while PS1 vets may need to first learn to break their old PS1 habits/tactics is all I'm saying. If you want a life example: reference how the French approached the onset of WWII thinking it'd be the same thing as WWI. That's just an example of how old strategies could go, however, not a guarantee.

To all my fellow veterans, all I ask is that you try and approach Planetside 2 with the intent to learn and accept new strategies and tactics, instead of clinging desperately to what worked in Planetside LIVE and getting angry should they fail.

Improvise. Adapt. Overcome. For Land. For Power. Forever.

[Tatwi]

Outfits will solve a lot of these issues. Leaders will remove people who refuse to "fall in line" with how that their outfit expects them to act/play. Eventually people will find a group to play with that matches their own personality and play style. Then, unlike every other MMO on Earth other than PS1, people will likely stay with their outfit for the long haul.

No raiding, no dungeons, no boss fights to lose, no loot, no "ilevel", no leveling, and as a result, no social friction associated with those things.

It may take a few months or even a year, but eventually most players will be "guilded" and thus, have less of a reason to interact with other people on their faction that they don't like. "Bitter old vets" will be leading some of the most effective social and tactical guilds in the game, but by the same token, there will be guilds made up of people from small-scale FPS games that absolutely will out skill and out play most other guilds. There will be rivalry between these kinds of guilds, especially on the same faction, but that's healthy.

What's not healthy is being the random fucktard/TKer that no one wants to play with. Thankfully, there will be an ignore and report feature.

[Papscal]

Shut up and play.

[Sephirex]

Shut up and play.

We would if we could, ol' chap.

[Death2All]

I won't mind that so much as what I'm expecting; vets getting mad that the game itself is wrong because X tactic doesn't work the way it used to, or is completely irrelevant due to fundamental gameplay differences.

I'm sure plenty of strategic skills will carry over, but it feels like a lot of people are [incorrectly] assuming they'll instantly know what's up with in-the-weeds tactics just because the names of a lot of things are the same, which will generate significant grief among those for whom this isn't the case.

Maybe I'm misreading it, but I honestly hope I'm wrong either way. Could do without a beta full of people demanding the game be made more like PS1.



To sum up what I just said:

I love old players! Just not ones who try to change a game into the image of a previous game they feel planetside 2 should be more like (i.e.: planetside 1)



To all my fellow veterans, all I ask is that you try and approach Planetside 2 with the intent to learn and accept new strategies and tactics, instead of clinging desperately to what worked in Planetside LIVE and getting angry should they fail.

Improvise. Adapt. Overcome. For Land. For Power. Forever.

Very well said, both of you. There's definitely going to be people bummed out that all the knowledge and skill they've acquired from the first game isn't going make any difference in the new game (myself included). After playing a game for some many years and transferring over to an entirely different one, it's definitely going to take some getting used to. I just hope I'm not completely blind sided by all the new game mechanics that I am a thumbless nub all over again.

[CountMeIn]

From the footage i have seen recently including one that had the VOIP of the players playing, more importantly how they were handling situations and reacting/nerd raging to certain in game events. i noticed that this game is going to be consumed with the accepted norm of current fps mentality. harassment, trolling, profanity, racism....add a F2P model with unlimited account creation possibility = a total recipe for disaster. i have read through the posts regarding the concerns about F2P already which are all mainly valid.


This game is going to heavily rely on old bitter vets, to renew old tactics and make them the accepted norm.

i watched a liberator pilot land his lib to repair, and get flamed by the gunner for taking to long, endless flame w/ harrasment.
this is the instant gratification "modern" fps gamers are used to.


i hope that with the overwhelming experience from vets, and large skilled outfits, our initial tactics and strategy set firm the foundation that made planetside 1 so great.

the opportunity to set the standard right off the bat is available to all of us. lets make it a mature experience, very much opposite of how LOL is currently. (just my example of the worst gaming community i have ever seen)

I guess this community is very mature, but you can never protect a game from children and noobs...it is just the way it is, and they too have to learn.:groovy:

But i agree with what you are saying.
Keep it as mature as possible, don't whine for getting killed or trolled by someone and don't spam random things that aren't game play in open world vent.
People will fail a lot in the beginning of the beta and the released game, but that is just natural and you will learn to handle it quickly, and that is what veterans are here for, to help the new people out.

[SleepyZombie]

Hang on, let me go smoke a pack of cigarillos, I need to get in character. Can't play the grizzled vet without a voice like a cement mixer, right?



I won't mind that so much as what I'm expecting; vets getting mad that the game itself is wrong because X tactic doesn't work the way it used to, or is completely irrelevant due to fundamental gameplay differences.

I'm sure plenty of strategic skills will carry over, but it feels like a lot of people are [incorrectly] assuming they'll instantly know what's up with in-the-weeds tactics just because the names of a lot of things are the same, which will generate significant grief among those for whom this isn't the case.

Maybe I'm misreading it, but I honestly hope I'm wrong either way. Could do without a beta full of people demanding the game be made more like PS1.



To sum up what I just said:

I love old players! Just not ones who try to change a game into the image of a previous game they feel planetside 2 should be more like (i.e.: planetside 1)

I think soe is doing a very good job at taking the tactics from planetside 1 and making sure they will still be viable in planetside 2.

I understand what you are saying and to a degree I agree but I think a big problem with sequels to older games the reason so many of them have been failing recently is because of to drastic deviations from the previous installment

ie
Diablo 2 ----> Diablo 3
TOR ----> SWTOR
Call of Duty ----> dear god where does it end
Halo ----> Meh halo was never good imo

Sadly these games did not live up to there successors and have been met with a lot of contention. The big problem comes when game companys try to reinvent the wheel when they should just leave well enough alone and stick with what made the game a hit and maybe change small aspects to improve upon the game.... Not change an aspect in hopes to make it more fun.

[sylphaen]

I count on 3 things to have things even up:
- player numbers (eventually you get shot however good you are)
- the grief system
- the mute system

Most people are decent and the few bad apples are easy to isolate. I never really had any issue over many years of PS and as D2A mentioned, PS players were not carols singers.

[Rivenshield]

I think a lot of our concerns can be ameliorated if we volunteer to take squads of random nooblets under our wing, especially during the first month. That will have a tremendous effect on the quality of the community to come, as we all know from our own history....

"Hello zerglings! My name's Rivenshield and I'll be your combat tour guide for today. I've been playing Planetside since 2003, I helped beta-test this game, and I'm delighted to have you on my side. We're going to have a lot of fun today. But before we get started, I want to talk a little about the history and traditions of the Terran Republic.

"Back in 2003, when this whole act was getting off the ground, a lot of the people who signed up for the TR were hard-core veterans of the primitive first-person shooters of the 1990's. These were very serious people. Some of them played the tournament circuit. Very team-oriented, very good at what they did. Professionals, like you saw in the cinematic. But they didn't boss us around or call us noobs. They led us by example and helped us, just like I'm helping you.

"They were our founding fathers. They taught us to move and fight as a team. And it's thanks to them that we're the infantry empire, the support empire. We put more lead downrange, heal more wounds, and fix more stuff than the other two empires put together.

"That's why we die pointing medical applicators at each other. That's why we shoot enemy vehicles with rifles, to distract the driver and give somebody else a chance to thump him. That's while we sit behind tanks under heavy fire with our glue guns out -- knowing we're gonna die, and we don't budge. We keep faith with the guy in that tank. It's Loyalty Until Death, for real, for each other. That's a real tradition, and it's something you can be proud to participate in.

"And we need those traditions. Because this is not a game -- not like you guys are used to. This is a war being fought out over a virtual battlefield, and a lot of the habits you formed playing other first person shooters will get you killed very quickly here. To survive in this new environment, you need to act in concert with the people around you. Even if they're not in your squad, or your outfit, and you won't see them for the rest of the day. You help them out so they can help you.

"That's how the Terran Republic has fought since day one. Together. And that is how we win.

"Now let's go find a big fight and jump in the middle of it. Trust me -- this will blow your mind."

[Emperor]

Correct me if I'm reading a bit into this, but the OP's post seems to skirt just shy of saying that new players are going to be rabble that the old guard needs to keep in line. While I definitely don't disagree that this game is going to get a large number of players who want instant gratification, don't know about tactics, and will need other players to put them in line, I don't like the assertions that these are "accepted norms" and that it's going to be solely on "bitter vets" to drill this out of people.

The players you described are simply bad players. Every team-based game has its share of people who contribute in no meaningful way, grab their guns and rush off without heed so they can get their first blood and kill streaks and what have you. This might not be because someone is new to a franchise, this might just be the way someone plays. Sometimes you can change that by showing them the value of teamwork; sometimes you can't.

This does not mean, however, that all new players are going to be like this. Again, correct me if I'm wrong on the message the OP was making, I might be looking at it a bit defensively since this will be my first foray into Planetside, but I think the onus isn't on just Planetside vets, it's on good players, period. There are players who will be coming into the game who know the value of teamwork, who know a thing or two about ops and tactics--perhaps not on as grand a scale, but certainly the foundation is there, the mentality is there.

Just please be aware that not all new players coming into Planetside are going to be trolls, racists, or bads with Rambo mentalities. Nor should it fall squarely on old Planetside players to try and work with those players; it should fall on the community as a whole. We really shouldn't be segregating ourselves into "vets" and "newbs," but rather team-oriented players and those who aren't.

[Tatwi]

Correct me if I'm reading a bit into this, but the OP's post seems to skirt just shy of saying that new players are going to be rabble that the old guard needs to keep in line.

No, what he said was that people on the Internet in general are a bunch of douche bags and a lot of them will try Planetside 2. Therefore it's up to the Planetside 1 vets, who will obviously be playing Planetside 2, to eliminate the influence of internet-douchebaggery by helping organize a strong community that does not reward internet-douchebaggery.

I'm pretty sure that the OP is well aware that there will many FPS guilds who will come to PS2 and pwn our pansy PS1 Vet arses.

[Glavius]

Just as in WoW, APB, or any other online game I play. I don't run with random groups of people. I'll squad up with my outfit so I'll rarely have to deal with the public.

That's the easiest way to get a good group of players who fit your play style. Obvious I know.

[Khellendros]

I think there's going to be a lot of bitter hate from the veterans of the first game coming down on the CoD/BF players that won't know what's going on.

Wut? More like ecstasy at all the easy targets.

[Rivenshield]

I'll squad up with my outfit so I'll rarely have to deal with the public.

Divvying one's empire up into a bunch of private cliques (a) will not assist the health of the community and (b) may actually hurt you in large-scale battle.

The TR has always had a high degree of cohesion. Strangers helping strangers, glue gun in hand, and freely swapping info with each other. That's why I wear the red and black. I don't want to see that go. I will try to pass on the old ways as best I can in as user-friendly a way as I can, without putting on airs.

[Littleman]

Divvying one's empire up into a bunch of private cliques (a) will not assist the health of the community and (b) may actually hurt you in large-scale battle.

The TR has always had a high degree of cohesion. Strangers helping strangers, glue gun in hand, and freely swapping info with each other. That's why I wear the red and black. I don't want to see that go. I will try to pass on the old ways as best I can in as user-friendly a way as I can, without putting on airs.

This is my plan too. Simply having their back is teaching them a lesson in and of itself, especially if they're surviving scenario's that would be impossible to tackle while low on ammo, badly wounded, and alone. There will always be people that will simply never get it, or are just warped enough to think they deserve treatment from the support roles, but I won't let them dissuade me. I've seen how the Terran Republic operates in PS1. If even half of the Republic FNGs in PS2 adopt a similar "one for all, all for one" mentality, we're going to kick a lot of ass.

Also, I agree on the divvying up part. I'm pretty much done with MMORPG's. I like to casually role-play, but most role-players pretty much join a guild and stick to just role-playing in their guilds. No wonder developers are so hesitant to support them. RP cliques just essentially negate any reason for a developer to provide an RP server. Guilds are totally capable of policing themselves.

This is just one example of how sticking to in-guild interactions kills communities.

NOTE: I'm not planning to role-play in Planetside 2. There's too much $#!% to shoot!

[Rivenshield]

I've seen how the Terran Republic operates in PS1. If even half of the Republic FNGs in PS2 adopt a similar "one for all, all for one" mentality, we're going to kick a lot of ass.

/brofist

All it takes is a critical mass of us. Not even a majority. We had that critical mass of very serious-minded but very friendly, helpful hard-core gamers -- at least on Markov -- and they made all the difference in the world. They still are. In my big long user-intro screed (/points at previous page) I call them our founding fathers for a reason.

It's time to return the favor.

[Goldeh]

From the footage i have seen recently including one that had the VOIP of the players playing, more importantly how they were handling situations and reacting/nerd raging to certain in game events. i noticed that this game is going to be consumed with the accepted norm of current fps mentality. harassment, trolling, profanity, racism....add a F2P model with unlimited account creation possibility = a total recipe for disaster. i have read through the posts regarding the concerns about F2P already which are all mainly valid.


This game is going to heavily rely on old bitter vets, to renew old tactics and make them the accepted norm.

i watched a liberator pilot land his lib to repair, and get flamed by the gunner for taking to long, endless flame w/ harrasment.
this is the instant gratification "modern" fps gamers are used to.


)

I'm confused, which video was this? Was it the Raw & Uncut video by Totalbiscuit?

Also, ya using WoW as an example, it's pretty bad. SO yeap It'll be interesting for sure. Just gotta show em' how it's done eh?

[Rodel]

I have faith. The dynamic of planetside provides a common enemy for your entire empire while heavily stressing teamwork. PS1 had an excellent community of players because of this and PS2 won't be any different.

Remember this is NOT an FPS and its NOT a MMORPG its something different so don't get bogged down comparing it to other games. It really is its own beast and I for one will never harass a newcomer.:cool:

[Crator]

There will defiantly be a meta-game.... I'm pretty sure of it.... What would be the point of having a mission system without needing goals? Outfits in PS1 were about teamwork... Not all of them, but a good chunk had open arm policies to anyone. And would regularly hold training sessions. I was never a part of building a foundation for a successful outfit in PS1 but it requires knowledge of how most of the meta-game works alongside the classes/weapons/vehicles. And of course the game isn't going to be just like PS1. But if something doesn't jive with the meta-game, you can bet the bitter vets will most likely have the best suggestions to fix it.

[Emperor]

No, what he said was that people on the Internet in general are a bunch of douche bags and a lot of them will try Planetside 2. Therefore it's up to the Planetside 1 vets, who will obviously be playing Planetside 2, to eliminate the influence of internet-douchebaggery by helping organize a strong community that does not reward internet-douchebaggery.

I'm pretty sure that the OP is well aware that there will many FPS guilds who will come to PS2 and pwn our pansy PS1 Vet arses.
Well, it's not about FPS guilds coming in and owning anybody; what I'm saying is, it shouldn't just be up to PS1 vets to "eliminate douchebaggery" and "organize a strong community." It should be up to good players in general, new to the franchise or not.

[Broadside]

If someone gets mad at you for taking too long to repair, there is always a nice patch of hard ground to take a nose dive into.

[OnexBigxHebrew]

From the footage i have seen recently including one that had the VOIP of the players playing, more importantly how they were handling situations and reacting/nerd raging to certain in game events. i noticed that this game is going to be consumed with the accepted norm of current fps mentality. harassment, trolling, profanity, racism....add a F2P model with unlimited account creation possibility = a total recipe for disaster. i have read through the posts regarding the concerns about F2P already which are all mainly valid.


This game is going to heavily rely on old bitter vets, to renew old tactics and make them the accepted norm.

i watched a liberator pilot land his lib to repair, and get flamed by the gunner for taking to long, endless flame w/ harrasment.
this is the instant gratification "modern" fps gamers are used to.


i hope that with the overwhelming experience from vets, and large skilled outfits, our initial tactics and strategy set firm the foundation that made planetside 1 so great.

the opportunity to set the standard right off the bat is available to all of us. lets make it a mature experience, very much opposite of how LOL is currently. (just my example of the worst gaming community i have ever seen)

I agree that 'vets' are important, but let's not pretend the bitter attitude is necessary, or that profanity, harassment, trolling and racism are traits exclusive to modern fps players. My very FIRST interaction with a vet on this forum ended up with them linking to my Facebook, game stats, and calling me a bunch of Jewish slurs after making references to my IRL appearance - all because I supported ADS. It was, to say the least, profane, racist harassment.

Vets are what made PS1. The key to even greater success in PS2 is a healthy interaction with the classier members of to outside modern fps players that come here, and us being respectful and learning in return.

[Landtank]

It's a free to play game, so the ability to pick up and play and have fun has to be there. While vets will be useful, we hopefully won't have to be necessary.

[Littleman]

If someone gets mad at you for taking too long to repair, there is always a nice patch of hard ground to take a nose dive into.

I'd sooner just fly normally and get shot down extra fast, then whisper them that we could have survived if only I had the time to fully repair the craft. Hopefully they learn a lesson that way. After that, they can just get out and hoof it next time to avoid getting shot down, or stick with me and not get farmed by aircraft because they're hoofing it.

[Brusi]

hmmm... speaking of gaming communities.

Remember EQ? Each server seemed to have a different community and the persistence of that game definitely made being a ninjalooter/bigot/fuckwit a hard life on most servers.

Yeah, those days are over... but hopefully as the OP said, we can instil some form of community pressure to not be a fuckwit in game.

[Goku]

Minimizing bitterness is good, but if someone really does get mad at you for taking to long to fix the plane while they sit in the gunners seat its probably acceptable to turn the bitterness up to 11 at that moment. Actually just fly out of bounds or over water and dump them assuming that still works.

This. I would of done that in a heartbeat.

[OnexBigxHebrew]

This. I would of done that in a heartbeat.

Ice cold haha

[GhettoPrince]

Oh yeah, because people that played a video game 10 years ago are the only ones that understand teamwork and "tactics".

Of course planetside teamwork was hoping that someone remembered to bring an AMS or defend the generator and the only tactics were finding the AMS's and dropping the generators...

[elementHTTP]

... LOL is currently. (just my example of the worst gaming community i have ever seen)
You need to see DayZ forums THAT IS BAD COMMUNITY and they will come to ps2 :D:D:D

[Reizod]

It's a free to play game, so the ability to pick up and play and have fun has to be there. While vets will be useful, we hopefully won't have to be necessary.

I agree 100% with this.

When it comes to the overall tactics that comes with a massive fps game like PS which entails some patience, that we vets developed over the years. We still need the newbs to also chip in and help "police" others as well.

I think we (vets) will be outnumbered anyway with the direction PS2 devs are going. Which is not a bad thing. Though I really think it's going the be a smack in the face to all the new comers that still think PS2 is going to give the instant gratification they are used to. I don't blame them since PS2 devs have been hyping the game in this way (E3 "action packed" demos etc) for months.

[Irish]

Correct me if I'm reading a bit into this, but the OP's post seems to skirt just shy of saying that new players are going to be rabble that the old guard needs to keep in line. While I definitely don't disagree that this game is going to get a large number of players who want instant gratification, don't know about tactics, and will need other players to put them in line, I don't like the assertions that these are "accepted norms" and that it's going to be solely on "bitter vets" to drill this out of people.

The players you described are simply bad players. Every team-based game has its share of people who contribute in no meaningful way, grab their guns and rush off without heed so they can get their first blood and kill streaks and what have you. This might not be because someone is new to a franchise, this might just be the way someone plays. Sometimes you can change that by showing them the value of teamwork; sometimes you can't.

This does not mean, however, that all new players are going to be like this. Again, correct me if I'm wrong on the message the OP was making, I might be looking at it a bit defensively since this will be my first foray into Planetside, but I think the onus isn't on just Planetside vets, it's on good players, period. There are players who will be coming into the game who know the value of teamwork, who know a thing or two about ops and tactics--perhaps not on as grand a scale, but certainly the foundation is there, the mentality is there.

Just please be aware that not all new players coming into Planetside are going to be trolls, racists, or bads with Rambo mentalities. Nor should it fall squarely on old Planetside players to try and work with those players; it should fall on the community as a whole. We really shouldn't be segregating ourselves into "vets" and "newbs," but rather team-oriented players and those who aren't.


noted. i appreciate your point of view.

[james]

I love new players! Just not ones who try to change a game into the image of a previous game they feel planetside 2 should be more like

but becuase you played ps1 it should be like ps1.

[Buggsy]

COD players will play anything with pretty graphics. If you want the older crowd make a more cerebral FPS game.

How to combine the 2 play styles: pretty graphics + more cerebral FPS game.

I agree 100% with this.

When it comes to the overall tactics that comes with a massive fps game like PS which entails some patience, that we vets developed over the years. We still need the newbs to also chip in and help "police" others as well.

I think we (vets) will be outnumbered anyway with the direction PS2 devs are going. Which is not a bad thing. Though I really think it's going the be a smack in the face to all the new comers that still think PS2 is going to give the instant gratification they are used to. I don't blame them since PS2 devs have been hyping the game in this way (E3 "action packed" demos etc) for months.

I don't understand some of you guys, PS1 had plenty of instant gratification, I used the instant action button all the time. But at least it had more cerebral type of game play too (that is before players started getting the CUD abilities command rank).

Oh yeah, because people that played a video game 10 years ago are the only ones that understand teamwork and "tactics".

Of course planetside teamwork was hoping that someone remembered to bring an AMS or defend the generator and the only tactics were finding the AMS's and dropping the generators...

(before CUD abilities) there were 100X more tactics available in PS1 than you would find in BF2, and it's not cause the maps were bigger.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

Personally I would of found a mountain in the middle of nowhere and left him to fend for him self. Spend 10-15mins walking back.... or kill your self. Seems like justice to me

can you?

Serious question. I used to pack grenades so I could kill myself but I don't want to spend resources suiciding.

I've also got a feeling that the insta gib kids *will* be cannon fodder and *will* need to be kept in line by bittervets. There will be no tactics for a few weeks/months till the useless ones lose interest and go back to cod and the good ones join tactical outfits and become bittervets themselves.

[Landtank]

can you?

Serious question. I used to pack grenades so I could kill myself but I don't want to spend resources suiciding.

I've also got a feeling that the insta gib kids *will* be cannon fodder and *will* need to be kept in line by bittervets. There will be no tactics for a few weeks/months till the useless ones lose interest and go back to cod and the good ones join tactical outfits and become bittervets themselves.

That is exactly what will kill this game. Think about what you said.

[SleepyZombie]

can you?

Serious question. I used to pack grenades so I could kill myself but I don't want to spend resources suiciding.

I've also got a feeling that the insta gib kids *will* be cannon fodder and *will* need to be kept in line by bittervets. There will be no tactics for a few weeks/months till the useless ones lose interest and go back to cod and the good ones join tactical outfits and become bittervets themselves.

Sorta, you could teleport back to sanctuary or instant action out or pretty much suicide and re spawn some place. However you still spend more time doing that than its going to take me to take my aircraft into battle.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

That is exactly what will kill this game. Think about what you said.

woah... massive deja vous just then.

Yeah, i know that will kill the game. Just like i know I'll die and the sun will explode and the universe is generally black in colour.

so what? I don't get it. You think this game won't ever die ever or are you blaming me for killing it in the alpha?

[Airanuva]

Uhhh... Technically, I'm a new guy. I am a complete newbie to this game, but I am definitely interested in it.
If I was some flippant and arrogant child who thought he'd be praised as "The master of Planetside 2" because I was good at sniping people in CoD... I'd first slap myself and then let this grizzled veteran slap me, just for how stupid I would be, but I am not this annoying child.
I'm no master of FPS, I hardly play. Hell, the only FPS I play with any amount of regularity is TF2, and there I play the W+M1 pyro. But, despite not being good with twitch skills or even aiming, I am at least willing to learn.
But, I am not willing to follow someone who treats me like dirt. I understand that I am terrible, I don't need someone who's played since PS1 beta to tell me that.

I can best sum up my feelings on this topic as such:

You're in a WoW group, doing the lowest DPS. Someone tells you to "L2P n00b!" in response to your low dps. That guy could be the head of the biggest and most successful guild in the game, but you aren't going to listen to him.
Now, same group, but instead of the guy just saying "L2P" he gives you advice and attempts to help you. You can be a little miffed that someone is telling you how to play, but you are far more willing to listen to him.


TL;DR: I'm new to the game, and won't follow someone who is rude like a bitter veteran. I'll follow someone who is more willing to help.

[UnknownDT]

We are all so old...

[Brusi]

woah... massive deja vous just then.

Yeah, i know that will kill the game. Just like i know I'll die and the sun will explode and the universe is generally black in colour.

so what? I don't get it. You think this game won't ever die ever or are you blaming me for killing it in the alpha?

Aahaha!

There is currently a /suicide command. I would prefer if it wasn't left in the game after beta, however as we all know... sometimes it's just better to kill yourself than walk back to the battle for 5-10 mins.

As long as /sucide is not an integral part of gameplay and people aren't /suciding because they ran outta ammo, then no problems. I doubt it would be anyway, considering your weapons and items will cost resources to spawn.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

Uhhh... Technically, I'm a new guy. I am a complete newbie to this game, but I am definitely interested in it.
If I was some flippant and arrogant child who thought he'd be praised as "The master of Planetside 2" because I was good at sniping people in CoD... I'd first slap myself and then let this grizzled veteran slap me, just for how stupid I would be, but I am not this annoying child.
I'm no master of FPS, I hardly play. Hell, the only FPS I play with any amount of regularity is TF2, and there I play the W+M1 pyro. But, despite not being good with twitch skills or even aiming, I am at least willing to learn.
But, I am not willing to follow someone who treats me like dirt. I understand that I am terrible, I don't need someone who's played since PS1 beta to tell me that.

I can best sum up my feelings on this topic as such:

You're in a WoW group, doing the lowest DPS. Someone tells you to "L2P n00b!" in response to your low dps. That guy could be the head of the biggest and most successful guild in the game, but you aren't going to listen to him.
Now, same group, but instead of the guy just saying "L2P" he gives you advice and attempts to help you. You can be a little miffed that someone is telling you how to play, but you are far more willing to listen to him.


TL;DR: I'm new to the game, and won't follow someone who is rude like a bitter veteran. I'll follow someone who is more willing to help.

Most vets I've encountered have actually been a bit too helpful and caring. I'm smarter than the average muppet, so I don't need to be told to stand behind the maxes 18 times in 5 minutes. But that happened. true story.

As for the bittervets, well... just hope they're a degree of rank away from you and so you won't have to interact with them.

[GODJOEY]

Definitely will be interesting.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

Aahaha!

There is currently a /suicide command. I would prefer if it wasn't left in the game after beta, however as we all know... sometimes it's just better to kill yourself than walk back to the battle for 5-10 mins.

As long as /sucide is not an integral part of gameplay and people aren't /suciding because they ran outta ammo, then no problems. I doubt it would be anyway, considering your weapons and items will cost resources to spawn.

Right, I understand now. He thought I was going to do mad 'sploitz and /suicide whenever I have 5 health left so as to deprive others of kills.

My intent was far more honourable than that. If I somehow find myself in the middle of nowhere, I'd like to have large cliffs / lava / deep water / wandering pack animals / de-spawn tubes / or even an enemy with a weapon nearby so that I can die and get back to the front lines faster. Or I could kill myself with my quick-knife.

I won't be trying to deprive the enemy of kills through dishonourable methods. That's no fun - a zero sum game maybe?

[Landtank]

woah... massive deja vous just then.

Yeah, i know that will kill the game. Just like i know I'll die and the sun will explode and the universe is generally black in colour.

so what? I don't get it. You think this game won't ever die ever or are you blaming me for killing it in the alpha?

I'm saying that it will kill the game prematurely. Look at what happened to Planetside 1, big subscription base at first, and then after the first six months it dropped drastically.

SOE has plans to make this game last well into the future, as is evidenced by the fact that they are including graphical options that can't be run by today's computers. If they want that to last, then they need to attract a very large player base, and keep that player base.

I don't like the idea of having to join an outfit just to experience the tactical part of the game, in my best fights in PS1 I was with random people who I had never met before working together to crush the embarrassingly ugly VS.

This game will have to cater to a lot of different playstyles in order to be successful.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

I'm saying that it will kill the game prematurely. Look at what happened to Planetside 1, big subscription base at first, and then after the first six months it dropped drastically.
This will happen with PS2 also. A lot of curious people will realise that "it's not for me" and quit. Hopefully they tell their friends about it first.

SOE has plans to make this game last well into the future, as is evidenced by the fact that they are including graphical options that can't be run by today's computers. If they want that to last, then they need to attract a very large player base, and keep that player base.
Yes. This is true. How do you attract a large player base without attracting people who will quit after 3 months? Maybe if you attract a OMFGWTF THAT IS HUUUUGE player base you will end up (in 6 months) with the "right sized" player base?

I don't like the idea of having to join an outfit just to experience the tactical part of the game,
Neither do I. I like having choices that lead me to be awesome faster. Min/Maxing I think it's called. Outfits have already got tactical training and expertise. You can see what they specialise in, join up, learn some neat stuff from them which will make you a better overall player and then you can quit them at any time without penalty. Or you could not join either but it'll take longer to learn that neat stuff. I want it now.

in my best fights in PS1 I was with random people who I had never met before working together to crush the embarrassingly ugly VS.Fantastic! But you said working together. Did you do it tactically? With support from medics and engineers and a unified plan? Or did you jump around 360 quickscoping as a bunch of 10 individuals with no teamwork or coherent plan?

This game will have to cater to a lot of different playstyles in order to be successful. Yes indeedy.

blah

[Landtank]

blah

Hah word,

Yes we did! We had a medic, the occasional engineer, and perhaps a galaxy here and there. We were for the most part screwing around having fun, but we still used what "tactics" there were in PS1.

Although the unified plan was usually centered around killing the enemy.. so take that as you will :D

[Noivad]

This post my 1st Vet step. This is NOT a recruiting post.

I guess I'm a non beta - old (2004,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,2012) vet. Except for 6 months I paid and played the whole time. I don't think I'm bitter vet. I welcome any player who values organized teamwork, who wants to have fun, can take direction, and learn from mistakes. I don't care what game they have or have not played. What good or bad habits they have developed. Once PS2 is launched anyone can try out to see if we are a good fit for them. If we are not, there will be plenty of outfits out there who might fit the bill for them.

I have played along side many different outfits, some very organized, some not organized at all. I would suggest that new players to Planetside try out a bunch of them before settling on who you decide to invest your time in.

While I don't perfer SOLO play, the solo player had value in PS1 and will have value in PS2. The Zerg as we called them, was always something some of us tried to control to assit us in our own plans.

I'm sure there will be a griefing system similar to PS1 to handle that type of player who just have to muck with friendly players so I am not concerned about them..

The smart Outfits will have a plan in place to establish themselves in game. Some will play it by ear. I plan on using beta to help guide me in exactly what type of outfit DOG becomes. I am considering the Light Infantry with the glider packs to shoot for first.
Transportation will be the mosquito.

It is nice to NOT have to require my members to spend certs for a vehicle. TY SOE.

PS2s Mission system will allow the the solo player to goto the fight with some idea of what is happening. He can pick what leader he wants to follow even if he is not part of the outfit that setup the mission he is looking at. NOT like PS1 Instant action where if there was fighting on more then one map you never knew where you might go. So there will be plenty of unorganized solo playing that anyone can go to.

DOG will be doing its training on the forest - swamp map first. We will be learning how to fight the BIO Dome first. Thats my plan.

As I gain experience in PS2, and as other responsible vets gain experience they will help the new guys out if they are willing to learn. Take them under their wing. And just as easy through them back to the Zerg if they don't work out.

PS2 will have gameplay that anyone and everyone can have fun at. Its more diverse then any other FPS out there. I'm looking forward to having fun alongside of all of you. I just hope that you VS and NC I kill have fun dieing when DOG takes you out ;)

[GODJOEY]

Title reminds me of this pic.

http://epicdemotivational.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/so-demotivational-posters-achievements.jpg

[Exmortius]

bitter old vets will keep the new players in line :P
the vets will have a great understanding of keeping the balance and hopefully there will be far less balance rage and the devs learned from mistakes made from ps1. i think game balance is where a lot of games fail and the devs and ps in general seems to have an extraordinary amount of balance consideration the 2nd time around.

[Snipefrag]

COD players will play anything with pretty graphics. If you want the older crowd make a more cerebral FPS game.

How to combine the 2 play styles: pretty graphics + more cerebral FPS game.



I don't understand some of you guys, PS1 had plenty of instant gratification, I used the instant action button all the time. But at least it had more cerebral type of game play too (that is before players started getting the CUD abilities command rank).



(before CUD abilities) there were 100X more tactics available in PS1 than you would find in BF2, and it's not cause the maps were bigger.

Jesus, why don't you shut up about the CUD. Every post i see you bitching about it, obsessive compulsive much?

[Arcticus]

The bane of any national defense is the General who's always trying to fight the previous war.

It's not whether the old vet is bitter; it's whether he's effective. If, instead of adapting, he's bitter because he regards the game as broken because the old tactics no longer work, then he will find himself without noobs to lead.

It's not about bitter vet vs noob...it's about bitter vet vs better vet.

[Zar]

Hang on, let me go smoke a pack of cigarillos, I need to get in character. Can't play the grizzled vet without a voice like a cement mixer, right?



I won't mind that so much as what I'm expecting; vets getting mad that the game itself is wrong because X tactic doesn't work the way it used to, or is completely irrelevant due to fundamental gameplay differences.

I'm sure plenty of strategic skills will carry over, but it feels like a lot of people are [incorrectly] assuming they'll instantly know what's up with in-the-weeds tactics just because the names of a lot of things are the same, which will generate significant grief among those for whom this isn't the case.

Maybe I'm misreading it, but I honestly hope I'm wrong either way. Could do without a beta full of people demanding the game be made more like PS1.



To sum up what I just said:

I love old players! Just not ones who try to change a game into the image of a previous game they feel planetside 2 should be more like (i.e.: planetside 1)
as far as i can tell alot of tactic's will still work that are in ps1 even some new one's that my group is already coming up with. alot of new mechanic's are good ps1 players or any fps player will either change their play style to win and have fun or rage and leave either way its a good day p.s. this isn't nor ever will be call of duty side or bfside XD. if that's what you think wellll..... i shall bake you a cookie and the world will be amazing again.

[Xyntech]

The game will definitely benefit from having vets who know how to run large scale operations in an MMOFPS.

But it most certainly won't benefit from anyone who is any kind of legitimate "bitter" vet. People who bitch about how "this isn't like the first game" and shit will be just as bad for the game as someone complaining that you're taking too long to repair the aircraft.

The vocal majority always tends to have a higher percentage of assholes. That will be true for veterans of the first game, as well as new players coming in from other games. There will be plenty of bitter vets who will be constantly raising shitstorms (especially early on), and plenty of loud newcomers who will bitch about the most inane things. But overall, there will be plenty of veterans who will be invaluable to helping new players understand how an MMOFPS works, and there will be plenty of newcomers who will be happy to learn.

Hopefully the vocal majority won't have too ridiculously high of a percentage of bitching and moaning, either on the vet side or the new player side. But even if most of the loud players are detrimental, there will still be tons of players, old and new, who will be just fine.

Let's stop thinking the best or worst of either group. There's a lot of potential for both good and bad in either camp.

[Loco]

I agree that vets will have a use in the game.

I however also believe new players will be needed as well. It's all been said here before..

-- New tactics will be necessary.

-- Outfits will be necessary.

In my experience any outfit worth it's salt will have recruitment squads open for anyone to invite.

My advice to anyone not familiar with PS1 would be to join one of these recruitment squads. You can get a good feel for how they play.

Some are either really strict. "When I say Jump you jump"

Others are really loose. "We're attacking this base. Go for it!"

Find what your comfortable with and join up.

Personally I find the outfits that have a command structure, training, and laid out protocols to be the most fun to join.

Working as a team is probably the most satisfying thing I've experienced in PS1. I'm sure it'll be there in PS2.

[Yago]

Vets don't have to be "bitter" , the same as new players don't have to be "noobs" .

If people are screaming and abusing their squad/platoon/outfit/enemy , then they are just an arsehole . That fact will have little bearing on PS2 , they will be just the same person upon logging out , an arsehole .

[p0intman]

Vent
ts3

I'm not worried about new blood not being able to cooperate. They're either on comms, or they're left behind.

[kadrin]

but becuase you played ps1 it should be like ps1.

Considering this game is called PLANETSIDE 2, yes, I actually would expect it to be similar to PLANETSIDE 1.

You don't buy the new CoD title expecting it to be a completely different game, you're expecting it to be new but similar to the previous titles. Same goes with any game franchise.

There are a lot of changes that I don't agree with in PS2, for example, classes, no inventory, driver/gunners, the TTK, but I'm not unreasonable and understand the new direction the game is moving in. That doesn't mean that I'm okay with this game getting rid of everything that made the first PS great to go and be a Battlefield clone on a massive scale.

It's like everyone assumes we've only ever played PS since it's release in 2003 because we're PS vets. I started playing FPS games back in 1996, and have played almost every major shooter title since then and many many of the not as big budget games. I haven't been living under a rock, I've seen how the genre has evolved and there are many things I like and just as many that I don't.

We liked PS1 for what it was, and I'm not saying it was perfect and didn't need anything changed, but when it comes to changes for PS2, we're going to go with what we liked and what worked in PS1 because this is supposed to be its successor. Just because it worked in Battlefield or CoD doesn't mean its going to work and we need it in PS2.

[TAA]

Yes abuse will be a problem. No, the PS1 vets will not do anything about it. The only people that could do something about it are the game developers, through the careful engineering of a game environment that actively discourages bad behavior. Yes, it can be done. I posted these two articles in another thread. Read one of them here (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132005/fixing_online_gaming_idiocy_a_.php). This is another short little article (http://www.psychologyofgames.com/2010/02/deindividuation-and-antisocial-behavior/) talking about why this sort of behavior happens online. This is a link to a Microsoft Research paper (http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CHUQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2 Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.84.5025%26rep%3Drep1%26ty pe%3Dpdf&ei=lcr2T6zjL-WsiAe6g9SDBw&usg=AFQjCNFwI1-N2hJj-lXBu0MUTriBasWshA&sig2=SOSKiu-azffn8iI531lXFw) into the problem.

I proposed a suggestion that might help here (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=44554). That suggestion is about as simple as it gets. The real solutions to the problem of online harassment and abuse are hard to implement. It requires research. It requires that the devs track behavior, analyse triggers for that behavior, then integrate concepts to minimize those triggers directly into the game itself (refer to first link above).

Make no mistake though: this is something that is entirely up to the developers. There is nothing you or I or any PS1 vet can do to solve this problem. If the devs choose to ignore it they do so at the cost of their own profits.

[Karrade]

Don't debate or moddy coddle new people entering the game - just do it. People will go where and towards who they like. Nothing complicated about it.

Organised outfits will clean up the streets as always, we'll just have more bugs I mean people to squash.


Vent
ts3

I'm not worried about new blood not being able to cooperate. They're either on comms, or they're left behind.

Pretty much this. It just takes people standing up in the first place, like anything life.

[Malorn]

As an old vet I'm more inclined to facepalming than bitterness.

[Mister Morden]

the problem is that there are some vets that just want a ps1 with better graphics and some slightly improvements, so their opinions are a bit static.

[Firearms]

It's good to know that the vets will be sorting out all the piss poor FPS players. It will allow them to take the moral high ground instead of whining about BF players using their 10 years of experience in single manned tanks, or bailing with a launcher.....:rofl:

[Rivenshield]

TL;DR: I'm new to the game, and won't follow someone who is rude like a bitter veteran. I'll follow someone who is more willing to help.

Come to the Terran Republic. You'll be a happy man.

[GuyFawkes]

Regardless of what is on the veterans shoulders to kinda create the community for this game trolling flaming and general douche baggery is going to be prevalent.



ps1 had more than its fair share of veteran douche bags, trolling and flaming over the years

ps2 will add to this with new blood within the ranks I'm sure.

[Baneblade]

Before I start rolling the dice, let me put on my robe and wizard hat.


Personally, I think both 'camps' will be in for a rude awakening. The adhd fps kids and the socalled PS1 vets will both be thrust into a war that doesn't cater to either and will be forced to adapt or die.

[CutterJohn]

Need vets? No. Of course not. There were no vets for PS1. Tactics were figured out.

Vets are not special. Most of them didn't even use any tactics, much less fancy ones. All those zerglings that people were constantly complaining about? Yeah, those are vets too.

[Zekeen]

Need vets? No. Of course not. There were no vets for PS1. Tactics were figured out.

Vets are not special. Most of them didn't even use any tactics, much less fancy ones. All those zerglings that people were constantly complaining about? Yeah, those are vets too.

The problem isn't the need for vets necessarily.... it's the cultural difference of gamers. Planetside is a different game than is out there and takes getting used to. Vets have spent their time in PS1 and gotten used to it, but are also from a time when gamers had a LOT more patience. Hell, most of us had to use our LUNGS to get a game to work.

Today, I've seen the new generation thinking the world revolves around them, both time and space. They want full refunds for games that release a day late, think that game design is magic and can be done with ease, and otherwise beleive that every game should be like the first game they played. They never heard the word "tactics" and think strategy involves planning how many times you are going to teabag a corpse.

Vets are needed to get new players into the idea that patience means more action. That waiting an extra second scores an extra kill, and that repairing your vehicle is important. Vets are needed to lead outfits from experience and organize new players to work together wit hthe old. With a vet, you don't have anyone with a standing idea on many of the game tactics, it's our job to share these, so that in the first year, every new player becomes a "vet" as well.

Really, without us, it's like starting a war without any officers and sending in a wave of untaught privates toward each other. We have the knowledge... we know the tactics, and we have planned our strategies. It's all about passing it on to the new generation so we all become the same generation.

[CutterJohn]

I think someone has an overinflated sense of self importance. They'll manage. Like all who grow older, you give the younger generation far to little credit.

[Zekeen]

I think someone has an overinflated sense of self importance. They'll manage. Like all who grow older, you give the younger generation far to little credit.

It's not about what the younger generation is capable of, it's about what they've been exposed to. They haven't played PS1 or any game with such a great amount of tactics, therefore, they haven't had a chance to learn. The first few months is going to be old Vets leading the good squads and the new guys learning how the tactics work from the older vets.

Half the new guys watching PS2 still don't get that it works in such a massive way, they're still confused on what we mean by thousands of players, because they've never seen it. Vets gotta show them the ropes or it'll take em longer to figure tactics and strategy out. Speeds the game to 100% tactics at the start instead of it taking months to reach that stage.

Call it "overinflated self importance" if you want, I call it mentoring and passing on the torch.

[GuyFawkes]

We have the knowledge... we know the tactics, and we have planned our strategies. It's all about passing it on to the new generation so we all become the same generation.

Sorry to burst this bubble you are in but even the developers dont know what the tactics/strategies are yet. They are waiting for beta to see what grows/works etc. The whole resource thing on paper might be a great idea, but it could turn out to be a turd and they rethink it. In ps1 there was no lattice on release, just 1 example.

Everyone is welcome, and the devs appreciate the input given from the ps1 community, but a lot of their inspiration for the new game is from references to other more modern games, and the need for new player input is just as important.

[rTekku]

It's not about what the younger generation is capable of, it's about what they've been exposed to. They haven't played PS1 or any game with such a great amount of tactics, therefore, they haven't had a chance to learn. The first few months is going to be old Vets leading the good squads and the new guys learning how the tactics work from the older vets.

Half the new guys watching PS2 still don't get that it works in such a massive way, they're still confused on what we mean by thousands of players, because they've never seen it. Vets gotta show them the ropes or it'll take em longer to figure tactics and strategy out. Speeds the game to 100% tactics at the start instead of it taking months to reach that stage.

Call it "overinflated self importance" if you want, I call it mentoring and passing on the torch.

When you say "younger generations", exactly what ages are you referring too? Because there are plenty of gamers who are young and had to use their lungs to fix their games and have never played PS1. Myself included.

[Zekeen]

Sorry to burst this bubble you are in but even the developers dont know what the tactics/strategies are yet. They are waiting for beta to see what grows/works etc. The whole resource thing on paper might be a great idea, but it could turn out to be a turd and they rethink it. In ps1 there was no lattice on release, just 1 example.

Everyone is welcome, and the devs appreciate the input given from the ps1 community, but a lot of their inspiration for the new game is from references to other more modern games, and the need for new player input is just as important.

That's a higher strategic scale that I'm talking about. I'm talking about the tactics we know from PS1 that won't change that much. Knowing how to organize a squad with different vehicles, Galaxy drops, using infantry with MAX's inside facilities, ect. Squad and combat tactics. These new guys don't understand squad leadership because they never needed it. Most games are about you and you alone, occassional teamwork. We know the concept of organizing with leadership, and they will probably need a helping hand to learn it. They just don't have that much exposure yet.

When you say "younger generations", exactly what ages are you referring too? Because there are plenty of gamers who are young and had to use their lungs to fix their games and have never played PS1. Myself included.

A rather large portion of FPS gamers only stick to COD and/or Halo. It's rather a frightening sight. And by younger generation, I mean people who were too young when PS1 came out and missed it. This is anywhere from 14-20 at the current time.

[Emperor]

The amount of generalizations Zekeen is putting forth is thick enough to cut with a force blade.

They...beleive that every game should be like the first game they played
The irony here is strong.

[Revanmug]

That's a higher strategic scale that I'm talking about. I'm talking about the tactics we know from PS1 that won't change that much. Knowing how to organize a squad with different vehicles, Galaxy drops, using infantry with MAX's inside facilities, ect. Squad and combat tactics. These new guys don't understand squad leadership because they never needed it. Most games are about you and you alone, occassional teamwork. We know the concept of organizing with leadership, and they will probably need a helping hand to learn it. They just don't have that much exposure yet.



A rather large portion of FPS gamers only stick to COD and/or Halo. It's rather a frightening sight.

You are pretty retard if you put "not needed" with "unable to understand". And if some people don't like to group, you are not going to change their taste. Problem with that?

[Exmortius]

ya but scumbag ahdh kiddies probably won't last long in the veteran outfits who know how to attack noobs. they will get cast out pretty quick with the limited outfit sizes. which is why i think this limit is good.

[rTekku]

A rather large portion of FPS gamers only stick to COD and/or Halo. It's rather a frightening sight. And by younger generation, I mean people who were too young when PS1 came out and missed it. This is anywhere from 14-20 at the current time.

Yeah, because in games like Battlefield, there is absolutely no need for any teamwork.

Grab a group of your PS1 buddies and try competing against some of the top teams in Battlefield, come back and tell me we know nothing of organizing players and working together.

By the way, i'm 20 and was well aware of Planetside 1 at the time of it's release. Obviously since I was younger and PS1 was subscription based, I could not play it. I was also not a fan of Halo or CoD nor am I a fan of those games today.

[GrayWave]

ya but scumbag ahdh kiddies probably won't last long in the veteran outfits who know how to attack noobs. they will get cast out pretty quick with the limited outfit sizes. which is why i think this limit is good.

You use "ADHD" like it's something immoral and shameful, and yet you're calling other people scumbags?

Ugh.

[Zekeen]

You are pretty retard if you put "not needed" with "unable to understand". And if some people don't like to group, you are not going to change their taste. Problem with that?

I love how my opinion to MENTOR, HELP, and TEACH new players not so used to MASSIVE SCALE ORGANIZATION is met with insults at my inability to understand some actually have experience from certain games. But 64 is a far lower number than 399.


Yeah, because in games like Battlefield, there is absolutely no need for any teamwork.

Grab a group of your PS1 buddies and try competing against some of the top teams in Battlefield, come back and tell me we know nothing of organizing players and working together.

By the way, i'm 20 and was well aware of Planetside 1 at the time of it's release. Obviously since I was younger and PS1 was subscription based, I could not play it. I was also not a fan of Halo or CoD nor am I a fan of those games today.

I know some people who don't play games that have any grouping or strategy to them. I'm OBVIOUSLY not saying the whole freaking world younger than me is inexperienced with leadership. There's a hefty number of people who don't do groups or large scale grouping. PS2 has organization and grouping on a scale even larger than BF can have, but I never said BF players have no experience. You're taking a generalization, meant for the large numbers of players outside your gaming range, who haven't really had anything to do with gaming with very large groups. And even BF players will need some guidence at first with some tactics. There are some things PS1 vets know that BF vets don't when it comes to PS2 tactics.

You can all just pretend that ALL players have some super clan structure and know what it's like to play in large groups, or you can understand that many people entering PS2 won't have that much experience with 30 man groups working along side OTHER 30 man groups to take over an objective. I'm just saying vets gotta help these people out, you guys got a problem with helping or something?

[Revanmug]

I love how my opinion to MENTOR, HELP, and TEACH new players not so used to MASSIVE SCALE ORGANIZATION is met with insults at my inability to understand some actually have experience from certain games. But 64 is a far lower number than 399.

well well look at this. From your own word...

they're still confused on what we mean by thousands of players, because they've never seen it.

You have no clue how PS2 will be like. Except if hundred is close to thousand now? Who is going to mentor you poor man?


I love the "MASSIVE SCALE ORGANISATION"... Come on, the majority of ps1 were zerging with smaller outfit doing more specific thing around. Or perhaps are you unable to understand your own experience?

[rTekku]

We have a problem with your generalizations, Zekeen.

[Red Beard]

Argue about something more trivial plz.

[Zekeen]

You have no clue how PS2 will be like. Except if hundred is close to thousand now? Who is going to mentor you poor man?

I love the "MASSIVE SCALE ORGANISATION"... Come on, the majority of ps1 were zerging with smaller outfit doing more specific thing around. Or perhaps are you unable to understand your own experience?

A LOT of those outfits were friends with each other and worked together until the wierd aftershock stuff came in and many of the outfits left. Before that point it was rather organized. I'm guessing you either just played the game once or saw some video on youtube if you think there organization has always been "zerging".

And with thousands of people, it's the same as hundreds, we'll be broken into large bands working together. It'll still stand at about 30 people, 3 groups of 10, and having to work alongside other platoons of 30. We know how to work along 6 groups of 10 people to take a single objective, and sometimes 9 squads of 10. You're just not seeing the trees because of the forest.

We have a problem with your generalizations, Zekeen.

I've already explained my generalization isn't meant for people like you who organize in a game, or for clans that work among themselves. I'm talking about a large portion of gamers that are involved in solo, individualistic, gaming without working as a team. Take it or leave it, but I'm not argueing over what my "generalizations" mean anymore. You either get what I'm saying or ignore it.

[Karrade]

PS1 in its hayday had a lot of combined assaults as it was fun, and people did what was fun to start with. - Lots of mass galdrops for instance.

You can argue if you must whether that is organised or not organised but the result was the same.

Later as time went on, sure there was always a zerg, but the zerg bases usually got flipped by people working together, it will be no different here, the only difference is outfits will be being made from day one, with core people who know how to think tactically in them.

Cooperation = Win, pretty much universally across life. Something schools try to beat out of you into a competitive mindset instead, twisting what Darwin actually said, not survival of the fittest as he is misquoted in saying time after time - survival of the most adaptive, frequently those groups who worked together the best to solve issues.

I don't see how anyone will be in for a rude awakening if they realise teamwork or cooperation beats greater disorganised or chaotic numbers most times, that'll be all they need to see.

NB - I don't see the outfit numbers limit being an issue, if anyone gets that big, it'll be one for mostly air, one for mostly ground, as a very easy example.

[Crator]

Guys, I think the conflict that non-PS1 players are having with what PS1 vets are saying here (and some PS1 vets make this mistake too) is that most of the time when they are talking about helping new players they aren't talking about the organized groups of people who are used to team work in other FPS games outside of PS1. And it seems some PS1 vets are perhaps full of themselves if they think only PS1 vets can figure out tactics in a larger scaled games such as PS2 vs. other FPS games. But I'd take the comments with a grain of salt... Because they really only apply to those who are not used to real organization in a FPS (whether it be from PS1 or any other modern FPS game out there)... So really, it's not about PS1 Vets > non-PS1 vets it's more like PS1 vets = non-PS1 vets... Can't we all just get along!?

[Rbstr]

This whole argument is dumb.
These things are everywhere. All of this stuff - player organization to their advantage, specialized groups, metagamer circlejerks and bitchfests (as this thread already demonstrates) and so on - is going to happen organically, like it has in every MMO since the beginning of the medium. As long as people are free to chose their associations this will happen. Some will come in as a group from other games, others will form spontaneously, some are going to play solo. That's always they way it goes. PS2 is no different.


The idea of PS1 vets as some kind of unique teamplay-oriented group is silly (and I say that as a ps1 vet and former outfit higher-up).
MMOs are rife with large scale cooperation, many of those players play FPS as well. A PS outfit leader's magically spawning vehicles, 30-man platoons and dozen-or-so map world is nothing compared to the scales of what an EVE commander deals with: Fleets of a thousand plus, non-homogenuous travel mechanics, that fact that war resources have a cost, actual politics instead of already-decided allegiances.
This stuff just isn't that special, guys.

[lolroflroflcake]

Really people just need to go into this game willing to learn, vets do have a leg up yes, but if someone refuses to adapt its gonna be just as hard. Everyone will have something new to learn going into the game that is the whole fun of having an updated version its different but its still Planetside, it presents new challenges but in a familiar format.

Although I would like to say this, if there is one group of people that a vet needs to respect for their ability despite not actually playing Planetside 1, its people who were good at Command and Conquer Renegade. It was incredibly similar to the original Planetside and they will have many of the same skills not found in any other FPSes.

[Buggsy]

The last people SOE should be listening to are the people that stayed subscribed to PS1 well after BFR's were introduced. They wouldn't know fun if it hit them in the face. Anyone who thinks bouncing around in BFR's and hitting CUD-cheat I-win buttons all day is a good game seriously needs to get their heads checked.

No siree bob. SOE should be listening to players who QUIT PS1 after BFR's came out, like me. Yeah I know it's a convenient argument to make but it's true, all of it, cross my heart hope you die stick a needle in your eye.


I love the "MASSIVE SCALE ORGANISATION"...

cat herding/zerging. Squads wouldn't know good tactics if it hit them upside the face, unless it's exploiting game mechanics like the Sturmgrenadiers, then they excel.

That's a higher strategic scale that I'm talking about. I'm talking about the tactics we know from PS1 that won't change that much. Knowing how to organize a squad with different vehicles, Galaxy drops, using infantry with MAX's inside facilities, ect. Squad and combat tactics. These new guys don't understand squad leadership because they never needed it.

Allowing galaxies to spawn infantry, and infantry to spawn infantry isn't going to improve squad tactics, it's just going to make them lazier and dumber. My sniper rifle awaits.

ps1 had more than its fair share of veteran douche bags, trolling and flaming over the years

ps2 will add to this with new blood within the ranks I'm sure.

In Memory of Leslie Nielsen (and George Zip) - YouTube

[Landtank]

Allowing galaxies to spawn infantry, and infantry to spawn infantry isn't going to improve squad tactics, it's just going to make them lazier and dumber. My sniper rifle awaits.]

How can you even begin to make this assumption. Squad spawning isn't evil, or bad for that manner, if done in the correct way.

[Buggsy]

How can you even begin to make this assumption. Squad spawning isn't evil, or bad for that manner, if done in the correct way.

There is no correct way for infantry spawning infantry. Infantry should never spawn infantry.

[Landtank]

There is no correct way for infantry spawning infantry. Infantry should never spawn infantry.

There is a correct way, it's called drop podding in. I'm in favor of a beacon system that can be destroyed by enemies, it creates a front line and allows it to be pushed back without some random guy hanging behind enemy lines.

Anyways, not the right thread! My bad.

BFR's aren't terrible now, they are actually pretty fun, but in the beginning they were awful machines of subscription-killing power!

[Buggsy]

infantry spawning infantry means this will not exist:

PlanetSide 2 Massive Air Combat - YouTube

PlanetSide 2 -- Ground Assault on Tech Plant HVAR - YouTube

What do these videos show? A front line on the micro scale, and infantry concentrations. That will not exist without AMS spawning.

[Greenthy]

AMS > squad spawn
Adds a layer to tactical in the form of setting up a base cap, a layer to defend (ex: lose AMS and get pushed into a capping base)

But this isn't Planetside 1 with better graphs, it's planetside rehashed. We'll have to see how it goes.
And who knows, the sky is the limit as long as all the coders and developers stay onboard.

[Landtank]

Galaxy spawns peopleeeeeee

[Buggsy]

Galaxy spawns peopleeeeeee

They fly -1
They are huge and will be mercilessly camped -1

The AMS can't fly +1
The AMS has a cloak +1
You can reload ammo at the AMS +1

AMS > squad spawn
Adds a layer to tactical in the form of setting up a base cap, a layer to defend (ex: lose AMS and get pushed into a capping base)

But this isn't Planetside 1 with better graphs, it's planetside rehashed. We'll have to see how it goes.
And who knows, the sky is the limit as long as all the coders and developers stay onboard.

You should already know how it will go.

[Landtank]

They fly -1
They are huge and will be mercilessly camped -1

The AMS can't fly +1
The AMS has a cloak +1
You can reload ammo at the AMS +1





1: The Galaxy flying makes very little difference, if you want it to not be seen then fly low, problem solved. +1 for versatility

2: No they won't, just like AMS's weren't. +1

3: Galaxy can cert to have a cloak +1

4: You can reload ammo from the Galaxy AND shoot people from it +2

5: Everyone can get a Galaxy, not everyone will be able to fly it, so they won't be spammed like an AMS would be. +5


Squad spawning in a beacon form allows for front lines to be pushed forwards, while keeping the Galaxy as a primary spawn point and staging ground, as it should be.

[Rivenshield]

I agree that taking into account WHAT WE KNOW NOW:

1) dynamic spheres of influence
2) squad drop pod beacons (that do not work inside an NME SOE)
3) Galaxies that can spawn and equip ground troops (ditto)

-- that there is still a fun, useful role for the good old AMS. It is small and unobtrusive and has a cloaking shield and can be deployed anywhere. And it should be a seperate vehicle, not just a cert tree for the Sunderer. But for the love of God, make it FASTER so it can cover the vast distances in this new Auraxis.

In a similar vein, bring back the ANT -- as a cert tree for each empire's fighter craft. You fly back to a warp gate, deploy this pod-thing, it soaks up nanites, then you bring it back and top off the base's central generator.

Either or both of these would bring back the element of logistics and supply that were so vital to the original game.

[Buggsy]

1: The Galaxy flying makes very little difference, if you want it to not be seen then fly low, problem solved. +1 for versatility

2: No they won't, just like AMS's weren't. +1

3: Galaxy can cert to have a cloak +1

4: You can reload ammo from the Galaxy AND shoot people from it +2

5: Everyone can get a Galaxy, not everyone will be able to fly it, so they won't be spammed like an AMS would be. +5


Squad spawning in a beacon form allows for front lines to be pushed forwards, while keeping the Galaxy as a primary spawn point and staging ground, as it should be.

1) Why not make tanks fly. -1 Versatility

2) AMS wasn't camped cause it was cloaked -1

3) That will be lame, and everyone will know where one would land so it will still be camped. -1

4) Why would infantry walk back to something that's camped? -2

5) Of course the Galaxy won't be spammed because Infantry spawning Infantry, and the close proximity of fixed spawn points, means Galaxy spawning infantry is just bells and whistles. -5

[Littleman]

The last few posts are why a bittervet* can actually be a worse player (game play and community wise) than the "CoD kids" so many fear will be playing PS2. At least the newbs are not stuck thinking in a decade-old game's terms. Those that can adapt will lead the way, not the bittervets.

I can sort of understand why someone would want a ground AMS (yet I think all this sneaking around will be a waste of time simply due to the hex system) but asking for it separate from a sunderer's cert tree is pandering to nostalgia no matter how you look at it. It's simply unnecessary to make a whole new vehicle model for a purpose the sunderer can easily cover.

*Bittervet used here to determine someone still thinking PS2 will play mostly like PS1... and it won't. The only common features between the two are 8x8km maps and the empires.

[QFAN]

From all the readings and videos I've seen recently, I would like to think PS2 as a completely new game rather than a sequel.

There are just so many big changes that our old style may not work at all.

[exLupo]

There will be some relative theory analogues that will persist. PS1 is the only place, in FPS culture at least, where wide and mixed arms multi-terrain battles take place. Sadly, that's where all of the knowledge lies.

[GuyFawkes]

That's a higher strategic scale that I'm talking about.



fair enough

I love how my opinion to MENTOR, HELP, and TEACH new players not so used to MASSIVE SCALE ORGANIZATION is met with insults at my inability to understand some actually have experience from certain games. But 64 is a far lower number than 399.

You can all just pretend that ALL players have some super clan structure and know what it's like to play in large groups, or you can understand that many people entering PS2 won't have that much experience with 30 man groups working along side OTHER 30 man groups to take over an objective. I'm just saying vets gotta help these people out, you guys got a problem with helping or something?

Ive no problem with anyone helping anyone, its welcome. It just comes over as very patronizing and condescending the way you put it.
If you say ''hi, I'm Zekeen, a ps1 vet, and anyone new to the game needs help just ask anytime'' thats great.
Implying that they have to have your help, despite never playing ps2 at all, and all assumptions are made based upon a previous game with no class structure, totally different gunplay and team dynamics, new maps, bases,resources, everything is cutting it a bit fine.
Give any semi-decent clan coming from other games, and within an hour or 2 they will have worked the basics out for themselves. I'd go one step further, due to the more competitive nature of the beast they came from, as opposed to the more cerebral pace of ps1, on a unit level they may be far more organised than most ps1 outfits.
Don't get me wrong, the outfits like DT,unleashed and the like will remain potent,strong and effective, along with newcomers that offer them a decent challenge again.

I'm sure your intentions are the best, but it could turn out you need the newcomers input just as much as they may need yours. Just saying;)

[Landtank]

The last few posts are why a bittervet* can actually be a worse player (game play and community wise) than the "CoD kids" so many fear will be playing PS2. At least the newbs are not stuck thinking in a decade-old game's terms. Those that can adapt will lead the way, not the bittervets.

I can sort of understand why someone would want a ground AMS (yet I think all this sneaking around will be a waste of time simply due to the hex system) but asking for it separate from a sunderer's cert tree is pandering to nostalgia no matter how you look at it. It's simply unnecessary to make a whole new vehicle model for a purpose the sunderer can easily cover.

*Bittervet used here to determine someone still thinking PS2 will play mostly like PS1... and it won't. The only common features between the two are 8x8km maps and the empires.

Dis post <3

[Rivenshield]

I can sort of understand why someone would want a ground AMS (yet I think all this sneaking around will be a waste of time simply due to the hex system) but asking for it separate from a sunderer's cert tree is pandering to nostalgia no matter how you look at it. It's simply unnecessary to make a whole new vehicle model for a purpose the sunderer can easily cover.

/shrug

We could dispense with buggies as a post-release feature, too. All we need is a cert tree for the Sundie that will trade armor for lots of bouncy jouncy speed.

But that wouldn't be as much fun.