Planetside2 Dog fighting Question - for Community Day people and beyond

[Biscuit]

I held off posting a thread about this some time ago, wanted to make sure this wasnt talked about before.


I Watched the current videos from various sources (both Comm. Day and the tech Tests) and read comments that piloting will be much harder and in some aspects similar to piloting a heli from BF3; havent played BF series unfortunately.

What im wondering though is the dogfighting elements for PS2.

In comparison of Planetside 1 when in a dog fight, majority of the battles boiled down getting the higher altitude, being stationary and firing. there wasnt so much of the worry of fighting gravity since Ps1 aircraft can simply just hover with no effort involved.

In Ps2 however, their seems to be alot of movement in the air, very few aircraft that move in low speed usually seems to be attacking ground troops. outside of that, Im assuming the lack of moving and maneuvers is a death sentence in the air due to air vehicles now having alot less armor when taken out, the customization of swapping into Air-2-Air missles, and notable moments of banking hard to the left or right when moving at a high speed.



Will the same core Ps1 dog fighting tactics be valid in ps2?
Will the Ps1 tactics still be used, but added over into Ps2?
or Will dogfighting in Ps2 will be night and day compared to Ps1?

[Reizod]

Will the same core Ps1 dog fighting tactics be valid in ps2?
Will the Ps1 tactics still be used, but added over into Ps2?
or Will dogfighting in Ps2 will be night and day compared to Ps1?


Answer to first question: Nope
Answer to second question: Not really
Answer to third question: Yes

Hope this helps.

[GreatMazinkaise]

I've heard that most aircraft handle more or less like BF3 jets (Scythe excepted). This may or may not mean anything to you.

[Comet]

It will be much different from PS1 from the sounds of it (I have followed this topic closely) and will reward the skilled player.

[MrKWalmsley]

From what I've seen it should be quite different. Whenever you add a new dimension to a game it tends to shake up tactic quite a lot. The scythe in particular as I'm sure you've guessed.

[TheStigma]

I haven't gotten to pilot any of these craft myself yet (and if I had I couldn't tell you due to NDA anyway) but from what I've seen of ingame footage so far it seems like all flight-vehicles now behave fundamentally different from how they did in PS1.

Basically in PS1 there were no proper flight mechanics. All flying vehicles were more or less hovercraft. In PS2 they seem to have proper physics and behave much close to how you might expect a traditional plane to handle. That said of course they all seem to have some level of capacity for slow flight and/or hovering so its not exactly like a jet-fighter. The scythe especially seems to be able to do some seemingly physics-defying manouvers (and this is probably by design I'm guessing).

In short I expect much more "traditional" dogfighting in PS2 - ie. lots of flying around and manouvering rather than hovering relatively still and firing. Also you are likely to see strafing runs against ground-targets rather than sideways circlestrafing. I've also heard they handle more like a BF3 jet than anything that was in PS1, but I expect they will be significantly different also.

Anything more than this is hard to say at this point. Thankfully beta is supposedly on track for "next week" so we will get to test them out properly :)

EDIT: I think its safe to say that flying in PS2 will be significantly harder than PS1 - which is a good thing. It seperates the good pilots from the bad. The actual piloting of flying vehicles in PS1 unfortunately didn't require a whole lot of skill or practice, and left little roof for finesse apart from having good aim and a grasp of the tactical situation around you.

PS: about beta - does anyone know how strict the NDA will be for beta - if it will be active at all? Will streaming/youtubing be allowed, and will be be allowed to discuss the game in public? Seems a bit weird to me if they plan to keep a strict NDA in beta with so many people being allowed access. There would probably be too many leaks to effectively control...

-Stigma

[Comet]

I'm sure there will still be an NDA. At least for the first while of beta anyway.

[vVRedOctoberVv]

Doesn't matter. I can't fly worth a shit, anyway. I'm mostly a danger to myself and tall foliage.

[Gonefshn]

definitely going to be night and day.

Also keep in mind there will be many more lock on weapons, flares, etc.

so much more to think about as well as a completely different flight mechanic.

Biggest thing too, you can fly ANY direction including upside down, straight up etc. Being above someone doesn't make as much of a difference in a truly 3D space because being below them could mean the same thing.

[Zar]

funny thing is,from how hard it was to get flying on the community day play build it really wasn't that hard and i am not a super ace pilot took me 30 sec's my first try to get used to it and start wrecking folk's =x so I think the "it's harder and will take skill* statement is a person to person gauge. if you ever a flew in bf1942 you are solid it' pretty much that with a bit faster jet's xD vtol and hovering tho does take some getting use to but you will be able to do it day 1 with a bit of trail and error. i will say one thing jumping out of a moving air craft and being able to jump back in need's to go away >.< that is silly and an abusive tactic waiting to happen xD.

[TheStigma]

definitely going to be night and day.

Also keep in mind there will be many more lock on weapons, flares, etc.

so much more to think about as well as a completely different flight mechanic.

Biggest thing too, you can fly ANY direction including upside down, straight up etc. Being above someone doesn't make as much of a difference in a truly 3D space because being below them could mean the same thing.

Not quite. Having the higher position is usually a good thing as long as we aren't talking about space-flight. The reason is simple: Having more altitude means to you can trade that for more speed/acceleration. Meanwhile the guy below you will have to sacrifice it to climb up. There is also the factor that people generally pay much more attention to the ground than the sky. Being high up will generally let you get the jump on others more easily.

I get what you meant though :)

-Stigma

funny thing is,from how hard it was to get flying on the community day play build it really wasn't that hard and i am not a super ace pilot took me 30 sec's my first try to get used to it and start wrecking folk's =x so I think the "it's harder and will take skill* statement is a person to person gauge. if you ever a flew in bf1942 you are solid it' pretty much that with a bit faster jet's xD vtol and hovering tho does take some getting use to but you will be able to do it day 1 with a bit of trail and error. i will say one thing jumping out of a moving air craft and being able to jump back in need's to go away >.< that is silly and an abusive tactic waiting to happen xD.

To be more spesific - I don't PS2 flyers will be particularly hard. I certainly don't expect them to be require as tight controlling as BF3 jets for example. I was just comparing it to PS1, which was redicolusly easy. In that game you could just let go of the controls and the vehicle would just stop dead in the air more or less.

Its also worth nothing that just because the flight model dosn't require days to learn just do basic manouvering dosn't mean its bad or dumbed down. Now that we have full manouverability and can do full loops and rolls it opens up a very wide range of potential manouvers - many of which might not be exactly trivial to master :) If they can pull off the "easy to learn, hard to master" golden target then that's all the better :)

-Stigma

[Vertigo]

Wonder if there will be a key to target nearest enemy aircraft or target in reticle, like most flight combat sims. It is going to be a madhouse in the air and there will be a lot of friendly-fire incidents early on. Should only apply to aircraft, and perhaps vehicles, since they would naturally have a targeting and sensor suite built-in. I noticed in the gameplay videos and livestreams, that most of the dogfighting consisted of fighters orbiting each other until somebody got a line on an enemy. Pretty much world-war 2 style dogfighting using visual ID and targeting.

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with that on it's face. As I recall, PS1 was the same way (when I played it). It lends itself to a couple different tactics. First is getting really good at identifying your enemy visually, which everyone should do anyway. Second, those who aren't as good at that, will concentrate on "bombing runs" where they fly in, fire off as many shots as they can, and speed away, rinse and repeat. Then there are the people who get into the furball and hope for the best.

[TheStigma]

Wonder if there will be a key to target nearest enemy aircraft or target in reticle, like most flight combat sims. It is going to be a madhouse in the air and there will be a lot of friendly-fire incidents early on. Should only apply to aircraft, and perhaps vehicles, since they would naturally have a targeting and sensor suite built-in. I noticed in the gameplay videos and livestreams, that most of the dogfighting consisted of fighters orbiting each other until somebody got a line on an enemy. Pretty much world-war 2 style dogfighting using visual ID and targeting.

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with that on it's face. As I recall, PS1 was the same way (when I played it). It lends itself to a couple different tactics. First is getting really good at identifying your enemy visually, which everyone should do anyway. Second, those who aren't as good at that, will concentrate on "bombing runs" where they fly in, fire off as many shots as they can, and speed away, rinse and repeat. Then there are the people who get into the furball and hope for the best.

I haven't seen anything like a targeting system so far - and nothing like that was ever in PS1 either. That said I can EASILY see something like that (or air-radar or similar) being one of the sidegrades or optional modules you can put in your flyer. Of course you might have to give up something else important to fit it in ... but that's all good :)

-Stigma

[Vertigo]

I haven't seen anything like a targeting system so far - and nothing like that was ever in PS1 either. That said I can EASILY see something like that (or air-radar or similar) being one of the sidegrades or optional modules you can put in your flyer. Of course you might have to give up something else important to fit it in ... but that's all good :)

-Stigma

I figured as much. I only played planetside for maybe a year in the beginning. As I recall, the mosquito was the "scout" fighter that could spot enemy movements. A similar sensor package could certainly be a viable sidegrade to any air (or ground) vehicle that can support it. Somebody needs to fly the AWACS so the rest of us know who the heck we are shooting at. There is already a mark target button for infantry so they show up on the map (and you can see their name apparently). I'm mainly looking for something that will at least give me a direction indicator on my hud when flying. It's the old-school X-Wing pilot in me talking.

[soulsurfsublime]

I think another factor that will have to be taken in is the day/night cycle. Moving at break neck speed in the pitch black I hope will make for some really insane memorable moments. Then do you put the spotlight/headlights on your vehicle and make yourself a big glowing beacon or adapt to low visibility. I know in Bf3 as infantry I never run flash light or laser sight because I fell it gives your position away so badly. And BF3 night is very sub par to PS2's amazing night cycle.

[Tvayda]

I really hope they make the flight mechanics somewhat realistic like Higby was hinting at. Having G-forces and angle of attack play a part into it would be awesome! The dog-fighting would be most intense if it was so!

[Vertigo]

I think another factor that will have to be taken in is the day/night cycle. Moving at break neck speed in the pitch black I hope will make for some really insane memorable moments. Then do you put the spotlight/headlights on your vehicle and make yourself a big glowing beacon or adapt to low visibility. I know in Bf3 as infantry I never run flash light or laser sight because I fell it gives your position away so badly. And BF3 night is very sub par to PS2's amazing night cycle.

From the videos, the engine exhaust is what will give you away the most. Then it comes down to what shape it takes to identify what fighter it is. Also remember that any allied aircraft will have it's name displayed, and probably have an icon. I'd think the darkness would hide ground vehicles more than aircraft.

[Reizod]

I really hope they make the flight mechanics somewhat realistic like Higby was hinting at. Having G-forces and angle of attack play a part into it would be awesome! The dog-fighting would be most intense if it was so!

You're going to be happy then!

I just can't wait to see all the Aircraft sidegrades and certs. Ooooh, all the customization possibilities have me... :D

[XxAxMayxX]

all of the aircraft can hover and go fairly fast with afterburners. they do have more physics and they still fly much like any other modern fps

[ZaBa]

From the videos, the engine exhaust is what will give you away the most. Then it comes down to what shape it takes to identify what fighter it is. Also remember that any allied aircraft will have it's name displayed, and probably have an icon. I'd think the darkness would hide ground vehicles more than aircraft.

Stealth for vehicles has been talked about in various contexts, but honestly being able to reduce/remove engine glow and contrails at the expense of speed or something would be at least as good as actual invisibility for night ops. Maybe throw in a little noise suppression as well, since being able to hear aircraft overflight and identify them from the sound is a thing now.

[LegioX]

I want to see proper E-retention placed in the game. That way Scythe players (like myself) can fly high above the map and be able to "boom and zoom" reavers, which are faster. There will be no way to even catch a reaver in a dive with the way mechanics are now.

[Rodel]

Could somebody please describe what make these flight characteristics different. Tell me what buttons your pressing or something. I heard total biscuit say that to turn the mechanics require you to roll and then pitch... like an actual plane. That was good... I finally had some insight into flying. Give me more please!!!

P.S. When Total Biscuit chose his name, because he's British, was he really picking the name Total Cookie?

[Reizod]

Could somebody please describe what make these flight characteristics different. Tell me what buttons your pressing or something. I heard total biscuit say that to turn the mechanics require you to roll and then pitch... like an actual plane. That was good... I finally had some insight into flying. Give me more please!!!

P.S. When Total Biscuit chose his name, because he's British, was he really picking the name Total Cookie?

When you ask "different"... compared to what, the old PS flight physics? If you are, then it's very much different in almost every way.

[Broadside]

The only thing I don't like about flying in PS2 is the camera. Rather than like the BF3 camera that only changes it's angle when you go upside down (as in it stays locked upright while you do hard turns), the PS2 camera is locked to the angle of the aircraft and turns whenever you turn. It's kind of disorienting and makes the aircraft feel slower and more jerky.

[maradine]

Could somebody please describe what make these flight characteristics different. Tell me what buttons your pressing or something. I heard total biscuit say that to turn the mechanics require you to roll and then pitch... like an actual plane. That was good... I finally had some insight into flying. Give me more please!!!

The three primary axes of rotation are distinct. You can roll, yaw, and pitch separately. You also have a station-keeping VTOL drive that operates at low airspeeds at varying levels of effectiveness in the different aircraft. All of the above can be mapped wherever you want.

When NDA lifts I'll be filling up the forums with flight model garbage, rest assured. :)

[Arovien]

Flight mechanics feel very similar to BF3. Basically the same control scheme. From Higby's comments, air combat is pretty damn spot on from what he has said. The one thing that is kinda awkward is that the up and down movement from the mouse is not inverted by default (I am assuming we can change that). Beyond me why inverted is not the default...
The unlocks for the air vehicles are gonna play a huge roll in air combat. No one has tested that out yet (i think).

[Reizod]

Flight mechanics feel very similar to BF3. Basically the same control scheme. From Higby's comments, air combat is pretty damn spot on from what he has said. The one thing that is kinda awkward is that the up and down movement from the mouse is not inverted by default (I am assuming we can change that). Beyond me why inverted is not the default...
The unlocks for the air vehicles are gonna play a huge roll in air combat. No one has tested that out yet (i think).

Well, hopefully next week we get to test out the sidegrades for everything. I'm sure they will tweak and change the stats on things several times before final release based on our feedback.

[MrMorton]

I held off posting a thread about this some time ago, wanted to make sure this wasnt talked about before.


I Watched the current videos from various sources (both Comm. Day and the tech Tests) and read comments that piloting will be much harder and in some aspects similar to piloting a heli from BF3; havent played BF series unfortunately.

What im wondering though is the dogfighting elements for PS2.

In comparison of Planetside 1 when in a dog fight, majority of the battles boiled down getting the higher altitude, being stationary and firing. there wasnt so much of the worry of fighting gravity since Ps1 aircraft can simply just hover with no effort involved.

In Ps2 however, their seems to be alot of movement in the air, very few aircraft that move in low speed usually seems to be attacking ground troops. outside of that, Im assuming the lack of moving and maneuvers is a death sentence in the air due to air vehicles now having alot less armor when taken out, the customization of swapping into Air-2-Air missles, and notable moments of banking hard to the left or right when moving at a high speed.



Will the same core Ps1 dog fighting tactics be valid in ps2?
Will the Ps1 tactics still be used, but added over into Ps2?
or Will dogfighting in Ps2 will be night and day compared to Ps1?


I made a thread speculating about this a while ago.

basically i see hovering as being a death sentence to any faction besides NC because the ttk's seem pretty darn fast.

As far as the tactics I hope to see (more like an actual flight game) I outlined them over here (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=42507)

[Rodel]

The three primary axes of rotation are distinct. You can roll, yaw, and pitch separately. You also have a station-keeping VTOL drive that operates at low airspeeds at varying levels of effectiveness in the different aircraft. All of the above can be mapped wherever you want.

When NDA lifts I'll be filling up the forums with flight model garbage, rest assured. :)

Thank you sooooo much and that sounds like fun.

[Reizod]

I made a thread speculating about this a while ago.

basically i see hovering as being a death sentence to any faction besides NC because the ttk's seem pretty darn fast.

As far as the tactics I hope to see (more like an actual flight game) I outlined them over here (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=42507)

I disagree, as you still have to consider what the sidegrades will do for aircraft. All of those things have NOT been available/tested yet. There may be something that gives more armor, shields, etc. that buys you time for hovering.

If not, then it will be crazy once everyone starts getting into the game as it will be impossible to fly anywhere. Long term wise, combining a massive amount of players in a game like this with fast ttk's DON'T mix. It's never been done before, and we are the genie pigs for it.

Having faith in the Devs, I foresee them compensating for this via sidegrades.

[MrMorton]

I disagree, as you still have to consider what the sidegrades will do for aircraft. All of those things have NOT been available/tested yet. There may be something that gives more armor, shields, etc. that buys you time for hovering.

If not, then it will be crazy once everyone starts getting into the game as it will be impossible to fly anywhere. Long term wise, combining a massive amount of players in a game like this with fast ttk's DON'T mix. It's never been done before, and we are the genie pigs for it.

Having faith in the Devs, I foresee them compensating for this via sidegrades.

I said that badly :/ , ttk isn't really the issue.

what I meant was I think in a dogfight it will be a bad idea to "turret" compared to other maneuvers you can do to stay alive longer (most notably the mosquito's ability to hit and escape from any battle)

I also hope the ttk will be longer, but no matter the ttk, a hovering aircraft can be engaged at any range easily, while a moving one gets progressively harder to engage as range increases, so a moving aircraft always has some advantage in a dogfight.

as far as sidegrades go, I am a strong believer of buffing strengths, not compensating for weaknesses. For instance if I am flying in a scythe, it is more beneficial to buff my turn rate as much as possible, because no matter how much i buff for anything else, the other factions will always be better at it (if they buff their strength) , and I sacrifice my advantage gained by that sidegrade, practically "wasting" it.

And based on that logic the best turret will be the reaver, not to say that is all it is good at (it seems to be the jack of all trades aircraft).


The three primary axes of rotation are distinct. You can roll, yaw, and pitch separately. You also have a station-keeping VTOL drive that operates at low airspeeds at varying levels of effectiveness in the different aircraft. All of the above can be mapped wherever you want.

When NDA lifts I'll be filling up the forums with flight model garbage, rest assured. :)

O.O

i must know!!!!

ok, can you answer this one question?: does gravity affect climbing/diving speed?

>.<

[Gonefshn]

I'm looking forward to flight in this game, I never flew in PS1 because it was so basic but this game will be so much better.