MAXs and regen / repair [Archive]

TerminatorUK

2012-07-23, 03:30 PM

So I've watched a fair few gameplay footage videos which have included MAX units.

I have a fair number of thoughts which I'm going to reserve judgement on until beta, however, I have seen some differences in terms of regen / repair.

In the E3 footage, there were a few instances where, after not taking damage for 20-30 secs, the MAX armour would self-repair very slowly.

The regen was pretty slow, definitely not enough to imbalance combat itself, certainly not replacing a good engineer on standby but seemed to be pretty spot on to reward a careful MAX user and to help keep you going with the very fast pace of PS2.

In addition, the combination of only a single class able to repair you with common small arms (carried by all classes) dealing significant damage to MAXs (rather than only AV weapons as per PS1), I'd personally like to see the E3 regen make a return (at the very least as a MAX special option).

In the recent tech test streams, the regen seems to have gone leaving the class very dependant on others again.

Like other infantry classes, I think the MAX needs an armour bar (which incidently needs a colour other than green to separate it from the health bar) that slowly regens as per E3 and a health bar which doesn't.

MasterMind

2012-07-23, 03:34 PM

regen is the devil

Flaropri

2012-07-23, 03:38 PM

In the recent tech test streams, the regen seems to have gone leaving the class very dependant on others again.

Are you sure it's not just a lack of Certs/mods/implants on that specific character?

For example the auto-repair on vehicles is a mod that may not be taken by some players (preferring other alternatives in the slot or just not having the Cert yet).

vVRedOctoberVv

2012-07-23, 03:39 PM

Not enough infos on this. Need more infos to comment. Oh, wait, I commented anyway. Oh well.

TerminatorUK

2012-07-23, 03:43 PM

Are you sure it's not just a lack of Certs/mods/implants on that specific character?

For example the auto-repair on vehicles is a mod that may not be taken by some players (preferring other alternatives in the slot or just not having the Cert yet).

Well you might indeed be right - pure speculation from me at the moment.

I'd like to think that it was a cert / option etc...

Memeotis

2012-07-23, 04:15 PM

You're spot on. There needs to be a universal regeneration for all classes that does not influence combat, but allow players to keep the pace going.

30-40 out of combat before it kicks in, and at a rate of about 12 seconds to get 100% for softies, 15 seconds for HA and 35 seconds for MAX. ... or something like that.

If there is no regeneration, I think it will severely slow down the game, since players who have low health will be extremely careful, regardless of how much they care about K:Dr - because people don't want to waste their time.

The worst case scenario is that players with very low health, who are within running distance of the nearest objective, would rather commit suicide than to keep going.

TerminatorUK

2012-07-23, 04:37 PM

Ranik Ortega

2012-07-23, 04:46 PM

Littleman

2012-07-23, 04:54 PM

From what i saw of the gameplay video's infanty already have health and armor/shields. Armor/Shields seems to regenerate on it's own. health does not. Regenerating shields are bad enough and we do not need Regenerating health as well

There is regenerating health, but it takes some time to kick in, and that timer probably resets whenever one fires their weapon or takes a hit, even to their shield.

Considering respawn times and the absolute abundance of spawn points (not counting the galaxies or squad spawning) waiting for health regen one may as well have been killed and returned to the battle. Only now they don't have a full stock of ammo (unless they're an engineer.) To look at it another way, the player could have just as easily popped out a medical applicator and nano dispenser like in PS1, only they're allowed to remain mobile and armed.

Coincidentally, you won't notice your enemies nor allies HP regening after an eternity in FPS terms, and you'll certainly be glad it comes back with no medic support nearby but also, no combat for a while. Essentially, people that intentionally wait for regen might as well be dead anyway. A medic will always be better to keep nearby.

Ranik Ortega

2012-07-23, 04:58 PM

There is regenerating health, but it takes some time to kick in, and that timer probably resets whenever one fires their weapon or takes a hit, even to their shield.

Considering respawn times and the absolute abundance of spawn points (not counting the galaxies or squad spawning) waiting for health regen one may as well have been killed and returned to the battle. Only now they don't have a full stock of ammo (unless they're an engineer.) To look at it another way, the player could have just as easily popped out a medical applicator and nano dispenser like in PS1, only they're allowed to remain mobile and armed.

Coincidentally, you won't notice your enemies nor allies HP regening after an eternity in FPS terms, and you'll certainly be glad it comes back with no medic support nearby but also, no combat for a while. Essentially, people that intentionally wait for regen might as well be dead anyway. A medic will always be better to keep nearby.

Considering it's something that reduces teamwork and favors soloing then it's already out of place in PS2. I can see one or the other regenerating but not both. And with the shorter TTK having someone who is injured acting as backup for someone not injured is still an effective teammate

EVEN THEN. Max suits are one of those things which SHOULD be somewhat dependent on others. Otherwise they may be too powerful.

Nolerhn

2012-07-23, 05:02 PM

There is regenerating health, but it takes some time to kick in, and that timer probably resets whenever one fires their weapon or takes a hit, even to their shield.

Considering respawn times and the absolute abundance of spawn points (not counting the galaxies or squad spawning) waiting for health regen one may as well have been killed and returned to the battle. Only now they don't have a full stock of ammo (unless they're an engineer.) To look at it another way, the player could have just as easily popped out a medical applicator and nano dispenser like in PS1, only they're allowed to remain mobile and armed.

Coincidentally, you won't notice your enemies nor allies HP regening after an eternity in FPS terms, and you'll certainly be glad it comes back with no medic support nearby but also, no combat for a while. Essentially, people that intentionally wait for regen might as well be dead anyway. A medic will always be better to keep nearby.

So, has the ammo crate been changed to engineer then? If so, I'm kind of disappointed, I was rather looking forward to jumping over walls to deliver ammo to my team haha.

Littleman

2012-07-23, 05:15 PM

Considering it's something that reduces teamwork and favors soloing then it's already out of place in PS2. I can see one or the other regenerating but not both. And with the shorter TTK having someone who is injured acting as backup for someone not injured is still an effective teammate

EVEN THEN. Max suits are one of those things which SHOULD be somewhat dependent on others. Otherwise they may be too powerful.

You can take down MAX suits with an assault rifle. Well, to be fair you could before, people just refused to focus fire and opted instead to run around like pansies. Now it's just much easier.

I don't see this as game breaking. Out of sight, out of mind. I don't care what the guy's name is, I see my enemy, I shoot to kill. I don't concern myself with whether or not he took a moment to smoke a cig while the nanites in his blood stream worked on him.

*Pulls the wait for beta card.* Trust me, you simply won't realize people are sitting around regening unless they're on your team, and you'll want them to be at 100% combat operational status anyway. Medics are good to have on the team. Team oriented players will WANT them on the team. Non-team oriented players aren't likely to team up. The in field resurrections alone make them invaluable. Full hp/shields on revive from what we've seen, and the time it takes for them to pick one up off the ground is much shorter than it is for one to find a hole and wait for their hp to recover, while lacking ammo. The guy with the medic probably has an engineer in his squad too.

Ranik Ortega

2012-07-23, 05:20 PM

You can take down MAX suits with an assault rifle. Well, to be fair you could before, people just refused to focus fire and opted instead to run around like pansies. Now it's just much easier.

I don't see this as game breaking. Out of sight, out of mind. I don't care what the guy's name is, I see my enemy, I shoot to kill. I don't concern myself with whether or not he took a moment to smoke a cig while the nanites in his blood stream worked on him.

*Pulls the wait for beta card.* Trust me, you simply won't realize people are sitting around regening unless they're on your team, and you'll want them to be at 100% combat operational status anyway. Medics are good to have on the team. Team oriented players will WANT them on the team. Non-team oriented players aren't likely to team up. The in field resurrections alone make them invaluable. Full hp/shields on revive from what we've seen, and the time it takes for them to pick one up off the ground is much shorter than it is for one to find a hole and wait for their hp to recover, while lacking ammo. The guy with the medic probably has an engineer in his squad too.

If you have to rely on wait for beta as an argument then you have little argument at all. Like i said one regenerating and one not is probably the best compromise for team play. Not both. Hell i know medics can heal and revive but i'm not even sure what engineers do at the moment other than drop turrets.

Edit: The problem i'm genuinly worried about is the fact that with regenerating health/armor. It's often treated as something that works very quickly in most modern FPS. And with the influx of F2P players we may see this become a shorter and shorter duration ability due to them wanting PS2 to change and be more like whatever. I can see few modern FPS players being satisfied with 30-45 seconds of waiting and then 20 seconds of actual regenerating. If only because they played so many games where it was common and very quick.

Littleman

2012-07-23, 05:46 PM

If you have to rely on wait for beta as an argument then you have little argument at all. Like i said one regenerating and one not is probably the best compromise for team play. Not both. Hell i know medics can heal and revive but i'm not even sure what engineers do at the moment other than drop turrets.

Edit: The problem i'm genuinly worried about is the fact that with regenerating health/armor. It's often treated as something that works very quickly in most modern FPS. And with the influx of F2P players we may see this become a shorter and shorter duration ability due to them wanting PS2 to change and be more like whatever. I can see few modern FPS players being satisfied with 30-45 seconds of waiting and then 20 seconds of actual regenerating. If only because they played so many games where it was common and very quick.

"Wait for beta" is more of an argument than anything someone with no experience can say. You don't get to debunk it with mere beliefs. You're imagining worst case scenarios precisely because you're afraid of the worst case scenario and don't know any better without first hand experience.

Reference Halo: Combat Evolved and Halo: Reach for shields on top of health. I know people like to think the modern gen crowd that populates CoD and BF is full of window lickers, but I'm pretty confident the average player can figure out shields and health are separate. Health regen will be a nice surprise, and it might be a cert. Ever think of that?

Yet PS2's regen system is more like Halo 2, 3, and CoD/BF, only the first half regens quickly after a short duration, and the second half takes some time to get started.

Finally, SOE will balance it how they see fit, not to a bunch of whiners that think it should be faster, much less remove it for the other extreme that hasn't even access to the game.

Again, wait for beta. You may as well be telling people the Pulsar is underpowered right now.

Ranik Ortega

2012-07-23, 05:58 PM

"Wait for beta" is more of an argument than anything someone with no experience can say. You don't get to debunk it with mere beliefs. You're imagining worst case scenarios precisely because you're afraid of the worst case scenario and don't know any better without first hand experience.

Reference Halo: Combat Evolved and Halo: Reach for shields on top of health. I know people like to think the modern gen crowd that populates CoD and BF is full of window lickers, but I'm pretty confident the average player can figure out shields and health are separate. Health regen will be a nice surprise, and it might be a cert. Ever think of that?

Yet PS2's regen system is more like Halo 2, 3, and CoD/BF, only the first half regens quickly after a short duration, and the second half takes some time to get started.

Finally, SOE will balance it how they see fit, not to a bunch of whiners that think it should be faster, much less remove it for the other extreme that hasn't even access to the game.

Again, wait for beta. You may as well be telling people the Pulsar is underpowered right now.

If it's a cert then eventually everyone will have it. If its a trade off for say lower armor then that's another thing. Coincidentally Halo 1 had the better health system lol :rofl: And like i said one regenerating and one not still encourages teamplay better than one quick regen and the other slow regen. And since it's a F2P game it will be drawing a lot of the casual audience who have played games that feature little in the way of teamplay. The NDA breach video is a glaring example of PS2's potential audience. Unfortunately debating in game features before they hit beta is one of the key things to do before people get used to them in game. Once something has been in game nerfing/removing them is far harder to do.

Also do you genuinely think if a F2P game with a massive player base they somehow won't cater to their desired changes? You have more faith in the devs and F2P gamers than I do. And I have a considerable amount of faith in the devs at least. But this is still from the company that pulled the NGE on SWG. So there is considerable precedence for screwing games over for casuals.

soulsurfsublime

2012-07-23, 06:05 PM

Rivenshield

2012-07-23, 06:22 PM

We need to bear in mind that within a year and a half everybody will be able to do everything. (I know Higby has said otherwise. You and I both know he's wrong). The people yelling about the abuses that too high a TTK lead to in other threads need to be careful what they wish for.

Ranik Ortega

2012-07-23, 06:24 PM

SFJake

2012-07-23, 06:54 PM

Simple problem I have is free regeneration devalues both teammates and an individual's shots. Hey, I got like 50 hits on this group but no one died. They don't even have anyone to heal them but you know, its all wasted, they will regenerate.

I'm guessing medics have ammo limits so they can't heal forever. If they can thats pretty lame, but otherwise its how it should be, IMO. Wearing people down should always be an option. Being in the field or in an enemy base forever with your team, with your own resources renewing themselves forever, is exactly what regeneration sounds like to me.

And I just don't like it.

Littleman

2012-07-23, 07:15 PM

Do you really think SOE did not contemplate no health regen? Seriously?

Don't be ignorant. It doesn't encourage team play to remove health regeneration, at most it prevents someone from opting to toss a grenade at their feet to deny someone else an easy kill. Remember, people can be fairly vain.

Someone being a medic does not guarantee they'll care to heal you, they may only care to heal themselves. A medic that wants to heal you will want to heal you regardless of long term passive regen. Again, the existence of passive regen will NOT influence a medic's priorities. Giving them EXP for ressing/healing on the spot might however. That would encourage an illusion of team play, even if the former mindset is in it for their own gain.

Wait for beta like any level headed person would. I understand if this is too difficult, we all are eager to get in. People with no experience in something may voice concerns of a potential issue and their opinions on what should and shouldn't be, but they have not experienced how the game actually works to point out the actual issues. I'd be very concerned for the future of the game if SOE makes balancing changes based on the "feedback" of those that have yet to install Planetside 2 onto their hard drives. The people talking on the exclusive access tech test forums have FAR more weight to their concerns than anyone here will.

This is just another exaggerated issue from ill-informed individuals and it will remain that way until most of us are in beta and understand what is really going on.

Accuser

2012-07-23, 07:51 PM

I am thinking a cert with a trade off sounds good to me. When I play BF3 I play hardcore and love the no regen with out aid. So a cert for it sounds pretty cool to me. That way it's there but you have to lose a little somewhere else to use it. Oh and this message is biased cause I love to play medics and healers in games!

That seems likely. In the current build (Higby's last broadcast), no one regenerates health... so the OP's info is out of date. If you want to go solo and never run with a medic, you have to sacrifice an implant slot; sounds reasonable enough.

Regen for everyone is just stupid though. Nothing worse than getting a good body-shot in at long range with a sniper rifle, but having the target hide for 30 seconds and be back at full health.

Nolerhn

2012-07-23, 08:10 PM

That seems likely. In the current build (Higby's last broadcast), no one regenerates health... so the OP's info is out of date. If you want to go solo and never run with a medic, you have to sacrifice an implant slot; sounds reasonable enough.

Regen for everyone is just stupid though. Nothing worse than getting a good body-shot in at long range with a sniper rifle, but having the target hide for 30 seconds and be back at full health.

If nothing else, you took that guy out of the fight for 30 seconds while he hides :groovy:

Klockan

2012-07-23, 10:39 PM

If nothing else, you took that guy out of the fight for 30 seconds while he hides :groovy:
Kills or it doesn't matter!!

Hamma

2012-07-24, 12:07 AM

SpcFarlen

2012-07-24, 12:10 AM

Just so you guys know Health does not regen the last time I got a chance to play. Armor/Shield has a regen time (pretty long before it starts) but Health if you lose it stays where it is. So you could have 50% health and 100% shields.

If they keep that.... i like that. Sheild allows you enough time to get out of the fight to find a medic or get a medic to you. I plan on being a medic so, this is good news for me :)

Rivenshield

2012-07-24, 02:32 AM

Just so you guys know Health does not regen the last time I got a chance to play. Armor/Shield has a regen time (pretty long before it starts) but Health if you lose it stays where it is. So you could have 50% health and 100% shields.
Ah, good then. I was having a nightmarish vision of self-maintaining certified MAXEs turning the game into MaxCrashSide.

Kills or it doesn't matter!!
Oh yes it does. It makes all the difference in the world.

TheApoc

2012-07-24, 03:38 AM

from what i hear, max units are like paper.. cant wait to see for my self.

TerminatorUK

2012-07-24, 03:53 AM

Just so you guys know Health does not regen the last time I got a chance to play. Armor/Shield has a regen time (pretty long before it starts) but Health if you lose it stays where it is. So you could have 50% health and 100% shields.

Thanks Hamma - this was exactly what I was in about in my OP.

Just to clarify, I wouldn't want there to ever be any Health regen - this thread was purely for armour/shield regen.

In the recent TB video below, there's an example where a MAX takes some damage at 29:04 and hasn't regened any by 29:42.

302 Found

So 38 seconds passed without regen - can anyone confirm if the timer is longer or if it is something you need to cert/equip etc..

Sturmhardt

2012-07-24, 04:09 AM

Awesome, I like that, thanks for the info.

Littleman

2012-07-24, 04:09 AM

Keep in mind, that's a MAX unit. The entire 2 bars look to act like armor/health.

Though I'm inclined to trust in Hamma's claim, considering he has more hands on time than most of us. Just keep in mind it's still early in the testing process, and SOE will be jumping around features finding what works and what doesn't.

I just understand from my years of MMO experience that when a developer changes anything within their game, the change will see stiff opposition from people that can't think beyond their nose.

CutterJohn

2012-07-24, 04:17 AM

So long as they cost resources and have a reuse timer, the owner should have some capacity to repair themselves, even if that is just sitting out of combat for 3-4 minutes. Every other vehicle has it, since they can just be an engineer.

If maxes are free and have no timer like other infantry, then it is fine if they must 100% rely on others for repair.

Treat them like vehicles, or treat them like infantry. Not some bastardized concept between the two.

In either case they should also be able to grab repairs from the deployed sunderer.

TerminatorUK

2012-07-24, 08:42 AM

Keep in mind, that's a MAX unit. The entire 2 bars look to act like armor/health.

Hmm I don't think that's true.

The top bar is health and needs a medic to heal and the bottom bar is armour and needs an engineer to repair.

I think the top bar (health) should not regen but the bottom bar (armour) should regen very slowly / after a sufficient cool-down.

I'm pretty sure the MAX timer has now been confirmed to restrict re-usage so I can see this being quite important with the reduction of players able to fix you being about but without impeding their role but being too fast / powerful.

Littleman

2012-07-24, 04:15 PM

Hmm I don't think that's true.

The top bar is health and needs a medic to heal and the bottom bar is armour and needs an engineer to repair.

I think the top bar (health) should not regen but the bottom bar (armour) should regen very slowly / after a sufficient cool-down.

I'm pretty sure the MAX timer has now been confirmed to restrict re-usage so I can see this being quite important with the reduction of players able to fix you being about but without impeding their role but being too fast / powerful.

Except... the top bar is the first to deplete when the MAX is getting shot, and the bottom bar doesn't drop any faster when it's all that's left.