PS2 will never be Pay to Win, but...

[Noctis]

Hello Smurfs, Elmos and Purple Dinosaurs,

everything is subject to changes

Before I get to the point I'll tell you something about another game, EVE Online.

EVE Online it's a Pay to Play game which has a monthly fee. in EVE Online players can buy for real money a certain item, which used in game grants 30 days of game (PLEX). This item can also be sold in game to other players for Virtual Cash, techinally allowing everybody to play free.
But this is not the point.
This process leads rich people to buy large batch of PLEXes and sell them in-game to earn alot of Virtual Cash which is used to obtain stuff in the game markets.
Some players can afford the best items at anytime, with no limits and without suffering losses by rebuying everything back.

Back to PS2, I am not doing propaganda for another game.

In Planetside 2 you will be able to acquire Resources with Station Cash.


I don't want to say anything else, unless people don't grab my idea.


Hoping in a serious talk,
Iek.

[Crator]

In Planetside 2 you will be able to acquire Resources with Station Cash..

Pretty sure that isn't true. Were did you hear that?

[Gugabalog]

I know it was mentioned in a stream. Im not sure which resources that wall be.

[Ruffdog]

You can use Auraxium to get the three resources. You can not use money to get resources. If it was like you said, it would in a stroke cause an outcome they are trying to prevent.

[Crator]

^^^ Truth. Auraxium = In-game money obtained only in-game.

[GLaDOS]

Actually, as sad as I am about it, I'm pretty sure there will be resource collecting boosts available for Station Cash. It was shown (although breifly, when one player looked in the shop for a moment or two) in one of the E3 videos. Sorry that I'm too lazy to find it, but I have no idea where in them it is.

[Littleman]

Buying resources wouldn't exactly be buying power, it would be trading time spent acquiring them for money spent acquiring them.

There will be limits, as more than likely there will be a cap on the the amount of resources one may have at any given time, but ultimately, it comes down to $ for resources, or time for resources.

Not seeing the problem here. Freebies still get to play for free, they just won't go as far as fast as those whom do pay. What? You really think the game will survive on selling camos? Would you prefer they were temporary camos? I assure you, that will be far more detrimental to sales. Resources are acquired and then spent, creating SOE a consistent product they can sell over and over to the same people if they so chose to do so.

Smart players will know to STFU about this, because those impatient people paying for resources are also paying the bills to keep the devs at work and the servers running, but those same people aren't exactly getting a super powerful tank in the process, they can just afford MORE tanks without needing to balance their virtual income.

Get it right. Time IS money. Everything in life has these two costs associated with them.

Cosmetics are harmless, but people will whine because they want them but won't pay for them.

Then there's the touchier issue, "power" which some people confuse with "time." Paying for resources is paying to remove the period of time required to acquire them. No one's getting a rocket-firing gatling gun for their purchase.

[Fenrod]

Wait, you will be able to exchange Station Cash with resources ?


Oh dear.

[Mauser101]

Wait, you will be able to exchange Station Cash with resources ?


Oh dear.

Only thing I've seen it's resource and xp boosters, as in increasing the rate at which you earth them. Have not seen anywhere that you can outright purchase resources.

[Crator]

Buying resources wouldn't exactly be buying power, it would be trading time spent acquiring them for money spent acquiring them.

Ok, but that pretty much goes against the "No buying of power" thing that the DEVs have stated many times won't happen...

What? You really think the game will survive on selling camos? Would you prefer they were temporary camos? I assure you, that will be far more detrimental to sales. Resources are acquired and then spent, creating SOE a consistent product they can sell over and over to the same people if they so chose to do so.

Cosmetics are harmless, but people will whine because they want them but won't pay for them.

Then there's the touchier issue, "power" which some people confuse with "time." Paying for resources is paying to remove the period of time required to acquire them. No one's getting a rocket-firing gatling gun for their purchase.

They will sell XP boosters and Side-Grades. So, they aren't just selling camos.

[camycamera]

no way that they would allow people to do that. one of planetside 2's aims is to keep the game as balanced as possible. allowing people to buy resources with money would be the most stupidest idea possible, but of course, everyone needs money. however, i doubt that SOE would dare to do such a thing.

if, for example, lots of rich people in the vanu were going to buy resources, they could just end up buying an entire army of tanks via the resources that they bought using station cash, and end up dominating the battlefield. that isn't balanced, and SOE wouldn't allow something like that to happen... would they?

[Noctis]

I've heard more then once that was mentitioned something about direct buy of resoueces, but it was during a commentary, don't remember which. Of course it might not happen, it will probably not happen.
I think Hamma could tell us something or make such questions :o

--EDIT

Paying for resources is ACTUALLY being able to field MBTs and Air Cav all the day each time the vehicle delay ends, with no limits.

[NumbaOneStunna]

no way that they would allow people to do that. one of planetside 2's aims is to keep the game as balanced as possible. allowing people to buy resources with money would be the most stupidest idea possible, but of course, everyone needs money. however, i doubt that SOE would dare to do such a thing.

if, for example, lots of rich people in the vanu were going to buy resources, they could just end up buying an entire army of tanks via the resources that they bought using station cash, and end up dominating the battlefield. that isn't balanced, and SOE wouldn't allow something like that to happen... would they?

All vehicles have respawn timers.

Another words you cannot just buy all the tanks you want even if you had infinite resources.

[Crator]

The issue here really is we don't yet know what all they are going to sell in the shop. The theme that the DEVs have kept with, and what this community is most concerned about, is not selling power. If they do end up selling power then they will definitely hear it from this community. And, I also don't think any other F2P SOE game sells power like this.

EDIT: Also, E.V.E. Online is an exclusive club that members have to pay dues for, monthly. That allows for more free reign in the territory of what they can sell. PS2 is F2P so the general public is allowed. They want people to buy into the game to keep them....

I didn't know the details of the PLEX system as described here so it's interesting to see. EVE is such a grind just to get anything exciting (massive PvP centric) going that I kind of understand why the players buy in to it....

[NumbaOneStunna]

Paying for resources is ACTUALLY being able to field MBTs and Air Cav all the day each time the vehicle delay ends, with no limits.

Nothing wrong with that, if a person wants to fly planes all the time then so be it. You can also do the same without paying money, just leave your character logged in all the time so he acquires resources even when you are not playing.

EDIT: Also, Pay for Resources to buy vehicles is not even close to pay to win.

[ThermalReaper]

My biggest concern with the entire ordeal is whether or not dedicated Air Cav/Armored players would have enough resources generated by hexes or would they have to keep switching back to infantary many times to wait while the resources are sufficant.

[Noctis]

Nothing wrong with that, if a person wants to fly planes all the time then so be it. You can also do the same without paying money, just leave your character logged in all the time so he acquires resources even when you are not playing.

I doubt you would be able to afford so many vehicles for all your needs. You are going to run out of resources, while "others" will not.

Yea thats the reason why PS2 is extremely tactical in the vehicle side, because you aren't gonna to suicide your tank and come back later, you will try to stay alive and don't lose resources.
Galaxies are pretty expensive as far as we have seen, what about a Gal pilot failing his job 5 times a day? What would happen to his gameplay? He would probably stop using that kind of resource for a bit.

the key feature is not losing anything if possibile, if you burst alone in a vehicle and die, you lose resources.

[Flaropri]

Two things:

1. There's a difference between boosting resource gain and directly buying resources.

2. There's a difference between resources. For example, I'd be very against even buying boosts to Polymer/Metals/Whatever resources (the stuff used for vehicles), however, buying boosts to Auraxium would be fine (since that's what's used for weapon and mod unlocks, as I understand it).


Ultimately, there's too little information, and as mentioned at the start, all is subject to change (at least when it comes to what's on offer in the store).

[Sifer2]

That's incorrect at least for the time being. They have said in streams that in game resources used to buy power items such as grenades or a Tank are obtained only through gameplay.

You can however unlock some guns faster by using Station Cash. As well as purchase xp boosts, and many cosmetics only available for real money. Of course it will only stay this way so long as the game remains profitable that way. That's the ugly side of the F2P model.

[NumbaOneStunna]

I doubt you would be able to afford so many vehicles for all your needs. You are going to run out of resources, while "others" will not.

Those people who paid money for resources earn the right to spend them as they choose. If they want to drive Magriders 100% of the time, they can.

They are spending money to play the game how they want to play it, which is a lot different than Pay 2 Win.

[RSphil]

you get resources even if you are not in game, just at a much slower rate.

also there is no power in this game. they have stated on many occasion everything is a side grade and can be eventually got without spending a penny. from what i have seen, read and heard this will be a game of skill and tactics. the drv team hav stated on many occasion they dont like pay to win and have no intention of doing it.

on saying this though it will be interesting to see if pro7 will stick to this as wein the EU have to use their cash shop to get things.

if it stays as is i like it. i also hate pay to win even though the guys who buy the good still suck as they have no skill and normaly die when i see them lol.

we will have to wait and see as nothing is set in stone yet.

[Noctis]

Those people who paid money for resources earn the right to spend them as they choose. If they want to drive Magriders 100% of the time, they can.

They are spending money to play the game how they want to play it, which is a lot different than Play 2 Win.

We got different opinions and I respect that, I think resources are supposed to end if you waste them to much :)

[Flaropri]

Those people who paid money for resources earn the right to spend them as they choose. If they want to drive Magriders 100% of the time, they can.

They are spending money to play the game how they want to play it, which is a lot different than Play 2 Win.

Except that being in a vehicle vs. not being in a vehicle gives power to a player. Even something like being able to spam grenades all the time gives an advantage that wouldn't exist for a non-paying player.

Further more, vehicles are to be balanced (against each other) by resources, and being able to bypass resource restrictions tosses that out the window.


If vehicles were strictly side-grades to each other without considering resources, maybe (and this is quite unlikely), but you'd still have to deal with infantry vs. vehicle disparities.

[NumbaOneStunna]

We got different opinions and I respect that, I think resources are supposed to end if you waste them to much :)

I think the vehicle respawn timer is going to be the #1 deterrent to wasting vehicles.

Except that being in a vehicle vs. not being in a vehicle gives power to a player. Even something like being able to spam grenades all the time gives an advantage that wouldn't exist for a non-paying player.

Further more, vehicles are to be balanced (against each other) by resources, and being able to bypass resource restrictions tosses that out the window.


If vehicles were strictly side-grades to each other without considering resources, maybe (and this is quite unlikely), but you'd still have to deal with infantry vs. vehicle disparities.

Well when a single infantry dude with a lock-on rocket launcher can easily and completely destroy a vanguard/lightning without spending resources AND without having to worry about a respawn timer, I would say the advantage is with the infantryman not the person who had to pay resources for his vehicle.

[Noctis]

I think the vehicle respawn timer is going to be the #1 deterrent to wasting vehicles.



Well when a single infantry dude with a lock-on rocket launcher can easily and completely destroy a vanguard/lightning without spending resources AND without having to worry about a respawn timer, I would say the advantage is with the infantryman not the person who had to pay resources for his vehicle.

Well try to imagine the PS2 battlefield.

Outfit Advances with 100 Tanks
Outfit gets blown up
Outfit respawns after timer ends with other 100 Tanks

Heavy Assault runs away in fear
.
No just kidding, anyway it won't change much for noobs, but in a larger scale might be really really annoying.

[GLaDOS]

I doubt it will end up being that big of a deal, and if it is, then we can complain now. However, since we currently don't know how much the boosts boost by, or how plentiful resources will be without boosts, we can't say much.

[SixShooter]

I'm pretty sure that you can't just buy resources but I'm all for being able to buy resource and XP boosters just because my play time is going to be fairly limited durring the week and I'm sure there are many others in the same boat. Even if you have all the time in the world to play, a resource boost is not going to make someone overpowered.

[Littleman]

I guess I have to agree that we'll more likely see resource and exp boosters than outright purchasing resources, sans auraxium for unlocks (of which there will be many.) It also allows SOE to pace the income a bit more accurately, as much as they'd love to make $100 a week on someone with too much cash to blow and no skill behind a flight stick.

It's the truth: time = money. If people pay to have their resources sooner/faster, they should be able to. It's their money, and SOE is happy to have it. For all we know, exp and resource boosters may be part of a monthly sub package (many F2P's have these kinds of monthly plans) among other things, like a raised resource cap. Depending on the cap-to-price ratios of various equipment and vehicles, that could be a major or minor. It's still not buying power.

No one that pays has access to unique weapons, vehicles, or tools with attributes that can't be acquired in game otherwise, as THAT is selling power. Faster income, higher resource caps, and expedient training, still not selling power, just getting to where everyone else will eventually end up sooner rather than later... for a price.

[Arcsilver]

You can't buy resources with station cash....There are 4 in game resources - Auraxium, polymers, alloys, and catalysts. You can use auraxium to buy the other resources.

[IAMDANIEL]

ill be buying the station cash for the resorces. it helps support the game and thats really important.

[SixShooter]

I guess I have to agree that we'll more likely see resource and exp boosters than outright purchasing resources, sans auraxium for unlocks (of which there will be many.) It also allows SOE to pace the income a bit more accurately, as much as they'd love to make $100 a week on someone with too much cash to blow and no skill behind a flight stick.

It's the truth: time = money. If people pay to have their resources sooner/faster, they should be able to. It's their money, and SOE is happy to have it. For all we know, exp and resource boosters may be part of a monthly sub package (many F2P's have these kinds of monthly plans) among other things, like a raised resource cap. Depending on the cap-to-price ratios of various equipment and vehicles, that could be a major or minor. It's still not buying power.

No one that pays has access to unique weapons, vehicles, or tools with attributes that can't be acquired in game otherwise, as THAT is selling power. Faster income, higher resource caps, and expedient training, still not selling power, just getting to where everyone else will eventually end up sooner rather than later... for a price.

Well said man. The devs have stated over and over again that they will not be selling power and they game will not be pay to win and I think that they'll stand by it.

[Kran De Loy]

Also people to get some facts strait and Edit the OP.

Resources CAN NOT be bought with Station Cash.
The three sub-resources CAN be bought with the primary resource, Auraxium, at a steep hit.
iirc it was like 1n:3Auraxium or something like that.

I personally saw this on the Community Event on Friday the 13th.

Also if there is an Implant that is a resource booster that can be bought with Station Cash then it makes no difference since, as other people have already said, all players spend either Station Cash or Time to get the exact same equipment.

[Crator]

A resource boost? No problem with that as long as it has limits and doesn't get to a point that it could be consider selling power... Hard to tell though without seeing what they have in store for us, in the store... :lol:

[Zerik]

What!? People can pay for resources/resource boosters that will then let them pull more vehicles (spawn timers aside)!?

...Great! I get to shoot at other peoples' cash! *brandishes rocket launcher*

[LZachariah]

Buying resources wouldn't exactly be buying power, it would be trading time spent acquiring them for money spent acquiring them.

There will be limits, as more than likely there will be a cap on the the amount of resources one may have at any given time, but ultimately, it comes down to $ for resources, or time for resources.

Not seeing the problem here. Freebies still get to play for free, they just won't go as far as fast as those whom do pay. What? You really think the game will survive on selling camos? Would you prefer they were temporary camos? I assure you, that will be far more detrimental to sales. Resources are acquired and then spent, creating SOE a consistent product they can sell over and over to the same people if they so chose to do so.

Smart players will know to STFU about this, because those impatient people paying for resources are also paying the bills to keep the devs at work and the servers running, but those same people aren't exactly getting a super powerful tank in the process, they can just afford MORE tanks without needing to balance their virtual income.

Get it right. Time IS money. Everything in life has these two costs associated with them.

Cosmetics are harmless, but people will whine because they want them but won't pay for them.

Then there's the touchier issue, "power" which some people confuse with "time." Paying for resources is paying to remove the period of time required to acquire them. No one's getting a rocket-firing gatling gun for their purchase.

This. I am so, so glad that you see this for what it is. Thank God.


~Zachariah

[Coreldan]

I personally do not have an issue with them selling stuff that is available in game without RL money. There are people who dont have the time to play enough to earn the things they want by playing.

If Joe is 35, has wife and 3 kids and has the money to throw in 30$ a month just to be able to drive an MBT everytime he logs in (which is rare cos he is a busy man!), I dont have any problems with that.

Pay2skip grind is totally fine in my books. Anything that supports the game and keeps it up without being pay2win is more than welcome for me.

And no, I'm not Joe with no time but lots of money. I got more time than money :P

However.. Higby did promise the NC the tri-barreled velociraptor launcher, which, if you miss, will chase down the target.

[sumo]

almost all f2p devs say they wont sell power, and almost all f2p developers lie about just that. im just saying...

[camycamera]

All vehicles have respawn timers.

Another words you cannot just buy all the tanks you want even if you had infinite resources.

still, you could buy *wait* buy *wait* buy *wait* buy *wait* buy *wait* buy *wait* you get the picture.... isn't that how they did in in PS1 anyway? no, i dont mean they bought resources, i mean when they gathered armies, they waited for everyone to gather together.... i think. idk. sadly, i never played the first planetside. i wish i did. :(

[Novice bot]

Also people to get some facts strait and Edit the OP.

Resources CAN NOT be bought with Station Cash.
The three sub-resources CAN be bought with the primary resource, Auraxium, at a steep hit.
iirc it was like 1n:3Auraxium or something like that.

I personally saw this on the Community Event on Friday the 13th.

Also if there is an Implant that is a resource booster that can be bought with Station Cash then it makes no difference since, as other people have already said, all players spend either Station Cash or Time to get the exact same equipment.


This, twice.

Boosters take an implant slot figure out what that means; It drops your overall combat efficiency. You're not as effective as the guy who uses his implants primarily for more fighting power. You gain resources faster, but you aren't optimized to your maximum. So you gimp yourself to gain resources / exp faster. I see that as a fair trade of.

[Comet]

Numba, they will have system checks that will boot you if you're afk to avoid people from afking to get resources.

[Flaropri]

Well when a single infantry dude with a lock-on rocket launcher can easily and completely destroy a vanguard/lightning without spending resources AND without having to worry about a respawn timer, I would say the advantage is with the infantryman not the person who had to pay resources for his vehicle.

If that was really the situation people wouldn't bother using vehicles except as transit. It's possible for infantry (with proper equipment) to take out a tank, sure, but the advantage is still to whomever has the tank; it isn't an even match.


In any event, a lot does depend on what types of resource limits there are and income and expense.

For example (hypothetical numbers), it could be that you get 30 resources an hour from active play, 10 from passive gains, and average performance will have you spend 60 resources an hour. If your limit is something ridiculously huge (relative to those numbers) like 10000 of each resource, then sure, I wouldn't mind it so much, simply because anyone could get that much over time anyway and be able to mimic the capabilities of a player that spent money. On the other hand, if the resource cap is low, like 200, than a resource boost could create a disparity in play that could not otherwise be mimicked by a non-paying player.


You also risk creating more false choices in the game, where resource cost of a vehicle doesn't matter because of overabundance of resources; thus the entire resource meta-game gets tossed, vehicle imbalances (with cost disparity removed) become more exaggerated, etc.

[Kalbuth]

Buying resources would simply kill the metagame around starving the ennemy of Resource X hex.
There was long discussion about how to implement correctly the hex resource system, if one can buy resources (through whatever way, even a steep Auraxium<-> resource conversion rate), dev shouldn't bother with the resource per hex thing at all, this would be nullified by people buying their resource.

[Firearms]

Surely it would be a balancing issue - Something non of us has a hand in until Friday/Monday/Soon?

Balancing aside, it does sound like your worried about one guy that is richer than you so he has more tanks... What about the guy that does F*all but play PS2 all day so can afford more tanks....
As long as somebody can't pay (only) money for an ubertank* then the point is moot IMO - It just comes down to balancing.... You could charge 1000$ for an hours worth of resources...?



*and they have already said that there's only gonna be 20% difference in any one player

[Sunrock]

Well pay to win is not only equipment IMO but also exp boosts. As you level up in this game you can unlock better things for your weapons and so on and if you buy those exp boosters you will be level faster then those that don't and will enable you to "p0wn n00bs" as you are allot higher levels then those that don't pay

[Coreldan]

But it does not really meet the definition of pay2win. Pay2win really implies that you HAVE TO pay to get the same things, which isnt true if you can get the same stuff by just playing, even if it took you longer.

[Sunrock]

Numba, they will have system checks that will boot you if you're afk to avoid people from afking to get resources.

You don't think there is 101 different ways to work around that?

[Firearms]

and will enable you to "p0wn n00bs" as you are allot higher levels then those that don't pay

20% better....:rolleyes:

[Sunrock]

But it does not really meet the definition of pay2win. Pay2win really implies that you HAVE TO pay to get the same things, which isnt true if you can get the same stuff by just playing, even if it took you longer.

That is not how I see P2W. I see P2W as if you pay money you get an edge over those that don't. And I don't think I'm alone in that view. TBH I never have hard your definition of P2W.

[Coreldan]

20% better....:rolleyes:

To be honest, that 20% makes all the difference, even when they dont need it. APB had the same 20% difference for new players and maxed players and new players didnt stand a chance.

However it wasnt only about the 20% difference, but also that old players will almost always be miles better at the game than anyone just logging in. Couple that with a 20% advantage in damage and health and you can be sure the new player has no chance in an otherwise fair firefight against the veteran.

[Sunrock]

To be honest, that 20% makes all the difference, even when they dont need it. APB had the same 20% difference for new players and maxed players and new players didnt stand a chance.

However it wasnt only about the 20% difference, but also that old players will almost always be miles better at the game than anyone just logging in. Couple that with a 20% advantage in damage and health and you can be sure the new player has no chance in an otherwise fair firefight against the veteran.

Even if its just 2% its still 2% and when 0.01% can be the difference between win or lost, 2% is allot.

PS: But that is what a cash shop do really. If they just put up items that no one needed they would not earn any real money from it and a sub fee would generate more money. They need to sell items that people find useful or they are stupid. But then it makes the game P2W even though they say it don't.

As I see it you can only sell useless cosmetic things and other stuff no one have any use for on the cash shop if you don't want a P2W game.

[Coreldan]

You are still mixing up progression and pay2win with each other, they are two totally different subjects.

[BlueSkies]

They never said you could buy resources (provide a link or STFU)

They have said, and we have seen, that you can buy implants that will increase XP or resource gain.

That is all.

[Sunrock]

You are still mixing up progression and pay2win with each other, they are two totally different subjects.

Me? No I don't. I think it's you who have a way to narrow view of what p2w means. P2W is anything that gives you an advantage for real money even if its just a 0.000001% advantage.

[Coreldan]

But in that case you are also against any kind of progression based advantage cos the older players will always have the advantage. At that point it doesnt matter if you have paid for it or not, they have that 0,000000001% advantage :D

[Thunderhawk]

I think there's a storm in a tea cup brewing here, and its a lot to do about nothing.

This is all theoretical, but seeing as this whole conversation is theoretical as we don't know how this will be implemented yet, i thought it warrants some sort of suspension of belief for a while.

Take 2 players, Dollarman (VS) being the person who pays to get XP boosts and "resources" but doesn't play PS2 as much, and Hoursman (NC) being the player that spends all day playing PS2 because he has no job, is a student, is between jobs, whatever reason there is to be able to play PS2 uninterrupted all day everyday....


Hoursman logs in when he rolls out of bed at 11am and starts pounding the battlefield, earning resources, earning Capture XP, gaining BR ranks in the process.

Dollarman gets up at 6am, showers, gets dressed and goes to work, pops on his iPad and sees the battle unfolding on Auraxis, jealous in that he cannot play because he is at work like a lot of people will be doing.


At the end of the day, Hoursman is progressing faster than Dollarman at this stage.

So now, Dollarman decides to buy an XP boost of some sort (I dont know the details as no one knows the details) or even a resource boost (if that even exists)

Say, it's now 6PM, Dollarman comes home from work, logs into PS2, and meets Hoursman on the battlefield.

Ok, so, will they have same resources? - maybe due to Dollarman paying for some. Is Dollarman advantageous? - Highly doubtful.

You may come back with an argument that if Hoursman also starts buying resources, then he will have a huge advantage over Dollarman, but, will he really ?

Buying more vehicles - really isn't an advantage if a few HA can blow it up so readily with their AV weapons.

Gaining More BRs - What are you going to do with those BRs ? get better guns ? - It has been stated several times that you can't get "better" guns, just ones that do stuff in a different way, e.g.

Higher accuracy at expense of range
Bigger range at expense of recoil
Different size clip but balanced out with lower accuracy
etc...

I am not even sure the 20% advantage is being understood correctly from what Higby said, he said there might be a 20% "difference" between the two, I am not sure he said one of them will be 20% better.

Please wait for beta, test in beta, then start commenting when you have had a chance to experience everything.

[Firearms]

Couple that with a 20% advantage in damage and health and you can be sure the new player has no chance in an otherwise fair firefight against the veteran.

I def get that. But IMO that's what an MMO is. Even to a certain extent a casual game can be similar in that a vet knows where all the cool toys are before the start of the round and the noob doesn't....but that's experience.
For the APB thing, in this case you have the rest of your team to back you up, or at least for you to hide behind until you get better. As a noob you should simply not take on the big fights.

Again an MMO thing, if we consider the current system p2w and a noob is able to buy in to the 20% tier I dont think he'll have much fun against a vet that does 20% less damage...

Meh, I don't know. It hurts my head. I was happy knowing you can't rock up and buy the Bolt Driver XT100X-4 for 30$. If a guy can buy more tanks than me I'll just hope to afford more AT gear...and hopefully it won't cost me more than the monthly "Subscription" I allocate myself

[Sunrock]

But in that case you are also against any kind of progression based advantage cos the older players will always have the advantage. At that point it doesnt matter if you have paid for it or not, they have that 0,000000001% advantage :D

There will always be players that have advantage over other players. May it be they have better hand to eye coordination, more knowledge about the game or are just smarter. But that is called having skills. Skills you can train up. And skills is how you measure who is best.

However in the real world not every one earns $x=y hour. One can earn $150 per hour and work 35 hours a week and an other can earn $15 per hour and work 80 hours a week.

This enables some people to not only be able to play allot but also buy allot. So the argument that those that work for a living is more at equal foot with students that got to class 30 hours a week is really BS as that is only true some times but never always.

For the game to be fair play you can really only promote hours played toward progression as we all have 24 hours to dispose of during a day. The rest is up to the player how he want to dispose those 24 hours.

[Boomhowser]

Well pay to win is not only equipment IMO but also exp boosts. As you level up in this game you can unlock better things for your weapons and so on and if you buy those exp boosters you will be level faster then those that don't and will enable you to "p0wn n00bs" as you are allot higher levels then those that don't pay

It don't bother me none... let them buy those exp boosters let them be 10 ranks higher than me it's all good.. just takes 2 shots with ma rifle and thier chewing on dirt or perhaps i'll take it up close and personal like and strike twice with a knife its all the same..
Only difference between the two of us is he'll have more ways of killing me

[Novice bot]

But it does not really meet the definition of pay2win. Pay2win really implies that you HAVE TO pay to get the same things, which isnt true if you can get the same stuff by just playing, even if it took you longer.

Exactly. If you want to play the game without paying a dime for it, you're better to expect some minor handicap. In this case, the early on exp boosts, people level faster than you, because they are actually paying for the game. It doesn't mean you cannot win a shoot out versus one.

People need to stop thinking that there will be zero gains for those who pay something, there has to be, otherwise no one would buy anything, and that'd be a waste of SOE's resources, and we would see PS2 either shut down or made Pay-to-play within months. As long as the advantages are extremely minor, and can be capped with skill / hours played. I see no reason for them not to exist. Most of the income will come from cosmetics anyways.

[Sunrock]

It don't bother me none... let them buy those exp boosters let them be 10 ranks higher than me it's all good.. just takes 2 shots with ma rifle and thier chewing on dirt or perhaps i'll take it up close and personal like and strike twice with a knife its all the same..
Only difference between the two of us is he'll have more ways of killing me

I agree with that. As this is a pure PvP game with no PvE elements I'm not so bothered about exp boost and resource boosts because no matter how much money you dump into the game you would never ever be able to beat a really skilled player anyway.

However if this was a PvE game with some PvP elements like most MMORPGs I would have refused to play it.

But I would still say it has some hints of P2W. But personally I rather pay $15 a months as a flat fee without getting anything in game. But in return have access to every thing every one else has too. Hell I would rather pay $30 a month just to avoid having any cash shops at all in my games.

[Littleman]

I agree with that. As this is a pure PvP game with no PvE elements I'm not so bothered about exp boost and resource boosts because no matter how much money you dump into the game you would never ever be able to beat a really skilled player anyway.

However if this was a PvE game with some PvP elements like most MMORPGs I would have refused to play it.

But I would still say it has some hints of P2W. But personally I rather pay $15 a months as a flat fee without getting anything in game. But in return have access to every thing every one else has too. Hell I would rather pay $30 a month just to avoid having any cash shops at all in my games.

So if most of these boosts are actually account bound and not implants for the monthly "sub" of $15, would you pay that fee every month, or will you continue to hold your perception of the higher moral ground? You can choose to see it as paying for a boost, or unlocking the intended pacing of play.

This game NEEDS to make money to keep running, and selling something temporary that is attached to something else that is constantly in demand for every player is a very good way to generate constant sales. I only need to buy a digital TR camo once (preferably,) but my alloy supply, booster or not, can run dry without judicious use of it (or it SHOULD anyway.) With years of cert training planned, I'd like to cut that training down by 3 months per year at least.

Exp/resource boosters aren't paying for power. People simply spend money to spend less time getting from point A to point B. Regardless of players having paid or not, the newbs will be facing off against players of varying experience levels and certification access.

I'm happy with my sub games having a cash shop. I'm happy with just cash shops. They allow me to buy cool and/or useful things, the latter of which does so without requiring me to pay to play, and yet I end up paying anyway. Seriously, understand that the few whom pay out the ass are paying for the many that don't pay at all. They deserve a little something something for their contribution to keeping the servers running.

[Scotsh]

That is not how I see P2W. I see P2W as if you pay money you get an edge over those that don't. And I don't think I'm alone in that view. TBH I never have hard your definition of P2W.

Actually his view is also my view on P2W.

If paying enables you to speed up certain things (leveling, resource gathering etc.) thats fine by me, i even might use it from time to time.
This mechanism just saves you time (which is pretty limited for me) but does not make you better. If it would it would also be a G2W (Grind 2 Win) which i dont like either. This is an FPS, and i do not accept that somebody playing 10h a day will have an edge over me simply because he played more (except real skill which is of course improved with playtime) and gets ingame rewards.

The beauty of PS1 was that a BR 3 or 4 (dont remember, what could be achieved with VR) had access to all weapons and could best a BR25 simply by FPS-skill. I truely hope PS2 will be similar in that regard.

But personally I rather pay $15 a months as a flat fee without getting anything in game. But in return have access to every thing every one else has too. Hell I would rather pay $30 a month just to avoid having any cash shops at all in my games.

Simple, set yourself a budget (say the 15$) and use that to support PS2, you also get something for that (noting that will make you better tho).

[dafuq]

almost all f2p devs say they wont sell power, and almost all f2p developers lie about just that. im just saying...

this

[Scotsh]

DOTA2 does not.
Battlefield Heroes as far as i knew it (couple of years before) doesn't do it either.

[Kalbuth]

That is not how I see P2W. I see P2W as if you pay money you get an edge over those that don't. And I don't think I'm alone in that view. TBH I never have hard your definition of P2W.

Aww FFS, let's get this straight :
The game is dead if they only sell cosmetic. Period. Thinking you can have a business model over selling something which does basically nothing is fooling yourself.

So yes, some things you'll buy in game will give you an advantage, that's the whole incentive they'll put to buy items on their market. And, honestly, people should stop acting like paying for a product or service was bad ....

The definition of P2W is the one given above : it's P2W when you can buy items giving you an edge, and the only way to get these items is by paying.

The rest is crying about having to pay to play a game. Well, you'll have to pay, sorry for you.

We will be able to complain when we'll see the actual prices and if it's overall expensive or not to play this game.


What bothers me in OP, is that they spent time and developement to have some resource meta-game and tactical depth in game, and push a mecanism by which anyone can circumvent this. That's like spending time and money on a useless feature, that doesn't makes much sense to me :)
OTOH, in commercial/marketing terms, it's genius. You make your players force other players to pay you money :)

[Shade Millith]

This process leads rich people to buy large batch of PLEXes and sell them in-game to earn alot of Virtual Cash which is used to obtain stuff in the game markets.
Some players can afford the best items at anytime, with no limits and without suffering losses by rebuying everything back.

I don't think you have any idea about just how expensive it can be. Yes, you could have decent stock of standard stuff. But you're completely and utterly talking out your arse with this 'Best items' crap. Buying it with money also ends up meaning you're losing real money when you do die.

I didn't know the details of the PLEX system as described here so it's interesting to see. EVE is such a grind just to get anything exciting (massive PvP centric) going that I kind of understand why the players buy in to it....

For one PLEX (aka, one months game time) for approx $15, you can sell it for 479,004,811.03 isk. (This price is the current Jita price as of ten seconds ago.

For comparison -
Tech 1 Battlecruiser - Drake - 49,000,000 isk.
Fit would be another 40-50 million, so around 80-90 million each.

Tech 1 Battleship - Maelstrom - 197,000,000 isk
Fit would cost around 100-110 million. So probably around 307,000,000.

Tech 3 Cruiser - Tengu - 518,000,000 isk.
Probably another 40,000,000 to fit, so a good 560,000,000 for it.

Three standard ships for 0.0 fleet work. Standard Tech 2 fits. Standard Battlecruiser you'll get for a few bucks, but anything else of note is going to cost you. And once it's killed it's all gone.

'Best items' are more like -
Faction Battleship - Bhaalgorn - 1,138,000,000 isk.
A good full-faction fit would go for 810,000,000. Leading the thing to be more like 1,948,000,000 isk. And that's not delving into Deadspace mods (Which are better and far more expensive), nor Officer mods (Which are better and even more expensive than Deadspace) And despite all that isk, a gang of one Battlecruiser and two recons could kill you without trouble.

Wait, you will be able to exchange Station Cash with resources ?
Oh dear.

No. From the footage shown, you can use Auraxium to get resources. As far as I'm aware, Auraxium is only obtainable ingame. Not for cash.

[Scotsh]

Aww FFS, let's get this straight :
The game is dead if they only sell cosmetic. Period. Thinking you can have a business model over selling something which does basically nothing is fooling yourself.

Again, DOTA2 does it.

[dafuq]

Again, DOTA2 does it.

do u really compare an ESPORTS game with alot more people playing AND viewing it (tournaments) with an unpopular game like planetside ?
take off your fanboyglasses and u will know thats the truth, i dont see an hype around PS2, nowhere, except in this forum

planetside 2 will NEVER reach the playerbase dota 2 has, thats for sure. lol


oh, btw dota 2 is in beta since last year, dont forget that, and it already has 80k ppl playing on daylie base

[Scotsh]

Then take "Team Fortress 2" also F2P (longer than DOTA2)
We will also see what happens to "Tribes Ascend" (tho selling more than cosmetics, but still no P2W).

[feuerdog]

There are no POWER items which are restricted to MONETARY purchase,....because every item can be earned via time.

MONEY can buy you TIME however, but at a very shallow return,....because cash boosts will be limited in duration and amount.

If TIME equates to MONEY, and TIME earns you POWER, then yes, MONEY can buy you POWER.

The thing is that the return on investment, based on what we've seen so far, is so miniscule that it's like argueing the fact that eating bacon potentially decreases lifespan.
The exchange we are talking about here is so convoluted, and reliant to so many other factors being true, that its almost a moot concern.

Things to consider:
1. Constantly boosting will be expensive,....very.
2. To maximize boosting you'll have to play,....alot.
3. The most expensive spawn is not always the best choice.
4. Availability does not include skill.
5. NOBODY but the greenest noob up against the saltiest veteran will see the full 20% disparity in available power. This is still a game of skill, experience, coordination, and communication.

[dafuq]

There are no POWER items which are restricted to MONETARY purchase,....because every item can be earned via time.

MONEY can buy you TIME however, but at a very shallow return,....because cash boosts will be limited in duration and amount.

If TIME equates to MONEY, and TIME earns you POWER, then yes, MONEY can buy you POWER.

The thing is that the return on investment, based on what we've seen so far, is so miniscule that it's like argueing the fact that eating bacon potentially decreases lifespan.
The exchange we are talking about here is so convoluted, and reliant to so many other factors being true, that its almost a moot concern.

Things to consider:
1. Constantly boosting will be expensive,....very.
2. To maximize boosting you'll have to play,....alot.
3. The most expensive spawn is not always the best choice.
4. Availability does not include skill.
5. NOBODY but the greenest noob up against the saltiest veteran will see the full 20% disparity in available power. This is still a game of skill, experience, coordination, and communication.

well lets say the boosters are in the same price range as League of Legends boosters, thats what they say, i dont see how it will be "very expensive"

consider this: u set yourself an 10€ limit for every month to get such boosters or other stuff, still cheaper than a WoW subscription

[Noctis]

I don't think you have any idea about just how expensive it can be. Yes, you could have decent stock of standard stuff. But you're completely and utterly talking out your arse with this 'Best items' crap. Buying it with money also ends up meaning you're losing real money when you do die.



For one PLEX (aka, one months game time) for approx $15, you can sell it for 479,004,811.03 isk. (This price is the current Jita price as of ten seconds ago.

For comparison -
Tech 1 Battlecruiser - Drake - 49,000,000 isk.
Fit would be another 40-50 million, so around 80-90 million each.

Tech 1 Battleship - Maelstrom - 197,000,000 isk
Fit would cost around 100-110 million. So probably around 307,000,000.

Tech 3 Cruiser - Tengu - 518,000,000 isk.
Probably another 40,000,000 to fit, so a good 560,000,000 for it.

Three standard ships for 0.0 fleet work. Standard Tech 2 fits. Standard Battlecruiser you'll get for a few bucks, but anything else of note is going to cost you. And once it's killed it's all gone.

'Best items' are more like -
Faction Battleship - Bhaalgorn - 1,138,000,000 isk.
A good full-faction fit would go for 810,000,000. Leading the thing to be more like 1,948,000,000 isk. And that's not delving into Deadspace mods (Which are better and far more expensive), nor Officer mods (Which are better and even more expensive than Deadspace) And despite all that isk, a gang of one Battlecruiser and two recons could kill you without trouble.



No. From the footage shown, you can use Auraxium to get resources. As far as I'm aware, Auraxium is only obtainable ingame. Not for cash.


Ahah did you know that there are people spending 500$/Month for PLEXes?
Did you know that 1000-2000 USD worth PLEXes have been blown up?

http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/08/08/eve-player-destroys-over-1000-worth-of-game-time/#continued

and there are lots more and worse losses

been playing for years, you better bend over.

[Scotsh]

Eventually everyone will hit some kind of cap (be it an hard or a soft cap) at which point there is no ingame improvement and everybody is on exactly the same level as everyone else.

[Kalbuth]

Again, DOTA2 does it.

Is it free to download?
Aren't cosmetics down also by community (ie, not Valve employess)?
What infrastructure does Valve maintain to have the game running?
In fact, it's not even out yet, so excuse me if I remain more than sckeptical about this, in terms of revenues.

That an upcoming game looks like is using a pure cosmetic cash shop without much detail isn't telling me enough, tbh.

[Sunrock]

If paying enables you to speed up certain things (leveling, resource gathering etc.) thats fine by me, i even might use it from time to time.
This mechanism just saves you time (which is pretty limited for me) but does not make you better. If it would it would also be a G2W (Grind 2 Win) which i dont like either. This is an FPS, and i do not accept that somebody playing 10h a day will have an edge over me simply because he played more (except real skill which is of course improved with playtime) and gets ingame rewards.

I bet you think you should be as good as Tiger Woods in golf too if you pay $10000 for a golf set even though you never sent a day training golf.. Consider Tiger Woods have practices golf every day sens he was 4 years old.

And yes you pay to win when you pay to reduce your play time. In the same way as you would pay to win in the example above.

[Kalbuth]

Then take "Team Fortress 2" also F2P (longer than DOTA2)
We will also see what happens to "Tribes Ascend" (tho selling more than cosmetics, but still no P2W).

TF2 is by no mean a model to take as an example!
It was already a rentabilized game when it went F2P! People already had bought the original game for years, etc... and the dev cycle of the game was already payed.
The only thing Valve had to pay when it got F2P was the cosmetic designers. Ofc it's easy to have a favourable cash balance in this case!
Who's going to pay the original forgelight designers? the map makers? the testers, well, the whole SOE crew who actually made the game? Not even talking about infrastructure, there...


As for T:A, that's exactly what I have in mind when I say that "we'll have to pay". Hords of people who want everything handed to them for free are crying "P2W" about T:A. They don't sell cosmetic only there. LAR for PTH is a clear upgrade. Jug LMG X1, well, I could go on! :)

Case in point, some items sold in SOE cash shop will give people an advantage. And it's fine as a principle, that's how SOE is going to get money mostly.
the question to ask is the price, nothing more.

[Scotsh]

Is it free to download?
Yes
Aren't cosmetics down also by community (ie, not Valve employess)?
Yes, ingenious, selling stuff others did (creators get some of the share ofc) and using development power on the core game (which will get new heroes and stuff)
What infrastructure does Valve maintain to have the game running?
Dont know specifics, but at least similar to what Blizzard does with Battle.net
In fact, it's not even out yet, so excuse me if I remain more than sckeptical about this, in terms of revenues.
True, it's not out yet, currently ~70.000 players online on primetime. Invites are pretty easy to get (couple of weeks or if you can't wait 4$ via steam trade).

Valve is already in this "betaesque" phase pretty happy with the turnout. And if you are still sceptical take a look at "Team Fortress 2", F2P working like a charm.

[Kalbuth]

I bet you think you should be as good as Tiger Woods in golf too if you pay $10000 for a golf set even though you never sent a day training golf.. Consider Tiger Woods have practices golf every day sens he was 4 years old.

And yes you pay to win when you pay to reduce your play time. In the same way as you would pay to win in the example above.

You pay to gain access to an item.
What you'll do with this item is down to your skills.
Before, you would pay for all the items in a game. Without paying, no item, no win.
Now, you can get in game for free, test things, see what item you'd prefer using, pay for them, then practice your skills on it.

Stop crying about having to pay. Cry on the price once we know it.

[Noctis]

I bet you think you should be as good as Tiger Woods in golf too if you pay $10000 for a golf set even though you never sent a day training golf.. Consider Tiger Woods have practices golf every day sens he was 4 years old.

And yes you pay to win when you pay to reduce your play time. In the same way as you would pay to win in the example above.

Agreed, but SOE needs money like we do in our lives.
And we should buy something just to support them, we can only cry if something excessive goes to the shop.

^Good point

[Scotsh]

I bet you think you should be as good as Tiger Woods in golf too if you pay $10000 for a golf set even though you never sent a day training golf.. Consider Tiger Woods have practices golf every day sens he was 4 years old.

And yes you pay to win when you pay to reduce your play time. In the same way as you would pay to win in the example above.

Try reading my post again. I even explicitly state that real(!) skill acquired by a lot of playing is the way to go. Superior weaponry acquired by simple grinding is not. Therefore i welcome an option to skip grinding.

[feuerdog]

well lets say the boosters are in the same price range as League of Legends boosters, thats what they say, i dont see how it will be "very expensive"

consider this: u set yourself an 10€ limit for every month to get such boosters or other stuff, still cheaper than a WoW subscription

I'm not familiar with the LoL model, but still, consider what little we know of the PS2 model.
Let's assume that $15 a month gives you unlimited resources, of all types, allowing you to spawn anything provided the timers allow it.
Let's assume that the game rewards skilled, or conservative, or coordinated play and only limits your resource pool 10% of the time(1 in 10 spawns).

Assuming a paying player plays in the same manner as a non-paying player, the advantage of paying only gains you a 10% increase in resources.

It's not the actual dollar value, it's the return on that purchase.
At this time, since we are not even in beta yet, we can still not know how this will play out.

To me....
Spawn timing will be a bigger factor in strategy than resource requirements.
20% power difference will be only seen in extreme circumstances.
The return on investment value for resources is so miniscule in the bigger picture that it won't be worth my money, even if it is only a few dollars.

Will money technically buy power, yeah, but not much, and not enough to matter over time.

[Klockan]

TF2 is by no mean a model to take as an example!
It was already a rentabilized game when it went F2P! People already had bought the original game for years, etc... and the dev cycle of the game was already payed.
The only thing Valve had to pay when it got F2P was the cosmetic designers. Ofc it's easy to have a favourable cash balance in this case!
Who's going to pay the original forgelight designers? the map makers? the testers, well, the whole SOE crew who actually made the game? Not even talking about infrastructure, there...
Valve made so much of TF2 after they went F2P that they decided to make DOTA2 F2P as well with the only purchasable stuff was cosmetics. That should tell you something.
Hello Smurfs, Elmos and Purple Dinosaurs,

everything is subject to changes

Before I get to the point I'll tell you something about another game, EVE Online.

EVE Online it's a Pay to Play game which has a monthly fee. in EVE Online players can buy for real money a certain item, which used in game grants 30 days of game (PLEX). This item can also be sold in game to other players for Virtual Cash, techinally allowing everybody to play free.
But this is not the point.
This process leads rich people to buy large batch of PLEXes and sell them in-game to earn alot of Virtual Cash which is used to obtain stuff in the game markets.
Some players can afford the best items at anytime, with no limits and without suffering losses by rebuying everything back.

Back to PS2, I am not doing propaganda for another game.

In Planetside 2 you will be able to acquire Resources with Station Cash.


I don't want to say anything else, unless people don't grab my idea.


Hoping in a serious talk,
Iek.
The difference between EVE and most other games is that in EVE the players set their own prices. In most games like this you progress roughly 100-10000 times faster by working at minimum wage McDonalds than from actually playing the game, but in EVE you are roughly equal to the minimum wage worker once you got a good setup and you can outdo them by far if you are really skilled and can lead a corp as well.

[Noctis]

Of course we can't compare different mechanics at the same extent. Just saying what could happen if any scenario you could directly buy resources which has been randomly mentitioned in a stream, I mostly think it was a random comment in an alpha phase. Can't bother to watch all the streams for the 6th time. =_=

[Satexios]

To me pay to win is quite simple.

Lets say there is an assault rifle with greater stats and is only available for RL currency = p2w.

So am I unable to lvl with a booster? No. Am I unable to play without camo/decals whatever? No.

Simply said from what we know now it is not P2W, in my eyes that is ;)

[Scotsh]

To me pay to win is quite simple.

Lets say there is an assault rifle with greater stats and is only available for RL currency = p2w.

So am I unable to lvl with a booster? No. Am I unable to play without camo/decals whatever? No.

Simply said from what we know now it is not P2W, in my eyes that is ;)

/sign

[Sunrock]

You pay to gain access to an item.
What you'll do with this item is down to your skills.
Before, you would pay for all the items in a game. Without paying, no item, no win.
Now, you can get in game for free, test things, see what item you'd prefer using, pay for them, then practice your skills on it.

Stop crying about having to pay. Cry on the price once we know it.

Grinding is an artificial way to simulate your characters progression of training.

But no matter the reason way you want to pay for something that makes things faster or easier for you its still make the game uneven playing field.

Time spent in game is giving allot more even playing field because theoretically you too can spend 10 hours playing the game even if you maybe have to divorce your wife and earn less money. But if you want to devote your entire life to the game you can.

And I think its fair for those that devote there life playing a game should have an advantage over those that just want to pay for it without putting in the time to get it.

[Scotsh]

Grinding is an artificial way to simulate your characters progression of training.

This is a FPS game.
This is not a click-a-button-for-ability RPG.

There is no need for an artificial way to simulate progression.

Have you played PS1?

[Thunderhawk]

I am not sure what the argument here is heading for, do you not want to pay at all ?

It's already been mentioned that you cannot buy better weapons to use in game that you couldn't earn by just playing the game and getting it that way.

I think that's it, people will either agree or disagree about the validity of this method and wont be disuaded one way or the other from their opinion.

Free2Play makes new people come into the game easier, and if you like it enough and think its worth your cash to spend money into it, then you are free to do so. If you just want to play for free, and not spend any money, then you are also free (pardon the pun) to do that also.

Those that take the game seriously and want to invest a lot of time and effort into it will not mind spending cash on items/XP boosts/Decals, after all, you didnt pay for the game or pay a subscription.

I really cannot understand why people are arguing about this so much.

[Sunrock]

This is a FPS game.
This is not a click-a-button-for-ability RPG.

There is no need for an artificial way to simulate progression.

Have you played PS1?

You have levels in CoD and Battlefield games too and I have played those games. And I dont have had to play PS1 to understand how the leveling is done in this game.

I have played MUDs and MMOS for the last 20 years now so I think I have enough experience to draw my own conclusions about what the devs have sad about the leveling in PS2. I also probably played Wolfenstine 3D and Doom before most of you where born.

[Noctis]

I am not sure what the argument here is heading for, do you not want to pay at all ?

It's already been mentioned that you cannot buy better weapons to use in game that you couldn't earn by just playing the game and getting it that way.

I think that's it, people will either agree or disagree about the validity of this method and wont be disuaded one way or the other from their opinion.

Free2Play makes new people come into the game easier, and if you like it enough and think its worth your cash to spend money into it, then you are free to do so. If you just want to play for free, and not spend any money, then you are also free (pardon the pun) to do that also.

Those that take the game seriously and want to invest a lot of time and effort into it will not mind spending cash on items/XP boosts/Decals, after all, you didnt pay for the game or pay a subscription.

I really cannot understand why people are arguing about this so much.

Agree, there's no argue about weapons and other apparel, we know for sure that is not going to be Pay to Win, discussion was about resources and fielding capabilities following them.

Best thing to stay focused on the discussion would be ditching anything related to weapons or Idontwannapayanything.

[Klockan]

And I think its fair for those that devote there life playing a game should have an advantage over those that just want to pay for it without putting in the time to get it.
Why? Why should the hours played matter but not the dollars spent? Any game where you get stronger the more you play can't be a competitive game so having "fairness" in this regard isn't necessary at all. As long as it isn't ridiculous numbers such as one dollar equals a weeks spent in game it is fine. Spending dollars on a game means that you devote parts of your life on the game, getting dollars take time as well. Be happy instead that you can make up for lack of money with more playingtime, in normal games you would have to spend money just to play. Those guys buying shit is paying for your game, thank them instead.

[Scotsh]

You have levels in CoD and Battlefield games too and I have played those games. And I dont have had to play PS1 to understand how the leveling is done in this game.

Obviously you do. In PS1 a Battle Rank 1 (vets pleas don't nitpick here ;) ) was on equal grounds with a BR25. Meaning in a 1on1 situation the better FPS-player won.
I am aware of leveling in CoD and BF3. CoD4 is still one of my favorite games ever. But guess what? Virtually everyone is at max level and it doesn't mean s*** anymore. Also the amount of time needed to max level is almost negligible.
Don't get me wrong, i like leveling, as i like the reward of getting something new or unlocking stuff (i also like achievements and stuff). But it's nothing that defines the game experience for me.
Speaking of CoD4/5, it was extremely easy to "hack" yourself to max level and lots of people which i was playing against while leveling myself had done so. Never bothered me, nor will it in PS2 if i encounter a higher battle rank.

What would bother me is if i encountered someone equipped with weapons, armor or vehicles that are only available for real money.

I have played MUDs and MMOS for the last 20 years now so I think I have enough experience to draw my own conclusions. I also probably played Wolfenstine 3D and Doom before most of you where born.

Put away your ePeen, Wolfenstein unfortunately didn't run on my C64.

[opticalshadow]

the problem with cod levels, is the weapons you got were not all just dandy together. some weaposn out right out performed any other weapon you paired it with. some items outright out performed others.

in ps you dont unlock guns or items, you just unlock the ability to choose from a wider scope of items at one time.

and saying that you played 4 unreleated games makes you on expert in one, is like saying that because i can dial a phone, eat a sandwich, tie my shoes and brush my teeth, i should also be an expert on rocket science.

[Sunrock]

Best thing to stay focused on the discussion would be ditching anything related to weapons or Idontwannapayanything.

What about every one should pay the same amount every month?

[dafuq]

What about every one should pay the same amount every month?

BUT NOOO THATS WHAT KILLED PLANETSIDE 1





oh wait

[Scotsh]

What about every one should pay the same amount every month?

Then this game will most likely share the fate of PS1.

[Kalbuth]

What about every one should pay the same amount every month?

Enjoy empty servers

[Crator]

What about every one should pay the same amount every month?

Look, Sunrock, SOE is using F2P. They are doing it with all their games. Get used to it cause most other companies are probably going in that direction too.... Stop working against the systems that are going to be used by the companies and start thinking about how they can be used effectively to prevent some of the concerns you are spouting.....

[Sunrock]

the problem with cod levels, is the weapons you got were not all just dandy together. some weaposn out right out performed any other weapon you paired it with. some items outright out performed others.

in ps you dont unlock guns or items, you just unlock the ability to choose from a wider scope of items at one time.

and saying that you played 4 unreleated games makes you on expert in one, is like saying that because i can dial a phone, eat a sandwich, tie my shoes and brush my teeth, i should also be an expert on rocket science.

Well if I remember right one dev explains on youtube that you can unlock a thing to make your weapon shoot longer

If you watch here... at 4:35'ish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goNh81Duz90&list=UUeDczpHL6Mm-XrfT0ldALjg&index=5&feature=plcp

And if your weapon can shoot a little faster or little longer because of those unlocks it will make you kill players a little bit easier.

[Klockan]

Well if I remember right one dev explains on youtube that you can unlock a thing to make your weapon shoot longer

If you watch here... at 4:35'ish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goNh81Duz90&list=UUeDczpHL6Mm-XrfT0ldALjg&index=5&feature=plcp

And if your weapon can shoot a little faster or little longer because of those unlocks it will make you kill players a little bit easier.
That is unlocked though certs though and you can't buy certs.

[Sunrock]

Look, Sunrock, SOE is using F2P. They are doing it with all their games. Get used to it cause most other companies are probably going in that direction too.... Stop working against the systems that are going to be used by the companies and start thinking about how they can be used effectively to prevent some of the concerns you are spouting.....

Just because every one else likes it does not mean I have to. I like the sub fee model allot more then the F2P model. And I will argue it for the rest of my life despite what you like. Because its allot better then any other model.

PS: Well maybe an alternative way is to pay $200 up front and then don't have any MT's at all can work too

[Klockan]

Just because every one else likes it does not mean I have to. I like the sub fee model allot more then the F2P model. And I will argue it for the rest of my life despite what you like. Because its allot better then any other model.
For you that is, for the company it is not since they earn more by having it F2P. For everyone who don't want to pay for their game or are skeptical and just wants to see what it is etc, it is not since then they wouldn't be able to play. For people who have tons of money and limited time it is not since then they wont be able to stay competitive.

[Firearms]

Because its allot better then any other model.

You should have said that in the first place. I started to take you seriously for a second :rofl:

[Sunrock]

For people who have tons of money and limited time it is not since then they wont be able to stay competitive.

If you have tons of money you can buy your self time to play if you really want to.

You should have said that in the first place. I started to take you seriously for a second :rofl:

I am serious. If every one pay $15 it promotes more fair play then having a cash shop....

And I don't think companies earn more money from cash shops then sub fees anyway, not in the long run anyway. I red some where that an average F2P player spend 30-50 dollar on the game. That equals about 3-4 months of subscription. So if the company can get players to play there game for more then 3-4 months they earn more money on it. 2-3 months if it as $20 a month.

[Noctis]

Many players pump 200 € / month on P2W models.
This isn't P2W, but many people will buy everything thus making F2P better then P2P.

[Sunrock]

Many players pump 200 € / month on P2W models.
This isn't P2W, but many people will buy everything thus making F2P better then P2P.

Yes there are those players. But for every player that spend €200 a month there are 100 players that don't so it still just an average of 30-50 per player as long as they play the game.

[Noctis]

Yes there are those players. But for every player that spend €200 a month there are 100 players that don't so it still just an average of 30-50 per player as long as they play the game.

On pay to win games there are alot of "those players", I'm sure there will be less on PS2, F2P is fine to me.

[Revanmug]

If you have tons of money you can buy your self time to play if you really want to.



I am serious. If every one pay $15 it promotes more fair play then having a cash shop....

And I don't think companies earn more money from cash shops then sub fees anyway, not in the long run anyway. I red some where that an average F2P player spend 30-50 dollar on the game. That equals about 3-4 months of subscription. So if the company can get players to play there game for more then 3-4 months they earn more money on it. 2-3 months if it as $20 a month.

*look at SWTOR*
*walk away*

[dafuq]

*look at SWTOR*
*walk away*

they released hyped shit

same will happen to PS2 when its shit, same will happen to every other game when its shit


hype shit
release shit
=
players will not play it after the free month

ok since its F2P they dont rely on subs, but when its shit its shit and no one plays it

[opticalshadow]

they released hyped shit

same will happen to PS2 when its shit, same will happen to every other game when its shit


hype shit
release shit
=
players will not play it after the free month

ok since its F2P they dont rely on subs, but when its shit its shit and no one plays it

to be fair peopel didnt stop playing TOR because they thought it was shit.

it was an MMO you could beat, after you finished your last quest there was nearly no content. thats why people left.

people play shitty games all the time, people pay alot of money to do it too.

[dafuq]

to be fair peopel didnt stop playing TOR because they thought it was shit.

it was an MMO you could beat, after you finished your last quest there was nearly no content. thats why people left.

people play shitty games all the time, people pay alot of money to do it too.

we cleared the raid instance within 7 days after the early access phase started..

then nothing was to do anymore and we went back to WoW

[Crator]

Just because every one else likes it does not mean I have to. I like the sub fee model allot more then the F2P model. And I will argue it for the rest of my life despite what you like. Because its allot better then any other model.

PS: Well maybe an alternative way is to pay $200 up front and then don't have any MT's at all can work too

It's not about what the player likes or I like. It's about what is best for the companies to make a better profit...

[Arkio]

Hmm, I don't recall seeing anywhere that people would be able to actually buy in-game resources for real cash. That would pretty much be buying power, the devs have stated many times that they don't want people spawning vehicles every two seconds they want the resources you spend to mean something.

It has been said many times that they want to take the League of Legends route when it comes to what is available on the store. That means, boosts to the rate at which you gain resources and certifications, as well as purely cosmetic stuff. I've seen that on streams and interviews and that seems to be what they are sticking with. You can't assume that this kind of store won't generate any income. I say, it will work because it does work. People are vain, they want others to recognize them. That's why people buy skins in League of Legends and its why people will look for rare loot in other MMO's. As for the argument that started about leveling systems, it has been stated over and over again that when you use your certs to change something about your weapons or cloak or anything, it's a trade off system, sure your rounds travel farther, but maybe you have dramatically increased recoil, or they do less damage. The whole idea of certs is that you're able to specialize, you're going to take points in one thing, but while you are using that, you're going to be worse at something else. I don't see a problem with what has been presented by SOE, to me it looks like a well balanced system where just because you're a higher level you're not at an advantage when compared to a new player. F2P isn't bad unless its Pay to win, the devs are staying way clear of any kind of p2w non-sense and I haven't seen anything that is cause for concern.

[SpottyGekko]

I strongly doubt that PS2 is intended to make back all the money spent in creating it, because a large part of the development cost would be attributable to the building of the ForgeLight engine. So the pressure on PS2 to make huge profits may be considerably less than if the engine was built ONLY for this game.

PS2 may well be the "loss leader" for ForgeLight, and could act as a proof of concept for the new engine. If it performs well, it will be excellent PR for any other SOE games built on the same engine.

ForgeLight is going to be the power behind all SOE's upcoming MMO efforts, so its development cost can be spread over several games. The engine certainly looks impressive so far, and SOE has full control over it, so they can continue refining and improving.

[dafuq]

i really like how the most ppl think ps2 will not be based around making profit :D


EVERY decision they make is based around the F2P profit model