Air Wing Formations

[Gugabalog]

Though it's possible that it will be impossible to maintain any sort of formation due to lag I was thinking about this.

In WW2 bomber formations were maintained for both navigation and optimal turret gunner coverage. As both the Galaxy and Liberator have secondary gunners for AA defense I was wondering what people had to say about what could be a formation for optimal coverage. (It may be too early to tell due to beta not being up and all.)

Another potential issue lies with customizability and certifications. This would affect a crafts maximum speed and acceleration and make it hard to maintain formation, but this issue could be rectified with standard loadouts for air wing (read: Outfit) operations.

This is a rather management intensive tactic but I was wondering what people had to say.

[Tsunami]

Flying V, Staggered V, and the more info given, the more you educate the populace, the less likely your gimicky strat will work.

[Solidblock]

I like all these topics you are starting off Guga, I appreciate it. I think the best formations would be a flying V or perhaps a horizontal line formations, not for bombers, but for gunships. I don't think we will need lots of different formations I doubt it'll change results. Simplicity will probably the best in air formations in PS2.

[Volken]

Where's the PS1 glue when we need it.

[Gugabalog]

I like all these topics you are starting off Guga, I appreciate it. I think the best formations would be a flying V or perhaps a horizontal line formations, not for bombers, but for gunships. I don't think we will need lots of different formations I doubt it'll change results. Simplicity will probably the best in air formations in PS2.

Thanks! :D

[Reizod]

Well, air formations may play a small role in PS2. The reason why I think this, it's much different than real world implementation. PS2 aircraft pilots will have to deal with AV weapons/soldiers as well, as turrets and other aircraft.

Also, formations was used and developed for aircraft for defensives purposes that really won't apply to PS2 sci-fi aircraft. Without doing into a very long and tedious explanation of this, I'll just say... a Scythe pilot will have very little trouble trying to get any other aircraft off his six. In the real world, there is no other aircraft like it. So the starts change.

Now, where I DO see formations playing a role in PS2 is for covering/scanning sectors while on approach or patrolling an area, to quickly ID a bogey (unidentified), so your squad knows sooner rather than later if it is a bandit (confirmed hostile) or a bird (friendly) and take the appropriate action.

Oh, and as Solidblock said... good topic though Guga. :thumbsup:

[Serjikal]

B17s/B52's used a "box" formation for mutual support:

http://www.303rdbg.com/formation.jpg

could be applied in the same perspective to PS2. Have your elements of 4 stacked high vertically and then down horizontally granting more spread out depth/width.

If you go straight horizontal to a target you're relying on your belly/top gunners to take all the demand from bottom/top respectively. By stacking/sliding the formation out, you're giving the side/door gunners a chance to help cover top/bottom.

[Gugabalog]

Well, air formations may play a small role in PS2. The reason why I think this, it's much different than real world implementation. PS2 aircraft pilots will have to deal with AV weapons/soldiers as well, as turrets and other aircraft.

Also, formations was used and developed for aircraft for defensives purposes that really won't apply to PS2 sci-fi aircraft. Without doing into a very long and tedious explanation of this, I'll just say... a Scythe pilot will have very little trouble trying to get any other aircraft off his six. In the real world, there is no other aircraft like it. So the starts change.

Now, where I DO see formations playing a role in PS2 is for covering/scanning sectors while on approach or patrolling an area, to quickly ID a bogey (unidentified), so your squad knows sooner rather than later if it is a bandit (confirmed hostile) or a bird (friendly) and take the appropriate action.

Oh, and as Solidblock said... good topic though Guga. :thumbsup:

Formations obviously wouldn't apply to interceptors, just craft with turrets.

B17s/B52's used a "box" formation for mutual support:

http://www.303rdbg.com/formation.jpg

could be applied in the same perspective to PS2. Have your elements of 4 stacked high vertically and then down horizontally granting more spread out depth/width.

If you go straight horizontal to a target you're relying on your belly/top gunners to take all the demand from bottom/top respectively. By stacking/sliding the formation out, you're giving the side/door gunners a chance to help cover top/bottom.

That is a good idea. I wonder if it could apply to galaxies? (Due to different turret placement and all)

[SixShooter]

Good stuff.:thumbsup:

It would be really cool seeing Libs flying in formations like these and laying waste to everything in it path with the tailgunners working together to stave off enemy air. It would take a lot of good coordination probably with tail gunners in a separate VOIP channel from the pilots and belly gunners.

[Gugabalog]

Thoug hthis is just a rough idea atm. What if there were a v wing of libs to clear out an LZ with a few galaxies in the middle of the v and up above or below the libs?

[Tuoweit]

Way back when I was in an Air Cav outfit in PS1 we basically had two formations for Reavers: The "blob", which was very vulnerable to flak but maximised DPS on target as everyone's rocket spam could basically hit the target at roughly the same time, and the "line", a single file attack line that minimized flak exposure (and lock-on AA for that matter) but took longer to make a kill because the rocket spam was delivered serially one Reaver after the other.

I know Reavers aren't multi-seat aircraft, but I thought it might be of interest anyways :)

[MrMorton]

Though it's possible that it will be impossible to maintain any sort of formation due to lag I was thinking about this.

In WW2 bomber formations were maintained for both navigation and optimal turret gunner coverage. As both the Galaxy and Liberator have secondary gunners for AA defense I was wondering what people had to say about what could be a formation for optimal coverage. (It may be too early to tell due to beta not being up and all.)

Another potential issue lies with customizability and certifications. This would affect a crafts maximum speed and acceleration and make it hard to maintain formation, but this issue could be rectified with standard loadouts for air wing (read: Outfit) operations.

This is a rather management intensive tactic but I was wondering what people had to say.

the use of formations for mass gal/lib forces will probably have some sort of basic formation built around the idea of one leading ship that the others follow, so a basic triangle would naturally form.

However, the aircraft I see most benefiting from a tight formation in the mossie (even though I am vs, I have a crush on the mossie). If you are using your speed to do wide sweeping runby's as a squadron, it will be most efficient to utilize a formation that allows you to focus fire targets down quickly.

The basic formation that I can think of is a ^ shape with the altitude of the aircraft decreasing as they get farther back in the formation.

This would allow every single aircraft to shoot at the same target, air or ground, without risk of collision, as well as see at all times what the lead is doing as to mimic him/her.

The Reaver should be able to utilize this, but will probably need to break off in a battle against mossies, as they cannot escape the mossies after hitting. However against scythes it will probably be best to maintain formation to avoid a turning fight with the scythes and have a better chance of focus firing down the scythe before it can evade the formation's flight path.

The scythe is would be best utilized as a solo dogfighter, using the awesome maneuverability to avoid fire and land strafing shots on aircraft running by (as well as DESTROYING any aircraft foolish enough to get in a turning fight).

At least, that is what I expect/hope to be the case.

[RSphil]

should be easy to do. i flew in a few formations while playing Aces High 2. that was on titanic tuesdays aswell with 800 people on the server. just takes time to organize. spec as we had fuel to consider and poss even getting jumped by the enemy while setting up. we had bombers set in formation then i was always in the fighter escort roll. loved it. looks impressive when you see fighter break off from another escort to attack incoming.

i dont see why we couldnt do in planetside. would be easier aswell due to the aircraft being able to hover, you could form up in hover then all get under way at the correct time

[Flaropri]

This actually made me think of another important question:

Consistent speed. Many games, such as Burnout for example, just go with "Accelerate, break, boost (and hard break)" with the only way to control your overall speed to be to press and release those buttons, making consistent speed below max difficult to have. So far, it LOOKS like PS2 is the same in this for all vehicles (except flyers also have vertical acceleration in addition to forward). Since fighters have a higher max speed than Libs or Gals, will there be any easy way to have a consistent speed to stay in formation with those vehicles for a mixed wing or to more easily stay near by as escort?

Anyone with experience at E3 or otherwise not NDA-play able to comment?

[Sledgecrushr]

I love the idea of formation flying and the increase in combat efficiency will show on the battlefield. Tactics involving formed up flights of aircraft I think will be almost overpowered. This will certainly persuade people to join well organized outfits because the lone wolves will have a difficult time staying alive.

This actually made me think of another important question:

Consistent speed. Many games, such as Burnout for example, just go with "Accelerate, break, boost (and hard break)" with the only way to control your overall speed to be to press and release those buttons, making consistent speed below max difficult to have. So far, it LOOKS like PS2 is the same in this for all vehicles (except flyers also have vertical acceleration in addition to forward). Since fighters have a higher max speed than Libs or Gals, will there be any easy way to have a consistent speed to stay in formation with those vehicles for a mixed wing or to more easily stay near by as escort?

Anyone with experience at E3 or otherwise not NDA-play able to comment?

Thrustmaster HOTAS flight stick has infinite speed conltrol. Flying in formation will almost require this kind of ultimate speed control.

[kazaboo]

imo they should add some kind of "cruise control" or let us adjust the speed using the mouse wheel or something else along those lines for every vehicle.

[Pepsi]

Do Galaxy's and Lib's (still) have a huge blindspot directly above them?

[Bruttal]

I think there are ways to do full wing support based on runs youve done before so there would be some AI involved for all wingmen

[Gugabalog]

Do Galaxy's and Lib's (still) have a huge blindspot directly above them?

That's where the interceptor umbrella comes into play.

[Flaropri]

Thrustmaster HOTAS flight stick has infinite speed conltrol. Flying in formation will almost require this kind of ultimate speed control.

My flight stick from 10 years ago has throttle dials, I know the hardware is out there, my concern is whether or not the software supports the use of those parts of the flight stick or if the controls are still simplified even with that hardware. I also would like to think that they could implement it for keyboard/mouse for those that want to use that control setup (for whatever reason).

[Xianith]

Had like 3 galaxies in the middle of a swarm of mosquitoes today. It was epic. Till the galaxies collided with each other :X

[Serjikal]

Had like 3 galaxies in the middle of a swarm of mosquitoes today. It was epic. Till the galaxies collided with each other :X

3 wasn't watching 2, and 2 wasn't watching 1... sad day with midairs.

Being a pilot right now having flown form, there is an increased amount of attention that wingman have to put out to follow lead while also maintaining spacing/scanning their areas. I'd be interested to see if formations can work, but highly doubt it haha.

My biggest concern comes with wondering about the shear amount of damage lib's can do. If you have one lib drop a bomb on a group of infantry will the infantry die instantly or just lose a ton of health, where maybe a 2nd bomb would kill them? What i'm getting at is that if it takes X number of bombs to kill a tank, and you're doing a fly over with aircraft, you have to have the aircraft drop those rounds precisely to get a desired effect. If you're carpet bombing and you're not killing someone within the first 2-3 rounds, you've already flown past it and it can still possibly shoot back with all its friends.

[Galron]

Anyone confirm energy maneuverability theory applies in Ps2? Ive been keeping an eye out on these types of threads but so far have seen nothing specific.

[SixShooter]

Thoug hthis is just a rough idea atm. What if there were a v wing of libs to clear out an LZ with a few galaxies in the middle of the v and up above or below the libs?

That would be pretty cool with the Libs clearing out the LZ for the Gals to come in behind and drop in a platoon of troops.

[derito]

We can't really know yet but I doubt we will see many battles escalate to the point at which a full wing would be required since the fights should be more spread out.

[Tvayda]

Formations obviously wouldn't apply to interceptors, just craft with turrets.


False.

You can have formation with the fighters as well. Fighter formations are not large bulky things like the ones you would find WWII bombers in but small compact pairings or even small groups of fighters meant to engage enemy aircraft to deny them air superiority. They provide defensive and offensive support to each other and those of the ground (as well as other larger aircraft that they may be escorting if thats what their mission is).

The objective of a fighter/interceptor formation is not to stay in formation it is to engage a group or even lone enemy aircraft.

Example: 2 aircraft are flying together for mutual support. They encounter an enemy aircraft, they work together to get on its 6 to blow it out of the sky.

Example 2: Same 2 aircraft encounter 2 enemy aircraft flying relatively close together but not necessarily coordinated . By having a formation, the first 2 aircraft should have the advantage because as an enemy goes after aircraft A, his wingman can get behind enemy #1 and down him, then A and B team up against enemy number 2.

Not perfect examples, I know, but as a military pilot I can assure you that formations do exist for fighter aircraft and now-a-days are used much more than bomber formations. Just sayin.

[Looopy]

they could have certs that give combat benefits for being within a certain vicinity of friendly aircrafts (or a lead aircraft) Perhaps the lead aircraft would be an important transport galaxy or something.

Kinda a wild idea but perhaps a lead aircraft could have an ability whereby all nearby friendly vehicles can match his speed.

[Gugabalog]

False.

You can have formation with the fighters as well. Fighter formations are not large bulky things like the ones you would find WWII bombers in but small compact pairings or even small groups of fighters meant to engage enemy aircraft to deny them air superiority. They provide defensive and offensive support to each other and those of the ground (as well as other larger aircraft that they may be escorting if thats what their mission is).

The objective of a fighter/interceptor formation is not to stay in formation it is to engage a group or even lone enemy aircraft.

Example: 2 aircraft are flying together for mutual support. They encounter an enemy aircraft, they work together to get on its 6 to blow it out of the sky.

Example 2: Same 2 aircraft encounter 2 enemy aircraft flying relatively close together but not necessarily coordinated . By having a formation, the first 2 aircraft should have the advantage because as an enemy goes after aircraft A, his wingman can get behind enemy #1 and down him, then A and B team up against enemy number 2.

Not perfect examples, I know, but as a military pilot I can assure you that formations do exist for fighter aircraft and now-a-days are used much more than bomber formations. Just sayin.

I was talking about geometric formations silly :p

[Sledgecrushr]

I havent actually seen any official confirmation of energy being used in flying. Also I guess Higby has used a full flight sim setup while flying in PS2. He said he prefers to use mouse and keyboard.

they could have certs that give combat benefits for being within a certain vicinity of friendly aircrafts (or a lead aircraft) Perhaps the lead aircraft would be an important transport galaxy or something.

Kinda a wild idea but perhaps a lead aircraft could have an ability whereby all nearby friendly vehicles can match his speed.

Every aircraft will have the ability to match speeds. It just depends if you bother using the voip to tell your wingman how fast you are going.

[kadrin]

I see formations not being as valuable as in real life.

For fighters you have the standard finger four, which can split into wing pairs once combat starts. This is basically the pinnacle of fighter tactics, you can keep adding pairs to the formation, but combat comes down to the wing pair. Not to say that only 2 aircraft will ever coordinate, but only 2 will probably ever coordinate closely, as the more aircraft are added into the mix (friend and foe), the harder it is to keep track of whats going on, and often results in situational awareness overload for most people, and that usually ends with getting shot down by someone you didn't see.

For the Liberator and Galaxy, I think formations will be useless and big number blobs will be the name of the game. The way the Liberator and Galaxy are designed formations won't give the same overlapping fire you'd get from your standard WW2 bomber. Since the 2 main benefits of formations are accuracy of bombing (not really a concern when you Liberator is firing guns and not dropping bombs) and protection from fighters (no overlapping fields of fire to help here), that leaves only its drawback which is nice big easy target, especially for flak. So blobbing large numbers and hoping you're not the one targeted as you play follow the leader into battle will probably rule supreme here.

[Marinealver]

might have worked for the old liberator formations as they could only carpet bomb so having 3 in a V formation would spread out enough to cover an entire CY. However didn't like the face Air combat was mostly WW2 style in a SciFi shooter.

but with the new liberators more like having a giant belly mounted howletzer you wont have formationslike in WW2. More like an orbit around an enemy base or formation untill the plane runs out of ammo, noe more enemies, or chased/shot down by enmy fighters/AA

[Mox]

might have worked for the old liberator formations as they could only carpet bomb so having 3 in a V formation would spread out enough to cover an entire CY. However didn't like the face Air combat was mostly WW2 style in a SciFi shooter.

but with the new liberators more like having a giant belly mounted howletzer you wont have formationslike in WW2. More like an orbit around an enemy base or formation untill the plane runs out of ammo, noe more enemies, or chased/shot down by enmy fighters/AA

If ps1 style bombing will be back in ps2 old school lib formation will be usefull.

[ccrumley]

Even without the type of physics being implemented into the game which would allow for energy management, fighter formations are still going to be a sound tactic. As was said earlier, fighter formations are primarily a defensive device. The finger four formation was used because it allowed every pilot to check the 6's of his fellow pilots. There is a blind spot behind and below every aircraft so having the finger four formation allows them to check each other's blind spots. I still see an advantage to using this formation in PS2. The difference is that from what ive seen the view only rotates about 90 degrees from the center, meaning there will be a MUCH bigger blind spot. So the formation will probably have to be spread out quite a bit more to be effective. Another advantage of the finger four is the ability to split into pairs. Since missiles will be a big part of the dogfights, having a spread out finger four will allow a wingman to cover his lead aircraft. The enemy will still have to achieve a low deflection firing solution (eg. on his 6 oclock) for his missiles to have a reasonable chance to hit. So having a wingman that is just far enough behind to be able to achieve a solution on the enemy that is trying to get on his lead's 6 should work pretty well.

[Gugabalog]

Can someone illustrate the finger four? or should I just wiki it?

[Canaris]

You'll be able to fly in formations, up to the point where enemy aircraft or AA batteries hit you and it disolves into chaos. No formation will survive it's first enemy contact intact.

[derito]

Can someone illustrate the finger four? or should I just wiki it?

This video and its second part will explain it (and some other interesting things).
WWII fighter tactics 101

[Timithos]

If ps1 style bombing will be back in ps2 old school lib formation will be usefull.

It's not. The bomber is a fully rotational turret along with the tail gunner.

[Ghostwing]

It's not. The bomber is a fully rotational turret along with the tail gunner.

That's the only option for the Lib they have working atm. In the AGN/Higby interview, higby mentions they plan to have customization options to mount either the cannon we've seen so far, a rocket pod, or the old style drop bombs. They're still working to get the mechanics/physics right for the last 2.

[Momember]

I love this thread I don't have anything to add just wanted to get that off my chest.
I want players wanting to use real life tactics regardless of PS being a sci-fi shooter I sure hope the devs supports people wanting this style of game play and make it viable.

I hadn't given much thought into certing as a pilot as I have my heart set on combat engie but this thread might be enough to persuade me because of the quality of posts.

[NoDachi]

This is impractical and pure fantasy.

[Gugabalog]

I love the idea of a rocektpod turret.

I just remembered something from a Kardaschev Civilization Level Classification System discussion where faster fleets control to location and time of engagement giving them strategic initiative where as more agile fleets controlled the tactical initiative. While this is only loosely related to aerial combat and tactics/strategy it makes me wonder how successful Mosquito and Scythe Pilots will interact. Also the P-51 reminds me of the Reaver due to the pilots armored seat.

I wonder if Liberator/Galaxy formations will be able to nullify hit and run tactics by Mossies by flying at the Sky Ceiling and havign a "Bowl" of interceptor coverage below.

[derito]

I don't know if the speed advantage will give much of a strategic advantage since aircraft spawn points seem quite common and the distances are pretty small.

[Gugabalog]

Good point.

Then again by controlling the place and time of engagement between two interceptor wings you may be able to draw it over friendly lines allowing for friendly AA to assist or for shot friendlies to reengage sooner than reengaged enemies.

[Sledgecrushr]

I am praying to the flight gods that the devs put in an amazing flying experience.

[Serotriptomine]

In regards to a defensive formation for Galaxies with an escort, I would suggest placing a minimum of 4 escort per 2 galaxies.

One in front.
Two below.
One behind.

On approach at worst your forward escort will take the lock-ons from enemies. When you get to this angle from your target / you can take the bottom two escort and push them out <-> and up ^ to your sides as you deploy your galaxy on the ground.

If your forward escort was taken down prior, you can move one bottom escort to take its place and move the remaining bottom escort to whichever side of the galaxies is taking the most flak / small arms fire.

o = o (side)
..oo

...o
o = o (top when landing)
...o

...o
...= o (When subbing for forward protection and right side)
...o

...o
o = (When subbing for forward protection and left side)
...o

You get the gist of it. You can always increase the numbers of whichever flank you want if you know you're going to be circling around a superstructure on your left, add o o o o with your two galaxies, or gunships behind your horizontal line of escorts and keep repositioning based on which one you lose.

Also if an aircrafts straffing speed can match a galaxies forward speed you can always face them towards targets without leaving formation, being offensive while still soaking locks and small arms.

[Gugabalog]

In regards to a defensive formation for Galaxies with an escort, I would suggest placing a minimum of 4 escort per 2 galaxies.

One in front.
Two below.
One behind.

On approach at worst your forward escort will take the lock-ons from enemies. When you get to this angle from your target / you can take the bottom two escort and push them out <-> and up ^ to your sides as you deploy your galaxy on the ground.

If your forward escort was taken down prior, you can move one bottom escort to take its place and move the remaining bottom escort to whichever side of the galaxies is taking the most flak / small arms fire.

o = o (side)
..oo

...o
o = o (top when landing)
...o

...o
...= o (When subbing for forward protection and right side)
...o

...o
o = (When subbing for forward protection and left side)
...o

You get the gist of it. You can always increase the numbers of whichever flank you want if you know you're going to be circling around a superstructure on your left, add o o o o with your two galaxies, or gunships behind your horizontal line of escorts and keep repositioning based on which one you lose.

Also if an aircrafts straffing speed can match a galaxies forward speed you can always face them towards targets without leaving formation, being offensive while still soaking locks and small arms.

Interesting concept.