Thoughts on the Vanu Scythe

[Fatgun]

The footage that I have seen and the info that is available to read about the Scythe leads me to believe that it will have tremendous advantages in air to air engagements. I have a lot of gaming experience being a pilot possibly going into thousands of hours and the one advantage that stands way above others is maneuverability.
For example in Battlefield 3 the US F18 Hornet will always win handily in a 1v1 dogfight versus a RU S35 Flanker when equally skilled pilots are involved. However the F18 only has about a 3-5% advantage in turning radius.
In PS2 the Scythe has a massive turn radius advantage. Possibly as high as 50% or even more. Couple that with the instantaneous acceleration when afterburners are used and it seems that the Scythe is simply on another level.

Maybe the developers intend Vanu to have dominant air, the NC have the dominant ground, and the TR have a balanced army.

[Rancherman]

Its also the weakest, armor speaking. The Mosquito has a forward speed advantage, while the NC equivalent has much more armor. I had heard that the Scythe was a bit OP in the alpha and is being nerfed soon though.

[LegioX]

well it is a UFO.

[Rivenshield]

Speed is life. The Terran Republic will rule the skies... if it stops foot zerging long enough. :D

[Gugabalog]

TR control vertical engagements while VS control turning fights. Not sure about the NC.

[Piper]

Isn't it intended to pay for its grace in the air by being some what ephemeral if any kind of weaponry gets near it?

I appreciate what you're saying, that in a 1v1 dogfight it might well do rather well all other things being equal (Beta will tell those involved about that I guess and any NDA breakers :p). But sometimes one might well prefer to have a larger weapon choice or a lot more armor?

[Noctis]

NC will simply not move while dropping warheads on your troops.

[Rancherman]

I'm looking forward to playing the Mosquito and my current plan would be to attack on the approach and not engage in a tight-turn dogfight. If it takes more then one pass then boost past him and out-speed and turn around instead of trying to out-maneuver it. Gotta play to your strengths, if he's far in front of out, his maneuverability isn't worth much.

[Noctis]

I'm looking forward to playing the Mosquito and my current plan would be to attack on the approach and not engage in a tight-turn dogfight. If it takes more then one pass then boost past him and out-speed and turn around instead of trying to out-maneuver it. Gotta play to your strengths, if he's far in front of out, his maneuverability isn't worth much.

If you don't overwhelm the Scythe in a single attack he'll simply turn and shoot you while you boost away, which might and might not burn your back. Gotta check AA systems first and guns mounted.
Our reaver would simply stand still at safe range and shot down any spinning UFO.

[Fatgun]

I'm looking forward to playing the Mosquito and my current plan would be to attack on the approach and not engage in a tight-turn dogfight. If it takes more then one pass then boost past him and out-speed and turn around instead of trying to out-maneuver it. Gotta play to your strengths, if he's far in front of out, his maneuverability isn't worth much.

That could be a viable strategy however risky. Going straight, even though you would have a speed advantage, is possibly the worst thing you can do vs a good pilot. Since when you are going straight you are a very easy target.

To counter your strategy in a scythe I would make very sharp evasive moves as you attack. If you try to pull off with afterburners I would get behind you and follow, losing ground. Afterburners run out very quickly and you probably would still be in firing range. That would leave you no other choice but to attempt to make evasive maneuvers where the scythe has such an advantage that you would probably not survive for another afterburner sprint.

[thegreekboy]

From my perspective, the Scythe will win in tight turning dogfights, the Mosquito has the biggest advantage in hit and run tactics, and the Reaver, being heavily armored, slow, and not very maneuverable, i best for air to ground attacks, while in this department the mosquito is balanced and the scythe is weak.

[Blackwolf]

The footage that I have seen and the info that is available to read about the Scythe leads me to believe that it will have tremendous advantages in air to air engagements. I have a lot of gaming experience being a pilot possibly going into thousands of hours and the one advantage that stands way above others is maneuverability.
For example in Battlefield 3 the US F18 Hornet will always win handily in a 1v1 dogfight versus a RU S35 Flanker when equally skilled pilots are involved. However the F18 only has about a 3-5% advantage in turning radius.
In PS2 the Scythe has a massive turn radius advantage. Possibly as high as 50% or even more. Couple that with the instantaneous acceleration when afterburners are used and it seems that the Scythe is simply on another level.

Maybe the developers intend Vanu to have dominant air, the NC have the dominant ground, and the TR have a balanced army.

I've suspected for a long time that the Scythe would be the dominant air-to-air fighter. It would also dominate the ground as long as it keeps it's maneuverability advantage.

The advantage isn't something that can be balanced out with weaker weaponry. Armor might compensate for this but the Scythe would have to be almost a one hit wonder to compensate for it's insane maneuverability. So yeah, chances are it's due for a nerf. Or the other two aircraft are due for a buff. Personally I'd rather the Mosquito and Reaver get buffs to help compensate.

The Scythe will probably be my primary focus in the beta because I am very interested in air combat in PS2. Sniping will take up a secondary while LA a third because infantry has always been more fun then vehicles for me.

As it stands, I'd want the Mosquito's maneuverability to be uped a bit and the Reaver to get heavier armor. Mosquito's speed will help compensate for it's disadvantage in maneuverability against a Scythe, and the Reaver's armor might give it the needed edge against the Scythe.

Though these buffs would make the Reaver the Scythe's favorite food as far as air-to-air is concerned.

If you don't overwhelm the Scythe in a single attack he'll simply turn and shoot you while you boost away, which might and might not burn your back. Gotta check AA systems first and guns mounted.
Our reaver would simply stand still at safe range and shot down any spinning UFO.

The Scythe is faster then the Reaver, and maneuverability makes approach easy. You'd stand about the same chance as a Mosquito would trying to AB away after initial encounters.

The Scythe won't be as tough in air-to-ground assaults though. Ground based AA doesn't have the same target tracking issues as air-to-air does which makes maneuverability a bit less use full. Scythe would be too busy maneuvering to engage the ground threat and would have to use Mosquito tactics in order to take it out (attack on the approach and AB the eff out).

[Noctis]

The only thing you could attempt to do with your red-black bug, is charging at top speed from max distance at slighter higher altitude not pointing directly while unleashing a full payload then afterburning straight past him.
Just don't charge directly or almost directly, but at the flank, then correct your flight and travel past the target.

Speed needs large spaces of manouver.

[LegioX]

The only thing you could attempt to do with your red-black bug, is charging at top speed from max distance at slighter higher altitude not pointing directly while unleashing a full payload then afterburning straight past him.
Just don't charge directly or almost directly, but at the flank, then correct your flight and travel past the target.

Speed needs large spaces of manouver.

To bad you cannot gain/lose energy while diving or climbing right now. Maybe it will be fixed, but for now, when you dive, you cannot gain speed.

[adddemon]

its really maneuverable and i imagine its going to wreck any lone wolf pilots that try and fight it. but its going to die pretty much instantly to things it cant see, like flak maxes, at least thats my guess.

[Noctis]

To bad you cannot gain/lose energy while diving or climbing right now. Maybe it will be fixed, but for now, when you dive, you cannot gain speed.

NDA?

Anyway we only talk about 1vs1 which won't happen often.

[Otleaz]

NDA?

Anyway we only talk about 1vs1 which won't happen often.

There are several videos demonstrating air vehicles.

[Noctis]

Yea but that was old stuff.
If the Scythe has NO gravity effects, others might have some.

[AzureWatcher]

Scythe is going to make a sexy Galaxy/Liberator escort. This is going to be pretty much guaranteed.

[thegreekboy]

Again, this is how it works

Scythe= Good at pitched dogfights, bad at attacking ground

Mosquito= Good at hit and run tactics in the air, balanced at dogfights

Reaver= Bad at Air to air combat in general, best at ground attack

---

The Scythe is generally the best at all air to air combat. The Mossie can beat the Scythe by hitting and running, and the Reaver can only beat the Scythe with an ambush of some sort. Versus ground targets, however the Scythe's weak armor makes is hard to do much damage against targets near any type of AA, while the Mossie's speed and improved armor makes it balanced against ground targets near AA, as long as it, again, uses hit and run tactics. The Reaver , with it's insane armor and low speed can fly in slow and decimate the targets below.

[opticalshadow]

also dont forget when balenceing, its not all about equal grounds.

the scythe isnt going to be balenced around the other two aircraft, its going to be balenced around teh game in general.

i imagine it will stay superior in pitched dog fights, i also imagine, this is mitigated by teh fact you rarely have just an air fight, any sort of aa become a problem for it.

likewise on the other side, teh reaver might be the bane of ground armor, but its going to have alot of problems with the air.

everything works out, but ive seen alot of people talk about balence, and they only concider the three aircraft, you have to concider all aspects.

[SuperMorto]

Speed is life. The Terran Republic will rule the skies... if it stops foot zerging long enough. :D

Erm................... like PS1, thats a no.

[opticalshadow]

Erm................... like PS1, thats a no.

well, the mossie does and has for a long time pretty much owned every other vehicle or unit in the game, so its not entirely wrong.

[SuperMorto]

well, the mossie does and has for a long time pretty much owned every other vehicle or unit in the game, so its not entirely wrong.

Yea in PS1, this will be your reckoning.

[NoDachi]

The footage that I have seen and the info that is available to read about the Scythe leads me to believe that it will have tremendous advantages in air to air engagements. I have a lot of gaming experience being a pilot possibly going into thousands of hours and the one advantage that stands way above others is maneuverability.
For example in Battlefield 3 the US F18 Hornet will always win handily in a 1v1 dogfight versus a RU S35 Flanker when equally skilled pilots are involved. However the F18 only has about a 3-5% advantage in turning radius.
In PS2 the Scythe has a massive turn radius advantage. Possibly as high as 50% or even more. Couple that with the instantaneous acceleration when afterburners are used and it seems that the Scythe is simply on another level.

Maybe the developers intend Vanu to have dominant air, the NC have the dominant ground, and the TR have a balanced army.

All your thousands of hours don't mean much when you're opinion is completely unfounded.

It's a shame I can't break the NDA yet.

[Blackwolf]

Scythe is going to make a sexy Galaxy/Liberator escort. This is going to be pretty much guaranteed.

How so? I can't imagine that the ability to dodge shots will make for a good escort. I think Reavers would be better on the defensive since they are more likely to stick close to their slower moving charges.

Scythe's would do much better on the offensive against such targets IMO. Actually a Scythe on the defensive would be bad news since offense typically lands the first shot.

[AzureWatcher]

How so? I can't imagine that the ability to dodge shots will make for a good escort. I think Reavers would be better on the defensive since they are more likely to stick close to their slower moving charges.

Scythe's would do much better on the offensive against such targets IMO. Actually a Scythe on the defensive would be bad news since offense typically lands the first shot.

It can scout for incoming targets, turn and face towards incoming targets, and can stay within a safe proximity of its charge. All at the same time.

I figure this would be much more difficult to do in a more conventional aircraft.

Note: I worded this post poorly, but I am too sleepy to care.

[Blackwolf]

You've got good points. I'd still say Reaver has the best advantage though, it can take the hit and respond better then the other two, in theory of course.

[Comet]

Certs = shore up your weaknesses.

They said every air craft will be able to perform their roles equally as well as one another.

[Reizod]

Yea in PS1, this will be your reckoning.

Yeah brotha! :cheers:

BTW: It's going to be all about the certs and sidegrades.

I like a lot of the ideas and tactics posted here, however it all comes down to what pilots are skilled enough to focus and execute. I'm very much looking forward to some good AirCav action.

I'll even take pride in the pilots that learn flight paths/routes that get their squads to the target untouched. There is still skill involved in being a great... not good, but great transport pilot.

One of the many things on my list is, over time, to instill fear into the NC and TR pilots whenever they hear the sound of incoming Scythes.

[Comet]

It's on like Donkey Kong Reizod!

[Gugabalog]

Yeah brotha! :cheers:

BTW: It's going to be all about the certs and sidegrades.

I like a lot of the ideas and tactics posted here, however it all comes down to what pilots are skilled enough to focus and execute. I'm very much looking forward to some good AirCav action.

I'll even take pride in the pilots that learn flight paths/routes that get their squads to the target untouched. There is still skill involved in being a great... not good, but great transport pilot.

One of the many things on my list is, over time, to instill fear into the NC and TR pilots whenever they hear the sound of incoming Scythes.

I want any pilot who see's my pitch black scythe to know who it is and know what seeing it means.

EDIT: Hopefully camos aren't super expensive.

[opticalshadow]

Certs = shore up your weaknesses.

They said every air craft will be able to perform their roles equally as well as one another.

the thing is though, the current look of things, each aircraft has a diffrent role.

[AzureWatcher]

I'll still be willing to try out an Air-to-Ground Scythe.

Come in from directly above, drop your payload, make a flat 180 degree turn and go right back up.

Rinse and repeat.

Catching some flak? I'll do a barrel roll like every ace pilot.

[Gugabalog]

I wonder how effective serpentine style evasive maneuvers will be in evading flak.

[Baneblade]

I'm tempted to master the Reaver on the side just to prove it can gold its own in dogfighting.

[AzureWatcher]

I'm tempted to master the Reaver on the side just to prove it can gold its own in dogfighting.

We will do it for SCIENCE!

[Blackwolf]

We will do it for SCIENCE!

We do what we must, because, we can...

[opticalshadow]

I'm tempted to master the Reaver on the side just to prove it can gold its own in dogfighting.

im sure in the hands of the right guy it can, just because the other two might be better at one thing doesnt mean they are so much so that its impossible. i think the reaver will do fine, i think the weakness' of the three crafts will be shadowed heavily by the pilots skill.

[Blackwolf]

im sure in the hands of the right guy it can, just because the other two might be better at one thing doesnt mean they are so much so that its impossible. i think the reaver will do fine, i think the weakness' of the three crafts will be shadowed heavily by the pilots skill.

Actually I believe the strengths and weaknesses are suppose to amount to a 10% difference or so from a set standard. Seeing Scythes turn on a dime tells me that they are probably very much due for a nerfin compared to the other aircraft's more U shaped turns.

[MCYRook]

I'm fairly certain that in an isolated 1v1, the general pecking order will be

Scythe > Mossie > Reaver

You can slide the stats around a bit, but the Scythe will always retain superior maneuverability, and if a pilot makes use of that, maneuverability > all. If you're in a Reaver and a Scythe is right in your back, you'll barely be able to get him into your sights again, and it won't matter whether you have 50% or 300% more armor than him - you're going down.

Things may be VERY different as soon as more players come into the scenario. 2v2, two Reavers could cover each other's backs while tanking the damage they take. And when ground AA gets involved, a nimble air superiority UFO needs to GTFO much sooner than its heavier counterpart.

IMO, the aircraft will be where you'll feel the biggest difference in gameplay between the empires. Sidegrades notwithstanding, they'll play very much unlike each other, and will favor very different scenarios.

[Novice bot]

Vanu? Aircrafts? That just reminds me of:

Hello, boys! I'm back! - YouTube

[Kitsune]

The scythe is weird and hard to balance. If you ever try making a vehicle or character that relies on maneuverability over armor, then you are putting a huge load of pressure on the player's skill, and there will be buttclenching seeming as which every anti-vehicle rocket locks-on to chase the target at very high speeds.

The thing is, I hear it has low armor and "meh" damage, leading me to believe it's only good for swarming. Normally when something sacrifices armor, they have higher damage and speed outputs, not just speed.

I could go on a small tangent about effort put into one vehicle could be worthless in equal effort if put into another, but that's another topic for another day.

[Marinealver]

Its also the weakest, armor speaking. The Mosquito has a forward speed advantage, while the NC equivalent has much more armor. I had heard that the Scythe was a bit OP in the alpha and is being nerfed soon though.

OP, I saw nothing but people crashing that. I call it the SuiScyth.(as in Suicide)

I'm tempted to master the Reaver on the side just to prove it can gold its own in dogfighting.

I hate to say it but in a wasp I have been pwned many times by reavers and even libs.

The TTK for wasp is so long and its low armor means once it takes any damage you are in a loosing battle.

Now it can outrun any striken aircraft, for most inexperienced players who imediatly run away from my wasp that makes a kill as I can overtake them with afterburners and missle spam them untill they get low to finish off with a machinegun burst. However the tru aces turn aroudn and fight me. Unless I can get them down half bar health before I take a hit, I'll be bailing.

[ParisTeta]

Let turn around and talk about concerns with the Scyth`s weakness:
1. I`m slow, how fast is a Reaver/Mossi out of my guns range?
2. How fast are they out of my missle tracking range?
3. With the speed difference about 40/60 units, are my A2A missle fast enough to get to the enemy?
4. Can i compensate my speed with AB? Is it possible to realiable gun/shoot missles?
5. How big is the speed difference FULL AB? What is it`s duration?
6. Am i fast enough to outrun Ground A2A? (alternativly, is my agility enough to evade missles?)
7. Am i fast enough to intercept Gals and Libs, faster ground vehicle?

There are also alot of concerns and just "i`m agile, so i`m overpowered" is plain wrong.
Many games have some sort of energy managment, we don`t know for ps2 but you have to consider it too and the agile fighter is usually not the winner.

8. How does all that play out in a bigger battle 2vs2 5vs5 etc.

Please don`t post around Scyth is so overpowered without game data (which you can`t because of NDA) or show good example on a (legal) video

[Fenrys]

P-51 Mustang (TR) v. Ilyushin Il-2 (NC) v. A6M Zero (VS)

Escort/Interceptor v. Ground Attack v. Dog Fighter

(medium armor + medium maneuverability + high speed) v. (high armor + low maneuverability + medium speed) v. (low armor + high maneuverability + low speed)

Each empire's fighter excels in a certain role.

Bad NC and TR pilots will get torn to pieces by a Scythe. Good NC and TR pilots will boom and zoom, ambushing the Scythe to cause some damage and then using superior speed to get away and then do it again.

[Blackwolf]

P-51 Mustang (TR) v. Ilyushin Il-2 (NC) v. A6M Zero (VS)

Escort/Interceptor v. Ground Attack v. Dog Fighter

(medium armor + medium maneuverability + high speed) v. (high armor + low maneuverability + medium speed) v. (low armor + high maneuverability + low speed)

Each empire's fighter excels in a certain role.

Bad NC and TR pilots will get torn to pieces by a Scythe. Good NC and TR pilots will boom and zoom, ambushing the Scythe to cause some damage and then using superior speed to get away and then do it again.

Funny how your prediction doesn't take into account the Scythe pilot's skill level. And that your values are grossly unbalanced and most likely inaccurate.

[Gugabalog]

The Reaver is the slowest not the Scythe.

[ParisTeta]

On the Vids, Scythe flew 180, Mossie 240 and Reaver was often changing between 220-240 (maybe certs?). If you have new info material, please share.

[XPquant]

The Dyson still strikes me as the most underwhelming fighter, at least it's pretty.

[GoldDragon]

P-51 Mustang (TR) v. Ilyushin Il-2 (NC) v. A6M Zero (VS)

Escort/Interceptor v. Ground Attack v. Dog Fighter

(medium armor + medium maneuverability + high speed) v. (high armor + low maneuverability + medium speed) v. (low armor + high maneuverability + low speed)

Each empire's fighter excels in a certain role.

Bad NC and TR pilots will get torn to pieces by a Scythe. Good NC and TR pilots will boom and zoom, ambushing the Scythe to cause some damage and then using superior speed to get away and then do it again.

I can almost agree with that, but the Reaver is going to be slower than the scythe, no? That's the idea with the NC gear. Slow, Heavy Armor, Hard hitting. I highly doubt any of that is going to help when I am out maneuvered by all enemy aircraft by default.

[IHateMMOs]

TR control vertical engagements while VS control turning fights. Not sure about the NC.

We just stay longer in fights. It's a bit fuzzy to me, but the NC are different when it comes to vehicles. The TR and VS concentrate on movements, while NC just ha armor.

[Gugabalog]

On the Vids, Scythe flew 180, Mossie 240 and Reaver was often changing between 220-240 (maybe certs?). If you have new info material, please share.

Could that have to do with the constant turning or pilot preference for a strange-handling vehicle?

I'm pretty sure at some point it was mentioned the reaver will be the slowest.

[maddoggg]

I am an expirienced pilot myself and i can tell you that in a 1v1 scenario mobility and turn rate is pretty much all that matters.
You can have 3x times more armor than your oponent,but if you are just 8% slower he would have the advantage.
Ofcourse that's a 1v1 scenario.
A 1v1 scenario would be the unlikely scenario in ps2.
In ps2 we are going to have possibly a hundred jets engaging in air combat.
Things like first voleys and flying in formation are really going to matter i believe.

[Gugabalog]

Yum...rocket volleys...

[Duskguy]

from what i've heard andwhat has been said here, i believe the scythe will have the turning advantage and up/down/side to side speed advantage over the other factions at the cost of armor and top speed. meaning if being chased, assuming they dont get killed, they can easily get behind their attacker through maneuvering.

TR will have speed, i am assuming this means superior acceleration and braking as well as higher top speeds overall. meaning hit and run strafe attacks will be the likely primary attack style. which suits me perfectly since thats how i play BF3 jets, hit hard and fast, get out of missile range and come back for more.

the NC as far as i know will have better armor and more damaging guns? and be faster than the scythe but slower than the mosquito. not sure if the ground vehicle limitatins of more damag, longerreloads applies to their fighter or not

[Boomhowser]

I had heard that the Scythe was a bit OP in the alpha and is being nerfed soon though.

Nothing gets nerfed in Beta!! that only happens on release.. until then you might notice certain aspects being balanced!!

[Salad Snake]

Nothing gets nerfed in Beta!! that only happens on release.. until then you might notice certain aspects being balanced!!

Has SOE said this? In the closed beta I was in we had four rounds of balance changes which we tried out and discussed on-forum. Afaik it's common practice to make large balance changes in beta that you couldn't get away with after release.