Can grenades be 'cooked'?

[Buggy]

Something that I was wondering about grenades, is if they can be 'cooked' or not. 'Cooking' a grenade means that you don't throw it yet, but the timer on it still counts down, which if you were to keep holding it would result in it exploding in your hand and killing you. However, cooking grenades is very usefull, a uncooked grenade takes several seconds to explode and is only really usefull against a group of people in the middle of action where they won't notice a grenade land at their feet untill its too late, but once you can control the time to detonation, grenades suddenly have a hundred and one uses.

A adept player could take out a few players that have trapped him outside of a room, or take out a group of players around a corner, skilled players could even use it to severely damage or destroy MAXs, small vehicles or even air vehicles! The possibilities are endless! In my opinion, the ability to cook grenades or the lack therefor will be the primary deciding factor in how useful they are.

[haticK]

I haven't even seen any grenades in gameplay so I'm not sure how much information there would even be about this.

[Noctis]

Something that I was wondering about grenades, is if they can be 'cooked' or not. 'Cooking' a grenade means that you don't throw it yet, but the timer on it still counts down, which if you were to keep holding it would result in it exploding in your hand and killing you. However, cooking grenades is very usefull, a uncooked grenade takes several seconds to explode and is only really usefull against a group of people in the middle of action where they won't notice a grenade land at their feet untill its too late, but once you can control the time to detonation, grenades suddenly have a hundred and one uses.

A adept player could take out a few players that have trapped him outside of a room, or take out a group of players around a corner, skilled players could even use it to severely damage or destroy MAXs, small vehicles or even air vehicles! The possibilities are endless! In my opinion, the ability to cook grenades or the lack therefor will be the primary deciding factor in how useful they are.

Nades can be thrown either on-impact or "cooked" as you said.

[Buggy]

Nades can be thrown either on-impact or "cooked" as you said.

What do you mean by on-impact? As in they detonate on impact?

[Flaropri]

What do you mean by on-impact? As in they detonate on impact?

Yes.

[Phisionary]

I'd be incredibly surprised if this feature wasn't included. Now, a variable timer, that might be interesting. I doubt it will be though.

While it would be a problem if 'cooking' wasn't included, I'm more concerned with throwing physics in general. I've been playing blacklight retribution, and it just pisses me off. The guy throws like such a sissy, and so slow that half the time I try to wing one around a corner (which you should be able to do, without great difficulty) that it bounces off and blows up in my face. And there's so much semi-transparent crap in that game that it's always bouncing off stuff, at any attempt at a fancy throw.

Things that should be possible:
Toss a reasonable distance for a .5 - 1 kg object, say 50m, and up to 3rd story level.
Throw around a corner without exposing oneself much. Some games allow you to do a run-strafe maneuver that makes it easy to do this.
Change the throw distance somehow. Being able to dial it in may be excessive, but some games change your throw based on how you're moving, and let you develop some finesse with throwing style. I like to be able to do a good run-jump toss and give my nade extra distance, for starters.

I also hope they build some nade-friendly practice areas where you can test it out without wasting resources. Its frustrating when throwing physics make throwing more difficulty then it has to be, I hope PS2 has it well polished.

[Salad Snake]

So two grenade types? Timed & impact?

[aleksandrgrc]

it would be cool to have a couple options like fire modes with grenades. so its one grenade with options and i hope to gawd that you can cook in your hand. even if they have impact hand grenades. also a big fan of the thumper.

[sumo]

Things that should be possible:
Toss a reasonable distance for a .5 - 1 kg object, say 50m, and up to 3rd story level.
polished.
rediculous. you try throwing .5-1 kg 50 meters and tell me how you do:)
in the danish army the distance to throw is 25 meters with a standard sized danish handgrenade (and we have the biggest and most powerful handgrenades in europe).

[Hobitt]

Absolutely love cooking nades and throwing them at the last second inside buildings

[Sturmhardt]

I hope it is in since BF3 doesnt have it. One of many casualisations of FPS nowadays... I didnt like it because grenades were only good to get someone out of their cover, not kill them right away.

[Otleaz]

Cooked grenades make sense, but it is bad game design. It really rears its head with objective based games like PS2 will be.

If you know where your enemy will be, a cooked grenade is a guaranteed instantaneous kill. Response and counter gameplay is healthy gameplay. Being killed without a chance to fight back should be rare.

[VSENSES]

rediculous. you try throwing .5-1 kg 50 meters and tell me how you do:)
in the danish army the distance to throw is 25 meters with a standard sized danish handgrenade (and we have the biggest and most powerful handgrenades in europe).

But they have nanites in their blood, they are stronger than our danish cousins to the south. :groovy:


But I sure hope there is a cooking feature and that grenades work closely as they do in BF3, since I'm super used to them and quite excellent with them :))

[MCYRook]

I hope it is in since BF3 doesnt have it. One of many casualisations of FPS nowadays... I didnt like it because grenades were only good to get someone out of their cover, not kill them right away.
As it should be in a game IMO.

Being killed without a chance to fight back should be rare.
This.

Little birds have whispered me that grenades are pretty damn powerful in PS2. I don't think they need an efficiency boost.

[Neurotoxin]

At E3 and PS2 Community Day, Grenades were bound to a single key. They cannot be equipped as a weapon, and as a result they can't be defined as contact vs timer. I don't recall being able to burn them, if I recall correctly it just switches to the grenade and throws, and then goes back to the primary weapon (which is a likely known / possibly fixed bug, and it should go back to the last equipped weapon) after the throw.

I believe it is all work in progress. It'll be the way we want it to be before launch, so don't worry about it now. :)

[MrKWalmsley]

I hope it is in since BF3 doesnt have it. One of many casualisations of FPS nowadays... I didnt like it because grenades were only good to get someone out of their cover, not kill them right away.

Grenades are designed to flush enemies out of cover, whether that be by killing them or making them abandon said cover. In this respect the grenade does exactly what it is supposed to do. And in cramped buildings there's guaranteed to be plenty of casualties from a grenade when the panic ensues.

[Piper]

Could easily see Light Assaults "Blind" 'nade becoming the new Plasma. :confused:

[Death2All]

Hopefully not. Grenades should be severely limited with what you can do with them. Getting killed with grenades is not fun in games.


The grenades appeared to be one hit kills in the E3 footage, which is just ridiculous. Hopefully they've been toned down by now or will become toned down during the beta.

[IMMentat]

Cooked grenades make sense, but it is bad game design. It really rears its head with objective based games like PS2 will be.

If you know where your enemy will be, a cooked grenade is a guaranteed instantaneous kill. Response and counter gameplay is healthy gameplay. Being killed without a chance to fight back should be rare.

This.

Cooking turns something deadly but avoidable into a face/back full of instakill.
Not a fun thing for those on the other end.

Timed and on-impact detonations should be fine. On impact means you could miss or the other person could dodge keeping a level of fairness to the system and it would prevent corner "trick-shots" where you bounce a grenade then it explodes the moment it gets closer to the area the target is in.

BTW
Few RL soldiers risk cooking grenades due to fuses not being as perfectly reliable as a game grenade is.

[Sturmhardt]

This.

Cooking turns something deadly but avoidable into a face/back full of instakill.
Not a fun thing for those on the other end.

Timed and on-impact detonations should be fine. On impact means you could miss or the other person could dodge keeping a level of fairness to the system and it would prevent corner "trick-shots" where you bounce a grenade then it explodes the moment it gets closer to the area the target is in.


It doesnt make a difference if it is cooked or detonating on impact. Its a kill if I hit the target.

[Mirror]

no they cant

[Gugabalog]

This.

Cooking turns something deadly but avoidable into a face/back full of instakill.
Not a fun thing for those on the other end.

Timed and on-impact detonations should be fine. On impact means you could miss or the other person could dodge keeping a level of fairness to the system and it would prevent corner "trick-shots" where you bounce a grenade then it explodes the moment it gets closer to the area the target is in.

BTW
Few RL soldiers risk cooking grenades due to fuses not being as perfectly reliable as a game grenade is.


Good point.

[evansra]

im on the fence about this, while its a cool feature i think it will overall be detrimental to gameplay... as said above grenades are annoying at the best of times...and the worst well mag comes to mind :P

[vVRedOctoberVv]

Cooked grenades make sense, but it is bad game design. It really rears its head with objective based games like PS2 will be.

If you know where your enemy will be, a cooked grenade is a guaranteed instantaneous kill. Response and counter gameplay is healthy gameplay. Being killed without a chance to fight back should be rare.

Gee... I'm just going to have to disagree. Yeah, you can get killed by a grenade, as it should be. And yes, grenades should have a timer, like they have since the first World War... It's all fine and dandy to want good gameplay, but it's purely subjective what's "good gameplay". Saying that this "counter" gameplay you endorse is good gameplay, is fine, but I consider it to be lame gameplay. We're in a game based on futuristic warfare technology, but we don't have decent grenades that have already existed for a hundred years?

It doesn't have to be a simulator, but trying to force everybody out into these open gun battles is just retarded. Yeah, everybody can shoot at each other, no hidden kills. It's also stupid, and I'm glad they're not going that route exclusively. People haven't fought like that since musket and bayonet times. Most technology revolves around finding ways to kill WITHOUT exposing yourself. Pretending it's otherwise is just silly.

-edit

Also your concern is easily alleviated by people not stupidly standing in clumps around objectives, corners, or other areas easily grenaded. People cause 90% of their own "grief".

[Otleaz]

Gee... I'm just going to have to disagree. Yeah, you can get killed by a grenade, as it should be. And yes, grenades should have a timer, like they have since the first World War... It's all fine and dandy to want good gameplay, but it's purely subjective what's "good gameplay". Saying that this "counter" gameplay you endorse is good gameplay, is fine, but I consider it to be lame gameplay. We're in a game based on futuristic warfare technology, but we don't have decent grenades that have already existed for a hundred years?

It doesn't have to be a simulator, but trying to force everybody out into these open gun battles is just retarded. Yeah, everybody can shoot at each other, no hidden kills. It's also stupid, and I'm glad they're not going that route exclusively. People haven't fought like that since musket and bayonet times. Most technology revolves around finding ways to kill WITHOUT exposing yourself. Pretending it's otherwise is just silly.

-edit

Also your concern is easily alleviated by people not stupidly standing in clumps around objectives, corners, or other areas easily grenaded. People cause 90% of their own "grief".
I don't think you understand what you are talking about, or you misread this thread.

Cooking off is a term referring to intentionally holding onto an armed grenade after the pin has been pulled and the handle released; allowing the fuse to burn partially to decrease the time to detonation after throwing. This technique is used to reduce the ability of the enemy to take cover or throw the grenade back. It is also used to allow the grenade to burst in the air over defensive positions.[27] This technique is inherently dangerous, since fuses may vary from grenade to grenade. Because of this the U.S. Marines (MCWP 3-35) describe cooking-off as the "least preferred technique," recommending a "hard throw, skip/bounce technique" to prevent an enemy returning a grenade.

[Kipper]

I understand it.

A debate between whether you should be able to hold a grenade longer before throwing to give targets less of a chance to react and move away from it.

The pro's are saying that it's realistic to be able to do this, and allows you to be a little bit more precise if you're skilful. Also more options like causing it to burst in mid air, etc.

The con's are saying that it means people won't have chance to react and will die often to people who are good with grenades, without a chance to counter.

On balance - I'm with the pro's. There is a counter to a cooked grenade - don't make yourself a target - don't stand still in a place you can get hit.

I do hope you can have a bit of control over how hard you throw them, and that they aren't too bouncy. I've never thrown a grenade but I would guess they don't bounce off walls with the predictability and force that is present in many shooters....

[Otleaz]

On balance - I'm with the pro's. There is a counter to a cooked grenade - don't make yourself a target - don't stand still in a place you can get hit.


I can't see that being very viable. Being mobile outside of bum rushing the enemy wouldn't work, and the nature of objective based games makes it very hard to not make yourself a target.

[Kipper]

I said don't stand still in a place you can get hit, not don't stand still at all - get up high, use walls and windows for protection, team mates to over watch and cut off angles etc. Try and stop the grenade being thrown at all, either by not being a good target or not letting the thrower get close enough and still be alive.

[Noctis]

They stated at an early gameplay video that granades will have 2 modes. Impact and x seconds delay.

Proofs? Go watch the streams -_-

[Salad Snake]

I hope it is in since BF3 doesnt have it. One of many casualisations of FPS nowadays... I didnt like it because grenades were only good to get someone out of their cover, not kill them right away.

Cooked grenades make sense, but it is bad game design. It really rears its head with objective based games like PS2 will be.

If you know where your enemy will be, a cooked grenade is a guaranteed instantaneous kill. Response and counter gameplay is healthy gameplay. Being killed without a chance to fight back should be rare.

This. Regardless of your opinion of BF3, the fact that you couldn't cook grenades was a rare holding out of tactics over deathmatching on the part of DICE (not to mention a harkening to the other Battlefields, which all did not have cooking). CoD is full of kiddies running around with cooked nades and 1.5 second semtex.

[Phisionary]

rediculous. you try throwing .5-1 kg 50 meters and tell me how you do:)
in the danish army the distance to throw is 25 meters with a standard sized danish handgrenade (and we have the biggest and most powerful handgrenades in europe).

fair enough.

I found a rock that weighed 1.87 lbs (~3/4 kg) and tossed it over my house. I was able to easily clear the AC on the roof, and paced out the distance from the where I stood to the dent in the lawn at first impact, at exactly 45 paces. so, maybe 40m. As reference, I have a hollowed out surplus pineapple nade that weighs 1.41 lbs.

So, 50m seems fair estimate. I'm convinced I could manage it (@ 1kg) if I really put my weight behind a throw.

[Fanglord]

Cooked grenades make sense, but it is bad game design. It really rears its head with objective based games like PS2 will be.

If you know where your enemy will be, a cooked grenade is a guaranteed instantaneous kill. Response and counter gameplay is healthy gameplay. Being killed without a chance to fight back should be rare.

I kinda disagree, I know its a simple mechanic but there's a certain knack to getting people with cooked grenades. Takes a bit of skill to know how long to hold and to predict where a moving person will be in relation to the fuse. Watching people use grenades in moderny type shooters its surprising how many people just pull the pin and throw.

[rodohk]

People are saying in real life not all timers are exactly the same. Yes this is true so why not include this have the grenades be a random time within a set range and allow cooking. IMO not being able to cook a nade is lame and annoying, but so is insta death from one. So semi random timer plus being able to cook it that adds some risk to cooking but keeps the strategy of cooking.

[Phisionary]

Cooked grenades make sense, but it is bad game design. It really rears its head with objective based games like PS2 will be.

If you know where your enemy will be, a cooked grenade is a guaranteed instantaneous kill. Response and counter gameplay is healthy gameplay. Being killed without a chance to fight back should be rare.

That's ridiculous. It might be bad level design. It might be bad tactics (...so don't stand in such a grenadeable position). But it's not bad game design. It's realistic, it's authentic, and it makes sense. I don't know what non-'objective based' games I must be playing, but when I capture the objective in them, it's usually assisted by good use of grenades. It's a game skill like any other, from mastering gun response and recoil to estimating bullet drop on cannon rounds. Likewise, the decision to put away ones primary weapon (in many games at least) and stand there like a wanker with a grenade in hand, waiting for the timer to be Juuuuust right. Oops, the guy is already around the corner and he shot me. Oops, I didn't run fast enough and the timer is out. Oops, it turns out no-one was there and I just wasted my grenade. These are tactical decisions, and important to gameplay. None is a guaranteed kill. Not even in blacklight retribution, with a sanctioned wallhack game mechanic, is cooking your nade a guaranteed kill. MAYBE that's why that game has the nerfiness I described (earlier in the thread), I don't know. And, if grenades take resources, players wont want to waste them. If they manage to predict you so well that they can guarantee kill you, you are too predictable.

On another topic, I think the player should be allowed to pick up thrown grenades. I got used to this in DOD:S, and now every time I see a nade in-game, I want to grab it. It allows some defense against grenades, it allows positively epic return throws in battle :eek:, it rewards players for learning the cooking mechanism, and even if you pick up a thrown nade in the middle of a pack of teammates, it can be good. If there is some damage reduction benefit from being team-held (real-world analog: a guy throws himself onto a soon-to-explode grenade, right?), then it provides a concrete benefit. alternatively, you are denying the enemy a mass of grenade kills. I remember once getting automatically insta-kicked because I picked up a thrown grenade in the middle of 4 teammates with FF on. It was sort of hilarious, but I was generally glad the other teams' guy didn't get the credit on a quintuple-kill.

Finally, any developer of weapons, modern or future, who allows more than 1/10 second variation in short-duration explosive timers, should be shot. Random timer variation is not acceptable.

[ThermalReaper]

Just put them in a boiling pot of water.

[Sifer2]

At E3 the grenades looked like quick nades similar to Halo/CoD where you hit the button and the guy just throws it immediately. So no cooking plus being able to spam them instantly. Hopefully i'm wrong though an you have to switch to it then pull the pin an throw. I prefer that so you have to make a decision of when to throw a grenade as it leaves you vulnerable for a bit. Cooking also leaves you vulnerable for longer so I think its a fair trade off for having a better chance of blowing up the target before they can react.

[Otleaz]

Likewise, the decision to put away ones primary weapon (in many games at least) and stand there like a wanker with a grenade in hand, waiting for the timer to be Juuuuust right. Oops, the guy is already around the corner and he shot me. Oops, I didn't run fast enough and the timer is out. Oops, it turns out no-one was there and I just wasted my grenade. These are tactical decisions, and important to gameplay. None is a guaranteed kill.

I'm not convinced. What you describe are blunders an inexperienced player would run into by not reading the situation properly, and would not common for someone who has a feel for the pace of the game.

[Liwen Diamond]

Considering grenades cost ressources, any solider at a given time as a very limited supply of them ready and are very limited in range compared to rocket launchers, tank shells, air to ground missiles and all the other explosive weapons we have available that explode instantly on contact, I'm thinking the argument that they should not be cookable for fear of making them overpowered is a bit nonsensical...

This is a endless war with thousands of people simultenously out there to kill you in the process of gaining territory by capturing clearly identified objectives. You are going to have loads and loads of unavoidable grim deaths defending and assaulting said objectives, and I for one believe that grenades should get the love they deserve. Make them cookable, allow us to throw them via a dedicated button that doesn't involve having to holster my gun for several seconds, unless I'm cooking them and please give us as much customization on them as we get on other weapons. I want to be able to increase throw distance at the cost of damage or explosion radius. I want to increase damage and explosion radius at the cost of range or the ability to carry as many as I normally would. I want some that do EMPs. I want flash nades. I want flying homing ones that can be attached on aircrafts if not shoot out of the sky or outrun. Go wild with them :P. They are as many possible types and applications to grenades as they are for guns, vehicules and utility belt items.

I've always been impressed by myself and other people getting skillful awesome kills out of their grenades. I would never want to be anywhere close of one in real life, even with the pin still in it, but in videos games I like the added element of variety and tension of having to deal with them and having them as a tool in my asernal.

[SztEltviz]

People are saying in real life not all timers are exactly the same. Yes this is true so why not include this have the grenades be a random time within a set range and allow cooking. IMO not being able to cook a nade is lame and annoying, but so is insta death from one. So semi random timer plus being able to cook it that adds some risk to cooking but keeps the strategy of cooking.

This.

After a suicide with a few teamkill, because a short fuse, they will learn not to cook :)

[Kipper]

Hmm, death by random number generator doesn't sound like a good gameplay mechanic to me.

The argument against cooking grenades should be that they have to be selected, and held, at the expense of holding a gun, rather than insta-thrown. Thus you take a risk in doing it because you're defenceless.

Even if you argue that you could still hold a gun while doing that, you could restrict people to hip-fire or otherwise reduce their accuracy so that personal defence is still compromised.

...and of course, Grenades will cost resources and hopefully take some time to resupply, so they will not be spammable.

[Carnage]

I would suspect as with most of the PS2 Equipment, you will be able to up/down/side-grade your nades to whatever configuration you choose... I can see most of the basic styles making it into the game, Sticky, Proximity, Contact and Timed... who knows what else there will be... I heard there will be a 'vampire-like' nade that will suck HP from close enemy before detonating with a force equivalent to a ratio of that HP...

I see no issue with cooked nades, I find them quite useful, with some skill you can master the 'explodes next to enemy face in mid air tactic' with great results.

and of cause if your holding down a key waiting for the timer for a few seconds, you cannot shoot with a weapon.

[Salad Snake]

That's ridiculous. It might be bad level design. It might be bad tactics (...so don't stand in such a grenadeable position). But it's not bad game design. It's realistic, it's authentic, and it makes sense.

Not to say that I don't often enjoy those elements, but games are not just about realism and authenticness. To talk about game design one must realize what any sort of game really is; a physical or (in the case of video games) mental exercise that produces entertainment by offering reward and punishment for certain behaviors, typically ones that are difficult to replicate on demand but can be improved upon (like shooting a basketball more effectively or aiming more accurately with a rifle) that are called skills.

Cooked grenades can be poor game design for the same reason a 1-shot bodyshot kill can be poor game design; because it offers an overly frustrating experience to the victim due to receiving a nigh-instantaneous death seemingly at random that can happen quite often without warning because it's easier to pick up than, say, a bolt-action headshot. There is no initial negative feedback, like you would have if you had simply been gunned down. There's no retaliation, no real engagement with the victim. One moment you're fine and the next you're dead. So looking at the mechanic's potential to entertain the player and weighing it out with how much potential it has to frustrate him/her instead, I would say that allowing grenades to be cooked ultimately weighs in heavier on the later side of the scale.



That said, due to the fact that most of the combat in this game won't be intensely CQC and mainly happens with combined foot and vehicle components I don't really care whether they're cookable or not. I'm just posting to say that cooked grenades CAN be bad game design, especially if your game does happen to have a lot of CQC (such as a more deathmatch-y game), and explaining why that is so.